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Defence review – politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Sorry to disagree but my son gets a hell of a lot more social connection with his friends online via Zoom or Discord during lockdown than he does at school when any social contact outside of the classroom is banned and in the classroom it is strictly controlled for the purposes of teaching.

    Anyone who thinks there is any meaningful social connection going on in school compared to online is not living in the real world.
    I disagree. Kids really aren't that different from us in this respect. Screen contact serves a purpose but it is nothing like meeting in the flesh. Nothing at all. I think this is true for all ages but it is especially true for younger kids. My sister is a primary school teacher and her description of how children were delighted to see and interact with their friends again after the first lockdown was vivid. The youngest also wanted a cuddle from their teacher which rather blew social distancing apart on day 1.
    I don't think my grandson wants a cuddle from his teacher. On the other hand there are one or two female fellow students.......
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Debt free and balanced budget
    So the Scottish government are lying about the state of Scotland's finances?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Sorry to disagree but my son gets a hell of a lot more social connection with his friends online via Zoom or Discord during lockdown than he does at school when any social contact outside of the classroom is banned and in the classroom it is strictly controlled for the purposes of teaching.

    Anyone who thinks there is any meaningful social connection going on in school compared to online is not living in the real world.
    I disagree. Kids really aren't that different from us in this respect. Screen contact serves a purpose but it is nothing like meeting in the flesh. Nothing at all. I think this is true for all ages but it is especially true for younger kids. My sister is a primary school teacher and her description of how children were delighted to see and interact with their friends again after the first lockdown was vivid. The youngest also wanted a cuddle from their teacher which rather blew social distancing apart on day 1.
    Yourself and Mr Tyndall are also comfortably in the top quartile or even decile of incomes, send your kids to the best schools in town and care about their education more than the vast majority of other parents do.

    Your demographic is vastly over-represented on PB. It’s those kids at the other end of the spectrum for whom we need to keep schools open as long as possible.
    Yes, I have said as much downthread. But not this month. This month we stay put and vaccinate as much as possible.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    edited January 2021
    Cicero said:

    Close all schools until half term. Thereafter they will remain open.

    All 2021 exams to be cancelled.

    Use the time until mid-February to jab as many arms as possible. Prioritiy: over 80's, NHS staff (and anyone who has to access NHS premises or work), teachers, anyone over 60 in multi-generational households. Anybody that has wielded a hyperdermic needle to be signed up. 24 hour programme once suppplies are sufficient, based in supermarket car-parks.

    Tier 42 lockdown between now and mid-Februry. Food shopping/meds collection and dog walking about the only permitted reason to leave the house. Anybody breaking lockdown to be subject to a minimum £5,000 fine. Anybody not following strict lockdown after a positive test to be fined £10,000 or to live on a tent on Gruinard Island for six months - their choice. From mid-February, tiers set by county, dependent on ability of the local NHS to cope with cases. No movement between counties until cleared by central government.

    International travel to and from the UK to be made damned near impossible until 1st April; thereafter, gradually released but ONLY to those with vaccination passports.

    Furlough scheme kept under review. Businesses to get meaningful additional support.

    This is how MarqueeMark would battle Covid.



    Any plans about how you pay for the economic demolition you have just proposed?
    The much increased growth in the economy once we are ahead of the Bastard Bug. Anything else is leaving our economy mired in uncertainty for many extra months....
  • Places of worship remain open for communal worship even in (English) tier 4, subject to social distancing and tardis-like interiors. It's not just schools and TV presenters' birthdays.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,895
    Why doesn't the Gov't just push back the school start. There's half terms, easter breaks, summer holidays that can all be eaten into later on in the year.
    It's a unique situation - we've got a rampaging virus with climbing numbers right now and more and more vaccine (Despite the Gov't intending to ignoring Pfizer's advice) coming on stream through the coming days weeks and months.
    Education is very important, & 6 week summer holidays aren't needed this year of all years.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Debt free and balanced budget , it will be a breeze without the anchor of Westminster dragging us under
    When I read such crap it's quite obvious that any UK Government should insist on agreeing the precise terms of any separation with the Scottish Parliament before ever agreeing to allow a referendum to go ahead. A red line should be that Scotland inherits exactly the same share of the UK's debt as its share of the UK's spending under the Barnett Formula. If that's not acceptable to you, you can go whistle.
    You would have to be able to explain the Barnett Formula to do that, and the vast majority of people get it completely wrong.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Who knows where we would be now with Labour's free spending....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Debt free and balanced budget , it will be a breeze without the anchor of Westminster dragging us under
    As dangerous as the anti-vaxxers.

    You might as well wish in one hand and shit in the other. Yes, Scotland MIGHT get to that point, after many years - but not without putting in place economic measures that would make the SNP reviled for their false manifesto that got them there.
    Weren’t you the bloke that was bleating piously about me using the phrase ‘pish on your chips’? Glad you’ve got over that fit of the vapours.
    When I want lessons on pious bleating, I'll travel north of the border.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
  • I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    Just a democrat Divvie, just a democrat.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    I'm in Edinburgh for now, would also vote for the Union, and also agree that it's the Scottish people, voting in elections, who decide when the next Independence referendum happens, and I've said as much on here repeatedly.

    Perhaps you ought to avoid projecting your stereotypes onto other people?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,708
    HYUFD said:
    Not Britain anymore though.

    I'm starting to wonder if Peter 'Abolition of Britain' was right.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Debt free and balanced budget , it will be a breeze without the anchor of Westminster dragging us under
    As dangerous as the anti-vaxxers.

    You might as well wish in one hand and shit in the other. Yes, Scotland MIGHT get to that point, after many years - but not without putting in place economic measures that would make the SNP reviled for their false manifesto that got them there.
    Weren’t you the bloke that was bleating piously about me using the phrase ‘pish on your chips’? Glad you’ve got over that fit of the vapours.
    When I want lessons on pious bleating, I'll travel north of the border.
    There are plenty of sheep available in England if that's your thing.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,708
    Oops. That should be Peter Hitchens.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Debt free and balanced budget , it will be a breeze without the anchor of Westminster dragging us under
    As dangerous as the anti-vaxxers.

    You might as well wish in one hand and shit in the other. Yes, Scotland MIGHT get to that point, after many years - but not without putting in place economic measures that would make the SNP reviled for their false manifesto that got them there.
    Weren’t you the bloke that was bleating piously about me using the phrase ‘pish on your chips’? Glad you’ve got over that fit of the vapours.
    When I want lessons on pious bleating, I'll travel north of the border.
    Och, you’re doing fine on your own. You could even pop up to teach some hypocrisy classes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    edited January 2021

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    The other obvious question is why do the rest of us have to put up with the box ticking nonsense of revalidation? With predictable regularity, colleagues coming up for revalidation retire as they cannot be arsed. Ordinarily some at least would have stayed on longer. Has anyone ever proven that it has raised standards in medicine or nursing?

    A bit like OFSTED, why not abolish the whole self serving edifice?
    Because every now and then patients died because their doctors were still practising 1980s medicine, not having opened a BMJ since registration.
    I did quite a lot of work on Continuing Education quite a few years ago, and quite frankly there were a few frightening statistics. There was an admittedly small, but significant, percentage of medics who never changed what they did in spite of of CE. I strongly suspect that, working for a PCT, I met one or two of them!

    In spite of saying that, part of the reason that I retired from the practice of pharmacy was because I couldn't be bothered with the costs of the requirements for the limited amount of work I wanted to do.
    I have done a fair bit of work for what I call "the secret police" investigating incidents of alleged incompetence, bullying and other dysfunctional behaviour of medical staff. On no occasion was it picked up by the box ticking of revalidation, indeed such evidence was often used by the defence. All incidents arose from either staff or patient whistleblowing.

    Similarly the well recognised scandals of recent years, such as the Shropshire maternity infant deaths. Was it flagged up by the GMC or NMC?

    If revalidation was serving its purpose, then why was it missing all this? It has just become an end in itself. Far more useful from the picking up of bad practice were the periodic College inspections, which are no longer supported.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited January 2021

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    witter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    witter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    witter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Unfortunately, similar arguments in the Brexit referendum failed.

    Only meanies will insist on reality. Which is why we now have a border in the Irish Sea between NI and GB and a system of permits for lorries to enter Kent.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited January 2021
    DavidL said:

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    Just a democrat Divvie, just a democrat.
    Unlike your Brit bredrin?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
  • On-topic, no-one cares about defence cuts which is why successive Conservative governments have been permitted to hollow out the armed services. Only the independent (though not independent of the Pentagon) nuclear deterrent has any symbolic value for any political party. It would have been interesting to see Jeremy Corbyn attack the government over cuts but that moment is past since Rishi has just signed another cheque.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited January 2021

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    I'm in Edinburgh for now, would also vote for the Union, and also agree that it's the Scottish people, voting in elections, who decide when the next Independence referendum happens, and I've said as much on here repeatedly.

    Perhaps you ought to avoid projecting your stereotypes onto other people?
    Perhaps you shouldn’t assume, fascinating as I’m sure you are, that everyone has hung on your every post and knows your personal circumstances.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    On-topic, no-one cares about defence cuts which is why successive Conservative governments have been permitted to hollow out the armed services. Only the independent (though not independent of the Pentagon) nuclear deterrent has any symbolic value for any political party. It would have been interesting to see Jeremy Corbyn attack the government over cuts but that moment is past since Rishi has just signed another cheque.

    Defence spending is about the only spending cut that Corbyn would have agreed with, rather than opposed. Although he would quickly have followed up with a worthy cause, on which the saved money should be spend twice over.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    On the euro you are confusing conditions required to join the euro with conditions required to join the EU. Scotland would have to sign up to join the euro eventually. So what? Ireland uses the euro and has no problems with it. Scotland wouldn't join the euro until it was ready (that is the whole purpose of the convergence criteria).
    On Schengen, I think the EU would grant Scotland an exemption, at least initially. Ireland is exempt and Scotland's only land border is with a non-Schengen, non-EU country.
    In any case, none of this has anything to do with the Copenhagen criteria. Scotland is more than ready for EU membership and would prosper mightily as a member. This is what English Nationalists are so afraid of.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    I think we would have been in a much better place if the referendum to Leave had been called by a PM who wanted to Leave.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    I'm in Edinburgh for now, would also vote for the Union, and also agree that it's the Scottish people, voting in elections, who decide when the next Independence referendum happens, and I've said as much on here repeatedly.

    Perhaps you ought to avoid projecting your stereotypes onto other people?
    Perhaps you shouldn’t assume, fascinating as I’m sure you are, that everyone has hung on your every post and knows your personal circumstances.
    You're the one making sweeping generalisations about the opinions of people who post to this site. In almost compete ignorance as it turns out.
  • On-topic, no-one cares about defence cuts which is why successive Conservative governments have been permitted to hollow out the armed services. Only the independent (though not independent of the Pentagon) nuclear deterrent has any symbolic value for any political party. It would have been interesting to see Jeremy Corbyn attack the government over cuts but that moment is past since Rishi has just signed another cheque.

    It is one of those strange ones that Labour want to be allowed to cut defence spending, but can't electorally and the Tories want to increase, but in the end realise its a waste, so gradually cut it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
  • isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    Farage's Ukip never came within a gnat's whisker of winning a single Westminster seat, let alone forming a government. Ironically, Ukip's strength was European elections. (Sceptics might accuse the Conservatives of breaking electoral rules to keep Farage out but even so, there is only one of him.)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    edited January 2021

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    I think we would have been in a much better place if the referendum to Leave had been called by a PM who wanted to Leave.
    The EU might just have offered a deal that ameliorated the worst effects of EU membership (from a Leave perspective) - such that we never left.

    Much as if Cameron had said after his wanky tinkering had delivered bugger all, that the EU weren't serious so he would now fully support Leave - given with such gusto that the EU actually believed him.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    I think we would have been in a much better place if the referendum to Leave had been called by a PM who wanted to Leave.
    Maybe the best way of Leaving would have been to elect a government that had leaving, without a referendum, in their manifesto
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    Farage's Ukip never came within a gnat's whisker of winning a single Westminster seat, let alone forming a government. Ironically, Ukip's strength was European elections. (Sceptics might accuse the Conservatives of breaking electoral rules to keep Farage out but even so, there is only one of him.)
    To be fair, Douglas Carswell did win his by-election standing for UKIP.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2021

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    Farage's Ukip never came within a gnat's whisker of winning a single Westminster seat, let alone forming a government. Ironically, Ukip's strength was European elections. (Sceptics might accuse the Conservatives of breaking electoral rules to keep Farage out but even so, there is only one of him.)
    Well they did win two seats, and came within a thousand votes of winning in two others, so not strictly true to say what you did there. But, that aside, dont you think they would have grown more after the 2015 GE had a party not offering a referendum been elected? They were pretty high in the polls around the time of the referendum when they were the only Leave option
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    Farage's Ukip never came within a gnat's whisker of winning a single Westminster seat, let alone forming a government. Ironically, Ukip's strength was European elections. (Sceptics might accuse the Conservatives of breaking electoral rules to keep Farage out but even so, there is only one of him.)
    Actually, Carslkae won re-election. To Farage's enduring chagrin.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    Places of worship remain open for communal worship even in (English) tier 4, subject to social distancing and tardis-like interiors. It's not just schools and TV presenters' birthdays.

    They jolly well shouldn't be.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    Farage's Ukip never came within a gnat's whisker of winning a single Westminster seat, let alone forming a government. Ironically, Ukip's strength was European elections. (Sceptics might accuse the Conservatives of breaking electoral rules to keep Farage out but even so, there is only one of him.)
    UKIP were never in any danger of forming a government, but were in danger of preventing the Tories from forming one. The whole Brexit debacle has resulted from the Tories putting their party interest ahead of the national interest. Always worth bearing in mind when they start bleating about their patriotism.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    On the euro you are confusing conditions required to join the euro with conditions required to join the EU. Scotland would have to sign up to join the euro eventually. So what? Ireland uses the euro and has no problems with it. Scotland wouldn't join the euro until it was ready (that is the whole purpose of the convergence criteria).
    On Schengen, I think the EU would grant Scotland an exemption, at least initially. Ireland is exempt and Scotland's only land border is with a non-Schengen, non-EU country.
    In any case, none of this has anything to do with the Copenhagen criteria. Scotland is more than ready for EU membership and would prosper mightily as a member. This is what English Nationalists are so afraid of.
    Scotland would Leave the UK single market, (its biggest export market, by orders of magnitude) travel area and currency and fiscal union - thats what Nationalists are so afraid of addressing. If they weren't why wouldn't they have a currency plan and a plan to meet the Copenhagen criteria?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    edited January 2021
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Great header DA - how Pike ever got MoD.......

    OT:

    It's an interesting thread but he completely misses the emotional aspect of The Project. Mitterand insisted, for sentimental reasons, that Greece should be admitted to the EC despite not meeting the criteria for accession. It was felt that the very notion of Europe was incomplete without its cultural Hellenic bedrock.

    I can't claim to be an expert EU kremlinologist but more than 10 of my old students work in the commission now so I do have some insight. They all think that Scotland will have 'sa propre place' in the Union as Ayrault said and a way will be found to make it happen.
    You will scare the pants off Carlotta telling the truth like that, as an emigrant who joined the colonial establishment ( could not make it in Scotland as not enough Tory chancers) , her democratic view is the pesky Scots should be kept in captivity.
    My democratic view is that the results of referendums should be respected.

    Your view appears to be “keep asking until I get the result I want”.

    2 million Scots voted to remain in the U.K.
    1.6 million Scots voted to remain in the EU.
    Nobody is saying “keep asking until I get the result I want”, you can make up as many lies as you want. The people in each election since 2014 have voted in a government that had their main aim as independence. That is called democracy , alien to Tories like you. You would not know democracy if it ran over your face.
    Morning Malcolm, good to see that you remain PBs resident ray of sunshine. However, there really is a material difference between an election where the result may be changed at any following election and a referendum which generally decides a fundamental principle, usually constitutional. The SNP can legitimately argue that a strong victory for them at the next Scottish Parliament permits them to launch a campaign for Indyref2, but the election and the referendum are two separate things. After all the SNP themselves accepted that the first referendum should be a once an generation thing, so they have to argue exceptional material changes since 2014 as the only reason that the question should again be put to the Scottish people.
    For my part, it is clear that Scotland, as opposed to the SNP, is still very much in two minds about separation. The argument about a second vote and still less the choice for independence is still not yet decided. So despite the rage that many Nats express, this is certainly not the mainstream in my part of Scotland and the SNP are not yet guaranteed either their victory or their vote. Plenty of Scots want stability right now and the upheaval of separation and all that would follow is a risk too many for a lot of folk. So we will continue to put forward our views, believing in Home Rule short of separation but knowing that if the Scottish people decide differently then we will in all humility accept that. However my feeling is that the SNP would not accept even a second defeat, insisting at some external factor biased the vote and asking for on more heave... Of course since the very basis of the SNP is separation we can expect nothing else, but it could be that you are beaten next time and the model is not Slovakia but Quebec.
    The problem for those of us who still support a common state is that the English seem to have lost confidence in the Union themselves and no think the voice of the SNP is the voice of Scotland. Also, whereas Pierre Trudeau could fight for a United Canada, Johnson represents all we dislike about a United Kingdom. Even still, I believe that we would stay together if all the nations have confidence in a common destiny. The fact that there is such a crisis of confidence is the opportunity for the SNP, so we will see.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    On the euro you are confusing conditions required to join the euro with conditions required to join the EU. Scotland would have to sign up to join the euro eventually. So what? Ireland uses the euro and has no problems with it. Scotland wouldn't join the euro until it was ready (that is the whole purpose of the convergence criteria).
    On Schengen, I think the EU would grant Scotland an exemption, at least initially. Ireland is exempt and Scotland's only land border is with a non-Schengen, non-EU country.
    In any case, none of this has anything to do with the Copenhagen criteria. Scotland is more than ready for EU membership and would prosper mightily as a member. This is what English Nationalists are so afraid of.
    Scotland would Leave the UK single market, (its biggest export market, by orders of magnitude) travel area and currency and fiscal union - thats what Nationalists are so afraid of addressing. If they weren't why wouldn't they have a currency plan and a plan to meet the Copenhagen criteria?
    Scotland already meets the Copenhagen criteria.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    I think we would have been in a much better place if the referendum to Leave had been called by a PM who wanted to Leave.

    History has shown that every politician who wanted to leave is a fucking idiot, so no...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Which Criteria would an independent Scotland fail to meet? Rule of Law? Market Economy?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    I'm very happy that Boris Johnson with his 80 seat majority is not buffeted on the winds the way that May was, by the Remainiacs in her midst. Strong and stable, Boris, strong and stable....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
  • malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership.

    The EU constitution requires membership of either Schengen or the Common Travel Area. The UK leaving doesn't end that. Scotland could opt to join (remain in) the Common Travel Area.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Who knows where we would be now with Labour's free spending....
    And THEN having to pay for the costs of Covid on top. *shudder*.....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    I'm very happy that Boris Johnson with his 80 seat majority is not buffeted on the winds the way that May was

    LOL

    That's a belter
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
    The NUS are utterly spineless at issues that actually affect students. Most students only join because of the of the societies and the cheap bars.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not compulsory for membership, and there are Schengen countries outside the EU.

    The alternative is the CTA (like RoI) and of course there is no more reason for lorry queues at Gretna Green than Dover. Either both move freely, or neither does. England could only make it difficult by making it difficult itself.

    Like Ireland, I think the Euro should be the destination for Scotland in terms of currency, though that could be a fair time off. There is no timeschedule attached to joining.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    The other obvious question is why do the rest of us have to put up with the box ticking nonsense of revalidation? With predictable regularity, colleagues coming up for revalidation retire as they cannot be arsed. Ordinarily some at least would have stayed on longer. Has anyone ever proven that it has raised standards in medicine or nursing?

    A bit like OFSTED, why not abolish the whole self serving edifice?
    Because every now and then patients died because their doctors were still practising 1980s medicine, not having opened a BMJ since registration.
    I did quite a lot of work on Continuing Education quite a few years ago, and quite frankly there were a few frightening statistics. There was an admittedly small, but significant, percentage of medics who never changed what they did in spite of of CE. I strongly suspect that, working for a PCT, I met one or two of them!

    In spite of saying that, part of the reason that I retired from the practice of pharmacy was because I couldn't be bothered with the costs of the requirements for the limited amount of work I wanted to do.
    I have done a fair bit of work for what I call "the secret police" investigating incidents of alleged incompetence, bullying and other dysfunctional behaviour of medical staff. On no occasion was it picked up by the box ticking of revalidation, indeed such evidence was often used by the defence. All incidents arose from either staff or patient whistleblowing.

    Similarly the well recognised scandals of recent years, such as the Shropshire maternity infant deaths. Was it flagged up by the GMC or NMC?

    If revalidation was serving its purpose, then why was it missing all this? It has just become an end in itself. Far more useful from the picking up of bad practice were the periodic College inspections, which are no longer supported.
    CE and revalidation isn't supposed to pick up this sort of thing; it's supposed to head them off, and yes, in a similar position to yourself, I've seen CE attendance used as a defence.

    I agree that peer review is far better than box-ticking. Trouble was that it wasn't seen as working; not quite sure why, TBH, apart from a suspicion that the friends of the reviewers 'got away with it'.
  • isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    I think we would have been in a much better place if the referendum to Leave had been called by a PM who wanted to Leave.
    The EU might just have offered a deal that ameliorated the worst effects of EU membership (from a Leave perspective) - such that we never left.

    Much as if Cameron had said after his wanky tinkering had delivered bugger all, that the EU weren't serious so he would now fully support Leave - given with such gusto that the EU actually believed him.
    Lack of brinkmanship was not the reason Cameron's negotiation failed. It is that he did not ask for anything in particular, veering between railing against the ECJ and asking for just any old concession in general that he could sell back home. If Cameron had asked for specific measures, it is just possible he might have got somewhere. Or he might have done if he'd not started by offending the leaders of France and Germany, or even understood how the EU works. One of the troubles with Cameron is he believed the Eurosceptic propaganda that Angela Merkel runs the whole show.
  • Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
    The NUS are utterly spineless at issues that actually affect students. Most students only join because of the of the societies and the cheap bars.
    I went to the NUS Conference in 2003.

    The Conference spent more time debating the Iraq War (which had began a few weeks earlier and had nothing to do with students) than it did tuition fees. 🤦🏻‍♂️

    All anyone at Conference seemed to want to discuss primarily was Palestine and Iraq.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership.

    The EU constitution requires membership of either Schengen or the Common Travel Area. The UK leaving doesn't end that. Scotland could opt to join (remain in) the Common Travel Area.
    Also 'Sweden' for the bollox Euro adoption argument as well.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership.

    The EU constitution requires membership of either Schengen or the Common Travel Area. The UK leaving doesn't end that. Scotland could opt to join (remain in) the Common Travel Area.
    Not if rUK decided to end it.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
    I did here that there are growing rent strike campaigns.

    The NUS have forgotten the value of transitional demands. They've asked for money in a vague sense, but refuse to say how much.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Great header DA - how Pike ever got MoD.......

    OT:

    It's an interesting thread but he completely misses the emotional aspect of The Project. Mitterand insisted, for sentimental reasons, that Greece should be admitted to the EC despite not meeting the criteria for accession. It was felt that the very notion of Europe was incomplete without its cultural Hellenic bedrock.

    I can't claim to be an expert EU kremlinologist but more than 10 of my old students work in the commission now so I do have some insight. They all think that Scotland will have 'sa propre place' in the Union as Ayrault said and a way will be found to make it happen.
    You will scare the pants off Carlotta telling the truth like that, as an emigrant who joined the colonial establishment ( could not make it in Scotland as not enough Tory chancers) , her democratic view is the pesky Scots should be kept in captivity.
    My democratic view is that the results of referendums should be respected.

    Your view appears to be “keep asking until I get the result I want”.

    2 million Scots voted to remain in the U.K.
    1.6 million Scots voted to remain in the EU.
    Nobody is saying “keep asking until I get the result I want”, you can make up as many lies as you want. The people in each election since 2014 have voted in a government that had their main aim as independence. That is called democracy , alien to Tories like you. You would not know democracy if it ran over your face.
    Morning Malcy.. democracy is what you want it to be innit.. if the voting was to stay you would be saying its a fix...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Which Criteria would an independent Scotland fail to meet? Rule of Law? Market Economy?

    3% budget deficit might take a bit of work.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
    The NUS are utterly spineless at issues that actually affect students. Most students only join because of the of the societies and the cheap bars.
    I went to the NUS Conference in 2003.

    The Conference spent more time debating the Iraq War (which had began a few weeks earlier and had nothing to do with students) than it did tuition fees. 🤦🏻‍♂️

    All anyone at Conference seemed to want to discuss primarily was Palestine and Iraq.
    I also went to that conference and Shimon Peres was there speaking to Jewish students and I managed to ask him a question
  • malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership.

    The EU constitution requires membership of either Schengen or the Common Travel Area. The UK leaving doesn't end that. Scotland could opt to join (remain in) the Common Travel Area.
    Not if rUK decided to end it.

    Nor if the UK decides to nuke Madrid.

    Lets talk real world please Carlotta.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    I think we would have been in a much better place if the referendum to Leave had been called by a PM who wanted to Leave.
    The EU might just have offered a deal that ameliorated the worst effects of EU membership (from a Leave perspective) - such that we never left.

    Much as if Cameron had said after his wanky tinkering had delivered bugger all, that the EU weren't serious so he would now fully support Leave - given with such gusto that the EU actually believed him.
    What do you think it would have taken for Johnson and Gove to back Cameron's deal, nevermind the other longstanding Europhobes? You're ignoring their personal political interests and motivations.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited January 2021

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    Boris is the UK PM and has confirmed on Marr today 2014 was a once in a generation vote only, what DavidL says is all very interesting but only Boris' opinion is relevant on any legal indyref2 as without Boris' approval as UK PM it would be illegal
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
    The NUS are utterly spineless at issues that actually affect students. Most students only join because of the of the societies and the cheap bars.
    I went to the NUS Conference in 2003.

    The Conference spent more time debating the Iraq War (which had began a few weeks earlier and had nothing to do with students) than it did tuition fees. 🤦🏻‍♂️

    All anyone at Conference seemed to want to discuss primarily was Palestine and Iraq.
    I also went to that conference and Shimon Peres was there speaking to Jewish students and I managed to ask him a question
    Small world, we could have bumped into each other at the time without realising.

    Peres speaking was an absolute highlight. I swear there seemed more security on the day he spoke than going into Tory Conference with the PM speaking.
  • What a difference a month makes.

    For anyone inclined to lambast the Government for u-turns, vacillation, inconsistency, etc etc ad tedium, here is the carefully-crafted, totally scientific, statistical advice they received from much-vaunted experts a mere four weeks ago:

    "Virus levels falling across most of England, says ONS"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55186417
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited January 2021
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership.

    The EU constitution requires membership of either Schengen or the Common Travel Area. The UK leaving doesn't end that. Scotland could opt to join (remain in) the Common Travel Area.
    Also 'Sweden' for the bollox Euro adoption argument as well.
    Applying for the EU doesn't require you to join Schengen and the Euro immediately, but does require you to commit to join as soon as possible. If other EU member states saw Scotland say "we'll sign up, but we won't actually do it" to their own public as part of the accession process would you expect the rest of the EU to just roll over and accept this? It doesn't really set a good example of a new sovereign state keeping to it's word.

    Circumstances changed after accession for most of the countries who have joined in recent years and don't use the Euro or Schengen, but there was never a refusal at accession stage. In addition, Scotland needs it's own currency to be able to commit to joining the Euro as it needs to join ERM II, so there'll be another issue there.
  • kjh said:

    Places of worship remain open for communal worship even in (English) tier 4, subject to social distancing and tardis-like interiors. It's not just schools and TV presenters' birthdays.

    They jolly well shouldn't be.
    One suspects church and mosque-going ministers want to keep them open, and atheist ministers neither care nor even realise these places are still open.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
    I did here that there are growing rent strike campaigns.

    The NUS have forgotten the value of transitional demands. They've asked for money in a vague sense, but refuse to say how much.
    Agreed.

    Looking at their website, there are a whole list of vague demands (e.g., a fair treatment for students, effective strategy for recovery). I don't disagree with them, but they are loosely formulated aspirations, really.

    https://tinyurl.com/yckfkt7t

    Students should be demanding a 50 per cent tuition fee rebate for the year lost.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    Scott_xP said:

    I'm very happy that Boris Johnson with his 80 seat majority is not buffeted on the winds the way that May was

    LOL

    That's a belter
    Laughing at you laughing at Boris' 80 seat majority.

    Oh, how that must butt hurt you....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2021
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership.

    The EU constitution requires membership of either Schengen or the Common Travel Area. The UK leaving doesn't end that. Scotland could opt to join (remain in) the Common Travel Area.
    Also 'Sweden' for the bollox Euro adoption argument as well.
    Technically the rules have been tightened since Sweden got themselves an unofficial opt out. Though still the Scots could opt out.

    But I still think the SNP should advocate Euro membership and seek to win the argument on that. It is the best honest answer to the currency question, the idea of a "Sterling union" is nonsense, if you want that then stay within the United Kingdom.

    The only honest independent Scotland currency options is an actual Scottish currency (not printing Scottish sterling notes) and the Euro.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris confirms referendums should only be once in a generation on Marr, comparing the period from the 1975 EEC referendum to the 2016 EU referendum to the period before a new Scottish referendum should be allowed by Westminster after 2014

    No parliament can bind its successor.
    Better keep electing Tory Governments then, just to ensure continuity.....
    Whether or not the last three Tory governments have delivered continuity will be left as an exercise for the reader.
    The glorious continuity of keeping Labour from the levers of power.
    Yes the coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband would have been an unimaginable hell compared to the strong and stable government we have enjoyed in recent years.
    Always become a better player when you're out of a losing side!

    I wonder how it would have played out. There would have been no referendum in 2016 under Miliband, but Farage's UKIP would have probably become the second party, or one of three trading about equal in the polls I guess, esp with more Tory defectors. It may have resulted in a party who wanted to Leave in charge calling a referendum (which would have been cancelled due to Covid) in 2020/21
    Farage's Ukip never came within a gnat's whisker of winning a single Westminster seat, let alone forming a government. Ironically, Ukip's strength was European elections. (Sceptics might accuse the Conservatives of breaking electoral rules to keep Farage out but even so, there is only one of him.)
    Well they did win two seats, and came within a thousand votes of winning in two others, so not strictly true to say what you did there. But, that aside, dont you think they would have grown more after the 2015 GE had a party not offering a referendum been elected? They were pretty high in the polls around the time of the referendum when they were the only Leave option
    No. I think Brexit pressure on Cameron came from within the Conservative Party not Farage, and Cameron himself tended to Euroscepticism to start with.
  • I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    I'm in Edinburgh for now, would also vote for the Union, and also agree that it's the Scottish people, voting in elections, who decide when the next Independence referendum happens, and I've said as much on here repeatedly.

    Perhaps you ought to avoid projecting your stereotypes onto other people?
    Perhaps you shouldn’t assume, fascinating as I’m sure you are, that everyone has hung on your every post and knows your personal circumstances.
    You're the one making sweeping generalisations about the opinions of people who post to this site. In almost compete ignorance as it turns out.
    Chill, man.
    Anyhoo, your generous sharing with me of your bio doesn't really obviate my actual point, that on here the further one is from Scotland (and a vote in Scotland) the keener one is to prevent a vote on Scotland.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279

    kjh said:

    Places of worship remain open for communal worship even in (English) tier 4, subject to social distancing and tardis-like interiors. It's not just schools and TV presenters' birthdays.

    They jolly well shouldn't be.
    One suspects church and mosque-going ministers want to keep them open, and atheist ministers neither care nor even realise these places are still open.
    My church in Epping was all online as of this morning
  • What a difference a month makes.

    For anyone inclined to lambast the Government for u-turns, vacillation, inconsistency, etc etc ad tedium, here is the carefully-crafted, totally scientific, statistical advice they received from much-vaunted experts a mere four weeks ago:

    "Virus levels falling across most of England, says ONS"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55186417

    Wow surprisingly positive news post Cockney Covid.

    But it could be precisely because schools are closed due to the Christmas holidays.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Oh great, it's not brexit it's Scottish independence.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited January 2021
    HYUFD said:

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    Boris is the UK PM and has confirmed on Marr today 2014 was a once in a generation vote only, what DavidL says is all very interesting but only Boris' opinion is relevant on any legal indyref2 as without Boris' approval as UK PM it would be illegal
    'Shut up Unionist Scots, your opinion is irrelevant.'

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    Laughing at you laughing at Boris' 80 seat majority.

    And still he sways in the breeze. How many votes has he pulled now?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.

    I agree and the positive reasons for remaining in the union will become apparent when indyref2 happens
    Don't forget that the positive reasons are actual things the Union will bring to Scotland, not "this is better than if you leave which will be really shit".

    I really struggle for what those positives are right now. The UK is a disfunctional mess.
    Compare COVID vaccination rate with the EU. Could SINDY have afforded the furlough scheme etc? (Not that ScotGov has spent all the money on Scottish businesss).
    You really are a nasty piece of work. We would of course have just borrowed money for it , just like the UK did. How can unionists be so dumb to assume other people don't understand that.
    Is that before or after you’ve met the Copenhagen criteria to join the EU?
    Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership, other than being an independent country. The convergence criteria are for the final stage of EMU and need not be met to become an EU member state.
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344909819396804608?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344911429564973056?s=20
    https://twitter.com/ZachElsbury/status/1344906584950935558?s=20
    Schengen is not a requirement of EU membership.

    The EU constitution requires membership of either Schengen or the Common Travel Area. The UK leaving doesn't end that. Scotland could opt to join (remain in) the Common Travel Area.
    Not if rUK decided to end it.

    Nor if the UK decides to nuke Madrid.

    Lets talk real world please Carlotta.
    The SNP cannot promise things not within their gift. If they want to leave the UK single market, why should they expect the CTA to continue too?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    Boris has still signed up to a Roman Catholic plot according to some Brexiteer hardliners

    https://twitter.com/SBJJS1966/status/1345327476499767297?s=20
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    What a difference a month makes.

    For anyone inclined to lambast the Government for u-turns, vacillation, inconsistency, etc etc ad tedium, here is the carefully-crafted, totally scientific, statistical advice they received from much-vaunted experts a mere four weeks ago:

    "Virus levels falling across most of England, says ONS"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55186417

    Wow surprisingly positive news post Cockney Covid.

    But it could be precisely because schools are closed due to the Christmas holidays.
    Dated 4 December.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    MaxPB said:

    Oh great, it's not brexit it's Scottish independence.

    Is that a comment on the outcome of the 2016 vote?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    Can we have Blair back please
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Excellent header. I will leave it at that since I can't add value. To say that military hardware is not one of my Hot Topics is kind.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    What a difference a month makes.

    For anyone inclined to lambast the Government for u-turns, vacillation, inconsistency, etc etc ad tedium, here is the carefully-crafted, totally scientific, statistical advice they received from much-vaunted experts a mere four weeks ago:

    "Virus levels falling across most of England, says ONS"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55186417

    Wow surprisingly positive news post Cockney Covid.

    But it could be precisely because schools are closed due to the Christmas holidays.
    Dated 4 December.
    Oh nevermind.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    kjh said:

    Places of worship remain open for communal worship even in (English) tier 4, subject to social distancing and tardis-like interiors. It's not just schools and TV presenters' birthdays.

    They jolly well shouldn't be.
    One suspects church and mosque-going ministers want to keep them open, and atheist ministers neither care nor even realise these places are still open.
    I also suspect you are right but everyone of those ministers (whether ones that attend or ones that don't) are wrong. It does not set a good example and is not necessary. I'm sure priests (or whatever they are called in the various faiths) can administer to their flocks without them all mixing in the same building.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    In other news, I have 6 exams commencing in 1 week. 💩 Send thoughts and prayers please.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    In other news, I have 6 exams commencing in 1 week. 💩 Send thoughts and prayers please.

    Good luck Gallowgate. I'm sure you will cruise it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1345695276124807168

    Nippy will announce school closures, Starmer will commend it and then BoZo will announce it too late again
  • Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe

    This subject is divisive across the country

    However, it is vital that schools remain open as the damage to the children with closures will be do dreadful damage to their life chances

    Schools should only close as a last resort
    In two months things will be a lot better because of lockdown and vaccine. In three months the pressure on the NHS will have largely gone.

    This is a last resort and if schools are closed for say a month it really wont make much difference to life chances. It is not an open ended closure like last time.
    Have you any idea just how much damage this has already caused my granddaughter as she takes her A levels to secure her place in University in September. She is exceptionally talented but is receiving counselling for the stress she is undergoing with school closures and the lack of social connection with her friends
    Big G, I fully understand your plight, but we are in the midst of a dangerous pandemic. Both my sons are/were in the final year of University degrees. The one in Wales has now suspended studies for a year, the one in England is soldiering on to the bitter end.

    Neither have seen a lecturer since March. My eldest son who is on the autistic spectrum was in a Halls of Residence flat on his own for a fortnight whilst his overseas student flatmates were quarantining before arrival- not another soul for a fortnight. Perhaps we need to show a little of the wartime spirit that Boris Johnson enthuses over.
    I am surprised that there the NUS are not pushing strongly for at least partial rebate of tuition fees for this year.

    It seems reasonable to me.
    The NUS are utterly spineless at issues that actually affect students. Most students only join because of the of the societies and the cheap bars.
    I went to the NUS Conference in 2003.

    The Conference spent more time debating the Iraq War (which had began a few weeks earlier and had nothing to do with students) than it did tuition fees. 🤦🏻‍♂️

    All anyone at Conference seemed to want to discuss primarily was Palestine and Iraq.
    I went to several conferences in the mid-1970s, the age of Charles Clarke, Sue Slipman et al. I wore a Federation of Conservative Students t-shirt which was brave. My fellow delegate from Hull College of Higher Education was, however, elected as delegate on a National Front ticket. Watching him walk into a conference hall that was expecting him, dressed in all black, was one of the bravest things I have witnessed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    HYUFD said:

    I think the PB Yoons need a quiet word with DavidL. He seems to be the only one of their number currently with an actual vote in Scotland, and he thinks it’s the right of folk in Scotland to have another Indy ref if they should so wish it. Letting the side down, old fruit!

    Boris is the UK PM and has confirmed on Marr today 2014 was a once in a generation vote only, what DavidL says is all very interesting but only Boris' opinion is relevant on any legal indyref2 as without Boris' approval as UK PM it would be illegal
    It was also a Conservative Manifesto pledge to stop a Sturgeon second referendum. Not sure how Scottish local elections are supposed to top-trump Boris's 80 seat majority achieved partly on the back of saying "no second referendum".
This discussion has been closed.