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Defence review – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited January 2021 in General
Defence review – politicalbetting.com

Cheaper Turkish made drones won the Nagorno-Karabakh war. Now Britain's military wants them. Remote controlled weaponry going mainstream —>https://t.co/aUoGIh6Iwv

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2021
    1st. I can't make any useful contribution to the defence article. I hate fighting in all its forms and wish we didn't have to spend a penny on defence. I would do away with all our nuclear weapons.

    I'd also bring back to the UK every single member of the armed forces for the next 6 months to adminster the vaccination programme.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2021
    I'm going to make a concise couple of predictions.

    Boris Johnson will NOT step down before the next election.

    He will win a handsome majority of more than 40 seats. Most people who voted Conservative last time will do so again.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited January 2021
    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    Sandpit said:

    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.

    I actually think this government has done a relatively decent job on defence compared to some of its predecessors. Ben "Swain" Wallace is definitely an upgrade over The Fireplace Salesman or S/Lt (Acting) Mordaunt.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,262
    Being able to spend tons of money and still lose it in the roundings of the current crisis appears to have been helpful.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.

    I actually think this government has done a relatively decent job on defence compared to some of its predecessors. Ben "Swain" Wallace is definitely an upgrade over The Fireplace Salesman or S/Lt (Acting) Mordaunt.
    What, in your mind, are the issues that perpetually seem to affect procurement? Is it scope creep, vendors underpricing themselves, trying to reinvent the wheel, poor contract management, or all of the above plus some more?

    I’m astonished by what’s happened with private space flight in the last decade, with the likes of SpaceX and Blue Origin seemingly doing more than what NASA have been doing in the public sector with the usual contractors - but for half an order of magnitude cheaper.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    edited January 2021
    @Dura_Ace

    Brilliant! Despite the topic haven’t laughed so much in ages.

    But in respect of your last line, surely ‘last war but one’ would be some progress? Normally it’s the last war but six.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    Sandpit said:


    What, in your mind, are the issues that perpetually seem to affect procurement? Is it scope creep, vendors underpricing themselves, trying to reinvent the wheel, poor contract management, or all of the above plus some more?

    Pretty much. If the answer were simple or easy somebody would have sorted it out by now.

    Modern defence systems are incredibly expensive to acquire and require a great deal of specialist, technical expertise to operate. That means for just about all nations that multinational collaboration is the only way to acquire complex capabilities.

    The eurocent is starting to drop with the MoD. The MQ-9C UAS fleet is going to be jointly operated with the Belgian Air Component.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.

    I actually think this government has done a relatively decent job on defence compared to some of its predecessors. Ben "Swain" Wallace is definitely an upgrade over The Fireplace Salesman or S/Lt (Acting) Mordaunt.
    What, in your mind, are the issues that perpetually seem to affect procurement? Is it scope creep, vendors underpricing themselves, trying to reinvent the wheel, poor contract management, or all of the above plus some more?

    I’m astonished by what’s happened with private space flight in the last decade, with the likes of SpaceX and Blue Origin seemingly doing more than what NASA have been doing in the public sector with the usual contractors - but for half an order of magnitude cheaper.
    Sandpit try Rethinking Humanity by James Arbib and Tony Seba. Only 89 pages and free to download somewhere on the net. A great explanation of disruption, which is what I expect the space industry is experiencing.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.

    I actually think this government has done a relatively decent job on defence compared to some of its predecessors. Ben "Swain" Wallace is definitely an upgrade over The Fireplace Salesman or S/Lt (Acting) Mordaunt.
    What, in your mind, are the issues that perpetually seem to affect procurement? Is it scope creep, vendors underpricing themselves, trying to reinvent the wheel, poor contract management, or all of the above plus some more?

    I’m astonished by what’s happened with private space flight in the last decade, with the likes of SpaceX and Blue Origin seemingly doing more than what NASA have been doing in the public sector with the usual contractors - but for half an order of magnitude cheaper.
    Sandpit try Rethinking Humanity by James Arbib and Tony Seba. Only 89 pages and free to download somewhere on the net. A great explanation of disruption, which is what I expect the space industry is experiencing.
    Someehere on the net may be RethinkX, but my memory may deceive.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:


    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    People who fail as teachers become inspectors
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.

    I actually think this government has done a relatively decent job on defence compared to some of its predecessors. Ben "Swain" Wallace is definitely an upgrade over The Fireplace Salesman or S/Lt (Acting) Mordaunt.
    What, in your mind, are the issues that perpetually seem to affect procurement? Is it scope creep, vendors underpricing themselves, trying to reinvent the wheel, poor contract management, or all of the above plus some more?

    I’m astonished by what’s happened with private space flight in the last decade, with the likes of SpaceX and Blue Origin seemingly doing more than what NASA have been doing in the public sector with the usual contractors - but for half an order of magnitude cheaper.
    Sandpit try Rethinking Humanity by James Arbib and Tony Seba. Only 89 pages and free to download somewhere on the net. A great explanation of disruption, which is what I expect the space industry is experiencing.
    On the author’s website https://tonyseba.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/RethinkXHumanityReport.pdf
    Thanks for the recommendation, will take a look later today.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2021
    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,684

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:
    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    People who fail as teachers become inspectors
    And if they fail as inspectors, you make them ministers in the Education Department.....

    So it goes on.....
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2021
    Haha was just chuckling to myself at that wonderful moment in HP when Dolores Umbridge declares,

    'I really hate children'

    Every one of us who has been involved in education knows of some teachers, inspectors and educationalists of whom that could be said.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2021
    Talking of arms, here's an excellent piece on all the arms equipment "Global Britain" is flogging to Erdogan, and the zero scrutiny for the Erdogan deal that Brexiters have held up as an example of Truss's success. Very, very short-sighted, because Erdogan's government is now a major cause of instability in the Eastern Mediterranean.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/03/global-britain-is-willing-to-trade-away-everything-including-scruples

    "For example, a large chunk of Turkey-UK trade in previous years has comprised military sales to Ankara. According to Campaign Against the Arms Trade, Britain has exported £1.3bn worth of arms to Turkey since the 2013 Gezi Park popular uprising."
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
    Well, that would definitely clarify the issue given every time she has been cross examined she has come apart faster than tissue paper in water. But I wish they would, because to watch her being cross-examined by teachers would be even funnier than watching Perdue getting it from Ossoff.

    By the way, she isn’t a politician, she’s a civil servant.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183

    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.

    Which might be a reasonable answer if it were not for the apparently deliberate attempts of the government to cause maximum disruption by insisting on an ‘all or nothing’ approach. Which was never going to work, simply due to the size and type of our schooling stock. It’s just too easy to spread virus in it.

    We needed some kind of blended learning, or even a rota, so we could deliver the majority of education to the majority of the children. The fewer there are in schools at any one time, the easier it is to control outbreaks by keeping them further away

    But the government as far as can be judged hasn’t even considered this, apart from next week’s concession on Year 11 and 13, which now probably won’t happen anyway.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
    Well, that would definitely clarify the issue given every time she has been cross examined she has come apart faster than tissue paper in water. But I wish they would, because to watch her being cross-examined by teachers would be even funnier than watching Perdue getting it from Ossoff.

    By the way, she isn’t a politician, she’s a civil servant.
    Yes, I know, that's the point. The media think it's their job to cause the government trouble. So at the start of the week it was the teachers that were the trouble makers, now it's OFSTED. The media aren't interested in weighing up the pros and cons of closing schools, they just want to shit stir.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 86, writ large, that's the same idiocy as when everyone approved the surprising decision to cut FOBT stakes to £2, then months later the BBC was bleating about 'unforeseen consequences' when betting firms had significant job losses.

    Said it for a long time, but the low quality of political media is a serious problem.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    edited January 2021
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
    Well, that would definitely clarify the issue given every time she has been cross examined she has come apart faster than tissue paper in water. But I wish they would, because to watch her being cross-examined by teachers would be even funnier than watching Perdue getting it from Ossoff.

    By the way, she isn’t a politician, she’s a civil servant.
    Yes, I know, that's the point. The media think it's their job to cause the government trouble. So at the start of the week it was the teachers that were the trouble makers, now it's OFSTED. The media aren't interested in weighing up the pros and cons of closing schools, they just want to shit stir.
    Fair point. I apologise.

    Edit - although I was, in fairness to me, working on the assumption she had been ordered to write it by her Ministerial overseers.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
    Well, that would definitely clarify the issue given every time she has been cross examined she has come apart faster than tissue paper in water. But I wish they would, because to watch her being cross-examined by teachers would be even funnier than watching Perdue getting it from Ossoff.

    By the way, she isn’t a politician, she’s a civil servant.
    Yes, I know, that's the point. The media think it's their job to cause the government trouble. So at the start of the week it was the teachers that were the trouble makers, now it's OFSTED. The media aren't interested in weighing up the pros and cons of closing schools, they just want to shit stir.
    Fair point. I apologise.

    Edit - although I was, in fairness to me, working on the assumption she had been ordered to write it by her Ministerial overseers.
    Are OFSTED not independent (or, supposed to be) of ministers? I know that doesn't necessarily mean much in reality, but still.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
    Well, that would definitely clarify the issue given every time she has been cross examined she has come apart faster than tissue paper in water. But I wish they would, because to watch her being cross-examined by teachers would be even funnier than watching Perdue getting it from Ossoff.

    By the way, she isn’t a politician, she’s a civil servant.
    Yes, I know, that's the point. The media think it's their job to cause the government trouble. So at the start of the week it was the teachers that were the trouble makers, now it's OFSTED. The media aren't interested in weighing up the pros and cons of closing schools, they just want to shit stir.
    Fair point. I apologise.

    Edit - although I was, in fairness to me, working on the assumption she had been ordered to write it by her Ministerial overseers.
    Are OFSTED not independent (or, supposed to be) of ministers? I know that doesn't necessarily mean much in reality, but still.
    Not when it comes to media relations.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Talking of arms, here's an excellent piece on all the arms equipment "Global Britain" is flogging to Erdogan, and the zero scrutiny for the Erdogan deal that Brexiters have held up as an example of Truss's success. Very, very short-sighted, because Erdogan's government is now a major cause of instability in the Eastern Mediterranean.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/03/global-britain-is-willing-to-trade-away-everything-including-scruples

    "For example, a large chunk of Turkey-UK trade in previous years has comprised military sales to Ankara. According to Campaign Against the Arms Trade, Britain has exported £1.3bn worth of arms to Turkey since the 2013 Gezi Park popular uprising."

    Guardian commentators not massive fans of defence exports, who’d have thought it?

    Like it or not, defence is a massive industry that supports tens of thousands of UK jobs and generates billions of pounds in exports. We’re going to sell arms to pretty much anyone who wants them - apart from Iran, Russia, China and North Korea, against whom international sanctions apply.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,262
    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
    Well, that would definitely clarify the issue given every time she has been cross examined she has come apart faster than tissue paper in water. But I wish they would, because to watch her being cross-examined by teachers would be even funnier than watching Perdue getting it from Ossoff.

    By the way, she isn’t a politician, she’s a civil servant.
    Yes, I know, that's the point. The media think it's their job to cause the government trouble. So at the start of the week it was the teachers that were the trouble makers, now it's OFSTED. The media aren't interested in weighing up the pros and cons of closing schools, they just want to shit stir.
    Fair point. I apologise.

    Edit - although I was, in fairness to me, working on the assumption she had been ordered to write it by her Ministerial overseers.
    Are OFSTED not independent (or, supposed to be) of ministers? I know that doesn't necessarily mean much in reality, but still.
    Not when it comes to media relations.
    Well you can add media management to the list of things the DfE are rubbish at. If this OFSTED woman is acting on instructions from the DfE, then it's a week too late. All they're doing now is highlighting the downsides of closing schools.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,500
    Interesting piece. Thanks.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    Sandpit said:

    Talking of arms, here's an excellent piece on all the arms equipment "Global Britain" is flogging to Erdogan, and the zero scrutiny for the Erdogan deal that Brexiters have held up as an example of Truss's success. Very, very short-sighted, because Erdogan's government is now a major cause of instability in the Eastern Mediterranean.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/03/global-britain-is-willing-to-trade-away-everything-including-scruples

    "For example, a large chunk of Turkey-UK trade in previous years has comprised military sales to Ankara. According to Campaign Against the Arms Trade, Britain has exported £1.3bn worth of arms to Turkey since the 2013 Gezi Park popular uprising."

    Guardian commentators not massive fans of defence exports, who’d have thought it?

    Like it or not, defence is a massive industry that supports tens of thousands of UK jobs and generates billions of pounds in exports. We’re going to sell arms to pretty much anyone who wants them - apart from Iran, Russia, China and North Korea, against whom international sanctions apply.
    Truthfully, although I dislike Erdogan, I would be hard pressed to argue that he is viler or a worse cause of Anatolian/Arabian instability than the House of Saud. And we’ve been arming them since 1915.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Oh great. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse on schools:

    Covid school closures 'put children's lives on hold', says Ofsted chief
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333685:

    If they want to get schools open again, one quick way would be to close OFSTED, which was responsible for at least three school closures last term by holding unnecessary inspections with infected inspectors.

    She also has a credibility gap given she has never worked in a school, has failed in every job she’s ever done (including a disastrous tenure at OFQUAL) is ignorant of everything to do with education (to the extent she was unaware of what safeguarding is) and generally gives the impression she would be out of her depth running a Sunday school. She’s also a nasty piece of work whom everyone hates.

    They want to get schools open? Get Wilshaw to write something. He’s not popular but he’s both intelligent and respected. But I doubt if they’ll dare do that given he’s working in a school and knows what a shambles everything is.

    The media are so predictable. They spend all week giving airtime to the teachers who want the schools to be shut. The moment the politicians take that decision (or do to a limited extent, anyway), they then start promoting the other side of the argument. Perhaps they should have got this OFSTED person on TV with one of the teachers to debate the issue.
    Well, that would definitely clarify the issue given every time she has been cross examined she has come apart faster than tissue paper in water. But I wish they would, because to watch her being cross-examined by teachers would be even funnier than watching Perdue getting it from Ossoff.

    By the way, she isn’t a politician, she’s a civil servant.
    Yes, I know, that's the point. The media think it's their job to cause the government trouble. So at the start of the week it was the teachers that were the trouble makers, now it's OFSTED. The media aren't interested in weighing up the pros and cons of closing schools, they just want to shit stir.
    Fair point. I apologise.

    Edit - although I was, in fairness to me, working on the assumption she had been ordered to write it by her Ministerial overseers.
    Are OFSTED not independent (or, supposed to be) of ministers? I know that doesn't necessarily mean much in reality, but still.
    Not when it comes to media relations.
    Well you can add media management to the list of things the DfE are rubbish at. If this OFSTED woman is acting on instructions from the DfE, then it's a week too late. All they're doing now is highlighting the downsides of closing schools.
    When it comes to the DfE, it’s quicker to list the things they’re good at.

    Drawing salaries and expenses.
    Cocking things up.

    The rest, however...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Sandpit, best story like that was last year when Sky News bleated and wailed, rent their garments and gnashed their teeth because the UK had sold riot gear to police in... America. And they might've been used during BLM clashes. Oh noes!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,262
    Compliance has been one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented concepts of this pandemic. During the first wave of the virus back in the spring, there was concern that a lengthy lockdown would lead to “behavioural fatigue” and diminishing compliance with social restrictions. In fact, “behavioural fatigue” was not a scientific concept but a political one, neither supported by research from previous epidemics nor by data that subsequently emerged from our lockdown (over 97% showed good compliance with the rules, with no meaningful decrease from March to May). During emergencies, humans are actually primed to act in the collective interest.

    It was only as lockdown was eased that compliance began to decrease. Partly, people felt the situation was safer. But other factors contributed too. For many, the new rules were simply too complex to understand. While during lockdown 90% of adults in the UK reported feeling they understood the rules, by August this figure was just 45% in England. Conflicting rules across UK nations, frequent changes to rules, and confusion about dates of announcement (as opposed to dates of implementation) exacerbated the situation.

    But the message from the government about adherence also changed after the revelations about the actions of Dominic Cummings, which were followed by a decrease in compliance. Returning to a single event might seem like bearing a grudge, but it was pivotal for many reasons. During lockdown the message on compliance was clear: social restrictions were vital to stop the spread of the virus, so everyone had to play their part; no excuses, no exemptions. But Cummings changed the tone: if you could find a loophole in the rules, it somehow became acceptable (and defensible) to break them. The enemy changed from being the virus itself to being the measures designed to curb the virus.

    This shift in tone did not go unnoticed, as our research at UCL showed. The same sacrifices people had willingly made in the spring as part of a collective social responsibility suddenly seemed less necessary. Goodwill turned to anger and upset, largely targeted towards the government that defended Cummings’ actions. Trust in the government to handle the pandemic took a sharp downward turn in England, from which it has not recovered since. Trust is crucial, as research has shown that it is one of the largest behavioural predictors of compliance during this pandemic: larger than mental health, belief in the health service or numerous other factors. As humans, we need to trust our authorities if we are to follow what they tell us to do.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/02/follow-covid-restrictions-break-rules-compliance
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    I genuinely don’t think anyone takes the time to flag stuff like this to ministers. There’s lots of assumptions made on all sides, that take until someone kicks up a stink for it to come to the minister’s attention.

    I come from the viewpoint that we should eliminate as much bureaucracy as possible, and justify from first principles what we are trying to achieve then look at how we can do it as easily as possible. The red tape holds back productivity, but in certain areas appears to be self-justifying by people who have a vested employment interest in keeping up the box-ticking.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Talking of arms, here's an excellent piece on all the arms equipment "Global Britain" is flogging to Erdogan, and the zero scrutiny for the Erdogan deal that Brexiters have held up as an example of Truss's success. Very, very short-sighted, because Erdogan's government is now a major cause of instability in the Eastern Mediterranean.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/03/global-britain-is-willing-to-trade-away-everything-including-scruples

    "For example, a large chunk of Turkey-UK trade in previous years has comprised military sales to Ankara. According to Campaign Against the Arms Trade, Britain has exported £1.3bn worth of arms to Turkey since the 2013 Gezi Park popular uprising."

    Guardian commentators not massive fans of defence exports, who’d have thought it?

    Like it or not, defence is a massive industry that supports tens of thousands of UK jobs and generates billions of pounds in exports. We’re going to sell arms to pretty much anyone who wants them - apart from Iran, Russia, China and North Korea, against whom international sanctions apply.
    Even on Tory terms, this deal runs more immediately counter to the UK's strategic interests than almost any others. The UK has a base in Cyprus ; Erdogan is stirring up instability around Cyprus. The US is in the process of threatening to scale down its co-operation and defence exports with Turkey, and BIden is talking about a completely new policy ; the striking talk of "upgrades" in this deal threaten to ratchet them up . Macron and other EU states are now embarked on a strong backing of Greece and Cyprus and one of the two Libyan regimes against Erdogan ; Erdogan talking about this deal as a "new era" will only alienate the EU in that area as a result. The UK willingness to talk about "upgrades" on the previous EU deal with a rogue regime will raise one of the first questions to the EU over the UK's commitment to the LPF ; etc.

    It's very stupid, short-sighted international politics by a fairly economically desperate administration, not a show of confidence and a new Global Britain.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I'm going to make a concise couple of predictions.

    Boris Johnson will NOT step down before the next election.

    He will win a handsome majority of more than 40 seats. Most people who voted Conservative last time will do so again.

    What about the people who voted Brexit Party, who do they vote for?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Oracle, those are legitimate grounds for concern over the deal, and I largely agree with you.

    The EU doesn't have a leg to stand on morally, though, thanks to its recent Chinese deal. All in the West should be recognising we have a Second Cold War on our hands, and it could get hot in the seas to the south of China.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    Alistair said:

    I'm going to make a concise couple of predictions.

    Boris Johnson will NOT step down before the next election.

    He will win a handsome majority of more than 40 seats. Most people who voted Conservative last time will do so again.

    What about the people who voted Brexit Party, who do they vote for?
    Does anyone have any polling on how many Brexit Party voters were (a) former Tories (b) former Labour and (c) former non-voters?

    I’m thinking there’s a non-trivial chance that (c) is the highest figure, but that’s a guess and I was wondering what information is out there on it.

    Because if it’s (c) odds are they will go back to abstaining, which might also be true for (a).
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,262
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    I genuinely don’t think anyone takes the time to flag stuff like this to ministers. There’s lots of assumptions made on all sides, that take until someone kicks up a stink for it to come to the minister’s attention.

    I come from the viewpoint that we should eliminate as much bureaucracy as possible, and justify from first principles what we are trying to achieve then look at how we can do it as easily as possible. The red tape holds back productivity, but in certain areas appears to be self-justifying by people who have a vested employment interest in keeping up the box-ticking.
    I wasn't thinking so much of red tape as to the sort of meetings we had with the Chief Exec and key directors when we were leading the council. We spent a lot of time knocking about the consequences and necessary actions arising both from current crises and things that might happen in the future. On the same basis I really would have expected competent ministers and officials to have been doing both thinking and preparation for a mass vaccination campaign last year.
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    Too small detail for the minister to know it would be a problem. And if a civil servant on the ground noticed it was going to be a problem, they were probably too far down the food chain to flag it up and get it changed.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    I genuinely don’t think anyone takes the time to flag stuff like this to ministers. There’s lots of assumptions made on all sides, that take until someone kicks up a stink for it to come to the minister’s attention.

    I come from the viewpoint that we should eliminate as much bureaucracy as possible, and justify from first principles what we are trying to achieve then look at how we can do it as easily as possible. The red tape holds back productivity, but in certain areas appears to be self-justifying by people who have a vested employment interest in keeping up the box-ticking.
    I wasn't thinking so much of red tape as to the sort of meetings we had with the Chief Exec and key directors when we were leading the council. We spent a lot of time knocking about the consequences and necessary actions arising both from current crises and things that might happen in the future. On the same basis I really would have expected competent ministers and officials to have been doing both thinking and preparation for a mass vaccination campaign last year.
    I’ve spotted a small flaw here.
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    ydoethur said:

    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.

    Which might be a reasonable answer if it were not for the apparently deliberate attempts of the government to cause maximum disruption by insisting on an ‘all or nothing’ approach. Which was never going to work, simply due to the size and type of our schooling stock. It’s just too easy to spread virus in it.

    We needed some kind of blended learning, or even a rota, so we could deliver the majority of education to the majority of the children. The fewer there are in schools at any one time, the easier it is to control outbreaks by keeping them further away

    But the government as far as can be judged hasn’t even considered this, apart from next week’s concession on Year 11 and 13, which now probably won’t happen anyway.

    It's pretty clear that the government sees an opportunity to attack teaching unions and Labour-run local authorities because it sees culture war opportunities in doing so. Johnson on Marr this morning will no doubt make that crystal clear.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    The other obvious question is why do the rest of us have to put up with the box ticking nonsense of revalidation? With predictable regularity, colleagues coming up for revalidation retire as they cannot be arsed. Ordinarily some at least would have stayed on longer. Has anyone ever proven that it has raised standards in medicine or nursing?

    A bit like OFSTED, why not abolish the whole self serving edifice?
    I should point out that OFSTED has, in some ways, raised standards. It means teachers don’t get complacent and understand they need to be on top of their game all the time.

    The problem is, it varies massively according to who leads it and what their priorities are. Under Wilshaw, his sole concern was to raise the standard of teaching where it was needed. And as a result, despite a lot of howling, he managed that pretty well. Just prior to the introduction of new GCSEs, standards in teaching were probably as high as they reasonably could be (you want to improve further? Cut class sizes). Under Woodhead, it was essentially a one-man ego trip, his attempt to make up for being driven from the teaching profession due to a series of blunders. Under Spielmann, it really does seem to have become a sinecure that serves no useful purpose at all and is actually doing a vast amount of damage.

    I don’t have any instant fixes to that, but one obvious solution is to take control away from Ministers and hand it to the Education Select Committee. They’re doing a lot of good work right now and the wider spread of people on it means it’s less likely a dud will be appointed at the personal whim of a minister, as Morgan did with Spielmann.
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    Interesting piece! Isn't there a harsh reality that whilst the UK has nukes to make it a Global Power it has very little else? Our apparent inability to build anything on time in budget or at all plus the constant run down on the armed forces by those patriotic Tories does leave us rather weak in reality when compared to the rhetoric.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited January 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    Too small detail for the minister to know it would be a problem. And if a civil servant on the ground noticed it was going to be a problem, they were probably too far down the food chain to flag it up and get it changed.
    Indeed, the call would have come down from the minister to the senior civil servants at DoH to reach out to people who did once work for the NHS in a medical capacity but no longer do, and get those willing back ASAP to help with vaccinations.

    The Chinese whispers of the instruction would eventually make it down to an HR manager in a Trust, who simply hears “recruit former staff” and follows the standard recruitment process with all the bollocks attached to it.

    After a few days of the process being live, those trying to be recruited complain to the media and the minister quickly becomes aware, that all the bollocks is both slowing down applications or putting willing volunteers off bothering. Which is where we are now.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,500
    @Dura_Ace

    I believe the estimated 13bn shortfall is over a 10 year timeframe.

    Do you have an idea what that would be as a percentage? And a guess as to what it may end up as as a percentage based on previous experience?

    (Suspect that the first number will be surprisingly small, and the second one will be surprisingly large !)

    Cheers
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Pioneers, struggles with infrastructure are far from UK-only. I forgot the name, but Germany's buggered up building a new airport quite badly.

    I agree we should increase our Defence spending and capabilities. Unfortunately, increasing that isn't seen as a vote-winner and cutting it doesn't get the pearl-clutching angst that attends other departments.

    One of the few upsides of the incumbent imbecile's addiction to splurging on spending is that Defence might actually get some more cash.
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    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,684

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.
    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    Too small detail for the minister to know it would be a problem. And if a civil servant on the ground noticed it was going to be a problem, they were probably too far down the food chain to flag it up and get it changed.
    And the good and experienced civil servants were driven out in the Cummings persecution.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183

    Mr. Pioneers, struggles with infrastructure are far from UK-only. I forgot the name, but Germany's buggered up building a new airport quite badly.

    I agree we should increase our Defence spending and capabilities. Unfortunately, increasing that isn't seen as a vote-winner and cutting it doesn't get the pearl-clutching angst that attends other departments.

    One of the few upsides of the incumbent imbecile's addiction to splurging on spending is that Defence might actually get some more cash.

    The Berliner Brandenburg Airport.

    Smoke rises.

    https://onemileatatime.com/berlin-brandenburg-airport/
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231
    Outstanding piece. So superior to the guff on this subject usually produced in the Sunday’s.

    The problem I see with our armed forces is that some time ago now they fell below the critical mass which makes any hi tech program viable or economically sane. Politics means we still want to resource their needs domestically but the reality is that we need to stop pretending and buy US kit with its vastly larger production runs.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Pioneers, struggles with infrastructure are far from UK-only. I forgot the name, but Germany's buggered up building a new airport quite badly.

    I agree we should increase our Defence spending and capabilities. Unfortunately, increasing that isn't seen as a vote-winner and cutting it doesn't get the pearl-clutching angst that attends other departments.

    One of the few upsides of the incumbent imbecile's addiction to splurging on spending is that Defence might actually get some more cash.

    The Berliner Brandenburg Airport.

    Smoke rises.

    https://onemileatatime.com/berlin-brandenburg-airport/
    ... and accumulates at the top of the building structure, becuase the fire vents don’t work.

    That project was a total mess from start to finish. If it wasn’t for the pride of the politicians wanting to fix it, they’d have demolished the terminal building and started again, it was that bad.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.

    Part of the solution is surely to prioritise vaccinating teachers? Doesn’t help with the kids spreading it bit of course.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Pioneers, struggles with infrastructure are far from UK-only. I forgot the name, but Germany's buggered up building a new airport quite badly.

    I agree we should increase our Defence spending and capabilities. Unfortunately, increasing that isn't seen as a vote-winner and cutting it doesn't get the pearl-clutching angst that attends other departments.

    One of the few upsides of the incumbent imbecile's addiction to splurging on spending is that Defence might actually get some more cash.

    The Berliner Brandenburg Airport.

    Smoke rises.

    https://onemileatatime.com/berlin-brandenburg-airport/
    ... and accumulates at the top of the building structure, becuase the fire vents don’t work.

    That project was a total mess from start to finish. If it wasn’t for the pride of the politicians wanting to fix it, they’d have demolished the terminal building and started again, it was that bad.
    It wasn’t necessarily that they didn’t work. It was that they were in the floor. So the smoke never got near enough to them to find out if they worked or not.
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    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183

    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?

    No. At this moment, I do not know who or what I am teaching this week.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    DavidL said:

    Outstanding piece. So superior to the guff on this subject usually produced in the Sunday’s.

    The problem I see with our armed forces is that some time ago now they fell below the critical mass which makes any hi tech program viable or economically sane. Politics means we still want to resource their needs domestically but the reality is that we need to stop pretending and buy US kit with its vastly larger production runs.

    If you want an example of how a mid tier power does defence procurement better than the UK look at Australia.

    They split their major projects across European and US suppliers to keep them all hungry and (relatively) honest. They don't fuck around with the design or requirements because they think they're special or know better They build their own ships when it makes strategic sense but the government owns the military shipyards so the winning constructors have to lease the construction facilities from ASC.

    Their defence budget is about 50% of the British but they've got a lot more than 50% of the capability.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm going to make a concise couple of predictions.

    Boris Johnson will NOT step down before the next election.

    He will win a handsome majority of more than 40 seats. Most people who voted Conservative last time will do so again.

    What about the people who voted Brexit Party, who do they vote for?
    Does anyone have any polling on how many Brexit Party voters were (a) former Tories (b) former Labour and (c) former non-voters?

    I’m thinking there’s a non-trivial chance that (c) is the highest figure, but that’s a guess and I was wondering what information is out there on it.

    Because if it’s (c) odds are they will go back to abstaining, which might also be true for (a).
    That question more important to answer on a constituency by constituency basis.

    Any Red Wall seat with a Lab+Brexit >Con score needs a good hard look.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    MattW said:

    @Dura_Ace

    I believe the estimated 13bn shortfall is over a 10 year timeframe.

    It's about a 3-4% shortfall but I suspect nobody really knows or wants to know what it would look like in 10 years. We'll be balls deep in Tempest, Dreadnought, T4X, Astute replacement and the gods of war knows what by then.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Alistair said:

    I'm going to make a concise couple of predictions.

    Boris Johnson will NOT step down before the next election.

    He will win a handsome majority of more than 40 seats. Most people who voted Conservative last time will do so again.

    What about the people who voted Brexit Party, who do they vote for?
    I'm thinking not for that architect of Remain resistance, the leader of the Labour Party. A net gain for the Tory vote, however you carve it up, but probably modest. Enough to keep a few more Tory MPs in place.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,870
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    What, in your mind, are the issues that perpetually seem to affect procurement? Is it scope creep, vendors underpricing themselves, trying to reinvent the wheel, poor contract management, or all of the above plus some more?

    Pretty much. If the answer were simple or easy somebody would have sorted it out by now.

    Modern defence systems are incredibly expensive to acquire and require a great deal of specialist, technical expertise to operate. That means for just about all nations that multinational collaboration is the only way to acquire complex capabilities.

    The eurocent is starting to drop with the MoD. The MQ-9C UAS fleet is going to be jointly operated with the Belgian Air Component.
    Excellent article Dura Ace @Dura_Ace
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231

    Haha was just chuckling to myself at that wonderful moment in HP when Dolores Umbridge declares,

    'I really hate children'

    Every one of us who has been involved in education knows of some teachers, inspectors and educationalists of whom that could be said.

    I always thought that Delores Umbridge was the most brilliantly drawn "baddy" in those books, evil but instantly recognisable. The motivation of most of the other baddies was often hard to work out but her obsession with rules, her self indulgence and her willingness to do anything that the rules required was just superb.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Foxy said:

    Good header @Dura_Ace, and thanks for keeping the jargon to a minimum.

    Have we really considered who and where our forces are ever going to fight?

    Aircraft carriers for example are only useful for fighting wars out of range of UK and Cyprus SBA range, or friendly nearby countries. It seems absurd for nearly our entire navy to be designed to protect a single carrier, which seems likely to never participate in active combat.

    Similarly the Army has a devotion to main battle tanks and heavy artillery that it is never going to be used. We are not going to be facing down Ivan on the North German plain again, or invading Iraq, and even there it was lighter, mobile forces that were needed.

    Even more so the Trident subs, everything seems oriented to fight the Cold War, despite it ending 30 years ago, rather than the counter insurgency wars, or light expeditionary service that we actually do engage in.

    Even @HYUFD with his plans to invade Wales and Scotland should surely concede that we are unlikely to want to pound Stirling Castle to rubble with heavy howitzers.

    Well said and thanks for the header.

    For me, it doesn't feel like this long list of contraptions is really focused on actual defence of our country.

    As opposed to keeping certain men nostalgic.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    rkrkrk said:

    For me, it doesn't feel like this long list of contraptions is really focused on actual defence of our country.

    As opposed to keeping certain men nostalgic.

    Toxic nostalgia seems to be a root of many problems...
  • Options
    rkrkrk said:

    Foxy said:

    Good header @Dura_Ace, and thanks for keeping the jargon to a minimum.

    Have we really considered who and where our forces are ever going to fight?

    Aircraft carriers for example are only useful for fighting wars out of range of UK and Cyprus SBA range, or friendly nearby countries. It seems absurd for nearly our entire navy to be designed to protect a single carrier, which seems likely to never participate in active combat.

    Similarly the Army has a devotion to main battle tanks and heavy artillery that it is never going to be used. We are not going to be facing down Ivan on the North German plain again, or invading Iraq, and even there it was lighter, mobile forces that were needed.

    Even more so the Trident subs, everything seems oriented to fight the Cold War, despite it ending 30 years ago, rather than the counter insurgency wars, or light expeditionary service that we actually do engage in.

    Even @HYUFD with his plans to invade Wales and Scotland should surely concede that we are unlikely to want to pound Stirling Castle to rubble with heavy howitzers.

    Well said and thanks for the header.

    For me, it doesn't feel like this long list of contraptions is really focused on actual defence of our country.

    As opposed to keeping certain men nostalgic.
    Free Viagra would be a lot cheaper.
    Though as with HM Armed Forces, what they’d do with that new weaponry is another question.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    DavidL said:

    Haha was just chuckling to myself at that wonderful moment in HP when Dolores Umbridge declares,

    'I really hate children'

    Every one of us who has been involved in education knows of some teachers, inspectors and educationalists of whom that could be said.

    I always thought that Delores Umbridge was the most brilliantly drawn "baddy" in those books, evil but instantly recognisable. The motivation of most of the other baddies was often hard to work out but her obsession with rules, her self indulgence and her willingness to do anything that the rules required was just superb.
    And brilliantly portrayed by Imelda Staunton.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2021

    Mr. Oracle, those are legitimate grounds for concern over the deal, and I largely agree with you.

    The EU doesn't have a leg to stand on morally, though, thanks to its recent Chinese deal. All in the West should be recognising we have a Second Cold War on our hands, and it could get hot in the seas to the south of China.

    However we might see the EU I would say the problem here, though, is that this has been very stupid international politics. Both the US and EU are concerned about Erdogan and modifying their relationships, either threatening sanctions, in the case of the EU, or about to reverse defence export policy, in the case of the US. This has been handled so poorly that it threatens an "upgrade" to UK defence exports to Turkey in that context, taking the UK completely out of step with these two other powers.

    The Eastern Mediterranean is a lot nearer to the UK's base in Cyprus than the South China seas, and I think Erdogan presents a much more immediate and geographically proximate problem than China ; which is just one reason why the handling of this deal is so strategically inept.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,540
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    The other obvious question is why do the rest of us have to put up with the box ticking nonsense of revalidation? With predictable regularity, colleagues coming up for revalidation retire as they cannot be arsed. Ordinarily some at least would have stayed on longer. Has anyone ever proven that it has raised standards in medicine or nursing?

    A bit like OFSTED, why not abolish the whole self serving edifice?
    I should point out that OFSTED has, in some ways, raised standards. It means teachers don’t get complacent and understand they need to be on top of their game all the time.

    The problem is, it varies massively according to who leads it and what their priorities are. Under Wilshaw, his sole concern was to raise the standard of teaching where it was needed. And as a result, despite a lot of howling, he managed that pretty well. Just prior to the introduction of new GCSEs, standards in teaching were probably as high as they reasonably could be (you want to improve further? Cut class sizes). Under Woodhead, it was essentially a one-man ego trip, his attempt to make up for being driven from the teaching profession due to a series of blunders. Under Spielmann, it really does seem to have become a sinecure that serves no useful purpose at all and is actually doing a vast amount of damage.

    I don’t have any instant fixes to that, but one obvious solution is to take control away from Ministers and hand it to the Education Select Committee. They’re doing a lot of good work right now and the wider spread of people on it means it’s less likely a dud will be appointed at the personal whim of a minister, as Morgan did with Spielmann.
    That's pretty accurate. Ofsted needs a Head (HMCI) who stands up to ministers and the DfE to assert its independence. Wilshaw did this, and would not be cowed. Christine Gilbert (2006-2011) was, if anything, even worse than Spielman; Ofsted had very little independence during her tenure.

    Mind you, you'd get a low grade for misspelling Spielman's name.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    Alistair said:

    I'm going to make a concise couple of predictions.

    Boris Johnson will NOT step down before the next election.

    He will win a handsome majority of more than 40 seats. Most people who voted Conservative last time will do so again.

    What about the people who voted Brexit Party, who do they vote for?
    Possible that Farage will have some kind of party for them to vote for, that might even contest seats held by the Tories this time, which would change the effect it has.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231
    ydoethur said:

    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?

    No. At this moment, I do not know who or what I am teaching this week.
    In Scotland things are a little better in that schools are not to go back physically until the 18th and that may well be moved further. Online learning is due to start in State schools on the 11th although my son's school will start that again on the 6th. They have the considerable advantage of having an online system that actually works from the first lockdown which very few state schools do since most seem to have treated it as an extended holiday.

    What is missing is an appreciation of how hard online learning is. Almost all the children at my son's school have both the kit and the familiarity with it, they have adequate space and quiet in which to work, they have motivated parents (who after all are paying for this) who generally had at least University level learning themselves and they have staff in schools with adequate access to resources to make it work. Imagining that it is possible to duplicate these elements in a state school setting involves a higher level of fantasy than even the Defence Department are capable of, it really can't be done. And that is before you get to issues such as vulnerable and abused children whose school is an essential sanctuary where they are temporarily safe and fed and treated like a human being.

    So online learning is in reality a sop with just enough reality attached to allow a pretense. The Education establishment might get away with it because they have once again removed any objective criteria in the "assessment" of children. Many of those in the upper years of schooling will effectively finish their school year in January if they get to sit prelims (mocks, I believe the benighted call them). Some will not even do that but be "assessed" on class work already done and, much more significantly, on what the schools know their conditional offers are.

    If I sound a little bitter its because I am. My son has had his 2 most important years of schooling wreaked, his opportunity to show what he can do taken away from him forever, his hard work (and god he works hard, much harder than I ever did) put to waste. The combination of incompetent ministers and a profession that frankly doesn't always come across as especially professional means that he will have certificates that are degraded and devalued for the rest of his life.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt Hancock orders urgent review into application process for vaccine drive volunteers.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/02/matt-hancock-cut-red-tape-stopping-retired-doctors-signing-covid/

    “ He has ordered a review and made it clear that he intends to cut any red tape to make it as streamlined as possible for retired GPs to help with administering Covid-19 jabs.

    The move has won the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the health and social care select committee chairman, who told The Telegraph on Saturday: "In this new post-Brexit era of getting rid of unnecessary red tape, this should be top of the list. Never have we needed the help of skilled volunteers more badly or more urgently." ”

    Good - but don’t you wish we had politicians with the foresight to have done stuff like this last year?
    The other obvious question is why do the rest of us have to put up with the box ticking nonsense of revalidation? With predictable regularity, colleagues coming up for revalidation retire as they cannot be arsed. Ordinarily some at least would have stayed on longer. Has anyone ever proven that it has raised standards in medicine or nursing?

    A bit like OFSTED, why not abolish the whole self serving edifice?
    I should point out that OFSTED has, in some ways, raised standards. It means teachers don’t get complacent and understand they need to be on top of their game all the time.

    The problem is, it varies massively according to who leads it and what their priorities are. Under Wilshaw, his sole concern was to raise the standard of teaching where it was needed. And as a result, despite a lot of howling, he managed that pretty well. Just prior to the introduction of new GCSEs, standards in teaching were probably as high as they reasonably could be (you want to improve further? Cut class sizes). Under Woodhead, it was essentially a one-man ego trip, his attempt to make up for being driven from the teaching profession due to a series of blunders. Under Spielmann, it really does seem to have become a sinecure that serves no useful purpose at all and is actually doing a vast amount of damage.

    I don’t have any instant fixes to that, but one obvious solution is to take control away from Ministers and hand it to the Education Select Committee. They’re doing a lot of good work right now and the wider spread of people on it means it’s less likely a dud will be appointed at the personal whim of a minister, as Morgan did with Spielmann.
    That's pretty accurate. Ofsted needs a Head (HMCI) who stands up to ministers and the DfE to assert its independence. Wilshaw did this, and would not be cowed. Christine Gilbert (2006-2011) was, if anything, even worse than Spielman; Ofsted had very little independence during her tenure.

    Mind you, you'd get a low grade for misspelling Spielman's name.
    So I have. I thought it was double N but apparently it has been anglicised.

    Not a very accurate name though. I suppose she could be a joke, if she were only funny.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm going to make a concise couple of predictions.

    Boris Johnson will NOT step down before the next election.

    He will win a handsome majority of more than 40 seats. Most people who voted Conservative last time will do so again.

    What about the people who voted Brexit Party, who do they vote for?
    Does anyone have any polling on how many Brexit Party voters were (a) former Tories (b) former Labour and (c) former non-voters?

    I’m thinking there’s a non-trivial chance that (c) is the highest figure, but that’s a guess and I was wondering what information is out there on it.

    Because if it’s (c) odds are they will go back to abstaining, which might also be true for (a).
    That question more important to answer on a constituency by constituency basis.

    Any Red Wall seat with a Lab+Brexit >Con score needs a good hard look.
    Up here on Teesside the BXP voters are largely ex-Labour. There has been something of an exodus away from Labour from "traditional" voters who have decided that the largely useless and self-serving Labour politicians in the area haven't done enough to improve their lives. Which is where the various independents and the Brexit Party have hoovered up.

    Where there was a serious Tory challenger enough Labour voters went all the way and voted Tory - and once you've crossed that rubicon it isn't an outrageous suggestion that they may stay there. Yes BXP picked up some of the non-voters who turned out to vote for Brexit but if you don't vote you don't vote, they won't stick around.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Oracle, it's true Turkey is more proximate, but the scale of the Chinese threat is global.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,193

    DavidL said:

    Haha was just chuckling to myself at that wonderful moment in HP when Dolores Umbridge declares,

    'I really hate children'

    Every one of us who has been involved in education knows of some teachers, inspectors and educationalists of whom that could be said.

    I always thought that Delores Umbridge was the most brilliantly drawn "baddy" in those books, evil but instantly recognisable. The motivation of most of the other baddies was often hard to work out but her obsession with rules, her self indulgence and her willingness to do anything that the rules required was just superb.
    And brilliantly portrayed by Imelda Staunton.
    She also had an instinctive hatred of the "other" - that she didn't understand and feared as a result - that feels familiar in the context of immigration and racism.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,399

    DavidL said:

    Haha was just chuckling to myself at that wonderful moment in HP when Dolores Umbridge declares,

    'I really hate children'

    Every one of us who has been involved in education knows of some teachers, inspectors and educationalists of whom that could be said.

    I always thought that Delores Umbridge was the most brilliantly drawn "baddy" in those books, evil but instantly recognisable. The motivation of most of the other baddies was often hard to work out but her obsession with rules, her self indulgence and her willingness to do anything that the rules required was just superb.
    And brilliantly portrayed by Imelda Staunton.
    I just thought it was a sloppy Margaret Thatcher parody written by somebody who didn't understand who the lady was or what motivated her.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994

    Great header DA - how Pike ever got MoD.......

    OT:

    It's an interesting thread but he completely misses the emotional aspect of The Project. Mitterand insisted, for sentimental reasons, that Greece should be admitted to the EC despite not meeting the criteria for accession. It was felt that the very notion of Europe was incomplete without its cultural Hellenic bedrock.

    I can't claim to be an expert EU kremlinologist but more than 10 of my old students work in the commission now so I do have some insight. They all think that Scotland will have 'sa propre place' in the Union as Ayrault said and a way will be found to make it happen.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    I wish there was some nuance and discrimination in schools policy. Kids should remain at home, but the mental health / development risks of not seeing friends are real. Also it’s very disruptive in exam years.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?

    No. At this moment, I do not know who or what I am teaching this week.
    In Scotland things are a little better in that schools are not to go back physically until the 18th and that may well be moved further. Online learning is due to start in State schools on the 11th although my son's school will start that again on the 6th. They have the considerable advantage of having an online system that actually works from the first lockdown which very few state schools do since most seem to have treated it as an extended holiday.

    What is missing is an appreciation of how hard online learning is. Almost all the children at my son's school have both the kit and the familiarity with it, they have adequate space and quiet in which to work, they have motivated parents (who after all are paying for this) who generally had at least University level learning themselves and they have staff in schools with adequate access to resources to make it work. Imagining that it is possible to duplicate these elements in a state school setting involves a higher level of fantasy than even the Defence Department are capable of, it really can't be done. And that is before you get to issues such as vulnerable and abused children whose school is an essential sanctuary where they are temporarily safe and fed and treated like a human being.

    So online learning is in reality a sop with just enough reality attached to allow a pretense. The Education establishment might get away with it because they have once again removed any objective criteria in the "assessment" of children. Many of those in the upper years of schooling will effectively finish their school year in January if they get to sit prelims (mocks, I believe the benighted call them). Some will not even do that but be "assessed" on class work already done and, much more significantly, on what the schools know their conditional offers are.

    If I sound a little bitter its because I am. My son has had his 2 most important years of schooling wreaked, his opportunity to show what he can do taken away from him forever, his hard work (and god he works hard, much harder than I ever did) put to waste. The combination of incompetent ministers and a profession that frankly doesn't always come across as especially professional means that he will have certificates that are degraded and devalued for the rest of his life.
    The problem is we are in a situation on schools where, as MysticRose rightly points out, there are no good choices.

    However, there are bad choices and worse choices. At every stage, every government in the United Kingdom has made the worse choice. This is partly because the worse choice is always the better for their own careers and pay packets, and that’s what they really care about.

    So education, which was always going to be a serious problem, has become an unmitigated catastrophe.

    And it’s the children who are the losers.

    If I sound angry and bitter it’s because I am. I think as soon as I can get another job I will be leaving teaching, because I refuse to work for such utter scum.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    edited January 2021

    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.

    What I don't understand is why the emphasis is on primary schoolchildren. Secondary school kids are largely adapted to the internet age - including spending a lot of non-school time online as the instinctively natural way to socialise. One can worry about that but it's been a thing for some time. With the exception of those who can't afford it at all or live in very remote areas with no signal, having a few weeks accessing lessons at home is not a huge deal. And older kids seem more vulnerable to the virus, even the new strain.

    For primary kids, I'd have thought all that was less true. Sure, they access the internet routinely too, but the issues about mental health and learning to mix may loom larger if you've hardly been to school yet.

    Personally I'd shut down all schools and universities until the crisis eases. But if we're going to be selective, why not concentrate on the older kids?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    edited January 2021

    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.

    What I don't understand is why the emphasis is on primary schoolchildren. Secondary school kids are largely adapted to the internet age - including spending a lot of non-school time online as the instinctively natural way to socialise. One can worry about that but it's been a thing for some time. With the exception of those who can't afford it at all or live in very remote areas with no signal, having a few weeks accessing lessons at home is not a huge deal. And older kids seem more vulnerable to the virus, even the new strain.

    For primary kids, I'd have thought all that was less true. Sure, they access the internet routinely too, but the issues about mental health and learning to mix may loom larger if you've hardly been to school yet.

    Personally I'd shut down all schools and universities until the crisis eases. But if we're going to be selective, why not concentrate on the older kids?
    Because you have to get much closer to small children them to teach them effectively, and they tend to be less clear about space and touching.

    I can command a class of year nine from the front with just my voice. It’s difficult, and it’s not good educationally, but it can just about be done. But I have taught Year 5 as well and it simply wasn’t possible to teach them the same way.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,193

    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.

    I support in general the government's desire to keep schools open, but ultimately it's the virus that decides.

    The UK has record numbers of Covid patients in hospital, and Cockney Covid still spreading rampantly, so to maintain the ability of the NHS to provide life-saving treatment we have no option but to take all steps to reduce Covid transmission.

    The time for arguing that the government could keep schools open by tweaking the tiers, or improving tracing and isolation is passed. They need to close, probably until we have the number of Covid patients in hospital back below 20,000 - or at least until admissions are below 1,000 a day.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    Dura_Ace said:

    Great header DA - how Pike ever got MoD.......

    OT:

    It's an interesting thread but he completely misses the emotional aspect of The Project. Mitterand insisted, for sentimental reasons, that Greece should be admitted to the EC despite not meeting the criteria for accession. It was felt that the very notion of Europe was incomplete without its cultural Hellenic bedrock.

    I can't claim to be an expert EU kremlinologist but more than 10 of my old students work in the commission now so I do have some insight. They all think that Scotland will have 'sa propre place' in the Union as Ayrault said and a way will be found to make it happen.
    I think that Scotland would be welcomed into the EU, and accession speedy, owing to the existing compliances being currently in place, and unlikely to be significantly deviated from in the intervening period.

    With 6 million people and good GDP per capita, Scotland would be a midsized EU country, particularly as the South Balkans will be making up the numbers too.

    The strength of a union is more evident to the individually less powerful, indeed that is why unions are formed.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?

    No. At this moment, I do not know who or what I am teaching this week.
    In Scotland things are a little better in that schools are not to go back physically until the 18th and that may well be moved further. Online learning is due to start in State schools on the 11th although my son's school will start that again on the 6th. They have the considerable advantage of having an online system that actually works from the first lockdown which very few state schools do since most seem to have treated it as an extended holiday.

    What is missing is an appreciation of how hard online learning is. Almost all the children at my son's school have both the kit and the familiarity with it, they have adequate space and quiet in which to work, they have motivated parents (who after all are paying for this) who generally had at least University level learning themselves and they have staff in schools with adequate access to resources to make it work. Imagining that it is possible to duplicate these elements in a state school setting involves a higher level of fantasy than even the Defence Department are capable of, it really can't be done. And that is before you get to issues such as vulnerable and abused children whose school is an essential sanctuary where they are temporarily safe and fed and treated like a human being.

    So online learning is in reality a sop with just enough reality attached to allow a pretense. The Education establishment might get away with it because they have once again removed any objective criteria in the "assessment" of children. Many of those in the upper years of schooling will effectively finish their school year in January if they get to sit prelims (mocks, I believe the benighted call them). Some will not even do that but be "assessed" on class work already done and, much more significantly, on what the schools know their conditional offers are.

    If I sound a little bitter its because I am. My son has had his 2 most important years of schooling wreaked, his opportunity to show what he can do taken away from him forever, his hard work (and god he works hard, much harder than I ever did) put to waste. The combination of incompetent ministers and a profession that frankly doesn't always come across as especially professional means that he will have certificates that are degraded and devalued for the rest of his life.
    The problem is we are in a situation on schools where, as MysticRose rightly points out, there are no good choices.

    However, there are bad choices and worse choices. At every stage, every government in the United Kingdom has made the worse choice. This is partly because the worse choice is always the better for their own careers and pay packets, and that’s what they really care about.

    So education, which was always going to be a serious problem, has become an unmitigated catastrophe.

    And it’s the children who are the losers.

    If I sound angry and bitter it’s because I am. I think as soon as I can get another job I will be leaving teaching, because I refuse to work for such utter scum.
    Whilst I can readily understand how you feel that way it really is important that those who actually care about education rather than process and learning rather than certificates hang in there, no matter how hostile the atmosphere is to such beliefs. Stay strong @ydoethur, stay strong.
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    Haha was just chuckling to myself at that wonderful moment in HP when Dolores Umbridge declares,

    'I really hate children'

    Every one of us who has been involved in education knows of some teachers, inspectors and educationalists of whom that could be said.

    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?

    We are all working from home, so teaching each class at the time they would have been taught anyway.
    The classes I’m not sure what to do with are my Y11s; they were supposed to be doing mocks this week. I’m hoping they will do them next week, but do I have a revision lesson, or should I start on the next topic?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,399
    Fpt
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Torygraph promoting snake-oil I see: "Rosemary Conley - The 28-day Immunity Plan"
    Nothing wrong with using foods to boost your immune system and general health. Not sure Rosemary Conley's plan is any good mind.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/natural-remedies-that-claim-to-boost-your-immune-system-dont-work--and-thats-a-good-thing-2015-6
    Remarkably perceptive of the author to know that something is an expensive placebo without actually knowing what it is.
    I think you're missing the point: you don't want to boost your immune system. If you boost you immune system you end up with all kinds of problems.

    (Or to put it another way, far far more people have problems with overactive immune systems than underactive ones.)
    I’m not sure that those who make such claims for immune system ‘boosters’ really know what they mean by ‘boost’ in this context, anyway.

    Of course it’s true that if you’re seriously malnourished, or very unhealthy, then your immune system is likely to function less well, but that doesn’t seem to be what they’re talking about,
    Indeed. It's appalling pseudoscience.
    The only appalling pseudoscience I can find is in the article you posted. It's a fatuous complete straw man argument to say that someone trying to 'boost' their immune system is actually aiming for an exaggerated inflammatory response. Clearly they are aiming to build general health and provide the body with the resources it needs to fight off infection more quickly. The body deals with viruses (some of which are dormant in the body) and other pathogens all the time. Some will develop into illnesses, the better the immune system works, the less this will happen. To argue that attempting to enhance the effectiveness of the immune system is a fool's errand and you should just give up and take lots of ibuprofen when it happens, is not only wrong, it is also grotesquely irresponsible, because it actively discourages those who are concerned about viruses from taking beneficial steps to improve their health.
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    Rather than getting all angry and angsty on here about the schools issue, it's a genuinely really tricky decision. At least two of the counter-balancing arguments are heavy. On the one side it's clear that kids are rapidly spreading this virus. You can understand why teachers are concerned. A friend of mine is 'terrified.' They don't even get the kind of PPE of frontline health carers. Kids spread it and take it home. Not good.

    On the other side of the scale, it's really important that children are in school for their education, mental and physical health. The last two also apply to parents and carers. And the latter extends into the economy. If children have to be at home it's nigh-impossible to work. I've tried.

    This is NOT an easy one. So everyone needs to take the heat out of this.

    What I don't understand is why the emphasis is on primary schoolchildren. Secondary school kids are largely adapted to the internet age - including spending a lot of non-school time online as the instinctively natural way to socialise. One can worry about that but it's been a thing for some time. With the exception of those who can't afford it at all or live in very remote areas with no signal, having a few weeks accessing lessons at home is not a huge deal. And older kids seem more vulnerable to the virus, even the new strain.

    For primary kids, I'd have thought all that was less true. Sure, they access the internet routinely too, but the issues about mental health and learning to mix may loom larger if you've hardly been to school yet.

    Personally I'd shut down all schools and universities until the crisis eases. But if we're going to be selective, why not concentrate on the older kids?
    Because the Wazzock Williamson had declared everything was perfectly safe and his boss Shagger had weaponised the health of children and their teachers as a stick to beat Labour with.

    To accept the truth - that it was never safe and that once again their cretinism has killed people - is something they are too arrogant to consider.

    I have two school-age kids who need an education. But you cannot run a school in a covid-secure manner, as witness by the illnesses and sadly one death that I know of amongst local teachers. Frankly it really isn't helped by the mentality of some parents who clearly don't understand or care what safe behaviour is.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    This government has got education policy through Covid consistently wrong. Instead of using this as an opportunity to invest in facilities and support staff, it chose a party political route and then implemented in a chaotic way. Scandalous really. The kids suffer.
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    An interesting Twitter thread on Scottish independence which looks at the issue from the wrong angle. It isn't reasons why departure is so problematic that is concerning people, its reasons why staying is so problematic.

    We've just had Brexit. Leaving the EU, EEA and CU very clearly sets this country back yet it is supported because staying in was perceived as worse. The same is true in Scotland where the UK is increasingly the "other" that is repressing their ability to forge their own path.

    Saying "leaving won't be easy" is to rerun the failed brexit remain campaign. Positive reasons to stay need to be argued - not just hot air ones but practicalities as to how Scotland can be made better inside a refreshed union. Not "rebellious Scots to crush" as advocated by the Baronet of Epping Forest.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887

    Because the Wazzock Williamson had declared everything was perfectly safe and his boss Shagger had weaponised the health of children and their teachers as a stick to beat Labour with.

    To accept the truth - that it was never safe and that once again their cretinism has killed people - is something they are too arrogant to consider.

    The story that BoZo is postponing a reshuffle until November reveals his priority.

    It's not about who is best in post. It's about a good headline. And he can't get a good headline out of the reshuffle because of the pandemic.

    So Pike stays in post.

    Tragic.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2021
    Dura_Ace said:

    Great header DA - how Pike ever got MoD.......

    OT:

    It's an interesting thread but he completely misses the emotional aspect of The Project. Mitterand insisted, for sentimental reasons, that Greece should be admitted to the EC despite not meeting the criteria for accession. It was felt that the very notion of Europe was incomplete without its cultural Hellenic bedrock.

    I can't claim to be an expert EU kremlinologist but more than 10 of my old students work in the commission now so I do have some insight. They all think that Scotland will have 'sa propre place' in the Union as Ayrault said and a way will be found to make it happen.
    Greece is where the emotional and pragmatic dimensions of the EU merge, which is what makes Macron's now strong alliance with Greece against Turkey so interesting. The idea of Europe not making sense without its founding area does make a certain amount of conceptual sense ; and at the same time its accession both opened the way to securing the other former sunny military regimes of Spain and Portugal, and integrating them into the bloc, but also just as crucially paving the way for later North-East European expansion later on, as the first time the bloc had moved beyond its roughly North-West European core.

    This mixture of European idealism and strategic realpolitik is the same reason that Macron is taking such a firm stance against Erdogan at the moment. In purely cynical terms, given that Britain was so aware of this strategic aspect it was crucial in Modern Greece's independence, it would probably do well remember why it has a base in Cyprus in the first place.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    edited January 2021
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?

    No. At this moment, I do not know who or what I am teaching this week.
    In Scotland things are a little better in that schools are not to go back physically until the 18th and that may well be moved further. Online learning is due to start in State schools on the 11th although my son's school will start that again on the 6th. They have the considerable advantage of having an online system that actually works from the first lockdown which very few state schools do since most seem to have treated it as an extended holiday.

    What is missing is an appreciation of how hard online learning is. Almost all the children at my son's school have both the kit and the familiarity with it, they have adequate space and quiet in which to work, they have motivated parents (who after all are paying for this) who generally had at least University level learning themselves and they have staff in schools with adequate access to resources to make it work. Imagining that it is possible to duplicate these elements in a state school setting involves a higher level of fantasy than even the Defence Department are capable of, it really can't be done. And that is before you get to issues such as vulnerable and abused children whose school is an essential sanctuary where they are temporarily safe and fed and treated like a human being.

    So online learning is in reality a sop with just enough reality attached to allow a pretense. The Education establishment might get away with it because they have once again removed any objective criteria in the "assessment" of children. Many of those in the upper years of schooling will effectively finish their school year in January if they get to sit prelims (mocks, I believe the benighted call them). Some will not even do that but be "assessed" on class work already done and, much more significantly, on what the schools know their conditional offers are.

    If I sound a little bitter its because I am. My son has had his 2 most important years of schooling wreaked, his opportunity to show what he can do taken away from him forever, his hard work (and god he works hard, much harder than I ever did) put to waste. The combination of incompetent ministers and a profession that frankly doesn't always come across as especially professional means that he will have certificates that are degraded and devalued for the rest of his life.
    Few thoughts. First of all, I have a feeling, MrL, that your son is typical of his generation in working hard; I don't share the standard view that the youth of today are not what we/their grandfathers (etc) were. The massive charitable efforts are my evidence.

    However, I agree with you that there is a massive difference between the internet access available in some homes as opposed to that in others. Laptops and iPads have been supplied to the (disadvantaged) school where my grandson teaches, and leads on on-line learning, but by no means enough. Nor is there always adequate supervision at home. I also agree that for abused and vulnerable children there's often no place like school!

    I would though, suggest that most of those of us who are parents become over-fixated on exam results. While I would agree that a First indicates a potential for 'success', I would suggest that 'ability to do the job' counts for a lot more in all levels of society than paper qualifications.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,399
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Great header DA - how Pike ever got MoD.......

    OT:

    It's an interesting thread but he completely misses the emotional aspect of The Project. Mitterand insisted, for sentimental reasons, that Greece should be admitted to the EC despite not meeting the criteria for accession. It was felt that the very notion of Europe was incomplete without its cultural Hellenic bedrock.

    I can't claim to be an expert EU kremlinologist but more than 10 of my old students work in the commission now so I do have some insight. They all think that Scotland will have 'sa propre place' in the Union as Ayrault said and a way will be found to make it happen.
    I think that Scotland would be welcomed into the EU, and accession speedy, owing to the existing compliances being currently in place, and unlikely to be significantly deviated from in the intervening period.

    With 6 million people and good GDP per capita, Scotland would be a midsized EU country, particularly as the South Balkans will be making up the numbers too.

    The strength of a union is more evident to the individually less powerful, indeed that is why unions are formed.
    I agree - it is a silly dream to imagine that Scotland would not be gratefully gobbled up by the EU were it to get the chance to do so.

    Whether that would be good for Scotland is another issue entirely. Greece has already been mentioned. It is interesting to find that as late as 2007, the SNP advocated a UK-wide referendum on EU membership (from a Leave perspective). I don't discern a bedrock of affection for the EU (does any country in Europe actually like the EU?) here either.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    edited January 2021
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.

    I actually think this government has done a relatively decent job on defence compared to some of its predecessors. Ben "Swain" Wallace is definitely an upgrade over The Fireplace Salesman or S/Lt (Acting) Mordaunt.
    A comment I never thought I'd see. Maybe this is why Williamson keeps getting jobs, to make successors look good.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,620
    Foxy said:

    Good header @Dura_Ace, and thanks for keeping the jargon to a minimum.

    Have we really considered who and where our forces are ever going to fight?

    Aircraft carriers for example are only useful for fighting wars out of range of UK and Cyprus SBA range, or friendly nearby countries. It seems absurd for nearly our entire navy to be designed to protect a single carrier, which seems likely to never participate in active combat.

    Similarly the Army has a devotion to main battle tanks and heavy artillery that it is never going to be used. We are not going to be facing down Ivan on the North German plain again, or invading Iraq, and even there it was lighter, mobile forces that were needed.

    Even more so the Trident subs, everything seems oriented to fight the Cold War, despite it ending 30 years ago, rather than the counter insurgency wars, or light expeditionary service that we actually do engage in.

    Even @HYUFD with his plans to invade Wales and Scotland should surely concede that we are unlikely to want to pound Stirling Castle to rubble with heavy howitzers.

    Remember we do need to be able to send the SAS to Gibraltar and nuke Madrid.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183

    Haha was just chuckling to myself at that wonderful moment in HP when Dolores Umbridge declares,

    'I really hate children'

    Every one of us who has been involved in education knows of some teachers, inspectors and educationalists of whom that could be said.

    Off topic sadly but its day -1 before the start of term and can anyone say with certainty what the plan will be for schools tomorrow?

    We are all working from home, so teaching each class at the time they would have been taught anyway.
    The classes I’m not sure what to do with are my Y11s; they were supposed to be doing mocks this week. I’m hoping they will do them next week, but do I have a revision lesson, or should I start on the next topic?
    In your shoes, I would do revision. On the basis if the mocks don’t go ahead, neither will the exams so a new topic would be a wasted effort anyway.

    Also, for practical reasons - it’s easier to do revision than a new topic online, so it would help them ease into it; we don’t know where we’re going so familiarity brings reassurance; you can work on general things like exam technique which will do them no harm anyway.

    I am not your line manager but if I still were a Head of Faculty that’s what I’d be saying.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,262
    No school u-turn from Bozo, at least.

    "Schools are safe", he says, overlooking that it's the children bringing the virus home that isnt safe
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece DA, ever the cynic!

    I’m still not sure if “HMS Princess of Wales” is a typo or deliberate.

    A timely reminder that aside from Brexit and Coronaviruses, the world is still turning.

    I actually think this government has done a relatively decent job on defence compared to some of its predecessors. Ben "Swain" Wallace is definitely an upgrade over The Fireplace Salesman or S/Lt (Acting) Mordaunt.
    A comment I never thought I'd see. Maybe this is why Williamson keeps getting jobs, to make successors look good.
    Every cabinet has to have one. He is the modern day Chris Graying.
This discussion has been closed.