And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Sort your reflexive pronouns out.
Don't end a sentence with a preposition.
Now bog off.
The proscription against preposition stranding is a stylistic imprecation from Dryden. There is no grammatical rule in modern English which forbids it. The type of English up with which I will not put, etc.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
Matches the observation that schools are a lot less empty than in March. Employers are being less community-spirited in the extent to which people can childmind at home, because the funding isn't there.
I wonder also if the vaccine good news is being misread. Yes, vaccination is happening, but it's not going to solve the immediate crisis.
I think the fact that it is now winter is the main driver of any difference in outcomes, rather than tinkering at the edges re: garden centres.
My main treat of the week is now a takeaway tuna melt panini at Caffe Nero on a Saturday, and I will be absolutely fuming if the 'hide under the duvet on a public sector furlough' brigade scare the govt into mandating that takeaways be closed. Given I do all the cooking, its more the break than the product! I look forward to it from about Thursday onwards. Quite a difference to trips across Europe buying books, visiting old friends and staying in nice hotels. It is amazing how quickly my life has become so very small.
Twitter claims they plan to end support bubbles.
That really is a dumb idea. The elderly and vulnerable cannot just be left on their own to fend for themselves for weeks on end. Even those who are in reasonable health need some sort of company and someone checking on them. If you bring in such a rule then anyone with any sense or compassion will ignore it. So what is the point?
Jesus fucking christ Richard that's I think the second topic which I absolutely agree with you on.
Can we please get back to Brexit so that we can enliven both our days.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
Matches the observation that schools are a lot less empty than in March. Employers are being less community-spirited in the extent to which people can childmind at home, because the funding isn't there.
I wonder also if the vaccine good news is being misread. Yes, vaccination is happening, but it's not going to solve the immediate crisis.
I think the fact that it is now winter is the main driver of any difference in outcomes, rather than tinkering at the edges re: garden centres.
My main treat of the week is now a takeaway tuna melt panini at Caffe Nero on a Saturday, and I will be absolutely fuming if the 'hide under the duvet on a public sector furlough' brigade scare the govt into mandating that takeaways be closed. Given I do all the cooking, its more the break than the product! I look forward to it from about Thursday onwards. Quite a difference to trips across Europe buying books, visiting old friends and staying in nice hotels. It is amazing how quickly my life has become so very small.
Twitter claims they plan to end support bubbles.
Madness. Quite literally. Have they asked the psychiatric service (already under severe strain) an opinion on plunging millions of single people into complete social isolation (unless they have to physically go to work)?
I totally agree.
Stop trying to control people's lives even more than is already happening, and start focusing on rolling out the vaccine faster....
and Parler's verified citizen approach means a lot of the posts are directly attributable to identifiable people.
Actually this highlights one of the issues with the current attempts to gag these people by removing or limiting these platforms. It won't work.
All they will do is find a platform outside the USA and beyond the ability of US companies and authorities to control. I suspect this has already happened. This means they will continue their discussions and planning unhindered and without any oversight from the US authorities. This is on top of the fact that it gives them the opportunity - falsely of course - to claim the US is suppressing their free speech.
I don't think there is necessarily any answer to this, at least not one that has good outcomes.
Quite. What we’ll end up with is Parler, or something like it, hosted by Russia or China, and out of reach of US authorities.
Banning speech in the USA never ends well for those doing the banning.
With internet providers banning the IP addresses resulting in the whack-a-mole pirate bay games.
With the proliferation of VPNs I am not sure that will have much, if any, impact.
People who can work out how to use a VPN must be like 1% of Parler's current userbase max.
I don't think action against Parler will go that far though.
Looks like it already has. According to the link below Parler is gone.
The immediate cause of that is that their DNS provider (AWS) has suspended the service, and for reasons that aren't entirely clear, most likely total technical incompetence, they haven't moved their DNS to another provider. (If their DNS resolved, they would probably also have no server to point it at until they get their shit together, since that was apparently also on AWS).
That's a far cry from them getting hosting elsewhere (US or non-US) but having the IP address they host with blocked by US ISPs, which would be the step that necessitated a VPN.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
Matches the observation that schools are a lot less empty than in March. Employers are being less community-spirited in the extent to which people can childmind at home, because the funding isn't there.
I wonder also if the vaccine good news is being misread. Yes, vaccination is happening, but it's not going to solve the immediate crisis.
I think the fact that it is now winter is the main driver of any difference in outcomes, rather than tinkering at the edges re: garden centres.
My main treat of the week is now a takeaway tuna melt panini at Caffe Nero on a Saturday, and I will be absolutely fuming if the 'hide under the duvet on a public sector furlough' brigade scare the govt into mandating that takeaways be closed. Given I do all the cooking, its more the break than the product! I look forward to it from about Thursday onwards. Quite a difference to trips across Europe buying books, visiting old friends and staying in nice hotels. It is amazing how quickly my life has become so very small.
Twitter claims they plan to end support bubbles.
That is bonkers. Support bubbles (the proper ones) are vital.
My mother is in one with me and they can fuck right off if they think that will change.
Absolutely.
I don’t think they will or can end support bubbles, because of the terrible effects on mental health. If they do, like you, I will just ignore them
What I fear they might do is end the rule allowing you to meet one other person outside. If they do, that’s my social life gone, so I’ll probably ignore that, too, rather than killing myself out of loneliness
How are they going to police it? Huge areas of the country go days, weeks, without seeing a single cop at the best of times - and not just in the countryside.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Sort your reflexive pronouns out.
Don't end a sentence with a preposition.
Now bog off.
The proscription against preposition stranding is a stylistic imprecation from Dryden. There is no grammatical rule in modern English which forbids it. The type of English up with which I will not put, etc.
Long time lurker here. I wanted to make one point on Lockdown compliance similar to Leon's. In my area of North London 50%+ of our peer Group have had covid. It is extraordinarily difficult to instruct such people to continue to follow lockdown rules when they face little risk themselves and pose little risk to others. This issue will only grow.
The PM wants the G1. Britannia Uber Alles. Rule makers that everyone else will obey.
"No he doesn't" whine the parrots. Erm yes. "Rule makers not rule takers" is putting us on a pedestal. EVERY country obeys rules set by others. What kind of wazzock thinks we are somehow different, above these forriners, better than all of them?
Bollocks.
No country obey's rules are forced set by others apart from supplicants. America doesn't obey rules set by France. Canada doesn't obey rules set by Germany. Japan doesn't obey rules set by China.
"Ah but if I want to trade with France I need to meet French rules" you cry - yes of course you do. Because that now is de jure French rules that apply in France. No s**t Sherlock. Doesn't mean the French rules apply to the UK, just that someone who wants to trade needs to meet the relevant rules - if you don't want to meet the relevant rules then don't trade. Your choice.
"Ah but what about NATO" you cry. NATO is a common and fixed set of rules we ourselves set when we choose to be members. The rules can't be changed by a majority vote without us.
The only exception I can think of is the UNSC but we are veto members of that.
Bollocks back at you. This country government to set the rules for how we trade and have other countries obey us. Thats literally what the Johnson and May governments have been saying for years. That most of the people out there voting for Brexit don't have a clue how things work doesn't matter, its been wall to wall jingoism. What should have been funnier was that the politicians doing the deal don't know how things work either.
Which is why the likes of Andrea Leadsome get rolled out in the media to tell the ex head of the WTO that he is wrong about the WTO. Don't like the EU telling us what to do? Vote Brexit! Then we can go WTO and tell other people what to do. Rule sodding Britannia and all that.
Rule Makers, not Rule Takers. That every country is a rule taker isn't the issue. Its that they have whipped the ill-informed into believe it.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
Matches the observation that schools are a lot less empty than in March. Employers are being less community-spirited in the extent to which people can childmind at home, because the funding isn't there.
I wonder also if the vaccine good news is being misread. Yes, vaccination is happening, but it's not going to solve the immediate crisis.
I think the fact that it is now winter is the main driver of any difference in outcomes, rather than tinkering at the edges re: garden centres.
My main treat of the week is now a takeaway tuna melt panini at Caffe Nero on a Saturday, and I will be absolutely fuming if the 'hide under the duvet on a public sector furlough' brigade scare the govt into mandating that takeaways be closed. Given I do all the cooking, its more the break than the product! I look forward to it from about Thursday onwards. Quite a difference to trips across Europe buying books, visiting old friends and staying in nice hotels. It is amazing how quickly my life has become so very small.
Twitter claims they plan to end support bubbles.
That is bonkers. Support bubbles (the proper ones) are vital.
My mother is in one with me and they can fuck right off if they think that will change.
Absolutely.
I don’t think they will or can end support bubbles, because of the terrible effects on mental health. If they do, like you, I will just ignore them
What I fear they might do is end the rule allowing you to meet one other person outside. If they do, that’s my social life gone, so I’ll probably ignore that, too, rather than killing myself out of loneliness
How are they going to police it? Huge areas of the country go days, weeks, without seeing a single cop at the best of times - and not just in the countryside.
Get Derbyshire police to manage the whole country? They seem to be able to pick people up all day long who have gone for a walk or taken the dog out.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Long time lurker here. I wanted to make one point on Lockdown compliance similar to Leon's. In my area of North London 50%+ of our peer Group have had covid. It is extraordinarily difficult to instruct such people to continue to follow lockdown rules when they face little risk themselves and pose little risk to others. This issue will only grow.
Yes, I made this point a week ago in relation to the growing cohort that has been vaccinated.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
In terms of story: Yes clearly.
Fine OK.
But the original point by Ms Batty was about the quality of prose.
Doubt any Tolkien extracts would be held up as an exemplar.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
I wonder if the SCUP will now move for a by-election? She's hogging a place on their List, effectively.
Don't think you can have by elections for list seats, in the event of resignation, retirement etc, the next on the party list gets a shunt up. Ballantyne's already buggered off from the SCons so she's effectively a free agent, shame she didn't go for Alliance4Unity just for the extra laffs.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
In terms of story: Yes clearly.
A good story doesn't make good writing (eg, again, Harry Potter). It is so long since I read LOTR I wouldn't be able to comment but on HP the writing is banal, cliched, repetitive and lacking imagination (as is, for example Dan Brown's, and the 50 Shades books).
Such bad writing means that it is difficult, if you are a teenager or beyond, to get to the story without being put off. I managed 10 pages each of HP, Dan Brown and 50 Shades and trust me for 50 Shades I was really trying to read it for the filth.
As a friend of mine said, when we had just seen Maitresse, which at the time was a big deal S&M-wise but turned out to be v tame and super disappointing - "I came here to be disgusted and I'm disgusted".
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Haha. What.
I believe Jackie Collins and Tom Clancy were also exceedingly popular. Very hard to repeat what they do, too.
Long time lurker here. I wanted to make one point on Lockdown compliance similar to Leon's. In my area of North London 50%+ of our peer Group have had covid. It is extraordinarily difficult to instruct such people to continue to follow lockdown rules when they face little risk themselves and pose little risk to others. This issue will only grow.
Bit concerned with "instruct such people" - leave it to the police I`d say.
You live in a different world to me. I can only think of a couple of people I know round here who has had it. Though I guess there are other who have tested positive but not been poorly.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Yes as I said I didn't comment specifically on LOTR because it was so long since I read it but I remember it being a fantastic book at the time (same with The Hobbit and the Narnia books).
I wonder if the SCUP will now move for a by-election? She's hogging a place on their List, effectively.
Don't think you can have by elections for list seats, in the event of resignation, retirement etc, the next on the party list gets a shunt up. Ballantyne's already buggered off from the SCons so she's effectively a free agent, shame she didn't go for Alliance4Unity just for the extra laffs.
Oh, of course yes - apologies for the cranial eructation. Which makes the SCUP's inactivity even more surprising. Maybe they will act now there is no hope of her returning to the fold. Or are they quietly doing a Wings and splitting the Unionist vote to get extra list MSPs?
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Haha. What.
I believe Jackie Collins and Tom Clancy were also exceedingly popular. Very hard to repeat what they do, too.
Tolkien will be read, revered and remembered for many decades. 99% of writers are forgotten the day they die, or long before, and this is equally true of esteemed literary fiction as it is of best-selling popular fiction.
The first WINNER of the Booker Prize, in 1969, was.... “P. H. Newby”
I can’t remember who said it, some famous novelist I believe, but there is a celebrated adage in publishing: any author is extremely lucky if his book lives longer than the average cat.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
Who decides what is good writing? I think everyone accepts that mere popularity doesn't indicate quality of a work, but when a work is so influential as a result of the effectiveness of its story telling I'm not sure what is gained from snobbery about its, IDK, academic or artistic quality.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
Long time lurker here. I wanted to make one point on Lockdown compliance similar to Leon's. In my area of North London 50%+ of our peer Group have had covid. It is extraordinarily difficult to instruct such people to continue to follow lockdown rules when they face little risk themselves and pose little risk to others. This issue will only grow.
Bit concerned with "instruct such people" - leave it to the police I`d say.
You live in a different world to me. I can only think of a couple of people I know round here who has had it. Though I guess there are other who have tested positive but not been poorly.
1 in 3 in Hackney have had Covid, apparently. All my friends in Hackney say lockdown there has been practically abandoned.
Long time lurker here. I wanted to make one point on Lockdown compliance similar to Leon's. In my area of North London 50%+ of our peer Group have had covid. It is extraordinarily difficult to instruct such people to continue to follow lockdown rules when they face little risk themselves and pose little risk to others. This issue will only grow.
I thought scientific jury was still out on whether those who have had Covid and recovered - or been vaccinated - could still carry the virus and transmit it to others?
Though its true that they face little risk themselves.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Sort your reflexive pronouns out.
Don't end a sentence with a preposition.
Now bog off.
The proscription against preposition stranding is a stylistic imprecation from Dryden. There is no grammatical rule in modern English which forbids it. The type of English up with which I will not put, etc.
Is "routinely wears" a split infinitive?
No, and the rule against split infinitives is pants anyway.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Haha. What.
I believe Jackie Collins and Tom Clancy were also exceedingly popular. Very hard to repeat what they do, too.
Tolkien will be read, revered and remembered for many decades. 99% of writers are forgotten the day they die, or long before, and this is equally true of esteemed literary fiction as it is of best-selling popular fiction.
The first WINNER of the Booker Prize, in 1969, was.... “P. H. Newby”
I can’t remember who said it, some famous novelist I believe, but there is a celebrated adage in publishing: any author is extremely lucky if his book lives longer than the average cat.
I was amazed, some years ago, when Oryx and Crake came out. Here was the first work for a while, from a literary great, an event.
And in the Sunday Times, it duly came in at No.1 on the best seller lists. Having sold a grant total of 3,450 copies. OK this was before The Handmaid's Tale took off on Netflix but even still.
We really don't read as much as we think we do here.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
Why? The insurgents taking hostages was a key part of his plan. Whip up the crowd. Withdraw security. Stop the certification. A hostage crisis. Martial Law.
Next you'll be telling us how they were all Antifa.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Tolkein was a scholar and had an intinsic love of language and his writing shows that. What Rowling has over him is women. HP has a lot of characters, starting with Hermione Granger but not limited to her, that female readers can buy into. With the possible exception of Éowyn, who has a very minor part, there are no women in LOTR for girls to relate to, just demi-goddesses like Galadriel up on a very high pedistal. So JKR has a head start with over half the book buying public.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
Who decides what is good writing? I think everyone accepts that mere popularity doesn't indicate quality of a work, but when a work is so influential as a result of the effectiveness of its story telling I'm not sure what is gained from snobbery about its, IDK, academic or artistic quality.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
Well of course I decide what is good writing. As do you.
And as I have also said I have no recollection of the writing of LOTR beyond it was an amazing, formative book for me.
As for those "officially good books" I'm not so sure they are even a thing. Some stand the test of time, others don't. There is a reason why, say, you can find a new imprint of Portrait of the Artist in bookshops every few years, that said. But god knows what the sales numbers are.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
Totally agree. Trumps the big loser, from the part of this he didn’t control. It was trailed as being a big contentious rally in the capital, same moment congress affirms the votes, the security failure is key to this now, not the rage at Trump that’s sooooo last week.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
Who decides what is good writing? I think everyone accepts that mere popularity doesn't indicate quality of a work, but when a work is so influential as a result of the effectiveness of its story telling I'm not sure what is gained from snobbery about its, IDK, academic or artistic quality.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
LOTR is simply a fantastic story. Its crowning achievement is to invent a wholly new plot, which is usually thought to be impossible. Invading Sauron's lair and doing him in would be commonplace; having to invade it with the pacifistic-looking purpose of throwing a ring into a hole changes the dynamic of the whole story.
Crying out for editing, mind. Why does it take 1,000 pages to get to the Council of Elrond, and what is that hippified bore Tom Bombadil for?
FPT (and other threads) - I must say I find all this "I was right about Trump all along - here's what I said and here's how right I was; here's what you said, and here's how you wrong *you* were. Hahaha." stuff pretty unedifying.
Gloating is one thing but it's worse than that: it's almost as if they're half-pleased Trump has crossed the Rubicon, because they can now be vindicated.
I don't mind admitting I got Trump wrong. I thought he was a windbag who was full of hot air but would ultimately slip away after losing election after blasting off about how he still thought he was right and would come back one day (or one of his acolytes) once the Dems had failed.
I was wrong about that. I am wrong about things all the time. I don't mind admitting that. I'd also say that so is everyone else. There's no such a thing as a Sage who's a perfect predictor of the future all the time.
So, a little more magnanimity and a little less narcissism from those who got it right would be appreciated please.
Hubris can read its ugly head very quickly.
I don't mind people spounting off about how they were right about seeing the threat that Trump posed, if they did (and if their reasoning was right) - as long as they have a similar record of flagging up equivalent threats from elsewhere on the political spectrum too.
There are no equivalent threats in any developed country anywhere else on the political spectrum. There's a genre of journalism where you pretend that there's an equivalence somewhere for the sake of balance, but I don't think it convinces anyone.
Bizarre whataboutery from Herdson. There are some really mad takes from this Trump biz.
It's not whataboutery and it's not bizarre.
The point is about consistency and judgement. Someone who has railed against Trump for years might well have done so because they understood his nature, his methods and his threat. Fair call. Chapeau.
On the other hand, they might have done it because he is a crass boor and aligned to the populist right - neither of which is necessary nor sufficient of themselves (or even together), to point to his true threat to the system and to freedoms and safety.
Where the critic's reasoning is the latter, it's much more likely that (1) they'll have given similar but misguided threats about many other politicians on the right, and seen such predictions go wrong; and (2) not made any predictions of that nature about others who do pose systemic threats but do so from a different angle of attack. The context and the reasoning of the critic is essential to understand whether they actually had good judgement or were simply a stopped clock at the right time.
This is angel-counting guff while the tanks are circling Berlin as far as I’m concerned.
The problem is Trump and the safety of democracy in the USA, not phantoms from “different angles of attack”, whatever they are supposed to be.
If people want to feel smugly vindicated in their antipathy to Trump, more power to their elbow. His anti-democratic instincts may not have been completely obvious but it was clear from the outset that he was happy to whip up hate against minorities, immigrants, the disabled, women etc.
He was always more than “just a crass boor”.
Let me put it this way then. Yes, of course Trump was more than just a crass boor. But how many of those who've said "Trump was always this massive threat" have said the same about, say, Johnson?
An inability (or disinclination) to distinguish between populists and how far they would be prepared to go renders a lot of their analysis worthless if it pronounces them all much of a muchness, when they aren't.
Have just heard Nadhim Zahawi on the radio saying we are allowed out to exercise for 1 hour. Then asking people not to "push against the rules". Yet 1 hour exercise isn't the rule.
With people being arrested for daft things and others openly ignoring the rules this kind of stupid confusion from the government really isn't helpful.
And the really bad thing is that it is focussing on something that is a fringe issue. The reality is that such activity is probably contributing a negligible amount to the spread of the virus.
Things that ought to be addressed:-
1. Why no negative covid tests for travellers from Ireland which is in a very bad position at present? 2. Places of worship - even with social distancing inside they are surely as great a risk as pubs. 3. Who is classified as a key worker. 4. The lack of support for those who have to self-isolate or freelancers or limit the business they can do etc. If people have no support then they will work and this increases the risk of spreading.
3 & 4 are down to Sunak. The situation now is worse than last March and the financial support package therefore needs to be at least as the same as it was then. Not worse. Sunak's miserliness is undermining the health message. And is costing lives.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Well said. I'm bemused by the entire brevity is the only key to great writing idea.
Since fantasy writing has been brought up, I am a tremendous fan of epic fantasy. Game of Thrones has made this much more popular, but Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is my favourite. I'm guessing Mysticrose would hate it - 14 books (3 finished posthumously by a different author from his notes), mostly about 800 pages each, plus spin off books; brevity is not its strong point.
But what Jordan is good at is creating an epic world, in the mould of Tolkien. Hundreds of characters that come alive, dozens of locations spanning a continent that comes alive. Rose would no doubt say it needs an editor and you could probably chop hundreds of pages from each book without losing any of the key plot - but it would lose the elements that flesh out and invest the reader into what is happening.
The government should be telling people to minimise the number of times they enter a food shop. Get home delivery or click and collect whenever you can. Do one trip not three. Only one of you goes to the shop, not the whole family.
Basic stuff, but it can save lives.
As I said at the time, my brother in law reckoned he caught Covid on a supermarket shopping trip, then passed it to his wife and son. That's 3 cases that could have been avoided if he'd done click and collect.
And takeaways should be serving from the doorway, not making folk enter the shop.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Haha. What.
I believe Jackie Collins and Tom Clancy were also exceedingly popular. Very hard to repeat what they do, too.
Tolkien will be read, revered and remembered for many decades. 99% of writers are forgotten the day they die, or long before, and this is equally true of esteemed literary fiction as it is of best-selling popular fiction.
The first WINNER of the Booker Prize, in 1969, was.... “P. H. Newby”
I can’t remember who said it, some famous novelist I believe, but there is a celebrated adage in publishing: any author is extremely lucky if his book lives longer than the average cat.
I was amazed, some years ago, when Oryx and Crake came out. Here was the first work for a while, from a literary great, an event.
And in the Sunday Times, it duly came in at No.1 on the best seller lists. Having sold a grant total of 3,450 copies. OK this was before The Handmaid's Tale took off on Netflix but even still.
We really don't read as much as we think we do here.
We certainly don’t read as much “literary fiction” - the stuff that, I presume, Gardenwalker is referring to. The genre is dying on its arse in terms of sales. Advances are now a fraction of what they were. Very few writers can make a living from it.
Why?
Shorter attention spans. Smartphones. And competition from TV drama, which is now so good it makes many novels look painfully boring. But also this (whisper it): a lot of literary fiction is shit, and barely readable, because it has no story. No plot. And that’s what people want. A GOOD STORY, which is much harder to do than a good paragraph.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Tolkein was a scholar and had an intinsic love of language and his writing shows that. What Rowling has over him is women. HP has a lot of characters, starting with Hermione Granger but not limited to her, that female readers can buy into. With the possible exception of Éowyn, who has a very minor part, there are no women in LOTR for girls to relate to, just demi-goddesses like Galadriel up on a very high pedistal. So JKR has a head start with over half the book buying public.
LOTR is great. I like Tolkien's acceptance that its only fault is that it is too short. If true it would be the exception to prove the rule.
It's not perfect writing. At times it's clunky and sometimes absurdly flowery. The poems and songs are a bit naff. But some of his prose is glorious. His descriptions of landscape are superb. And take a look at his brilliant non-descriptive descriptiveness of Gollum. It's worthy of a study in its own right. He wonderfully portrays 'the creature Gollum' as variously like a frog, a spider, a bony creature, a bird etc. etc.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
LOTR is definitely in the category of a great read for a child or teenager but boring AF for an adult, in my opinion. That doesn't stop it being a great book, BTW, there are plenty of books written for children and young people that I would class as great works of literature. Where the Wild Things Are is a picture book, for instance, but I would say it is a perfect book and a great literary work.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Yes as I said I didn't comment specifically on LOTR because it was so long since I read it but I remember it being a fantastic book at the time (same with The Hobbit and the Narnia books).
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
Who decides what is good writing? I think everyone accepts that mere popularity doesn't indicate quality of a work, but when a work is so influential as a result of the effectiveness of its story telling I'm not sure what is gained from snobbery about its, IDK, academic or artistic quality.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
LOTR is simply a fantastic story. Its crowning achievement is to invent a wholly new plot, which is usually thought to be impossible. Invading Sauron's lair and doing him in would be commonplace; having to invade it with the pacifistic-looking purpose of throwing a ring into a hole changes the dynamic of the whole story.
Crying out for editing, mind. Why does it take 1,000 pages to get to the Council of Elrond, and what is that hippified bore Tom Bombadil for?
The same could be said of Moby Dick and Les Miserables.
Both are a fairly short story with The Mother All Digressions Everytime Anything Happens.
The tiny bit of Bitcoin I had left over (£11) to pay for a service that subsequently stopped is now worth over a hundred quid. Crackers
A few years ago I remembered I had some crypto, Ethereum, that was originally worth about 50 cents. When I checked it had shot up to over $300. Sold it and made some solid spending money. Of course, it's $1000 now...
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Sort your reflexive pronouns out.
Don't end a sentence with a preposition.
Now bog off.
The proscription against preposition stranding is a stylistic imprecation from Dryden. There is no grammatical rule in modern English which forbids it. The type of English up with which I will not put, etc.
Is "routinely wears" a split infinitive?
No, and the rule against split infinitives is pants anyway.
I`m not disagreeing about the "pants" thing, but why isn`t it a split infinitive?
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Well said. I'm bemused by the entire brevity is the only key to great writing idea.
Since fantasy writing has been brought up, I am a tremendous fan of epic fantasy. Game of Thrones has made this much more popular, but Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is my favourite. I'm guessing Mysticrose would hate it - 14 books (3 finished posthumously by a different author from his notes), mostly about 800 pages each, plus spin off books; brevity is not its strong point.
But what Jordan is good at is creating an epic world, in the mould of Tolkien. Hundreds of characters that come alive, dozens of locations spanning a continent that comes alive. Rose would no doubt say it needs an editor and you could probably chop hundreds of pages from each book without losing any of the key plot - but it would lose the elements that flesh out and invest the reader into what is happening.
I'm just reading Eye of the World (one of many multiple times). I find myself often getting book 4 or so (often when I'm on holiday), and then forgetting and then re-starting a year or two later.
The plots and many of the characters in Harry Potter are very derivative, but she really does have a great ear for dialogue.
On Tolkien, I find his imagination very vivid, and better at integrating a physical 'map' of his world into his books than many more literary authors, but not massively intellectually profound.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
Hmm....no, I doubt that.
The death toll could easily have been very much more than it was and but for the actions of the security guards in the chamber itself the number would almost certainly have included Senators and other elected representatives.
Once an insurrection gets out of hand there is no telling where it stops. I don't think any 'machiavellian hand' was in control. I don't think anybody was in control.
Under the first lockdown - where masks were not required - supermarket staff instigated a whole load of rules. External queue lines. Traffic control staff at the door. One way systems. Roaming staff enforcers for the one-way systems. And the rates of assault on supermarket staff rocketed.
This time around punters are bored of it. And need to wear masks. The same people who thought the rules allowed them to threaten and assault staff last time aren't wearing masks now. Imagine the fun* that will happen if tha government decide that the people who have to make people comply with their mixed messaging are the people in Tesco...
Police could probably do a great deal more good infection-wise (than going around harassing picnickers) by stationing a couple of officers in large supermarkets. Though not sure how the supermarkets would feel.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
Who decides what is good writing? I think everyone accepts that mere popularity doesn't indicate quality of a work, but when a work is so influential as a result of the effectiveness of its story telling I'm not sure what is gained from snobbery about its, IDK, academic or artistic quality.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
Well of course I decide what is good writing. As do you.
And as I have also said I have no recollection of the writing of LOTR beyond it was an amazing, formative book for me.
As for those "officially good books" I'm not so sure they are even a thing. Some stand the test of time, others don't. There is a reason why, say, you can find a new imprint of Portrait of the Artist in bookshops every few years, that said. But god knows what the sales numbers are.
Of course there are 'officially good books'. You see it in non-fiction even more, but there's always been the example of a 'this is to look good on the bookshelf but never read' kind of book. I've never read it, but I've heard many people own Ulysses for that reason. Or something grand but too daunting to attempt due to length like War and Peace (I've promise myself I will read it this year).
As for your first sentence, then why are people getting so sniffy if other people say something is good writing if it is accepted it is entirely subjective? I think people tend to operate on a 'I cannot define it, but I know it when I see it' basis, as few object to crapping on Dan Brown's works, but more object to crapping on JK Rowling's (well, until this year anyway now she is a pariah) although plenty of criticism remains.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Well said. I'm bemused by the entire brevity is the only key to great writing idea.
Since fantasy writing has been brought up, I am a tremendous fan of epic fantasy. Game of Thrones has made this much more popular, but Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is my favourite. I'm guessing Mysticrose would hate it - 14 books (3 finished posthumously by a different author from his notes), mostly about 800 pages each, plus spin off books; brevity is not its strong point.
But what Jordan is good at is creating an epic world, in the mould of Tolkien. Hundreds of characters that come alive, dozens of locations spanning a continent that comes alive. Rose would no doubt say it needs an editor and you could probably chop hundreds of pages from each book without losing any of the key plot - but it would lose the elements that flesh out and invest the reader into what is happening.
I think @MystichardlyJKRowlingrose got themselves in a tizzy because they first started saying a thread should be concise which view certainly has merit.
But then LOTR and The Great Gatsby were chucked in to muddy the waters; using LOTR as an example of great literature in a discussion about how less is more is certainly an interesting approach.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
LOTR is definitely in the category of a great read for a child or teenager but boring AF for an adult, in my opinion. That doesn't stop it being a great book, BTW, there are plenty of books written for children and young people that I would class as great works of literature. Where the Wild Things Are is a picture book, for instance, but I would say it is a perfect book and a great literary work.
Most people would have read it as a teen. So it does stick with you, being such a epic story.
Under the first lockdown - where masks were not required - supermarket staff instigated a whole load of rules. External queue lines. Traffic control staff at the door. One way systems. Roaming staff enforcers for the one-way systems. And the rates of assault on supermarket staff rocketed.
This time around punters are bored of it. And need to wear masks. The same people who thought the rules allowed them to threaten and assault staff last time aren't wearing masks now. Imagine the fun* that will happen if tha government decide that the people who have to make people comply with their mixed messaging are the people in Tesco...
Police could probably do a great deal more good infection-wise (than going around harassing picnickers) by stationing a couple of officers in large supermarkets. Though not sure how the supermarkets would feel.
It's very simple to do the thought experiment on how Trumpers were and are so fired up over the election. Take everything you know about the election and imagine Trump actually was the declared winner. It literally would have been stolen from Biden.
Now simply reverse Biden/Trump and the MAGA reality delusion makes perfect sense.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Well said. I'm bemused by the entire brevity is the only key to great writing idea. .
No it's not. But you'd better have a bloody good reason for using 10 words when 1 will do.
I'm lucky to have a great agent, one of the most successful in publishing history. I've learned a lot from him and I read voluminously. I doubt there's anyone on here who has read as many books as I have. That's not bragging just something I've always loved doing. My Oxford don said he'd never come across anyone who had read so much.
The point is that you start to recognise when a writer has got into a mindset where they think verbosity is smart. It's rarely the case. Keep it clean. More is less.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
Who decides what is good writing? I think everyone accepts that mere popularity doesn't indicate quality of a work, but when a work is so influential as a result of the effectiveness of its story telling I'm not sure what is gained from snobbery about its, IDK, academic or artistic quality.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
LOTR is simply a fantastic story. Its crowning achievement is to invent a wholly new plot, which is usually thought to be impossible. Invading Sauron's lair and doing him in would be commonplace; having to invade it with the pacifistic-looking purpose of throwing a ring into a hole changes the dynamic of the whole story.
Crying out for editing, mind. Why does it take 1,000 pages to get to the Council of Elrond, and what is that hippified bore Tom Bombadil for?
The movies, though not perfect, really did make some improvements in that respect. I used to read it about once a year, but it has been quite a while now, and it is more of a slog than it used to be (worth noting that plenty of fantasy stories are far longer than LOTR, but don't necessarily feel it.)
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Sort your reflexive pronouns out.
Don't end a sentence with a preposition.
Now bog off.
The proscription against preposition stranding is a stylistic imprecation from Dryden. There is no grammatical rule in modern English which forbids it. The type of English up with which I will not put, etc.
Is "routinely wears" a split infinitive?
No, and the rule against split infinitives is pants anyway.
I`m not disagreeing about the "pants" thing, but why isn`t it a split infinitive?
Not an infinitive at all. An infinitive is "to love," a split infinitive is "to routinely love."
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
The government reckons at least 12 million people in England have already had Covid. A huge number. Many of them will have been asymptomatic, so won’t know, but many WILL know, from obvious symptoms, from catching it in an infested household, or, of course, from a test. And we have done tens of millions of tests.
Let’s say just half those 12 million KNOW they’ve had Covid and survived. That’s 6 million people who are now, very likely, immune. And every day thousands more are added to this crowd of immune people, through recovery or vaccination.
If I were definitely immune, unable to catch the virus and much less likely to hand it on (especially as time passes), I’d be very tempted to resume a more normal life as well. Meet other immune friends. Have a life. Have sex. Are these the people now going out and about?
Could be. And I’m not sure it’s even moral to keep these people locked indoors, going mental, if there is no more risk to them, and, increasingly, they are no risk to others.
Long time lurker here. I wanted to make one point on Lockdown compliance similar to Leon's. In my area of North London 50%+ of our peer Group have had covid. It is extraordinarily difficult to instruct such people to continue to follow lockdown rules when they face little risk themselves and pose little risk to others. This issue will only grow.
Among 16-25 year olds, either they have had it, or many of their friends have had it & recovered quickly. Rightly or wrongly, it just doesn't look a big deal to many young people anymore.
So, they not going to listen to Hancock blathering on about "Save Grandpa".
After all, what did Gramps ever do for them? He is a greedy, selfish man who denied the benefits he received to younger people.
And -- if pb.com is any guide -- Gramps is going on a skiing holiday as soon as he is vaccinated (first in the queue as usual).
It is simply not right to expect young people to bear pain & loss of opportunity without any reward. Young people are giving & giving & giving -- and getting nothing back.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Tolkein was a scholar and had an intinsic love of language and his writing shows that. What Rowling has over him is women. HP has a lot of characters, starting with Hermione Granger but not limited to her, that female readers can buy into. With the possible exception of Éowyn, who has a very minor part, there are no women in LOTR for girls to relate to, just demi-goddesses like Galadriel up on a very high pedistal. So JKR has a head start with over half the book buying public.
Tolkien is a product of his time with that.
More modern fantasy, even those written by men, has had key female characters or leads for decades now. Roughly half of Jordan's primary characters in the Wheel of Time are women. David Eddings was the author that got me into fantasy when I was a child and he has many female leads. It isn't just modern female authors who include girls or women in their books.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
LOTR is definitely in the category of a great read for a child or teenager but boring AF for an adult, in my opinion. That doesn't stop it being a great book, BTW, there are plenty of books written for children and young people that I would class as great works of literature. Where the Wild Things Are is a picture book, for instance, but I would say it is a perfect book and a great literary work.
Absolutely agree. For me also it was Billy Bunter and Biggles (not that they ever appeared in the same story as far as I am aware) and then that leads one onto other things.
And as for @Leon I have for the past several years ordered each year's Booker short list and read them at leisure through the course of the next 18-24 months. There are some amazing gems in there (Elmet and Narcopolis stand out) but one or two shockers (soz - I couldn't get through A Brief History..) so yes I agree even in the supposed Premier League accessibility (let's not call it quality) varies.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
Matches the observation that schools are a lot less empty than in March. Employers are being less community-spirited in the extent to which people can childmind at home, because the funding isn't there.
I wonder also if the vaccine good news is being misread. Yes, vaccination is happening, but it's not going to solve the immediate crisis.
I think the fact that it is now winter is the main driver of any difference in outcomes, rather than tinkering at the edges re: garden centres.
My main treat of the week is now a takeaway tuna melt panini at Caffe Nero on a Saturday, and I will be absolutely fuming if the 'hide under the duvet on a public sector furlough' brigade scare the govt into mandating that takeaways be closed. Given I do all the cooking, its more the break than the product! I look forward to it from about Thursday onwards. Quite a difference to trips across Europe buying books, visiting old friends and staying in nice hotels. It is amazing how quickly my life has become so very small.
Indeed. I think the seasonal effect is being (deliberately?) underplayed by the Whittyites.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Well said. I'm bemused by the entire brevity is the only key to great writing idea.
Since fantasy writing has been brought up, I am a tremendous fan of epic fantasy. Game of Thrones has made this much more popular, but Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is my favourite. I'm guessing Mysticrose would hate it - 14 books (3 finished posthumously by a different author from his notes), mostly about 800 pages each, plus spin off books; brevity is not its strong point.
But what Jordan is good at is creating an epic world, in the mould of Tolkien. Hundreds of characters that come alive, dozens of locations spanning a continent that comes alive. Rose would no doubt say it needs an editor and you could probably chop hundreds of pages from each book without losing any of the key plot - but it would lose the elements that flesh out and invest the reader into what is happening.
World building is why I prefer fantasy and sci-fi. You can have every element of other genres - swashbuckling, romance, whatever - but can be as creative (or derivative) as you like, whilst still having great plotting, characters and so on, on top of that. Wheel of Time is right up there.
I could list a whole bunch more, but I've bored people enough.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
Who decides what is good writing? I think everyone accepts that mere popularity doesn't indicate quality of a work, but when a work is so influential as a result of the effectiveness of its story telling I'm not sure what is gained from snobbery about its, IDK, academic or artistic quality.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
Well of course I decide what is good writing. As do you.
And as I have also said I have no recollection of the writing of LOTR beyond it was an amazing, formative book for me.
As for those "officially good books" I'm not so sure they are even a thing. Some stand the test of time, others don't. There is a reason why, say, you can find a new imprint of Portrait of the Artist in bookshops every few years, that said. But god knows what the sales numbers are.
James Joyce sells well. Books remain in print, or get reissued in a new cover, for a reason. It’s not for fun.
Ulysses has sold several millions of copies just in English (plus millions in translation). Which is pretty impressive for a famously difficult modernist masterpiece. Of course you might ask how many of those copies have been read to the end. FWIW it is the only novel I’ve read twice.
Under the first lockdown - where masks were not required - supermarket staff instigated a whole load of rules. External queue lines. Traffic control staff at the door. One way systems. Roaming staff enforcers for the one-way systems. And the rates of assault on supermarket staff rocketed.
This time around punters are bored of it. And need to wear masks. The same people who thought the rules allowed them to threaten and assault staff last time aren't wearing masks now. Imagine the fun* that will happen if tha government decide that the people who have to make people comply with their mixed messaging are the people in Tesco...
Police could probably do a great deal more good infection-wise (than going around harassing picnickers) by stationing a couple of officers in large supermarkets. Though not sure how the supermarkets would feel.
They could. However there is an issue there. Local plod on any given shift has a desk sergeant and three PCs. To cover a large area where by quick reckoning there are at least 3 times the number of supermarkets as there are officers.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Well said. I'm bemused by the entire brevity is the only key to great writing idea.
Since fantasy writing has been brought up, I am a tremendous fan of epic fantasy. Game of Thrones has made this much more popular, but Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is my favourite. I'm guessing Mysticrose would hate it - 14 books (3 finished posthumously by a different author from his notes), mostly about 800 pages each, plus spin off books; brevity is not its strong point.
But what Jordan is good at is creating an epic world, in the mould of Tolkien. Hundreds of characters that come alive, dozens of locations spanning a continent that comes alive. Rose would no doubt say it needs an editor and you could probably chop hundreds of pages from each book without losing any of the key plot - but it would lose the elements that flesh out and invest the reader into what is happening.
I think @MystichardlyJKRowlingrose got themselves in a tizzy because they first started saying a thread should be concise which view certainly has merit.
But then LOTR and The Great Gatsby were chucked in to muddy the waters; using LOTR as an example of great literature in a discussion about how less is more is certainly an interesting approach.
As I said, the exception which proves the rule. LOTR is fab. I still read it from time to time.
And I'm the last person on the thread who is in a tizzy. I'm working on my next novel so dipping in and out. The only thing which made me irritated was Nerys' false claim that our soaring infection rates are because we are all wearing masks, or some such nonsense.
However, thread writers on here should use an editor and cut the waffle. Mike is a great example: keeps to one point, made well.
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
She's almost an afterthought though. I struggle to think of more than one or two lines of dialogue spoken by a female character in Fellowship of the Ring and much of the Two Towers involves the actions of a whole species whose women just upped and left a couple of millenia before.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Well said. I'm bemused by the entire brevity is the only key to great writing idea.
Since fantasy writing has been brought up, I am a tremendous fan of epic fantasy. Game of Thrones has made this much more popular, but Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is my favourite. I'm guessing Mysticrose would hate it - 14 books (3 finished posthumously by a different author from his notes), mostly about 800 pages each, plus spin off books; brevity is not its strong point.
But what Jordan is good at is creating an epic world, in the mould of Tolkien. Hundreds of characters that come alive, dozens of locations spanning a continent that comes alive. Rose would no doubt say it needs an editor and you could probably chop hundreds of pages from each book without losing any of the key plot - but it would lose the elements that flesh out and invest the reader into what is happening.
I think @MystichardlyJKRowlingrose got themselves in a tizzy because they first started saying a thread should be concise which view certainly has merit.
But then LOTR and The Great Gatsby were chucked in to muddy the waters; using LOTR as an example of great literature in a discussion about how less is more is certainly an interesting approach.
Compared to epic fantasy like Wheel of Time or Game of Thrones then LOTR is concise. The entire LOTR trilogy is about the same length as one of WOT's 14 books.
Re. JK Rowling I get irritated with my fellow authors who, largely out of jealousy, take a pop at her writing.
She introduced an entire generation to the wonder of reading and for that you will never find me criticising her.
BTW, you’ve given away enough hints, through style, opinion and personal facts, that I believe I’ve worked out who you are. I will never express my opinion, nor speculate on here. Rest assured.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Sort your reflexive pronouns out.
Don't end a sentence with a preposition.
Now bog off.
The proscription against preposition stranding is a stylistic imprecation from Dryden. There is no grammatical rule in modern English which forbids it. The type of English up with which I will not put, etc.
Is "routinely wears" a split infinitive?
No, and the rule against split infinitives is pants anyway.
I`m not disagreeing about the "pants" thing, but why isn`t it a split infinitive?
Not an infinitive at all. An infinitive is "to love," a split infinitive is "to routinely love."
I don`t get this. I can`t figure why "to routinely love" is a split infinitive but "to routinely wear" isn`t. Is it because Mysticrose has writing it as "routinely wears" rather than "to routinely wear"?
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Tolkein was a scholar and had an intinsic love of language and his writing shows that. What Rowling has over him is women. HP has a lot of characters, starting with Hermione Granger but not limited to her, that female readers can buy into. With the possible exception of Éowyn, who has a very minor part, there are no women in LOTR for girls to relate to, just demi-goddesses like Galadriel up on a very high pedistal. So JKR has a head start with over half the book buying public.
Tolkien is a product of his time with that.
More modern fantasy, even those written by men, has had key female characters or leads for decades now. Roughly half of Jordan's primary characters in the Wheel of Time are women. David Eddings was the author that got me into fantasy when I was a child and he has many female leads. It isn't just modern female authors who include girls or women in their books.
But there are a lot more female authors now, even in just the last 10-15 years, which has been quite welcome.
Trudi Canavan has had some very good, relatively light stuff, with male and female protagonists. Her Millenium's rule quartet is really quite excellent, after an understated first book.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Haha. What.
I believe Jackie Collins and Tom Clancy were also exceedingly popular. Very hard to repeat what they do, too.
Tolkien will be read, revered and remembered for many decades. 99% of writers are forgotten the day they die, or long before, and this is equally true of esteemed literary fiction as it is of best-selling popular fiction.
The first WINNER of the Booker Prize, in 1969, was.... “P. H. Newby”
I can’t remember who said it, some famous novelist I believe, but there is a celebrated adage in publishing: any author is extremely lucky if his book lives longer than the average cat.
I was amazed, some years ago, when Oryx and Crake came out. Here was the first work for a while, from a literary great, an event.
And in the Sunday Times, it duly came in at No.1 on the best seller lists. Having sold a grant total of 3,450 copies. OK this was before The Handmaid's Tale took off on Netflix but even still.
We really don't read as much as we think we do here.
We certainly don’t read as much “literary fiction” - the stuff that, I presume, Gardenwalker is referring to. The genre is dying on its arse in terms of sales. Advances are now a fraction of what they were. Very few writers can make a living from it.
Why?
Shorter attention spans. Smartphones. And competition from TV drama, which is now so good it makes many novels look painfully boring. But also this (whisper it): a lot of literary fiction is shit, and barely readable, because it has no story. No plot. And that’s what people want. A GOOD STORY, which is much harder to do than a good paragraph.
I am not really talking about the distinction between literary and popular fiction.
Literary fiction can also be bad writing: obscure, prolix, academic.
Good writing is good prose.
Tolkien may tell a great yarn but his prose is wooly, repetitive, and cliched. His characterisation is paper-thin. Hence his main audience is pre-pubescent boys.
That he should have a devoted coincidence on PB is no coincidence. We also have a high number of IT professionals, model toy enthusiasts, and moth-botherers.
Under the first lockdown - where masks were not required - supermarket staff instigated a whole load of rules. External queue lines. Traffic control staff at the door. One way systems. Roaming staff enforcers for the one-way systems. And the rates of assault on supermarket staff rocketed.
This time around punters are bored of it. And need to wear masks. The same people who thought the rules allowed them to threaten and assault staff last time aren't wearing masks now. Imagine the fun* that will happen if tha government decide that the people who have to make people comply with their mixed messaging are the people in Tesco...
Police could probably do a great deal more good infection-wise (than going around harassing picnickers) by stationing a couple of officers in large supermarkets. Though not sure how the supermarkets would feel.
Under the first lockdown - where masks were not required - supermarket staff instigated a whole load of rules. External queue lines. Traffic control staff at the door. One way systems. Roaming staff enforcers for the one-way systems. And the rates of assault on supermarket staff rocketed.
This time around punters are bored of it. And need to wear masks. The same people who thought the rules allowed them to threaten and assault staff last time aren't wearing masks now. Imagine the fun* that will happen if tha government decide that the people who have to make people comply with their mixed messaging are the people in Tesco...
Police could probably do a great deal more good infection-wise (than going around harassing picnickers) by stationing a couple of officers in large supermarkets. Though not sure how the supermarkets would feel.
They could. However there is an issue there. Local plod on any given shift has a desk sergeant and three PCs. To cover a large area where by quick reckoning there are at least 3 times the number of supermarkets as there are officers.
Ultimately this has to be lockdown by consent. It can't be policed. I haven't seen a policeman or policewoman in my village for months.
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
She's almost an afterthought though. I struggle to think of more than one or two lines of dialogue spoken by a female character in Fellowship of the Ring and much of the Two Towers involves the actions of a whole species whose women just upped and left a couple of millenia before.
One of the smart moves Peter Jackson made was to replace the vanishingly thin character Glorfindel with Arwen. That worked well in the dash to Rivendell.
Tolkien was very much an old school bachelor though and it does show through.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
Why? The insurgents taking hostages was a key part of his plan. Whip up the crowd. Withdraw security. Stop the certification. A hostage crisis. Martial Law.
Next you'll be telling us how they were all Antifa.
By all accounts, 'the Capitol Police were offered help but refused it:
That points to the most likely thing being sheer incompetence / not expecting the demonstration to turn violent. To be fair, there is the suggestion the Police were stung by the criticism they received last year for how the DC demonstrations were handled. Also, rallies where Trump speaks don't have a history of violence afterwards.
Mind you, it does look like one BLM chap was there:
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Sort your reflexive pronouns out.
Don't end a sentence with a preposition.
Now bog off.
The proscription against preposition stranding is a stylistic imprecation from Dryden. There is no grammatical rule in modern English which forbids it. The type of English up with which I will not put, etc.
Is "routinely wears" a split infinitive?
No, and the rule against split infinitives is pants anyway.
I`m not disagreeing about the "pants" thing, but why isn`t it a split infinitive?
Not an infinitive at all. An infinitive is "to love," a split infinitive is "to routinely love."
I don`t get this. I can`t figure why "to routinely love" is a split infinitive but "to routinely wear" isn`t. Is it because Mysticrose has writing it as "routinely wears" rather than "to routinely wear"?
Yes. If you lose "to" it stops being infinitive.
I don't understand the rule anyway. It's beyond me why "will routinely love" is OK if "to routinely love" isn't.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
Yes, but is it good writing?
What is your definition of good writing if it doesn’t mean superb plotting, great descriptions, absorbing characters and epic feats of glorious imagination? In a style that enchants many millions of people?
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Haha. What.
I believe Jackie Collins and Tom Clancy were also exceedingly popular. Very hard to repeat what they do, too.
Tolkien will be read, revered and remembered for many decades. 99% of writers are forgotten the day they die, or long before, and this is equally true of esteemed literary fiction as it is of best-selling popular fiction.
The first WINNER of the Booker Prize, in 1969, was.... “P. H. Newby”
I can’t remember who said it, some famous novelist I believe, but there is a celebrated adage in publishing: any author is extremely lucky if his book lives longer than the average cat.
I was amazed, some years ago, when Oryx and Crake came out. Here was the first work for a while, from a literary great, an event.
And in the Sunday Times, it duly came in at No.1 on the best seller lists. Having sold a grant total of 3,450 copies. OK this was before The Handmaid's Tale took off on Netflix but even still.
We really don't read as much as we think we do here.
We certainly don’t read as much “literary fiction” - the stuff that, I presume, Gardenwalker is referring to. The genre is dying on its arse in terms of sales. Advances are now a fraction of what they were. Very few writers can make a living from it.
Why?
Shorter attention spans. Smartphones. And competition from TV drama, which is now so good it makes many novels look painfully boring. But also this (whisper it): a lot of literary fiction is shit, and barely readable, because it has no story. No plot. And that’s what people want. A GOOD STORY, which is much harder to do than a good paragraph.
I am not really talking about the distinction between literary and popular fiction.
Literary fiction can also be bad writing: obscure, prolix, academic.
Good writing is good prose.
Tolkien may tell a great yarn but his prose is wooly, repetitive, and cliched. His characterisation is paper-thin. Hence his main audience is pre-pubescent boys.
That he should have a devoted coincidence on PB is no coincidence. We also have a high number of IT professionals, model toy enthusiasts, and moth-botherers.
Under the first lockdown - where masks were not required - supermarket staff instigated a whole load of rules. External queue lines. Traffic control staff at the door. One way systems. Roaming staff enforcers for the one-way systems. And the rates of assault on supermarket staff rocketed.
This time around punters are bored of it. And need to wear masks. The same people who thought the rules allowed them to threaten and assault staff last time aren't wearing masks now. Imagine the fun* that will happen if tha government decide that the people who have to make people comply with their mixed messaging are the people in Tesco...
Police could probably do a great deal more good infection-wise (than going around harassing picnickers) by stationing a couple of officers in large supermarkets. Though not sure how the supermarkets would feel.
The Police don't have the numbers to do that.
Austerity means we lost 20,000 officers.
And by some strange and no doubt random co-incidence that's the number of new police-persons that Johnson and Patel have promised to recruit. After having been part of a Government that got rid of them.
Have just heard Nadhim Zahawi on the radio saying we are allowed out to exercise for 1 hour. Then asking people not to "push against the rules". Yet 1 hour exercise isn't the rule.
With people being arrested for daft things and others openly ignoring the rules this kind of stupid confusion from the government really isn't helpful.
And the really bad thing is that it is focussing on something that is a fringe issue. The reality is that such activity is probably contributing a negligible amount to the spread of the virus.
Things that ought to be addressed:-
1. Why no negative covid tests for travellers from Ireland which is in a very bad position at present? 2. Places of worship - even with social distancing inside they are surely as great a risk as pubs. 3. Who is classified as a key worker. 4. The lack of support for those who have to self-isolate or freelancers or limit the business they can do etc. If people have no support then they will work and this increases the risk of spreading.
3 & 4 are down to Sunak. The situation now is worse than last March and the financial support package therefore needs to be at least as the same as it was then. Not worse. Sunak's miserliness is undermining the health message. And is costing lives.
2. A number of closed churches went after the government during the november lockdown. I wonder if the government got advice that they'd loose if it came to court?
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
I don`t see why a piece of writing has to have only one point.
And Nery`s doesn't claim to be a nurse.
Yes it's *his* wife that is the nurse. *He* is a builder.
I do understand why people get confused however – regardless of the fact 25% of nurses are male, our subconscious bias response is that a nurse is female and Nerys uses a female name despite being a bloke!
Under the first lockdown - where masks were not required - supermarket staff instigated a whole load of rules. External queue lines. Traffic control staff at the door. One way systems. Roaming staff enforcers for the one-way systems. And the rates of assault on supermarket staff rocketed.
This time around punters are bored of it. And need to wear masks. The same people who thought the rules allowed them to threaten and assault staff last time aren't wearing masks now. Imagine the fun* that will happen if tha government decide that the people who have to make people comply with their mixed messaging are the people in Tesco...
Police could probably do a great deal more good infection-wise (than going around harassing picnickers) by stationing a couple of officers in large supermarkets. Though not sure how the supermarkets would feel.
FPT (and other threads) - I must say I find all this "I was right about Trump all along - here's what I said and here's how right I was; here's what you said, and here's how you wrong *you* were. Hahaha." stuff pretty unedifying.
Gloating is one thing but it's worse than that: it's almost as if they're half-pleased Trump has crossed the Rubicon, because they can now be vindicated.
I don't mind admitting I got Trump wrong. I thought he was a windbag who was full of hot air but would ultimately slip away after losing election after blasting off about how he still thought he was right and would come back one day (or one of his acolytes) once the Dems had failed.
I was wrong about that. I am wrong about things all the time. I don't mind admitting that. I'd also say that so is everyone else. There's no such a thing as a Sage who's a perfect predictor of the future all the time.
So, a little more magnanimity and a little less narcissism from those who got it right would be appreciated please.
Hubris can read its ugly head very quickly.
I don't mind people spounting off about how they were right about seeing the threat that Trump posed, if they did (and if their reasoning was right) - as long as they have a similar record of flagging up equivalent threats from elsewhere on the political spectrum too.
There are no equivalent threats in any developed country anywhere else on the political spectrum. There's a genre of journalism where you pretend that there's an equivalence somewhere for the sake of balance, but I don't think it convinces anyone.
Bizarre whataboutery from Herdson. There are some really mad takes from this Trump biz.
It's not whataboutery and it's not bizarre.
The point is about consistency and judgement. Someone who has railed against Trump for years might well have done so because they understood his nature, his methods and his threat. Fair call. Chapeau.
On the other hand, they might have done it because he is a crass boor and aligned to the populist right - neither of which is necessary nor sufficient of themselves (or even together), to point to his true threat to the system and to freedoms and safety.
Where the critic's reasoning is the latter, it's much more likely that (1) they'll have given similar but misguided threats about many other politicians on the right, and seen such predictions go wrong; and (2) not made any predictions of that nature about others who do pose systemic threats but do so from a different angle of attack. The context and the reasoning of the critic is essential to understand whether they actually had good judgement or were simply a stopped clock at the right time.
This is angel-counting guff while the tanks are circling Berlin as far as I’m concerned.
The problem is Trump and the safety of democracy in the USA, not phantoms from “different angles of attack”, whatever they are supposed to be.
If people want to feel smugly vindicated in their antipathy to Trump, more power to their elbow. His anti-democratic instincts may not have been completely obvious but it was clear from the outset that he was happy to whip up hate against minorities, immigrants, the disabled, women etc.
He was always more than “just a crass boor”.
Let me put it this way then. Yes, of course Trump was more than just a crass boor. But how many of those who've said "Trump was always this massive threat" have said the same about, say, Johnson?
An inability (or disinclination) to distinguish between populists and how far they would be prepared to go renders a lot of their analysis worthless if it pronounces them all much of a muchness, when they aren't.
Although via Cummings he clearly mimicked him at crucial moments, such as the boorish and inflammatory "surrender bill" , and at other times some of the more ironic nudge-and-wink extremity, Johnson still isn't quite the same sort of populist as Trump.
It's been Cummings that was the loudest voice of British Trumpism into his ear. During the menacingly shameless downing street press conference, which could have been Trump's, he also suddenly modulated his voice to a more of a local Durham than I've ever heard from him. It was the 'unashamed streetwise against worthy, liberal delusions' schtick again.
Comments
Can we please get back to Brexit so that we can enliven both our days.
Stop trying to control people's lives even more than is already happening, and start focusing on rolling out the vaccine faster....
That's a far cry from them getting hosting elsewhere (US or non-US) but having the IP address they host with blocked by US ISPs, which would be the step that necessitated a VPN.
Which is why the likes of Andrea Leadsome get rolled out in the media to tell the ex head of the WTO that he is wrong about the WTO. Don't like the EU telling us what to do? Vote Brexit! Then we can go WTO and tell other people what to do. Rule sodding Britannia and all that.
Rule Makers, not Rule Takers. That every country is a rule taker isn't the issue. Its that they have whipped the ill-informed into believe it.
I suppose you mean a pretty or elegant sentence?
That is much easier to do than what Tolkien did. You can basically learn to write a sonorous sentence at a creative writing class. Thousands learn it every year: none of them will ever write anything that approaches LOTR
Welcome aboard, by the way.
But the original point by Ms Batty was about the quality of prose.
Doubt any Tolkien extracts would be held up as an exemplar.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Such bad writing means that it is difficult, if you are a teenager or beyond, to get to the story without being put off. I managed 10 pages each of HP, Dan Brown and 50 Shades and trust me for 50 Shades I was really trying to read it for the filth.
As a friend of mine said, when we had just seen Maitresse, which at the time was a big deal S&M-wise but turned out to be v tame and super disappointing - "I came here to be disgusted and I'm disgusted".
I believe Jackie Collins and Tom Clancy were also exceedingly popular. Very hard to repeat what they do, too.
You live in a different world to me. I can only think of a couple of people I know round here who has had it. Though I guess there are other who have tested positive but not been poorly.
https://www.racingpost.com/news/latest/racing-continues-bha-and-government-sources-move-to-quash-shutdown-rumours/467664
In what way is SKS funny...
The first WINNER of the Booker Prize, in 1969, was.... “P. H. Newby”
I can’t remember who said it, some famous novelist I believe, but there is a celebrated adage in publishing: any author is extremely lucky if his book lives longer than the average cat.
As it happens I think LOTR, despite being one of my favourites, has some pretty obvious flaws in structure and style - the man really could have used an editor - that books in the same genre have bettered, but is it still great writing despite those flaws because it is so impactful?
I think it would be pretty easy to find examples of some officially approved 'great' writing that tells a shitty story with shitty characters and disappeared without a trace.
So I'm not sure that the line between great and not great writing is really as identifiable as we might wish.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55615471
Though its true that they face little risk themselves.
And in the Sunday Times, it duly came in at No.1 on the best seller lists. Having sold a grant total of 3,450 copies. OK this was before The Handmaid's Tale took off on Netflix but even still.
We really don't read as much as we think we do here.
Next you'll be telling us how they were all Antifa.
And as I have also said I have no recollection of the writing of LOTR beyond it was an amazing, formative book for me.
As for those "officially good books" I'm not so sure they are even a thing. Some stand the test of time, others don't. There is a reason why, say, you can find a new imprint of Portrait of the Artist in bookshops every few years, that said. But god knows what the sales numbers are.
Oh and yes I use a VPN, for obvious reasons 'cos I'm also a newspaper columnist. But no I'm not SeanT. Nor Eadric.
Have a good day as far as that's possible.
Crying out for editing, mind. Why does it take 1,000 pages to get to the Council of Elrond, and what is that hippified bore Tom Bombadil for?
An inability (or disinclination) to distinguish between populists and how far they would be prepared to go renders a lot of their analysis worthless if it pronounces them all much of a muchness, when they aren't.
1. Why no negative covid tests for travellers from Ireland which is in a very bad position at present?
2. Places of worship - even with social distancing inside they are surely as great a risk as pubs.
3. Who is classified as a key worker.
4. The lack of support for those who have to self-isolate or freelancers or limit the business they can do etc. If people have no support then they will work and this increases the risk of spreading.
3 & 4 are down to Sunak. The situation now is worse than last March and the financial support package therefore needs to be at least as the same as it was then. Not worse. Sunak's miserliness is undermining the health message. And is costing lives.
Since fantasy writing has been brought up, I am a tremendous fan of epic fantasy. Game of Thrones has made this much more popular, but Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is my favourite. I'm guessing Mysticrose would hate it - 14 books (3 finished posthumously by a different author from his notes), mostly about 800 pages each, plus spin off books; brevity is not its strong point.
But what Jordan is good at is creating an epic world, in the mould of Tolkien. Hundreds of characters that come alive, dozens of locations spanning a continent that comes alive. Rose would no doubt say it needs an editor and you could probably chop hundreds of pages from each book without losing any of the key plot - but it would lose the elements that flesh out and invest the reader into what is happening.
Basic stuff, but it can save lives.
As I said at the time, my brother in law reckoned he caught Covid on a supermarket shopping trip, then passed it to his wife and son. That's 3 cases that could have been avoided if he'd done click and collect.
And takeaways should be serving from the doorway, not making folk enter the shop.
Why?
Shorter attention spans. Smartphones. And competition from TV drama, which is now so good it makes many novels look painfully boring. But also this (whisper it): a lot of literary fiction is shit, and barely readable, because it has no story. No plot. And that’s what people want. A GOOD STORY, which is much harder to do than a good paragraph.
It's not perfect writing. At times it's clunky and sometimes absurdly flowery. The poems and songs are a bit naff. But some of his prose is glorious. His descriptions of landscape are superb. And take a look at his brilliant non-descriptive descriptiveness of Gollum. It's worthy of a study in its own right. He wonderfully portrays 'the creature Gollum' as variously like a frog, a spider, a bony creature, a bird etc. etc.
And yes he was a towering philologist.
Both are a fairly short story with The Mother All Digressions Everytime Anything Happens.
She introduced an entire generation to the wonder of reading and for that you will never find me criticising her.
On Tolkien, I find his imagination very vivid, and better at integrating a physical 'map' of his world into his books than many more literary authors, but not massively intellectually profound.
The death toll could easily have been very much more than it was and but for the actions of the security guards in the chamber itself the number would almost certainly have included Senators and other elected representatives.
Once an insurrection gets out of hand there is no telling where it stops. I don't think any 'machiavellian hand' was in control. I don't think anybody was in control.
As for your first sentence, then why are people getting so sniffy if other people say something is good writing if it is accepted it is entirely subjective? I think people tend to operate on a 'I cannot define it, but I know it when I see it' basis, as few object to crapping on Dan Brown's works, but more object to crapping on JK Rowling's (well, until this year anyway now she is a pariah) although plenty of criticism remains.
But then LOTR and The Great Gatsby were chucked in to muddy the waters; using LOTR as an example of great literature in a discussion about how less is more is certainly an interesting approach.
Austerity means we lost 20,000 officers.
Take everything you know about the election and imagine Trump actually was the declared winner. It literally would have been stolen from Biden.
Now simply reverse Biden/Trump and the MAGA reality delusion makes perfect sense.
I'm lucky to have a great agent, one of the most successful in publishing history. I've learned a lot from him and I read voluminously. I doubt there's anyone on here who has read as many books as I have. That's not bragging just something I've always loved doing. My Oxford don said he'd never come across anyone who had read so much.
The point is that you start to recognise when a writer has got into a mindset where they think verbosity is smart. It's rarely the case. Keep it clean. More is less.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
So, they not going to listen to Hancock blathering on about "Save Grandpa".
After all, what did Gramps ever do for them? He is a greedy, selfish man who denied the benefits he received to younger people.
And -- if pb.com is any guide -- Gramps is going on a skiing holiday as soon as he is vaccinated (first in the queue as usual).
It is simply not right to expect young people to bear pain & loss of opportunity without any reward. Young people are giving & giving & giving -- and getting nothing back.
More modern fantasy, even those written by men, has had key female characters or leads for decades now. Roughly half of Jordan's primary characters in the Wheel of Time are women. David Eddings was the author that got me into fantasy when I was a child and he has many female leads. It isn't just modern female authors who include girls or women in their books.
And as for @Leon I have for the past several years ordered each year's Booker short list and read them at leisure through the course of the next 18-24 months. There are some amazing gems in there (Elmet and Narcopolis stand out) but one or two shockers (soz - I couldn't get through A Brief History..) so yes I agree even in the supposed Premier League accessibility (let's not call it quality) varies.
I could list a whole bunch more, but I've bored people enough.
Ulysses has sold several millions of copies just in English (plus millions in translation). Which is pretty impressive for a famously difficult modernist masterpiece. Of course you might ask how many of those copies have been read to the end. FWIW it is the only novel I’ve read twice.
And I'm the last person on the thread who is in a tizzy. I'm working on my next novel so dipping in and out. The only thing which made me irritated was Nerys' false claim that our soaring infection rates are because we are all wearing masks, or some such nonsense.
However, thread writers on here should use an editor and cut the waffle. Mike is a great example: keeps to one point, made well.
Another bloody classicist.
Trudi Canavan has had some very good, relatively light stuff, with male and female protagonists. Her Millenium's rule quartet is really quite excellent, after an understated first book.
Literary fiction can also be bad writing: obscure, prolix, academic.
Good writing is good prose.
Tolkien may tell a great yarn but his prose is wooly, repetitive, and cliched. His characterisation is paper-thin. Hence his main audience is pre-pubescent boys.
That he should have a devoted coincidence on PB is no coincidence. We also have a high number of IT professionals, model toy enthusiasts, and moth-botherers.
Tolkien was very much an old school bachelor though and it does show through.
https://apnews.com/article/capitol-police-reject-federal-help-9c39a4ddef0ab60a48828a07e4d03380
That points to the most likely thing being sheer incompetence / not expecting the demonstration to turn violent. To be fair, there is the suggestion the Police were stung by the criticism they received last year for how the DC demonstrations were handled. Also, rallies where Trump speaks don't have a history of violence afterwards.
Mind you, it does look like one BLM chap was there:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/anti-trump-activist-entered-capitol-wednesday
I don't understand the rule anyway. It's beyond me why "will routinely love" is OK if "to routinely love" isn't.
After having been part of a Government that got rid of them.
https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/uk-pastors-sue-government-over-church-lockdown
I do understand why people get confused however – regardless of the fact 25% of nurses are male, our subconscious bias response is that a nurse is female and Nerys uses a female name despite being a bloke!
It's been Cummings that was the loudest voice of British Trumpism into his ear. During the menacingly shameless downing street press conference, which could have been Trump's, he also suddenly modulated his voice to a more of a local Durham than I've ever heard from him. It was the 'unashamed streetwise against worthy, liberal delusions' schtick again.