Can I just say that when - in a hundred years time - the definitive history of Brexit and its consequences is written, I doubt anyone will even find Erasmus in the index.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
To be fair it was "no, you're leaving unless you pay more".
Yeah, Barnier's crocodile tears on Erasmus were pretty nauseating given what the EU was asking us to pay. But given that about twice as many EU students came to the UK as UK students went to study in the EU, I think they've rather shot themselves in the foot.
If Britain will no longer host European research students, then we will have shot ourselves in the foot. Quite simply, it is good for us to have Euro-boffins rattling British test tubes and genome sequencing machines. Hopefully Turing (let's hope pb's sceptics don't find out they are putting him on the money) will continue to finance their work.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
To be fair it was "no, you're leaving unless you pay more".
Yeah, Barnier's crocodile tears on Erasmus were pretty nauseating given what the EU was asking us to pay. But given that about twice as many EU students came to the UK as UK students went to study in the EU, I think they've rather shot themselves in the foot.
A loss to Britain. A lot of EU students came to study in Britain and gained an affection that carried forward into their postgraduate careers. From now on they will go to Ireland, IndyScotland or North America. Our loss, not theirs.
Except Turing wil include EU students and if the EU learns to be less insular, that's a gain.
The EU insular? How? The largest trading block in the world. In what way insular?
What does its size have to do with its relations with the outside world?
Where else do you get the diversity of the EU in a single continent? 15 or 16 languages 27 quite different countries. Where? There is nowhere.
Africa? Far more countries and languages.
Name five languages, and in each case outline the principal works of literature written in it.
I could name several (Afrikaans, English, Xhosa, Zulu, Arabic and French off the top of my head) but I'm not sure I could list the principle works of literature in any of them: after all how many books in English would count?
Interesting that four of those six languages are colonial.
No mention of say, Swahili, Kikuyu or Asante (to pick three random examples).
In my defence I'm a Physics teacher, not a geographer..
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
To be fair it was "no, you're leaving unless you pay more".
Yeah, Barnier's crocodile tears on Erasmus were pretty nauseating given what the EU was asking us to pay. But given that about twice as many EU students came to the UK as UK students went to study in the EU, I think they've rather shot themselves in the foot.
A loss to Britain. A lot of EU students came to study in Britain and gained an affection that carried forward into their postgraduate careers. From now on they will go to Ireland, IndyScotland or North America. Our loss, not theirs.
Is the US and Canada covered by Erasmus?
No, but why should they choose us now?
Because we've got 3 of the top 10 universities in the world, the other 7 in the US.
If you wanted to study genomic sequencing, for example, where would you go?
If someone wants to make the argument that fewer might choose the UK I'd get the argument, but 'why should they choose us now' makes it sound like it would not make sense for anyone to want to choose us outside of Erasmus under any circumstances, which seems strange.
OK, do you think it will increase interest in studying in the UK, or reduce it?
I have no idea, but given one scheme is already established and the other not yet, I'd imagine it would reduce it at least in the short to medium term. If that was the point you wanted to make it seems easier enough to do without the 'woe is us' doommongering about why should anyone choose us.
In the short term it is the virus most impacting on international students.
The reputational damage to Britain because of Brexit will be more rust than bust. Hostility to foreigners is obvious in Farageland.
Can I just say that when - in a hundred years time - the definitive history of Brexit and its consequences is written, I doubt anyone will even find Erasmus in the index.
History as it is understood a century later is completely different to lived experience.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
To be fair it was "no, you're leaving unless you pay more".
Yeah, Barnier's crocodile tears on Erasmus were pretty nauseating given what the EU was asking us to pay. But given that about twice as many EU students came to the UK as UK students went to study in the EU, I think they've rather shot themselves in the foot.
A loss to Britain. A lot of EU students came to study in Britain and gained an affection that carried forward into their postgraduate careers. From now on they will go to Ireland, IndyScotland or North America. Our loss, not theirs.
Except Turing wil include EU students and if the EU learns to be less insular, that's a gain.
The EU insular? How? The largest trading block in the world. In what way insular?
Because they only want to do business on good terms with members of their own expensive political club. There's only 27 EU countries. There's over 200 more out there.
That's not really true: the EU has many more FTAs than - for example - the US, China, Japan, or India. I hope we'll emulate South Korea, and manage to beat the EU in terms of number and scope of deals, but I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that the EU is somehow uniquely anti-free trade, when it has a much better record than other big blocs.
I would also note, that the EU (again pretty uniquely) has entered into FTAs with a lot of poorer countries, especially in Africa.
Are they fair?
I haven't looked, but the content of .. er .. EU Fishing Agreements with West African countries has a poor record for fairness.
I imagine they're very similar to the deals poorer countries have also signed with China, Canadian and Korea regarding fishing right. Poor countries sell rights to their natural resources for very little money, shocker.
The problematic areas can be things like low tariffs on the raw product combined with high tariffs on processed value added products. Captures value add for the richer, powerful economy.
No trade agreement puts on in full control of ones laws. That's the inherent nature of any agreement, it binds one not to do certain things. If you want full control of laws, then you have to eschew international agreements.
I don't know about the exit clause: presumably there's a six or twelve month notice period if you want to leave the treaty. (EEA has one, so I'd be staggered if this didn't.)
Can I just say that when - in a hundred years time - the definitive history of Brexit and its consequences is written, I doubt anyone will even find Erasmus in the index.
History as it is understood a century later is completely different to lived experience.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
To be fair it was "no, you're leaving unless you pay more".
Yeah, Barnier's crocodile tears on Erasmus were pretty nauseating given what the EU was asking us to pay. But given that about twice as many EU students came to the UK as UK students went to study in the EU, I think they've rather shot themselves in the foot.
A loss to Britain. A lot of EU students came to study in Britain and gained an affection that carried forward into their postgraduate careers. From now on they will go to Ireland, IndyScotland or North America. Our loss, not theirs.
Except Turing wil include EU students and if the EU learns to be less insular, that's a gain.
The EU insular? How? The largest trading block in the world. In what way insular?
Because they only want to do business on good terms with members of their own expensive political club. There's only 27 EU countries. There's over 200 more out there.
That's not really true: the EU has many more FTAs than - for example - the US, China, Japan, or India. I hope we'll emulate South Korea, and manage to beat the EU in terms of number and scope of deals, but I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that the EU is somehow uniquely anti-free trade, when it has a much better record than other big blocs.
I would also note, that the EU (again pretty uniquely) has entered into FTAs with a lot of poorer countries, especially in Africa.
Are they fair?
I haven't looked, but the content of .. er .. EU Fishing Agreements with West African countries has a poor record for fairness.
I imagine they're very similar to the deals poorer countries have also signed with China, Canadian and Korea regarding fishing right. Poor countries sell rights to their natural resources for very little money, shocker.
The problematic areas can be things like low tariffs on the raw product combined with high tariffs on processed value added products. Captures value add for the richer, powerful economy.
Sort of thing Fair Trade orgs work on.
I don't know where we are these days.
"The agreement provides for asymmetric liberalisation of trade in goods. While the EU will fully open its market, the African partners can maintain tariffs on 25% of tariff lines in order to protect sensitive sectors"
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
“So it's a deal, but it's a thin deal, a deal that we were promised would be better but this deal is better than no deal at all.” - Drakeford
I keep hearing this "thin deal"...this is the new "hard Brexit".
"Thin Deal" because it introduces significant barriers to trade that didn't exist before.
Strictly speaking, Brexit reintroduces those barriers to trade and the deal doesn't remove them. The term, "Free Trade Agreement", is a misnomer because they don't deliver free trade. They are about selectively managing barriers to trade. Preferential Trade Agreement is a more accurate term. The only real free trade areas are the European Union and Cross-Tasman between Australia and New Zealand.
The EU is a Zollverein not a free trade area
In terms of the level of free trade a zero tariff area (what you call a free trade area) is less than a customs union/Zollverein, which in turn is less than a single market.
A free trade area encourages trade. A Zollverein diverts trade to benefit its members at the expense of others
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
Sigh. Always trying g to score little points. How sweet. Conversation was:
* we want to be members on the current terms * No you’re leaving the price is 3x * It isn’t worth it, bye
Thanks all for kind wishes. I will be very glad to see the end of 2020. (And in an ironic twist of fate, I must isolate until Jan 1 earliest).
Keep well. Covid-19 is a complete lottery. I saw a guy today who has antibodies but never was ill, and others that were a different story. Plenty of fluids and watch their O2 sats.
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
“So it's a deal, but it's a thin deal, a deal that we were promised would be better but this deal is better than no deal at all.” - Drakeford
I keep hearing this "thin deal"...this is the new "hard Brexit".
"Thin Deal" because it introduces significant barriers to trade that didn't exist before.
Strictly speaking, Brexit reintroduces those barriers to trade and the deal doesn't remove them. The term, "Free Trade Agreement", is a misnomer because they don't deliver free trade. They are about selectively managing barriers to trade. Preferential Trade Agreement is a more accurate term. The only real free trade areas are the European Union and Cross-Tasman between Australia and New Zealand.
The EU is a Zollverein not a free trade area
In terms of the level of free trade a zero tariff area (what you call a free trade area) is less than a customs union/Zollverein, which in turn is less than a single market.
A free trade area encourages trade. A Zollverein diverts trade to benefit its members at the expense of others
You can make the trade diversion argument about any preferential trade agreement. There's evidence that this happened with the Australia-USA FTA.
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
And found they prefer Alf Garnett...
No they found out what people like you think about them and voted Brexit. Four years on and you still don't get it.
It's quite telling that so many posts on here and on Twitter about the deal have homed in on an obscure educational exchange opportunity confined to the EU which has been replaced by one which is open to the whole world. I think Boris will be fairly content with that.
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
Sigh. Always trying g to score little points. How sweet. Conversation was:
* we want to be members on the current terms * No you’re leaving the price is 3x * It isn’t worth it, bye
Chill, if you don't want to own your own statements that's fine. We're both just randos on the internet.
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
And found they prefer Alf Garnett...
No they found out what people like you think about them and voted Brexit. Four years on and you still don't get it.
I get it. I have always been in a political minority, I am used to it.
It's quite telling that so many posts on here and on Twitter about the deal have homed in on an obscure educational exchange opportunity confined to the EU which has been replaced by one which is open to the whole world. I think Boris will be fairly content with that.
For Remainers, the EU was about education, not trade. Who knew, these past four and a half years?
It's quite telling that so many posts on here and on Twitter about the deal have homed in on an obscure educational exchange opportunity confined to the EU which has been replaced by one which is open to the whole world. I think Boris will be fairly content with that.
Well, let's see how people like it as it unravels.
All the good bits are just fragments of what we used to have. That is the simple reality. Everything else is less.
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
And found they prefer Alf Garnett...
No they found out what people like you think about them and voted Brexit. Four years on and you still don't get it.
You seem to think that it's unlikely that working class people in the north of England can yearn for Proust, Cervantes or Schiller That sounds a bit metropolitan sneery.
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
And found they prefer Alf Garnett...
No they found out what people like you think about them and voted Brexit. Four years on and you still don't get it.
You seem to think that it's unlikely that working class people in the north of England can yearn for Proust, Cervantes or Schiller That sounds a bit metropolitan sneery.
If you are trying to say that the eu appeals to people that have read proust,cervantes or schiller then you are probably talking about a fairly small percentage of the population to be fair
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
And found they prefer Alf Garnett...
No they found out what people like you think about them and voted Brexit. Four years on and you still don't get it.
You seem to think that it's unlikely that working class people in the north of England can yearn for Proust, Cervantes or Schiller That sounds a bit metropolitan sneery.
If you are trying to say that the eu appeals to people that have read proust,cervantes or schiller then you are probably talking about a fairly small percentage of the population to be fair
You should probably address that to the chap that brought up Proust, Cervantes and Schiller, not me.
I know I shouldn't react to it, but I just cannot believe the cringyness of reactions like that of Adonis. Seriously, does he think no one in British political life uses quotations?
It's no good someone to suggest it might mean that in general the European body politic is so much more classy and civilised, since he is using that specific example as demonstrative of it, and it is a nice sentiment but entirely unexceptional behaviour. A 5 second google search can find you Jacob Rees-Mogg quoting Shakespeare, I'm sure that will convince Nats they could never leave such a civilised nation as ther UK, for example.
And if it is about being courteous, that was lovely from UvdL and Boris is typically more of a boor, but it's just pathetic to act like the defining element of Europe is courteous politics and it's unheard of here.
It's cultural cringe.
No Adonis is appealing directly to the Red Wall - he went on a tour don't you know so he knows how much they yearn for Proust, Cervantes, Schiller.......
And found they prefer Alf Garnett...
No they found out what people like you think about them and voted Brexit. Four years on and you still don't get it.
You seem to think that it's unlikely that working class people in the north of England can yearn for Proust, Cervantes or Schiller That sounds a bit metropolitan sneery.
If you are trying to say that the eu appeals to people that have read proust,cervantes or schiller then you are probably talking about a fairly small percentage of the population to be fair
You should probably address that to the chap that brought up Proust, Cervantes and Schiller, not me.
Fair enough I did miss the original poster about it and didnt uncollapse the quotes so only saw your reference. I also don't see that leaving the EU means they are banned from reading any of them....besides most of the great works were penned both from europe and the uk long before the eu was an embryo idea. We lose no access to those by leaving the eu
Perhaps it was inevitable, perhaps it was all down to Johnson's incredible negotiating and politicing skills. Who knows, who cares? The important thing is that chaos on January 1st has, we hope, largely been avoided.
Do we know when the text of the agreement will be published?
I think my diet is going to take a hell of a beating over the next few days
Currently 8kg down - my doctor can no longer describe me as a "bit cuddly!"
One positive from this awful year I guess
That's good going! I shifted 30kg last year, and I know it's hard work.
One can't be "good" all the time. Give yourself a few days off, then jump back on the wagon. Keep the lifestyle changes up, and in the long run you'll be fine.
I think my diet is going to take a hell of a beating over the next few days
Currently 8kg down - my doctor can no longer describe me as a "bit cuddly!"
One positive from this awful year I guess
That's good going! I shifted 30kg last year, and I know it's hard work.
One can't be "good" all the time. Give yourself a few days off, then jump back on the wagon. Keep the lifestyle changes up, and in the long run you'll be fine.
blinks 8kg is 12.5% of my body weight if I lost 30kg I would look like an inmate from belsen
So I take it given how happy Boris is that we got tariff free access for Services then?
Yes, that's the dog that hasn't quite barked (yet). The EU runs a huge surplus in trade in goods with the UK, and has secured an agreement that preserves the circumstances that have led to that position. That huge surplus has to a degree offset by trade in services, particularly financial services where the UK has a substantial surplus, on which the agreement is pretty well silent.
In those circumstances, the exit clauses become quite important. Could the UK choose to threaten to walk away from the whole agreement if, in the course of time, the EU decides to play silly buggers in order to compromise our financial services industry?
I think leaving Erasmus is a real shame and something a lot of young people will really find very bemusing about why it's gone.
We all need to go ahead together and that means moving past Brexit but I can't help but feel as usual with the Tories anyone young just gets ignored in whatever they do.
Agreed, that is a particularly sad casualty. I don't think Brexit has done the Torys any favours with younger voters. But maybe the sad truth is they don't need them, and don't need to give a shit, especially now Labour is done for in Scotland.
Are we definitely leaving Erasmus? I heard they were still discussing that?
Whatever the deal, it now gives grown-ups the chance to opt back in to various schemes like Erasmus. It should be a no-brainer.
We wanted to. The EU said no, you’re leaving, despite the fact that plenty of non EU members are part of the scheme
I think they tripled the price (to the Associate Member rate) and the U.K. said it wasn’t worth it, they could do it themselves. Entirely reasonable - we have several of these schemes already and there is nothing intrinsically special about Erasmus
Ah, so we've moved on from *checks notes* 'The EU said no, you’re leaving'. Glad we've cleared that up.
To be fair it was "no, you're leaving unless you pay more".
Yeah, Barnier's crocodile tears on Erasmus were pretty nauseating given what the EU was asking us to pay. But given that about twice as many EU students came to the UK as UK students went to study in the EU, I think they've rather shot themselves in the foot.
A loss to Britain. A lot of EU students came to study in Britain and gained an affection that carried forward into their postgraduate careers. From now on they will go to Ireland, IndyScotland or North America. Our loss, not theirs.
Except Turing wil include EU students and if the EU learns to be less insular, that's a gain.
The EU insular? How? The largest trading block in the world. In what way insular?
Because they only want to do business on good terms with members of their own expensive political club. There's only 27 EU countries. There's over 200 more out there.
That's not really true: the EU has many more FTAs than - for example - the US, China, Japan, or India. I hope we'll emulate South Korea, and manage to beat the EU in terms of number and scope of deals, but I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that the EU is somehow uniquely anti-free trade, when it has a much better record than other big blocs.
I would also note, that the EU (again pretty uniquely) has entered into FTAs with a lot of poorer countries, especially in Africa.
Are they fair?
I haven't looked, but the content of .. er .. EU Fishing Agreements with West African countries has a poor record for fairness.
I imagine they're very similar to the deals poorer countries have also signed with China, Canadian and Korea regarding fishing right. Poor countries sell rights to their natural resources for very little money, shocker.
The problematic areas can be things like low tariffs on the raw product combined with high tariffs on processed value added products. Captures value add for the richer, powerful economy.
Sort of thing Fair Trade orgs work on.
I don't know where we are these days.
"The agreement provides for asymmetric liberalisation of trade in goods. While the EU will fully open its market, the African partners can maintain tariffs on 25% of tariff lines in order to protect sensitive sectors"
I think that one is not even in force provisionally yet, having been started in 2003.
Apologies to anyone who may go without me 'liking' their posts for a while - I've had to disable JavaScript as Vanilla had become unusable on my phone. I will try to find a less nuclear solution in due course.
In other Vanilla gripes, have you ever been told a post is too short?? Not impressed, especially as I could have mindlessly copied and pasted a tweet which would presumably have met the length requirement!
Well with a Brexit trade deal done and vaccines being rolled out I guess Bozo can now concentrate full time on his mid-life crisis and hand over to a new PM by the summer.
So I take it given how happy Boris is that we got tariff free access for Services then?
Yes, that's the dog that hasn't quite barked (yet). The EU runs a huge surplus in trade in goods with the UK, and has secured an agreement that preserves the circumstances that have led to that position. That huge surplus has to a degree offset by trade in services, particularly financial services where the UK has a substantial surplus, on which the agreement is pretty well silent.
In those circumstances, the exit clauses become quite important. Could the UK choose to threaten to walk away from the whole agreement if, in the course of time, the EU decides to play silly buggers in order to compromise our financial services industry?
So I take it given how happy Boris is that we got tariff free access for Services then?
Yes, that's the dog that hasn't quite barked (yet). The EU runs a huge surplus in trade in goods with the UK, and has secured an agreement that preserves the circumstances that have led to that position. That huge surplus has to a degree offset by trade in services, particularly financial services where the UK has a substantial surplus, on which the agreement is pretty well silent.
In those circumstances, the exit clauses become quite important. Could the UK choose to threaten to walk away from the whole agreement if, in the course of time, the EU decides to play silly buggers in order to compromise our financial services industry?
It's quite telling that so many posts on here and on Twitter about the deal have homed in on an obscure educational exchange opportunity confined to the EU which has been replaced by one which is open to the whole world. I think Boris will be fairly content with that.
For Remainers, the EU was about education, not trade. Who knew, these past four and a half years?
Erasmus is a disappointing loss. My wife enjoyed the benefits of the Erasmus programme at University in Parma.
As you know I am a vile scumbag filth Remainer, so I suspect I can speak for Remainers, perhaps more than you can.
The EU is a corrupt leviathan that few of us loved with any particular enthusiasm. Indeed, trade is key and a tariff free arrangement is preferable to no deal, I believe we had a greater advantage inside rather than out, but I would say that wouldn't I.
For me freedom of movement was a big benefit personally now lost. I am not in the mood to list everything else I preferred in than out, but the list is not insubstantial.
You won, I lost! Well done. Johnson won, although he in reality, isn't any less a Euro enthusiast than I am. However his pretence has made him Prime Minister and is currently enjoying the adulation of his magnificent victory. A victory in time I believe will cost our nation dearly
Today is a sad day for me, but I accept my defeat. True, I am an unpatriotic former Remainer traitor, but I am sucking it up. Enjoy!
So I take it given how happy Boris is that we got tariff free access for Services then?
No tariffs on services. I've been through this a few times, international rules and governance on services trade is a wild west. Mutual recognition of qualifications is probably the major issue but a lot of that is still reserved to national governments as even within the EU there is huge disagreement on this.
The Deal gives me an overwhelming feeling of relief even though I don't know the details and am sure there is a lot of bad stuff in the details. We can at last move on! Well done Boris and team!
Pleased to report my relative has tested negative. Although he wasn't feeling well this evening so possible he is developing symptoms - fingers crossed it is something else.
The blue pet passport with its yellow EU stars on the front will remain valid for entering (returning to) the UK but not for entering the EU, which is a strange outcome.
Pleased to report my relative has tested negative. Although he wasn't feeling well this evening so possible he is developing symptoms - fingers crossed it is something else.
Goodnight all.
Good news. Easy to forget that there are other bugs around, and at the moment less than 1 in 10 Covid tests is positive. Hope they recover swiftly. Wife and I had a Christmas stinky cold a few years ago. Not fun.
So we now have zero tariffs and quotas with the EU. What are we gonna do about tariffs on imports from other countries? Surely not keep the CET (Common External Tariff) of the EU! Abolish them all Boris! Or does that somehow compromise the FTAs Truss has got?
So we now have zero tariffs and quotas with the EU. What are we gonna do about tariffs on imports from other countries? Surely not keep the CET (Common External Tariff) of the EU! Abolish them all Boris! Or does that somehow compromise the FTAs Truss has got?
That's a very good question.
But can I point you to South Korea, as the poster child for the opposite approach. South Korea has very high external tariffs, but is extremely open to FTAs.
They are therefore the only country to have managed to sign them with Japan, india, the US, the EU and Australia.
It's quite telling that so many posts on here and on Twitter about the deal have homed in on an obscure educational exchange opportunity confined to the EU which has been replaced by one which is open to the whole world. I think Boris will be fairly content with that.
For Remainers, the EU was about education, not trade. Who knew, these past four and a half years?
Erasmus is a disappointing loss. My wife enjoyed the benefits of the Erasmus programme at University in Parma.
As you know I am a vile scumbag filth Remainer, so I suspect I can speak for Remainers, perhaps more than you can.
The EU is a corrupt leviathan that few of us loved with any particular enthusiasm. Indeed, trade is key and a tariff free arrangement is preferable to no deal, I believe we had a greater advantage inside rather than out, but I would say that wouldn't I.
For me freedom of movement was a big benefit personally now lost. I am not in the mood to list everything else I preferred in than out, but the list is not insubstantial.
You won, I lost! Well done. Johnson won, although he in reality, isn't any less a Euro enthusiast than I am. However his pretence has made him Prime Minister and is currently enjoying the adulation of his magnificent victory. A victory in time I believe will cost our nation dearly
Today is a sad day for me, but I accept my defeat. True, I am an unpatriotic former Remainer traitor, but I am sucking it up. Enjoy!
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
"Johnson won, although he in reality, isn't any less a Euro enthusiast than I am."
Freed from having to tag along with Brussels' determination to form a nation state and all that entails, I reckon Boris will get along with the EU rather well. There's no mileage in antagonising them further - and plenty of opportunities to build trust. We could have a rather mature relationship by the time of the next election. Expect surprises from Boris now Brexit is delivered!
Not sure where that will put Remainers. I genuinely think the EU will be very largely neutralised as an issue by 2024, because we will have a grown up arrangement. You should have good reason not to see today as a disaster. I hope that to be true anyway.
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours too.
Pleased to report my relative has tested negative. Although he wasn't feeling well this evening so possible he is developing symptoms - fingers crossed it is something else.
Goodnight all.
Good news. Easy to forget that there are other bugs around, and at the moment less than 1 in 10 Covid tests is positive. Hope they recover swiftly. Wife and I had a Christmas stinky cold a few years ago. Not fun.
One year we both had full-on flu at Christmas. Our Christmas dinner was a bowl of soup. (AKA 'Hot broth')
On that cheerful note, time to turn in and wait for Santa to visit.
I think my diet is going to take a hell of a beating over the next few days
Currently 8kg down - my doctor can no longer describe me as a "bit cuddly!"
One positive from this awful year I guess
That's good going! I shifted 30kg last year, and I know it's hard work.
One can't be "good" all the time. Give yourself a few days off, then jump back on the wagon. Keep the lifestyle changes up, and in the long run you'll be fine.
blinks 8kg is 12.5% of my body weight if I lost 30kg I would look like an inmate from belsen
I was 90.55 down to 82.50
I need to get down to below 80 to not be classed as overweight - I was knocking on the door of the next category up which not smart as a male in his 50's in this brave new world.
So we now have zero tariffs and quotas with the EU. What are we gonna do about tariffs on imports from other countries? Surely not keep the CET (Common External Tariff) of the EU! Abolish them all Boris! Or does that somehow compromise the FTAs Truss has got?
That's a very good question.
But can I point you to South Korea, as the poster child for the opposite approach. South Korea has very high external tariffs, but is extremely open to FTAs.
They are therefore the only country to have managed to sign them with Japan, india, the US, the EU and Australia.
Well surely if you have high tarrifs there is a much stronger reason for counter parties to want an FTA? If you already have no tarrifs then why should they bother?
So we now have zero tariffs and quotas with the EU. What are we gonna do about tariffs on imports from other countries? Surely not keep the CET (Common External Tariff) of the EU! Abolish them all Boris! Or does that somehow compromise the FTAs Truss has got?
That's a very good question.
But can I point you to South Korea, as the poster child for the opposite approach. South Korea has very high external tariffs, but is extremely open to FTAs.
They are therefore the only country to have managed to sign them with Japan, india, the US, the EU and Australia.
Yes, there's a big incentive to get behind the tariff wall with an FTA. But SKorea has a different attitude to industrial protection and consumer welfare from that of the UK which is historically a (or the) leading advocate of free trade. SK's historical stance on protection can be justified in terms of the "infant industry" argument. But it is no longer in that state, being nowadays an advanced industrial nation. As far as its consumers are concerned it has, shall we say, an oriental view of their well-being.
So we now have zero tariffs and quotas with the EU. What are we gonna do about tariffs on imports from other countries? Surely not keep the CET (Common External Tariff) of the EU! Abolish them all Boris! Or does that somehow compromise the FTAs Truss has got?
That's a very good question.
But can I point you to South Korea, as the poster child for the opposite approach. South Korea has very high external tariffs, but is extremely open to FTAs.
They are therefore the only country to have managed to sign them with Japan, india, the US, the EU and Australia.
No inconsistency between high tariffs and managing to negotiate plenty of FTAs - quite the opposite in fact.
Comments
https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1341981271489208325
https://twitter.com/GLAChristina/status/1342158076611334145?s=20
The wife, suffering aches and pains, was confirmed as Covid positive at 5pm. She has taken to bed.
I think the 18 month yo has it too.
Merry Xmas!
(For the avoidance of doubt, I just made that up.)
The reputational damage to Britain because of Brexit will be more rust than bust. Hostility to foreigners is obvious in Farageland.
Merry christmas
Sort of thing Fair Trade orgs work on.
I don't know where we are these days.
I don't know about the exit clause: presumably there's a six or twelve month notice period if you want to leave the treaty. (EEA has one, so I'd be staggered if this didn't.)
I think I heard "4 inspections a day" on R4, which is very small compared to daily traffic of thousands of commercial vehicles.
But may have misheard.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
I will be very glad to see the end of 2020.
(And in an ironic twist of fate, I must isolate until Jan 1 earliest).
* we want to be members on the current terms
* No you’re leaving the price is 3x
* It isn’t worth it, bye
https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/the-costs-of-australias-free-trade-agreement-with-america/
That's not very Christmassy, Mr Gruber!
May your good lady and young one recover soon
All the good bits are just fragments of what we used to have. That is the simple reality. Everything else is less.
Top of page 5 for seed potato predictions.
May god bless us, one and all x
https://twitter.com/PaulJSweeney/status/1342140453072887808?s=20
Time's arrow says otherwise....
Perhaps it was inevitable, perhaps it was all down to Johnson's incredible negotiating and politicing skills. Who knows, who cares? The important thing is that chaos on January 1st has, we hope, largely been avoided.
Do we know when the text of the agreement will be published?
Stay safe and go easy on the Quality Street.
(I've already started on the Ferrero Rocher.)
Currently 8kg down - my doctor can no longer describe me as a "bit cuddly!"
One positive from this awful year I guess
Middle-aged colleagues of mine had it, and the only symptom was loss of taste.
In fact, all the people I know who had it have suffered mild symptoms & made very speedy recoveries.
I hope this also will be true chez Gardenwalker.
Special best of luck to @Gardenwalker and family.
One can't be "good" all the time. Give yourself a few days off, then jump back on the wagon. Keep the lifestyle changes up, and in the long run you'll be fine.
Can we run it more efficiently than the entry fee that the EU is proposing to charge us to join Erasmus ?
Having seen some of the profligate waste in Brussel at first hand, I bet we can, but let's see.
In those circumstances, the exit clauses become quite important. Could the UK choose to threaten to walk away from the whole agreement if, in the course of time, the EU decides to play silly buggers in order to compromise our financial services industry?
And that one applies far less liberalisation to eg prepared fish over raw fish.
https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2017/november/tradoc_156409.pdf
All the best for you & yours, and a quick and full recovery to all victims of COVID, whom ever, where ever, how ever.
As for PBers, may your Yule logs burn bright, may your predictions be confirmed (more or less) AND may your betting be better than average!
In other Vanilla gripes, have you ever been told a post is too short?? Not impressed, especially as I could have mindlessly copied and pasted a tweet which would presumably have met the length requirement!
I didn't think anything other than nuking Paris could make him happy?
As you know I am a vile scumbag filth Remainer, so I suspect I can speak for Remainers, perhaps more than you can.
The EU is a corrupt leviathan that few of us loved with any particular enthusiasm. Indeed, trade is key and a tariff free arrangement is preferable to no deal, I believe we had a greater advantage inside rather than out, but I would say that wouldn't I.
For me freedom of movement was a big benefit personally now lost. I am not in the mood to list everything else I preferred in than out, but the list is not insubstantial.
You won, I lost! Well done. Johnson won, although he in reality, isn't any less a Euro enthusiast than I am. However his pretence has made him Prime Minister and is currently enjoying the adulation of his magnificent victory. A victory in time I believe will cost our nation dearly
Today is a sad day for me, but I accept my defeat. True, I am an unpatriotic former Remainer traitor, but I am sucking it up. Enjoy!
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Goodnight all.
Democracy, Tory Style
Tyranny defined: One man, London appointed, with more power over Scotland that the entire electorate combined.
https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1342108230714064897
But can I point you to South Korea, as the poster child for the opposite approach. South Korea has very high external tariffs, but is extremely open to FTAs.
They are therefore the only country to have managed to sign them with Japan, india, the US, the EU and Australia.
Freed from having to tag along with Brussels' determination to form a nation state and all that entails, I reckon Boris will get along with the EU rather well. There's no mileage in antagonising them further - and plenty of opportunities to build trust. We could have a rather mature relationship by the time of the next election. Expect surprises from Boris now Brexit is delivered!
Not sure where that will put Remainers. I genuinely think the EU will be very largely neutralised as an issue by 2024, because we will have a grown up arrangement. You should have good reason not to see today as a disaster. I hope that to be true anyway.
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours too.
On that cheerful note, time to turn in and wait for Santa to visit.
Night all.
I need to get down to below 80 to not be classed as overweight - I was knocking on the door of the next category up which not smart as a male in his 50's in this brave new world.
Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night.
SK's historical stance on protection can be justified in terms of the "infant industry" argument. But it is no longer in that state, being nowadays an advanced industrial nation. As far as its consumers are concerned it has, shall we say, an oriental view of their well-being.
edited to disambiguate
https://twitter.com/ScotsGaelicfor/status/1342248297621319686?s=20