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The China Peril – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 8 in General
imageThe China Peril – politicalbetting.com

The charge sheet

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    People have asked on here how the others died in the mayhem...

    How the three other MAGA invaders died in the Capitol: One was 'trampled to death' in the Rotunda, another died from a heart attack 'amid the excitement' and the third suffered a stroke

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9123981/PICTURED-Two-MAGA-fanatics-died-medical-reasons-mob-attack-Capitol.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Biden’s comments that BLM protestors would have been treated differently - while true - is hardly fucking salient unless he’s planning an investigation into the Capitol Guard.

    Not a good omen.

    Did he say that? Way to go, to deepen the Culture Wars. Idiotic.
    Quite right too!

    The Police shouldn't be armed thugs beating up those they dislike or shooting those who have the wrong skin colour, they should be professionals doing a job.
    I just feel this is a non sequitur to the events or yesterday.

    The attempted coup was an attack on democracy, incited by a President who has spent the past four years trying to subvert the rule of law.

    The message that I want to hear from Biden/Harris is that an attack on the rule of law cannot be tolerated and that no-one - not even the President of the USA - can be above it.

    I do not - at this juncture - want to hear Ms Harris talking about race. Apart from the fact that the rioters tended to be white incels, race is a non-sequitur.
    It is not a non sequitur it is entirely relevant. She is not talking about race - she is talking about the rule of law. She is talking about justice. These things matter.

    It is worth asking a question why the Police can use tear gas on unarmed peaceful protestors and journalists to clear the streets - but they can't prevent a pre-planned, forewarned, pre-announced invasion of the Capitol by those they knew were coming with that intention?

    The Police need complete and utter root and branch reform. They need new leadership. They need to be able to do the basics and Police to stop actual crimes like what we saw yesterday and not concentrate on attacking the unarmed.
    It is worth asking that definitely.
    But she doesn’t.
    Precisely.

    She's just pouring petrol on the fire. This is nuts.

    Biden, Pence and Romney all made excellent speeches yesterday. "Let's get back to work". Totally condemning the Trumpite idiots, and rightly so.

    One day later America is picking the scab of its ultimate wound: racial injustice, in a way that will only make the wound fester. It is madness. I am a Briton looking at the most important western country in the West, and our greatest ally, carefully tearing itself to shreds. Desperate stuff.
    To be fair, she is simply reflecting just about every black commentator on any channel yesterday, whose immediate comparator for how the riot was dealt with was BLM protests.

    I think it is easy for white people living in the UK to dismiss how front and centre race and personal security is to black people in the US.

    One of my wife's colleagues, a 6' 3" ex-military physician, who happens to be black, is worried every day he drives to work in deeply rural MD (think more like WV than Bethesda) whether he will be pulled over by the police and, if so, how badly hurt he'll be. My wife suggested that he drive to work in scrubs with his stethoscope around his neck. This is simply something we white people do not even consider, let alone have in the forefront of our minds.
    Precisely.

    Most Brits (it seems from PB) think of BLM as wokeism gone wild. This is NOT the view in the US, for reasons just stated.

    Fact that Black people are at greater risk of targeting and actual harm from police is something that most White people in the United States understand. The death of George Floyd was straw that broke the camel's back.

    Thus strong level of support for BLM - not for rioting and other wretched excesses, but the basic message - has been strong since Floyd's death, and across a wide and often surprising demographic and political spectrum.
    I can't speak for what most Brits think, but I can say that PB is collection of very weird people.
    And who knows, maybe it is a representative sample. But I say with all sincerity, I fucking hope it isn't.
    Nonsense, there's no group more on the pulse of the nation and who embodies it more.

    BTW, has no one considered the most terrible restriction of the last year - no thursday night by-elections?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    edited January 8
    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 8
    Talking of China...migjt be true, might be not, but I have a feeling the doctor in question has had a visit.

    Chinese doctor calls the nation's Sinopharm COVID-19 vaccine 'the most unsafe in the world with SEVENTY-THREE side effects'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9121851/Coronavirus-vaccine-Expert-calls-Chinas-Sinopharm-COVID-19-vaccine-unsafe-world.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    A thoroughly depressing header. Hard to see a change in approach to meaningfully go against that odious regime happening in my lifetime.

    Has anyone any glimmers of hope that the regime is not as strong as it appears?

    Dark dreams everyone.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 47,349
    China is the new Evil Empire.

    When will anyone be as brave as Reagan at stating that simple fact?

    Yes, let us pray for the salvation of all of those who live in that totalitarian darkness—pray they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the State, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world .... So, in your discussions of the nuclear freeze proposals, I urge you to beware the temptation of pride—the temptation of blithely declaring yourselves above it all and label both sides equally at fault, to ignore the facts of history and the aggressive impulses of an evil empire, to simply call the arms race a giant misunderstanding and thereby remove yourself from the struggle between right and wrong and good and evil.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    China is the new Evil Empire
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 8
    kle4 said:

    A thoroughly depressing header. Hard to see a change in approach to meaningfully go against that odious regime happening in my lifetime.

    Has anyone any glimmers of hope that the regime is not as strong as it appears?

    Dark dreams everyone.

    If COVID doesn't change how the West interact with / overrealiance on China nothing will.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 34,793

    Been some chatter on PB that Joe Biden's cabinet picks have been boring, unimpressive, so forth & so on.

    Personally disagree, and below is the full list as of today (still with a couple "to be decided")

    Cabinet Secretaries:
    State - Anthony Blinken (former National Security Advisor and former Deputy Secretary of State)
    Treasury - Janet Yellin (former Federal Reserve Chair)
    Defense - Lloyd Austin (former commander US Central Command)
    Justice - Merrick Garland (former US Appeals Court judge & SCOTUS nominee)
    Interior - Deb Haaland (former US Representative from New Mexico)
    Agriculture - Tom Vilsack (former USDA Secretary and former Governor of Iowa)
    Commerce - Gina Raimondo (current Governor of Rhode Island, was on 2020 VP shortlist)
    Labor - Marty Walsh (current Mayor of Boston
    Health & Human Services - Xavier Becerra (current Attorney General of California, former US Representative)
    Housing & Urban Development - Marcia Fudge (now US Representative from Ohio, chair of Congressional Black Caucus)
    Transportation - Pete Buttigeg (former Mayor of Fort Wayne, IN and 2020 presidential candidate)
    Energy - Jennifer Granholm (former Governor of Michigan)
    Education - Miguel Cardona (current Connecticut Commissioner of Education)
    Veterans Affairs - Dennis McDonough (former White House Chief of Staff for Obama, former Deputy NSA)
    Homeland Security - Alejandro Mayorkas (former Deputy Secretary for Homeland Security)

    Officials of Cabinet Rank:
    White House Chief of Staff - Ron Klain (former White House Ebola Relief Coordinator, former Chief of Staff for VP Biden)
    US Trade Representative - Katherine Tai (trade counsel for US House Ways & Means Committee)
    Director of National Intelligence - Avril Haines (former Deputy NSA, former Deputy Director of CIA)
    Director of Central Intelligence Agency - to be announced
    Environmental Protection Agency Administrator - Michael S. Regan (now Director of North Carolina Dep of Enviro Quality)
    Office of Management & Budget Director - Neera Tanden (now CEO of Center for American Progress)
    Administrator of Small Business Administration - to be decided
    Ambassador to United Nations - Linda Thomas-Greenfield (former Assistant SOS for African Affairs, former director general US Foreign Service, former Ambassador to Liberia)
    Chair of Council of Economic Advisors - Cecilia Rouse4 (current Dean of Princeton School of Public & International Affairs, former member CEA)
    US Special Presidential Envoy for Climate - John Kerry (former US Secretary of State, former presidential nominee, former US Senator)

    Buttigieg was *not* the Mayor of Fort Wayne.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    No way RoI health system can deal with that if it carries on for any length of time.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 5,983
    China. Something should be done. No idea what is practicable; Europe has already dropped the ball; let's see what America comes up with.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    rcs1000 said:

    Been some chatter on PB that Joe Biden's cabinet picks have been boring, unimpressive, so forth & so on.

    Personally disagree, and below is the full list as of today (still with a couple "to be decided")

    Cabinet Secretaries:
    State - Anthony Blinken (former National Security Advisor and former Deputy Secretary of State)
    Treasury - Janet Yellin (former Federal Reserve Chair)
    Defense - Lloyd Austin (former commander US Central Command)
    Justice - Merrick Garland (former US Appeals Court judge & SCOTUS nominee)
    Interior - Deb Haaland (former US Representative from New Mexico)
    Agriculture - Tom Vilsack (former USDA Secretary and former Governor of Iowa)
    Commerce - Gina Raimondo (current Governor of Rhode Island, was on 2020 VP shortlist)
    Labor - Marty Walsh (current Mayor of Boston
    Health & Human Services - Xavier Becerra (current Attorney General of California, former US Representative)
    Housing & Urban Development - Marcia Fudge (now US Representative from Ohio, chair of Congressional Black Caucus)
    Transportation - Pete Buttigeg (former Mayor of Fort Wayne, IN and 2020 presidential candidate)
    Energy - Jennifer Granholm (former Governor of Michigan)
    Education - Miguel Cardona (current Connecticut Commissioner of Education)
    Veterans Affairs - Dennis McDonough (former White House Chief of Staff for Obama, former Deputy NSA)
    Homeland Security - Alejandro Mayorkas (former Deputy Secretary for Homeland Security)

    Officials of Cabinet Rank:
    White House Chief of Staff - Ron Klain (former White House Ebola Relief Coordinator, former Chief of Staff for VP Biden)
    US Trade Representative - Katherine Tai (trade counsel for US House Ways & Means Committee)
    Director of National Intelligence - Avril Haines (former Deputy NSA, former Deputy Director of CIA)
    Director of Central Intelligence Agency - to be announced
    Environmental Protection Agency Administrator - Michael S. Regan (now Director of North Carolina Dep of Enviro Quality)
    Office of Management & Budget Director - Neera Tanden (now CEO of Center for American Progress)
    Administrator of Small Business Administration - to be decided
    Ambassador to United Nations - Linda Thomas-Greenfield (former Assistant SOS for African Affairs, former director general US Foreign Service, former Ambassador to Liberia)
    Chair of Council of Economic Advisors - Cecilia Rouse4 (current Dean of Princeton School of Public & International Affairs, former member CEA)
    US Special Presidential Envoy for Climate - John Kerry (former US Secretary of State, former presidential nominee, former US Senator)

    Buttigieg was *not* the Mayor of Fort Wayne.
    Bendy something
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 15,374
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Biden’s comments that BLM protestors would have been treated differently - while true - is hardly fucking salient unless he’s planning an investigation into the Capitol Guard.

    Not a good omen.

    Did he say that? Way to go, to deepen the Culture Wars. Idiotic.
    Quite right too!

    The Police shouldn't be armed thugs beating up those they dislike or shooting those who have the wrong skin colour, they should be professionals doing a job.
    I just feel this is a non sequitur to the events or yesterday.

    The attempted coup was an attack on democracy, incited by a President who has spent the past four years trying to subvert the rule of law.

    The message that I want to hear from Biden/Harris is that an attack on the rule of law cannot be tolerated and that no-one - not even the President of the USA - can be above it.

    I do not - at this juncture - want to hear Ms Harris talking about race. Apart from the fact that the rioters tended to be white incels, race is a non-sequitur.
    It is not a non sequitur it is entirely relevant. She is not talking about race - she is talking about the rule of law. She is talking about justice. These things matter.

    It is worth asking a question why the Police can use tear gas on unarmed peaceful protestors and journalists to clear the streets - but they can't prevent a pre-planned, forewarned, pre-announced invasion of the Capitol by those they knew were coming with that intention?

    The Police need complete and utter root and branch reform. They need new leadership. They need to be able to do the basics and Police to stop actual crimes like what we saw yesterday and not concentrate on attacking the unarmed.
    It is worth asking that definitely.
    But she doesn’t.
    Precisely.

    She's just pouring petrol on the fire. This is nuts.

    Biden, Pence and Romney all made excellent speeches yesterday. "Let's get back to work". Totally condemning the Trumpite idiots, and rightly so.

    One day later America is picking the scab of its ultimate wound: racial injustice, in a way that will only make the wound fester. It is madness. I am a Briton looking at the most important western country in the West, and our greatest ally, carefully tearing itself to shreds. Desperate stuff.
    To be fair, she is simply reflecting just about every black commentator on any channel yesterday, whose immediate comparator for how the riot was dealt with was BLM protests.

    I think it is easy for white people living in the UK to dismiss how front and centre race and personal security is to black people in the US.

    One of my wife's colleagues, a 6' 3" ex-military physician, who happens to be black, is worried every day he drives to work in deeply rural MD (think more like WV than Bethesda) whether he will be pulled over by the police and, if so, how badly hurt he'll be. My wife suggested that he drive to work in scrubs with his stethoscope around his neck. This is simply something we white people do not even consider, let alone have in the forefront of our minds.
    Precisely.

    Most Brits (it seems from PB) think of BLM as wokeism gone wild. This is NOT the view in the US, for reasons just stated.

    Fact that Black people are at greater risk of targeting and actual harm from police is something that most White people in the United States understand. The death of George Floyd was straw that broke the camel's back.

    Thus strong level of support for BLM - not for rioting and other wretched excesses, but the basic message - has been strong since Floyd's death, and across a wide and often surprising demographic and political spectrum.
    I can't speak for what most Brits think, but I can say that PB is collection of very weird people.
    And who knows, maybe it is a representative sample. But I say with all sincerity, I fucking hope it isn't.
    Nonsense, there's no group more on the pulse of the nation and who embodies it more.

    BTW, has no one considered the most terrible restriction of the last year - no thursday night by-elections?
    What seems to be the problem, Ms Batty?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 47,349
    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

    How?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302

    China. Something should be done. No idea what is practicable; Europe has already dropped the ball; let's see what America comes up with.

    More than dropped the ball, they have pretended their behaviour over COVID didn't happen and willing to ignore weaknesses due to overrealiance on them and instead doubled down on the existing approach.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407

    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

    How?
    No idea TBH

    Sorry it is 3 weeks - see below (I misread it as was only on screen for a second)

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    edited January 8
    kle4 said:

    A thoroughly depressing header. Hard to see a change in approach to meaningfully go against that odious regime happening in my lifetime.

    Has anyone any glimmers of hope that the regime is not as strong as it appears?

    Dark dreams everyone.

    Only that recent power struggles have seen Xi in the ascendancy.
    There are other factions biding their time.
    The regime (As in the PRC Communist Party) won't fall.
    But it isn't absolutely nailed on to be THIS iteration.
    Massive economic growth props it up...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 8
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

    How?
    No idea TBH

    Sorry it is 3 weeks - see below (I misread it as was only on screen for a second)

    I presume it must be Cockney COVID.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 23,895
    Trump concession video on twatter. It's a pack of lies bit may have betting implications for people on the Trump to concede - Y/N one I saw a while back.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    Ireland estimates R-number has more than doubled in 3 weeks, from 1.1-1.3 to 2.4-3

    - New cases: 6,521
    - In hospital: 1,043 (+89)
    - In ICU: 96 (+8)
    - New deaths: 10

    Ireland 1 month ago:

    - New cases: 242
    - In hospital: 223
    - New deaths: 0
  • FossFoss Posts: 198

    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    No way RoI health system can deal with that if it carries on for any length of time.
    If the south’s healthcare system collapses it won’t be long before they head north and the NI’s follows suite.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407

    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    No way RoI health system can deal with that if it carries on for any length of time.
    Dr John Campbell made that point earlier today - says they are in for a world of hurt - and we will follow in his opinion
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 8,334
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

    How?
    No idea TBH

    Sorry it is 3 weeks - see below (I misread it as was only on screen for a second)

    Despite a strict lockdown?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 19,085
    kle4 said:

    A thoroughly depressing header. Hard to see a change in approach to meaningfully go against that odious regime happening in my lifetime.

    Has anyone any glimmers of hope that the regime is not as strong as it appears?

    Dark dreams everyone.

    Sorry about that.

    What is even worse is that evil regimes like China, Iran, Russia etc will take comfort from what has been happening in Washington.

    I wish I could bring you good news.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Been some chatter on PB that Joe Biden's cabinet picks have been boring, unimpressive, so forth & so on.

    Personally disagree, and below is the full list as of today (still with a couple "to be decided")

    Cabinet Secretaries:
    State - Anthony Blinken (former National Security Advisor and former Deputy Secretary of State)
    Treasury - Janet Yellin (former Federal Reserve Chair)
    Defense - Lloyd Austin (former commander US Central Command)
    Justice - Merrick Garland (former US Appeals Court judge & SCOTUS nominee)
    Interior - Deb Haaland (former US Representative from New Mexico)
    Agriculture - Tom Vilsack (former USDA Secretary and former Governor of Iowa)
    Commerce - Gina Raimondo (current Governor of Rhode Island, was on 2020 VP shortlist)
    Labor - Marty Walsh (current Mayor of Boston
    Health & Human Services - Xavier Becerra (current Attorney General of California, former US Representative)
    Housing & Urban Development - Marcia Fudge (now US Representative from Ohio, chair of Congressional Black Caucus)
    Transportation - Pete Buttigeg (former Mayor of Fort Wayne, IN and 2020 presidential candidate)
    Energy - Jennifer Granholm (former Governor of Michigan)
    Education - Miguel Cardona (current Connecticut Commissioner of Education)
    Veterans Affairs - Dennis McDonough (former White House Chief of Staff for Obama, former Deputy NSA)
    Homeland Security - Alejandro Mayorkas (former Deputy Secretary for Homeland Security)

    Officials of Cabinet Rank:
    White House Chief of Staff - Ron Klain (former White House Ebola Relief Coordinator, former Chief of Staff for VP Biden)
    US Trade Representative - Katherine Tai (trade counsel for US House Ways & Means Committee)
    Director of National Intelligence - Avril Haines (former Deputy NSA, former Deputy Director of CIA)
    Director of Central Intelligence Agency - to be announced
    Environmental Protection Agency Administrator - Michael S. Regan (now Director of North Carolina Dep of Enviro Quality)
    Office of Management & Budget Director - Neera Tanden (now CEO of Center for American Progress)
    Administrator of Small Business Administration - to be decided
    Ambassador to United Nations - Linda Thomas-Greenfield (former Assistant SOS for African Affairs, former director general US Foreign Service, former Ambassador to Liberia)
    Chair of Council of Economic Advisors - Cecilia Rouse4 (current Dean of Princeton School of Public & International Affairs, former member CEA)
    US Special Presidential Envoy for Climate - John Kerry (former US Secretary of State, former presidential nominee, former US Senator)

    Buttigieg was *not* the Mayor of Fort Wayne.
    Bendy something
    South Bend - always get those two cities mixed up! Thanks for pointing this out.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 8
    MaxPB said:

    Trump concession video on twatter. It's a pack of lies bit may have betting implications for people on the Trump to concede - Y/N one I saw a while back.

    Just seen it, its like he never organized the rally or spoke at it....and the mob were attacking him.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 295
    One of the essential pillars of combating China's malign influence is to set a good example. By which I mean sober policies, protecting the lives, health and welfare of our citizens. And above all, a robust defence of rights-based freedoms.

    If we approach this as a zero- or negative-sum game where we have to do China down as punishment for its transgressions, we're on a hiding to nothing. If we approach this as America did the cold war, we can't lose.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 334
    Vomit inducing load of claptrap from Trump . Insincere garbage . He can go fxck himself !
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    "to my supporters, our journey is only just beginning"...what has he got planned?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    Andy_JS said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

    How?
    No idea TBH

    Sorry it is 3 weeks - see below (I misread it as was only on screen for a second)

    Despite a strict lockdown?
    I heard this morning that about 25% of cases are cockney covid
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887

    MaxPB said:

    Trump concession video on twatter. It's a pack of lies bit may have betting implications for people on the Trump to concede - Y/N one I saw a while back.

    Just seen it, its like he never organized the rally or spoke at it....and the mob were attacking him.
    Nor indeed had a watch party.
    Btw why wasn't he there? At least Mussolini had the good grace to have physical courage.
    A King should lead his troops. Not piss off when it gets tasty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    nico679 said:

    Vomit inducing load of claptrap from Trump . Insincere garbage . He can go fxck himself !

    Judging his immediate response versus what has taken him more than a day to be convinced to do is key when judging sincerity.

    Not that his opponents would believe him if he had not done so, but it would be at least one iota more convincing had he not released his previous video.

    We know what he actually thinks. His actions have proven that.
  • TresTres Posts: 286
    Least the Trump incels have gotten the best fucking of their lives.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 28,312
    A timely header, Cyclefree.
    The crushing of Hong Kong’s democratic politicians went almost unnoticed in the world’s media thanks to Trump’s contemptible dramatics.
    And as Patten noted, the timing of the EU’s commercial deal (which isn’t of massive economic significance) was a blunder which preemptively undercuts any efforts the incoming Biden administration might make to build some sort of consensus of democracies on the China problem.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 467
    edited January 8
    Foss said:

    Floater said:

    Just seen that the R rate in Ireland has gone from 1.1 - 1.3 to 2.4 - 3.0 in a WEEK

    No way RoI health system can deal with that if it carries on for any length of time.
    If the south’s healthcare system collapses it won’t be long before they head north and the NI’s follows suite.

    We don't have the capacity up here, simple as that. Back in November & December the Gardai were out stopping drivers with UK number plates to find out what they were doing down south as if we were the diseased breaking in. I know no less than three people stopped as part of this drive.

    If I overheard correctly yesterday they were talking about shutting building sites down, a sign of how serious it is. I do think however this will peak down there and up here in the next 2-3 weeks with the schools staying closed and the other measures bite.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,791

    "to my supporters, our journey is only just beginning"...what has he got planned?

    Something involving a trip to the jungle and a soft drink.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 893
    edited January 8
    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    Nigelb said:

    A timely header, Cyclefree.
    The crushing of Hong Kong’s democratic politicians went almost unnoticed in the world’s media thanks to Trump’s contemptible dramatics.
    And as Patten noted, the timing of the EU’s commercial deal (which isn’t of massive economic significance) was a blunder which preemptively undercuts any efforts the incoming Biden administration might make to build some sort of consensus of democracies on the China problem.

    But China.
    The eyeballs with dollar signs pop out like in cartoons.
    It is our selfishness. That is not an EU specific trait.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 47,349
    "I immediately deployed the National Guard"

    That is why everyone credited Pence with deploying them - hours after Trump refused to do so yesterday?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    I think we can guess in Indias case.......
  • YokesYokes Posts: 467
    I repeat, Trumps main concern now is avoiding court and potentially jail, i.e. ruin.

    Look at what he has just done in that context.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 47,349
    That speech by Donald is eerily like a hostage video. It is not Donald's words.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 28,312

    MaxPB said:

    Trump concession video on twatter. It's a pack of lies bit may have betting implications for people on the Trump to concede - Y/N one I saw a while back.

    Just seen it, its like he never organized the rally or spoke at it....and the mob were attacking him.
    Scripted by his lawyers, I guess, who will have warned him of his potential legal jeopardy for yesterday’s incitement.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 2,668
    Well said. Couldn't agree more.

    In other news, am I missing something, or is this more abysmal journalism from the BBC?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55579028

    If she "started feeling unwell" three weeks after receiving the first jab, she most likely contracted the virus within 1-2 weeks of being vaccinated, and before the second jab would have been administered in any case. So the UK going against WHO/Pfizer advice is irrelevant to her case, unfortunate though it clearly is.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    edited January 8
    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248

    China. Something should be done. No idea what is practicable; Europe has already dropped the ball; let's see what America comes up with.

    Europe hasn't completely dropped the ball yet, see what the European Parliament does. Also write to your MEP, if you're in an EU country.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 295
    "Like all Americans I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem."
    Looks like Trump missed the overnight polling and what his cultists' hot take was.

    So cram it, Bungle. You're going to jail.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 28,312
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    A timely header, Cyclefree.
    The crushing of Hong Kong’s democratic politicians went almost unnoticed in the world’s media thanks to Trump’s contemptible dramatics.
    And as Patten noted, the timing of the EU’s commercial deal (which isn’t of massive economic significance) was a blunder which preemptively undercuts any efforts the incoming Biden administration might make to build some sort of consensus of democracies on the China problem.

    But China.
    The eyeballs with dollar signs pop out like in cartoons.
    It is our selfishness. That is not an EU specific trait.
    Oh, I’ve no doubt that every western democracy will continue to trade with them, but that’s not really the point.
    There needs to be a consensus on how to deal with them robustly (as to an extent both the UK and Australia have attempted to do individually), otherwise they will play us off one against the other.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 2,668
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    edited January 8
    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248
    On topic, this is an obvious case where you need an ongoing coordinated global response, at least by the larger developed economies. If the EU and the US can agree then the UK, Australia and Japan will also follow, and India should also be agreeable. Inevitably the best you can do is sticks and carrots, mostly of an economic nature.

    On what this coordinated global response should do, North Korean-style isolation won't work because China's economy is too big (and it didn't even work with North Korea). That means that you only have influence to the extent that you actually have trade and other positive-sum engagements, and suspending them when you want to inflict punishment on the other side will also inflict pain on yourself. But that's pretty much all you can do, so at least try to avoid letting China play other developed countries off against each other.

    On the EU-China deal, I think it's the first case so far where Britain's loss of influence from leaving the EU has resulted in an importantly different outcome, in a bad way. But like I say it's not yet done.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531
    One thing the Chinese regime is good at, is stoking up nationalism as a means of accusing its critics of being anti-patriotic if not down-right treasonous. And inflaming pre-existing notions of "us against them"

    Very similar to Make America Great Again. And also strong similarities (at least seems like it to me) to the Brexit anti-EU campaign.

    Seems to me that one of the WORST things folks in the West can do, is do what Trumpsky has done, but what Brits and other Europeans have not: play the racist card. Which is JUST what the expense-account commies running China want, for internal PR purposes AND for their international outreach across the rest of Asia and Africa.

    Someone compared today's China to Second & Third Reich Germany, which is a pretty apt comparison, save that China has a MUCH larger geographic base.

    One major difference is - or at least has been - China's rather surprising military weakness compared to the likes of the Wilhelmine & Hitlerian German armies. One got the distinct impression the Peoples Liberation Army was and still is (or is it?) essentially an economic development force and/or a VERY diversified commercial conglomerate.

    Sure, they could beat up on India when the Indian's weren't expecting it in 1960s, but they got a bloody nose when they tangled with Vietnam in the late 1970s. After THAT embarrassment, seems they decided to focus on making money, in between spells of putting down the occasional uprisings.

    Is this true. And if it was, is it still true? Because it is part and parcel of our response to China AND the future of our own grandchildren, and theirs.

    One final, random thought. There are many, many millions of good Chinese people. With a robust culture and traditions, including many things we share, though sometimes in seemingly very different ways. My own city of Seattle would be a FAR poorer place today, on many diverse levels, without the contributions of generations of Chinese people who gave us their blood, sweat and tears - and also a lot of great art and food!

    As for Chinese in China, the flowering of the internet has revealed that they are truly amazing with respect to social media and communications technology at the grassroots level. AND their reformers and free souls are some of the best and bravest on the face of the earth.

    So IF we are embarking on an anti-China crusade, count me out. BUT if we are working WITH and FOR the good people of China, then that is a worthy enterprise indeed.

    But certainly NOT a cost-free one for anyone - including us. NOT if we're NOT just blowing smoke.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 81,377
    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    India and Japan are perhaps the most wary of China at the moment
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248
    Threats of retaliation against Britain for banning Huawei from its 5G network. It has threatened “substantial damage” against the British economy and British interests in China saying that it would “strike back… where the UK steps out of line”.
    I don't see the point in getting upset about this, if you taliate then you should expect the other side to retaliate.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,715
    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    Er.... to quote Cyclefree:

    14. Fighting with India along the Himalayan border, killing 20 Indian soldiers in recent military skirmishes.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 2,668
    edited January 8
    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531
    edited January 8

    That speech by Donald is eerily like a hostage video. It is not Donald's words.

    He's on heavy meds. Remember his original Doctor Feelgood? Am sure the Quack-in-Chief (the one with the fancy monogrammed lab coat) is regulating his internal chemistry quite aggressively.

    Same as Tricky Dick before he waved bye-bye heading into the chopper.

    WHICH is why we are gonna miss the insights of Hunter S. Thompson at this historic juncture.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,791
    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
    I wonder if the best analogy for it isn’t the East India Company, which obviously ended with a transfer of political sovereignty.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
    Oh thats ok then........
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531
    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
    UK made the pound a power the world around. With the "indirect" empire (for example in South America) being WAY more profitable than the real, red-colored Empire outside the British Isles,

    USA relied on Dollar Diplomacy. And now China is relying on Yen Hegemony.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
    Well yes.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
    Oh thats ok then........
    Well. Yes and no.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,715

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
    UK made the pound a power the world around. With the "indirect" empire (for example in South America) being WAY more profitable than the real, red-colored Empire outside the British Isles,

    USA relied on Dollar Diplomacy. And now China is relying on Yen Hegemony.
    Yuan, not Yen.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    Ambulance waiting times in parts of England 'off the scale'
    .
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55581006
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
    UK made the pound a power the world around. With the "indirect" empire (for example in South America) being WAY more profitable than the real, red-colored Empire outside the British Isles,

    USA relied on Dollar Diplomacy. And now China is relying on Yen Hegemony.
    Yuan, not Yen.
    Man, I keep making these cotton-picking, picayune mistakes! Must be PTSD from yesterday.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Endillion said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    Are you joking?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative
    Not in the slightest.
    The purpose of that is to improve the economy. Not to export revolution. They learned from the Soviet Union.
    It's much, much more than that. It's an incredibly ambitious attempt to obtain soft power in every corner of the world other than Western Europe and North America. Yes, they expect a positive return on every aspect of their investment, but just look at the stated objectives (emphasis mine):
    ...to construct a unified large market and make full use of both international and domestic markets, through cultural exchange and integration, to enhance mutual understanding and trust of member nations, ending up in an innovative pattern with capital inflows, talent pool, and technology database.
    UK made the pound a power the world around. With the "indirect" empire (for example in South America) being WAY more profitable than the real, red-colored Empire outside the British Isles,

    USA relied on Dollar Diplomacy. And now China is relying on Yen Hegemony.
    Yuan, not Yen.
    I once got a nasty surprise looking at my credit card statement after I'd booked what seemed to be an incredibly cheap flight to Shanghai and discovered those two both use the same symbol.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,887
    edited January 8
    My point is that the PRC of Xi Jinping doesn't have to be the PRC. But it has to be the PRC in some form.
    Maybe it's too late to have woken up to it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531
    HYUFD said:
    Are we sure this isn't his stunt double?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248
    HYUFD said:
    I guess those leaks about the 25th Amendment were a negotiation.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 8
    Endillion said:

    Well said. Couldn't agree more.

    In other news, am I missing something, or is this more abysmal journalism from the BBC?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55579028

    If she "started feeling unwell" three weeks after receiving the first jab, she most likely contracted the virus within 1-2 weeks of being vaccinated, and before the second jab would have been administered in any case. So the UK going against WHO/Pfizer advice is irrelevant to her case, unfortunate though it clearly is.

    Which bit of x% efficacy do the media not understand? Unfortunately, there are going to 1000s of people who still contract COVID after being vaccinated.

    I think the BBC are trying to make a story out of the fact they hadn't had their second jab at 3 weeks, but given when she contracted it, it is irrelevant.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407
    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
    Oh thats ok then........
    Well. Yes and no.
    No, just no.

    Can you think of any other countries in history who made territorial claims on others?

  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 295

    Ambulance waiting times in parts of England 'off the scale'
    .
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55581006

    Seven hundred people waiting for an ambulance in London... grim.

    Can I strongly recommend that nobody does anything risky these next few weeks. Cleaning the gutters whilst standing on a chair, cycling in icy weather, invading parliament with your cell phone, that sort of thing. If you need urgent-ish treatment, you ain't gonna get it quickly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 50,909

    Endillion said:

    Well said. Couldn't agree more.

    In other news, am I missing something, or is this more abysmal journalism from the BBC?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55579028

    If she "started feeling unwell" three weeks after receiving the first jab, she most likely contracted the virus within 1-2 weeks of being vaccinated, and before the second jab would have been administered in any case. So the UK going against WHO/Pfizer advice is irrelevant to her case, unfortunate though it clearly is.

    Which bit of x% efficacy do the media not understand? Unfortunately, there are going to 1000s of people who still contract COVID after being vaccinated.

    I think the BBC are trying to make a story out of the fact they hadn't had their second jab at 3 weeks, but given when she contracted it, it is irrelevant.
    Angry and heartbroken over 1 in 20 odds? Jeez.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531

    HYUFD said:
    I guess those leaks about the 25th Amendment were a negotiation.
    What I've had trouble with invoking the 25th (beside the short duration of remaining term) is notion that sufficient number of Trumpsky's cabinet would go along OR that Pence would sign off on it, both of which are essential.

    As for cabinet, mostly a collection of turkey's, co-conspirators AND "acting" secretaries, hard to see them making history, especially with ANY risk to themselves involved.

    BUT talking it up in the media to put pressure on POTUS, that's a different kettle o' fish.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 8

    Ambulance waiting times in parts of England 'off the scale'
    .
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55581006

    Seven hundred people waiting for an ambulance in London... grim.

    Can I strongly recommend that nobody does anything risky these next few weeks. Cleaning the gutters whilst standing on a chair, cycling in icy weather, invading parliament with your cell phone, that sort of thing. If you need urgent-ish treatment, you ain't gonna get it quickly.
    I was on the phone to my elderly parents yesterday and my father was talking about fitting some outside lighting, requiring going up a ladder....I had to have a very strong word with him.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 295
    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
    Oh thats ok then........
    Well. Yes and no.
    No, just no.

    Can you think of any other countries in history who made territorial claims on others?

    The UK?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 11,407

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
    Oh thats ok then........
    Well. Yes and no.
    No, just no.

    Can you think of any other countries in history who made territorial claims on others?

    The UK?
    And we were classed as what?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531

    Ambulance waiting times in parts of England 'off the scale'
    .
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55581006

    Seven hundred people waiting for an ambulance in London... grim.

    Can I strongly recommend that nobody does anything risky these next few weeks. Cleaning the gutters whilst standing on a chair, cycling in icy weather, invading parliament with your cell phone, that sort of thing. If you need urgent-ish treatment, you ain't gonna get it quickly.
    Perhaps even worse, you run a risk of catching the COVID while in hospital or other treatment.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 8
    RobD said:

    Endillion said:

    Well said. Couldn't agree more.

    In other news, am I missing something, or is this more abysmal journalism from the BBC?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55579028

    If she "started feeling unwell" three weeks after receiving the first jab, she most likely contracted the virus within 1-2 weeks of being vaccinated, and before the second jab would have been administered in any case. So the UK going against WHO/Pfizer advice is irrelevant to her case, unfortunate though it clearly is.

    Which bit of x% efficacy do the media not understand? Unfortunately, there are going to 1000s of people who still contract COVID after being vaccinated.

    I think the BBC are trying to make a story out of the fact they hadn't had their second jab at 3 weeks, but given when she contracted it, it is irrelevant.
    Angry and heartbroken over 1 in 20 odds? Jeez.
    And works in a very high risk environment, so even more likely. Bit concerned that a nurse doesn't understand efficacy of vaccines. I hope nobody ever tells her about how poor that flu jabs she gets is.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 295
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
    Oh thats ok then........
    Well. Yes and no.
    No, just no.

    Can you think of any other countries in history who made territorial claims on others?

    The UK?
    And we were classed as what?
    Depends who's asked. A "civilising influence" according to some.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248

    HYUFD said:
    I guess those leaks about the 25th Amendment were a negotiation.
    What I've had trouble with invoking the 25th (beside the short duration of remaining term) is notion that sufficient number of Trumpsky's cabinet would go along OR that Pence would sign off on it, both of which are essential.

    As for cabinet, mostly a collection of turkey's, co-conspirators AND "acting" secretaries, hard to see them making history, especially with ANY risk to themselves involved.

    BUT talking it up in the media to put pressure on POTUS, that's a different kettle o' fish.
    Do you think the impeachment thing is similarly doomed? I mean, even if they run the process on the 20x speed setting there still won't be enough GOP senators willing to stick their necks out, right?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    They don't mess about in Australia....

    Brisbane to enter three-day lockdown over single infection

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55582836
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531

    HYUFD said:
    I guess those leaks about the 25th Amendment were a negotiation.
    What I've had trouble with invoking the 25th (beside the short duration of remaining term) is notion that sufficient number of Trumpsky's cabinet would go along OR that Pence would sign off on it, both of which are essential.

    As for cabinet, mostly a collection of turkey's, co-conspirators AND "acting" secretaries, hard to see them making history, especially with ANY risk to themselves involved.

    BUT talking it up in the media to put pressure on POTUS, that's a different kettle o' fish.
    Do you think the impeachment thing is similarly doomed? I mean, even if they run the process on the 20x speed setting there still won't be enough GOP senators willing to stick their necks out, right?
    Yes. Talk of impeachment right now is just a why for eager beaver Democratic representatives to get their names in the papers and out in the blogosphere. And feed some red meat to their deeply-anti-Trumpsky base, at a time when it surely seems that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

    Talk of invoking 25th, in particular in major media and likes of Pelosi and similar notables, is different. Like I said, it's way of putting pressure on Trumpsky to put a cork in it. And seems like it just might be working.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Floater said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Superb polemic, Cyclefree.

    For once your loquacity benefits you.

    I used to think China would rise quietly, and benignly. Under Xi, however, it is aggressive, expansionist and hostile to many freedoms we hold dear. It has already, in effect, destroyed Hong Kong.

    I predict in the end the West will be forced to unite, much more than now, to confront it. The US, Oz, UK, EU. etc. The big question is where major nations like Brazil, Russia, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, will then position themselves.

    You follow the money.
    One quibble. China is not expansionist in any traditional sense. It has learned from the USSR. No point spending political and military capital overseas. Spend it at home instead.
    HK is China of course.
    Taiwan is the interesting one.
    You might want to look at what China is up to in the South China Sea
    Yep. They consider that "China".
    They don't consider Mozambique to be so.
    Oh thats ok then........
    Well. Yes and no.
    No, just no.

    Can you think of any other countries in history who made territorial claims on others?

    The UK?
    And we were classed as what?
    Depends who's asked. A "civilising influence" according to some.
    Perfidious Albion according to some.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 34,793

    They don't mess about in Australia....

    Brisbane to enter three-day lockdown over single infection

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55582836

    That's the Australian way. Infection? Total lockdown. Purge CV19.

    And then the rest of the time, normality.

    It's also the New Zealand way, and the China way.

    The worst way is the wishywashynotreallyalockdownnotenoughtoactuallygetridofthediseasebutjustenoughtodestroyeconomicactivity.
  • There should be a political market for criticising China in a non-bigoted way both here and the US. I find SNP/Labour/Tories are all similarly cowardly on the topic. The pandas are returning from Edinburgh zoo but not for a year or so.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248

    HYUFD said:
    I guess those leaks about the 25th Amendment were a negotiation.
    What I've had trouble with invoking the 25th (beside the short duration of remaining term) is notion that sufficient number of Trumpsky's cabinet would go along OR that Pence would sign off on it, both of which are essential.

    As for cabinet, mostly a collection of turkey's, co-conspirators AND "acting" secretaries, hard to see them making history, especially with ANY risk to themselves involved.

    BUT talking it up in the media to put pressure on POTUS, that's a different kettle o' fish.
    Do you think the impeachment thing is similarly doomed? I mean, even if they run the process on the 20x speed setting there still won't be enough GOP senators willing to stick their necks out, right?
    Yes. Talk of impeachment right now is just a why for eager beaver Democratic representatives to get their names in the papers and out in the blogosphere. And feed some red meat to their deeply-anti-Trumpsky base, at a time when it surely seems that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

    Talk of invoking 25th, in particular in major media and likes of Pelosi and similar notables, is different. Like I said, it's way of putting pressure on Trumpsky to put a cork in it. And seems like it just might be working.
    Nice, and at this point Trump probably doesn't trust Pence enough to attempt the "resign and get him to pardon me" maneuver, so it seems like he should make it to the end of his term unless someone goes too far with the presidential damage-limitation medications.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531
    Re: 25th amendment & role of cabinet, I find the announced, impending resignation of US Secretary of Commerce Elaine Chao, to be very interesting.

    OF course it is clear, personal & political statement against Trumpsky's incitement to a mob to attack the US Capitol, Congress and the Constitution. But it's more than that.

    For starters, note that Ms Chao, is the wife of Mitch McConnell. And that she has an extensive professional background in a) banking, labor (from management side) and banking (her father was a master mariner who founded a shipping business; and b) high-level appointed office in Republican administrations. She served under Reagan as Chair of Federal Maritime Commission, under Bush the Elder as Secretary of Transportation, then as Peace Corps Director. She was Bush the Younger's Secretary of Labor for the duration of his administration; the Washington Post said she was "widely criticized for walking away from its regulatory function across a range of issues, including wage and hour law and workplace safety".

    Likewise she has served as Secretary of Transportation for the duration (almost) of Trumpky's term. Note that IF The Donald had followed through on his pledge for a national infrastructure program, the US DOT would have been a KEY department and a beehive of activity. However, no such thing occurred - methinks by design. NOT Trumpsky's design - Mitch McConnell's.

    Because Trumpsky didn't give a damn about transportation or infrastructure (beyond his own). Whereas McConnell did and does. Of course billions and billions get spent even under a lean budget, but that's for (some) necessities PLUS contracts for favored districts and contractors and contributors, the lubricant of Beltway politics. It's keeping the overall level as LOW as possible, that's what Mitch wants.

    For this purpose, Elaine was perfect. Because she there, not to get things done for Trumpsky and the country (especially the MAGA half) but rather to keep things from happening (such as major investment in fast rail in California) in the interest of her husband and the big business wing of the GOP.

    Now, mission accomplished, Secretary Chao is resigning - yet again in service to her husband Mitch's career. I have no doubt that she sincerely deplores the mob attack, and is a one on this with her husband. At the same time, he's aligned himself with the Realo wing of the Republican Party versus the Trumpsky Fundi wing AND helped set the stage for working in some fashion (as yet to be determined) with President Biden.

    Fact that Democrats will have razor-thin margin in the US Senate - as long as VP Harris is in the chair anyway - will NOT mean that McConnell is chopped liver. Far from it! He may in fact provide critical votes needed to pass key legislation for Biden, especially if & when there is significant Democratic dissent (and won't take much).
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 2,531
    edited January 8

    HYUFD said:
    I guess those leaks about the 25th Amendment were a negotiation.
    What I've had trouble with invoking the 25th (beside the short duration of remaining term) is notion that sufficient number of Trumpsky's cabinet would go along OR that Pence would sign off on it, both of which are essential.

    As for cabinet, mostly a collection of turkey's, co-conspirators AND "acting" secretaries, hard to see them making history, especially with ANY risk to themselves involved.

    BUT talking it up in the media to put pressure on POTUS, that's a different kettle o' fish.
    Do you think the impeachment thing is similarly doomed? I mean, even if they run the process on the 20x speed setting there still won't be enough GOP senators willing to stick their necks out, right?
    Yes. Talk of impeachment right now is just a why for eager beaver Democratic representatives to get their names in the papers and out in the blogosphere. And feed some red meat to their deeply-anti-Trumpsky base, at a time when it surely seems that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!

    Talk of invoking 25th, in particular in major media and likes of Pelosi and similar notables, is different. Like I said, it's way of putting pressure on Trumpsky to put a cork in it. And seems like it just might be working.
    Nice, and at this point Trump probably doesn't trust Pence enough to attempt the "resign and get him to pardon me" maneuver, so it seems like he should make it to the end of his term unless someone goes too far with the presidential damage-limitation medications.
    Pence has zero incentive to pardon Trumpsky - and never did.

    Just look at what pardoning Nixon did for Ford!

    Of course you can say today that Trumpsky is WAY more popular than Nixon was when he got his pardon. But not sure you'll be able to say that in a few months or years.

    And Pence is NOT a wild and crazy kind of guy. In case you didn't notice!

    As for the meds, personally hope we get to see The Donald running stark naked down Pennsylvania on Inauguration Day morning, screaming at the top of his lungs that he's being attacked by giant, vampire lizards.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 3,726
    edited January 8


    This twitter thread reveals everything America has to deal with. Absolute and total polarisation in the posts.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,248

    Re: 25th amendment & role of cabinet, I find the announced, impending resignation of US Secretary of Commerce Elaine Chao, to be very interesting.

    OF course it is clear, personal & political statement against Trumpsky's incitement to a mob to attack the US Capitol, Congress and the Constitution. But it's more than that.

    For starters, note that Ms Chao, is the wife of Mitch McConnell. And that she has an extensive professional background in a) banking, labor (from management side) and banking (her father was a master mariner who founded a shipping business; and b) high-level appointed office in Republican administrations. She served under Reagan as Chair of Federal Maritime Commission, under Bush the Elder as Secretary of Transportation, then as Peace Corps Director. She was Bush the Younger's Secretary of Labor for the duration of his administration; the Washington Post said she was "widely criticized for walking away from its regulatory function across a range of issues, including wage and hour law and workplace safety".

    Likewise she has served as Secretary of Transportation for the duration (almost) of Trumpky's term. Note that IF The Donald had followed through on his pledge for a national infrastructure program, the US DOT would have been a KEY department and a beehive of activity. However, no such thing occurred - methinks by design. NOT Trumpsky's design - Mitch McConnell's.

    Because Trumpsky didn't give a damn about transportation or infrastructure (beyond his own). Whereas McConnell did and does. Of course billions and billions get spent even under a lean budget, but that's for (some) necessities PLUS contracts for favored districts and contractors and contributors, the lubricant of Beltway politics. It's keeping the overall level as LOW as possible, that's what Mitch wants.

    For this purpose, Elaine was perfect. Because she there, not to get things done for Trumpsky and the country (especially the MAGA half) but rather to keep things from happening (such as major investment in fast rail in California) in the interest of her husband and the big business wing of the GOP.

    Now, mission accomplished, Secretary Chao is resigning - yet again in service to her husband Mitch's career. I have no doubt that she sincerely deplores the mob attack, and is a one on this with her husband. At the same time, he's aligned himself with the Realo wing of the Republican Party versus the Trumpsky Fundi wing AND helped set the stage for working in some fashion (as yet to be determined) with President Biden.

    Fact that Democrats will have razor-thin margin in the US Senate - as long as VP Harris is in the chair anyway - will NOT mean that McConnell is chopped liver. Far from it! He may in fact provide critical votes needed to pass key legislation for Biden, especially if & when there is significant Democratic dissent (and won't take much).

    The way Mitch McConnell has played Trump has been amazing. Nearly everyone else who tried to work with Trump has been destroyed in the process, yet Mitch got nearly everything he wanted, and ended up destroying Trump.

    I always wondered how these incredibly uncharismatic people like him and Schumer (and to a lesser extent, Pelosi) manage to make it to these top jobs and hang on to them for so long, I guess they're just insanely great strategists.
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