Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
Never heard of it before now, but I'm disappointed it wasn't called Spies Girls.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Turgid prolixity can be a bugger.
It works, if it works at all, largely by virtue of its scope. If you haven't read all of it as I assume you haven't, you won't appreciate that.
I read it first at the age of 16 and again in my 40s. I don't detect any particular slant towards the teenage in it, it worked both times.
I'm fairly sure a financial lawyer knows all about 'turgid prolixity.'
Did I say I was a financial lawyer?
Don't confuse lengthy with prolix. For any bit of legal text that you personally don't see the point of, the probability is that the draftsman can explain why it is there and that the effect of the text would be different were it not there.
Talking fiction, I read another tranche of War & Peace yesterday. The Frenchies have had their arses kicked.
I am enjoying it greatly. Good writing (presumably a good translator) and a good story. And I know who is who and what is going on, which isn't always the case.
But the ending. OMG the ending. The worst ending to a great classic ever?
Worst first line too. Also. Original title was "All's Well That Ends Well." Mighty fine read though having said that.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
There is also the fact that a lot more effort has been put into trying to keep open. In the first lockdown, most coffee shops etc just shut. Now they are open.
And why is that? Because the financial support simply isn't there. Why is Daughter still doing takeaways (and very safely too)? Because the financial support now is very much less, what has been promised still hasn't been paid, furlough is less than it was and the bills still need paying.
Both sons work in food shops. One has been sent home to isolate because a co-worker caught Covid and so he's waiting for a test to see whether he's got it. I pray daily that he doesn't because it puts my husband and other son at risk. But at least his employer is still paying him. Others are not so fortunate. Sunak's meanness with support is undermining what is necessary on the health side.
If the government imposes more restrictions without providing more support then it will simply lead to a greater economic collapse than we're already facing.
I assume your daughter structured her business as a limited company. If she were S/E it may have been different. I do think there is so much unfairness in all this and Sunak will not escape criticism over it. The difference between the money thrown at some S/E people compared to the paltry sums/nothing/loans to those who are ltd (though regard themselves as self employed) is extraordinary.
Our tax/corporate structure system needs looking at. The concept of setting up a company to pay low wages and high dividends for owner mangers has nearly run its course, and led to this issue.
And I say that as an accountant, which has been setting these things up for nigh on 20 years.
She runs a pub/restaurant. Of course it's a limited company - as I imagine most other similar businesses are.
A very different proposition to a writer, say, setting up a limited company to receive his/her earnings.
The reason the support is less is because Sunak has deliberately cut back on the support for the hospitality sector despite it bearing the brunt of the restrictions and for longer than most other sectors. It's almost as if they wish to close it down permanently.
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
Top Gear had a majority female audience ??? !!!
Of all the things I've ever seen on here that make me go, "Oh come on. source please and even then I won't believe it", this one takes the biscuit.
Me too! That I simply cannot believe for a minute.
The only time Ms C sat through a Top Gear was when it was put on the screen in an internal Australian flight - the local male pax all laughing like horses.
Mrs Anabobzina absolutely hates it and considers it to be an exposition of maleness at its worst. She won't even be in the room when it's on the telly (ditto The Grand Tour).
I`m the same with Strictly Come Dancing.
You find Strictly Come Dancing to be an exposition of maleness it it's worst?
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
Top Gear had a majority female audience ??? !!!
Of all the things I've ever seen on here that make me go, "Oh come on. source please and even then I won't believe it", this one takes the biscuit.
Me too! That I simply cannot believe for a minute.
The only time Ms C sat through a Top Gear was when it was put on the screen in an internal Australian flight - the local male pax all laughing like horses.
Mrs Anabobzina absolutely hates it and considers it to be an exposition of maleness at its worst. She won't even be in the room when it's on the telly (ditto The Grand Tour).
I tried (with only partial success) to stop my son watching it when he was at an age where I was worried about impressionability.
Perry Anderson makes a claim that Powell is better, and Dance to the Music of Time is certainly more relevant to PB.
When I was a voracious reader I tried À la recherche du temps perdu and it defeated me after 70 pages, though 'tits like hunting horns' stuck with me. Otoh I read (some of the volumes several times) and loved Dance To The Music of Time; wily, old Powell knew his audience and doled it out in chunks.
If you like Powell see also Simon Raven Alms for Oblivion.
Does it really say 'tits like hunting horns' in Proust?
Since I recounted it to my art school pals to their great amusement I'm assuming I didn't make it up, though it was a long time ago. From memory it was a conversation about some comtesse or other, but it doesn't come up on a Google search; maybe it was one of the looser translations!
Agree about Raven, discovered him along with Flashman in the school library, a most fruitful time of my life. Shame about the moderate exam results.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
It is a fantastic book and I loved it. When I was twelve. It's hardly SK Tremayne now is it?
Citing it as great writing is the same as citing Harry Potter as great writing.
I would disagree. It may not be considered as a great piece of literature as many consider it to be overlong and many others - the snobs - do not think that any work of such fantasy can be literature, but it is very well written.
Harry Potter on the other hand is not well written. In fact it is appallingly written. It gets away with this because it is undoubtedly a fantastic story. One of the best which will long be considered a classic children's tale. But the writing - nah.
Tolkein was a scholar and had an intinsic love of language and his writing shows that. What Rowling has over him is women. HP has a lot of characters, starting with Hermione Granger but not limited to her, that female readers can buy into. With the possible exception of Éowyn, who has a very minor part, there are no women in LOTR for girls to relate to, just demi-goddesses like Galadriel up on a very high pedistal. So JKR has a head start with over half the book buying public.
LOTR is great. I like Tolkien's acceptance that its only fault is that it is too short. If true it would be the exception to prove the rule.
It's not perfect writing. At times it's clunky and sometimes absurdly flowery. The poems and songs are a bit naff. But some of his prose is glorious. His descriptions of landscape are superb. And take a look at his brilliant non-descriptive descriptiveness of Gollum. It's worthy of a study in its own right. He wonderfully portrays 'the creature Gollum' as variously like a frog, a spider, a bony creature, a bird etc. etc.
And yes he was a towering philologist.
Agree with much of that, especially on landscape. But even better, for me, are his descriptions of weather. The violent snowstorms, the drenching rains, the menacing fogs, the howling winds. He writes them so well and deploys them so effectively.
Talking fiction, I read another tranche of War & Peace yesterday. The Frenchies have had their arses kicked.
I am enjoying it greatly. Good writing (presumably a good translator) and a good story. And I know who is who and what is going on, which isn't always the case.
But the ending. OMG the ending. The worst ending to a great classic ever?
Worst first line too. Also. Original title was "All's Well That Ends Well." Mighty fine read though having said that.
I thought the initial proposal was "The Thirty Nine Steppes."
You thinking of Anna Karenina first line wise? Correct, if so (one of its problems being it works exactly as well if stood on its head).
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I haven't read a word of it but this would almost certainly be my opinion if I ever do.
I enjoyed reading Lord of the Rings (once I made it past the first halves of the first two books) but it's a really odd choice when making the argument for concise writing.
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
She's almost an afterthought though. I struggle to think of more than one or two lines of dialogue spoken by a female character in Fellowship of the Ring and much of the Two Towers involves the actions of a whole species whose women just upped and left a couple of millenia before.
One of the smart moves Peter Jackson made was to replace the vanishingly thin character Glorfindel with Arwen. That worked well in the dash to Rivendell.
Tolkien was very much an old school bachelor though and it does show through.
He married his wife in 1916 when he was 24, and stayed married untill she died in 1971.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Turgid prolixity can be a bugger.
It works, if it works at all, largely by virtue of its scope. If you haven't read all of it as I assume you haven't, you won't appreciate that.
I read it first at the age of 16 and again in my 40s. I don't detect any particular slant towards the teenage in it, it worked both times.
I'm fairly sure a financial lawyer knows all about 'turgid prolixity.'
Did I say I was a financial lawyer?
Don't confuse lengthy with prolix. For any bit of legal text that you personally don't see the point of, the probability is that the draftsman can explain why it is there and that the effect of the text would be different were it not there.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
AFAICS, the ScoTories can dump her instantly by reclaiming the place on their list for the South of Scotland which she is occupying. If they don't, that will be very interesting.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
There is also the fact that a lot more effort has been put into trying to keep open. In the first lockdown, most coffee shops etc just shut. Now they are open.
And why is that? Because the financial support simply isn't there. Why is Daughter still doing takeaways (and very safely too)? Because the financial support now is very much less, what has been promised still hasn't been paid, furlough is less than it was and the bills still need paying.
Both sons work in food shops. One has been sent home to isolate because a co-worker caught Covid and so he's waiting for a test to see whether he's got it. I pray daily that he doesn't because it puts my husband and other son at risk. But at least his employer is still paying him. Others are not so fortunate. Sunak's meanness with support is undermining what is necessary on the health side.
If the government imposes more restrictions without providing more support then it will simply lead to a greater economic collapse than we're already facing.
I assume your daughter structured her business as a limited company. If she were S/E it may have been different. I do think there is so much unfairness in all this and Sunak will not escape criticism over it. The difference between the money thrown at some S/E people compared to the paltry sums/nothing/loans to those who are ltd (though regard themselves as self employed) is extraordinary.
Our tax/corporate structure system needs looking at. The concept of setting up a company to pay low wages and high dividends for owner mangers has nearly run its course, and led to this issue.
And I say that as an accountant, which has been setting these things up for nigh on 20 years.
She runs a pub/restaurant. Of course it's a limited company - as I imagine most other similar businesses are.
A very different proposition to a writer, say, setting up a limited company to receive his/her earnings.
The reason the support is less is because Sunak has deliberately cut back on the support for the hospitality sector despite it bearing the brunt of the restrictions and for longer than most other sectors. It's almost as if they wish to close it down permanently.
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
Joan Bakewell.
Bu that's the point. There's no difference in terms of structure between that ' a proper business', providing services and goods to third parties, and what amounts to freelance individuals which often supply subcontracted labour only services to very few individuals. IR35 was supposed to help, but it's failed.
The remuneration from will most likely have been set up the same. Low wages, and high (if available) dividends. It's a huge level of 'disguised' wages, and increasingly doesn't fit, and leads to issues like the support for employees but not directors.
The way to have got around this would have been to provide support for dividends for small business owners, but that would have opened a can of worms in other areas.
I don't think Farage is going to live down the images of him dancing around at MAGA rallies too quickly, but one part of his base will stay with him and continues to support that regardless.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I haven't read a word of it but this would almost certainly be my opinion if I ever do.
I enjoyed reading Lord of the Rings (once I made it past the first halves of the first two books) but it's a really odd choice when making the argument for concise writing.
I didn't think anyone was arguing about concise writing. They were arguing about good writing. The two can be very different things.
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
She's almost an afterthought though. I struggle to think of more than one or two lines of dialogue spoken by a female character in Fellowship of the Ring and much of the Two Towers involves the actions of a whole species whose women just upped and left a couple of millenia before.
" In place of a dark lord you would have a queen. Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn. Treacherous as the Sea. Stronger than the foundations of the Earth. All shall love me and despair. I pass the test. I will diminish and go into the West and remain Galadriel."
As I said before, the women are either demi-goddesses or Éowyn. You can't relate to an immortal elf queen. The Hobbit womenfolk barely get a word in.
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
Top Gear had a majority female audience ??? !!!
Of all the things I've ever seen on here that make me go, "Oh come on. source please and even then I won't believe it", this one takes the biscuit.
Me too! That I simply cannot believe for a minute.
The only time Ms C sat through a Top Gear was when it was put on the screen in an internal Australian flight - the local male pax all laughing like horses.
Mrs Anabobzina absolutely hates it and considers it to be an exposition of maleness at its worst. She won't even be in the room when it's on the telly (ditto The Grand Tour).
I`m the same with Strictly Come Dancing.
You find Strictly Come Dancing to be an exposition of maleness it it's worst?
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
Arwen is one of the things that annoys me most about the movies. Jackson argued that Tom Bombadil didn’t add to the story, yet he added a load of stuff about Arwen, purely to get Liv Tyler on screen and add a bloody love story to it.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
Really - all he has is someone who is going to lose their seat at the next election.
When he runs against them, its the tories who will be losing their seats.
The South of Scotland could be interestding. Full of retired geriatrics but also with its local industrues being hit by Brexit. The local fishermen really are squealing. I wonder what would happen if Mr Farage tried to tour Eyemouth?
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
Eh, maybe. Getting a defection is one step, keeping and building on that is another. UKIP had to work damn hard to build on defections, we'll see if Reform can.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
100+ clandestine arrivals across the Channel yesterday. NF can't believe his luck.
Meanwhile Patel tells people not to talk on park benches.....
No wonder the tories want to postpone the locals.
Governments generally do badly in locals, delaying might not help them. In fact they likely would prefer them sooner rather than later, hence previously saying they would go ahead.
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
There is also the fact that a lot more effort has been put into trying to keep open. In the first lockdown, most coffee shops etc just shut. Now they are open.
And why is that? Because the financial support simply isn't there. Why is Daughter still doing takeaways (and very safely too)? Because the financial support now is very much less, what has been promised still hasn't been paid, furlough is less than it was and the bills still need paying.
Both sons work in food shops. One has been sent home to isolate because a co-worker caught Covid and so he's waiting for a test to see whether he's got it. I pray daily that he doesn't because it puts my husband and other son at risk. But at least his employer is still paying him. Others are not so fortunate. Sunak's meanness with support is undermining what is necessary on the health side.
If the government imposes more restrictions without providing more support then it will simply lead to a greater economic collapse than we're already facing.
I assume your daughter structured her business as a limited company. If she were S/E it may have been different. I do think there is so much unfairness in all this and Sunak will not escape criticism over it. The difference between the money thrown at some S/E people compared to the paltry sums/nothing/loans to those who are ltd (though regard themselves as self employed) is extraordinary.
Our tax/corporate structure system needs looking at. The concept of setting up a company to pay low wages and high dividends for owner mangers has nearly run its course, and led to this issue.
And I say that as an accountant, which has been setting these things up for nigh on 20 years.
Well IR35 is going to close a lot of those companies down come April (but also significantly impact the flexibility our IT industry has that doesn't exist elsewhere in Europe).
Also a lot of S/E people haven't done well because it's only people with accounts from 2018/19 who have been able to take full benefit of the schemes.
That change got pushed back a year last year, and I expect will happen again, but we will see.
The exploitation of limited liability companies by sole traders (or worse, should-be employees) is VERY ANNOYING for those of us actually setting up businesses and using them for the purpose they were initially intended.
I risk my capital every day in my business, employing people and adding to GB gdp and the treasury; it's only right that I get a small tax benefit from that. Seeing others use it just to disguise employment makes me mad.
Incidentally, as much as I lose out personally, I'm quite pleased that the govt hasn't made LTD company directors whol on lost dividends. Biz is a risk; it needs to be recognised as such from all sides.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
AFAICS, the ScoTories can dump her instantly by reclaiming the place on their list for the South of Scotland which she is occupying. If they don't, that will be very interesting.
I don’t think that’s true.
Once the election is over, an MSP is free to follow his or her own conscience.
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
I don`t see why a piece of writing has to have only one point.
And Nery`s doesn't claim to be a nurse.
Yes it's *his* wife that is the nurse. *He* is a builder.
I do understand why people get confused however – regardless of the fact 25% of nurses are male, our subconscious bias response is that a nurse is female and Nerys uses a female name despite being a bloke!
How do we know that Nerys is a bloke?
I think he has said so. Although it might be my subconscious bias response: builder = bloke.
(That said, in that case, that's a fair assumption – only 3 in 10,000 builders are female)
She (he?) works for a construction company. Accounts manager or something. Not a hairy-arsed bricklayer.
I'm sticking with bloke!
Why don`t you personal message Nerys and ask if he/she has a hairy arse?
Its 2021. Body hair isn't necessarily a guide to gender
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
Betty Boothroyd?
Yes it was. She came over very, very poorly irrespective of whether you agree with the policy or not.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Turgid prolixity can be a bugger.
It works, if it works at all, largely by virtue of its scope. If you haven't read all of it as I assume you haven't, you won't appreciate that.
I read it first at the age of 16 and again in my 40s. I don't detect any particular slant towards the teenage in it, it worked both times.
I'm fairly sure a financial lawyer knows all about 'turgid prolixity.'
Did I say I was a financial lawyer?
Don't confuse lengthy with prolix. For any bit of legal text that you personally don't see the point of, the probability is that the draftsman can explain why it is there and that the effect of the text would be different were it not there.
I don't draft legal text. I write investigation reports and experts' opinions - for courts. A very different sort of writing. But @Topping is right that there is a reason for why the text is the way it is.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
100+ clandestine arrivals across the Channel yesterday. NF can't believe his luck.
Meanwhile Patel tells people not to talk on park benches.....
No wonder the tories want to postpone the locals.
Governments generally do badly in locals, delaying might not help them. In fact they likely would prefer them sooner rather than later, hence previously saying they would go ahead.
I thought it was interesting Whitty was in front of the media on his own this morning.
Mr. Seal, point of order: Eowyn kills the Witch King. That's no small feat.
I quite liked Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion, and Thingol and Melian.
Also, buying into gender is not as necessary as many think. The blokiest of blokey bloke shows, Top Gear, had more female than male viewers. And more boys than girls watched Totally Spies (a cartoon with three teenage girl spies).
She's almost an afterthought though. I struggle to think of more than one or two lines of dialogue spoken by a female character in Fellowship of the Ring and much of the Two Towers involves the actions of a whole species whose women just upped and left a couple of millenia before.
" In place of a dark lord you would have a queen. Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn. Treacherous as the Sea. Stronger than the foundations of the Earth. All shall love me and despair. I pass the test. I will diminish and go into the West and remain Galadriel."
Is that a prediction that Ivanka will run in 2024?
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
There is also the fact that a lot more effort has been put into trying to keep open. In the first lockdown, most coffee shops etc just shut. Now they are open.
And why is that? Because the financial support simply isn't there. Why is Daughter still doing takeaways (and very safely too)? Because the financial support now is very much less, what has been promised still hasn't been paid, furlough is less than it was and the bills still need paying.
Both sons work in food shops. One has been sent home to isolate because a co-worker caught Covid and so he's waiting for a test to see whether he's got it. I pray daily that he doesn't because it puts my husband and other son at risk. But at least his employer is still paying him. Others are not so fortunate. Sunak's meanness with support is undermining what is necessary on the health side.
If the government imposes more restrictions without providing more support then it will simply lead to a greater economic collapse than we're already facing.
I assume your daughter structured her business as a limited company. If she were S/E it may have been different. I do think there is so much unfairness in all this and Sunak will not escape criticism over it. The difference between the money thrown at some S/E people compared to the paltry sums/nothing/loans to those who are ltd (though regard themselves as self employed) is extraordinary.
Our tax/corporate structure system needs looking at. The concept of setting up a company to pay low wages and high dividends for owner mangers has nearly run its course, and led to this issue.
And I say that as an accountant, which has been setting these things up for nigh on 20 years.
She runs a pub/restaurant. Of course it's a limited company - as I imagine most other similar businesses are.
A very different proposition to a writer, say, setting up a limited company to receive his/her earnings.
The reason the support is less is because Sunak has deliberately cut back on the support for the hospitality sector despite it bearing the brunt of the restrictions and for longer than most other sectors. It's almost as if they wish to close it down permanently.
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
It is undoubtedly true that the main audience for LOTR is boys who haven’t had sex yet.
It’s up to you to decide whether you think that pejorative.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
Really - all he has is someone who is going to lose their seat at the next election.
When he runs against them, its the tories who will be losing their seats.
The South of Scotland could be interestding. Full of retired geriatrics but also with its local industrues being hit by Brexit. The local fishermen really are squealing. I wonder what would happen if Mr Farage tried to tour Eyemouth?
Just catching up on some of the literature comments below. Frankly I'm astounded that some people are belittling the Harry Potter books.
Such comments are an insult to the works JK Rowling plagiarised.
Plagiarism is a well-known feature of some of our greatest authors. Hamlet was plagiarised from an earlier play by Thomas Kyd, which was plagiarised from a story by Francois de Belleforest, an improved translation of a work by Matteo Bandello, which itself drew from Danish mythology.
And some quite rubbish authors have been plagiarists too - Daphne du Maurier, who made a successful career stealing other people's plots, springs to mind.
In other news, support for Catalan independence continues to fall. The change from a hard-line, confrontational, right-wing government in Madrid to one run by the centre left that has focused on dialogue has led to a split in the Catalan separatist movement. There is even an outside chance the separatists may lose control of the Catalan parliament after next month's regional elections. https://twitter.com/RupertCocke/status/1348568129685901312
Confirms the PP Spanish government did the right thing in 2017 then refusing a legal independence referendum when support for Catalan independence was much higher and ignoring the Catalan nationalist government's declaration of a UDI.
Had they not done that Catalonia would now be an independent state not seeing support for independence fall
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
It is undoubtedly true that the main audience for LOTR is boys who haven’t had sex yet.
It’s up to you to decide whether you think that pejorative.
I would generally hope that young teens haven't had sex yet...
One interesting observation re writing is what makes a successful 'classic' writer.
The reason I say this is that the British Library are currently publishing collections of stories by genre writers from the 19th and early 20th century. They now have extensive and expanding series for Supernatural/Ghost stories, Science Fiction and Detective/Crime.
What is interesting is that each collection of stories includes a short biography of each writer. What is amazing when reading these stories is how successful and popular they were when they were writing. There are science fiction writers who were considered more successful and influential than HG Wells, Ghost story writers who sold far more and were better known than MR James.
And yet these writers, many of whom wrote dozens of books in addition to short stories and serials are almost entirely unknown today. This is certainly not because of their writing being any way inferior either. In many cases they were considered at the time better than some of those authors who have lived on. And yet in spite of selling vast numbers of books and periodicals, they simply failed to survive in popular culture into the later part of the 20th century.
It is all rather depressing for any aspiring or even successful writer today.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Wtf? Girls and women alike ADORE LOTR. All the biggest fans of Tolkien in my experience have been female. True story.
It’s also true that they like - or liked - Top Gear. I think it must actually be the unabashed masculinity, plus the fact it could be very funny. Plus the fact that a LOT of women are total petrolheads
I don't think Farage is going to live down the images of him dancing around at MAGA rallies too quickly, but one part of his base will stay with him and continues to support that regardless.
It is harder to make the argument trump links are not significant with him than others.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
Long time lurker here. I wanted to make one point on Lockdown compliance similar to Leon's. In my area of North London 50%+ of our peer Group have had covid. It is extraordinarily difficult to instruct such people to continue to follow lockdown rules when they face little risk themselves and pose little risk to others. This issue will only grow.
Among 16-25 year olds, either they have had it, or many of their friends have had it & recovered quickly. Rightly or wrongly, it just doesn't look a big deal to many young people anymore.
So, they not going to listen to Hancock blathering on about "Save Grandpa".
After all, what did Gramps ever do for them? He is a greedy, selfish man who denied the benefits he received to younger people.
And -- if pb.com is any guide -- Gramps is going on a skiing holiday as soon as he is vaccinated (first in the queue as usual).
It is simply not right to expect young people to bear pain & loss of opportunity without any reward. Young people are giving & giving & giving -- and getting nothing back.
Who's economic future is being ruined by our failure to adhere to the rules and stop Covid spreading? I doubt it's Gramps.
Why are students paying tuition fees or rent on University accommodation they cannot use? Who is paying the price of the lockdown in terms of loss of some of the most glorious years of life or loss of opportunity?
The health benefits are accruing mainly to the old, the young are paying the bill.
If the old want the young to lockdown, then they need to pay. That should be made much more explicit in the compact.
The affluent old (especially on pb.com) are living in huge houses, getting enormous Waitrose deliveries, trading their share portfolios, bragging about skiing holidays and ... telling everyone else it is absolutely no problem to lock down harder.
It should be much more explicit that if we are all in this together, and if the young are making sacrifices for the old then there needs to be big pay back for the young.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
I don`t see why a piece of writing has to have only one point.
And Nery`s doesn't claim to be a nurse.
Yes it's *his* wife that is the nurse. *He* is a builder.
I do understand why people get confused however – regardless of the fact 25% of nurses are male, our subconscious bias response is that a nurse is female and Nerys uses a female name despite being a bloke!
How do we know that Nerys is a bloke?
I think he has said so. Although it might be my subconscious bias response: builder = bloke.
(That said, in that case, that's a fair assumption – only 3 in 10,000 builders are female)
She (he?) works for a construction company. Accounts manager or something. Not a hairy-arsed bricklayer.
I'm sticking with bloke!
Why don`t you personal message Nerys and ask if he/she has a hairy arse?
Its 2021. Body hair isn't necessarily a guide to gender
And you never know where that kind of enquiry might lead.
In some parts of the world, it's a standard chat up line.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Well I liked it when I was a teenage boy and don't anymore, so I guess I support your hypothesis. In general the kinds of books I loved as an adolescent or young man (eg Catch-22 or On the Road) I now find pretty uninteresting bordering on unreadable. The books I have enjoyed most recently seem to be written mostly by women. Not a conscious choice on my part, BTW.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I haven't read a word of it but this would almost certainly be my opinion if I ever do.
I enjoyed reading Lord of the Rings (once I made it past the first halves of the first two books) but it's a really odd choice when making the argument for concise writing.
I didn't think anyone was arguing about concise writing. They were arguing about good writing. The two can be very different things.
I was responding to:
"A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words."
Judging by Whitty on R4 this am, a tightening of lockdown is incoming. Maybe even this evening at 5pm presser.
The rules in this lockdown are the same as they were in the original lockdown aren't they? Stay home, non-essential shops and workplaces closed, schools closed unless keyworker/vulnerable etc. Yet its clearly much much busier out there here on Teesside and supposedly much much busier in the smoke.
So what has changed? A combination of punter fatigue and government messaging. First time around it was You Must Stay At Home. This time its meh, you need to go to work as we aren't going to pay for you to stay home.
There is also the fact that a lot more effort has been put into trying to keep open. In the first lockdown, most coffee shops etc just shut. Now they are open.
And why is that? Because the financial support simply isn't there. Why is Daughter still doing takeaways (and very safely too)? Because the financial support now is very much less, what has been promised still hasn't been paid, furlough is less than it was and the bills still need paying.
Both sons work in food shops. One has been sent home to isolate because a co-worker caught Covid and so he's waiting for a test to see whether he's got it. I pray daily that he doesn't because it puts my husband and other son at risk. But at least his employer is still paying him. Others are not so fortunate. Sunak's meanness with support is undermining what is necessary on the health side.
If the government imposes more restrictions without providing more support then it will simply lead to a greater economic collapse than we're already facing.
I assume your daughter structured her business as a limited company. If she were S/E it may have been different. I do think there is so much unfairness in all this and Sunak will not escape criticism over it. The difference between the money thrown at some S/E people compared to the paltry sums/nothing/loans to those who are ltd (though regard themselves as self employed) is extraordinary.
Our tax/corporate structure system needs looking at. The concept of setting up a company to pay low wages and high dividends for owner mangers has nearly run its course, and led to this issue.
And I say that as an accountant, which has been setting these things up for nigh on 20 years.
She runs a pub/restaurant. Of course it's a limited company - as I imagine most other similar businesses are.
A very different proposition to a writer, say, setting up a limited company to receive his/her earnings.
The reason the support is less is because Sunak has deliberately cut back on the support for the hospitality sector despite it bearing the brunt of the restrictions and for longer than most other sectors. It's almost as if they wish to close it down permanently.
One for the PB braintrust, who was the Baroness bitching about not getting the second vaccine dose? Can't remember now and can't find the news article that she wrote.
Joan Bakewell.
Bu that's the point. There's no difference in terms of structure between that ' a proper business', providing services and goods to third parties, and what amounts to freelance individuals which often supply subcontracted labour only services to very few individuals. IR35 was supposed to help, but it's failed.
The remuneration from will most likely have been set up the same. Low wages, and high (if available) dividends. It's a huge level of 'disguised' wages, and increasingly doesn't fit, and leads to issues like the support for employees but not directors.
The way to have got around this would have been to provide support for dividends for small business owners, but that would have opened a can of worms in other areas.
Just catching up on some of the literature comments below. Frankly I'm astounded that some people are belittling the Harry Potter books.
Such comments are an insult to the works JK Rowling plagiarised.
Plagiarism is a well-known feature of some of our greatest authors. Hamlet was plagiarised from an earlier play by Thomas Kyd, which was plagiarised from a story by Francois de Belleforest, an improved translation of a work by Matteo Bandello, which itself drew from Danish mythology.
And some quite rubbish authors have been plagiarists too - Daphne du Maurier, who made a successful career stealing other people's plots, springs to mind.
Borrowing ideas is not plagiarism. Textual replication or close copying is.
Interesting thread from observers on the ground. The utter lack of federal forces or even basic event security cannot be anything other than deliberate. Which points quite firmly at it being an organised coup attempt.
If there really were 'machinations' to have no security at the Capitol, it surely points more to events there being an orchestration against Trump, not by him.
Where does that conclusion come from ?
"False Flag, False Flag" cometh the cry.
I've avoided calling this as a false flag - I have seen no evidence that it was one. However, since RP *has* brought the view that the lax security was deliberately orchestrated, I think it's fairly simple to ask who actually stood to gain from Trump's barmy army running amuck in the Capitol and who stood to lose.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
Those first two are my favourites! I am so middlebrow.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
100+ clandestine arrivals across the Channel yesterday. NF can't believe his luck.
Meanwhile Patel tells people not to talk on park benches.....
No wonder the tories want to postpone the locals.
Governments generally do badly in locals, delaying might not help them. In fact they likely would prefer them sooner rather than later, hence previously saying they would go ahead.
I thought it was interesting Whitty was in front of the media on his own this morning.
Being allowed to twist in the wind?
Whitty did used to have better confidence rating than the pols. The polling is three months out of date tho'.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
Those first two are my favourites! I am so middlebrow.
I think they are the best. Admittedly, I’ve only read two or three others.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
Really - all he has is someone who is going to lose their seat at the next election.
When he runs against them, its the tories who will be losing their seats.
The South of Scotland could be interestding. Full of retired geriatrics but also with its local industrues being hit by Brexit. The local fishermen really are squealing. I wonder what would happen if Mr Farage tried to tour Eyemouth?
Depends on the message. If its "We've won the Brexit battle, now to win the peace and fix this country" then yes, he may get hassled.
If it's "The establishment have ruined Brexit, we should have gone for the Norway option as I always said" then it may be different.
Yes we know that the Nigel was a leading advocate for "lets go WTO". But before that he was an open advocate for the Norway option: "Brexit, one of the key pillars of Brexit was doing what the Norwegians do, doing what the Faroese do, doing what the Icelanders do, taking back what is rightfully ours and managing it properly."
Brexiteers are so used to being lied to that I can't see why they can't have their position pivoted from EFTA to WTO and back to EFTA...
It's very simple to do the thought experiment on how Trumpers were and are so fired up over the election. Take everything you know about the election and imagine Trump actually was the declared winner. It literally would have been stolen from Biden.
Now simply reverse Biden/Trump and the MAGA reality delusion makes perfect sense.
Are the new administration acting as if they won a great victory?
Their primary concern seems to be revenge.
There is little talk about the things that might concern ordinary Americans. Jobs. Economy. etc.
Honestly I don;t expect that to change. Its essentially open season on Trumpists.
The new administration has yet to take office, so I'm not sure how you leap to such a conclusion.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
It is undoubtedly true that the main audience for LOTR is boys who haven’t had sex yet.
It’s up to you to decide whether you think that pejorative.
Nice try. But that's not what she said. It is popular with that audience and that's not pejorative.
But she said read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys. That is saying any an adult who likes it had the mind of a teenage boy. And that is clearly not meant positively. It is making a judgement that those who like it are like teenage boys, not merely that teenage boys like it.
So no, it isn't up to me if I think it was pejorative. It was.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
For me it would Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I know of no other writer who can weave such a dense, all encompassing impression of a scene as Marquez. And he seems to understand people better than almost any writer I can think of.
It's very simple to do the thought experiment on how Trumpers were and are so fired up over the election. Take everything you know about the election and imagine Trump actually was the declared winner. It literally would have been stolen from Biden.
Now simply reverse Biden/Trump and the MAGA reality delusion makes perfect sense.
Are the new administration acting as if they won a great victory?
Their primary concern seems to be revenge.
There is little talk about the things that might concern ordinary Americans. Jobs. Economy. etc.
Honestly I don;t expect that to change. Its essentially open season on Trumpists.
The new administration has yet to take office, so I'm not sure how you leap to such a conclusion.
Indeed. Especially as the talk is about a 2k rather than 600 bung.
Perry Anderson makes a claim that Powell is better, and Dance to the Music of Time is certainly more relevant to PB.
When I was a voracious reader I tried À la recherche du temps perdu and it defeated me after 70 pages, though 'tits like hunting horns' stuck with me. Otoh I read (some of the volumes several times) and loved Dance To The Music of Time; wily, old Powell knew his audience and doled it out in chunks.
If you like Powell see also Simon Raven Alms for Oblivion.
Does it really say 'tits like hunting horns' in Proust?
It's so long since I read Powell as a teenager - though I did reread Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy recently. What an arsehole the man was, and a snob - but oh he could write. How does Powell's whatever-ology compare?
I'd say Powell's not quite of the same class of virtuosity as Waugh but still very much of that rank. I believe Guy Crouchback represents Waugh's personal world view, and Waugh's wit sometimes just edges into the surreal, while Powell is more grounded and keeps himself concealed. Widmerpool is a creation for the ages.
Powell's memoirs 'To Keep the Ball Rolling' are fascinating. His description of Orwell's memorial service is one of the most moving things I've read. Exasperating as GO was and of an entirely different political persuasion, nevertheless Powell loved him.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
Really - all he has is someone who is going to lose their seat at the next election.
When he runs against them, its the tories who will be losing their seats.
The South of Scotland could be interestding. Full of retired geriatrics but also with its local industrues being hit by Brexit. The local fishermen really are squealing. I wonder what would happen if Mr Farage tried to tour Eyemouth?
Depends on the message. If its "We've won the Brexit battle, now to win the peace and fix this country" then yes, he may get hassled.
If it's "The establishment have ruined Brexit, we should have gone for the Norway option as I always said" then it may be different.
Yes we know that the Nigel was a leading advocate for "lets go WTO". But before that he was an open advocate for the Norway option: "Brexit, one of the key pillars of Brexit was doing what the Norwegians do, doing what the Faroese do, doing what the Icelanders do, taking back what is rightfully ours and managing it properly."
Brexiteers are so used to being lied to that I can't see why they can't have their position pivoted from EFTA to WTO and back to EFTA...
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
Great expectations was good. David Copperfield not so much.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I haven't read a word of it but this would almost certainly be my opinion if I ever do.
I enjoyed reading Lord of the Rings (once I made it past the first halves of the first two books) but it's a really odd choice when making the argument for concise writing.
I didn't think anyone was arguing about concise writing. They were arguing about good writing. The two can be very different things.
I was responding to:
"A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words."
Yes but that was Leon and what the hell does he know about anything to do with writing.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I haven't read a word of it but this would almost certainly be my opinion if I ever do.
I enjoyed reading Lord of the Rings (once I made it past the first halves of the first two books) but it's a really odd choice when making the argument for concise writing.
I didn't think anyone was arguing about concise writing. They were arguing about good writing. The two can be very different things.
I was responding to:
"A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words."
Yes but that was Leon and what the hell does he know about anything to do with writing.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
But I bet there is a correlation between liking LOTR and voting for Brexit. By which I mean if you take the population of people who are readers of novels and they voted, say, X% Remain, then the sub-sample of those who like Tolkien would have voted Y% Remain and Y would be less than X. I'd put a grand on that without losing too much sleep.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
A Tale of Two Cities is great.
The first conversation Mrs. P and I ever had was a discussion of LOTR - she was reading it and I, rather fortuitously, had read it previously. I suspect any topic would have done though as we hit it off right away.
I've read it once since but tbh that's enough now - it's served its purpose in my life.
For me it would Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I know of no other writer who can weave such a dense, all encompassing impression of a scene as Marquez. And he seems to understand people better than almost any writer I can think of.
I'm roughly half way through Bowie's list of 100 favourite books. Lord there's some shite on there. Some great stuff too but some absolute clunkers.
Perry Anderson makes a claim that Powell is better, and Dance to the Music of Time is certainly more relevant to PB.
When I was a voracious reader I tried À la recherche du temps perdu and it defeated me after 70 pages, though 'tits like hunting horns' stuck with me. Otoh I read (some of the volumes several times) and loved Dance To The Music of Time; wily, old Powell knew his audience and doled it out in chunks.
If you like Powell see also Simon Raven Alms for Oblivion.
Does it really say 'tits like hunting horns' in Proust?
It's so long since I read Powell as a teenager - though I did reread Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy recently. What an arsehole the man was, and a snob - but oh he could write. How does Powell's whatever-ology compare?
I'd say Powell's not quite of the same class of virtuosity as Waugh but still very much of that rank. I believe Guy Crouchback represents Waugh's personal world view, and Waugh's wit sometimes just edges into the surreal, while Powell is more grounded and keeps himself concealed. Widmerpool is a creation for the ages.
Powell's memoirs 'To Keep the Ball Rolling' are fascinating. His description of Orwell's memorial service is one of the most moving things I've read. Exasperating as GO was and of an entirely different political persuasion, nevertheless Powell loved him.
Thanks. Crouchback is so Waugh himself - and very nasty with elements of society he didn't like. But obviously I ought to see if I have Powell in the bookcase and try him again.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
Those first two are my favourites! I am so middlebrow.
I think they are the best. Admittedly, I’ve only read two or three others.
Cycle free is being a terrible sexist snob about LOTR, but I agree with her about Dickens. He wrote brilliant vivid descriptive lines, and some good characters, but the plotting is so bad I give up fifty pages in at best. There are plot holes EVERYWHERE, and weird non sequiturs, and continuity errors - I suspect that part of the problem is that he wrote at such speed, and episodically - most of the books were originally written as serialised chapters for weekly magazines. He probably forgot what he wrote the previous week.
The only one I’ve read in toto was Oliver Twist. It was quite good, but I much prefer the musical.
Thomas Hardy is a vastly superior novelist. Terrifically sad. But so compelling.
In other news, support for Catalan independence continues to fall. The change from a hard-line, confrontational, right-wing government in Madrid to one run by the centre left that has focused on dialogue has led to a split in the Catalan separatist movement. There is even an outside chance the separatists may lose control of the Catalan parliament after next month's regional elections. https://twitter.com/RupertCocke/status/1348568129685901312
Confirms the PP Spanish government did the right thing in 2017 then refusing a legal independence referendum when support for Catalan independence was much higher and ignoring the Catalan nationalist government's declaration of a UDI.
Had they not done that Catalonia would now be an independent state not seeing support for independence fall
The Spanish government - whether PP, PSOE or whatever - has no legal right to allow a referendum on independence for any part of Spain. That is clearly set out in Spain's written constitution.
It's very simple to do the thought experiment on how Trumpers were and are so fired up over the election. Take everything you know about the election and imagine Trump actually was the declared winner. It literally would have been stolen from Biden.
Now simply reverse Biden/Trump and the MAGA reality delusion makes perfect sense.
Are the new administration acting as if they won a great victory?
Their primary concern seems to be revenge.
There is little talk about the things that might concern ordinary Americans. Jobs. Economy. etc.
Honestly I don;t expect that to change. Its essentially open season on Trumpists.
The new administration has yet to take office, so I'm not sure how you leap to such a conclusion.
I leap to that conclusion based on the evidence. Look at this website. four or five Trump threads. Thread on what a Biden administration might actually do? Nope.
Similarly Democrat politicians in the US. Delivering liberal solutions to America? Nope. Cutting down Trumpism in all its forms as they see it? Yes.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
A Tale of Two Cities is great.
The first conversation Mrs. P and I ever had was a discussion of LOTR - she was reading it and I, rather fortuitously, had read it previously. I suspect any topic would have done though as we hit it off right away.
I've read it once since but tbh that's enough now - it's served its purpose in my life.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
But I bet there is a correlation between liking LOTR and voting for Brexit. By which I mean if you take the population of people who are readers of novels and they voted, say, X% Remain, then the sub-sample of those who like Tolkien would have voted Y% Remain and Y would be less than X. I'd put a grand on that without losing too much sleep.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
But I bet there is a correlation between liking LOTR and voting for Brexit. By which I mean if you take the population of people who are readers of novels and they voted, say, X% Remain, then the sub-sample of those who like Tolkien would have voted Y% Remain and Y would be less than X. I'd put a grand on that without losing too much sleep.
Erm, if I understand your equation correctly then, unless you are claiming LOTR is not a novel, then Y must necessarily be equal to or less than X and it would only take one person in set Y to dislike LOTR for X to automatically always be less than X. In which case your grand and your sleep are assured.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
Those first two are my favourites! I am so middlebrow.
I think they are the best. Admittedly, I’ve only read two or three others.
Cycle free is being a terrible sexist snob about LOTR, but I agree with her about Dickens. He wrote brilliant vivid descriptive lines, and some good characters, but the plotting is so bad I give up fifty pages in at best. There are plot holes EVERYWHERE, and weird non sequiturs, and continuity errors - I suspect that part of the problem is that he wrote at such speed, and episodically - most of the books were originally written as serialised chapters for weekly magazines. He probably forgot what he wrote the previous week.
The only one I’ve read in toto was Oliver Twist. It was quite good, but I much prefer the musical.
Thomas Hardy is a vastly superior novelist. Terrifically sad. But so compelling.
I will never bear to reread Jude the Obscure. But such a sense of place. I was overjoyed to discover his birthplace on a recent hike down south, and wander around Bockhampton andf Stinsford, and discover what must be the Roman Road of his poem close to the house.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
I'm amazed how much people are ok with judging and insulting others based on their literature choices.
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
But I bet there is a correlation between liking LOTR and voting for Brexit. By which I mean if you take the population of people who are readers of novels and they voted, say, X% Remain, then the sub-sample of those who like Tolkien would have voted Y% Remain and Y would be less than X. I'd put a grand on that without losing too much sleep.
Your most embarrassing comment ever, and I’m including the one where you ‘tried to stop your son watching Top Gear’
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
Really - all he has is someone who is going to lose their seat at the next election.
When he runs against them, its the tories who will be losing their seats.
The South of Scotland could be interestding. Full of retired geriatrics but also with its local industrues being hit by Brexit. The local fishermen really are squealing. I wonder what would happen if Mr Farage tried to tour Eyemouth?
Depends on the message. If its "We've won the Brexit battle, now to win the peace and fix this country" then yes, he may get hassled.
If it's "The establishment have ruined Brexit, we should have gone for the Norway option as I always said" then it may be different.
Yes we know that the Nigel was a leading advocate for "lets go WTO". But before that he was an open advocate for the Norway option: "Brexit, one of the key pillars of Brexit was doing what the Norwegians do, doing what the Faroese do, doing what the Icelanders do, taking back what is rightfully ours and managing it properly."
Brexiteers are so used to being lied to that I can't see why they can't have their position pivoted from EFTA to WTO and back to EFTA...
Canvas the folk there a lot do you?
It's actually a very good point RP makes - whether Ms Ballantine can portray her former SCUP comrades as the November, or rather Ne'erday, Criminals of the Stab in the Back.
I think it's time for the government to push the red button that says "do not push". We have got to the stage where we need to spend £10-12bn over the next few weeks keeping everyone at home by closing all the restaurants, Amazon and other miscellaneous services. The only things open should be supermarkets, greengrocers, hospitals, doctors and pharmacies along with the associated parts of the supply chains. People should be allowed out twice a week with a permit and even dog walkers should be put on the clock for 30 mins in a designated zone.
We're at a stage where 4,000 people per day (and rising) are entering the NHS funnel, the only way that they can be given medical care is for cancer patients, those who suffer from heart attacks and strokes and other time precious diseases are going to be given no resources. Those people can't wait for treatment and the way to make the virus go away is for everyone to stay home and wait for their turn to be vaccinated.
The government is being penny wise and pound foolish because we're stuck with this half lockdown, premature deaths, overloaded NHS to save a few billion pounds by keeping a few extra businesses open rather than giving out grant money for maybe two months while we get the nation immunised.
It's very simple to do the thought experiment on how Trumpers were and are so fired up over the election. Take everything you know about the election and imagine Trump actually was the declared winner. It literally would have been stolen from Biden.
Now simply reverse Biden/Trump and the MAGA reality delusion makes perfect sense.
Are the new administration acting as if they won a great victory?
Their primary concern seems to be revenge.
There is little talk about the things that might concern ordinary Americans. Jobs. Economy. etc.
Honestly I don;t expect that to change. Its essentially open season on Trumpists.
The new administration has yet to take office, so I'm not sure how you leap to such a conclusion.
I leap to that conclusion based on the evidence. Look at this website. four or five Trump threads. Thread on what a Biden administration might actually do? Nope.
Similarly Democrat politicians in the US. Delivering liberal solutions to America? Nope. Cutting down Trumpism in all its forms as they see it? Yes.
Well, yes. Because Trumpism is all about cutting down democracy. It's more important to focus on the defence of democracy than, say, focus on marginal rates of tax.
You want the conversation to move on because you're embarrassed about what your fella has done, but it doesn't really work that way. Sorry about that.
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
Have you tried Great Expectations. I think that’s his most “accessible”. Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
Those first two are my favourites! I am so middlebrow.
I think they are the best. Admittedly, I’ve only read two or three others.
Cycle free is being a terrible sexist snob about LOTR, but I agree with her about Dickens. He wrote brilliant vivid descriptive lines, and some good characters, but the plotting is so bad I give up fifty pages in at best. There are plot holes EVERYWHERE, and weird non sequiturs, and continuity errors - I suspect that part of the problem is that he wrote at such speed, and episodically - most of the books were originally written as serialised chapters for weekly magazines. He probably forgot what he wrote the previous week.
The only one I’ve read in toto was Oliver Twist. It was quite good, but I much prefer the musical.
Thomas Hardy is a vastly superior novelist. Terrifically sad. But so compelling.
Hardy is mostly good (though I still have mental scars from having The Woodlanders set as an O level text.
Re Dickens and plots: I've not especially noticed that his plots are terrible but could it be to some extent a product of him writing them serially and only just meeting the episode deadlines each month?
Also, have you read Our Mutual Friend? That's got a great plot.
I was going to say Shakespeare's plots were often pretty poor but then... Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet,...
And I know no-one apart from myself who routinely wears a mask outdoors as they do in much of Asia and now elsewhere.
I am convinced this virus spreads outdoors. Undoubtedly less readily than indoors but nevertheless I'm sure it does. Again, as you would expect from an airborne virus which spreads by aerosol as well as droplet.
We are, and there's no other way to put this, f-ing stupid in this country. Nerys claims to be a nurse. What hope is there?
I recall early on an ITU nurse saying that she didn't see how it was possible to 'BE SAFE' when she couldn't 'see' the virus.
I mean, that's the level of f-ing ignorance with which we are dealing.
Still waiting for those superior literary skills to manifest themselves.
Oh are you? Read one of my bestselling books. But it doesn't sound to me like you'd recognise it even if you were hit over the head by Lord of the Rings.
I keep the writing clean and simple on here. Actually I do in my books. Only Mike Smithson of the thread writers knows how to do that. A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words.
Wait, are you citing LOTR as good writing? JFC.
By some measures it is the most popular novel ever written, anywhere on the planet, and also the most loved. It has also been hugely influential on popular AND elite culture. You see its influence everywhere
Why? Because it is an inspired piece of sustained human imagination, probably unexampled, AND it has a superb, mythic, driving narrative
It’s not entirely my cup of tea but I can still recognise it as quite exceptional. Anyone who doesn’t simply reveals their own idiocy. Sorry
I'll bite.
It's unreadable rubbish, mostly read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys.
Except a poll a couple of years ago showed it is read by more women than men. And if it is unreadable then how come it is one of the most read books of the twentieth century. Perhaps your dislike and inability to read it reflects more on yourself than on the book.
No doubt it does. I view that poll with some scepticism I must say. The only people I have ever heard praising it or talking about the film have been men and boys.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
For me it would Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I know of no other writer who can weave such a dense, all encompassing impression of a scene as Marquez. And he seems to understand people better than almost any writer I can think of.
The books I enjoy most are the ones that put me somewhere and give me the sense I am there feeling, seeing and hearing it all directly. That's the kind of writing I love. Laurie Lee was a master of this. Hemingway pulled it off once or twice. Tolkien did it with his weather. Tolstoy nails it in Anna Karenina. All very different styles, but the same effect - for me. And that's the thing. It's all very personal, isn't it?
Comments
Don't confuse lengthy with prolix. For any bit of legal text that you personally don't see the point of, the probability is that the draftsman can explain why it is there and that the effect of the text would be different were it not there.
Mighty fine read though having said that.
A very different proposition to a writer, say, setting up a limited company to receive his/her earnings.
The reason the support is less is because Sunak has deliberately cut back on the support for the hospitality sector despite it bearing the brunt of the restrictions and for longer than most other sectors. It's almost as if they wish to close it down permanently. Joan Bakewell.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-new-party-unveils-23297345
Farage has his first elected official.
or Kaboom, as its otherwise known.
This is going to go through the tories like a dose of salts.
Agree about Raven, discovered him along with Flashman in the school library, a most fruitful time of my life. Shame about the moderate exam results.
You thinking of Anna Karenina first line wise? Correct, if so (one of its problems being it works exactly as well if stood on its head).
edit:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9105299/DAME-JOAN-BAKEWELL-vaccine-U-turn-left-oldies-limbo.html
Yes its all in good fun, but in saying you dislike it is really ok to insult those who do? And no people who dislike such things shouldn't be insulted either, but some people freely admit to dismissing entire genres of fiction, based on very narrow views of it, as a sign of superiority. And it is superiority because it inevitably involves judging, negatively, those who like them, rather than simply criticising the genre or work.
I've always thought that rather strange.
The remuneration from will most likely have been set up the same. Low wages, and high (if available) dividends. It's a huge level of 'disguised' wages, and increasingly doesn't fit, and leads to issues like the support for employees but not directors.
The way to have got around this would have been to provide support for dividends for small business owners, but that would have opened a can of worms in other areas.
By the same token I can't abide Dickens. Completely unreadable and believe me I've tried. Nor can I cope with many Russian novels - though I adore Anna Karenina. OTOH I love Vanity Fair - which is one of the best novels ever to my mind - and Middlemarch, Jane Eyre - and many 19th century French writers such as Balzac.
The one writer whose novels and short stories I would have with me on a desert island is William Trevor. One of the very finest writers ever.
No wonder the tories want to postpone the locals.
Arwen is one of the things that annoys me most about the movies. Jackson argued that Tom Bombadil didn’t add to the story, yet he added a load of stuff about Arwen, purely to get Liv Tyler on screen and add a bloody love story to it.
Such comments are an insult to the works JK Rowling plagiarised.
I risk my capital every day in my business, employing people and adding to GB gdp and the treasury; it's only right that I get a small tax benefit from that. Seeing others use it just to disguise employment makes me mad.
Incidentally, as much as I lose out personally, I'm quite pleased that the govt hasn't made LTD company directors whol on lost dividends. Biz is a risk; it needs to be recognised as such from all sides.
Once the election is over, an MSP is free to follow his or her own conscience.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9105299/DAME-JOAN-BAKEWELL-vaccine-U-turn-left-oldies-limbo.html
Drafting legislation is a whole skill in itself.
Being allowed to twist in the wind?
It’s up to you to decide whether you think that pejorative.
And some quite rubbish authors have been plagiarists too - Daphne du Maurier, who made a successful career stealing other people's plots, springs to mind.
Had they not done that Catalonia would now be an independent state not seeing support for independence fall
I see Simon Dolan, who signed the letter on the communist WHO conspiracy, was also a Brexit donor who moved to Monaco.
The reason I say this is that the British Library are currently publishing collections of stories by genre writers from the 19th and early 20th century. They now have extensive and expanding series for Supernatural/Ghost stories, Science Fiction and Detective/Crime.
What is interesting is that each collection of stories includes a short biography of each writer. What is amazing when reading these stories is how successful and popular they were when they were writing. There are science fiction writers who were considered more successful and influential than HG Wells, Ghost story writers who sold far more and were better known than MR James.
And yet these writers, many of whom wrote dozens of books in addition to short stories and serials are almost entirely unknown today. This is certainly not because of their writing being any way inferior either. In many cases they were considered at the time better than some of those authors who have lived on. And yet in spite of selling vast numbers of books and periodicals, they simply failed to survive in popular culture into the later part of the 20th century.
It is all rather depressing for any aspiring or even successful writer today.
It’s also true that they like - or liked - Top Gear. I think it must actually be the unabashed masculinity, plus the fact it could be very funny. Plus the fact that a LOT of women are total petrolheads
I think that’s his most “accessible”.
Then, if you liked that, I think you would want to graduate to Bleak House.
A Tale of Two Cities is garbage.
The health benefits are accruing mainly to the old, the young are paying the bill.
If the old want the young to lockdown, then they need to pay. That should be made much more explicit in the compact.
The affluent old (especially on pb.com) are living in huge houses, getting enormous Waitrose deliveries, trading their share portfolios, bragging about skiing holidays and ... telling everyone else it is absolutely no problem to lock down harder.
It should be much more explicit that if we are all in this together, and if the young are making sacrifices for the old then there needs to be big pay back for the young.
In some parts of the world, it's a standard chat up line.
"A thread should have one point made succinctly and cleanly.
Less is more. Heck, even The Great Gatsby is only 47,000 words."
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/ixbnz74wqx/YouGov_CoronaConfidence_Tracker_W.pdf
Admittedly, I’ve only read two or three others.
If it's "The establishment have ruined Brexit, we should have gone for the Norway option as I always said" then it may be different.
Yes we know that the Nigel was a leading advocate for "lets go WTO". But before that he was an open advocate for the Norway option: "Brexit, one of the key pillars of Brexit was doing what the Norwegians do, doing what the Faroese do, doing what the Icelanders do, taking back what is rightfully ours and managing it properly."
Brexiteers are so used to being lied to that I can't see why they can't have their position pivoted from EFTA to WTO and back to EFTA...
But she said read and admired by those with the minds of teenage boys. That is saying any an adult who likes it had the mind of a teenage boy. And that is clearly not meant positively. It is making a judgement that those who like it are like teenage boys, not merely that teenage boys like it.
So no, it isn't up to me if I think it was pejorative. It was.
Powell's memoirs 'To Keep the Ball Rolling' are fascinating. His description of Orwell's memorial service is one of the most moving things I've read. Exasperating as GO was and of an entirely different political persuasion, nevertheless Powell loved him.
The first conversation Mrs. P and I ever had was a discussion of LOTR - she was reading it and I, rather fortuitously, had read it previously. I suspect any topic would have done though as we hit it off right away.
I've read it once since but tbh that's enough now - it's served its purpose in my life.
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/david-bowie-favourite-books-reading-list/
The only one I’ve read in toto was Oliver Twist. It was quite good, but I much prefer the musical.
Thomas Hardy is a vastly superior novelist. Terrifically sad. But so compelling.
Similarly Democrat politicians in the US. Delivering liberal solutions to America? Nope. Cutting down Trumpism in all its forms as they see it? Yes.
A reoccurrence is hard to deal with as I know.
Seems harder in many ways than getting first diagnosed.
We're at a stage where 4,000 people per day (and rising) are entering the NHS funnel, the only way that they can be given medical care is for cancer patients, those who suffer from heart attacks and strokes and other time precious diseases are going to be given no resources. Those people can't wait for treatment and the way to make the virus go away is for everyone to stay home and wait for their turn to be vaccinated.
The government is being penny wise and pound foolish because we're stuck with this half lockdown, premature deaths, overloaded NHS to save a few billion pounds by keeping a few extra businesses open rather than giving out grant money for maybe two months while we get the nation immunised.
It's more important to focus on the defence of democracy than, say, focus on marginal rates of tax.
You want the conversation to move on because you're embarrassed about what your fella has done, but it doesn't really work that way. Sorry about that.
Re Dickens and plots: I've not especially noticed that his plots are terrible but could it be to some extent a product of him writing them serially and only just meeting the episode deadlines each month?
Also, have you read Our Mutual Friend? That's got a great plot.
I was going to say Shakespeare's plots were often pretty poor but then... Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet,...