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Both Trump and Biden stage Georgia rallies on the eve of today’s Georgia runoffs – politicalbetting.

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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Agreed 100%. We're too bloody nice, that's our problem!
    I know. When they go low we go "oh alright then."

    But not any more. Or certainly not with me today. I'm craving cigarettes and fired up even further by a particularly high octane OJ video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d10yMLRKAEs
    Ha. No, this one below. The last 12 mins in particular. Funnily enough he is making essentially the same point you made a while ago. Labour should stop supporting this shambolic Tory government.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1346192470133018625
    Surely the premise for the Opposition should be that everything you would do is better than anything the government has done or is planning.

    Even JC got that.
    Since Ive been able to vote there have only been two oppositions that won power, under Blair and Cameron. Both accepted large chunks of the incumbent govts policies and platform as a price for gaining power to the disappointment of their party loyalists.

    What evidence is there that opposing everything works? I think that history shows that to be a big mistake.
    I'm not a student of politics so no idea about the historical precendent. Lab had been out of power for many years and people wanted reassurance that the far left was truly dead and buried and hence Blair made that commitment. Cameron of course, failed to win an OM so not sure his move towards Lab-ish policies worked all that well.

    Going back to 1997, people were sick of the Cons, sleaze abounded, and the country was ready for a change. But the economy was in pretty good shape (some chronic underspending on public services nothwithstanding).

    Today do we think everything is going swimmingly and hence the country doesn't need a meaningful alternative?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Brilliant! 360 fewer Irish HGVs on our roads. What's not to like?
    That rather assumes that all of them were heading for the other end (ie Dover).
    You think they might be planning to board a ferry from Cherbourg to Portsmouth?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited January 2021

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Brilliant! 360 fewer Irish HGVs on our roads. What's not to like?
    That rather assumes that all of them were heading for the other end (ie Dover). It's not as if there is a train tunnel or ferry to take containers.
    Well they wouldn't be taking a ferry to France if they were due to drop off a load in Birmingham.
    I did say 'all'. We don't know the situation before Xmas. The French ferry might have been just as chokka then. Edit: Or partly empty.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Angela Rayner is a success story the Labour Party should make more of. Left school at 16 with no GCSEs and a baby, became a carer then into the Labour Party via the union route. She talks northern, understands what its like to have nothing but responsibilities and no money. She could cut through to the ex-red wall.

    But too many in the party hate her for saying Tony Blair changed her life.

    Fair enough but you can walk down any housing estate in the country and find someone who left school at 16 with no GCSEs and had a baby, you can use them in an election broadcast, you do not need to make them your candidate to be PM!
    You are really quite the university and qualifications snob aren't you?
    For me it is an imperative that the PM of ANY country is very well educated, well qualified and of high intellect. Is that controversial?
    Oxford not necessarily a guarantor of those qualities..
    If it is the chumocracy they have it written out at start of their first term
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Interesting move from Pence if true, although the indication is that Grassley has immediately back-tracked (whether because he was misquoted or let the cat out of the bag too early is unclear).
    Wonder where he's off to?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited January 2021

    BBC News - TalkRadio: YouTube kicks channel off its platform
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55544205

    I never watch it, but aren't the "controversial" anti-lockdown guests they had on the same faces we have seen on BBC and Sky numerous times?


    Broadcast regulation does not address who appears, but what they say and how it is contextualised.

    There is absolutely no problem having David Icke on TV - the problem is if he is allowed to expound his conspiracy theories with no push back or context.
    Gupta and co are no more challenged on BBC, because the presenters aren't clued up enough to do so. And although I think the likes.of Gupta are spouting nonsense, they aren't anywhere near the category of David Icke or Alex Jones, they hold or have held esteemed positions.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!

    Restless Natives remains a timeless classic...
    And Trainspotting 2 for the Craigmillar flat IIRC.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Scott_xP said:
    Excellent. Nobody in Wales wants these HGVs trundling along the A55.
  • Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Angela Rayner is a success story the Labour Party should make more of. Left school at 16 with no GCSEs and a baby, became a carer then into the Labour Party via the union route. She talks northern, understands what its like to have nothing but responsibilities and no money. She could cut through to the ex-red wall.

    But too many in the party hate her for saying Tony Blair changed her life.

    Fair enough but you can walk down any housing estate in the country and find someone who left school at 16 with no GCSEs and had a baby, you can use them in an election broadcast, you do not need to make them your candidate to be PM!
    You are really quite the university and qualifications snob aren't you?
    For me it is an imperative that the PM of ANY country is very well educated, well qualified and of high intellect. Is that controversial?
    Nobody who is very well educated, well qualified and of high intellect is going to be remotely interested in being PM.

    First, there are way more interesting things to do. Whether you seek rewards in monetary terms, in terms of intellectual endeavour or in terms of helping people, there are just much, much more attractive & satisfying careers.

    Secondly, to actually get to be PM, you would need the membership of the Labour Party or the Tory party to choose you in the first place. In other words, you'd need to appeal to people like HYUFD or Gabble, the brain-dead or nearly so.

    Thirdly, the job involves such intrusions into family or personal live that no-one remotely normal will be interested. Who wants 24 hour rolling news pouring over every detail of your life -- and your partner's and your children's -- in real-time?

    The job of PM is reserved for people of very modest intelligence with severe personality disorders.
    Hehe, more than a grain of truth in your last statement. I once considered standing to be an MP and a number of my politico friends thought I might or should. No idea whether I would have been selected, but bottled it in the end though. Didn't think I could cope with constant intrusion and toxic atmosphere, plus having to pander to swiveleyed activists most of whom were one step away from the asylum. Not sure whether being an almost politician suggests I have a less severe personality disorder or a greater one?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Some aviation stats

    Airline accident fatalities were higher in 2020 than in 2019 notwithstanding the reduction in air travel.

    Eurocontrol thinks it will be 2026 before flight numbers recover to pre covid levels
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    Your boss talks bollox, it may be among the toffs to try and boost their inferiority complexes but certainly not among general public.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Agreed 100%. We're too bloody nice, that's our problem!
    I know. When they go low we go "oh alright then."

    But not any more. Or certainly not with me today. I'm craving cigarettes and fired up even further by a particularly high octane OJ video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d10yMLRKAEs
    Ha. No, this one below. The last 12 mins in particular. Funnily enough he is making essentially the same point you made a while ago. Labour should stop supporting this shambolic Tory government.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1346192470133018625
    Surely the premise for the Opposition should be that everything you would do is better than anything the government has done or is planning.

    Even JC got that.
    Since Ive been able to vote there have only been two oppositions that won power, under Blair and Cameron. Both accepted large chunks of the incumbent govts policies and platform as a price for gaining power to the disappointment of their party loyalists.

    What evidence is there that opposing everything works? I think that history shows that to be a big mistake.
    I'm not a student of politics so no idea about the historical precendent. Lab had been out of power for many years and people wanted reassurance that the far left was truly dead and buried and hence Blair made that commitment. Cameron of course, failed to win an OM so not sure his move towards Lab-ish policies worked all that well.

    Going back to 1997, people were sick of the Cons, sleaze abounded, and the country was ready for a change. But the economy was in pretty good shape (some chronic underspending on public services nothwithstanding).

    Today do we think everything is going swimmingly and hence the country doesn't need a meaningful alternative?
    Despite being a frequent critic I think the govt have ended up doing most things right on the pandemic, but only after repeated delay, incompetence and poor communication that has cost lives. The country does not want an anti lockdown government or to reverse Brexit, it wants a govt that can manage lockdown better and a govt that can work with the EU to make Brexit work.

    There is actually some chance we get close to that if the PM kicks out this pathetic cabinet and brings in the grown ups - it would be shameless and disloyal but I wouldnt put it past him. If not that is what Starmer is looking to offer, a more efficient government, not a radical reforming government.
  • Lando Norris: McLaren formula one driver tests positive for Covid-19 in Dubai - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55546167
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    This is an interesting point about the contest for the 2024 Republican nomination - pandering to Trump and his base might tend to lose their votes rather than win them.

    https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/1346475734995357697

    https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/1346477882223124482
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

  • Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited January 2021

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    bloody southerners
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    bloody southerners
    And you've got Trump coming soon too, probably bringing his American variant.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Excellent. Nobody in Wales wants these HGVs trundling along the A55.
    Indeed and if the Irish still want to sell into the UK they will have no choice but to either ferry or air freight in

    Mind you I expect this is more to do with French covid restrictions from the UK, then something sinister that would excite Scott's BDS
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Agreed 100%. We're too bloody nice, that's our problem!
    I know. When they go low we go "oh alright then."

    But not any more. Or certainly not with me today. I'm craving cigarettes and fired up even further by a particularly high octane OJ video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d10yMLRKAEs
    Ha. No, this one below. The last 12 mins in particular. Funnily enough he is making essentially the same point you made a while ago. Labour should stop supporting this shambolic Tory government.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1346192470133018625
    Surely the premise for the Opposition should be that everything you would do is better than anything the government has done or is planning.

    Even JC got that.
    Since Ive been able to vote there have only been two oppositions that won power, under Blair and Cameron. Both accepted large chunks of the incumbent govts policies and platform as a price for gaining power to the disappointment of their party loyalists.

    What evidence is there that opposing everything works? I think that history shows that to be a big mistake.
    I'm not a student of politics so no idea about the historical precendent. Lab had been out of power for many years and people wanted reassurance that the far left was truly dead and buried and hence Blair made that commitment. Cameron of course, failed to win an OM so not sure his move towards Lab-ish policies worked all that well.

    Going back to 1997, people were sick of the Cons, sleaze abounded, and the country was ready for a change. But the economy was in pretty good shape (some chronic underspending on public services nothwithstanding).

    Today do we think everything is going swimmingly and hence the country doesn't need a meaningful alternative?
    Despite being a frequent critic I think the govt have ended up doing most things right on the pandemic, but only after repeated delay, incompetence and poor communication that has cost lives. The country does not want an anti lockdown government or to reverse Brexit, it wants a govt that can manage lockdown better and a govt that can work with the EU to make Brexit work.

    There is actually some chance we get close to that if the PM kicks out this pathetic cabinet and brings in the grown ups - it would be shameless and disloyal but I wouldnt put it past him. If not that is what Starmer is looking to offer, a more efficient government, not a radical reforming government.
    No one is saying there haven't been difficult decisions to make but as you point out, not making those decisions or making them too late has had consequences. Effects of the virus aside (!) this govt has undermined confidence in the governmental process - the schools fiasco is a clear example.

    But the mantra of the Opposition is that they would have handled everything differently and better. Everything. I get the national interest angle but to use an example I have discussed with @Philip_Thompson regarding current spending, once you deem one issue as a national emergency then everything (poverty, homelessness, the NHS, unemployment) can become a national emergency also.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    I did.

    But then I also spotted that you are an Index Sequential Access Method, you old database you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited January 2021

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Angela Rayner is a success story the Labour Party should make more of. Left school at 16 with no GCSEs and a baby, became a carer then into the Labour Party via the union route. She talks northern, understands what its like to have nothing but responsibilities and no money. She could cut through to the ex-red wall.

    But too many in the party hate her for saying Tony Blair changed her life.

    Fair enough but you can walk down any housing estate in the country and find someone who left school at 16 with no GCSEs and had a baby, you can use them in an election broadcast, you do not need to make them your candidate to be PM!
    You are really quite the university and qualifications snob aren't you?
    For me it is an imperative that the PM of ANY country is very well educated, well qualified and of high intellect. Is that controversial?
    Nobody who is very well educated, well qualified and of high intellect is going to be remotely interested in being PM.

    First, there are way more interesting things to do. Whether you seek rewards in monetary terms, in terms of intellectual endeavour or in terms of helping people, there are just much, much more attractive & satisfying careers.

    Secondly, to actually get to be PM, you would need the membership of the Labour Party or the Tory party to choose you in the first place. In other words, you'd need to appeal to people like HYUFD or Gabble, the brain-dead or nearly so.

    Thirdly, the job involves such intrusions into family or personal live that no-one remotely normal will be interested. Who wants 24 hour rolling news pouring over every detail of your life -- and your partner's and your children's -- in real-time?

    The job of PM is reserved for people of very modest intelligence with severe personality disorders.
    Which is still more than average intelligence and given the average salary in the UK is £31,461 a year and the PM earns £158,754 a year gets a house in central London and a mansion in the country and chauffeur driven car with police escort through traffic, I suspect more than a few people walking down the street would jump at the chance to be PM regardless of the intrusion and responsibility.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    How is upper Tweeddale doing (above Glashiels, roughly)?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214



    Nobody who is very well educated, well qualified and of high intellect is going to be remotely interested in being PM.

    Basically all of our prime ministers are well educated and of high intellect. Sadly that isn't normally enough.

    Personally I think we have a real problem that parliament is stuffed full of spads and lawyers.
    We need more diverse backgrounds.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited January 2021
    malcolmg said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    Your boss talks bollox, it may be among the toffs to try and boost their inferiority complexes but certainly not among general public.
    God forbid someone suggest there are any similarities between cultures intertwined in ways small and large for so long even when separate.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    The Johnson Children on wiki,

    Big bro, Boris read Literae Humaniores at Oxford and got a 2.1.

    Little sis, Rachel read Literae Humaniores at Oxford and got a 2.1 [citation neeeded].

    Little bro, Jo read History at Oxford and got a First.

    That accords with my impression. The cleverest of the Johnsons is Jo Johnson, who was driven out of politics. (He was a very competent Minister for the Universities)

    Jo read a more difficult and intellectually demanding subject and got a better degree than his thick, lazy elder brother and his irritating, smug sister.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Looks fine. And it was demolished? Why?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    They had 50 years to wait for it - the relentless rain has meant that these works have been in plan since the 70s.

    I think these photos were taken in 2008 when God popped along to give Brown his halo and dispense aircraft carriers all round.

    There is nothing better than a bright Scottish morning. Nothing more dismal than a Scottish rainy afternoon. Oddly I feel that these two undoubted facts sum up someone or other.. :)
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    To be honest Starmer can say what he likes but when the one place that has a Labour administration, Wales, is ignoring him and compromising his message it is just so contradictory

    Even today Drakeford still has the schools going back on the 18th January and before Boris spoke all primary schools were going back tomorrow

  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Agreed 100%. We're too bloody nice, that's our problem!
    I know. When they go low we go "oh alright then."

    But not any more. Or certainly not with me today. I'm craving cigarettes and fired up even further by a particularly high octane OJ video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d10yMLRKAEs
    Ha. No, this one below. The last 12 mins in particular. Funnily enough he is making essentially the same point you made a while ago. Labour should stop supporting this shambolic Tory government.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1346192470133018625
    Surely the premise for the Opposition should be that everything you would do is better than anything the government has done or is planning.

    Even JC got that.
    Since Ive been able to vote there have only been two oppositions that won power, under Blair and Cameron. Both accepted large chunks of the incumbent govts policies and platform as a price for gaining power to the disappointment of their party loyalists.

    What evidence is there that opposing everything works? I think that history shows that to be a big mistake.
    I'm not a student of politics so no idea about the historical precendent. Lab had been out of power for many years and people wanted reassurance that the far left was truly dead and buried and hence Blair made that commitment. Cameron of course, failed to win an OM so not sure his move towards Lab-ish policies worked all that well.

    Going back to 1997, people were sick of the Cons, sleaze abounded, and the country was ready for a change. But the economy was in pretty good shape (some chronic underspending on public services nothwithstanding).

    Today do we think everything is going swimmingly and hence the country doesn't need a meaningful alternative?
    Despite being a frequent critic I think the govt have ended up doing most things right on the pandemic, but only after repeated delay, incompetence and poor communication that has cost lives. The country does not want an anti lockdown government or to reverse Brexit, it wants a govt that can manage lockdown better and a govt that can work with the EU to make Brexit work.

    There is actually some chance we get close to that if the PM kicks out this pathetic cabinet and brings in the grown ups - it would be shameless and disloyal but I wouldnt put it past him. If not that is what Starmer is looking to offer, a more efficient government, not a radical reforming government.
    No one is saying there haven't been difficult decisions to make but as you point out, not making those decisions or making them too late has had consequences. Effects of the virus aside (!) this govt has undermined confidence in the governmental process - the schools fiasco is a clear example.

    But the mantra of the Opposition is that they would have handled everything differently and better. Everything. I get the national interest angle but to use an example I have discussed with @Philip_Thompson regarding current spending, once you deem one issue as a national emergency then everything (poverty, homelessness, the NHS, unemployment) can become a national emergency also.
    From someone who has voted Tory, Labour, LD and Green, I think Cameron and Blair had it right, offer competence primarily along with a couple of flagship policies, the rest stays the same, at least initially. Starmer has started with the competence angle and has 3-4 years to develop a couple of flagship policies.

    Political partisans on both sides may love the oppose and have clear dividing lines between the parties but it is very hard to win an election as the opposition on that basis.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    Well, quite - if your opponent exposes his left flank then that's where you've got to hit him.

    I do sympathize a little with Starmer's predicament, since he's essentially following the right strategy but that means incurring the wrath of his ultras, much as Boris has on lockdown (though he seems to have won them over surprisingly well with his Deal). Did you see how the Squad are now being attacked as sellouts by their own base, for the crime of not burning down the House as soon as they set foot in it?

    Politics and politicians would be the better for having less mercurial supporters. Like me, for example.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    British Society for Immunology statement on COVID-19 vaccine dosing schedules
    https://www.immunology.org/policy-and-public-affairs/briefings-and-position-statements/COVID-19-vaccine-dosing-schedules
    ...although we would prefer the original dosing schedules tested in the trials to be used clinically, we recognise that a pragmatic approach in the short-term is needed, and accept the rationale for the change in dosing schedule for the Oxford/AstraZeneca and for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that has been recommended by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI). Our reasons for this can be summarised as follows...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    I did.

    But then I also spotted that you are an Index Sequential Access Method, you old database you.
    Blimey! The wiki explanation of ISAM has given me a headache!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021

    The Johnson Children on wiki,

    Big bro, Boris read Literae Humaniores at Oxford and got a 2.1.

    Little sis, Rachel read Literae Humaniores at Oxford and got a 2.1 [citation neeeded].

    Little bro, Jo read History at Oxford and got a First.

    That accords with my impression. The cleverest of the Johnsons is Jo Johnson, who was driven out of politics. (He was a very competent Minister for the Universities)

    Jo read a more difficult and intellectually demanding subject and got a better degree than his thick, lazy elder brother and his irritating, smug sister.

    Harshly put but probably with a fair amount of truth.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    bloody southerners
    And you've got Trump coming soon too, probably bringing his American variant.
    Could put him in precautionary quarantine for a few... years.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
    Wasn't Cumbernauld where Gregor's Girl was set/filmed?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited January 2021

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Agreed 100%. We're too bloody nice, that's our problem!
    I know. When they go low we go "oh alright then."

    But not any more. Or certainly not with me today. I'm craving cigarettes and fired up even further by a particularly high octane OJ video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d10yMLRKAEs
    Ha. No, this one below. The last 12 mins in particular. Funnily enough he is making essentially the same point you made a while ago. Labour should stop supporting this shambolic Tory government.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1346192470133018625
    Surely the premise for the Opposition should be that everything you would do is better than anything the government has done or is planning.

    Even JC got that.
    Since Ive been able to vote there have only been two oppositions that won power, under Blair and Cameron. Both accepted large chunks of the incumbent govts policies and platform as a price for gaining power to the disappointment of their party loyalists.

    What evidence is there that opposing everything works? I think that history shows that to be a big mistake.
    I'm not a student of politics so no idea about the historical precendent. Lab had been out of power for many years and people wanted reassurance that the far left was truly dead and buried and hence Blair made that commitment. Cameron of course, failed to win an OM so not sure his move towards Lab-ish policies worked all that well.

    Going back to 1997, people were sick of the Cons, sleaze abounded, and the country was ready for a change. But the economy was in pretty good shape (some chronic underspending on public services nothwithstanding).

    Today do we think everything is going swimmingly and hence the country doesn't need a meaningful alternative?
    Despite being a frequent critic I think the govt have ended up doing most things right on the pandemic, but only after repeated delay, incompetence and poor communication that has cost lives. The country does not want an anti lockdown government or to reverse Brexit, it wants a govt that can manage lockdown better and a govt that can work with the EU to make Brexit work.

    There is actually some chance we get close to that if the PM kicks out this pathetic cabinet and brings in the grown ups - it would be shameless and disloyal but I wouldnt put it past him. If not that is what Starmer is looking to offer, a more efficient government, not a radical reforming government.
    No one is saying there haven't been difficult decisions to make but as you point out, not making those decisions or making them too late has had consequences. Effects of the virus aside (!) this govt has undermined confidence in the governmental process - the schools fiasco is a clear example.

    But the mantra of the Opposition is that they would have handled everything differently and better. Everything. I get the national interest angle but to use an example I have discussed with @Philip_Thompson regarding current spending, once you deem one issue as a national emergency then everything (poverty, homelessness, the NHS, unemployment) can become a national emergency also.
    From someone who has voted Tory, Labour, LD and Green, I think Cameron and Blair had it right, offer competence primarily along with a couple of flagship policies, the rest stays the same, at least initially. Starmer has started with the competence angle and has 3-4 years to develop a couple of flagship policies.

    Political partisans on both sides may love the oppose and have clear dividing lines between the parties but it is very hard to win an election as the opposition on that basis.
    Attlee and Thatcher probably the only 2 party leaders to do so in the last 80 years
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    The Johnson Children on wiki,

    Big bro, Boris read Literae Humaniores at Oxford and got a 2.1.

    Little sis, Rachel read Literae Humaniores at Oxford and got a 2.1 [citation neeeded].

    Little bro, Jo read History at Oxford and got a First.

    That accords with my impression. The cleverest of the Johnsons is Jo Johnson, who was driven out of politics. (He was a very competent Minister for the Universities)

    Jo read a more difficult and intellectually demanding subject and got a better degree than his thick, lazy elder brother and his irritating, smug sister.

    Gosh, did someone drop a Liddell & Scott on your foot when you were younger?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
    In fairness, much of it was flattened already in the 1980s-1990s - I was in Glasgow for some postgraduate course stuff and took the chance to have a walk from Pollok Park to the town centre.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    bloody southerners
    And you've got Trump coming soon too, probably bringing his American variant.
    Could put him in precautionary quarantine for a few... years.
    I also read yesterday that non-essential flights into Scotland were suspended under the Covid restrictions. I suppose he may have some form of diplomatic immunity until the 20th, stay on the Presidential plane on the tarmac, and then clear on to Andorra, or wherever else he might want to go without extradition agreements with the US.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    Sky's been blue in Ayrshire for most of the last couple of weeks other than one day. Given the only thing we can do now (and indeed have been able to do for a while) is go for a walk, this is most welcome.

    Chilly and vaguely icy in the non-gritted parts but generally about as decent weather as you can expect for this time of year!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Looks fine. And it was demolished? Why?
    That’s what replaced what was demolished.
    https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/the-gorbals-through-the-years-12676973
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,302
    edited January 2021
    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    Yes. as a child. I was taught to the remember the order of the colours of the rainbow as

    Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain

    (Or Roy G Biv for short).
  • Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    How is upper Tweeddale doing (above Glashiels, roughly)?
    Gala itself is OK. Tweeddale East is up massively. I also spoke too soon about Berwickshire, as I've just seen some updated figures this afternoon and Berwickshire East is now massively in the shit. Too many Hogmanay parties in Eyemouth?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited January 2021

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Agreed 100%. We're too bloody nice, that's our problem!
    I know. When they go low we go "oh alright then."

    But not any more. Or certainly not with me today. I'm craving cigarettes and fired up even further by a particularly high octane OJ video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d10yMLRKAEs
    Ha. No, this one below. The last 12 mins in particular. Funnily enough he is making essentially the same point you made a while ago. Labour should stop supporting this shambolic Tory government.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1346192470133018625
    Surely the premise for the Opposition should be that everything you would do is better than anything the government has done or is planning.

    Even JC got that.
    Since Ive been able to vote there have only been two oppositions that won power, under Blair and Cameron. Both accepted large chunks of the incumbent govts policies and platform as a price for gaining power to the disappointment of their party loyalists.

    What evidence is there that opposing everything works? I think that history shows that to be a big mistake.
    I'm not a student of politics so no idea about the historical precendent. Lab had been out of power for many years and people wanted reassurance that the far left was truly dead and buried and hence Blair made that commitment. Cameron of course, failed to win an OM so not sure his move towards Lab-ish policies worked all that well.

    Going back to 1997, people were sick of the Cons, sleaze abounded, and the country was ready for a change. But the economy was in pretty good shape (some chronic underspending on public services nothwithstanding).

    Today do we think everything is going swimmingly and hence the country doesn't need a meaningful alternative?
    Despite being a frequent critic I think the govt have ended up doing most things right on the pandemic, but only after repeated delay, incompetence and poor communication that has cost lives. The country does not want an anti lockdown government or to reverse Brexit, it wants a govt that can manage lockdown better and a govt that can work with the EU to make Brexit work.

    There is actually some chance we get close to that if the PM kicks out this pathetic cabinet and brings in the grown ups - it would be shameless and disloyal but I wouldnt put it past him. If not that is what Starmer is looking to offer, a more efficient government, not a radical reforming government.
    No one is saying there haven't been difficult decisions to make but as you point out, not making those decisions or making them too late has had consequences. Effects of the virus aside (!) this govt has undermined confidence in the governmental process - the schools fiasco is a clear example.

    But the mantra of the Opposition is that they would have handled everything differently and better. Everything. I get the national interest angle but to use an example I have discussed with @Philip_Thompson regarding current spending, once you deem one issue as a national emergency then everything (poverty, homelessness, the NHS, unemployment) can become a national emergency also.
    From someone who has voted Tory, Labour, LD and Green, I think Cameron and Blair had it right, offer competence primarily along with a couple of flagship policies, the rest stays the same, at least initially. Starmer has started with the competence angle and has 3-4 years to develop a couple of flagship policies.

    Political partisans on both sides may love the oppose and have clear dividing lines between the parties but it is very hard to win an election as the opposition on that basis.
    You really should be anyoftheabove.
    While we are on the subject of user names.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    Politics and politicians would be the better for having less mercurial supporters. Like me, for example.
    Perhaps a middle ground may be reached? :)
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    How is upper Tweeddale doing (above Glashiels, roughly)?
    If you select the Borders on the "Cases by neighborhood" page here you can see individual areas within.

    https://public.tableau.com/profile/phs.covid.19#!/vizhome/COVID-19DailyDashboard_15960160643010/Overview
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    As a child. I was taught to the remember the order of the colours of the rainbow as

    Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain

    (Or Roy G Biv for short).
    Yes, I was going through that to remember them when I realised it spelt or spelled RoyGBiv.

    ‘Ruth of York Gave Birth’ was the other one we were taught
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    Politics and politicians would be the better for having less mercurial supporters. Like me, for example.
    Perhaps a middle ground may be reached? :)
    I'm sure I've said it before, but like Bernard Woolley you are the 'perfect balanced sample' of PB :smile:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Lando Norris: McLaren formula one driver tests positive for Covid-19 in Dubai - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55546167

    Bloody British tourists, bringing their viruses with them on holiday.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    On the coast but we have had 3 days in a row , cold indeed but sunny, probably summer gone
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    Politics and politicians would be the better for having less mercurial supporters. Like me, for example.
    Perhaps a middle ground may be reached? :)
    I'm sure I've said it before, but like Bernard Woolley you are the 'perfect balanced sample' of PB :smile:
    And I'm sure I've said it before, Bernard is my idol!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Looks fine. And it was demolished? Why?
    That’s what replaced what was demolished.
    https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/the-gorbals-through-the-years-12676973
    London was a dump in the 70's never mind the 40's. How many parts demolished and why.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    What do americans do on polling day? Do they also have to fill up airtime with shots of dogs outside polling stations, and reports of 'brisk' turnout?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,321
    Trump now trying to put Pence in the hotseat.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346488314157797389
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    Sky's been blue in Ayrshire for most of the last couple of weeks other than one day. Given the only thing we can do now (and indeed have been able to do for a while) is go for a walk, this is most welcome.

    Chilly and vaguely icy in the non-gritted parts but generally about as decent weather as you can expect for this time of year!
    Been a great change from the rain we previously had, hopefully it stays this way.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
    Wasn't Cumbernauld where Gregor's Girl was set/filmed?
    It was indeed and was not so bad in those days, the shopping centre etc did not wear well , there must have been lots of crap architects going about in those days.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Trump now trying to put Pence in the hotseat.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346488314157797389

    Sounds totally plausible that the framers intended one man to be able to arbitrarily decide whether to accept the results certified by a State, based on his political preferences.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited January 2021


    Gaussian said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    How is upper Tweeddale doing (above Glashiels, roughly)?
    If you select the Borders on the "Cases by neighborhood" page here you can see individual areas within.

    https://public.tableau.com/profile/phs.covid.19#!/vizhome/COVID-19DailyDashboard_15960160643010/Overview
    Many thanks - I hadn't cottoned on to how it works and this made me try again.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
    How soon Tories forget their background , telling you never picked a dump from olden days in England.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    kle4 said:

    Trump now trying to put Pence in the hotseat.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346488314157797389

    Sounds totally plausible that the framers intended one man to be able to arbitrarily decide whether to accept the results certified by a State, based on his political preferences.
    When you put it like that ... :smiley:
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Jeremy Corbyn is slightly shorter odds to be next London mayor than Piers Corbyn, who has of course announced his candidacy.

    Brian Rose continues to motor on - he's about 100x as likely to be Mayor as dipstick and dumbleweed.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    Sky's been blue in Ayrshire for most of the last couple of weeks other than one day. Given the only thing we can do now (and indeed have been able to do for a while) is go for a walk, this is most welcome.

    Chilly and vaguely icy in the non-gritted parts but generally about as decent weather as you can expect for this time of year!
    Solarflare , are you in North , south or east
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    I did.

    But then I also spotted that you are an Index Sequential Access Method, you old database you.
    Blimey! The wiki explanation of ISAM has given me a headache!
    No clever story behind my name. It was a mispronounciation of 'Sequin' that my older sibling did when he was very young and me and my younger sibling picked up from him. My mum found it very cute, and when she told me the story in my teens I thought it was an interesting word which was unique to our family. Perfect username fodder.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Gaussian said:

    Scottish case details are out, with some surprises. Among the worst affected now are Dumfries&Galloway and the Borders with case rates in the 400s and 500s. They had dropped to level 1 a couple weeks before Christmas ...

    Stranraer had a massive outbreak just after Christmas. The question is if it has spread to the rest of Dumfreis and Galloway or if it is being tracked and traced in the western edge.

    Borders is just fucked though.
    Lots of people crossing the Border for non-essential reasons e.g. a colleague telling me about a group of his pals coming up from Tyneside to play golf. Local data shows it's hitting the central Borders where people go for golf/fishing/mountain biking/walking holidays rather than the East coast, where the holiday parks are closed.

    A.Moonbeam, your reporter on the ground.
    How is upper Tweeddale doing (above Glashiels, roughly)?
    Gala itself is OK. Tweeddale East is up massively. I also spoke too soon about Berwickshire, as I've just seen some updated figures this afternoon and Berwickshire East is now massively in the shit. Too many Hogmanay parties in Eyemouth?
    Thankls for that - some tooth sucking though I can be all the more relieved one elderly relative has now had the first of her two jabs.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314
    edited January 2021

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Agreed 100%. We're too bloody nice, that's our problem!
    I know. When they go low we go "oh alright then."

    But not any more. Or certainly not with me today. I'm craving cigarettes and fired up even further by a particularly high octane OJ video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d10yMLRKAEs
    Ha. No, this one below. The last 12 mins in particular. Funnily enough he is making essentially the same point you made a while ago. Labour should stop supporting this shambolic Tory government.
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1346192470133018625
    Surely the premise for the Opposition should be that everything you would do is better than anything the government has done or is planning.

    Even JC got that.
    Since Ive been able to vote there have only been two oppositions that won power, under Blair and Cameron. Both accepted large chunks of the incumbent govts policies and platform as a price for gaining power to the disappointment of their party loyalists.

    What evidence is there that opposing everything works? I think that history shows that to be a big mistake.
    I'm not a student of politics so no idea about the historical precendent. Lab had been out of power for many years and people wanted reassurance that the far left was truly dead and buried and hence Blair made that commitment. Cameron of course, failed to win an OM so not sure his move towards Lab-ish policies worked all that well.

    Going back to 1997, people were sick of the Cons, sleaze abounded, and the country was ready for a change. But the economy was in pretty good shape (some chronic underspending on public services nothwithstanding).

    Today do we think everything is going swimmingly and hence the country doesn't need a meaningful alternative?
    Despite being a frequent critic I think the govt have ended up doing most things right on the pandemic, but only after repeated delay, incompetence and poor communication that has cost lives. The country does not want an anti lockdown government or to reverse Brexit, it wants a govt that can manage lockdown better and a govt that can work with the EU to make Brexit work.

    There is actually some chance we get close to that if the PM kicks out this pathetic cabinet and brings in the grown ups - it would be shameless and disloyal but I wouldnt put it past him. If not that is what Starmer is looking to offer, a more efficient government, not a radical reforming government.
    No one is saying there haven't been difficult decisions to make but as you point out, not making those decisions or making them too late has had consequences. Effects of the virus aside (!) this govt has undermined confidence in the governmental process - the schools fiasco is a clear example.

    But the mantra of the Opposition is that they would have handled everything differently and better. Everything. I get the national interest angle but to use an example I have discussed with @Philip_Thompson regarding current spending, once you deem one issue as a national emergency then everything (poverty, homelessness, the NHS, unemployment) can become a national emergency also.
    From someone who has voted Tory, Labour, LD and Green, I think Cameron and Blair had it right, offer competence primarily along with a couple of flagship policies, the rest stays the same, at least initially. Starmer has started with the competence angle and has 3-4 years to develop a couple of flagship policies.

    Political partisans on both sides may love the oppose and have clear dividing lines between the parties but it is very hard to win an election as the opposition on that basis.
    Given your first sentence, maybe you should change your name to 'alloftheabove'?
    Delete - beaten to it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Its freezer kaput, this NorCal hospital had two hours to give out 600 vaccine shots
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-04/freezer-broken-california-town-had-to-use-or-lose-vaccine-shots
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Omnium said:

    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    They had 50 years to wait for it - the relentless rain has meant that these works have been in plan since the 70s.

    I think these photos were taken in 2008 when God popped along to give Brown his halo and dispense aircraft carriers all round.

    There is nothing better than a bright Scottish morning. Nothing more dismal than a Scottish rainy afternoon. Oddly I feel that these two undoubted facts sum up someone or other.. :)
    You >:)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited January 2021

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    To be honest Starmer can say what he likes but when the one place that has a Labour administration, Wales, is ignoring him and compromising his message it is just so contradictory

    Even today Drakeford still has the schools going back on the 18th January and before Boris spoke all primary schools were going back tomorrow

    Drakeford. Has there ever been such an underrated politician? I say this not as a supporter of his - I'm not - but as a factual deduction from the posts on here about him. It's as if the bloke gets every single thing wrong, and always has, and while he's going about getting everything terribly terribly wrong he looks and sounds as if he is too. Losing ugly. So he MUST be underrated for the same reason the Beatles are overrated. Even if he's rubbish he's underrated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    Only because Captain Holt in Brooklyn Nine Nine reference RoyGBiv in an episode once.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    I did.

    But then I also spotted that you are an Index Sequential Access Method, you old database you.
    Blimey! The wiki explanation of ISAM has given me a headache!
    No clever story behind my name. It was a mispronounciation of 'Sequin' that my older sibling did when he was very young and me and my younger sibling picked up from him. My mum found it very cute, and when she told me the story in my teens I thought it was an interesting word which was unique to our family. Perfect username fodder.
    When my cousin was around 5yrs old he jumped on top of his brother and started thwacking him around the head.

    He has been known as Basher ever since (several decades on).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Just pipped 60,000:


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
    Wasn't Cumbernauld where Gregor's Girl was set/filmed?
    It was indeed and was not so bad in those days, the shopping centre etc did not wear well , there must have been lots of crap architects going about in those days.
    Seem to recall it looked ok in a very modern way. Plenty of green spaces. Must watch that again, been years since I've seen it.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,123
    edited January 2021

    BBC News - TalkRadio: YouTube kicks channel off its platform
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55544205

    I never watch it, but aren't the "controversial" anti-lockdown guests they had on the same faces we have seen on BBC and Sky numerous times?


    Broadcast regulation does not address who appears, but what they say and how it is contextualised.

    There is absolutely no problem having David Icke on TV - the problem is if he is allowed to expound his conspiracy theories with no push back or context.
    This is why GB News is probably hoping for changes in broadcasting regulation that were vaguely briefed to the Press during the Cummings era ; I don't know if these are still in the Government's plans.

    A previous round of broadcasting regulation changes in 1990, largely, but not totally, down to Thatcher's relationship with Murdoch, were very important in dumbing down our public culture.
    It's already more complex than commentators really appreciate, particularly for news, because audience expectations are relevant and "news" isn't that easy to define.

    So you probably can "get away" with things on a religious channel, or RT, or France 24, that wouldn't be okay on the BBC or Sky News on the basis that you expect a religious, Russian, or French angle. But minimum standards still apply, and RT has been nailed for outright lying rather than merely focusing on the Russian perspective on stories.

    Similarly, Good Morning Britain pushes the envelope as a "magazine programme" with things it wouldn't get away with if it was characterised as "news" but it largely stays the right side of the line, albeit with a lot of controversy along the way.

    Fox News was on terrestrial broadcast British TV for a long time but isn't any more, partly because it didn't get the audience and partly because it was really hard to remain within Ofcom rules as it got more "presenter led" whilst still purporting to be a news service.

    GB News can actually probably make it work within current regulatory rules with a fairly provocative, presenter-led format. But they'd inevitably be testing the boundaries. And it'd be easier for them to make a success of it if the Government did legislate for some form of relaxation.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Trump now trying to put Pence in the hotseat.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1346488314157797389

    The fact that Mr. Pence’s role is almost entirely scripted by those parliamentarians is not expected to ease a rare moment of tension between himself and the president, who has come to believe Mr. Pence’s role will be akin to that of chief justice, an arbiter who plays a role in the outcome. In reality, it will be more akin to the presenter opening the Academy Award envelope and reading the name of the movie that won Best Picture, with no say in determining the winner.

    “President Trump’s real understanding of this process is minimal,” said Scott Reed, a Republican strategist.

    NYTimes
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    edited January 2021
    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    Sky's been blue in Ayrshire for most of the last couple of weeks other than one day. Given the only thing we can do now (and indeed have been able to do for a while) is go for a walk, this is most welcome.

    Chilly and vaguely icy in the non-gritted parts but generally about as decent weather as you can expect for this time of year!
    Solarflare , are you in North , south or east
    North. Been a decent spell, other than nearly falling arse over elbow on black ice on a walk on Christmas morning :smiley:
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Just pipped 60,000:


    Tomorrow and Thursday will be awful as Monday and Tuesday are backfilled.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    To be honest Starmer can say what he likes but when the one place that has a Labour administration, Wales, is ignoring him and compromising his message it is just so contradictory

    Even today Drakeford still has the schools going back on the 18th January and before Boris spoke all primary schools were going back tomorrow

    Drakeford. Has there ever been such an underrated politician? I say this not as a supporter of his - I'm not - but as a factual deduction from the posts on here about him. It's as if the bloke gets every single thing wrong, and always has, and while he's going about getting everything terribly terribly wrong he looks and sounds as if he is too. Losing ugly. So he MUST be underrated for the same reason the Beatles are overrated. Even if he's rubbish he's underrated.
    Yes, every day the esteemed Big G regales us, rather obsessively, with Drakeford's misdeeds, which are copious in number and as deep as the ocean. Something must be at the root of this, some tale of Drakeford wronging Big G or his family, to merit such frequent rebukes. There must be a story to tell.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598
    edited January 2021
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
    Wasn't Cumbernauld where Gregor's Girl was set/filmed?
    It was indeed and was not so bad in those days, the shopping centre etc did not wear well , there must have been lots of crap architects going about in those days.
    Aside from Cumbernauld, what I never quite understand driving through the central belt is the preponderance of grey pebbledash.

    Why?? At least paint it a slightly more interesting colour!

    I know there probably aren't many historic brick manufacturers in Scotland due to the geology but surely it doesn't have to look quite so grim.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    On population adjusted cases, I see we are worse than France once again.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    IanB2 said:

    On population adjusted cases, I see we are worse than France once again.

    We test so much more than France that you can't compare figures
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    Well, quite - if your opponent exposes his left flank then that's where you've got to hit him.

    I do sympathize a little with Starmer's predicament, since he's essentially following the right strategy but that means incurring the wrath of his ultras, much as Boris has on lockdown (though he seems to have won them over surprisingly well with his Deal). Did you see how the Squad are now being attacked as sellouts by their own base, for the crime of not burning down the House as soon as they set foot in it?

    Politics and politicians would be the better for having less mercurial supporters. Like me, for example.
    There's 2 opposing views in Labour on Starmer - "Keir is on track to win from the centre" and "Keir is drifting into outdated centrism" - and I hold them both. Just that today, fueled by a great Jones video, the 2nd one is dominating. But tomorrow is another day. Perhaps tomorrow I'll catch a great Rachel Reeves video and it will be all change.

    See, I'm not mercurial.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    malcolmg said:

    Omnium said:

    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Fake news - blue sky in Glasgow - no way! :smiley:
    They had 50 years to wait for it - the relentless rain has meant that these works have been in plan since the 70s.

    I think these photos were taken in 2008 when God popped along to give Brown his halo and dispense aircraft carriers all round.

    There is nothing better than a bright Scottish morning. Nothing more dismal than a Scottish rainy afternoon. Oddly I feel that these two undoubted facts sum up someone or other.. :)
    You >:)
    I may not have been referring to you! What presumption!

    I was though.

    Anyway Mr G, do flash your sunny uplands at us more than exposing your dark glens. (If Malcom turns out to be 17 and female I'll get arrested!)

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    isam said:

    Just occurred to me, while my son and I were throwing coloured toy bricks down the stairs, that @Roy_G_Biv was the colours of the rainbow! Did everyone else clock it straight away?

    Yes. as a child. I was taught to the remember the order of the colours of the rainbow as

    Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain

    (Or Roy G Biv for short).
    Andrew of York Gave Maxwell the Blame
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Just pipped 60,000:


    Tomorrow and Thursday will be awful as Monday and Tuesday are backfilled.
    If the lockdown manages to reduce case numbers then I'm expecting Monday 4th to have the highest case numbers by specimen date - boosted by people delaying a test as happened with the 29th.

    I was relieved that the backdated reporting of deaths didn't take today's number above 1,000.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    Well, quite - if your opponent exposes his left flank then that's where you've got to hit him.

    I do sympathize a little with Starmer's predicament, since he's essentially following the right strategy but that means incurring the wrath of his ultras, much as Boris has on lockdown (though he seems to have won them over surprisingly well with his Deal). Did you see how the Squad are now being attacked as sellouts by their own base, for the crime of not burning down the House as soon as they set foot in it?

    Politics and politicians would be the better for having less mercurial supporters. Like me, for example.
    There's 2 opposing views in Labour on Starmer - "Keir is on track to win from the centre" and "Keir is drifting into outdated centrism" - and I hold them both. Just that today, fueled by a great Jones video, the 2nd one is dominating. But tomorrow is another day. Perhaps tomorrow I'll catch a great Rachel Reeves video and it will be all change.

    See, I'm not mercurial.
    A centrist SeanT ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited January 2021

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is there any other nation more obsessed with class than the British?

    I find it a bit weird, even my Scottish boss said there's plenty of classism in Scotland, although that's more of an Edinburgh/Glasgow rivalry.

    I don't know, nobody would claim that Bearsden was lower class than Wester Hailes. And the Byres Road is every bit as twee as Broughton Street or Newington. It's a geographical thing , like the States - East and West Coast separated by the great plains and arid deserts of West Lothian and Linlithgowshire, inhabited by pink sheep and giant water horses.
    My boss is an Posh Jock as he's from Edinburgh, home of classy places like the Caley, the fringe, and the castle.

    Glasgow has places like Gorbals and Govan.
    You ought to ask him about Craigmillar and Wester Hailes!
    I've just texted him that, his reply 'The worst bits of Edinburgh are better than the best bits of Glasgow.'
    Is there anywhere in either worse than Cumbernauld? Because I wouldn't want to go there.
    Gorbals, before they flattened it a decade or so ago.
    I could bet my last pound you will never have seen or been to the Gorbals, you may be looking at wiki from 1940's, this does not look very shabby does it ................arse

    Well you’d lose your last pound. My grannie, may she rest in peace, was from Rutherglen.
    Wasn't Cumbernauld where Gregor's Girl was set/filmed?
    It was indeed and was not so bad in those days, the shopping centre etc did not wear well , there must have been lots of crap architects going about in those days.
    Aside from Cumbernauld, what I never quite understand driving through the central belt is the preponderance of grey pebbledash.

    Why?? At least paint it a slightly more interesting colour!

    I know there probably aren't many historic brick manufacturers in Scotland due to the geology but surely it doesn't have to look quite so grim.
    Harling is what we call it. Helps to waterproof against the driven rain and to some extent also a sacrificial covering against frost. Or so I see it. For some reason painting is not common unless it is country cottages.

    Edit: Lots of bricks in Central Belt and Tayside - a lot of the local bricks are from fireclay seams (ie Coal Measures seatearths) and others from fluvioglacial or glacial marine clays (Quaternary).

    I wonder also if there is something about the local bricks. it may be that they are not pretty enough, or that tradition was not to leave exposed brickwork anywhere.

    But not just bricks. My grandfather's drapery and house above is Dumfriesshire stone on the front, but cheaper local stone at the sides and back which is harled and always has been.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    MaxPB said:

    Just pipped 60,000:


    Tomorrow and Thursday will be awful as Monday and Tuesday are backfilled.
    Indeed.

    London cases by reporting date currently giving some hope that they might be levelling off, but those hopes could be dashed in the next couple of days.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598
    edited January 2021

    MaxPB said:

    Just pipped 60,000:


    Tomorrow and Thursday will be awful as Monday and Tuesday are backfilled.
    If the lockdown manages to reduce case numbers then I'm expecting Monday 4th to have the highest case numbers by specimen date - boosted by people delaying a test as happened with the 29th.

    I was relieved that the backdated reporting of deaths didn't take today's number above 1,000.
    Will it not be around the 9th-11th that has the highest case numbers (as opposed to the highest implied infection rate)?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Many Voles Enjoy Munching Jam Sandwiches Until Nightfall

    I use this to remember my Neptune from my Uranus
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IMO there are three things that determine current polling.

    1) We are are still in the middle of a crisis, the govt gets the benefit of the doubt and 'rallying round' support. When the crisis ends, the reckoning will begin and questions will be asked about what comes next. Until then politics is suspended.

    2) Labour were a loooooong way back in 2019 and the party is still dealing with the aftermath. There is a lot of ground to recover both internally and externally.

    3) We are three years from a general election, after two recent elections and a chaotic period there is not yet a huge appetite from change.

    I wish you were right. I fear it's more simple than that. I'd say there are two reasons for the current polling

    1. 55% of the country feel sour about Brexit. Labour have now totally capitulated. Is there a single ex Labour voter who will be impressed by Starmer's damascene conversion? The man who fought this scourge for four years now appears to be it's most wholehearted supporter. If it's worth doing now why wasn't it when Mrs May suggested it? We could have avoided Johnson.

    2. An invisible shadow cabinet. A shadow chancellor who has been given the chance of a lifetime is completely out of her depth and invisible. It all feeds in to the idea that Starmer lacks judgement.

    He's got time but he needs advice badly. He could do a lot worse than getting Tony back on board or at least the brighter Milliband.
    I'm agree with some of this, but I think it's Ed Miliband who's in fact marginally the brighter Miliband. He demolished Johnson in the Commons a couple of months ago, in the kind of Commons performance his brother didn't put on. His brother is also very bright for a politician and an excellent organiser and motivator, but Ed is probably the more innovative policymaker.
    I mentioned David because the only Labour figures I can remember making an impression in the last year have been Blair T and Milliband D. I have a lot of time for Ed's backroom abilities but the public aren't aware of them or him. Labour has become a one man band and a pretty unimpressive one of late. I don't think Starmer gets it. He can be wrong but he has to impress.
    For me, Labour must stop pulling punches. The Tories were ruthless in pinning the consequences of the Global Financial Crisis on the presiding Labour government. There is no reason not to return the favour now. The virus is not of this government's making but many aspects of their response have been a disgrace. The latest debacle - schools - yet again showcases the astonishing level of incompetence and lack of consideration. It's an unforgivable carry on. Impossible to defend. Trouble is, they are not really having to. Not from Labour anyway.

    If Labour had called for schools not to reopen, and for the government to plan for this inevitability rather than leave it until they had already gone back for a day, they would be in a position to make hay. But they didn't, so they're not. I hope when the next shambles comes - as it surely will - this mistake is not repeated. Forget "national consensus" and "softly softly" we need a New Labour ready and willing to stick it to these bozos whenever the many chances arise.

    Time to sharpen up the politics with some new and brutal talking points. Covid shambles = TORY shambles. Johnson can't hack it and he doesn't give a tinker's. Thousands of deaths in this country directly attributable to the mishandling of this crisis. The culprits mustn't get away with it. If we tolerate this god knows what will be next. Blood on their hands. Blood on HIS hands. C'mon. It's the truth so let's not be squeamish about saying it.
    Ah, you're missing the Corbynite red meat. Sadly Labour's gone all vegan now, and their tastiest offering is some cold raw tofu, which makes it a bit tricky to compete with 17 stone of solid muscle:
    I am a bit today, yes.

    Amusing video but I've snipped it from my reply because although I instinctively relate to much of the criticism of Starmer from the Left I am acutely conscious of how it gets used for nefarious purposes by those on the pronounced right of politics for whom ANY manifestation of Labour is beyond the pale and unacceptable.

    People like you, I suppose, is who I'm talking about here.
    To be honest Starmer can say what he likes but when the one place that has a Labour administration, Wales, is ignoring him and compromising his message it is just so contradictory

    Even today Drakeford still has the schools going back on the 18th January and before Boris spoke all primary schools were going back tomorrow

    Drakeford. Has there ever been such an underrated politician? I say this not as a supporter of his - I'm not - but as a factual deduction from the posts on here about him. It's as if the bloke gets every single thing wrong, and always has, and while he's going about getting everything terribly terribly wrong he looks and sounds as if he is too. Losing ugly. So he MUST be underrated for the same reason the Beatles are overrated. Even if he's rubbish he's underrated.
    Yes, every day the esteemed Big G regales us, rather obsessively, with Drakeford's misdeeds, which are copious in number and as deep as the ocean. Something must be at the root of this, some tale of Drakeford wronging Big G or his family, to merit such frequent rebukes. There must be a story to tell.
    Bound to come out if so. And tbf it's not just G although G yields to no-one in this field. It's every poster in Wales or vicinity. Mexican Pete said something vaguely in his favour - I think it was on 13th November - but I can't recall anything else.
  • IanB2 said:

    On population adjusted cases, I see we are worse than France once again.

    Wash your mouth out with hand sanitiser.

    We're better than France.
This discussion has been closed.