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After the weekend’s dramatic Boris U-turn the papers are not good for the PM this morning – politica

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited December 2020 in General
After the weekend’s dramatic Boris U-turn the papers are not good for the PM this morning – politicalbetting.com

Former PM speech writer and top aide @ClareFoges in powerful attack on Johnson's approach to the pandemic in the Timeshttps://t.co/zS8cCiRDfR pic.twitter.com/NlfhQhWP6K

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020
    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'.

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited December 2020
    The difficulty is, there's very little evidence that the current LotO would have done things significantly differently, let alone better. That's why there's still no sign of the 20% lead that Tony Blair promised Labour if they elected Starmer, despite the disasters of the last ten months.

    Of course sometimes (e.g. with Labour after the ERM debacle in 1992 and the Conservatives after the 2008 financial crisis) that doesn't matter. But people would be unwise to bet too heavily on that.

    Starmer is clearly not a Blair-type political genius. Whether he's a Cameron-style competent, or a Kinnock-type also-ran, I guess we'll see.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Amazing how much criticism of the PM ostensibly about the handling of the pandemic, ends up talking about extending the EU transition period. It’s almost as if the journalist concerned started by wanting to make that point, and worked backwards from there.

    It’s almost as if the PM should have been focussing on the pandemic at this key moment and not the sovereignty of fish.
    It's almost as if governments generally have more than one issue to deal with at once.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Fishing said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Amazing how much criticism of the PM ostensibly about the handling of the pandemic, ends up talking about extending the EU transition period. It’s almost as if the journalist concerned started by wanting to make that point, and worked backwards from there.

    It’s almost as if the PM should have been focussing on the pandemic at this key moment and not the sovereignty of fish.
    It's almost as if governments generally have more than one issue to deal with at once.
    It’s therefore important to avoid avoidable mistakes, not create unnecessary contention on resources and force balls to be dropped that didn’t need to be dropped. You know, good governance.
  • Australian states and territories have begun enforcing entry bans on Sydney residents amid a growing coronavirus outbreak in the nation's largest city.

    The border closures outside New South Wales (NSW) have dashed Christmas plans and family reunions for many people.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55390731
  • https://twitter.com/ForexLive/status/1340892220145233925?s=20

    Although you do wonder how many of these “shutting the stable door” countries already have the variant, just aren’t doing the genomic testing to identify it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Jonathan said:

    Fishing said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Amazing how much criticism of the PM ostensibly about the handling of the pandemic, ends up talking about extending the EU transition period. It’s almost as if the journalist concerned started by wanting to make that point, and worked backwards from there.

    It’s almost as if the PM should have been focussing on the pandemic at this key moment and not the sovereignty of fish.
    It's almost as if governments generally have more than one issue to deal with at once.
    It’s therefore important to avoid avoidable mistakes, not create unnecessary contention on resources and force balls to be dropped that didn’t need to be dropped. You know, good governance.
    So you're saying he should give in to the EU on fish and that would make the virus go away?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    What a godawful mess we are in.

    An extraordinary isolationist juxtaposition of Brexit and mutant virus.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020
    If this virus mutation is already worldwide, but the particular form of communication of it by the UK govt, even as it may have had to among sharply rising cases, has encouraged a particular reaction abroad, that may raise some questions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'

    You can't have a header saying the PM wants to be loved - and then suggest that he has recklessly gone with the notion that this variant is significantly more transmissable, with all the Boris-hate that will entail from locking down a London-based media in Tier 4....

    So "every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'. Well, every expert except those advising the Government. The alternative is Heneghan would have us wait a few more weeks, when he can safely say "As you were. Yep, it is now the right time to draw that inference. Sorry, NHS...."

    Boris's every instinct is to allow people the chance to have the most freedom they can over Christmas. There's a whole body of evidence of that, which the Boris haters have been dredging up from months back. That he has declared a Tier 4 which cuts across that is therefore not consistent the action of somebody who will take chances, that will wing it to be adored.

    Our Prime Minister has received reports from the scientists tasked with modelling this new variant. Those reports have reasonably-based worst case scenarios which say "Leave this variant to go at its own pace - and the NHS will crash, early in the New Year." So hands up, who's with Heneghan's wait and see if the worst case scenario comes about?

    Not that it matters. The PM has taken decisive action to head off those reasonably-based worst case scenarios. And the polling says the people are largely fine with that. Even if it screws up their Christmas plans. Sorry, Boris haters....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    If Foges has been hearing “Churchillian rhetoric”, it must have passed me by. That seems to be a most inappropriate descriptor for what we have been getting.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    IanB2 said:

    If Foges has been hearing “Churchillian rhetoric”, it must have passed me by. That seems to be a most inappropriate descriptor for what we have been getting.

    From the comments under the article

    “Action this day” was one of the regular memo responses by Churchill when faced with a difficult decision. He had a few to make and, although he didn’t get them all right, he could rarely be accused of dithering, delaying and avoiding the tough calls as Johnson has, repeatedly, since he took office.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Let's hope the cunts think it's just here just long enough for it spread through Europe.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Very much draws parallels with countries congratulating themselves on banning flights from China at the start of the year...
  • Fishing said:

    Jonathan said:

    Fishing said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Amazing how much criticism of the PM ostensibly about the handling of the pandemic, ends up talking about extending the EU transition period. It’s almost as if the journalist concerned started by wanting to make that point, and worked backwards from there.

    It’s almost as if the PM should have been focussing on the pandemic at this key moment and not the sovereignty of fish.
    It's almost as if governments generally have more than one issue to deal with at once.
    It’s therefore important to avoid avoidable mistakes, not create unnecessary contention on resources and force balls to be dropped that didn’t need to be dropped. You know, good governance.
    So you're saying he should give in to the EU on fish and that would make the virus go away?
    A 3 month extension? That would seem sensible unless one were preternaturally obsessed with looking 'weak' on an issue.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221

    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'.

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'

    It’s credible that scientists with closest access to the data think that it’s quite likely more transmissible, but pretty well everyone is saying the same thing as Heneghan. The 70% figure is really just a guess at this point.

    OTOH, scientists are deeply averse to jumping to conclusions (and rightly so)... but it took (for instance) many of them an awfully long time to accept the strong possibility that masks might be effective, until it was demonstrated nearly beyond doubt.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    FPT, just wanted to ask @TrèsDifficile if he’d stopped beating his wife yet ?
  • IanB2 said:

    If Foges has been hearing “Churchillian rhetoric”, it must have passed me by. That seems to be a most inappropriate descriptor for what we have been getting.

    Tbf we know at least one person has been hearing Churchillian rhetoric (in their head).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    edited December 2020
    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited December 2020
    Nigelb said:

    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'.

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'


    OTOH, scientists are deeply averse to jumping to conclusions (and rightly so)... but it took (for instance) many of them an awfully long time to accept the strong possibility that masks might be effective, until it was demonstrated nearly beyond doubt.
    Quite.

    And, as I pointed out at the time, that's because it's virtually impossible to conduct a double-blind trial of mask wearing efficacy. Double-blind trials are their go-to benchmark. To many grounded people it was bleeding obvious that a respiratory virus would be less transmisable if parties are wearing face masks. As most people in Asia knew from experience of SARS.

    The raw stats of exponentially rising infection rates are a pretty good indication that this mutant form is spreading bloody quickly. Which is kind-of all we need to know.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020
    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK really is so much more advanced in this and does have a track record of finding other strains that may already be around the world first, I'm very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented this, though.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    alex_ said:

    Very much draws parallels with countries congratulating themselves on banning flights from China at the start of the year...
    Amazing how governments (with honourable exceptions like Taiwan and New Zealand) are willing to close whole areas of society down but are so reluctant to inconvenience international travellers. If all countries had blocked flights from China at the start of the year we might have had a much better year...

    Whether or not this latest travel ban is bolting the stable door on this particular strain, there will be other mutations that might spread easier and/or be more deadly and/or be not prevented by the vaccines we already have.
  • Nigelb said:

    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
    And “not identified in Germany” which has identified 6 variants vs the UK’s 1500+ in one clade.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    kamski said:

    alex_ said:

    Very much draws parallels with countries congratulating themselves on banning flights from China at the start of the year...
    Amazing how governments (with honourable exceptions like Taiwan and New Zealand) are willing to close whole areas of society down but are so reluctant to inconvenience international travellers. If all countries had blocked flights from China at the start of the year we might have had a much better year...

    Whether or not this latest travel ban is bolting the stable door on this particular strain, there will be other mutations that might spread easier and/or be more deadly and/or be not prevented by the vaccines we already have.
    I think it probably needed a global ban on travel, but I do think in future there needs to be a protocol that does something like that in the event of potential problem virus. I appreciate that might mean a few false alarms causing considerable disruption, but it will be worth it to try to stop a repeat of this.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kamski said:

    alex_ said:

    Very much draws parallels with countries congratulating themselves on banning flights from China at the start of the year...
    Amazing how governments (with honourable exceptions like Taiwan and New Zealand) are willing to close whole areas of society down but are so reluctant to inconvenience international travellers. If all countries had blocked flights from China at the start of the year we might have had a much better year...

    Whether or not this latest travel ban is bolting the stable door on this particular strain, there will be other mutations that might spread easier and/or be more deadly and/or be not prevented by the vaccines we already have.
    The point I was making that just as at the start of the year countries thought that focussing on travel from China was sufficient, now countries are doing the same with the U.K., and probably missing the wider picture.

    Countries like Taiwan, New Zealand etc were successful because they pretty much blocked ALL incoming travel.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    alex_ said:

    kamski said:

    alex_ said:

    Very much draws parallels with countries congratulating themselves on banning flights from China at the start of the year...
    Amazing how governments (with honourable exceptions like Taiwan and New Zealand) are willing to close whole areas of society down but are so reluctant to inconvenience international travellers. If all countries had blocked flights from China at the start of the year we might have had a much better year...

    Whether or not this latest travel ban is bolting the stable door on this particular strain, there will be other mutations that might spread easier and/or be more deadly and/or be not prevented by the vaccines we already have.
    The point I was making that just as at the start of the year countries thought that focussing on travel from China was sufficient, now countries are doing the same with the U.K., and probably missing the wider picture.

    Countries like Taiwan, New Zealand etc were successful because they pretty much blocked ALL incoming travel.
    Yes I agree with thst
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    So we do by far the most sequencing, I've read it is as much as 10% of all cases here, so we are almost bound to spot new variants earlier than other countries.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global pre-eminence in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    https://khub.net/documents/135939561/338928724/SARS-CoV-2+variant+under+investigation,+meeting+minutes.pdf/962e866b-161f-2fd5-1030-32b6ab467896?t=1608491166921

    “In summary, NERVTAG has moderate confidence that VUI-202012/01 demonstrates a substantial increase in transmissibility compared to other variants.”

    Can anyone define in precise terms “moderate confidence” ? An awful lot is now kicking off in response to those two words.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2020

    Nigelb said:

    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
    And “not identified in Germany” which has identified 6 variants vs the UK’s 1500+ in one clade.
    Is that six total? Or just six in one clade?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited December 2020

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    All continental countries? That would be the French...

    And actually we could have done with some international panic back in January. Unfortunately, the Europeans are kidding themselves if they think it's just us.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    moonshine said:

    https://khub.net/documents/135939561/338928724/SARS-CoV-2+variant+under+investigation,+meeting+minutes.pdf/962e866b-161f-2fd5-1030-32b6ab467896?t=1608491166921

    “In summary, NERVTAG has moderate confidence that VUI-202012/01 demonstrates a substantial increase in transmissibility compared to other variants.”

    Can anyone define in precise terms “moderate confidence” ? An awful lot is now kicking off in response to those two words.

    “It’s our best guess.”
    Or alternatively, more likely than not.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    I see it's going to be a day for measured commentary on matters Gallic. I wonder if the French yellow press is demanding gunboats blockade British ferries?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    I see it's going to be a day for measured commentary on matters Gallic. I wonder if the French yellow press is demanding gunboats blockade British ferries?
    Why bother with gunboats when they have all those unemployed lorry drivers?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    This sort of thing should have been thought about and planned for months ago. It should not have been beyond the capability of Governments to put in place strict rules for thing like transport of goods (and those transporting them) such that impromptu travel bans should not impact directly on the supply of critical imports and exports.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Incidentally this travel ban presumably ends International and European sporting competition involvement of U.K. competitors?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited December 2020

    Nigelb said:

    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
    And “not identified in Germany” which has identified 6 variants vs the UK’s 1500+ in one clade.
    During my time in Germany in September, they had low case numbers and very widespread adoption and observance of all the usual precautions. I have been surprised, since my return, to see how quickly things have deteriorated there, and even more so in Italy which was similarly responsible having suffered so much in the spring. My working hypotheses had been that as the weather changed, forcing people indoors, these precautions became so much less effective. But it is possible, I guess, that changes in the nature of the virus might explain why success turned to failure so quickly. In which case they all have it already.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    alex_ said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    This sort of thing should have been thought about and planned for months ago. It should not have been beyond the capability of Governments to put in place strict rules for thing like transport of goods (and those transporting them) such that impromptu travel bans should not impact directly on the supply of critical imports and exports.
    I guess it was unthinkable that anyone would have done this. Imagine a scenario where a new strain was identified in RoI. Can you for one moment imagine us banning freight from RoI? Not happening.
    alex_ said:

    Incidentally this travel ban presumably ends International and European sporting competition involvement of U.K. competitors?

    Well, the next round of European football fixtures isn't until February. Perhaps by then the rest of Europe will have realised that they have it too.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
    And “not identified in Germany” which has identified 6 variants vs the UK’s 1500+ in one clade.
    During my time in Germany in September, they had low case numbers and very widespread adoption and observance of all the usual precautions. I have been surprised, since my return, to see how quickly things have deteriorated there, and even more so in Italy which was similarly responsible having suffered so much in the spring. My working hypotheses had been that as the weather changed, forcing people indoors, these precautions became so much less effective. But it is possible, I guess, that changes in the nature of the virus might explain why success turned to failure so quickly. In which case they all have it already.
    I think weather - both in terms of human behaviour and susceptibility to viruses - has made a difference. At the start of all this I said I thought it would have been better if this had come along at the end of September rather than the end of March (I appreciate that this sort of thing is more likely in the Northern Hemisphere winter), and I stand by that. We'd have been coming out of the first lockdown for Christmas, potentially had further restrictions in Jan-Mar and then been a race against time to get everyone vaccinated for the following Christmas.

    The problem is that we enjoyed the Summer too much and now we're paying the price.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'.

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'

    Heneghan can fuck off.

    The whole country could die of Covid and he'd be all like "it is too early to draw conclusions..."
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    https://twitter.com/ForexLive/status/1340892220145233925?s=20

    Although you do wonder how many of these “shutting the stable door” countries already have the variant, just aren’t doing the genomic testing to identify it.

    Given London's status as an international travel hub probably most of them.

    Not that closing air travel isn't the right thing to do though.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    FPT: Mr. JohnL, always back Hamilton?

    At the penultimate race of the season I had a 61 winning tip on Perez to win :D
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    So we are still pretending that this was just a Boris U turn rather than an inevitable conclusion based on the new data followed in all the devolved administrations. I wonder why that would be?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,436
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
    And “not identified in Germany” which has identified 6 variants vs the UK’s 1500+ in one clade.
    During my time in Germany in September, they had low case numbers and very widespread adoption and observance of all the usual precautions. I have been surprised, since my return, to see how quickly things have deteriorated there, and even more so in Italy which was similarly responsible having suffered so much in the spring. My working hypotheses had been that as the weather changed, forcing people indoors, these precautions became so much less effective. But it is possible, I guess, that changes in the nature of the virus might explain why success turned to failure so quickly. In which case they all have it already.
    Yes. They have it. Almost certainly.

    The idea there are tens of thousands of cases, of Supercovid, in Kent and London, and basically zero on the continent, is prima facie nonsensical. Kent and London interact with mainland Europe more than anywhere else in the UK. It’s virtually inconceivable it hasn’t spread abroad (or, possibly, arrived here from abroad).

    And it does explain the 2nd waves of countries which had it so controlled.

    It might even be in Asia. See the latest surge in Korea, Thailand and so on.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK govt had emphasised from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    There are some very smart people on here. I don't recall anyone predicting on Saturday night this response.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    Will everyone else be so keen to close off borders when other countries are shown to have it too? Will Schengen effectively collapse when it is shown to be widely across other EU countries? Let's see.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    No I don't think so.

    It would still be a case of this new scary mutant variant is definitely in the UK and unknown whether in their country.

    Every politician can either close the border with the UK, even if it's too late, and still see it spread ... Or they can keep the border open, see it spread, then get blame from voters saying why did you not close the border?

    The precautionary principle is to close the border either way. Nothing Boris did or did not say changes that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Given Heathrow is in Tier 4...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    DavidL said:

    So we are still pretending that this was just a Boris U turn rather than an inevitable conclusion based on the new data followed in all the devolved administrations. I wonder why that would be?

    Starmer knew it was necessary on Wednesday. BoZo said it would be inhuman.

    BoZo announced it on Friday.

    Which part of that is not a U-turn?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,436
    I mean, it’s in Australia

    https://twitter.com/abcnews/status/1340834374258814976?s=21

    So it is very definitely in France, Holland, Germany...
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    No I don't think so.

    It would still be a case of this new scary mutant variant is definitely in the UK and unknown whether in their country.

    Every politician can either close the border with the UK, even if it's too late, and still see it spread ... Or they can keep the border open, see it spread, then get blame from voters saying why did you not close the border?

    The precautionary principle is to close the border either way. Nothing Boris did or did not say changes that.
    As mentioned, I don't agree. The precautionary principle would still be in place, but if people thought this was partly because the UK was ahead rather than behind, that would partly offset it.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Alistair said:

    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'.

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'

    Heneghan can fuck off.

    The whole country could die of Covid and he'd be all like "it is too early to draw conclusions..."
    He would be dead so unable to draw conclusions
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    I see it's going to be a day for measured commentary on matters Gallic. I wonder if the French yellow press is demanding gunboats blockade British ferries?

    The relentless whinge of the Brexiteer is the muzak of our time.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    This is all so unnecessary. Starmer isn’t some Nostradamus-like seer, foreseeing the unforeseeable. The government’s eventual policy decisions were entirely predictable but delayed — disastrously — by Johnson’s determinations to look on the bright side, despite evidence of gathering clouds.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,712
    DavidL said:

    So we are still pretending that this was just a Boris U turn rather than an inevitable conclusion based on the new data followed in all the devolved administrations. I wonder why that would be?

    Perfectly possible to be both. Cases were growing well before Wednesdays PMQs. Johnson is a mendacious fickwit completely unsuited to any responsible job. Least of all the one that he is doing.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    DavidL said:

    So we are still pretending that this was just a Boris U turn rather than an inevitable conclusion based on the new data followed in all the devolved administrations. I wonder why that would be?

    Because he was still playing the clown on Wednesday at PMqs , when he already knew there was a possibility that tighter conditions would be needed before Christmas.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Curiously a freight train went through the tunnel this morning:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/83151/2020-12-21/detailed
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,436
    To everyone suggesting Bojo is not up to the job - and I agree his upbeat personality is a bad fit with Black Death - they also need to suggest their desired alternative.

    Quite frankly, we aren’t blessed with gritty, ballsy, smart, capable, determined, inspiring and unflinching leaders.

    The best I can come up with is Jeremy Hunt, which says it all.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Alistair said:

    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'.

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'

    Heneghan can fuck off.

    The whole country could die of Covid and he'd be all like "it is too early to draw conclusions..."
    I think you may be misinterpreting his thinking.

    The implications if the 70% figure were right would be terrifying. If it's 40% it will be extremely bad, but may be just about possible to handle with a full lockdown as in the Spring. I don't think any scientist in his/her right mind is suggesting the slightest degree of complacency about this.

    I don't know whether this has been posted here, but the 70% figure apparently comes from the work presented in the video at 2h45m:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CT9N89L-c

    The person presenting it says “it’s really too early to tell”, comments that the model is not a good fit, and seems to place no reliance on the actual number that comes out of it, but is in no doubt that the new variant is growing very quickly.

    The figures for the change in its prevalence in London alone seem more consistent with 40%.

  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Given Heathrow is in Tier 4...

    Which is probably why so many countries are banning flights from the UK. France also has a roll-on, roll-off ferry port to deal with - and thousands of lorry drivers who have been sat, motionless, in Kent for several days. A 48 hour break to take stock of the situation is not an act of war or sabotage, it is a sensible step that could allow some solutions to be found.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,712
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
    And “not identified in Germany” which has identified 6 variants vs the UK’s 1500+ in one clade.
    During my time in Germany in September, they had low case numbers and very widespread adoption and observance of all the usual precautions. I have been surprised, since my return, to see how quickly things have deteriorated there, and even more so in Italy which was similarly responsible having suffered so much in the spring. My working hypotheses had been that as the weather changed, forcing people indoors, these precautions became so much less effective. But it is possible, I guess, that changes in the nature of the virus might explain why success turned to failure so quickly. In which case they all have it already.
    Germany had some early summer victories, and looked nimble and undefeatable. Then the weather changed and they became bogged down, and their deficiencies of supply became obvious...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    We know it’s in Denmark, who not coincidentally have decent sequencing capacity too.

    Similar considerations apply to the new South African variant, and the rest of Africa.
    And “not identified in Germany” which has identified 6 variants vs the UK’s 1500+ in one clade.
    During my time in Germany in September, they had low case numbers and very widespread adoption and observance of all the usual precautions. I have been surprised, since my return, to see how quickly things have deteriorated there, and even more so in Italy which was similarly responsible having suffered so much in the spring. My working hypotheses had been that as the weather changed, forcing people indoors, these precautions became so much less effective. But it is possible, I guess, that changes in the nature of the virus might explain why success turned to failure so quickly. In which case they all have it already.
    Germany had some early summer victories, and looked nimble and undefeatable. Then the weather changed and they became bogged down, and their deficiencies of supply became obvious...
    Winter may prove their undoing.....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,712
    tlg86 said:

    Curiously a freight train went through the tunnel this morning:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/83151/2020-12-21/detailed

    Unaccompanied freight?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    So we are still pretending that this was just a Boris U turn rather than an inevitable conclusion based on the new data followed in all the devolved administrations. I wonder why that would be?

    Starmer knew it was necessary on Wednesday. BoZo said it would be inhuman.

    BoZo announced it on Friday.

    Which part of that is not a U-turn?
    I didn't say it was not a U turn. I simply made the point that the U turn has been made by Sturgeon (who, inevitably, has gone further), Drakeford and Foster, three politicians of very different stripes who have no interest in supporting Johnson. So the new information has resulted in new policies everywhere (there are very few EU countries that have not tightened restrictions in the last 7 days) but we focus on Johnson here as if he was acting in an irrational way on the basis of a whim rather than evidence. It's ridiculous.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Given Heathrow is in Tier 4...

    Which is probably why so many countries are banning flights from the UK. France also has a roll-on, roll-off ferry port to deal with - and thousands of lorry drivers who have been sat, motionless, in Kent for several days. A 48 hour break to take stock of the situation is not an act of war or sabotage, it is a sensible step that could allow some solutions to be found.

    Then say so. Say that you're going to set up testing etc. at Calais.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,436

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Belgium and Holland via ferries and trains.

    That said I can see why the French govt did this and I don’t think it’s that devious or evil. If a terrifying new strain of the Pest was identified in France the British public would clamour for the channel ports to be closed, in just the same way.

    It’s fruitless tho. If the science is even half right Hard New Bastard Covid is already in the EU and will inexorably spread
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    DavidL said:

    So we are still pretending that this was just a Boris U turn rather than an inevitable conclusion based on the new data followed in all the devolved administrations. I wonder why that would be?

    I would not want the be a defense lawyer for Johhson on this one.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    No I don't think so.

    It would still be a case of this new scary mutant variant is definitely in the UK and unknown whether in their country.

    Every politician can either close the border with the UK, even if it's too late, and still see it spread ... Or they can keep the border open, see it spread, then get blame from voters saying why did you not close the border?

    The precautionary principle is to close the border either way. Nothing Boris did or did not say changes that.
    As mentioned, I don't agree. The precautionary principle would still be in place, but if people thought this was partly because the UK was ahead rather than behind, that would partly offset it.
    No because that would be (partially rightly) seen as self serving British spin while people here would be mocking Boris for saying the UK was world beating. Even though we are.

    It would not change any facts on the ground. They know for a fact we have this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,712
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Belgium and Holland via ferries and trains.

    That said I can see why the French govt did this and I don’t think it’s that devious or evil. If a terrifying new strain of the Pest was identified in France the British public would clamour for the channel ports to be closed, in just the same way.

    It’s fruitless tho. If the science is even half right Hard New Bastard Covid is already in the EU and will inexorably spread
    It is pretty certain to be everywhere, but that doesn't mean that control measures are obsolete. After all, we have instituted Tier 4 internally for just that reason.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Belgium and Holland via ferries and trains.

    That said I can see why the French govt did this and I don’t think it’s that devious or evil. If a terrifying new strain of the Pest was identified in France the British public would clamour for the channel ports to be closed, in just the same way.

    It’s fruitless tho. If the science is even half right Hard New Bastard Covid is already in the EU and will inexorably spread
    Noone knows how the new strain got ger ir when. Our testing orocedures seem to be way ahead of the EU.

    The EU procedures are of the finger in the dyke variety. (No jokes please!)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,436
    I must say my skiing holiday in the Alps next week is beginning to look a bit optimistic. And I’m not one to yield to negativity
  • With a stronger Cabinet I think a delegation of senior ministers would have had a word about extending the brexit transition by now.

    This lot were chosen precisely because they wouldn't show that kind of leadership and good sense.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Curiously a freight train went through the tunnel this morning:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/83151/2020-12-21/detailed

    Unaccompanied freight?
    Train driver? It's quite a sad story actually. There were great hopes that the tunnel would bring about a revival of wagonload rail freight in Britain. Sadly, illegal immigrants put a stop to most of it. The freight operators were getting big fines everytime someone made it through the tunnel on a train.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,436
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Belgium and Holland via ferries and trains.

    That said I can see why the French govt did this and I don’t think it’s that devious or evil. If a terrifying new strain of the Pest was identified in France the British public would clamour for the channel ports to be closed, in just the same way.

    It’s fruitless tho. If the science is even half right Hard New Bastard Covid is already in the EU and will inexorably spread
    It is pretty certain to be everywhere, but that doesn't mean that control measures are obsolete. After all, we have instituted Tier 4 internally for just that reason.
    Agreed. If you’re facing a massive tsunami moving to slightly higher ground is sensible, even if it probably won’t do that much.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    No I don't think so.

    It would still be a case of this new scary mutant variant is definitely in the UK and unknown whether in their country.

    Every politician can either close the border with the UK, even if it's too late, and still see it spread ... Or they can keep the border open, see it spread, then get blame from voters saying why did you not close the border?

    The precautionary principle is to close the border either way. Nothing Boris did or did not say changes that.
    As mentioned, I don't agree. The precautionary principle would still be in place, but if people thought this was partly because the UK was ahead rather than behind, that would partly offset it.
    No because that would be (partially rightly) seen as self serving British spin while people here would be mocking Boris for saying the UK was world beating. Even though we are.

    It would not change any facts on the ground. They know for a fact we have this.
    The fact that Johnson has missed a rare genuine opportunity for one of his world-beating claims is part of the problem. The reaction would have come, but it wouldn't have been as widely spread or unqualified.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.

    The French are directly exposed to a large number of travellers arriving specifically from a Tier 4 area of the UK, Is any other country?

    Belgium and Holland via ferries and trains.

    That said I can see why the French govt did this and I don’t think it’s that devious or evil. If a terrifying new strain of the Pest was identified in France the British public would clamour for the channel ports to be closed, in just the same way.

    It’s fruitless tho. If the science is even half right Hard New Bastard Covid is already in the EU and will inexorably spread
    It may even have come from there. Italy has had a particularly torrid time this last month or so and Spain isn't much better. It doesn't really matter, it's everywhere and it significantly impacts on what we can get away with whilst keeping the R rate below 1.

    My guess, based on the information provided, is that we are somewhere near half way what the death toll is going to be from this pernicious virus before vaccination gives enough of us protection. January will almost certainly be the worst month yet.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    The expert on R4 explaining a factoid that cropped up on PB this Saturday, that the new virus strain cannot be identified by one of the tests being used - actually one of the two confirmatory tests done on each sample after the primary test, which for the new strain always comes back negative. While this isn’t affecting total case numbers identified, because of the other two tests, presumably the loss of one of the confirmatory tests makes the results a tad less reliable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,436

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    No I don't think so.

    It would still be a case of this new scary mutant variant is definitely in the UK and unknown whether in their country.

    Every politician can either close the border with the UK, even if it's too late, and still see it spread ... Or they can keep the border open, see it spread, then get blame from voters saying why did you not close the border?

    The precautionary principle is to close the border either way. Nothing Boris did or did not say changes that.
    As mentioned, I don't agree. The precautionary principle would still be in place, but if people thought this was partly because the UK was ahead rather than behind, that would partly offset it.
    No because that would be (partially rightly) seen as self serving British spin while people here would be mocking Boris for saying the UK was world beating. Even though we are.

    It would not change any facts on the ground. They know for a fact we have this.
    The fact that Johnson has missed a rare genuine opportunity for one of his world-beating claims is part of the problem. The reaction would have come, but it wouldn't have been as strong.
    He did say it. He explicitly said in his presser ‘the UK has world beating gene sequencing’. The trouble is he’s used that phrase so often, and so spuriously - ‘world beating test and trace’ - it now gets ignored.

    I feel sorry for Boris (unlike many here), but he has also been the author of his own misfortune.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    No I don't think so.

    It would still be a case of this new scary mutant variant is definitely in the UK and unknown whether in their country.

    Every politician can either close the border with the UK, even if it's too late, and still see it spread ... Or they can keep the border open, see it spread, then get blame from voters saying why did you not close the border?

    The precautionary principle is to close the border either way. Nothing Boris did or did not say changes that.
    As mentioned, I don't agree. The precautionary principle would still be in place, but if people thought this was partly because the UK was ahead rather than behind, that would partly offset it.
    No because that would be (partially rightly) seen as self serving British spin while people here would be mocking Boris for saying the UK was world beating. Even though we are.

    It would not change any facts on the ground. They know for a fact we have this.
    The fact that Johnson has missed a rare genuine opportunity for one of his world-beating claims is part of the problem. The reaction would have come, but it wouldn't have been as fast or unqualified.
    I see no reason besides blind optimism to believe that. What country would willingly expose themselves to a nation they KNOW has a deadlier variant when they don't know if they have it themselves or not?

    It doesn't matter if they probably have it or not, they might not while we DEFINITELY do.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited December 2020
    Chris said:

    Alistair said:

    First.

    I'm generally cautious about posting up his statements, and they should perhaps come with a health warning, to coin a phrase, as the virus-sceptic press keeps holding them up as gospel ; but this interests me.

    "Carl Heneghan, Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University's Nuffield Department of Primary Care, expressed scepticism over the 70 per cent greater transmissibility figure.

    He said: 'I've been doing this job for 25 years and I can tell you can't establish a quantifiable number in such a short time frame.'

    He added 'every expert is saying it's too early to draw such an inference'.

    Professor Heneghan said there was no doubt this time of the year, the 'height of the viral season', was a difficult time for the NHS. But he said failure to put out the basis of the figures was undermining public trust.

    He added: 'I would want to have very clear evidence rather than 'we think it's more transmissible' so we can see if it is or not.

    'It has massive implications. It's causing fear and panic, but we should not be in this situation when the Government is putting out data that is unquantifiable.'

    Heneghan can fuck off.

    The whole country could die of Covid and he'd be all like "it is too early to draw conclusions..."
    I think you may be misinterpreting his thinking.

    I'm basing it on every other syllable that has fallen out of his mouth. He is a fractionally more restrained Gupta.

    If we followed his advise over the course of the pandemic thousands more would be dead. He disguises his Covid denial behind "not yet certain" weasel words.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited December 2020

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    But probably quite considerably less, if the UK government had mentioned from the start that our global genomic lead may have led us to pick up this change first.

    Almost like a government that's isn't stopping to think about the importance of its international relationships and dependencies.
    No I don't think so.

    It would still be a case of this new scary mutant variant is definitely in the UK and unknown whether in their country.

    Every politician can either close the border with the UK, even if it's too late, and still see it spread ... Or they can keep the border open, see it spread, then get blame from voters saying why did you not close the border?

    The precautionary principle is to close the border either way. Nothing Boris did or did not say changes that.
    As mentioned, I don't agree. The precautionary principle would still be in place, but if people thought this was partly because the UK was ahead rather than behind, that would partly offset it.
    No because that would be (partially rightly) seen as self serving British spin while people here would be mocking Boris for saying the UK was world beating. Even though we are.

    It would not change any facts on the ground. They know for a fact we have this.
    The fact that Johnson has missed a rare genuine opportunity for one of his world-beating claims is part of the problem. The reaction would have come, but it wouldn't have been as fast or unqualified.
    I see no reason besides blind optimism to believe that. What country would willingly expose themselves to a nation they KNOW has a deadlier variant when they don't know if they have it themselves or not?

    It doesn't matter if they probably have it or not, they might not while we DEFINITELY do.
    The fact that several european countries have not imposed air bans as yet should show it's more complicated than that, however much the first instinct might be to lock down. If the announcement leads you to think your own sequencing capacity and scientific prestige might not be as good, you might contemplate other action first.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437

    With a stronger Cabinet I think a delegation of senior ministers would have had a word about extending the brexit transition by now.

    This lot were chosen precisely because they wouldn't show that kind of leadership and good sense.

    Nah.
    This lot were chosen because they wouldn't show ANY kind of leadership or good sense.
    Which is why, when Boris waves the white flag, they won't stand up either for the ERG or whatever they're called this week.

    They'll meekly queue up for electoral slaughter.

    The real question is whether that'll be in May, or whether some Tory PM will bottle it this spring, then have no choice once the locals have declared.

    And to those still believing the vaccine will save the Tories: that's what Churchill thought in early 1945.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    So the UK has now inadvertently cast itself in the role of Wuhan 2021. Not good.
  • Leon said:

    To everyone suggesting Bojo is not up to the job - and I agree his upbeat personality is a bad fit with Black Death - they also need to suggest their desired alternative.

    Quite frankly, we aren’t blessed with gritty, ballsy, smart, capable, determined, inspiring and unflinching leaders.

    The best I can come up with is Jeremy Hunt, which says it all.

    Hunt would be several orders of magnitude better than Johnson. Has a leader ever been more found out by a crisis?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2020

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    You're not suggesting that they should have, erm, lied?

    It's curious that the rest of the world was caught on the hop. You'd think they'd have been monitoring this sort of thing irrespective of UK Christmas plans. Presumably they all knew about this weeks ago, odd that it needed our scientists to be worried for them to also be worried. Almost as though they don't know what they are doing...
    No, I'm certainly not suggesting they should have lied. If the UK is really so much more advanced and does have a track record at picking up other strains that may already be around the world, I am very much suggesting they should have thought about that in how they represented it, though.
    Go on...
    "The public will understand that because of sharply rising cases in some of areas of the country, we will be moving London and other areas into Tier 4. With the UK's global lead in genomic sequencing, our scientists have detected a new mutation of the virus, which may be linked to this changing pattern of cases. Because of the UK's headstart in this field, we have no information as yet as to how widely spread internationally this variant is."
    I'm sure that would have done for trick.

    To be honest, I'm actually delighted that the world has started banning travel - I want us to ban travel! It's just the French that have decided to use it as an excuse to be utterly cuntish.
    It wouldn't be a question of doing any particular trick, just preventing mass international panic and all continental countries bricking up the channel tunnel.
    The precautionary principle would still apply and see countries closing their borders.
    Will everyone else be so keen to close off borders when other countries are shown to have it too? Will Schengen effectively collapse when it is shown to be widely across other EU countries? Let's see.
    Many did in February and March.

    Germany was in part successful in the Spring because they rapidly abandoned Schengen and shut their borders.

    So no shock the same is happening now. It isn't a Brexit or Schengen issue.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    DavidL said:

    we focus on Johnson here as if he was acting in an irrational way on the basis of a whim rather than evidence. It's ridiculous.

    How many of the leaders you mentioned used a Nationally televised event on Wednesday to say this action would be inhuman, before announcing it on Friday?

    We focus on BoZo because he is the one fucking it up.

    Every time.
This discussion has been closed.