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Boris’s Christmas U-turn ain’t going to be good for his popularity – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited December 2020 in General
imageBoris’s Christmas U-turn ain’t going to be good for his popularity – politicalbetting.com

The real political problem with this afternoon’s announcement is that it comes only a few weeks after he had announced a relaxation for five days over Christmas. At the time this was widely criticised and thought by many to be taking too much of a risk.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    And Christmas is still on in Scotland. Back of the net Nippy!
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    You’d think at some point all the shilly-shallying back and forth would come back to bite him, but we’re still in the bre-real Brexit phony war period, so who knows?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Can the trucks get into Kent after the 31st and out of Tier 4? Tragedy or Farce?
  • It isn't, but those wetting themselves with excitement that this is going to lead to a thousand-year Starmer Reich just because he 'called' it 48-hours early need to go and have a lie down.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    Fenman said:

    Can the trucks get into Kent after the 31st and out of Tier 4? Tragedy or Farce?

    Have the restrictions ever applied to hauliers?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    And Christmas is still on in Scotland. Back of the net Nippy!

    Quite significantly restricted tbf, temporally anyway, from what was proposed before. But as much to give the vulnerable some relief as anything.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    The facts changed in September. The clown scored cheap points mocking that his opinion might change just last Wednesday.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.
  • Also, Boris has cover as all 4 nations (lots of political flavours there) were united in supporting the UK Christmas plan until just a few days ago. Which surprised me. I thought that Sturgeon would want to at least do something different just to create a dividing line - but she didn't.

    Those thinking he'll pay a big political penalty for this are misreading it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    It isn't, but those wetting themselves with excitement that this is going to lead to a thousand-year Starmer Reich just because he 'called' it 48-hours early need to go and have a lie down.

    It's not going to do his popularity any good, but it was the right decision.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    At least Boris bit the bullet and actually did something sensible for once.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    Surely Asquith too - rather than Mrs T?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    The most silly thing was the fact that London remained in Tier 2 in recent weeks when it was obvious the crowds of people in places like Oxford Street were far too high.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited December 2020
    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,679
    malcolmg said:

    At least Boris bit the bullet and actually did something sensible for once.

    Good grief - truly the ned of days: @malcolmg not critical of Boris! Fair play sir!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    Also, Boris has cover as all 4 nations (lots of political flavours there) were united in supporting the UK Christmas plan until just a few days ago. Which surprised me. I thought that Sturgeon would want to at least do something different just to create a dividing line - but she didn't.

    Those thinking he'll pay a big political penalty for this are misreading it.

    The Scottish regulations were actually significantly more restrictive for Christmas. It wasn't a cut and paste job at all.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited December 2020
    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    As in missing them
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    In non-Boris clown news I am fairly certain bot GOP Senate candidates will win in Georgia despite my personal revulsion of both of them.

    I am out of the market.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    malcolmg said:

    At least Boris bit the bullet and actually did something sensible for once.

    Good grief - truly the ned of days: @malcolmg not critical of Boris! Fair play sir!
    Yes, the criticism is not of the actions he has taken but the communication and dithering before taking these actions.

    It is March all over again.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    Bodes well regarding all those students that relied on negative lateral-flow tests to then travel home last week.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    The test can't pick them up, or it can't distinguish them?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    Lloyd George faced Passchendaele, Operation Michael and the flu pandemic as well as a massive economic slump.

    All within five years of each other.

    I think Eden and Disraeli would also request honourable mentions on that list.
  • Ebeneezer Johnson! :lol:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Boris looks like a bloody idiot this evening.

    But I am irresistibly reminded of my Bernard Cornwell:

    ‘You made Lord Robin look like a bloody idiot, Captain,’ said Berrigan. ‘But that ain’t difficult on account of the fact that he is a bloody idiot.’
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,548
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:



    Carswell on the libertarian Brexit right also not pleased

    https://twitter.com/DouglasCarswell/status/1340362324130099200?s=20

    I don't often say this but in this instance Carswell is wrong.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    If the thing about it adding 0.4 to R is correct then tier 4 will not be sufficient to stop the spread of the virus anyway. At some point even lockdowns are going to be insufficient.

    We need the AZN/Oxford vaccine, yesterday.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    That does rather beg the question of what the point of this testing regimen in schools is, then.

    Although as nobody was going to be able to use it anyway I suppose the point is moot.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    Phil said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sheesh. Lockdowns have worked perfectly well. Every time we have a lockdown we squash R < 1 and the virus recedes. The trouble is that this is a very infectious disease & when we take the foot off the brake, back it comes.

    What is it with these numpties & their denial of reality?
    Also, we do have an exit plan: it’s called mass vaccination. Have they not been paying attention to the news?
  • dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    I was a child when Thatcher was in power but I am not aware of Thatcher dealing with anything like this.
  • ydoethur said:

    Boris looks like a bloody idiot this evening.

    But I am irresistibly reminded of my Bernard Cornwell:

    ‘You made Lord Robin look like a bloody idiot, Captain,’ said Berrigan. ‘But that ain’t difficult on account of the fact that he is a bloody idiot.’

    Oh, erm, erm, cripes. Erm, oh, erm. Crikey...

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1340360672736100354
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    Phil said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sheesh. Lockdowns have worked perfectly well. Every time we have a lockdown we squash R < 1 and the virus recedes. The trouble is that this is a very infectious disease & when we take the foot off the brake, back it comes.

    What is it with these numpties & their denial of reality?
    A lockdown is supposed to be a means to an end, not an end in itself.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    That does rather beg the question of what the point of this testing regimen in schools is, then.

    Although as nobody was going to be able to use it anyway I suppose the point is moot.
    I'm not convinced. If the test wasn't sensitive to it, there would be no big increase in the SE.
  • IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    Bodes well regarding all those students that relied on negative lateral-flow tests to then travel home last week.
    To be fair most of those students were supposed to have travelled home more than 10 days ago so if they and those they have subsequently been in contact with are not showing symptoms by now then they probably don't have to worry that they have brought a killer home.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited December 2020
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    The test can't pick them up, or it can't distinguish them?
    It appears the former. Only special labs are picking it up, they said just now

    If it is substantively different, can we be confidence the vaccines will still work?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    What mechanism does Steve Baker propose that drove case numbers lower coinciding exactly with lockdown if not lockdown then?

    Divine providence?
  • HYUFD said:

    The Tory right are certainly not happy and want a clear exit plan from the lockdowns

    The clear exit plan is the vaccine rollout.

    So I hope none of them spread antivax nonsense.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    "Meh" sums it up really - the nasty party is well and truly alive.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    edited December 2020
    I think people will recognise the emergency and won't especially criticise Johnson for the decision itself, though the perception that he leaves difficulty decisions too long is becoming very widespread.

    On a more cheerful note, I was surprised to hear Torsten Bell (ex-Darling adviser) and a former adviwser to George Osborne on R4 predicting a tremendous ecvonomic boom next year once people feel it's safe - they were predicting enormous built up enthusiasm for restaurants, travel, etc., and a hiring spree by the hospitality sector. I hope they're right, though I personally think people will be quite cautious for a long time.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    How many Londoners own seconds home in Cornwall, Devon and the Cotswolds?
  • malcolmg said:

    At least Boris bit the bullet and actually did something sensible for once.

    Credit to you for that. But I would still suggest he has not gone far enough in some specific areas. Communal worship should have been stopped and schools remained closed until they knew they were on top of this. I am not sure that 3 weeks will be enough to ensure it is safe to reopen secondary schools
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    Bodes well regarding all those students that relied on negative lateral-flow tests to then travel home last week.
    To be fair most of those students were supposed to have travelled home more than 10 days ago so if they and those they have subsequently been in contact with are not showing symptoms by now then they probably don't have to worry that they have brought a killer home.
    Our term only finished yesterday?

    Regardless my point was about the new variant being seeded all over the country.
  • Phew.. the restaurant we're getting our fancy xmas eve takeaway dinner from is 500 yards from Berkshire and Tier 4
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    I was a child when Thatcher was in power but I am not aware of Thatcher dealing with anything like this.
    Thatcher famously said during the Falklands War, ‘it’s very exciting to have a proper crisis when you’ve spent your life dealing with humdrum things like the environment.’
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696

    HYUFD said:



    Carswell on the libertarian Brexit right also not pleased

    https://twitter.com/DouglasCarswell/status/1340362324130099200?s=20

    I don't often say this but in this instance Carswell is wrong.
    You should say it more often.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    The test can't pick them up, or it can't distinguish them?
    It appears the former. Only special labs are picking it up, they said just now

    If it is substantively different, can we be confidence the vaccines will still work?
    How though does that square with the argument that we know there's a new strain because we're seeing the numbers increase so quickly?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    The test can't pick them up, or it can't distinguish them?
    It appears the former. Only special labs are picking it up, they said just now

    If it is substantively different, can we be confidence the vaccines will still work?
    That doesn't make sense. If the test can't pick it up, what is causing the surge in the SE? They just said the surge was being caused by the variant.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
  • dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    I was a child when Thatcher was in power but I am not aware of Thatcher dealing with anything like this.
    "almost" is carrying a hell of a lot of weight in that tweet.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    Andy_JS said:

    Phil said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sheesh. Lockdowns have worked perfectly well. Every time we have a lockdown we squash R < 1 and the virus recedes. The trouble is that this is a very infectious disease & when we take the foot off the brake, back it comes.

    What is it with these numpties & their denial of reality?
    A lockdown is supposed to be a means to an end, not an end in itself.
    Yes, the end is keeping things running until we can have a mass vaccination program in place. We are talking single digit months, probably only 2 or 3 here.

    A competent test, trace and /isolate/ program that had been operational since the summer might also have worked, but it’s clear that this government is not capable of implementing it, despite the £billions thrown into the Serco’s gaping maw.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    You seriously think these restrictions are going to be in place until 2024?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    Surely Asquith too - rather than Mrs T?
    Rich tw8ts like Goldsmith are not going to be that badly affected when the enormous bills come around.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited December 2020

    I think people will recognise the emergency and won't especially criticise Johnson for the decision itself, though the perception that he leaves difficulty decisions too long is becoming very widespread.

    On a more cheerful note, I was surprised to hear Torsten Bell (ex-Darling adviser) and a former adviwser to George Osborne on R4 predicting a tremendous ecvonomic boom next year once people feel it's safe - they were predicting enormous built up enthusiasm for restaurants, travel, etc., and a hiring spree by the hospitality sector. I hope they're right, though I personally think people will be quite cautious for a long time.

    It’s not about caution or boldness, it’s about money or lack of it.

    Next year there will be desire, but there won’t be much spare cash floating around.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    I reckon this will be more popular than however many months of lockdown would be needed as the alternative after Christmas.
  • Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    No. You don't believe it. The majority of people clearly do and were very much in favour of tougher measures well before Johnson started signalling it. Go bury your head back in the sand where you belong.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    One small upside of the latest shambles is that Johnson's crappy Brexit deal is more likely to get the nod, I think. We're well past the levels of Johnson-inflicted chaos that a nation can put up with.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    RobD said:

    How many Londoners own seconds home in Cornwall, Devon and the Cotswolds?
    That's a very limited subset of Londoners but enough that this will cause problems in the SW.
  • rkrkrk said:

    I reckon this will be more popular than however many months of lockdown would be needed as the alternative after Christmas.

    I fear we will get the ultra lockdown anyway in new year.
  • If Johnson had followed the guidance of PB we wouldn't be in this mess
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    DougSeal said:

    RobD said:

    How many Londoners own seconds home in Cornwall, Devon and the Cotswolds?
    That's a very limited subset of Londoners but enough that this will cause problems in the SW.
    How mightily selfish of them.
  • ydoethur said:

    Boris looks like a bloody idiot this evening.

    But I am irresistibly reminded of my Bernard Cornwell:

    ‘You made Lord Robin look like a bloody idiot, Captain,’ said Berrigan. ‘But that ain’t difficult on account of the fact that he is a bloody idiot.’

    Oh, erm, erm, cripes. Erm, oh, erm. Crikey...

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1340360672736100354
    They knew Tier 3 wasn't going to work. The same scientists he is once again cowering behind told him that to his face live on TV. But the cowards are happy to say its a political decision when that suits them and say its a scientist decision when that suits them.

    Meanwhile my brother and sister-in-law in Aberdeenshire are taking stock of the fact that my sis-in-law's daughter won't be able to travel up with her Grandparents who she is living with in Manchester (15, refused to leave her school when they moved up a year ago)
  • IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    Bodes well regarding all those students that relied on negative lateral-flow tests to then travel home last week.
    To be fair most of those students were supposed to have travelled home more than 10 days ago so if they and those they have subsequently been in contact with are not showing symptoms by now then they probably don't have to worry that they have brought a killer home.
    Our term only finished yesterday?

    Regardless my point was about the new variant being seeded all over the country.
    For most of England the travel home window was 3rd - 9th December. From 9th all teaching was supposed to be online. With a daughter in second year at Nottingham I am aware that both she and all her friends from other universities had got tested and headed home prior to 9th.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    I pointed this out in the last thread. Maybe I should get back on Twitter.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    "Meh" sums it up really - the nasty party is well and truly alive.
    Indeed - how very dare we not fall over prostrate at every setback merely because our opponents think we should. It's a habit that causes them no end of consternation and befuddlement...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    The test can't pick them up, or it can't distinguish them?
    It appears the former. Only special labs are picking it up, they said just now

    If it is substantively different, can we be confidence the vaccines will still work?
    How though does that square with the argument that we know there's a new strain because we're seeing the numbers increase so quickly?
    They said tests are only picking up some of the new strain, not none of them.

    The news channel has moved on and it isn’t a point they have yet come back to. But it might explain the apparent government panic.
  • If Johnson had followed the guidance of PB we wouldn't be in this mess

    What would be different?
  • You (not you but you know what I mean) have to have a very select group of friends for them all to have second homes in the Cotswolds, Cornwall or pretty much anywhere.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,679
    ydoethur said:

    I think people will recognise the emergency and won't especially criticise Johnson for the decision itself, though the perception that he leaves difficulty decisions too long is becoming very widespread.

    On a more cheerful note, I was surprised to hear Torsten Bell (ex-Darling adviser) and a former adviwser to George Osborne on R4 predicting a tremendous ecvonomic boom next year once people feel it's safe - they were predicting enormous built up enthusiasm for restaurants, travel, etc., and a hiring spree by the hospitality sector. I hope they're right, though I personally think people will be quite cautious for a long time.

    It’s not about caution or boldness, it’s about money or lack of it.

    Next year there will be desire, but there won’t be much spare cash floating around.
    A big divide, I suspect.

    There will be those who have lost their jobs or taken pay cuts. Then there will be large numbers* who have maintained their income but have not been spending: on holidays, entertainment, eating out, etc.

    The latter group will be spending big-time.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881
    FF43 said:

    One small upside of the latest shambles is that Johnson's crappy Brexit deal is more likely to get the nod, I think. We're well past the levels of Johnson-inflicted chaos that a nation can put up with.

    Except that the only people who count (as one of us on PB keeps telling us) are the Tory Party and in the immediate future that means the Tory MPs in Westminster. They are already gibbering like a bunch of lower primates with their bendy bananas stolen. It's not put them in a good mood to be, as they see it, ritually mounted yet again by the alpha male monkey to express his dominance and told to go out again to defend his latest change of mind. Especially with the organ grinder off to have an eye test or something. I really don't know what will happen.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    No. You don't believe it. The majority of people clearly do and were very much in favour of tougher measures well before Johnson started signalling it. Go bury your head back in the sand where you belong.
    Quite. The issue is not the tougher measure but the fact that Johnson cannot get ahead of the game. Hancock told the Commons on Monday that there was a new varient that may have been responsible for the rise in cases. On Wednesday Johnson was all over Starmer for suggesting that the Christmas truce may have been a mistake. Now today.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    The test can't pick them up, or it can't distinguish them?
    It appears the former. Only special labs are picking it up, they said just now

    If it is substantively different, can we be confidence the vaccines will still work?
    How though does that square with the argument that we know there's a new strain because we're seeing the numbers increase so quickly?
    They said tests are only picking up some of the new strain, not none of them.

    The news channel has moved on and it isn’t a point they have yet come back to. But it might explain the apparent government panic.
    If you see a written report it could you share it here? Would be very interesting to read what evidence they have for this claim. I can only hope it was just journalist saying it, chances are they got confused.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    rkrkrk said:

    I reckon this will be more popular than however many months of lockdown would be needed as the alternative after Christmas.

    It's not going to be an alternative. We're getting both.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    If ToriesJohnson had followed the guidance of PB we wouldn't have Johnson putting us be in this mess

    CTFY
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    Bodes well regarding all those students that relied on negative lateral-flow tests to then travel home last week.
    To be fair most of those students were supposed to have travelled home more than 10 days ago so if they and those they have subsequently been in contact with are not showing symptoms by now then they probably don't have to worry that they have brought a killer home.
    Our term only finished yesterday?

    Regardless my point was about the new variant being seeded all over the country.
    For most of England the travel home window was 3rd - 9th December. From 9th all teaching was supposed to be online. With a daughter in second year at Nottingham I am aware that both she and all her friends from other universities had got tested and headed home prior to 9th.
    Well that's good. Hopefully that's avoided some issues.

    My only worry is that a majority of those I know who are either at university in London or work there post-university stayed in London because Tier 2 rather than their "home" which was in Tier 3, and only returned "home" within the last few days.
  • DougSeal said:

    I pointed this out in the last thread. Maybe I should get back on Twitter.
    Nah. You don't qualify under Cameron's definition :)

    (In case you missed it that was a compliment by the way.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696
    Carnyx said:

    FF43 said:

    One small upside of the latest shambles is that Johnson's crappy Brexit deal is more likely to get the nod, I think. We're well past the levels of Johnson-inflicted chaos that a nation can put up with.

    Except that the only people who count (as one of us on PB keeps telling us) are the Tory Party and in the immediate future that means the Tory MPs in Westminster. They are already gibbering like a bunch of lower primates with their bendy bananas stolen. It's not put them in a good mood to be, as they see it, ritually mounted yet again by the alpha male monkey to express his dominance and told to go out again to defend his latest change of mind. Especially with the organ grinder off to have an eye test or something. I really don't know what will happen.
    I think we could get poll movements as dramatic as after the extension in March 2019.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    RobD said:

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    You seriously think these restrictions are going to be in place until 2024?
    Two points
    If I posted this six months ago you would have said - you seriously think these restrictions will be in place in December 2020?

    and

    It doesn;t really matter what's in place in 2024. The damage is being done now.

    I repeat how do we get from a 400bn deficit to balancing the books?

    How do we convince businesses they won't be arbitrarily shut down in the future if something Chris Whitty doesn;t like turns up? ask yourself, would you open a pub? start any people to people business whatsoever?

    This is for keeps mate. Your sunlit uplands are not coming back. Not next year, not for decades. Have you not seen the numbers FFS?

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    rkrkrk said:

    I reckon this will be more popular than however many months of lockdown would be needed as the alternative after Christmas.

    I fear we will get the ultra lockdown anyway in new year.
    I think another lockdown is likely, but today's announcement should help shorten it significantly.
  • dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    I was a child when Thatcher was in power but I am not aware of Thatcher dealing with anything like this.
    "almost" is carrying a hell of a lot of weight in that tweet.
    Johnson is facing a tougher situation than any PM post WWII it seems.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    A few days ago, but the CMO saying current tests would be sensitive to the new strain: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55308211
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    I pointed this out in the last thread. Maybe I should get back on Twitter.
    Nah. You don't qualify under Cameron's definition :)

    (In case you missed it that was a compliment by the way.)
    Took me a second to dredge the reference back out from the recesses of my memory though! Nearly had to Google it!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    RobD said:

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    You seriously think these restrictions are going to be in place until 2024?
    Two points
    If I posted this six months ago you would have said - you seriously think these restrictions will be in place in December 2020?

    and

    It doesn;t really matter what's in place in 2024. The damage is being done now.

    I repeat how do we get from a 400bn deficit to balancing the books?

    How do we convince businesses they won't be arbitrarily shut down in the future if something Chris Whitty doesn;t like turns up? ask yourself, would you open a pub? start any people to people business whatsoever?

    This is for keeps mate. Your sunlit uplands are not coming back. Not next year, not for decades. Have you not seen the numbers FFS?

    I knew we were in it for the long-haul until a vaccine was approved and distributed. We are almost there now, thankfully. As for the deficit, a lot of that is temporary, although it will take a while for things to recover.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    The other positive thing is that while Boris is still mocking Starmer and u-turning - the time taken to do so has reduced significantly.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1340346440422440960

    Neville Chamberlain, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill, Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher all raise eyebrows.

    I was a child when Thatcher was in power but I am not aware of Thatcher dealing with anything like this.
    "almost" is carrying a hell of a lot of weight in that tweet.
    Johnson is facing a tougher situation than any PM post WWII it seems.
    And yet he cannot control his utter urge to joke and smirk? I wouldn;t want him as a speaker at my funeral.
  • You (not you but you know what I mean) have to have a very select group of friends for them all to have second homes in the Cotswolds, Cornwall or pretty much anywhere.
    Indeed. And of course millions of Londoners don't live in her rarified world.
  • IanB2 said:

    BBC saying current tests are not picking up many cases of the new variant

    Bodes well regarding all those students that relied on negative lateral-flow tests to then travel home last week.
    To be fair most of those students were supposed to have travelled home more than 10 days ago so if they and those they have subsequently been in contact with are not showing symptoms by now then they probably don't have to worry that they have brought a killer home.
    Our term only finished yesterday?

    Regardless my point was about the new variant being seeded all over the country.
    For most of England the travel home window was 3rd - 9th December. From 9th all teaching was supposed to be online. With a daughter in second year at Nottingham I am aware that both she and all her friends from other universities had got tested and headed home prior to 9th.
    Well that's good. Hopefully that's avoided some issues.

    My only worry is that a majority of those I know who are either at university in London or work there post-university stayed in London because Tier 2 rather than their "home" which was in Tier 3, and only returned "home" within the last few days.
    Fair point. I suppose in the end this is what any Government is fighting. All these rules, guidance and even laws can only ever be forceful nudges to do the right thing. It is physically impossible for any Government in a relatively free society to enforce these sorts of rules no matter whether they call them guidance or laws. So all they can do is try and set out as forcefully as possible what they need people to do and hope they are sensible enough to do it.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    'We are in it until this government is replaced'

    The wonderful thing is that if we both keep posting, we get to see which of us will turn out to be right, and which wrong, in real time. Exciting, isn't it?
  • It's a balls up but I see no enthusiasm for Captain Hindsight who only seeks to make political capital and doesn't provide any alternative direction or leadership.
  • IanB2 said:

    If ToriesJohnson had followed the guidance of PB we wouldn't have Johnson putting us be in this mess

    CTFY
    You know the one thing I really do not like is posters changing a fellow posters comments

    It is not clever or respects another poster's view

    And it is unnecessary

    Stand up and make your own statement
  • DougSeal said:

    I pointed this out in the last thread. Maybe I should get back on Twitter.
    Nah. You don't qualify under Cameron's definition :)

    (In case you missed it that was a compliment by the way.)
    What does Cameron's definition make ScottP?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    "Meh" sums it up really - the nasty party is well and truly alive.
    Indeed - how very dare we not fall over prostrate at every setback merely because our opponents think we should. It's a habit that causes them no end of consternation and befuddlement...
    There's a country mile between falling "over prostrate" and the callous disregard intimated by your "Meh".
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316

    RobD said:

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    You seriously think these restrictions are going to be in place until 2024?
    Two points
    If I posted this six months ago you would have said - you seriously think these restrictions will be in place in December 2020?

    and

    It doesn;t really matter what's in place in 2024. The damage is being done now.

    I repeat how do we get from a 400bn deficit to balancing the books?

    How do we convince businesses they won't be arbitrarily shut down in the future if something Chris Whitty doesn;t like turns up? ask yourself, would you open a pub? start any people to people business whatsoever?

    This is for keeps mate. Your sunlit uplands are not coming back. Not next year, not for decades. Have you not seen the numbers FFS?

    Personally I was saying in /March/ that we were in this for at least a year, if we were lucky and the first round of vaccines worked.

    Guess what! We were lucky & the vaccines worked extremely well; far better than anyone dared to hope. Depending on how fast the vaccine rollout goes, we might well be out of this by the end of March.

    Nobody will care about the debt - it’s owed to a lender who isn’t about to call it in after all. They will care about the deficit & that’s going to be impacted by Brexit, but we’ll also have a post-Covid bounceback boom, so maybe that’ll be lost in the short term bounce, who knows.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2020

    It's a balls up but I see no enthusiasm for Captain Hindsight who only seeks to make political capital and doesn't provide any alternative direction or leadership.

    Keir Starmer called for action and Johnson called him scrooge and he said that cancelling Christmas would be inhuman.

    He then U-turned two days later.

    So spare me the bullshit for once, thanks.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Meh. Let's see what happens in the spring when tens of millions have been vaccinated, the gloom lifts, and life and liberty gradually return to normal. If that goes well, no one will care too much about a necessarily truncated Christmas.

    Meanwhile, at least the Northerners will be (relatively!) happy...

    I'm sorry but nobody believes a word of this bullsh8t any more, based if nothing else on the assurances given to MPs and the public by Johnson's government in the past.

    Today its a mutant strain. In the spring it will be some other reason. For authoritarians, there is always a good reason. If you think the people who lord it over our lives are going to give up that power so easily, well I have a bridge to sell you.

    We are in this for the duration. We are in it until this government is replaced by one that realises that rule by 'not overwhelming the NHS' is destroying our country. Its culture, its economy, its mental health, its future, its liberty. Almost irretrievably.

    I mention the numbers Johnson is racking up, and all I get is insults. Presumably you don;t want to face them either.
    You seriously think these restrictions are going to be in place until 2024?
    Two points
    If I posted this six months ago you would have said - you seriously think these restrictions will be in place in December 2020?

    and

    It doesn;t really matter what's in place in 2024. The damage is being done now.

    I repeat how do we get from a 400bn deficit to balancing the books?

    How do we convince businesses they won't be arbitrarily shut down in the future if something Chris Whitty doesn;t like turns up? ask yourself, would you open a pub? start any people to people business whatsoever?

    This is for keeps mate. Your sunlit uplands are not coming back. Not next year, not for decades. Have you not seen the numbers FFS?

    I knew we were in it for the long-haul until a vaccine was approved and distributed. We are almost there now, thankfully. As for the deficit, a lot of that is temporary, although it will take a while for things to recover.
    'It will take a while for things to recover' is one of the understatements of the year along with Johnson's 'turn the tide in twelve weeks' back in March.

This discussion has been closed.