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The China Peril – politicalbetting.com

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  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
    UK made the pound a power the world around. With the "indirect" empire (for example in South America) being WAY more profitable than the real, red-colored Empire outside the British Isles,

    USA relied on Dollar Diplomacy. And now China is relying on Yen Hegemony.
    Yuan, not Yen.
    I once got a nasty surprise looking at my credit card statement after I'd booked what seemed to be an incredibly cheap flight to Shanghai and discovered those two both use the same symbol.
    They are etymologically the same are they not? Like pound and lira.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    Trump being such a great example of traditional Christian family values.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    We already know where India will position itself.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Re: 25th amendment & role of cabinet, I find the announced, impending resignation of US Secretary of Commerce Elaine Chao, to be very interesting.

    OF course it is clear, personal & political statement against Trumpsky's incitement to a mob to attack the US Capitol, Congress and the Constitution. But it's more than that.

    For starters, note that Ms Chao, is the wife of Mitch McConnell. And that she has an extensive professional background in a) banking, labor (from management side) and banking (her father was a master mariner who founded a shipping business; and b) high-level appointed office in Republican administrations. She served under Reagan as Chair of Federal Maritime Commission, under Bush the Elder as Secretary of Transportation, then as Peace Corps Director. She was Bush the Younger's Secretary of Labor for the duration of his administration; the Washington Post said she was "widely criticized for walking away from its regulatory function across a range of issues, including wage and hour law and workplace safety".

    Likewise she has served as Secretary of Transportation for the duration (almost) of Trumpky's term. Note that IF The Donald had followed through on his pledge for a national infrastructure program, the US DOT would have been a KEY department and a beehive of activity. However, no such thing occurred - methinks by design. NOT Trumpsky's design - Mitch McConnell's.

    Because Trumpsky didn't give a damn about transportation or infrastructure (beyond his own). Whereas McConnell did and does. Of course billions and billions get spent even under a lean budget, but that's for (some) necessities PLUS contracts for favored districts and contractors and contributors, the lubricant of Beltway politics. It's keeping the overall level as LOW as possible, that's what Mitch wants.

    For this purpose, Elaine was perfect. Because she there, not to get things done for Trumpsky and the country (especially the MAGA half) but rather to keep things from happening (such as major investment in fast rail in California) in the interest of her husband and the big business wing of the GOP.

    Now, mission accomplished, Secretary Chao is resigning - yet again in service to her husband Mitch's career. I have no doubt that she sincerely deplores the mob attack, and is a one on this with her husband. At the same time, he's aligned himself with the Realo wing of the Republican Party versus the Trumpsky Fundi wing AND helped set the stage for working in some fashion (as yet to be determined) with President Biden.

    Fact that Democrats will have razor-thin margin in the US Senate - as long as VP Harris is in the chair anyway - will NOT mean that McConnell is chopped liver. Far from it! He may in fact provide critical votes needed to pass key legislation for Biden, especially if & when there is significant Democratic dissent (and won't take much).

    The way Mitch McConnell has played Trump has been amazing. Nearly everyone else who tried to work with Trump has been destroyed in the process, yet Mitch got nearly everything he wanted, and ended up destroying Trump.

    I always wondered how these incredibly uncharismatic people like him and Schumer (and to a lesser extent, Pelosi) manage to make it to these top jobs and hang on to them for so long, I guess they're just insanely great strategists.
    I have always been supremely impressed with how effective McConnell has been at implementing his agenda. Much of that agenda, and particularly his emphasis on power for the sake of power, I disagree with. But you cannot but admire his ability to control the agenda.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    British retailers have expressed concern at new trade barriers being applied after last month's trade deal.

    Dozens now believe they will be paying taxes on exports and imports of certain types of food and clothing that are not fully made in Britain.
    There are also signs that traders are struggling with new paperwork requirements.

    Some parcel companies have suspended road deliveries to Europe over complex processes and customs data.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    TimT said:

    Re: 25th amendment & role of cabinet, I find the announced, impending resignation of US Secretary of Commerce Elaine Chao, to be very interesting.

    OF course it is clear, personal & political statement against Trumpsky's incitement to a mob to attack the US Capitol, Congress and the Constitution. But it's more than that.

    For starters, note that Ms Chao, is the wife of Mitch McConnell. And that she has an extensive professional background in a) banking, labor (from management side) and banking (her father was a master mariner who founded a shipping business; and b) high-level appointed office in Republican administrations. She served under Reagan as Chair of Federal Maritime Commission, under Bush the Elder as Secretary of Transportation, then as Peace Corps Director. She was Bush the Younger's Secretary of Labor for the duration of his administration; the Washington Post said she was "widely criticized for walking away from its regulatory function across a range of issues, including wage and hour law and workplace safety".

    Likewise she has served as Secretary of Transportation for the duration (almost) of Trumpky's term. Note that IF The Donald had followed through on his pledge for a national infrastructure program, the US DOT would have been a KEY department and a beehive of activity. However, no such thing occurred - methinks by design. NOT Trumpsky's design - Mitch McConnell's.

    Because Trumpsky didn't give a damn about transportation or infrastructure (beyond his own). Whereas McConnell did and does. Of course billions and billions get spent even under a lean budget, but that's for (some) necessities PLUS contracts for favored districts and contractors and contributors, the lubricant of Beltway politics. It's keeping the overall level as LOW as possible, that's what Mitch wants.

    For this purpose, Elaine was perfect. Because she there, not to get things done for Trumpsky and the country (especially the MAGA half) but rather to keep things from happening (such as major investment in fast rail in California) in the interest of her husband and the big business wing of the GOP.

    Now, mission accomplished, Secretary Chao is resigning - yet again in service to her husband Mitch's career. I have no doubt that she sincerely deplores the mob attack, and is a one on this with her husband. At the same time, he's aligned himself with the Realo wing of the Republican Party versus the Trumpsky Fundi wing AND helped set the stage for working in some fashion (as yet to be determined) with President Biden.

    Fact that Democrats will have razor-thin margin in the US Senate - as long as VP Harris is in the chair anyway - will NOT mean that McConnell is chopped liver. Far from it! He may in fact provide critical votes needed to pass key legislation for Biden, especially if & when there is significant Democratic dissent (and won't take much).

    The way Mitch McConnell has played Trump has been amazing. Nearly everyone else who tried to work with Trump has been destroyed in the process, yet Mitch got nearly everything he wanted, and ended up destroying Trump.

    I always wondered how these incredibly uncharismatic people like him and Schumer (and to a lesser extent, Pelosi) manage to make it to these top jobs and hang on to them for so long, I guess they're just insanely great strategists.
    I have always been supremely impressed with how effective McConnell has been at implementing his agenda. Much of that agenda, and particularly his emphasis on power for the sake of power, I disagree with. But you cannot but admire his ability to control the agenda.
    And SSI is surely on the money. Or, rather, McConnell will be on the money - since as he says the Reps will be in a critical position to determine whether much legislation passes, whenever there is someone unhappy on the Dem side, and will be able to sell the actions of his side in return for a continuing supply of pork to his key allies. Real House of Cards stuff.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,376
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    A thoroughly depressing header. Hard to see a change in approach to meaningfully go against that odious regime happening in my lifetime.

    Has anyone any glimmers of hope that the regime is not as strong as it appears?

    Dark dreams everyone.

    Sorry about that.

    What is even worse is that evil regimes like China, Iran, Russia etc will take comfort from what has been happening in Washington.

    I wish I could bring you good news.

    That's a powerful indictment, Cyclefree. I think that a declining population of working age will ultimately bring China's economic miracle to a halt, and generate all sorts of internal pressures. Of course, the regime may became even more aggressive as a result.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    On topic from CNN:

    China is thriving in the chaos of the US presidential transition

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/07/china/china-us-hong-kong-transition-biden-trump-intl-hnk/index.html

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    New research suggests that Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine can protect against a mutation found in two contagious variants of the coronavirus that erupted in Britain and South Africa, AP reports.

    Those variants are causing global concern. They both share a common mutation called N501Y, a slight alteration on one spot of the spike protein that coats the virus. That change is believed to be the reason they can spread so easily.

    Most of the vaccines being rolled out around the world train the body to recognize that spike protein and fight it. Pfizer teamed with researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston for laboratory tests to see if the mutation affected its vaccine’s ability to do so.

    They used blood samples from 20 people who received the vaccine, made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech, during a large study of the shots. Antibodies from those vaccine recipients successfully fended off the virus in lab dishes, according to the study posted late Thursday on an online site for researchers.

    The study is preliminary and has not yet been reviewed by experts, a key step for medical research.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    A thoroughly depressing header. Hard to see a change in approach to meaningfully go against that odious regime happening in my lifetime.

    Has anyone any glimmers of hope that the regime is not as strong as it appears?

    Dark dreams everyone.

    Sorry about that.

    What is even worse is that evil regimes like China, Iran, Russia etc will take comfort from what has been happening in Washington.

    I wish I could bring you good news.

    That's a powerful indictment, Cyclefree. I think that a declining population of working age will ultimately bring China's economic miracle to a halt, and generate all sorts of internal pressures. Of course, the regime may became even more aggressive as a result.
    Yes.

    And with a leader other than Xi, I think China would have mellowed into middle age: it would have consumed of more what it produced, it would have got fat and rich and comfortable and keen to avoid changes that might inconvenience it. It would probably have edged slowly and surely towards something that looked like a democracy.

    It would, simply, have become a bigger Japan or Singapore or Taiwan.

    But instead it has Xi, a man with China's national destiny on his mind. And if growth stumbles, he'll look for external enemies to shore up his regime.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Great piece @Cyclefree. IMO China is going to be one of the world’s biggest problems this coming decade.

    They are too big economically to be cut off or affected by sanctions, and have quietly spent the past few years getting their tentacles into many developing nations and international bodies. Many Western countries and industries now believe they have no choice but to deal with China and its demands, for fear of cutting off such a large market.

    The opportunity in the UK starts with the fall of Hong Kong, and the chance to take a chunk of their financial services trade that would otherwise go towards Shanghai or other regional centres. HK citizens are now free to settle in the U.K., bringing a huge range of skills with them as they do so.

    It was not good to see the EU agreement with China, but the UK can and should be at the forefront of the international push back against the Chinese regime.
  • That is what could really send Trump to jail.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    Percentage of population vaccinated:

    Israel 18.0%
    UAE 7.7%
    Bahrain 4.9%
    UK 2.2%
    USA 1.9%
    Denmark 1.4%
    Russia 0.6%
    Canada 0.5%
    Italy 0.5%
    Germany 0.5%
    Spain 0.5%
    Estonia 0.5%
    Portugal 0.4%
    Saudi Arabia 0.4%
    China 0.3%
    Norway 0.2%
    France 0.1%

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/
  • Cruz at least sparing on the thoughts (as he so often is)

    https://twitter.com/mannyfidel/status/1347421608483446787?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Andy_JS said:

    Percentage of population vaccinated:

    Israel 18.0%
    UAE 7.7%
    Bahrain 4.9%
    UK 2.2%
    USA 1.9%
    Denmark 1.4%
    Russia 0.6%
    Canada 0.5%

    Back above the USA, even with the figures slightly out of date. It may not seem so, to listen to the local U.K. media, but they’re doing very well in the early stages of the vaccine rollout - with only two much smaller countries and one tiny one ahead.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited January 2021
    Is this headline a case of fiddling while Rome burns?

    To-days press are all having fun running stories about those of our leaders who sucked up to Trump but are now retreating as fast as their legs (or tongues) will take them. Gove and Johnson seem to be at the forefront of extricating themselves from the deepest recesses of his backside.

    But they are by no means alone......

    This has all the appeal of the Russian show trials and it's a game for any number of players.

    It seems Sadiq Khan john Bercow and Theresa May are three who kept their dignity. Well done those three!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    Scott_xP said:
    Marketing consultants, apparently.....
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021
    A very interesting Washington Post article linked to here.
    If I was Trump I would be collecting my family now, and making plans to leave well before the 19th.

    https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1347407963934363649
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    IanB2 said:

    New research suggests that Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine can protect against a mutation found in two contagious variants of the coronavirus that erupted in Britain and South Africa, AP reports.

    Those variants are causing global concern. They both share a common mutation called N501Y, a slight alteration on one spot of the spike protein that coats the virus. That change is believed to be the reason they can spread so easily.

    Most of the vaccines being rolled out around the world train the body to recognize that spike protein and fight it. Pfizer teamed with researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston for laboratory tests to see if the mutation affected its vaccine’s ability to do so.

    They used blood samples from 20 people who received the vaccine, made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech, during a large study of the shots. Antibodies from those vaccine recipients successfully fended off the virus in lab dishes, according to the study posted late Thursday on an online site for researchers.

    The study is preliminary and has not yet been reviewed by experts, a key step for medical research.

    Link to the preprint:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.07.425740v1

    Note they tested only the mutation common to the SA and UK variants, and not yet one of the concerning SA mutations. But that will no doubt be next, and I’m fairly optimistic.
    I speculated (as did scientists who far better understand this stuff) that the vaccine immune response is possibly more protective than that generated by having been infected. Finders crossed that will continue to be borne out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    New research suggests that Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine can protect against a mutation found in two contagious variants of the coronavirus that erupted in Britain and South Africa, AP reports.

    Those variants are causing global concern. They both share a common mutation called N501Y, a slight alteration on one spot of the spike protein that coats the virus. That change is believed to be the reason they can spread so easily.

    Most of the vaccines being rolled out around the world train the body to recognize that spike protein and fight it. Pfizer teamed with researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston for laboratory tests to see if the mutation affected its vaccine’s ability to do so.

    They used blood samples from 20 people who received the vaccine, made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech, during a large study of the shots. Antibodies from those vaccine recipients successfully fended off the virus in lab dishes, according to the study posted late Thursday on an online site for researchers.

    The study is preliminary and has not yet been reviewed by experts, a key step for medical research.

    Link to the preprint:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.07.425740v1

    Note they tested only the mutation common to the SA and UK variants, and not yet one of the concerning SA mutations. But that will no doubt be next, and I’m fairly optimistic.
    I speculated (as did scientists who far better understand this stuff) that the vaccine immune response is possibly more protective than that generated by having been infected. Finders crossed that will continue to be borne out.
    Thanks for posting these studies. Hopefully we manage to squash this damn thing before a vaccine-resistant strain gets out.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021

    "A law-enforcement official who trains with US forces believes someone interfered with the proper deployment of officers around Congress.

    The French police official said they believed that an investigation would find that someone interfered with the deployment of additional federal law-enforcement officials on the perimeter of the Capitol complex; the official has direct knowledge of the proper procedures for security of the facility.

    The security of Congress is entrusted to the US Capitol Police, a federal agency that answers to Congress.

    It is routine for the Capitol Police to coordinate with the federal Secret Service and the Park Police and local police in Washington, DC, before large demonstrations. The National Guard, commanded by the Department of Defense, is often on standby too.

    On Wednesday, however, that coordination was late or absent.

    "You cannot tell me I don't know what they should have done. I can fly to Washington tomorrow and do that job, just as any police official in Washington can fly to Paris and do mine," the official said. The official directs public security in a central Paris police district filled with government buildings and tourist sites.

    "These are not subtle principles" for managing demonstrations, "and they transfer to every situation," the official said. "This is why we train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored."

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:
    With a New Sombre Tone Today is the day Trump became President - American Political Columnists
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    New research suggests that Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine can protect against a mutation found in two contagious variants of the coronavirus that erupted in Britain and South Africa, AP reports.

    Those variants are causing global concern. They both share a common mutation called N501Y, a slight alteration on one spot of the spike protein that coats the virus. That change is believed to be the reason they can spread so easily.

    Most of the vaccines being rolled out around the world train the body to recognize that spike protein and fight it. Pfizer teamed with researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston for laboratory tests to see if the mutation affected its vaccine’s ability to do so.

    They used blood samples from 20 people who received the vaccine, made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech, during a large study of the shots. Antibodies from those vaccine recipients successfully fended off the virus in lab dishes, according to the study posted late Thursday on an online site for researchers.

    The study is preliminary and has not yet been reviewed by experts, a key step for medical research.

    Link to the preprint:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.07.425740v1

    Note they tested only the mutation common to the SA and UK variants, and not yet one of the concerning SA mutations. But that will no doubt be next, and I’m fairly optimistic.
    I speculated (as did scientists who far better understand this stuff) that the vaccine immune response is possibly more protective than that generated by having been infected. Finders crossed that will continue to be borne out.
    Thanks for posting these studies. Hopefully we manage to squash this damn thing before a vaccine-resistant strain gets out.
    I wouldn't worry too much: the mRNA revolution that comes out of CV19 is going to change the world - and our treatment of infectious diseases - in a profoundly positive way.

    Don't forget the Pfizer vaccine was designed in a day, at the very start of the pandemic.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    edited January 2021
    AP Update - Warnock +79K .. Ossoff +41K .. 98%+ reporting.

    ............................................................................................

    Excellent insight from Politico on how the DEMS flipped the November losses in the Georgia Senate races two months later :

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/warnock-ossoff-flipped-senate-georgia-456310
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    New research suggests that Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine can protect against a mutation found in two contagious variants of the coronavirus that erupted in Britain and South Africa, AP reports.

    Those variants are causing global concern. They both share a common mutation called N501Y, a slight alteration on one spot of the spike protein that coats the virus. That change is believed to be the reason they can spread so easily.

    Most of the vaccines being rolled out around the world train the body to recognize that spike protein and fight it. Pfizer teamed with researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston for laboratory tests to see if the mutation affected its vaccine’s ability to do so.

    They used blood samples from 20 people who received the vaccine, made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech, during a large study of the shots. Antibodies from those vaccine recipients successfully fended off the virus in lab dishes, according to the study posted late Thursday on an online site for researchers.

    The study is preliminary and has not yet been reviewed by experts, a key step for medical research.

    Link to the preprint:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.07.425740v1

    Note they tested only the mutation common to the SA and UK variants, and not yet one of the concerning SA mutations. But that will no doubt be next, and I’m fairly optimistic.
    I speculated (as did scientists who far better understand this stuff) that the vaccine immune response is possibly more protective than that generated by having been infected. Finders crossed that will continue to be borne out.
    Thanks for posting these studies. Hopefully we manage to squash this damn thing before a vaccine-resistant strain gets out.
    I wouldn't worry too much: the mRNA revolution that comes out of CV19 is going to change the world - and our treatment of infectious diseases - in a profoundly positive way.

    Don't forget the Pfizer vaccine was designed in a day, at the very start of the pandemic.
    Good to hear. The pandemic has certainly led to a lot of innovation, and accelerated changes accross a large number of industries. Necessity being the mother of invention appears to still hold true.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221

    Cruz at least sparing on the thoughts (as he so often is)

    Well one thing Trump got right way back when was “Lyin’ Ted”.

    A reminder of his remarks to the crowd before things kicked off.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLQUDnkpcVI
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    So long as you don’t want to exercise any political rights, or the government decides it doesn’t like you, or that you’re an inconvenience, I’m sure it’s fine.

    They even seem to have stronger anti trust provisions than the US.
    Anyone seen Jack Ma recently ?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    JACK_W said:

    AP Update - Warnock +79K .. Ossoff +41K .. 98%+ reporting.

    ............................................................................................

    Excellent insight from Politico on how the DEMS flipped the November losses in the Georgia Senate races two months later :

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/warnock-ossoff-flipped-senate-georgia-456310

    That's a terrific piece. As you know, I'm very impressed with Jon Ossoff and think he could go far.

    100,000 people voted Tuesday who didn't vote November 3rd. That's a brilliant outreach success.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    RobD said:

    Endillion said:

    Well said. Couldn't agree more.

    In other news, am I missing something, or is this more abysmal journalism from the BBC?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55579028

    If she "started feeling unwell" three weeks after receiving the first jab, she most likely contracted the virus within 1-2 weeks of being vaccinated, and before the second jab would have been administered in any case. So the UK going against WHO/Pfizer advice is irrelevant to her case, unfortunate though it clearly is.

    Which bit of x% efficacy do the media not understand? Unfortunately, there are going to 1000s of people who still contract COVID after being vaccinated.

    I think the BBC are trying to make a story out of the fact they hadn't had their second jab at 3 weeks, but given when she contracted it, it is irrelevant.
    Angry and heartbroken over 1 in 20 odds? Jeez.
    And works in a very high risk environment, so even more likely. Bit concerned that a nurse doesn't understand efficacy of vaccines. I hope nobody ever tells her about how poor that flu jabs she gets is.
    Indeed. She seems to have got the impression that while her uniform could pose an infection risk to her family, she herself couldn't, because she had been vaccinated.

    This is going to be a danger during the vaccination programme, and if even NHS nurses aren't getting the message, it is very bad news.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    Today is the day Trump became President - American Political Columnists
    Today is the day Trump realised he may go to jail.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    Today is the day Trump became President - American Political Columnists
    Today is the day Trump realised he may go to jail.
    That's the really interesting question today. He's at greater risk of jail today than he's ever been, so presumably he will flee. Or does he want to make himself a martyr ?

    That seems less like him, but he's now also a cult leader, and his life is wrapped around the glory of taking a stand in a way it never was before.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia. Far more than I know in China. I've worked for the Saudis often. Though they would say they have a reasonable life in their pampered communes where for the most part they are above the law none would say they loved the place. Indeed quite the opposite. That is not the case for those I know i China.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    That seems less like him, but he's now also a cult leader, and his life is wrapped around the concept of taking a stand.

    No, it's wrapped around others doing his bidding while he cowers in bunker
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited January 2021
    I haven't looked at China recently and acknowledge that Xi has undone much of the spirit of 1978 but the country has always been one more focused on itself (and the many historic wrongs it believes have been perpetrated against it) than on much else.

    (Wounded) pride fuels much of its actions.

    Hence HK, Taiwan, the Spratlys (although never Macau for some reason), and also internal dissent.

    It has mercantile global ambitions but beyond that has no wish to march on Europe.

    It is the success, on account of its sheer scale, of the mercantile ambitions that has everyone so shit scared.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    That seems less like him, but he's now also a cult leader, and his life is wrapped around the concept of taking a stand.

    No, it's wrapped around others doing his bidding while he cowers in bunker
    He loves the glory and attention too, though, as well as using and dispensing with people, as he did with the rioters yesterday. Does he really want to be known as the loser who flees ? I'm not sure about that.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Does he really want to be known as the loser who flees ? I'm not sure about that.

    Instead of the loser in jail?

    Hell yes...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001


    True dat
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited January 2021
    CHINA

    12. "Threats of retaliation against Britain for banning Huawei from its 5G network. It has threatened “substantial damage” against the British economy and British interests in China saying that it would “strike back… where the UK steps out of line”."

    Isn't this what the US do all the time? They even do it by banning overseas companies that deal with countries they don't like. Cuba for example
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Does he really want to be known as the loser who flees ? I'm not sure about that.

    Instead of the loser in jail?

    Hell yes...
    It'll be interesting to see. Does the lifelong grifter win out, or has the experience and glory of leading his intoxicated followers changed him, in any way.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    New research suggests that Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine can protect against a mutation found in two contagious variants of the coronavirus that erupted in Britain and South Africa, AP reports.

    Those variants are causing global concern. They both share a common mutation called N501Y, a slight alteration on one spot of the spike protein that coats the virus. That change is believed to be the reason they can spread so easily.

    Most of the vaccines being rolled out around the world train the body to recognize that spike protein and fight it. Pfizer teamed with researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston for laboratory tests to see if the mutation affected its vaccine’s ability to do so.

    They used blood samples from 20 people who received the vaccine, made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech, during a large study of the shots. Antibodies from those vaccine recipients successfully fended off the virus in lab dishes, according to the study posted late Thursday on an online site for researchers.

    The study is preliminary and has not yet been reviewed by experts, a key step for medical research.

    Link to the preprint:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.07.425740v1

    Note they tested only the mutation common to the SA and UK variants, and not yet one of the concerning SA mutations. But that will no doubt be next, and I’m fairly optimistic.
    I speculated (as did scientists who far better understand this stuff) that the vaccine immune response is possibly more protective than that generated by having been infected. Finders crossed that will continue to be borne out.
    Thanks for posting these studies. Hopefully we manage to squash this damn thing before a vaccine-resistant strain gets out.
    I wouldn't worry too much: the mRNA revolution that comes out of CV19 is going to change the world - and our treatment of infectious diseases - in a profoundly positive way.

    Don't forget the Pfizer vaccine was designed in a day, at the very start of the pandemic.
    Good to hear. The pandemic has certainly led to a lot of innovation, and accelerated changes accross a large number of industries. Necessity being the mother of invention appears to still hold true.
    To be fair, the mRNA vaccine technologies have been two or three decades in the making.
    What has worked in thus pandemic is the tools we already had to hand. It’s their deployment, more than development, which has been turbocharged.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    A bit short sighted I fear. The Uigher plight is an epic scandal we in the West have brushed under the carpet for convenience. Hong Kong is of a higher profile, however statements from Raab, indicate our dissent, but not much else.

    We in the West have relied on cheap Chinese production to keep our economies running for the last 20 years, so we will only pay lip service to economic sanctions. Ironically, the one international intervention that really did piss them off was Trump's insistence on a Western boycott off Huawei.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

    Don't be fooled. Proctor and Gamble were situated above what was called 'chop chop' square. My American client told me what happened the week before we worked together. (We shot in Beirut.)
    After Friday prayers families gathered in the square for that day's executions. There were 13. Nearly all Indian or Pakistanis. One a woman. They were there for drugs offenses. They lined them up knelt them down and then a man with a sword jabbed them in the side one by one which caused them to lift their heads and then he chopped them off and the crowds roared. Men women and school children. This was 2002. The country is NOT civilized.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Is it now safe to assume that Trump has no chance of being the Republican 2024 nominee?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    Endillion said:

    Well said. Couldn't agree more.

    In other news, am I missing something, or is this more abysmal journalism from the BBC?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55579028

    If she "started feeling unwell" three weeks after receiving the first jab, she most likely contracted the virus within 1-2 weeks of being vaccinated, and before the second jab would have been administered in any case. So the UK going against WHO/Pfizer advice is irrelevant to her case, unfortunate though it clearly is.

    Th incubation period is 6 days, so she became infected in the third week.

    We will know how effective the long gap makes the vaccine by the end of the month, as there will be hundreds of thousands who did not get their 3 week booster, and with a disease prevalence of 1/50, they will be exposed.

    Prof Tang was on the BBC on the 6 o'clock news yesterday, saying that exposure to circulating virus will act as a booster. Implicitly this means infection, albeit he expects it to be mild.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:
    There's more and more of this sort of thing floating about today, including various accounts that the security agencies of NATO allies are talking about this as a plausible possibility, where the washington police and national guard security arrangements are concerned. Trump is well and truly stuffed ; the only question is where he goes.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Stocky said:

    Is it now safe to assume that Trump has no chance of being the Republican 2024 nominee?

    Yes
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:
    Today is the day Trump became President - American Political Columnists
    Today is the day Trump realised he may go to jail.
    That's the really interesting question today. He's at greater risk of jail today than he's ever been, so presumably he will flee. Or does he want to make himself a martyr ?

    That seems less like him, but he's now also a cult leader, and his life is wrapped around the glory of taking a stand in a way it never was before.
    The ostentatious luxury of Trump Turnberry overlooking Ailsa Craig and the North Channel is more up his street than a cell in Attica, overlooking more cells in Attica.

    Is golf even allowed in a high security Federal Penetentiary?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2021
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

    Don't be fooled. Proctor and Gamble were situated above what was called 'chop chop' square. My American client told me what happened the week before we worked together. (We shot in Beirut.)
    After Friday prayers families gathered in the square for that day's executions. There were 13. Nearly all Indian or Pakistanis. One a woman. They were there for drugs offenses. They lined them up knelt them down and then a man with a sword jabbed them in the side one by one which caused them to lift their heads and then he chopped them off and the crowds roared. Men women and school children. This was 2002. The country is NOT civilized.
    I know and I don't disagree. But to be fair you're writing about 2002 and the article is all about how it has changed in the last two years under MBS.

    And they execute people in America too.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Scott_xP said:
    From the guy’s new year message, hopefully he saw it coming: ” The end of year sometimes brings expectations of big insights about where we have been, and how things might change in the future. ”
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421

    A very interesting Washington Post article linked to here.
    If I was Trump I would be collecting my family now, and making plans to leave well before the 19th.

    https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1347407963934363649

    Subscription-only article?

    What was the plan? Take legislators hostage; pretext for martial law; overturn election result?

    If that was the case then the Capitol Police become the heroes of the hour who managed to hold off the mob long enough to evacuate scone to a place of safety - despite having been set-up to fail.

    I think it's really important for a distinction to be drawn between those in charge - who failed to prepare, whether purposefully or incompetently - and the individual officers who fought to do what was right.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    HYUFD said:
    I guess those leaks about the 25th Amendment were a negotiation.
    What I've had trouble with invoking the 25th (beside the short duration of remaining term) is notion that sufficient number of Trumpsky's cabinet would go along OR that Pence would sign off on it, both of which are essential.

    As for cabinet, mostly a collection of turkey's, co-conspirators AND "acting" secretaries, hard to see them making history, especially with ANY risk to themselves involved.

    BUT talking it up in the media to put pressure on POTUS, that's a different kettle o' fish.
    Do you think the impeachment thing is similarly doomed? I mean, even if they run the process on the 20x speed setting there still won't be enough GOP senators willing to stick their necks out, right?
    Haven't both the HoR and Senate recessed until after the inauguration? Hence no impeachment, though I suppose they could be recalled.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    What's it's like for westerners and ordinary Chinese people are likely to be two different things.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

    Don't be fooled. Proctor and Gamble were situated above what was called 'chop chop' square. My American client told me what happened the week before we worked together. (We shot in Beirut.)
    After Friday prayers families gathered in the square for that day's executions. There were 13. Nearly all Indian or Pakistanis. One a woman. They were there for drugs offenses. They lined them up knelt them down and then a man with a sword jabbed them in the side one by one which caused them to lift their heads and then he chopped them off and the crowds roared. Men women and school children. This was 2002. The country is NOT civilized.
    The horrific details of the Embassy in Istanbul episode backs up your point, and that lawless cancer spread right to the top of the Kingdom.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    A lot of those protestors will now see how Trump has taken them for patsies.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    China will use its economic influence to attempt to stifle dissent. Without dissent democracy dies.

    At the moment this is dissent directed against China - as with Australia - but they will encourage client states to stifle internal dissent too, in the interests of economic stability, and this is the form by which they will undermine democracy.

    We either take the painful steps now to re-establish our economic independence from China, or we will be faced with more difficult decisions later on.

    This can be a gradual process, rather than an event, but we do need to change direction.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    I don't know why the BBC publish this rubbish. Alanbrooke says it's all fine...

    https://twitter.com/DrLornaTreanor/status/1347431421615464448
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    IanB2 said:

    A lot of those protestors will now see how Trump has taken them for patsies.

    Let`s hope so - Trump has used them solely to nourish his own ego.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Democrats need to go all out for impeachment. Any senator who doesn't vote to remove at this point is allowing a literal traitor to stay in charge.
    If the GOP doesn't figure that out, they're either too craven, too thick or too mendacious to be allowed into power for the next 50 years
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

    Don't be fooled. Proctor and Gamble were situated above what was called 'chop chop' square. My American client told me what happened the week before we worked together. (We shot in Beirut.)
    After Friday prayers families gathered in the square for that day's executions. There were 13. Nearly all Indian or Pakistanis. One a woman. They were there for drugs offenses. They lined them up knelt them down and then a man with a sword jabbed them in the side one by one which caused them to lift their heads and then he chopped them off and the crowds roared. Men women and school children. This was 2002. The country is NOT civilized.
    I know and I don't disagree. But to be fair you're writing about 2002 and the article is all about how it has changed in the last two years under MBS.

    And they execute people in America too.
    Though they don’t yet dismember journalists they don’t like.
    Unlike MBS.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

    Don't be fooled. Proctor and Gamble were situated above what was called 'chop chop' square. My American client told me what happened the week before we worked together. (We shot in Beirut.)
    After Friday prayers families gathered in the square for that day's executions. There were 13. Nearly all Indian or Pakistanis. One a woman. They were there for drugs offenses. They lined them up knelt them down and then a man with a sword jabbed them in the side one by one which caused them to lift their heads and then he chopped them off and the crowds roared. Men women and school children. This was 2002. The country is NOT civilized.
    The horrific details of the Embassy in Istanbul episode backs up your point, and that lawless cancer spread right to the top of the Kingdom.
    And yet we arm the Saudis to the teeth and help their planning for the bombing of Yemen.

    We trade and deal with many foul regimes in the world, and will need to more in the future, having deliberately severed ties with the biggest market of free people in the world.

    We know how China behaves, but things have changed dynamics since the Opium wars. We are the ones who have to suck it up now.
  • MalkieMalkie Posts: 4
    So Cyclefree has been to Xinjiang? Well I have. I saw literally thousands of Uighurs going about their business, apparently perfectly happily. Mosques being destroyed? I saw new mosques being built in Kashgar, Aksu and Dunhuang. I saw Friday prayers being held at the Id Kah mosque in Kashgar and heard the muezzins calling people to prayer. I suspect that Cyclefree has spent too much time listening to Donald Trump and I'm surprised to see his propaganda being peddled on this site.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    Malkie said:

    So Cyclefree has been to Xinjiang? Well I have. I saw literally thousands of Uighurs going about their business, apparently perfectly happily. Mosques being destroyed? I saw new mosques being built in Kashgar, Aksu and Dunhuang. I saw Friday prayers being held at the Id Kah mosque in Kashgar and heard the muezzins calling people to prayer. I suspect that Cyclefree has spent too much time listening to Donald Trump and I'm surprised to see his propaganda being peddled on this site.

    When - since Xi took power or before then?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021

    A very interesting Washington Post article linked to here.
    If I was Trump I would be collecting my family now, and making plans to leave well before the 19th.

    https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1347407963934363649

    Subscription-only article?

    What was the plan? Take legislators hostage; pretext for martial law; overturn election result?

    If that was the case then the Capitol Police become the heroes of the hour who managed to hold off the mob long enough to evacuate scone to a place of safety - despite having been set-up to fail.

    I think it's really important for a distinction to be drawn between those in charge - who failed to prepare, whether purposefully or incompetently - and the individual officers who fought to do what was right.
    The article is only specific on what was absent rather than what could have been planned, as obviously it's been too early for any investigation. At the very least there seems to have been some very odd dimensions to the whole pentagon, security and national guard elements of the day, as well as the arrangements Trump had put in before, and these intimations seem to be being picked up increasingly by the US political class.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    This is not Brexit chaos. This is M&S Brexit chaos...

    https://twitter.com/pkelso/status/1347458052249759744
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

    Don't be fooled. Proctor and Gamble were situated above what was called 'chop chop' square. My American client told me what happened the week before we worked together. (We shot in Beirut.)
    After Friday prayers families gathered in the square for that day's executions. There were 13. Nearly all Indian or Pakistanis. One a woman. They were there for drugs offenses. They lined them up knelt them down and then a man with a sword jabbed them in the side one by one which caused them to lift their heads and then he chopped them off and the crowds roared. Men women and school children. This was 2002. The country is NOT civilized.
    The horrific details of the Embassy in Istanbul episode backs up your point, and that lawless cancer spread right to the top of the Kingdom.
    And yet we arm the Saudis to the teeth and help their planning for the bombing of Yemen.

    We trade and deal with many foul regimes in the world, and will need to more in the future, having deliberately severed ties with the biggest market of free people in the world.

    We know how China behaves, but things have changed dynamics since the Opium wars. We are the ones who have to suck it up now.
    I couldn't agree more.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    What's it's like for westerners and ordinary Chinese people are likely to be two different things.
    Though Chinese students in the UK have a much higher return rate than from other countries. Some of it may be family, as usually only children, but for others it is a good place to live, as long as you tow the party line.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    Scott_xP said:

    This is not Brexit chaos. This is M&S Brexit chaos...

    https://twitter.com/pkelso/status/1347458052249759744

    Why should I be exposed to the tweets of someone who doesn't know his "their" from his "there"?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    edited January 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    What's it's like for westerners and ordinary Chinese people are likely to be two different things.

    I have been to China many times. The ordinary Chinese have a standard of living they could not have dreamed about even 30 years ago. There is no mass discontent, but there are grumblings. These will get louder as the older generations - that have known intense poverty and genuine hunger - die away. The Communist party knows this so is acting now to stifle as much dissent as possible. I could never live in China as a Westerner who has lived a free life in what is, by comparison, a clean environment. But I am the exception rather than the rule in this world. When you have known what the Chinese have known within living memory you will put up with a hell of a lot not to have it back.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:
    It seems that at least some proportion of regular policemen may have been onside, or at least acquiescent, and his people may have managed to hold off the National Guard for a while before the military came in.

    At the very least he could have created absolute chaos and fear, if not any Senators killed or taken hostage, which is exactly what his niece predicted in the event of his losing ; so rather than a coherent, fully thought-through plot, that's why it seems sadly all too plausible.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    So Trump incited a mob to attack the Capitol building which resulted in 5 deaths including a Capital police officer . The Law and Order President !

    The Trump Cult which broke into Congress in effect have just driven a stake through the heart of Trumpism in terms of a vote winning proposition .

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    What's it's like for westerners and ordinary Chinese people are likely to be two different things.
    Of course but by the same token it's not always easy to judge what goes on in a culture very different from our own and someone from our culture living there can sometimes be a better judge than 'international outrage'.

    I remember being with some Bostonians in France during Thatcher's time and being told how barbaric and undemocratic we the British were because of our behaviour towards the Catholics in Northern Ireland. They were describing actions and a country I didn't recognise
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:
    It was a really poor coup attempt. Trump remains Commander-in-Chief, if he had planned a proper coup, using Flynn as a conduit to the military, surely there would have been many willing takers, and he could have done much, much better.
  • Scott_xP said:
    It was a really poor coup attempt. Trump remains Commander-in-Chief, if he had planned a proper coup, using Flynn as a conduit to the military, surely there would have been many willing takers, and he could have done much, much better.
    Maybe he just wanted to leave a trail of destruction and confusion, to get back at the people who denied him. That would have been very Trump.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,803

    Scott_xP said:

    This is not Brexit chaos. This is M&S Brexit chaos...

    https://twitter.com/pkelso/status/1347458052249759744

    Why should I be exposed to the tweets of someone who doesn't know his "their" from his "there"?
    I see you have got your priorities right.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    I know three separate people who moved to Saudi Arabia to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.
    I also know several who live in Saudi Arabia.
    Saudi is really changing and is pitching itself as a tourist destination. There was a great piece a few weeks back on CNN:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/saudi-arabia-fun-tourists/index.html

    Don't be fooled. Proctor and Gamble were situated above what was called 'chop chop' square. My American client told me what happened the week before we worked together. (We shot in Beirut.)
    After Friday prayers families gathered in the square for that day's executions. There were 13. Nearly all Indian or Pakistanis. One a woman. They were there for drugs offenses. They lined them up knelt them down and then a man with a sword jabbed them in the side one by one which caused them to lift their heads and then he chopped them off and the crowds roared. Men women and school children. This was 2002. The country is NOT civilized.
    The horrific details of the Embassy in Istanbul episode backs up your point, and that lawless cancer spread right to the top of the Kingdom.
    And yet we arm the Saudis to the teeth and help their planning for the bombing of Yemen.

    We trade and deal with many foul regimes in the world, and will need to more in the future, having deliberately severed ties with the biggest market of free people in the world.

    We know how China behaves, but things have changed dynamics since the Opium wars. We are the ones who have to suck it up now.
    And as I said, for China, the Opium wars took place the week before last.

    It is hugely proud and will act to protect its own interests (which of course align with those of the CP) whether internally or externally.

    As it was described to me at the time, if the UK wanted to "cut up rough" about the return of HK, the PRC would have no problem taking over several square miles of rubble.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    A very interesting Washington Post article linked to here.
    If I was Trump I would be collecting my family now, and making plans to leave well before the 19th.

    https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1347407963934363649

    Subscription-only article?

    What was the plan? Take legislators hostage; pretext for martial law; overturn election result?

    If that was the case then the Capitol Police become the heroes of the hour who managed to hold off the mob long enough to evacuate scone to a place of safety - despite having been set-up to fail.

    I think it's really important for a distinction to be drawn between those in charge - who failed to prepare, whether purposefully or incompetently - and the individual officers who fought to do what was right.
    It does bring to mind when Vito Corleone was in hospital - and corrupt Police Chief McCluskey orders his men to leave so that a hit can happen on the Godfather...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Roger said:

    On topic. Though statistically meaningless....I know three separate people who moved to China to work at various times over the last five years and all three love the place. They are bright enough and diverse enough for me to think that the country can't be all bad.

    What's it's like for westerners and ordinary Chinese people are likely to be two different things.
    Is like for Westerners who don't ask any questions, keep themselves mostly to other ex-pats and don't step outside a certain set of social boundaries.

    There are two good youtube channals of an South African and American who moved there many years ago, speak fluent Chinese and married to Chinese ladies. They explain the situations.of.what life in China is like really well, the positives and the many negatives.
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