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Special relationship: the British right’s appeasement of Donald Trump – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited January 2021 in General
Special relationship: the British right’s appeasement of Donald Trump – politicalbetting.com

Barring a much bloodier insurrection than the one mounted two weeks ago, Joe Biden will assume the presidency of the United States on Wednesday.  Where does that leave the UK?

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    First
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Newcastle.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,638
    Yawn
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    First Newcastle Yawn, the name of my new UK Bank.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    I suspect signing a trade deal with the yanks was low in the priority of leave voters in Bolsover.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    First Newcastle Yawn, the name of my new UK Bank.

    Motto: 'Sleep And Grow Rich'.
  • Excellent piece. Brexit's glory days - Theresa's effigy being erected on the cliffs of Dover, the Trump victory, Nigel fingered as a possible trade negotiator or even UK ambassador in Washington - seem like a lifetime ago. In the cold light of day Brexit just seems dreary and pointless.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    I don't think the Yanks are terribly interested in trade deals. Apart from NAFTA they seem quite keen to avoid them, seeing the size of their domestic economy as more important than exports.

    Apart from Agricultural goods, which we seem keen to keep out, their exports are heavily tech, and they seem to be flogging that like hotcakes without any deal, so why bother?
  • John Major's government dug for dirt on Bill Clinton. Bush lost.
  • Still 1.01 for Trump to leave office in 2021 btw.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Leon said:

    Oh God, It's The Meeks

    It would be a good name for a very bad sitcom based on PB

    Maybe 'The Meeks Will Inherit The Earth'?

    Though we'd have to marry him off to Charles PDQ to be sure.
  • Did anything come of the evacuation of the Capitol building earlier today? False alarm?
  • Fishing said:

    The British government will of course do its best to get on with the next President, as it did with his predecessor and as it will do with his successor. Biden is a career politician - he'll recognise insincere flattery when he sees it.

    On a large number of areas, from Iran to climate change, Johnson has far more in common with Biden than he did with Trump, despite the traditional links between the Conservatives and the Republicans.

    Trump is not a traditional Republican.

    The traditional Republicans, the ones the British are closer to like the Californian Republicans, are an increasing ostracised minority.

    That is why it is a shrinking minority on the hard right that can relate to Trumpian Republicans.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    I just spent an hour on a business call with three Americans from the religious right. We mostly stuck to business but whenever we veered off topic, the conversation quickly became very surreal.
  • Anyway , I have decided to take an early night and wish all posters a pleasant nights rest
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    On one hand it's time to make the peace, hold out olive branches and all that, on the other...

    LEAVERS, LEAVERS, LEAVERS!!!!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    I don't think the Yanks are terribly interested in trade deals. Apart from NAFTA they seem quite keen to avoid them, seeing the size of their domestic economy as more important than exports.

    Apart from Agricultural goods, which we seem keen to keep out, their exports are heavily tech, and they seem to be flogging that like hotcakes without any deal, so why bother?

    OTOH America is a fast declining power, relatively. The FT today has a piece (£££) on how China is surging past America, despite Covid. China will grow 8% this year, America 3.5%. The sorpasso is coming.

    Part of this is trade. Out of 190 countries examined, 128 do more trade with China than with America. This matters. Trade means leverage. Sure, America is big enough to go it alone, and will never be vanquished, but it will lose its dwindling supremacy even faster if it does try isolationism.

    Biden is a president of an America that, for the first time in 80 years, needs more friends and allies, if it wants to retain mere equality with China, rather than yield, wearily, to outright inferiority.

    The Storming of the Capitol just adds to this sense of American slippage.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,174
    edited January 2021
  • Scott_xP said:
    Polly Toynbee doesn't like Brexit?! Please, tell me it's not true!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    edited January 2021
    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks less so.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Scott_xP said:
    You're having to resort to Polly-frickin'-Toynbee now? That barrel is naught but a bulbous cylinder...
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I don't think the Yanks are terribly interested in trade deals. Apart from NAFTA they seem quite keen to avoid them, seeing the size of their domestic economy as more important than exports.

    Apart from Agricultural goods, which we seem keen to keep out, their exports are heavily tech, and they seem to be flogging that like hotcakes without any deal, so why bother?

    OTOH America is a fast declining power, relatively. The FT today has a piece (£££) on how China is surging past America, despite Covid. China will grow 8% this year, America 3.5%. The sorpasso is coming.

    Part of this is trade. Out of 190 countries examined, 128 do more trade with China than with America. This matters. Trade means leverage. Sure, America is big enough to go it alone, and will never be vanquished, but it will lose its dwindling supremacy even faster if it does try isolationism.

    Biden is a president of an America that, for the first time in 80 years, needs more friends and allies, if it wants to retain mere equality with China, rather than yield, wearily, to outright inferiority.

    The Storming of the Capitol just adds to this sense of American slippage.

    Declinism
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I don't think the Yanks are terribly interested in trade deals. Apart from NAFTA they seem quite keen to avoid them, seeing the size of their domestic economy as more important than exports.

    Apart from Agricultural goods, which we seem keen to keep out, their exports are heavily tech, and they seem to be flogging that like hotcakes without any deal, so why bother?

    OTOH America is a fast declining power, relatively. The FT today has a piece (£££) on how China is surging past America, despite Covid. China will grow 8% this year, America 3.5%. The sorpasso is coming.

    Part of this is trade. Out of 190 countries examined, 128 do more trade with China than with America. This matters. Trade means leverage. Sure, America is big enough to go it alone, and will never be vanquished, but it will lose its dwindling supremacy even faster if it does try isolationism.

    Biden is a president of an America that, for the first time in 80 years, needs more friends and allies, if it wants to retain mere equality with China, rather than yield, wearily, to outright inferiority.

    The Storming of the Capitol just adds to this sense of American slippage.

    Declinism
    Facts
  • Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,322
    edited January 2021

    Scott_xP said:
    Polly Toynbee doesn't like Brexit?! Please, tell me it's not true!
    John Redwood doesn't like it either.
    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1351230020392517632
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    edited January 2021

    Fishing said:

    The British government will of course do its best to get on with the next President, as it did with his predecessor and as it will do with his successor. Biden is a career politician - he'll recognise insincere flattery when he sees it.

    On a large number of areas, from Iran to climate change, Johnson has far more in common with Biden than he did with Trump, despite the traditional links between the Conservatives and the Republicans.

    Trump is not a traditional Republican.

    The traditional Republicans, the ones the British are closer to like the Californian Republicans, are an increasing ostracised minority.

    That is why it is a shrinking minority on the hard right that can relate to Trumpian Republicans.
    It depends what you mean by traditional Republican, of course. American political parties are very different from the European ones - they don't have official party programmes, their discipline is much weaker, they represent a much more diverse society and they are federations of state organisations, not national ones. So I don't really buy into the notion of a traditional Republican as opposed to Trump.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2021
    As I have got older, so muchof the music and comedy I used to consider exciting and edgy I now find quite cringe worthily anti establishment, and I like some of the things this Niall Gooch says.. but fuck me

    https://twitter.com/niall_gooch/status/1351289407987453958?s=20
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    I don't think the Yanks are terribly interested in trade deals. Apart from NAFTA they seem quite keen to avoid them, seeing the size of their domestic economy as more important than exports.

    Apart from Agricultural goods, which we seem keen to keep out, their exports are heavily tech, and they seem to be flogging that like hotcakes without any deal, so why bother?

    OTOH America is a fast declining power, relatively. The FT today has a piece (£££) on how China is surging past America, despite Covid. China will grow 8% this year, America 3.5%. The sorpasso is coming.

    Part of this is trade. Out of 190 countries examined, 128 do more trade with China than with America. This matters. Trade means leverage. Sure, America is big enough to go it alone, and will never be vanquished, but it will lose its dwindling supremacy even faster if it does try isolationism.

    Biden is a president of an America that, for the first time in 80 years, needs more friends and allies, if it wants to retain mere equality with China, rather than yield, wearily, to outright inferiority.

    The Storming of the Capitol just adds to this sense of American slippage.

    Declinism
    Facts
    Better than antisemitism, I guess
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Hilarious.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Very good header. It ought to have been hilarious watching the Brexiteers extricating their tongues from Trump's backside but it wasn't. Too embarrassing for that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    edited January 2021

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Our second peak looks more in line with the USA though 25-44 is much lower. Our eldest were hit incredibly hard in the first wave.
  • Roger said:

    Very good header. It ought to have been hilarious watching the Brexiteers extricating their tongues from Trump's backside but it wasn't. Too embarrassing for that.

    The header's merely a net... look below to see the incredible haul. Masterful work from Meeks.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Scott_xP said:
    It is not for the French or EU to reduce border controls. We chose 3rd nation status, and it would be wrong of them to reduce our sovereignty.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    America is still considerably fatter.

    Also: their terrible health system must be a factor
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    I believe only Mexico is fatter.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Scott_xP said:
    Polly Toynbee doesn't like Brexit?! Please, tell me it's not true!
    John Redwood doesn't like it either.
    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1351230020392517632
    Why on earth did he sign up to the oven ready deal then?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929
    This is one of the best book reviews ever:

    https://slate.com/culture/2021/01/my-antifa-lover-review-ahhh.html

    The book is called "My Antifa Lover". And yes, it's as bad as it sounds.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Polly Toynbee doesn't like Brexit?! Please, tell me it's not true!
    John Redwood doesn't like it either.
    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1351230020392517632
    Yeah, he obviously hates it. He could be talking about you and Scott here
    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1347908587851546626?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    rcs1000 said:

    This is one of the best book reviews ever:

    https://slate.com/culture/2021/01/my-antifa-lover-review-ahhh.html

    The book is called "My Antifa Lover". And yes, it's as bad as it sounds.


    After encountering him at a non-violent burning down of a federal building she can’t tell what is hotter, the fire or her feelings developing for him.” This description raises some questions. Primarily, how exactly does one “non-violently” burn down a federal building


    LOL!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
  • Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    Something close to Germany's age guessing technique?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929
    Fishing said:

    I just spent an hour on a business call with three Americans from the religious right. We mostly stuck to business but whenever we veered off topic, the conversation quickly became very surreal.

    I actually find the Religious Right broadly OK.

    Sure, they care a lot more about abortion than I do, but most of them were never particularly keen on Trump. He was a tool who gave them the judges they craved.

    Now, he's just a tool.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Maybe it is just an effect of the axes and shapes of the curves, and the proportions (apart from the first wave peak) aren't very different.

    One of my junior doctors lost an aunt this week, aged 58, with no underlying conditions apart from being Sikh. He has a socially distanced funeral next week.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,255

    Scott_xP said:
    Fewer Irish delivery lorries wearing out and clogging up our roads?

    Oh noes.. How will we survive?
    Perhap the British could dig the Manchester Ship Canal a little longer, wider and deeper to enable Irish trade.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    Get Al Murray Pub Landlord to decide based on name?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    FPT - I'd concede that there are challenges with the new Brexit deal in smoothing GB/NI trade - with both the EU and UK agreeing more work needs to be done there - and on the export and import of fresh meat and fish, where there are challenges with IT systems, customs agents, Covid-19 and the health certification process, with some rumours of "work to rule" on the French side, but on wine I very much doubt there will be a problem.

    I've found new world wines easy to get hold of, more competitively priced and of better quality for some time.
  • Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks less so.

    There doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile these excess death figures with the official Covid death figures, even when you account for relative population sizes.

    American excess deaths looking at that chart should massive exceed British ones proportionately yet our death toll is supposedly worse? I don't believe it. If our excess deaths were to the scale of American ones then we would have had 2k-3k excess deaths each interval through the summer but instead it was negligible or in the hundreds.

    I suspect that when all is said and done the official death tolls used in tables at the moment as a proportion of excess deaths will vary wildly between countries.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate
    It always amuses me: that Australians and New Zealanders, these famous sporting nations, are even fatter than the slothful Brits
  • Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Our second peak looks more in line with the USA though 25-44 is much lower. Our eldest were hit incredibly hard in the first wave.
    That was roughly my take as well. The graphs seem to show broadly similar ratios between the age groups for each country.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851

    Roger said:

    Very good header. It ought to have been hilarious watching the Brexiteers extricating their tongues from Trump's backside but it wasn't. Too embarrassing for that.

    The header's merely a net... look below to see the incredible haul. Masterful work from Meeks.
    Yes it is. I was smiling as I was reading but then you remember that it's a true story and this is our current leadersip and laughing seems inappropriate
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Well that's not helpful - what's the solution, not jab them? We're already telling people not to immediately relax just because people are getting vaccinated.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    Could using mosques rather skew the gender balance?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    isam said:

    As I have got older, so muchof the music and comedy I used to consider exciting and edgy I now find quite cringe worthily anti establishment, and I like some of the things this Niall Gooch says.. but fuck me

    https://twitter.com/niall_gooch/status/1351289407987453958?s=20

    I'm curious about the inauguration ceremonies. Even though it is not a coronation I can understand a certain level of pagentry being appropriate for the occasion, but I presume they were not always quite so elaborate with peoples' favourite pop stars and the like, so who really started the trend?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate
    It always amuses me: that Australians and New Zealanders, these famous sporting nations, are even fatter than the slothful Brits
    The top 10 are all polynesian countries. Those genes that helped their ancestors survive 1,000 mile trips across uncharted oceans are a big disadvantage now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Absolute nonsense on stilts from Mr Meeks who has been driven mad by Brexit.

    Yes Johnson was right to call Trump "stupefyingly ignorant", but then the US public somehow elected him President and our politicians had to deal with him. Biden understands that, he's not a pettyminded ignorant partisan hack out for revenge because his side were rejected once.

    Mr Meeks approaches the entire thing from his "oh woe is Brexit" viewpoint and expects America to grind an axe for him. That's not Biden.

    Yes Biden is a career machine politician and as a career machine politician Biden's priority is to put the Trump MAGA madness behind him.

    Boris prompty recognised and congratulated Biden on winning and they've been talking together on their priorities since. Biden reciprocated by giving Boris the customary first telephone call after Canada. Biden and Boris want to reset politics back to normal post Trump. They want to deal with climate change. They want to deal with China. They want to work together and they will do, petty poisoning the well because of photos from years ago is the kind of ludicrous sad nonsense that Biden won't have time to deal with.

    I knew who'd written the article just from the headline.

    I read similar takes just after Biden was elected about how he'd call Britain last, and only then to give Boris a bollocking, which he'd have to beg for.
  • Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...

    BBC News - Covid vaccine: Health minister denies jabs being held back
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55704017
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Yawn

    Perhaps if you woke up then. It might help.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    Difficult to disagree with any of that - it's more the idea any race group should be "prioritied" that sticks in the throat.

    I mean if we're going to go along that route with risk profiles, men should probably be getting the jab before women....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362
    Leon said:

    Oh God, It's The Meeks

    It would be a good name for a very bad sitcom based on PB

    They inherit a property in Little Dunny on the Wold. Much hilarity ensues...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Roger said:

    Very good header. It ought to have been hilarious watching the Brexiteers extricating their tongues from Trump's backside but it wasn't. Too embarrassing for that.

    The header's merely a net... look below to see the incredible haul. Masterful work from Meeks.
    The echo chamber doesn't like the header though. As you say "masterful work".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    That's fine, of course. IF BAMEs (how I hate that acronym) naturally fall, disproportionately, in the higher priority groups, due to medical risk, then, of course, go for it. Immunize them. We are all Brits: just jab us all, fairly, according to the science.

    But the headline seems to suggest BAME folk should be prioritised JUST for being BAME. Which to me seems morally wrong as well as undo-able, unless you act like the pre-apartheid South African police.

    Perhaps the headline has it wrong. This is not unknown.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited January 2021
    I know the story does clarify about a targeted publicity campaign as well, but if there is scepticism among specific groups as the story says then targeting them for vaccination may be difficult, as it isn't necessarily getting it to them that is the problem.
  • kle4 said:

    Well that's not helpful - what's the solution, not jab them? We're already telling people not to immediately relax just because people are getting vaccinated.
    Indeed.

    And perhaps plays a part in delaying the second dose - "you're not fully safe yet so don't take risks".

    Having some people with two doses and others with none would, I think, lead to social cohesion problems and widespread ignoring of restrictions by the young.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    Could using mosques rather skew the gender balance?
    Men are at more risk...

    But it might percolate down through the communities too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks less so.

    There doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile these excess death figures with the official Covid death figures, even when you account for relative population sizes.

    American excess deaths looking at that chart should massive exceed British ones proportionately yet our death toll is supposedly worse? I don't believe it. If our excess deaths were to the scale of American ones then we would have had 2k-3k excess deaths each interval through the summer but instead it was negligible or in the hundreds.

    I suspect that when all is said and done the official death tolls used in tables at the moment as a proportion of excess deaths will vary wildly between countries.
    Do the US figures use the same methodology as ours?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Absolute nonsense on stilts from Mr Meeks who has been driven mad by Brexit.

    Yes Johnson was right to call Trump "stupefyingly ignorant", but then the US public somehow elected him President and our politicians had to deal with him. Biden understands that, he's not a pettyminded ignorant partisan hack out for revenge because his side were rejected once.

    Mr Meeks approaches the entire thing from his "oh woe is Brexit" viewpoint and expects America to grind an axe for him. That's not Biden.

    Yes Biden is a career machine politician and as a career machine politician Biden's priority is to put the Trump MAGA madness behind him.

    Boris prompty recognised and congratulated Biden on winning and they've been talking together on their priorities since. Biden reciprocated by giving Boris the customary first telephone call after Canada. Biden and Boris want to reset politics back to normal post Trump. They want to deal with climate change. They want to deal with China. They want to work together and they will do, petty poisoning the well because of photos from years ago is the kind of ludicrous sad nonsense that Biden won't have time to deal with.

    I knew who'd written the article just from the headline.

    I read similar takes just after Biden was elected about how he'd call Britain last, and only then to give Boris a bollocking, which he'd have to beg for.
    Biden's a professional. I imagine he doles out his bollockings with care so as not to waste them not overindulge his personal whims.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362
    kle4 said:

    Well that's not helpful - what's the solution, not jab them? We're already telling people not to immediately relax just because people are getting vaccinated.
    More to the point, why is Josh Widdecombe looking at a petri dish?

    Does he want to become PM one day?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    Difficult to disagree with any of that - it's more the idea any race group should be "prioritied" that sticks in the throat.

    I mean if we're going to go along that route with risk profiles, men should probably be getting the jab before women....
    It's curious though. We can't prioritise on race or gender but we can on age?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited January 2021
    This is like defund the police? Where some claim they don't actually mean defund the police?

    https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1351236031065038848?s=19
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate
    It always amuses me: that Australians and New Zealanders, these famous sporting nations, are even fatter than the slothful Brits
    The top 10 are all polynesian countries. Those genes that helped their ancestors survive 1,000 mile trips across uncharted oceans are a big disadvantage now.
    People in the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, etc, are often hideously fat, as the chart shows.

    Too much oil money, too hot to walk, too many air con'd cab rides, equals = a blob
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate
    It always amuses me: that Australians and New Zealanders, these famous sporting nations, are even fatter than the slothful Brits
    Sitting with an esky of beer, and a plate of barbie watching the sport however...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    Rather than patronising stuff like that they'd be better off focussing on those without English as a first language, higher risk groups - which medically can include some specific ethnicities, I understand - higher risk occupations and groups that have cultural aversions to the vaccine.

    But, the Guardian are playing to their base who love it fashionably Woke, and they want the clickbait traffic/reshares from the rest who don't, so they do it. And it works.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate
    It always amuses me: that Australians and New Zealanders, these famous sporting nations, are even fatter than the slothful Brits
    Lots of islander heritage in no, with a huge propensity to be, well huge. Western lifestyle plus poverty has not helped.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    I ran across these two charts earlier on excess deaths, for UK and USA respectively.





    From: https://www.coioshealth.info/amp/two-countries-divided-by-a-common-virus?__twitter_impression=true

    While I can see that in the UK, immunising the over seventies will have a big effect on mortality, in America it looks much less so.

    I wonder why so many more young die of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Obesity?
    Dunno, we're quite fat as a nation too.
    Is true, but (doesn't check facts), isn't the US in a league of its own.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate
    It always amuses me: that Australians and New Zealanders, these famous sporting nations, are even fatter than the slothful Brits
    The top 10 are all polynesian countries. Those genes that helped their ancestors survive 1,000 mile trips across uncharted oceans are a big disadvantage now.
    People in the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, etc, are often hideously fat, as the chart shows.

    Too much oil money, too hot to walk, too many air con'd cab rides, equals = a blob
    50% of Saudi males have diabetes. The prophet says dates are a gift from Allah...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    Difficult to disagree with any of that - it's more the idea any race group should be "prioritied" that sticks in the throat.

    I mean if we're going to go along that route with risk profiles, men should probably be getting the jab before women....
    It's curious though. We can't prioritise on race or gender but we can on age?
    Age is not a fiction. Not a "social construct". You just have to look at birth certificate. Age is a fact.

    Race is much more contentious. The Left has spent decades telling us race is a fallacy, a biological nonsense. Yet now it matters?

    Either race exists, and we can say who is what, or it does not, in which case this policy is a load of illogical bollocks, and will only annoy people.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    FPT - I'd concede that there are challenges with the new Brexit deal in smoothing GB/NI trade - with both the EU and UK agreeing more work needs to be done there - and on the export and import of fresh meat and fish, where there are challenges with IT systems, customs agents, Covid-19 and the health certification process, with some rumours of "work to rule" on the French side, but on wine I very much doubt there will be a problem.

    I've found new world wines easy to get hold of, more competitively priced and of better quality for some time.

    I don't tend to get involved with these discussions on border trade as they are an exercise in frustration of people making mountains out of molehills, I only commented because I buy wine online a lot and most of it is from Australia or Italy. Neither seem particularly impacted since Brexit, I'm still able to buy everything just the same as I was beforehand. If a company is able to profitably import wine from Australia then they can apply identical procedures for EU wine.
  • kle4 said:

    Well that's not helpful - what's the solution, not jab them? We're already telling people not to immediately relax just because people are getting vaccinated.
    More to the point, why is Josh Widdecombe looking at a petri dish?

    Does he want to become PM one day?
    Maybe it's like the Melanias.

    Wearing a facemask makes it easier for stunt doubles to pass themselves off as the PM.

    Stand by for their wearing to be made compulsory for all time.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    Difficult to disagree with any of that - it's more the idea any race group should be "prioritied" that sticks in the throat.

    I mean if we're going to go along that route with risk profiles, men should probably be getting the jab before women....
    It's curious though. We can't prioritise on race or gender but we can on age?
    And it happens in many areas.

    Why should a pensioner get a cheaper Sunday dinner or sports ticket than someone in their 20s ?

    I realise its a relict of the time when there were proportionally far fewer oldies and they tended to be poorer but its ridiculous now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    On your definition so would diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease be racist. But that'd be uninformative since it would only (disproportionately) affects one particular group of ethnicities, rather than anyone non-White, which BAME generalisations would suggest.

    So we can simply put this down to fashion.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929

    Absolute nonsense on stilts from Mr Meeks who has been driven mad by Brexit.

    Yes Johnson was right to call Trump "stupefyingly ignorant", but then the US public somehow elected him President and our politicians had to deal with him. Biden understands that, he's not a pettyminded ignorant partisan hack out for revenge because his side were rejected once.

    Mr Meeks approaches the entire thing from his "oh woe is Brexit" viewpoint and expects America to grind an axe for him. That's not Biden.

    Yes Biden is a career machine politician and as a career machine politician Biden's priority is to put the Trump MAGA madness behind him.

    Boris prompty recognised and congratulated Biden on winning and they've been talking together on their priorities since. Biden reciprocated by giving Boris the customary first telephone call after Canada. Biden and Boris want to reset politics back to normal post Trump. They want to deal with climate change. They want to deal with China. They want to work together and they will do, petty poisoning the well because of photos from years ago is the kind of ludicrous sad nonsense that Biden won't have time to deal with.

    I knew who'd written the article just from the headline.

    I read similar takes just after Biden was elected about how he'd call Britain last, and only then to give Boris a bollocking, which he'd have to beg for.
    Actually, I can kind of imagine Johnson asking for a bollocking, while purring "Oh Biden... put the boot in... pleeeaasse."

    Now I can't get that image out of my mind.

    Thanks @Casino_Royale. I now don't know how I will sleep this evening.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Who knew that quoting some Tory leaders’ recent observations would enrage Tory posters so ?
    And it’s all apparently because Alastair is deranged.
  • Shoppers (may) face online sales tax to pay off Covid-19 debt as Rishi Sunak looks for new ways to plug the financial hole

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9161133/Shoppers-face-online-sales-tax-Rishi-Sunak-looks-pay-huge-Covid-19-debt.html
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,929
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How on earth will they decide who is BAME and thus entitled to "jump the queue"?

    Seriously. A colour chart? Self declaration? An apartheid style "pencil test"? How??
    No, just a matter of being in the top 4 groups due to underlying conditions. Diabetes, heart disease and kidney disease are all more common in British South Asians, but so is anti-vaxxing. There is already a targeting campaign because of this as an issue. Covid certainly seems racist.

    Using mosques as vaccination centres as well as cathedrals might be a useful step.
    Difficult to disagree with any of that - it's more the idea any race group should be "prioritied" that sticks in the throat.

    I mean if we're going to go along that route with risk profiles, men should probably be getting the jab before women....
    It's curious though. We can't prioritise on race or gender but we can on age?
    Age is not a fiction. Not a "social construct". You just have to look at birth certificate. Age is a fact.

    Race is much more contentious. The Left has spent decades telling us race is a fallacy, a biological nonsense. Yet now it matters?

    Either race exists, and we can say who is what, or it does not, in which case this policy is a load of illogical bollocks, and will only annoy people.
    I'm sorry, that's simply not true.

    Age is a social construct, like gender. People should be free to identify as whatever age they like, and should be treated accordingly.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Blimey!

    FBI checking profiles of National Guardsmen protecting Washington. There is a fear that some guarding Biden are loyal to Trump!

    Jon Sopel BBC
  • Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...

    BBC News - Covid vaccine: Health minister denies jabs being held back
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55704017

    From this story,
    Government spokesman said: "The Pfizer vaccine comes in large packs, which cannot be split and must be stored at ultra-low temperatures - at -70C. There are only two centres in Wales where we can keep them at this temperature."

    And my earlier post..

    Re Welsh vaccine rollout; I've just heard from my dad that an old friend of his who runs a medical supplies company, including the UK's largest tissue bank, offered the Welsh government use of his -80C freezers in Pontyclun to help storing the Pfizer vaccine. They have completed ignored his approach.

This discussion has been closed.