Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
The SNP majority next year is nailed on
Not after this news it isn't, the previous polls were with the presumption of No Deal, add in Unionist tactical voting too and Sturgeon risks disaster next year a la May 2017
To be honest you are misleading yourself on this one
Sturgeon like May pre 2017 has built up a huge poll lead so anything less than a landslide SNP majority next year will now be a humiliation for her, as the failure to win a Tory landslide and the loss of her majority was for May in 2017.
George Mason, 1787... (The president) “ought not to have the power of pardoning, because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen, at some future day, that he will establish a monarchy, and destroy the republic. If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment, or conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection?”
James Madison: “ There is one security in this case to which the gentlemen not have adverted: If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him (with a pardon), the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty.”
That worked out well.
The Founding Fathers were, in many ways, utter morons.
When did the senate gain the power to remove from the House ? The first senate wasn't convened till 1789. Furthermore when was a supermajority required - only a question. Perhaps I'm missing something from Madison here.
Oh Lord - found it - Art 1 of the const.
The constitution's framers vested the Senate with this power for several reasons. First, they believed senators would be better educated, more virtuous, and more high-minded than members of the House of Representatives and thus uniquely able to decide responsibly the most difficult of political questions. Second, they believed that the Senate, being a numerous body, would be well suited to handle the procedural demands of an impeachment trial, in which it, unlike judges and the judiciary system, would "never be tied down by such strict rules, either in the delineation of the offense by the prosecutor, or in the construction of it by judges, as in the common cases serve to limit the discretion of courts in favor of personal security." (Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist No. 65).
Looks like Hamilton didn't anticipate the combination of the modern day GOP and Trump. Anyway they have the power, the GOP owns all these pardons now. You'd hope they'd be punished at the ballot box for their nonsense.
Until the 17th ammendment in 1913, Senators were appointed by state legislatures rather than elected*, so as originally envisaged Senators were quite likely to be a level above Representatives.
*by 1913 many states had already switched to this, with the state legislatures a rubber stamp exercise.
Lol - With the GOP gerrymandering in red states that would have been even worse.
Good morning, fellow surrenderers and capitulators.
Morning Casino. Speak for yourself; I shall nurture my resentments.
I expect to see Remainers painting the EU flag on the end of their houses for the next three hundred years. If it is good enough to carry on the fight in Northern Ireland.....
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Good morning (again). Now back from standing in the freezing cold queuing for Mrs C and my January meals; the free-range turkey which when originally ordered was expected to be required for six, and will now, thanks to Covid, be for two. Note from the previous thread that there was an outage with vanilla; glad it wasn't just me, and delighted that Pb is back. On the big news of the day, I will believe our PM has got a deal when he's signed it. Preferably in his own blood. He's thoroughly unreliable and untrustworthy; I suspect that the need for ironclad guarantees from the British side is what has been delaying the EU's people.
I'm wondering if it's now at the stage where he has to sign it regardless of any outstanding issues.
Given today's press, I don't see how he can explain a failure to close out the deal now.
Was thinking that - this morning's papers give the EU a colossal amount of leverage over the final "i"s being dotted and "t"s crossed.
Good morning, fellow surrenderers and capitulators.
Morning Casino. Speak for yourself; I shall nurture my resentments.
I expect to see Remainers painting the EU flag on the end of their houses for the next three hundred years. If it is good enough to carry on the fight in Northern Ireland.....
You obviously just saw Dominic Grieve on Sky News then :-)
Good morning, fellow surrenderers and capitulators.
Morning Casino. Speak for yourself; I shall nurture my resentments.
I expect to see Remainers painting the EU flag on the end of their houses for the next three hundred years. If it is good enough to carry on the fight in Northern Ireland.....
There’s quite the history of Presidents handing out pardons like confetti to some shady characters on their way out of the door. Clinton gave over 140 pardons on the day he left office, including his half brother for cocaine dealing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton
The lack of limitations on that power, if it must exist at all, is a disgrace. Many reasonable pardons and commutations undermined by crony rewards.
Good morning, fellow surrenderers and capitulators.
Morning Casino. Speak for yourself; I shall nurture my resentments.
I expect to see Remainers painting the EU flag on the end of their houses for the next three hundred years. If it is good enough to carry on the fight in Northern Ireland.....
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
As MaxPB point out, it was a symbolic sacrifice. That it uniquely affects Scotland, intentionally or just carelessly, is the point. A relatively minor one (unless you work in that particular industry), but it reinforces the narrative.
Even these tiny "victories" will eventually be incorporated into the deal when people have stopped paying attention. Right now both the UK and EU need to sell this politically because the economics of no deal are pretty awful. Once the need for that political win goes away, the minor issues get settled with a few 2am press releases that nobody notices.
Really the next big step for both sides will be customs measures and a trusted traders scheme that covers 98-99% of UK/EU trade virtually eliminating the customs border as we are going to do for the vast majority of GB/NI trade.
Fingers crossed. But as you point out, it was a symbol with a purpose - but it was also a symbol of the US government’s attitude to Scotland. These things have an effect larger than the economic realities.
Presume 'US government’s' wasn't intentional? Even under Trump, I doubt the federal government would have been so slipshod over state agri interests. Actually, especially under Trump, I'm told he's the farmer's friend, particularly by Trumpers.
From a Remainer point of view? Remain is not an option. It's either this Deal or No Deal.
From a Brexiteer point of view? There are Labour MPs who want to Brexit with No Deal? Who are they are? And how does No Deal help their constituents?
Because it appears to be a poor deal (unless one believes Guido).
Abstention allows the deal to go through without confirmation.
In twelve months time,
Starmer: "The trade deal has proven to be a failure, all the car manufacturers have moved to mainland Europe"
Johnson: " Well it's your fault, you supported the deal".
Quite. Even in a great deal there will be things like that. Abstention can be overdone, but it means he cannot credibly be said to be trying to block anything, nor imply consequences are shared by him.
Good morning, fellow surrenderers and capitulators.
Morning Casino. Speak for yourself; I shall nurture my resentments.
I expect to see Remainers painting the EU flag on the end of their houses for the next three hundred years. If it is good enough to carry on the fight in Northern Ireland.....
Good morning, fellow surrenderers and capitulators.
Morning Casino. Speak for yourself; I shall nurture my resentments.
I expect to see Remainers painting the EU flag on the end of their houses for the next three hundred years. If it is good enough to carry on the fight in Northern Ireland.....
To be fair, Brexiteers of all stripes - from Tony Benn to Enoch Powell spent every moment trying to drag us out after we joined the common market. There was no accepting the result there.
What's more likely to happen is that a the folly of Brexit becomes clear and it's the incumbent, and the generation who it's been foisted upon by their elders gain power, we gradually sign up to stuff that draws us back in without the flag stuff, and we tilt back in the direction of reason and good sense, while those who become the Guilty Men of Brexit, viewed as this generation's Chamberlains and Halifax's are tainted and we gradually get our country back.
How about a two week extension so parliament can scrutinise the whole thing?
Nah, bounce it through and read it later. It's the British way...
The last time we ended up with a border down the Irish Sea. Someone had better take a close look at it, or it'll turn out that we've ceded Kent to the French or something.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
As MaxPB point out, it was a symbolic sacrifice. That it uniquely affects Scotland, intentionally or just carelessly, is the point. A relatively minor one (unless you work in that particular industry), but it reinforces the narrative.
Even these tiny "victories" will eventually be incorporated into the deal when people have stopped paying attention. Right now both the UK and EU need to sell this politically because the economics of no deal are pretty awful. Once the need for that political win goes away, the minor issues get settled with a few 2am press releases that nobody notices.
Really the next big step for both sides will be customs measures and a trusted traders scheme that covers 98-99% of UK/EU trade virtually eliminating the customs border as we are going to do for the vast majority of GB/NI trade.
Fingers crossed. But as you point out, it was a symbol with a purpose - but it was also a symbol of the US government’s attitude to Scotland. These things have an effect larger than the economic realities.
Presume 'US government’s' wasn't intentional? Even under Trump, I doubt the federal government would have been so slipshod over state agri interests. Actually, especially under Trump, I'm told he's the farmer's friend, particularly by Trumpers.
How about a two week extension so parliament can scrutinise the whole thing?
Would the EU even go for that? I know Boris would not care to ask, but the Commission doesn't seem to care about its side reading it either.
The Commission just wants this off its desk... It has significant problems trying to deal with current members and the legacy issues of a former member are an increasingly low priority.
Mr. Starry, you're a former No voter who thinks the SNP should've had an influence on the negotiations?
Foreign policy isn't and cannot be devolved.
Doesn't matter the Party in charge. If a country's government is completely excluded and it's voice unheard, despite an overwhelming vote from its electorate, then the political union cannot stand.
So, deal. Wahay. A good deal compared to no deal, a bad deal compared to membership, but since neither of those were on the table let’s just call it the deal. The substance is what it was always going to be, given the macro economic and political imperatives of the 2 sides. FOM ends and we start to take back our fish. Those were our red lines. The EU protects the integrity of their SM. We can diverge from LPF but at a price. That was their red line.
It’s positive news, here on Christmas Eve, but I will be a trifle disappointed if I see lots of “relief” being expressed. A recurring theme of my Brexit postings over the piece has been to share the insight that the insanity on every level of “WTO” Brexit was never a real world option for the UK. It was a near 0% probability outcome under any PM other than a genuine hardcore BritNat such as a Redwood or a Cash. Or of course the man himself, the Big Daddy of Brexit, Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson is not such an individual. He is not a genuine hardcore anything except opportunist. He was never going to pull the pin on the no deal grenade. He has an 80 seat majority won on the basis of getting Brexit done with a trade deal. It’s come very very late partly because that’s how things go – they expand to fill the time available – but mainly because it works politically for Johnson. This is deemed more important than the anxiety and chaos caused.
The ‘last minute’ aspect works for him domestically in a number of ways. (i) An atmosphere of relief, fed by all the no deal hyping, is conducive to selling the deal. (ii) It provides the optics of “Boris battling to the wire for Britain”. See today’s softhead tabloids for the early fruits of this. (iii) It makes detailed prolonged examination of the deal pre-implementation impossible. This last, I think, is a particular boon. This is not a PM who relishes scrutiny and debate.
How about a two week extension so parliament can scrutinise the whole thing?
Nah, bounce it through and read it later. It's the British way...
The last time we ended up with a border down the Irish Sea. Someone had better take a close look at it, or it'll turn out that we've ceded Kent to the French or something.
I'm not sure the French would want all of Kent; parts maybe but not all.
So, deal. Wahay. A good deal compared to no deal, a bad deal compared to membership, but since neither of those were on the table let’s just call it the deal. The substance is what it was always going to be, given the macro economic and political imperatives of the 2 sides. FOM ends and we start to take back our fish. Those were our red lines. The EU protects the integrity of their SM. We can diverge from LPF but at a price. That was their red line.
It’s positive news, here on Christmas Eve, but I will be a trifle disappointed if I see lots of “relief” being expressed. A recurring theme of my Brexit postings over the piece has been to share the insight that the insanity on every level of “WTO” Brexit was never a real world option for the UK. It was a near 0% probability outcome under any PM other than a genuine hardcore BritNat such as a Redwood or a Cash. Or of course the man himself, the Big Daddy of Brexit, Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson is not such an individual. He is not a genuine hardcore anything except opportunist. He was never going to pull the pin on the no deal grenade. He has an 80 seat majority won on the basis of getting Brexit done with a trade deal. It’s come very very late partly because that’s how things go – they expand to fill the time available – but mainly because it works politically for Johnson. This is deemed more important than the anxiety and chaos caused.
The ‘last minute’ aspect works for him domestically in a number of ways. (i) An atmosphere of relief, fed by all the no deal hyping, is conducive to selling the deal. (ii) It provides the optics of “Boris battling to the wire for Britain”. See today’s softhead tabloids for the early fruits of this. (iii) It makes detailed prolonged examination of the deal pre-implementation impossible. This last, I think, is a particular boon. This is not a PM who relishes scrutiny and debate.
I'm getting a little concerned locally re the vaccine. My father who is 94 called his surgery (a large surgery). They apparently have no plans whatever to vaccinate anybody currently. No idea what is going on.
It's gradually winding up here, with more surgeries and health centres coming on stream. My in-laws (both late 80s) have just been given a date of 5th Jan for the first jab.
Nothing yet on the local surgery website. The CCG website talks about '4 more surgeries' going the roll-out, but nothing local. The website appears to cover all Essex except Colcheter & the NE, and the NW (Saffron Walden area).
How about a two week extension so parliament can scrutinise the whole thing?
Would the EU even go for that? I know Boris would not care to ask, but the Commission doesn't seem to care about its side reading it either.
The Commission just wants this off its desk... It has significant problems trying to deal with current members and the legacy issues of a former member are an increasingly low priority.
I dont see what that has to do with the principle of those behind the government/commission having the chance to read it.
Boris might well claim the UK has significant problems trying to deal with its current members and the legacy issues involving the EU are an increasingly low priority.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Retruning to the seed potatoes, remember that
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds) (b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union (c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French (d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party (e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
Mr. Starry, you're a former No voter who thinks the SNP should've had an influence on the negotiations?
Foreign policy isn't and cannot be devolved.
Doesn't matter the Party in charge. If a country's government is completely excluded and it's voice unheard, despite an overwhelming vote from its electorate, then the political union cannot stand.
Scotland's sovereign government is Westminster and has been since 1707 as confirmed in the once in a generation 2014 vote.
Holyrood correctly is purely for domestic matters within Scotland
Boris is determined to make everyone's Christmas as miserable as possible by announcing a deal, and setting leaver against remainer for ever and a day.
The die hard remainers and leavers may want to continue their battles but the vast majority will move on
If you believe something is right you don't change your mind just because 52% voted for something else.
Like many remainers I know I am resigned to the fact that we currently live in a nation where Boris, Farage and Brexiteers hold sway but nothing I have seen over the last 4 years has caused me to think they might be right.
I simply feel detached from where we go from here, I'm content to let the Brexiteers get on with it, I really don't have a dog in the fight anymore.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Retruning to the seed potatoes, remember that
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds) (b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union (c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French (d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party (e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
Less than 1% of Scots work in seed potatoes, it shows the utter desperation of Nationalists that they can only find this issue to whinge about and even then the UK government is still pressing for its inclusion too.
Today is a disastrous day for Sturgeon and a triumphant day for Boris
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
The SNP majority next year is nailed on
Not after this news it isn't, the previous polls were with the presumption of No Deal, add in Unionist tactical voting too and Sturgeon risks disaster next year a la May 2017
To be honest you are misleading yourself on this one
Sturgeon like May pre 2017 has built up a huge poll lead so anything less than a landslide SNP majority next year will now be a humiliation for her, as the failure to win a Tory landslide and the loss of her majority was for May in 2017.
The narrative has been set
Eh? On that logic, Mr Johnson's last GE was a howling disaster and defeat.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
The SNP majority next year is nailed on
Not after this news it isn't, the previous polls were with the presumption of No Deal, add in Unionist tactical voting too and Sturgeon risks disaster next year a la May 2017
To be honest you are misleading yourself on this one
Sturgeon like May pre 2017 has built up a huge poll lead so anything less than a landslide SNP majority next year will now be a humiliation for her, as the failure to win a Tory landslide and the loss of her majority was for May in 2017.
The narrative has been set
Eh? On that logic, Mr Johnson's last GE was a howling disaster and defeat.
Far from it, it was an 80 seat Tory landslide majority.
If Sturgeon cannot even match the SNP majority Salmond won in 2011 next year she will be utterly humiliated
How about a two week extension so parliament can scrutinise the whole thing?
Would the EU even go for that? I know Boris would not care to ask, but the Commission doesn't seem to care about its side reading it either.
Probably because they wrote it
I dont follow this. I'm to believe the governments of all the EU nations and the EU parliament all know all the details, that's why its ok if the Commission is as cavalier as Boris on leaving things to the last minute meaning no time for those who want to read it to do so?
So, deal. Wahay. A good deal compared to no deal, a bad deal compared to membership, but since neither of those were on the table let’s just call it the deal. The substance is what it was always going to be, given the macro economic and political imperatives of the 2 sides. FOM ends and we start to take back our fish. Those were our red lines. The EU protects the integrity of their SM. We can diverge from LPF but at a price. That was their red line.
It’s positive news, here on Christmas Eve, but I will be a trifle disappointed if I see lots of “relief” being expressed. A recurring theme of my Brexit postings over the piece has been to share the insight that the insanity on every level of “WTO” Brexit was never a real world option for the UK. It was a near 0% probability outcome under any PM other than a genuine hardcore BritNat such as a Redwood or a Cash. Or of course the man himself, the Big Daddy of Brexit, Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson is not such an individual. He is not a genuine hardcore anything except opportunist. He was never going to pull the pin on the no deal grenade. He has an 80 seat majority won on the basis of getting Brexit done with a trade deal. It’s come very very late partly because that’s how things go – they expand to fill the time available – but mainly because it works politically for Johnson. This is deemed more important than the anxiety and chaos caused.
The ‘last minute’ aspect works for him domestically in a number of ways. (i) An atmosphere of relief, fed by all the no deal hyping, is conducive to selling the deal. (ii) It provides the optics of “Boris battling to the wire for Britain”. See today’s softhead tabloids for the early fruits of this. (iii) It makes detailed prolonged examination of the deal pre-implementation impossible. This last, I think, is a particular boon. This is not a PM who relishes scrutiny and debate.
Cheers.
It still amazes me that this is the end point.
Back in 2016 it was widely assumed that membership of the SM and CU would continue.
And that membership fees, FOM and full regulation would be necessary.
Instead the overton window has been shifted and shifted and shifted towards a harder and harder and harder Brexit.
Worth bearing in mind that this is the first trade deal in history designed to make it harder not easier to trade. On average, economists think it will subtract about 4% from UK GDP in the long run, relative to single market membership. If they are right this cost is far greater than the net payments we made as an EU member. Still, it is better than no deal, and for that at least we should be thankful.
Well, no it really isn’t, and I say that as a Remainer. The EU wasn’t just about trade, or it’s unlikely we’d ever have left it. It also had major sociopolitical ramifications that were, to put it mildly, not universally popular.
This deal *is* designed to make trade easier than it would be in a clean break. So from that point of view it might fairly be compared to the free trade deals in the former Soviet Union, or Greenland’s arrangements with Denmark after 1985, which in itself sees your point fail.
If you are arguing that UK-EU trade won't be harder on Jan 1st after this deal takes effect than on Dec 31st under existing rules then you are demonstrably wrong. Of course it is better than no deal, which is why I said precisely that.
Yes, but my point is that you are making a totally false statement. Your implication is we have negotiated a trade deal to make trade harder. We haven’t. We left a political system, rightly or wrongly, and negotiated a trade deal to free up trade in this new political situation rather than trade on WTO terms. Which actually happens very frequently. So whatever your private views on leave or remain, it is you who is ‘demonstrably wrong’ in your claim that ‘this is the first trade deal in history designed to make it harder not easier to trade.‘
It is common in analysing trade deals to compare what has been negotiated with what went before, rather than with some hypothetical third scenario. Since I have repeatedly said that the deal is better than this hypothetical third scenario I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes it is better than no deal, but much much worse than our prior arrangements.
Yes, but our prior arrangements were not a trade deal, and shouldn’t therefore be compared on a like for like basis.
That is pure sophistry. I thought this was meant to be a serious debate.
We were told the EU needed to move substantially to get a deal. What/who gives?
Its a shame that our government had framed the negotiation in this way. It has been very tedious and now we all get to be bored to tears with bluster about great victories.
The detail is what matters. Avoiding tariffs is a big win - a risk that we pushed upon ourselves. Now we get to enjoy the vast expense and complication of customs and standards paperwork and the lengthy delays at the border as we check them. To say nothing about all of the lost opportunities from all the side deals we had. Who knew that one of our big wins would be the requirement to have your dog microchipped, have rabies and worming treatment at the vets and a nice certificate just to take them from one part of our country to another? Fantastic profitable news if you are a vet, less so if you own a dog and want to go to NI.
How about a two week extension so parliament can scrutinise the whole thing?
Nah, bounce it through and read it later. It's the British way...
The last time we ended up with a border down the Irish Sea. Someone had better take a close look at it, or it'll turn out that we've ceded Kent to the French or something.
I'm not sure the French would want all of Kent; parts maybe but not all.
Mr. Starry, are you suggesting Scotland should've had a veto over the referendum result?
Absolutely not. But the opinion of the Scottish people had to be taken into account for what would have far-reaching consequences for all the countries of the British Isles. England will always have a bigger vote than Scotland. That doesn't mean Scotland always has to tug the forelock to whatever they decide. Without taking into account the views of Scotland in a meaningful, politically-sound manner, there is no union worth defending.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Retruning to the seed potatoes, remember that
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds) (b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union (c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French (d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party (e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
Less than 1% of Scots work in seed potatoes, it shows the utter desperation of Nationalists that they can only find this issue to whinge about and even then the UK government is still pressing for its inclusion too.
Today is a disastrous day for Sturgeon and a triumphant day for Boris
Just under 5K people work in commercial fishing in Scotland. I make that about 2.1% of the working population. Bassically, you are dismissing something of comparable size to fishing as a completely avoidable effect opf Brexit.
And it's been known about for months, so why hasn't it been sorted??
George Mason, 1787... (The president) “ought not to have the power of pardoning, because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen, at some future day, that he will establish a monarchy, and destroy the republic. If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment, or conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection?”
James Madison: “ There is one security in this case to which the gentlemen not have adverted: If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him (with a pardon), the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty.”
That worked out well.
The Founding Fathers were, in many ways, utter morons.
When did the senate gain the power to remove from the House ? The first senate wasn't convened till 1789. Furthermore when was a supermajority required - only a question. Perhaps I'm missing something from Madison here.
Oh Lord - found it - Art 1 of the const.
The constitution's framers vested the Senate with this power for several reasons. First, they believed senators would be better educated, more virtuous, and more high-minded than members of the House of Representatives and thus uniquely able to decide responsibly the most difficult of political questions. Second, they believed that the Senate, being a numerous body, would be well suited to handle the procedural demands of an impeachment trial, in which it, unlike judges and the judiciary system, would "never be tied down by such strict rules, either in the delineation of the offense by the prosecutor, or in the construction of it by judges, as in the common cases serve to limit the discretion of courts in favor of personal security." (Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist No. 65).
Looks like Hamilton didn't anticipate the combination of the modern day GOP and Trump. Anyway they have the power, the GOP owns all these pardons now. You'd hope they'd be punished at the ballot box for their nonsense.
Until the 17th ammendment in 1913, Senators were appointed by state legislatures rather than elected*, so as originally envisaged Senators were quite likely to be a level above Representatives.
*by 1913 many states had already switched to this, with the state legislatures a rubber stamp exercise.
Also apropos of nothing many of the Founding Fathers hated what the electoral college became.
The idea of pre-pledged delegates ran exactly counter to what they intended. The idea was people were supposed to electing wise men who would go to the electoral college meaning and have a high minded debate about who was the best candidate for President. The notion that electors would have already made up their mind before the debate, or worse, be made to vote for a particular candidate ahead of time was the very opposite of what they wanted.
I very much doubt the UK will rejoin in the future as our trading agreements with the rest of the world will change quite dramatically
Yet to see them sign any deal that is as good a deal as we have in EU, has anyone any evidence of where they got an improved deal for all the expense and hassle???? PS: I don't mean a miniscule opportunity like selling stilton to Japan either for worse terms
From the 1st January the UK is free to strike deals and the biggest prize is the TPP which I expect us to join in the next couple of years, especially as Joe Biden is now likely to take the US into the partnership
It is hard to see what the TPP has to do with us. Although we might want to strike a trade deal with it, going so far as to join the thing would involve submitting to the sort of foreign rules and arbitration that we have just struggled to escape.
It will be the world's largest trading block once the US joins and avoids a UK-US deal
I'm not convinced the US is actually going to join.
But even if they don't, the moment we join it will already be a larger bloc than the EU - and much faster growing too.
I think there's a good chance that they will, Biden will want to show that the US is still committed to APAC and CPTPP membership is a very easy cost free way of doing it. Trump bowing out of the TPP made the agreement looser and allows for our membership.
If the US does join then it would be as part of the the existing CPTPP terms which means no chlorinated chicken and mostly free trade with the US. It's the best of both worlds.
Mr. Starry, are you suggesting Scotland should've had a veto over the referendum result?
Absolutely not. But the opinion of the Scottish people had to be taken into account for what would have far-reaching consequences for all the countries of the British Isles. England will always have a bigger vote than Scotland. That doesn't mean Scotland always has to tug the forelock to whatever they decide. Without taking into account the views of Scotland in a meaningful, politically-sound manner, there is no union worth defending.
And now the Nirish are both in the EU and UK, the Scots will want to know why they can't have the same.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Retruning to the seed potatoes, remember that
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds) (b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union (c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French (d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party (e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
Less than 1% of Scots work in seed potatoes, it shows the utter desperation of Nationalists that they can only find this issue to whinge about and even then the UK government is still pressing for its inclusion too.
Today is a disastrous day for Sturgeon and a triumphant day for Boris
Just under 5K people work in commercial fishing in Scotland. I make that about 2.1% of the working population. Bassically, you are dismissing something of comparable size to fishing as a completely avoidable effect opf Brexit.
And it's been known about for months, so why hasn't it been sorted??
Yes and those fishermen are getting more of their own catch they would never have got from the SNP.
Seed potato producers meanwhile export more to Egypt than the EU, sheer desperation from Nationalists like you
So, deal. Wahay. A good deal compared to no deal, a bad deal compared to membership, but since neither of those were on the table let’s just call it the deal. The substance is what it was always going to be, given the macro economic and political imperatives of the 2 sides. FOM ends and we start to take back our fish. Those were our red lines. The EU protects the integrity of their SM. We can diverge from LPF but at a price. That was their red line.
It’s positive news, here on Christmas Eve, but I will be a trifle disappointed if I see lots of “relief” being expressed. A recurring theme of my Brexit postings over the piece has been to share the insight that the insanity on every level of “WTO” Brexit was never a real world option for the UK. It was a near 0% probability outcome under any PM other than a genuine hardcore BritNat such as a Redwood or a Cash. Or of course the man himself, the Big Daddy of Brexit, Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson is not such an individual. He is not a genuine hardcore anything except opportunist. He was never going to pull the pin on the no deal grenade. He has an 80 seat majority won on the basis of getting Brexit done with a trade deal. It’s come very very late partly because that’s how things go – they expand to fill the time available – but mainly because it works politically for Johnson. This is deemed more important than the anxiety and chaos caused.
The ‘last minute’ aspect works for him domestically in a number of ways. (i) An atmosphere of relief, fed by all the no deal hyping, is conducive to selling the deal. (ii) It provides the optics of “Boris battling to the wire for Britain”. See today’s softhead tabloids for the early fruits of this. (iii) It makes detailed prolonged examination of the deal pre-implementation impossible. This last, I think, is a particular boon. This is not a PM who relishes scrutiny and debate.
Cheers.
It still amazes me that this is the end point.
Back in 2016 it was widely assumed that membership of the SM and CU would continue.
And that membership fees, FOM and full regulation would be necessary.
Instead the overton window has been shifted and shifted and shifted towards a harder and harder and harder Brexit.
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it...it smells of victory!"
Worth bearing in mind that this is the first trade deal in history designed to make it harder not easier to trade. On average, economists think it will subtract about 4% from UK GDP in the long run, relative to single market membership. If they are right this cost is far greater than the net payments we made as an EU member. Still, it is better than no deal, and for that at least we should be thankful.
Well, no it really isn’t, and I say that as a Remainer. The EU wasn’t just about trade, or it’s unlikely we’d ever have left it. It also had major sociopolitical ramifications that were, to put it mildly, not universally popular.
This deal *is* designed to make trade easier than it would be in a clean break. So from that point of view it might fairly be compared to the free trade deals in the former Soviet Union, or Greenland’s arrangements with Denmark after 1985, which in itself sees your point fail.
If you are arguing that UK-EU trade won't be harder on Jan 1st after this deal takes effect than on Dec 31st under existing rules then you are demonstrably wrong. Of course it is better than no deal, which is why I said precisely that.
Yes, but my point is that you are making a totally false statement. Your implication is we have negotiated a trade deal to make trade harder. We haven’t. We left a political system, rightly or wrongly, and negotiated a trade deal to free up trade in this new political situation rather than trade on WTO terms. Which actually happens very frequently. So whatever your private views on leave or remain, it is you who is ‘demonstrably wrong’ in your claim that ‘this is the first trade deal in history designed to make it harder not easier to trade.‘
It is common in analysing trade deals to compare what has been negotiated with what went before, rather than with some hypothetical third scenario. Since I have repeatedly said that the deal is better than this hypothetical third scenario I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes it is better than no deal, but much much worse than our prior arrangements.
Yes, but our prior arrangements were not a trade deal, and shouldn’t therefore be compared on a like for like basis.
That is pure sophistry. I thought this was meant to be a serious debate.
No, it’s a statement of fact. That is definitely part of a serious debate, although regrettably your previous statement was an example of hyperbole, both for the reasons I have stated and because as has been pointed out elsewhere even had your statement been correctly premised there are other examples of trade deals becoming more restrictive.
Ultimately, such statements are a big part of the reason why we lost the argument to Remain, because they undermine our credibility and cause people to stop listening to us.
You have a problem with that? Then stop making them. But don’t abuse me for pointing out that you are wrong.
I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. Let me restate mine. This is the first major trade deal between significant trading blocs that aims to put in place a trading environment more restrictive than that which preceded it. This really shouldn't be a controversial argument, in fact it is the most fundamental description of the situation we are in, I am hardly the only person making it. To argue that isn't the case because the EU single market isn't an FTA is sophistry.
Then let me put it to you in simple terms. You are wrong. Because countries separate all the time, and the EU is considered a country Sui Generis, and put in place more restrictive arrangements than they had before. Ukraine and Russia. Ireland and the UK. Australia and Papua New Guinea. The UK and New Zealand.
Your point would have validity if EU membership were just about trade, but it isn’t. So we leave our membership, over many matters, and negotiate a new relationship that is just about trade. It is nonsensical to suggest that this a more restrictive trade deal replacing a less restrictive one. You are comparing apples and scones.
I'll leave others to judge the relative merits of our arguments.
Okay. Ydoethur is correct and you are completely wrong. Judgement made. Happy now?
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Retruning to the seed potatoes, remember that
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds) (b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union (c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French (d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party (e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
Less than 1% of Scots work in seed potatoes, it shows the utter desperation of Nationalists that they can only find this issue to whinge about and even then the UK government is still pressing for its inclusion too.
Today is a disastrous day for Sturgeon and a triumphant day for Boris
Just under 5K people work in commercial fishing in Scotland. I make that about 2.1% of the working population. Bassically, you are dismissing something of comparable size to fishing as a completely avoidable effect opf Brexit.
And it's been known about for months, so why hasn't it been sorted??
Yes and those fishermen are getting more of their own catch they would never have got from the SNP.
Seed potato producers meanwhile export more to Egypt than the EU, sheer desperation from Nationalists like you
But those figures don't include NI do they?? They will be for previous years.
YOu aree delighted to wreck a significant part of the Scottish seed potato trade for no good reason. And Nirish farming. Or maybe the Nirish don'ty count either.
Mr. Starry, are you suggesting Scotland should've had a veto over the referendum result?
Absolutely not. But the opinion of the Scottish people had to be taken into account for what would have far-reaching consequences for all the countries of the British Isles. England will always have a bigger vote than Scotland. That doesn't mean Scotland always has to tug the forelock to whatever they decide. Without taking into account the views of Scotland in a meaningful, politically-sound manner, there is no union worth defending.
Scots voted to stay in the UK in 2014, Scots were consulted in 2016 when they voted in the EU referendum alongside the rest of the UK.
No further consultation of Scots was needed and a Brexit Deal will now be done for the whole UK
Mr. Carnyx, because one involves the absence of a land border and the other the imposition of one? Also, Northern Ireland and Scotland do have ever so slightly different political histories and present circumstances.
As an aside, the border down the Irish Sea is ****ing stupid. That was one thing May got right.
Mr. Starry, are you suggesting Scotland should've had a veto over the referendum result?
Absolutely not. But the opinion of the Scottish people had to be taken into account for what would have far-reaching consequences for all the countries of the British Isles. England will always have a bigger vote than Scotland. That doesn't mean Scotland always has to tug the forelock to whatever they decide. Without taking into account the views of Scotland in a meaningful, politically-sound manner, there is no union worth defending.
And now the Nirish are both in the EU and UK, the Scots will want to know why they can't have the same.
Northern Ireland left the EU along with the rest of the UK in January, the only reason special arrangements post Brexit have been given for NI is it borders another EU nation, the Republic of Ireland, that does not apply to Scotland
We haven't seen the details of the deal yet, but what we do know already is that it will deliver: 1. Tariff free access for EU goods to the UK market, where they enjoy a significant trade surplus. 2. More barriers to the EU market for UK services, where we enjoy a significant surplus. 3. Fewer freedoms for UK citizens and businesses. 4. More red tape for UK businesses and citizens who operate in or wish to visit the EU. 5. A customs border in the Irish Sea. But that is by the by. Any deal is better than no deal because it will mean we have a friendly relationship with the EU, which is our most important trading partner and an organisation of which most of our best friends are members. because we have sealed a deal we can hope for cooperation and a level of goodwill that will enable us to forge a closer relationship over time in a relatively pain-free manner. That is very good news indeed.
So, deal. Wahay. A good deal compared to no deal, a bad deal compared to membership, but since neither of those were on the table let’s just call it the deal. The substance is what it was always going to be, given the macro economic and political imperatives of the 2 sides. FOM ends and we start to take back our fish. Those were our red lines. The EU protects the integrity of their SM. We can diverge from LPF but at a price. That was their red line.
It’s positive news, here on Christmas Eve, but I will be a trifle disappointed if I see lots of “relief” being expressed. A recurring theme of my Brexit postings over the piece has been to share the insight that the insanity on every level of “WTO” Brexit was never a real world option for the UK. It was a near 0% probability outcome under any PM other than a genuine hardcore BritNat such as a Redwood or a Cash. Or of course the man himself, the Big Daddy of Brexit, Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson is not such an individual. He is not a genuine hardcore anything except opportunist. He was never going to pull the pin on the no deal grenade. He has an 80 seat majority won on the basis of getting Brexit done with a trade deal. It’s come very very late partly because that’s how things go – they expand to fill the time available – but mainly because it works politically for Johnson. This is deemed more important than the anxiety and chaos caused.
The ‘last minute’ aspect works for him domestically in a number of ways. (i) An atmosphere of relief, fed by all the no deal hyping, is conducive to selling the deal. (ii) It provides the optics of “Boris battling to the wire for Britain”. See today’s softhead tabloids for the early fruits of this. (iii) It makes detailed prolonged examination of the deal pre-implementation impossible. This last, I think, is a particular boon. This is not a PM who relishes scrutiny and debate.
Cheers.
It still amazes me that this is the end point.
Back in 2016 it was widely assumed that membership of the SM and CU would continue.
And that membership fees, FOM and full regulation would be necessary.
Instead the overton window has been shifted and shifted and shifted towards a harder and harder and harder Brexit.
Unless there's any nasty unforeseen surprises this does seem to be an excellent cherrypick compared to what we had five years ago.
So, deal. Wahay. A good deal compared to no deal, a bad deal compared to membership, but since neither of those were on the table let’s just call it the deal. The substance is what it was always going to be, given the macro economic and political imperatives of the 2 sides. FOM ends and we start to take back our fish. Those were our red lines. The EU protects the integrity of their SM. We can diverge from LPF but at a price. That was their red line.
It’s positive news, here on Christmas Eve, but I will be a trifle disappointed if I see lots of “relief” being expressed. A recurring theme of my Brexit postings over the piece has been to share the insight that the insanity on every level of “WTO” Brexit was never a real world option for the UK. It was a near 0% probability outcome under any PM other than a genuine hardcore BritNat such as a Redwood or a Cash. Or of course the man himself, the Big Daddy of Brexit, Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson is not such an individual. He is not a genuine hardcore anything except opportunist. He was never going to pull the pin on the no deal grenade. He has an 80 seat majority won on the basis of getting Brexit done with a trade deal. It’s come very very late partly because that’s how things go – they expand to fill the time available – but mainly because it works politically for Johnson. This is deemed more important than the anxiety and chaos caused.
The ‘last minute’ aspect works for him domestically in a number of ways. (i) An atmosphere of relief, fed by all the no deal hyping, is conducive to selling the deal. (ii) It provides the optics of “Boris battling to the wire for Britain”. See today’s softhead tabloids for the early fruits of this. (iii) It makes detailed prolonged examination of the deal pre-implementation impossible. This last, I think, is a particular boon. This is not a PM who relishes scrutiny and debate.
Cheers.
It still amazes me that this is the end point.
Back in 2016 it was widely assumed that membership of the SM and CU would continue.
And that membership fees, FOM and full regulation would be necessary.
Instead the overton window has been shifted and shifted and shifted towards a harder and harder and harder Brexit.
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it...it smells of victory!"
Mr. Carnyx, because one involves the absence of a land border and the other the imposition of one? Also, Northern Ireland and Scotland do have ever so slightly different political histories and present circumstances.
As an aside, the border down the Irish Sea is ****ing stupid. That was one thing May got right.
Fortunately now No Deal has been avoided and there will be no tariffs on UK and EU trade in practical terms there will barely be any Irish Sea border now anyway
It could even be true, though not all wins and losses are equal in significance so it likely doesn't matter overmuch if it is in the right ballpark even, as much as what they were, and no one will agree on that.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Retruning to the seed potatoes, remember that
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds) (b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union (c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French (d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party (e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
The EU is not a big market for seed potatoes. Twice as many are sold to Egypt as the entire EU.
There is actually a local industry in NI anyway. Perhaps it could expand to fill any gaps in the market?
The arrangement may be a bit daft but the noise is totally out of proportion. It looks like more SNP grievance politics to be honest.
Mr. Carnyx, because one involves the absence of a land border and the other the imposition of one? Also, Northern Ireland and Scotland do have ever so slightly different political histories and present circumstances.
As an aside, the border down the Irish Sea is ****ing stupid. That was one thing May got right.
Undoubtedly different histories. Nevertheless, historical contingencies, and the demonstrated possibility of such a dual situation, are different things.
From a Remainer point of view? Remain is not an option. It's either this Deal or No Deal.
From a Brexiteer point of view? There are Labour MPs who want to Brexit with No Deal? Who are they are? And how does No Deal help their constituents?
Because it appears to be a poor deal (unless one believes Guido).
Abstention allows the deal to go through without confirmation.
In twelve months time,
Starmer: "The trade deal has proven to be a failure, all the car manufacturers have moved to mainland Europe"
Johnson: " Well it's your fault, you supported the deal".
You're absolutely delusional if you think a deal will ever be Starmers fault. This is Boris's deal.
There is a trap though for Labour. The Brexit deal - once we get through the hubris to the detail - won't be the magic bullet it was sold as. The realities of a shit ton of red tape and increased costs and delays and lack of freedoms will impact onto people already sick of a lack of freedom and increased cost of living.
Let me give you an example. We appear to have dodged the (self-threatened) tariff on cars and car parts. So all we suffer now are the costs of reams of paperwork and lengthy transit through formerly open borders. If - as suggested by their COO - that is enough for Nissan to pull the plug then the workforce in the North East aren't going to just blame Boris. They will blame Labour for not protecting them from it.
This is Keith's conundrum. People need to be protected from something that they have falsely been promised will benefit them. If he protects them they will be outraged now. If he doesn't protect them they will be outraged later.
Less than 1% of Scots work with seed potatoes and the government is still pushing for their inclusion anyway.
The Deal will be disastrous news for Sturgeon who was praying for No Deal to push for independence.
There is now the prospect the SNP will not even get a majority next year and when Boris refuses indyref2 the SNP will descend into civil war
Here was me thinking NoDeal was going to be the final nail in the Independence coffin what with the prospect of Razor Wire and Machine Gun posts from Berwick to Gretna.
Now a deal is the final nail.
Interesting. That's a lot of different nails.
At least they're changed so often that there's not the slightest chance of any of them getting rusty
There's only one nail that mattered to this former No voter: what was the role of the Scottish Government in the Brexit negotiations? No voice = no union worth defending
Retruning to the seed potatoes, remember that
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds) (b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union (c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French (d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party (e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
The EU is not a big market for seed potatoes. Twice as many are sold to Egypt as the entire EU.
There is actually a local industry in NI anyway. Perhaps it could expand to fill any gaps in the market?
The arrangement may be a bit daft but the noise is totally out of proportion. It looks like more SNP grievance politics to be honest.
The EU figures won't inclide the Nirish ones.
And if I were a potato farmer I would not be happy. I've worked on potato farms and seen specialist seed potato farms and it does have a personal emotional impact.
Comments
I thought Carswell was a No Dealer?
(I'm so easy to buy for at Christmas...)
Abstention allows the deal to go through without confirmation.
In twelve months time,
Starmer: "The trade deal has proven to be a failure, all the car manufacturers have moved to mainland Europe"
Johnson: " Well it's your fault, you supported the deal".
Foreign policy isn't and cannot be devolved.
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1342027647052894208?s=20
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1342028102420094976?s=20
https://www.tneshop.co.uk/store/Dont-Blame-Me-I-Voted-Remain-T-Shirt-p135442508
https://www.scribd.com/document/489047526/Government-Analysis-of-the-Deal
We are leaving a wonderful community of diverse nations. Probably the best of its kind in the world.
...and how pointless
Even under Trump, I doubt the federal government would have been so slipshod over state agri interests.
Actually, especially under Trump, I'm told he's the farmer's friend, particularly by Trumpers.
Remember that it took a couple of days for DD and BoJo to resign after initially accepting the Chequers plan.
What's more likely to happen is that a the folly of Brexit becomes clear and it's the incumbent, and the generation who it's been foisted upon by their elders gain power, we gradually sign up to stuff that draws us back in without the flag stuff, and we tilt back in the direction of reason and good sense, while those who become the Guilty Men of Brexit, viewed as this generation's Chamberlains and Halifax's are tainted and we gradually get our country back.
So, deal. Wahay. A good deal compared to no deal, a bad deal compared to membership, but since neither of those were on the table let’s just call it the deal. The substance is what it was always going to be, given the macro economic and political imperatives of the 2 sides. FOM ends and we start to take back our fish. Those were our red lines. The EU protects the integrity of their SM. We can diverge from LPF but at a price. That was their red line.
It’s positive news, here on Christmas Eve, but I will be a trifle disappointed if I see lots of “relief” being expressed. A recurring theme of my Brexit postings over the piece has been to share the insight that the insanity on every level of “WTO” Brexit was never a real world option for the UK. It was a near 0% probability outcome under any PM other than a genuine hardcore BritNat such as a Redwood or a Cash. Or of course the man himself, the Big Daddy of Brexit, Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson is not such an individual. He is not a genuine hardcore anything except opportunist. He was never going to pull the pin on the no deal grenade. He has an 80 seat majority won on the basis of getting Brexit done with a trade deal. It’s come very very late partly because that’s how things go – they expand to fill the time available – but mainly because it works politically for Johnson. This is deemed more important than the anxiety and chaos caused.
The ‘last minute’ aspect works for him domestically in a number of ways. (i) An atmosphere of relief, fed by all the no deal hyping, is conducive to selling the deal. (ii) It provides the optics of “Boris battling to the wire for Britain”. See today’s softhead tabloids for the early fruits of this. (iii) It makes detailed prolonged examination of the deal pre-implementation impossible. This last, I think, is a particular boon. This is not a PM who relishes scrutiny and debate.
Cheers.
The website appears to cover all Essex except Colcheter & the NE, and the NW (Saffron Walden area).
Boris might well claim the UK has significant problems trying to deal with its current members and the legacy issues involving the EU are an increasingly low priority.
(a) this messup hits the Nirish farmers even more - as they have been loudly saying for weeks/months and as was pointed out on PB a month or two back (no seed potatoes = empty fields which were supposed to grow spuds)
(b) both the Scottish and Nirish farmers tend to be, erm, not the least supporters of the Union
(c) who's representing the Nirish farmers in the negotiations at present? Clue: not the French
(d) the sainted Mrs T woulkd have been shocked to see the party of business so carelessly wrecking a valuable trade, buit then it's now the "**** business" party
(e) for HYUFD - the seed potatoes are needed to grow potatoes. I know it's a difficult concept, but it does affect the farming industry quite a lot.
Holyrood correctly is purely for domestic matters within Scotland
Like many remainers I know I am resigned to the fact that we currently live in a nation where Boris, Farage and Brexiteers hold sway but nothing I have seen over the last 4 years has caused me to think they might be right.
I simply feel detached from where we go from here, I'm content to let the Brexiteers get on with it, I really don't have a dog in the fight anymore.
Today is a disastrous day for Sturgeon and a triumphant day for Boris
If Sturgeon cannot even match the SNP majority Salmond won in 2011 next year she will be utterly humiliated
Back in 2016 it was widely assumed that membership of the SM and CU would continue.
And that membership fees, FOM and full regulation would be necessary.
Instead the overton window has been shifted and shifted and shifted towards a harder and harder and harder Brexit.
The detail is what matters. Avoiding tariffs is a big win - a risk that we pushed upon ourselves. Now we get to enjoy the vast expense and complication of customs and standards paperwork and the lengthy delays at the border as we check them. To say nothing about all of the lost opportunities from all the side deals we had. Who knew that one of our big wins would be the requirement to have your dog microchipped, have rabies and worming treatment at the vets and a nice certificate just to take them from one part of our country to another? Fantastic profitable news if you are a vet, less so if you own a dog and want to go to NI.
Its an exciting day for
BritainEnglandAnd it's been known about for months, so why hasn't it been sorted??
Also apropos of nothing many of the Founding Fathers hated what the electoral college became.
The idea of pre-pledged delegates ran exactly counter to what they intended. The idea was people were supposed to electing wise men who would go to the electoral college meaning and have a high minded debate about who was the best candidate for President. The notion that electors would have already made up their mind before the debate, or worse, be made to vote for a particular candidate ahead of time was the very opposite of what they wanted.
The British people elects their government that gets stuff done.
A few years later the public elects a new government (or re-elects the old one) and can change course if they want to.
That is taking back control.
That was not, as I understand it, the position of either the Leave or Remain official campaigns.
The only personal 'red line' I had for a deal was customs union membership, which would be utterly daft.
If the US does join then it would be as part of the the existing CPTPP terms which means no chlorinated chicken and mostly free trade with the US. It's the best of both worlds.
Seed potato producers meanwhile export more to Egypt than the EU, sheer desperation from Nationalists like you
Does he wonder what would have happened if he had actually negotiated with the EU instead of thinking it was 'too much of a faff' ?
YOu aree delighted to wreck a significant part of the Scottish seed potato trade for no good reason. And Nirish farming. Or maybe the Nirish don'ty count either.
No further consultation of Scots was needed and a Brexit Deal will now be done for the whole UK
As an aside, the border down the Irish Sea is ****ing stupid. That was one thing May got right.
Interviewer-So you're pleased we're finally leaving the EU. Why is that?
Caller-The EU never did anything for my business...
Interviewer-Why is that?
Caller-Well we had to follow their rules..
.
Interviewer-What's your business?
Caller- I run a Golf Course...
Interviewer-How do their rules affect your running the golf course?
Caller-Well we had to let people in wheelchairs play golf all day
Interviewer-Was that all?
Caller-No we had to have ramps so they could get from one hole to the next....
1. Tariff free access for EU goods to the UK market, where they enjoy a significant trade surplus.
2. More barriers to the EU market for UK services, where we enjoy a significant surplus.
3. Fewer freedoms for UK citizens and businesses.
4. More red tape for UK businesses and citizens who operate in or wish to visit the EU.
5. A customs border in the Irish Sea.
But that is by the by. Any deal is better than no deal because it will mean we have a friendly relationship with the EU, which is our most important trading partner and an organisation of which most of our best friends are members. because we have sealed a deal we can hope for cooperation and a level of goodwill that will enable us to forge a closer relationship over time in a relatively pain-free manner. That is very good news indeed.
Bill Cash ? Mark Francois ? Steve Baker ?
There is actually a local industry in NI anyway. Perhaps it could expand to fill any gaps in the market?
The arrangement may be a bit daft but the noise is totally out of proportion. It looks like more SNP grievance politics to be honest.
Let me give you an example. We appear to have dodged the (self-threatened) tariff on cars and car parts. So all we suffer now are the costs of reams of paperwork and lengthy transit through formerly open borders. If - as suggested by their COO - that is enough for Nissan to pull the plug then the workforce in the North East aren't going to just blame Boris. They will blame Labour for not protecting them from it.
This is Keith's conundrum. People need to be protected from something that they have falsely been promised will benefit them. If he protects them they will be outraged now. If he doesn't protect them they will be outraged later.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48095676
And if I were a potato farmer I would not be happy. I've worked on potato farms and seen specialist seed potato farms and it does have a personal emotional impact.