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The Republicans are just holding on by fractions in the latest Georgia runoffs’ polling – politicalb

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221

    From the Mail link:
    It is understood the Chief Whip was so concerned by the possibility his own letter would leak that he had it formatted in a way that made each copy individually identifiable.

    The implication here is that Guido leaked the leaked letter back to the government. Whether or not that actually happened, it will be a further deterrent.
    I was more amused by this from the Mail link.
    ‘If you violate any aspect of the Ministerial Code you will be removed from your position with immediate effect.”...

    Now that is news. Or an obvious lie.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    DavidL said:

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1339666533115637767


    So that would be...the Tories then? Margaret Thatcher, famously woke.

    Truss has had a pretty exceptional few weeks. I think it was @Casino_Royale who was tipping her for next leader this morning. He has a point.
    It gets worse, if that is teh Tory talent they are well and truly fecked, she is a useless donkey.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    I would venture the one is the cause of the other.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355

    MaxPB said:

    https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1339674249066405889?s=20

    "Brussels has argued that EU level spending should not be bound by common principles set out in a trade deal because such spending is exempt from state-aid rules within the EU. Britain has argued that is irrelevant in the context of an international agreement"

    That's rowing back from what UVdL agreed with Boris.

    Get ready for no deal.
    They keep trying it on.
    Think you mean the UK clowns keep spreading lies so they can try to use EU as a squirrel. The donkeys and UK are going down, only the zealots are left supporting this useless bunch of shits.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    I don’t know how reliable these detailed projections have been, but these for california are alarming. Look at hospital beds, for example. Or a daily death rate projected to reach 600.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/california
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    edited December 2020

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    We should have extended Lockdown 2.0 to be up to Christmas, as I called for at the time.

    We came out far too early, once again the cases were simply not low enough.

    We must get cases down to the 10s before we come out again.

    We are never going to get cases down to the 10s.
    We definitely could if we wanted to.
    Well, we can pursue an elimination strategy. Unfortunately this would involve turning troops out onto the streets, shutting down more or less everything and punishing anybody caught outside the home for virtually any reason with a bullet in the back of the head.

    Nothing short of total, hermetic self-isolation for individual households will stop this thing in its tracks, and that cannot be realistically achieved. We are stuck with it until the vaccination programme gets round enough people to break the chains of transmission. As I said earlier today, trying to suppress Covid is like trying to suppress the common cold. You can slow it down a little with really draconian measures, but those needed to make it stop altogether would kill a large fraction of the whole population. It is hopeless.
    I doubt that. There will be an acceptance that the thing exists. The key issue is protecting the most vulnerable percentage of the population who could end up in hospital plus those who treat them/work with them at close proximity. Despite the buying of 10s of millions of vaccine doses I am not wholly convinced there will be a universal vaccination move by the end of this, it will be similar to flu vaccines where the cohort who are seen as most important to get the jab has widened over time. The rest of us can take our chances. If it was compulsory I'd have few issues getting the jab but if not, I probably wouldn't rush because I have limited consistent exposure to those considered high risk and am otherwise fit and healthy. Speaking to the same stats person who enlightened me on the contribution of schools and universities to the rising test positivity rate (which apparently is the one stat the causal observer needs to pay attention to but probably doesn't), they were of the view that the most critical 10%-15% of the population will be vaccinated before spring. If they can be protected, the hospitalisation rate, which is what really scares the crap out of politicians. is going to fall.

    I've always said since Day 1 of this saga that politicians are primarily driven by the optics of the health service being over-run. Its probably no co-incidence that in Northern Ireland the stories about one hospital having a particularly hard time (and strangely often does be focus of stories about service issues) may have had an impact on the decisions made today. What was less mentioned is that another hospital 15 miles away still has spare capacity.
    10-15%, however long that ends up taking, ought to make a real difference to death rates but the hospitals will still be screaming over admissions. We're going to be nowhere near the end of this until they've at least got as far as lancing everybody over about 60 or 65 and everyone who's medically vulnerable on top of that. The race in that regard is to get them all done before yet another tsunami of new cases crashes on the shore in Autumn 2021. The first half of next year is already a lost cause.

    Only then can we stagger out across the smouldering ruins of the economy and start trying to put everything back together again, though of course that will be hard-to-impossible with the vast numbers of structurally unemployed workers and the ever growing horde of dependent pensioners that what's left of the tax base is going to be expected to carry.
    We'll see, I haven't heard any suggestions that the profile ending up in hospital now is massively different than the profile throughout, i.e. disproportionately older, pre existing conditions, or plain unhealthy ie already largely be in the 10-15% cohort. Having said that I'm not sure how you diplomatically put across the idea that if you are severely obese that you should be in the early list for a vaccine.
    Patients admitted to hospital in England:

    85+ 44,205
    65-84 86,414
    18-64 65,934
    0-17 2,688

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nation&areaName=England

    with over half the English hospital deaths being those 80+
    Is there any data to show whether time spent in hospital varies by age? Number of patient-days is probably a better measure of NHS load than simple admissions.
    Yes, of the 18-64 cohort, is there data on admitted “because of covid” or in hospital “with covid”? ICU numbers would be the best guide perhaps. Is there a breakdown of them by age?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355

    MaxPB said:

    twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1339674249066405889?s=20

    "Brussels has argued that EU level spending should not be bound by common principles set out in a trade deal because such spending is exempt from state-aid rules within the EU. Britain has argued that is irrelevant in the context of an international agreement"

    That's rowing back from what UVdL agreed with Boris.

    Get ready for no deal.
    They keep trying it on.
    I had thought that your threat of "No more Mr Nice Guy" after Jan 1st would have made the EU capitulate....
    Another EU tirade and flounce incoming. Yet to realise those he worships have feet of clay.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Andy_JS said:

    This is quite informative, although it's from July.

    "8 in 10 People Who Have Died of COVID-19 Were Age 65 or Older – But the Share Varies By State

    A new KFF analysis finds that 80 percent of people who have died of COVID-19 in the U.S. to date were age 65 or older, though the share varies considerably by state — from a high of 94 percent in Idaho to a low of 70 percent in the District of Columbia."

    https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/press-release/8-in-10-people-who-have-died-of-covid-19-were-age-65-or-older-but-the-share-varies-by-state/

    Proportionally more oldies in rural areas than a city ?

    Deprived urban poor have lower general health so at higher risk even when young ?
    Second one. It will be highly correlated with number of African Americans in the state I imagine. Black and Hispanics are dying wayyyy more in America.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    HYUFD said:
    From that link, unemployed former MP Paul Sweeney writes:
    Having previously assisted many constituents with their problems dealing with the notorious Department for Work and Pensions, I approached the idea of applying for Universal Credit with some trepidation, knowing the tortuous experiences many others had gone through, but for me at least I found the online application reasonably straightforward, mainly due to the Government simplifying the normally Kafkaesque process under the pressure of an unprecedented volume of applications.

    This was a revelation in itself for me, that all the hardship that so many of my former constituents had experienced in just trying to access the social security system could be easily removed at the whim of the Government, that this insidious psychological warfare against unemployed and disabled people was actually all by conscious design.
    A useful insight. And a good example of why when you are facing the malevolence of the Tory party you can't afford the indulgence of a leader like Jeremy Corbyn who never had a snowball in hell's chance of winning an election or even having the guile to stop Brexit
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355

    Hebridean fisher folk don’t vote for, or donate to, the Tory party. Therefore their interests are of no concern to Boris.

    Isn't Michael Gove of Hebridean fisher folk?
    :D:D:D , in other news I am the pope.
  • Morning all! A fun* day awaits:
    1. Another media round of ministers imploring us not to do the thing they legislated to allow us to do
    2. Another reporting round of hospitals increasingly overwhelmed and teachers collapsing exhausted into the Christmas break. That the Education Secretary had threatened legal action just days against schools for doing the thing he is now instructing them to do isn't lost on them
    3. Another set of videos showing the increasingly absurd queues at Dover / Calais as companies try to beat the no deal shutters coming down and realise they are too late. No deal is already here

    Fun times!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:
  • Also baffling last night was reporting on emergency government funding for ports. The government made money available to build additional border inspection posts - Dover needs £33m and got £33k. Meanwhile, in France...
    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1339774206595244032
  • Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    I took the view I would rather do something that I enjoy that maximise my income. Different choices is all and had to retrain as well not once twice after losing access to two of my chosen careers. Its not possible for everyone in the country regardless of how hard they work to be earning 6 figure salaries. Only so many of those jobs going round
    You get some odd views from some who have climbed the greasy pole and become toffs. I have hazy memories of Max regaling us on here how his Dad phoned an old chum and got him his first job in some bank or other. The boy has done well.
  • Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is quite informative, although it's from July.

    "8 in 10 People Who Have Died of COVID-19 Were Age 65 or Older – But the Share Varies By State

    A new KFF analysis finds that 80 percent of people who have died of COVID-19 in the U.S. to date were age 65 or older, though the share varies considerably by state — from a high of 94 percent in Idaho to a low of 70 percent in the District of Columbia."

    https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/press-release/8-in-10-people-who-have-died-of-covid-19-were-age-65-or-older-but-the-share-varies-by-state/

    Proportionally more oldies in rural areas than a city ?

    Deprived urban poor have lower general health so at higher risk even when young ?
    Second one. It will be highly correlated with number of African Americans in the state I imagine. Black and Hispanics are dying wayyyy more in America.
    Indeed, which helps to explain why the political leadership in the US has tolerated such a high overall death toll. (But white privilege definitely doesn't exist).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
  • Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    Given the absolute state of a succession of Tory education ministers, the need for a strawman is not a surprise.
    Tickles a few prejudices at the same time.

    (FWIW, Foucault is shit, but that is irrelevant.)
    Nobody learns about Foucault at school, I can guarantee it. It's just pure nonsense.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,601
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    But no milk.

    Or sugar.

    Sympathy only goes so far....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,601
    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is quite informative, although it's from July.

    "8 in 10 People Who Have Died of COVID-19 Were Age 65 or Older – But the Share Varies By State

    A new KFF analysis finds that 80 percent of people who have died of COVID-19 in the U.S. to date were age 65 or older, though the share varies considerably by state — from a high of 94 percent in Idaho to a low of 70 percent in the District of Columbia."

    https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/press-release/8-in-10-people-who-have-died-of-covid-19-were-age-65-or-older-but-the-share-varies-by-state/

    Proportionally more oldies in rural areas than a city ?

    Deprived urban poor have lower general health so at higher risk even when young ?
    Second one. It will be highly correlated with number of African Americans in the state I imagine. Black and Hispanics are dying wayyyy more in America.
    Covid as a race war by other means?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited December 2020
    I notice that after opening her speech about her lived experience that Truss then goes and says that lived experience isn't reliable.

    Top work.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    Given the absolute state of a succession of Tory education ministers, the need for a strawman is not a surprise.
    Tickles a few prejudices at the same time.

    (FWIW, Foucault is shit, but that is irrelevant.)
    Nobody learns about Foucault at school, I can guarantee it. It's just pure nonsense.
    Agree. It's taught at uni and for very good reason. Extraordinary that anyone could think otherwise.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    Or broth and a cyclepath map, at least
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    My guess is, they simply got complacent.

    Not that we’re any better. A friend of mine works for one of the country’s largest suppliers of cleaning products. Sales of hand sanitiser are down 75% on the peak, just as the virus is surging. January is going to be absolutely brutal.
    Sales of toilet roll will be well down from the peak, as well, and not because people aren’t using it.
    In both cases just using up stocks.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    moonshine said:

    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    I would venture the one is the cause of the other.
    I thought Germany was an example to us all on how to deal with Covid
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The irony in this is that I too think continental philosophy is stupid and dumb.

    It asks deeply interesting questions about the nature of knowledge and the limits of empiricism and then comes up with completely the wrong answers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    moonshine said:

    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    I would venture the one is the cause of the other.
    I thought Germany was an example to us all on how to deal with Covid
    Germans do love their Christmas markets.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,423
    edited December 2020
    Alistair said:

    I notice that after opening her speech about her lived experience that Truss then goes and says that lived experience isn't reliable.

    Top work.

    Even if her personal experience was a reliable indicator she would have left school towards the beginning of the Major Ministry.

    There have been a few changes to Education since then.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    Alistair said:

    The irony in this is that I too think continental philosophy is stupid and dumb.

    It asks deeply interesting questions about the nature of knowledge and the limits of empiricism and then comes up with completely the wrong answers.

    Not a patch on good, salt of the earth British philosophers. After all what do the Greeks know of philosophy?
  • malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    But no milk.

    Or sugar.

    Sympathy only goes so far....
    My ex (we have a 19 year old son) is always desperate for money. Because I am a sucker and I love my son I have always gone above and beyond maintenance - I've literally taken out loans for her in the past and have chucked bits of cash at her when she needs it. And she does need it - a few years of dramatic illness has left her half blind, barely mobile and unable to work. But, as the boy is effectively doing a gap year I gave £5k to keep him going before he starts uni in 2021, money she has had.

    So I have been sympathetic. And generous. Even after she twice tried to blackmail me for more (I had the police on her for one of them and just called her bluff on the other). But here and now I am newly self employed with a major house move imminent and cash is entertainingly tight at times, so the bank of ex is closed down.

    Have politely but increasingly firmly said no to recent requests for cash. So you can imagine my bemusement when the boy advised that his mum was incommunicado for a bit. The same night she had asked for more cash (as "I have no money I owe him money and its Christmas") she had hired a taxi to shuttle her down to the all night garage to buy fags, had left the phone in the taxi which, when it was called back, had of course not been found.

    Tea and sympathy only go so far. So many people are in dire straights through circumstance and the system has been explicitly designed to be as punitive as possible to them. Then again, sometimes people are just malingering fucks.
  • Morning all! A fun* day awaits:
    1. Another media round of ministers imploring us not to do the thing they legislated to allow us to do
    2. Another reporting round of hospitals increasingly overwhelmed and teachers collapsing exhausted into the Christmas break. That the Education Secretary had threatened legal action just days against schools for doing the thing he is now instructing them to do isn't lost on them
    3. Another set of videos showing the increasingly absurd queues at Dover / Calais as companies try to beat the no deal shutters coming down and realise they are too late. No deal is already here

    Fun times!

    There's going to be a deal. But any business betting on it would be mad.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Turkey coronation
  • As I said earlier, Dover only received one thousandth of the emergency Brexit funds it requested. Others got a lot more. For entirely innocent reasons of course

    https://twitter.com/carryonkeith/status/1339838134071271424
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    The irony in this is that I too think continental philosophy is stupid and dumb.

    It asks deeply interesting questions about the nature of knowledge and the limits of empiricism and then comes up with completely the wrong answers.

    Not a patch on good, salt of the earth British philosophers. After all what do the Greeks know of philosophy?
    Probably not many of them still hanging around by the 19th Century
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Yep, yesterday afternoon's announcement closes my brother's restaurant for the planned Christmas Day meal, normally a huge earner for the year and one for which he had already spent a lot of time preparing, taking a good level of bookings, and ordering food. With just a week's notice. I don't know what arrangements he has with his suppliers, but one or other of them is going to end up with a lot of unwanted turkey.
  • malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    But no milk.

    Or sugar.

    Sympathy only goes so far....
    My ex (we have a 19 year old son) is always desperate for money. Because I am a sucker and I love my son I have always gone above and beyond maintenance - I've literally taken out loans for her in the past and have chucked bits of cash at her when she needs it. And she does need it - a few years of dramatic illness has left her half blind, barely mobile and unable to work. But, as the boy is effectively doing a gap year I gave £5k to keep him going before he starts uni in 2021, money she has had.

    So I have been sympathetic. And generous. Even after she twice tried to blackmail me for more (I had the police on her for one of them and just called her bluff on the other). But here and now I am newly self employed with a major house move imminent and cash is entertainingly tight at times, so the bank of ex is closed down.

    Have politely but increasingly firmly said no to recent requests for cash. So you can imagine my bemusement when the boy advised that his mum was incommunicado for a bit. The same night she had asked for more cash (as "I have no money I owe him money and its Christmas") she had hired a taxi to shuttle her down to the all night garage to buy fags, had left the phone in the taxi which, when it was called back, had of course not been found.

    Tea and sympathy only go so far. So many people are in dire straights through circumstance and the system has been explicitly designed to be as punitive as possible to them. Then again, sometimes people are just malingering fucks.
    I think in the polling industry that is a perfect balanced sample.

    Both factors are of course real and they can feed into and off each other too. Life is messy, anyone who claims it's all one or all the other is deluding themselves but not others.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,601
    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....
  • Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Reading that lockdowns coming in Northern Ireland as well as Wales now. Not surprising. Will surely happen in England soon after Christmas, and will last for months.

    Just about everything being shut down save for food shopping and schools. Well whoopee. Little Annabel's parents may be on the dole and she may be living off handouts of mealy meal from Unicef, but she'll learn all these fantastic skills to do the various jobs that won't exist when she grows up.

    Incidentally, I've just been watching the Director of Public Health for Luton being interviewed on the local news, and describing the move from tier 2 to tier 3 as useless. The main driver of the illness in her borough is people meeting in the home, which is already covered by the ineffectual tier 2 prohibitions that obviously can't be effectively enforced because we don't live in a police state. Not yet, anyway. She says that hospitality has little to do with transmission in the borough, but it's being shut down regardless. The Government and its scientific advisers are clueless and out of ideas.

    None of this is going to work, is it? The vaccines have been developed at amazing speed, but they're still too late. This is moving into proper scorched earth territory. Large tracts of the economy will no longer exist by the time this is over, and the dwindling number of remaining taxpayers will be left buckling under the weight of mass unemployment and the ever-increasing burden of old people at the same time. There's not much of a future waiting on the other side of this for any of us.

    She clearly knows fuck all then.

    Because tier 3 has worked in northern England.
    Burnham probably wouldn't agree with you that there was any value in shutting hospitality.

    Anyway, we'll see what happens when the new variant really takes hold up there. This is hopeless. It's going to overwhelm everyone.
    I'll pay more attention to the actual data than anything Burnham can say.

    Now perhaps you can discuss things with CHB - he thinks that cases can be reduced to the 10s while you think everyone is going to be overwhelmed.
    On average the two of them are probably right
    Throughout there have been three groups of obsessives:

    1) The doomster obsessives - 'everyone is going to be overwhelmed'
    2) The lockdown obsessives - 'lockdowns forever'
    3) The libertarian obsessives - 'no restrictions ever'

    How many of each type a country gets will vary.

    But we seem to have annoying numbers of all three types in the UK.
    New candidate for the “travel back in time and make sure something didn’t happen”

    I nominate the invention of Twitter
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited December 2020

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Yeah, my dog is looking glumly out of the window at a completely grey sky, windy with lots of water in the air. Except there's a tiny patch of brightness out in the Channel and, by remarkable coincidence, this is exactly where the sun is rising this morning. So there's a small bright patch of orange amid dark grey skies. Which is disappearing as I type.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The idea that less well-off people can't afford to buy healthy food is patronising nonsense. It's been debunked many times.

    Which is not what I was arguing, people I know eat healthily what I said is they are unlikely to be exposed to the sort of things cooked in upper end restaurants and so think I will try making that. Instead if they are cooking a meal at home they will stick to tried and trusted things that are still healthy than saying I will make a nice bechamel sauce using gorgonzola and parmesan the spread it on a pizza base with walnuts and pine kernels or what ever. Instead they will buy a fillet steak and some new potatos, carrots, baby corn etc
    Fillet steak: the most expensive and least tasty cut of meat.

    The fad, especially in America, is for Ribeye and T-bones etc. The theory is that the marbling gives greater flavour.

    It's a myth.

    Come around to my place some time and I'll serve you one of my lightly griddled 30-day cured fillet of the finest quality. No sauce. Just unadulterated pure pleasure. You will never taste any steak better. And thereafter you will be cured of the desire to munch your way through animal fat.
    I treated myself to a piece of fillet last week; delicious.

    Just don't overcook it. Anything more than "rare" is unconscionable.

    (Pickled herring update: still not here).
    I had pickled herring for lunch yesterday with dill to add a little sweetness. It was delicious and, since it is going to do today as well, under £3. Its a great fish and I don't understand why we don't eat it more often.
  • As I said earlier, Dover only received one thousandth of the emergency Brexit funds it requested. Others got a lot more. For entirely innocent reasons of course

    https://twitter.com/carryonkeith/status/1339838134071271424

    Tbh I did wonder if it was a simple cock-up since £33 million would make a lot more sense than £33,000 which is derisory. Did someone slip the decimal point?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,601
    edited December 2020

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    But no milk.

    Or sugar.

    Sympathy only goes so far....
    My ex (we have a 19 year old son) is always desperate for money. Because I am a sucker and I love my son I have always gone above and beyond maintenance - I've literally taken out loans for her in the past and have chucked bits of cash at her when she needs it. And she does need it - a few years of dramatic illness has left her half blind, barely mobile and unable to work. But, as the boy is effectively doing a gap year I gave £5k to keep him going before he starts uni in 2021, money she has had.

    So I have been sympathetic. And generous. Even after she twice tried to blackmail me for more (I had the police on her for one of them and just called her bluff on the other). But here and now I am newly self employed with a major house move imminent and cash is entertainingly tight at times, so the bank of ex is closed down.

    Have politely but increasingly firmly said no to recent requests for cash. So you can imagine my bemusement when the boy advised that his mum was incommunicado for a bit. The same night she had asked for more cash (as "I have no money I owe him money and its Christmas") she had hired a taxi to shuttle her down to the all night garage to buy fags, had left the phone in the taxi which, when it was called back, had of course not been found.

    Tea and sympathy only go so far. So many people are in dire straights through circumstance and the system has been explicitly designed to be as punitive as possible to them. Then again, sometimes people are just malingering fucks.
    Nothing to apologise for in being a sucker cuz you love your son. It's a core skill of malingering fucks - to position themselves to maximum effect to exploit such affections.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
  • malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    But no milk.

    Or sugar.

    Sympathy only goes so far....
    My ex (we have a 19 year old son) is always desperate for money. Because I am a sucker and I love my son I have always gone above and beyond maintenance - I've literally taken out loans for her in the past and have chucked bits of cash at her when she needs it. And she does need it - a few years of dramatic illness has left her half blind, barely mobile and unable to work. But, as the boy is effectively doing a gap year I gave £5k to keep him going before he starts uni in 2021, money she has had.

    So I have been sympathetic. And generous. Even after she twice tried to blackmail me for more (I had the police on her for one of them and just called her bluff on the other). But here and now I am newly self employed with a major house move imminent and cash is entertainingly tight at times, so the bank of ex is closed down.

    Have politely but increasingly firmly said no to recent requests for cash. So you can imagine my bemusement when the boy advised that his mum was incommunicado for a bit. The same night she had asked for more cash (as "I have no money I owe him money and its Christmas") she had hired a taxi to shuttle her down to the all night garage to buy fags, had left the phone in the taxi which, when it was called back, had of course not been found.

    Tea and sympathy only go so far. So many people are in dire straights through circumstance and the system has been explicitly designed to be as punitive as possible to them. Then again, sometimes people are just malingering fucks.
    I think in the polling industry that is a perfect balanced sample.

    Both factors are of course real and they can feed into and off each other too. Life is messy, anyone who claims it's all one or all the other is deluding themselves but not others.
    Paradoxically, unless we have full employment, the presence of a few malingerers might even be a good thing if it means those who want jobs are more likely to find them, and companies do not have to weed out the worst. More problematic are those who, often for reasons of illness, have a mix of good days and bad. The systems of employment or unemployment are not set up for them.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Some of the best food and drink in the world comes from the Southern Hemisphere New World. "Protecting" ourselves from it is shooting consumers in the foot.
  • TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    Given the absolute state of a succession of Tory education ministers, the need for a strawman is not a surprise.
    Tickles a few prejudices at the same time.

    (FWIW, Foucault is shit, but that is irrelevant.)
    Nobody learns about Foucault at school, I can guarantee it. It's just pure nonsense.
    Agree. It's taught at uni and for very good reason. Extraordinary that anyone could think otherwise.
    She is obviously on manoeuvres. An attack on continental philosophy, combining anti-intellectualism with xenophobia, is aimed squarely at the Tory party's erogenous zone.
  • Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Hopefully we will agree to let their citizens in visa free. I'd rather not have to get a visa for my next trip to Kyiv Beer Festival, which I might have to if we continue to require a visa and they retaliate. Under the EU visa free scheme we were about the only country to require a visa from them, and £95 is a lot of money for a Ukrainian.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Yep, yesterday afternoon's announcement closes my brother's restaurant for the planned Christmas Day meal, normally a huge earner for the year and one for which he had already spent a lot of time preparing, taking a good level of bookings, and ordering food. With just a week's notice. I don't know what arrangements he has with his suppliers, but one or other of them is going to end up with a lot of unwanted turkey.
    Feel incredibly sorry for anyone involved in the hospitality business this year. December is always the busiest month and has been pretty much completely cancelled this year in the UK and elsewhere. Really hope that between government, landlords and banks, a solution can be found to allow them to trade again once this damn thing goes away.

    Frozen turkey sounds like it’s going to be January’s best-seller!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    I would venture the one is the cause of the other.
    I thought Germany was an example to us all on how to deal with Covid
    Germans do love their Christmas markets.
    I have really missed the German market that we normally have in Edinburgh in Princes Street Gardens this year. Its wonderfully festive with all the smells and sounds and delicious nibbles. Really helps to get you in the Christmas spirit. Christmas has already been a long way from normal, no parties, no meals and nights out, no shopping trips, seeing less of family. Its going to be a damp squib this year I am afraid.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Hopefully we will agree to let their citizens in visa free. I'd rather not have to get a visa for my next trip to Kyiv Beer Festival, which I might have to if we continue to require a visa and they retaliate. Under the EU visa free scheme we were about the only country to require a visa from them, and £95 is a lot of money for a Ukrainian.
    I ***REALLY*** hope that comes to fruition. My wife’s Ukranian, and even a visit visa is a pain in the arse to arrange. Thankfully, she meets the new points system requirements for immigration to the U.K., so we are going to explore moving back in a year or so.

    U.K. citizens can an get a 30-day visa on arrival in Kiev at the moment, no paperwork required.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
    I commented on this yesterday. The bizarre combination of threatening to take Greenwich to court and then, within hours, announcing a staggered return after the holiday was an episode of cognitive dissonance inexplicable even for Williamson. The man is a complete fool.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    Each to their own, you keep doing you Max
    I think the assumption that the working classes are this sea of lumpen types who sit around eating McDonalds and think Nandos is the height of culture bothers me. Most of my friends are from working class backgrounds as I went to a state school and a pretty ordinary university, it's not as bleak as that.
    My experience is different probably because I come from an era when few still went to university. Most of my working class friends are therefore of my age and still on crap wages and just don't have the chance to expose themselves to the finer things in life due to money. Not saying they couldn't buy the ingredients and home make it but they aren't likely to sample it in a restaurant as if they eat out it will be wetherspoons, hungry horse, nando's etc because a 40£ a head meal just isn't cost effective for them. Plenty I know aren't any less intelligent than many here. They merely didn't get the chance to go to university or like me had no desire too and have later in life found that limits them in terms of earning power. I would estimate the average wage of those friends at about 33k and that doesnt go so far in the south east
    The UK median annual salary is £31,461 so £33k is actually fractionally better than average
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2020
    These people are (a) living in the South East (where incomes are higher) and (b) at the peak of their earning power.
    Even in the South East the median salary is only £613 a week ie £31,876 a year.

    Only in London where average earnings are £736 a week does the median salary even top £35,000 at £38,272 a year.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019#:~:text=In April 2019, London topped,the UK (£585).
    Doesnt change the fact that living costs more in the south east where a one bedroom flat will cost you the best part of 1000 a month. 33k in say slough is a lot less than 33k in grimsby
    I’d argue that £33k in Slough = £33k in Grimsby (although it may buy less).

    Still what do I know
  • Nigelb said:

    This is very good (whether you think it a trifle unfair or not).

    https://twitter.com/Susannajd/status/1339654183977422848

    Very amusing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Nigelb said:

    This is very good (whether you think it a trifle unfair or not).

    https://twitter.com/Susannajd/status/1339654183977422848

    Yes that's well done.
  • DavidL said:

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
    I commented on this yesterday. The bizarre combination of threatening to take Greenwich to court and then, within hours, announcing a staggered return after the holiday was an episode of cognitive dissonance inexplicable even for Williamson. The man is a complete fool.
    Worst member of the Cabinet by far.

    I couldn't comprehend what the hell he was thinking, or if he was thinking, in threatening Greenwich.

    For the sake of three days, not months or weeks. Why the heck pick a fight over that? What was to be won? What was the point.

    He comes across as an utter twunt trying to pick fights just because he can. Like Eric Cartman screaming "Respect my authoritah!"
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    But no milk.

    Or sugar.

    Sympathy only goes so far....
    My ex (we have a 19 year old son) is always desperate for money. Because I am a sucker and I love my son I have always gone above and beyond maintenance - I've literally taken out loans for her in the past and have chucked bits of cash at her when she needs it. And she does need it - a few years of dramatic illness has left her half blind, barely mobile and unable to work. But, as the boy is effectively doing a gap year I gave £5k to keep him going before he starts uni in 2021, money she has had.

    So I have been sympathetic. And generous. Even after she twice tried to blackmail me for more (I had the police on her for one of them and just called her bluff on the other). But here and now I am newly self employed with a major house move imminent and cash is entertainingly tight at times, so the bank of ex is closed down.

    Have politely but increasingly firmly said no to recent requests for cash. So you can imagine my bemusement when the boy advised that his mum was incommunicado for a bit. The same night she had asked for more cash (as "I have no money I owe him money and its Christmas") she had hired a taxi to shuttle her down to the all night garage to buy fags, had left the phone in the taxi which, when it was called back, had of course not been found.

    Tea and sympathy only go so far. So many people are in dire straights through circumstance and the system has been explicitly designed to be as punitive as possible to them. Then again, sometimes people are just malingering fucks.
    Nothing to apologise for in being a sucker cuz you love your son. It's a core skill of malingering fucks - to position themselves to maximum effect to exploit such affections.
    "a few years of dramatic illness [which] has left her half blind, barely mobile and unable to work" is malingering?
  • DavidL said:

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
    I commented on this yesterday. The bizarre combination of threatening to take Greenwich to court and then, within hours, announcing a staggered return after the holiday was an episode of cognitive dissonance inexplicable even for Williamson. The man is a complete fool.
    Ordinarily this one would be simple. The man is a fool. The man has been sacked for lying. That should have been the end of him. Then again as his boss has been TWICE sacked for lying Williamson and the other fools have all been welcomed back in, their fealty to Shagger the only criteria that matters.

    In any other time their incompetence and ignorance and hypocrisy and open corruption would be enough to sink them. But thanks to not just Brexit but the footballification that it has fostered people will defend literally anything to back their team.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
    I commented on this yesterday. The bizarre combination of threatening to take Greenwich to court and then, within hours, announcing a staggered return after the holiday was an episode of cognitive dissonance inexplicable even for Williamson. The man is a complete fool.
    Ordinarily this one would be simple. The man is a fool. The man has been sacked for lying. That should have been the end of him. Then again as his boss has been TWICE sacked for lying Williamson and the other fools have all been welcomed back in, their fealty to Shagger the only criteria that matters.

    In any other time their incompetence and ignorance and hypocrisy and open corruption would be enough to sink them. But thanks to not just Brexit but the footballification that it has fostered people will defend literally anything to back their team.
    Well you may have noted that that is not on my very long list of faults, foibles and fallacies.
  • Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The idea that less well-off people can't afford to buy healthy food is patronising nonsense. It's been debunked many times.

    Which is not what I was arguing, people I know eat healthily what I said is they are unlikely to be exposed to the sort of things cooked in upper end restaurants and so think I will try making that. Instead if they are cooking a meal at home they will stick to tried and trusted things that are still healthy than saying I will make a nice bechamel sauce using gorgonzola and parmesan the spread it on a pizza base with walnuts and pine kernels or what ever. Instead they will buy a fillet steak and some new potatos, carrots, baby corn etc
    Fillet steak: the most expensive and least tasty cut of meat.

    The fad, especially in America, is for Ribeye and T-bones etc. The theory is that the marbling gives greater flavour.

    It's a myth.

    Come around to my place some time and I'll serve you one of my lightly griddled 30-day cured fillet of the finest quality. No sauce. Just unadulterated pure pleasure. You will never taste any steak better. And thereafter you will be cured of the desire to munch your way through animal fat.
    Not if you're the unfortunate animal being eaten.
    If you’re the unfortunate animal being eaten you will still desire to eat your way through your own fat?
    "Unadulterated pure pleasure"? After two years as a pescatarian I can think of no better sense of achievement and self improvement available. A few months of getting used to it and the advantages are infinite
    Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself..
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    I would venture the one is the cause of the other.
    I thought Germany was an example to us all on how to deal with Covid
    Germans do love their Christmas markets.
    I have really missed the German market that we normally have in Edinburgh in Princes Street Gardens this year. Its wonderfully festive with all the smells and sounds and delicious nibbles. Really helps to get you in the Christmas spirit. Christmas has already been a long way from normal, no parties, no meals and nights out, no shopping trips, seeing less of family. Its going to be a damp squib this year I am afraid.
    I have been delighted by the lack of Edinburgh Market this year. It completely destroys Princes Street Gardens and makes them an unusable mud bog for a huge chunk of the year.

    Last year the runners of the market took the complete piss with an unauthorised expansion and deeply shonky scaff platform building
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Nigelb said:

    This is very good (whether you think it a trifle unfair or not).

    https://twitter.com/Susannajd/status/1339654183977422848

    It's in the job description to be lampooned when you're at the top of Government.
    A great British tradition.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Some of the best food and drink in the world comes from the Southern Hemisphere New World. "Protecting" ourselves from it is shooting consumers in the foot.
    Which countries have a better mix of variety, quality and price of food than the UK?

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    Each to their own, you keep doing you Max
    I think the assumption that the working classes are this sea of lumpen types who sit around eating McDonalds and think Nandos is the height of culture bothers me. Most of my friends are from working class backgrounds as I went to a state school and a pretty ordinary university, it's not as bleak as that.
    My experience is different probably because I come from an era when few still went to university. Most of my working class friends are therefore of my age and still on crap wages and just don't have the chance to expose themselves to the finer things in life due to money. Not saying they couldn't buy the ingredients and home make it but they aren't likely to sample it in a restaurant as if they eat out it will be wetherspoons, hungry horse, nando's etc because a 40£ a head meal just isn't cost effective for them. Plenty I know aren't any less intelligent than many here. They merely didn't get the chance to go to university or like me had no desire too and have later in life found that limits them in terms of earning power. I would estimate the average wage of those friends at about 33k and that doesnt go so far in the south east
    The UK median annual salary is £31,461 so £33k is actually fractionally better than average
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2020
    These people are (a) living in the South East (where incomes are higher) and (b) at the peak of their earning power.
    Even in the South East the median salary is only £613 a week ie £31,876 a year.

    Only in London where average earnings are £736 a week does the median salary even top £35,000 at £38,272 a year.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019#:~:text=In April 2019, London topped,the UK (£585).
    Doesnt change the fact that living costs more in the south east where a one bedroom flat will cost you the best part of 1000 a month. 33k in say slough is a lot less than 33k in grimsby
    I’d argue that £33k in Slough = £33k in Grimsby (although it may buy less).

    Still what do I know
    A rapid visit to Rightmove and the top two for rent in Grimsby are a four-bed detached for £1250 pcm and a two-bed terrace for £485. In Slough the same money throws up flats - hunting about for a house, a four-bed detached is £2,295 and a two-bed terrace £1300. So hugely more. Looking at one bed flats, Slough's are around £900 pcm whereas in Grimsby it's about £425.

    Renting property in Slough is therefore about twice as expensive, and someone on the same salary is going to have a lot less money to spend left over.
  • DavidL said:

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
    I commented on this yesterday. The bizarre combination of threatening to take Greenwich to court and then, within hours, announcing a staggered return after the holiday was an episode of cognitive dissonance inexplicable even for Williamson. The man is a complete fool.
    Ordinarily this one would be simple. The man is a fool. The man has been sacked for lying. That should have been the end of him. Then again as his boss has been TWICE sacked for lying Williamson and the other fools have all been welcomed back in, their fealty to Shagger the only criteria that matters.

    In any other time their incompetence and ignorance and hypocrisy and open corruption would be enough to sink them. But thanks to not just Brexit but the footballification that it has fostered people will defend literally anything to back their team.
    I don't view being sacked as a bar to being hired in the future. Not learning the lessons for why you were is a bigger issue though. If being sacked was meant to be for life then the way to do that is to expel them from the party and select a new candidate at the next election. That never happened.

    But you claim people will defend literally anything in a reply to David who is someone from 'his team' who criticised him for it. I also attacked him for it (just as I called for a u turn on exam results in the summer). I don't see anyone "footballing" this and defending Williamson over Greenwich on this site.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    I would venture the one is the cause of the other.
    I thought Germany was an example to us all on how to deal with Covid
    Germans do love their Christmas markets.
    I have really missed the German market that we normally have in Edinburgh in Princes Street Gardens this year. Its wonderfully festive with all the smells and sounds and delicious nibbles. Really helps to get you in the Christmas spirit. Christmas has already been a long way from normal, no parties, no meals and nights out, no shopping trips, seeing less of family. Its going to be a damp squib this year I am afraid.
    I have been delighted by the lack of Edinburgh Market this year. It completely destroys Princes Street Gardens and makes them an unusable mud bog for a huge chunk of the year.

    Last year the runners of the market took the complete piss with an unauthorised expansion and deeply shonky scaff platform building
    The Grinch lives!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Pop goes Lewer's potential ministerial career. Caught out by one of the oldest tricks on the book

    The weird thing is what was in it for him? A momentary feeling of amusement? He must realise that Staines is only loyal to himself

    Risking everything for very little gains suggests he was a poor politician and unlikely to get far anyway
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
    I commented on this yesterday. The bizarre combination of threatening to take Greenwich to court and then, within hours, announcing a staggered return after the holiday was an episode of cognitive dissonance inexplicable even for Williamson. The man is a complete fool.
    Ordinarily this one would be simple. The man is a fool. The man has been sacked for lying. That should have been the end of him. Then again as his boss has been TWICE sacked for lying Williamson and the other fools have all been welcomed back in, their fealty to Shagger the only criteria that matters.

    In any other time their incompetence and ignorance and hypocrisy and open corruption would be enough to sink them. But thanks to not just Brexit but the footballification that it has fostered people will defend literally anything to back their team.
    Well you may have noted that that is not on my very long list of faults, foibles and fallacies.
    He was, apparently a competent Chief Whip.

    In other news, the Aussies are in a spot of bother against India. 84-5 in reply to a modest 244
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Some of the best food and drink in the world comes from the Southern Hemisphere New World. "Protecting" ourselves from it is shooting consumers in the foot.
    Which countries have a better mix of variety, quality and price of food than the UK?

    Australia, New Zealand and South Africa for starters.

    Meat here is far more expensive and except for the best cuts like Aberdeen Angus it isn't as good quality. I don't know why that is.
  • malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1339666533115637767


    So that would be...the Tories then? Margaret Thatcher, famously woke.

    Truss has had a pretty exceptional few weeks. I think it was @Casino_Royale who was tipping her for next leader this morning. He has a point.
    It gets worse, if that is teh Tory talent they are well and truly fecked, she is a useless donkey.
    Well, she isn't, is she? Liam Fox was a useless donkey. Gavin Williamson is a useless donkey. Liz Truss has just replicated (or bettered) all our significant trade deals via the EU in less than 11 months, is negotiating several other new ones, has won a victory for common sense over the gender recognition act and is now standing up for the same over fashionable obsessions about identity politics (i.e. making absolutely everything in life about race, gender and sexuality) in favour of a calmer and more evidence based of what really holds people back.

    Does she sometimes exaggerate a bit for effect and not always come across as intended? Sure she does - she's a politician. And it's hard to forget her "pork markets" speech.

    But, she's a doer - not a talker - and although you can lay many criticisms at her door "useless donkey" isn't one of them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    LA has more cases than Spain, currently.
    https://twitter.com/sherlyholmes/status/1339743512640724993
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,833
    edited December 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Some of the best food and drink in the world comes from the Southern Hemisphere New World. "Protecting" ourselves from it is shooting consumers in the foot.
    Which countries have a better mix of variety, quality and price of food than the UK?

    Australia, New Zealand and South Africa for starters.

    Meat here is far more expensive and except for the best cuts like Aberdeen Angus it isn't as good quality. I don't know why that is.
    Australia is very expensive and not as much variety. Wins on quality. So 2-1 UK. Not been to the others.
  • IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    Each to their own, you keep doing you Max
    I think the assumption that the working classes are this sea of lumpen types who sit around eating McDonalds and think Nandos is the height of culture bothers me. Most of my friends are from working class backgrounds as I went to a state school and a pretty ordinary university, it's not as bleak as that.
    My experience is different probably because I come from an era when few still went to university. Most of my working class friends are therefore of my age and still on crap wages and just don't have the chance to expose themselves to the finer things in life due to money. Not saying they couldn't buy the ingredients and home make it but they aren't likely to sample it in a restaurant as if they eat out it will be wetherspoons, hungry horse, nando's etc because a 40£ a head meal just isn't cost effective for them. Plenty I know aren't any less intelligent than many here. They merely didn't get the chance to go to university or like me had no desire too and have later in life found that limits them in terms of earning power. I would estimate the average wage of those friends at about 33k and that doesnt go so far in the south east
    The UK median annual salary is £31,461 so £33k is actually fractionally better than average
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2020
    These people are (a) living in the South East (where incomes are higher) and (b) at the peak of their earning power.
    Even in the South East the median salary is only £613 a week ie £31,876 a year.

    Only in London where average earnings are £736 a week does the median salary even top £35,000 at £38,272 a year.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019#:~:text=In April 2019, London topped,the UK (£585).
    Doesnt change the fact that living costs more in the south east where a one bedroom flat will cost you the best part of 1000 a month. 33k in say slough is a lot less than 33k in grimsby
    I’d argue that £33k in Slough = £33k in Grimsby (although it may buy less).

    Still what do I know
    A rapid visit to Rightmove and the top two for rent in Grimsby are a four-bed detached for £1250 pcm and a two-bed terrace for £485. In Slough the same money throws up flats - hunting about for a house, a four-bed detached is £2,295 and a two-bed terrace £1300. So hugely more. Looking at one bed flats, Slough's are around £900 pcm whereas in Grimsby it's about £425.

    Renting property in Slough is therefore about twice as expensive, and someone on the same salary is going to have a lot less money to spend left over.
    Do I have to live in either Grimsby or Slough? There has to be more to life than a grey town that stinks of fish or a grey town that seems to be 95% office parks.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,244

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Some of the best food and drink in the world comes from the Southern Hemisphere New World. "Protecting" ourselves from it is shooting consumers in the foot.
    Which countries have a better mix of variety, quality and price of food than the UK?

    Australia, New Zealand and South Africa for starters.

    Meat here is far more expensive and except for the best cuts like Aberdeen Angus it isn't as good quality. I don't know why that is.
    Isn't that mainly to do with being in the EU?

    How often have EU priced been below world market prices?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Nigelb said:

    LA has more cases than Spain, currently.
    https://twitter.com/sherlyholmes/status/1339743512640724993

    See those graphs I linked to upthread, that predict every hospital bed in California will be full with Covid patients by mid Jan
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Bloody grim day out there. The dog has glanced up, rolled over and gone back to sleep.

    Maybe it will keep the public from wandering aimlessly around the shopping centres of the plague pits....

    Last day of school for for a fortnight today. It won't surprise me if cases fall rather than rise over the next fortnight as people voluntarily hole themselves at home.
    I have no idea when my Year 8 son goes back. Only a few days ago the sacked liar education secretary was trying to take Greenwich to court over not keeping their schools open. Yet having had the boy come home from the last day of term yesterday afternoon I read that the same liar now wants schools to stay closed the first week of term and do online learning.

    Quite when his teachers will have been able to plan this is beyond me. Then again that Wazzock Williamson wouldn't know a teacher if one was passing classroom-contracted Covid onto him.
    I commented on this yesterday. The bizarre combination of threatening to take Greenwich to court and then, within hours, announcing a staggered return after the holiday was an episode of cognitive dissonance inexplicable even for Williamson. The man is a complete fool.
    Ordinarily this one would be simple. The man is a fool. The man has been sacked for lying. That should have been the end of him. Then again as his boss has been TWICE sacked for lying Williamson and the other fools have all been welcomed back in, their fealty to Shagger the only criteria that matters.

    In any other time their incompetence and ignorance and hypocrisy and open corruption would be enough to sink them. But thanks to not just Brexit but the footballification that it has fostered people will defend literally anything to back their team.
    Well you may have noted that that is not on my very long list of faults, foibles and fallacies.
    He was, apparently a competent Chief Whip.

    In other news, the Aussies are in a spot of bother against India. 84-5 in reply to a modest 244
    I've only seen highlights but it seems a cracking test match with the pink ball making batting tricky.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    I think Charles commented about the uneven fill of these vaccine vials yesterday. Though then, they were in a story about AZN.
    Clearly just a library pic.

    https://twitter.com/39Magilla/status/1339710759861952519
  • Alistair said:

    I notice that after opening her speech about her lived experience that Truss then goes and says that lived experience isn't reliable.

    Top work.

    Is your memory and experience always consistently 100% reliable and objective?

    It's a valuable perspective - one of a number of sources of evidence that should be considered and taken into account - but, it's not an ace card that can and must trump everything else.

    If people start to accept it is then it will be open to manipulation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Agreed

    I invested in Ukrainian agriculture. Just before the Russians invaded
  • malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I see we reached "let them eat fillet" in the overnight discussion of how the poor should eat....

    The poor always get tea and sympathy on here.
    But no milk.

    Or sugar.

    Sympathy only goes so far....
    My ex (we have a 19 year old son) is always desperate for money. Because I am a sucker and I love my son I have always gone above and beyond maintenance - I've literally taken out loans for her in the past and have chucked bits of cash at her when she needs it. And she does need it - a few years of dramatic illness has left her half blind, barely mobile and unable to work. But, as the boy is effectively doing a gap year I gave £5k to keep him going before he starts uni in 2021, money she has had.

    So I have been sympathetic. And generous. Even after she twice tried to blackmail me for more (I had the police on her for one of them and just called her bluff on the other). But here and now I am newly self employed with a major house move imminent and cash is entertainingly tight at times, so the bank of ex is closed down.

    Have politely but increasingly firmly said no to recent requests for cash. So you can imagine my bemusement when the boy advised that his mum was incommunicado for a bit. The same night she had asked for more cash (as "I have no money I owe him money and its Christmas") she had hired a taxi to shuttle her down to the all night garage to buy fags, had left the phone in the taxi which, when it was called back, had of course not been found.

    Tea and sympathy only go so far. So many people are in dire straights through circumstance and the system has been explicitly designed to be as punitive as possible to them. Then again, sometimes people are just malingering fucks.
    Sorry to hear this. Based on what you've said I think you're right to stand your ground and build an independent relationship with your son.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,244
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    Each to their own, you keep doing you Max
    I think the assumption that the working classes are this sea of lumpen types who sit around eating McDonalds and think Nandos is the height of culture bothers me. Most of my friends are from working class backgrounds as I went to a state school and a pretty ordinary university, it's not as bleak as that.
    My experience is different probably because I come from an era when few still went to university. Most of my working class friends are therefore of my age and still on crap wages and just don't have the chance to expose themselves to the finer things in life due to money. Not saying they couldn't buy the ingredients and home make it but they aren't likely to sample it in a restaurant as if they eat out it will be wetherspoons, hungry horse, nando's etc because a 40£ a head meal just isn't cost effective for them. Plenty I know aren't any less intelligent than many here. They merely didn't get the chance to go to university or like me had no desire too and have later in life found that limits them in terms of earning power. I would estimate the average wage of those friends at about 33k and that doesnt go so far in the south east
    The UK median annual salary is £31,461 so £33k is actually fractionally better than average
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2020
    These people are (a) living in the South East (where incomes are higher) and (b) at the peak of their earning power.
    Even in the South East the median salary is only £613 a week ie £31,876 a year.

    Only in London where average earnings are £736 a week does the median salary even top £35,000 at £38,272 a year.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019#:~:text=In April 2019, London topped,the UK (£585).
    Doesnt change the fact that living costs more in the south east where a one bedroom flat will cost you the best part of 1000 a month. 33k in say slough is a lot less than 33k in grimsby
    I’d argue that £33k in Slough = £33k in Grimsby (although it may buy less).

    Still what do I know
    A rapid visit to Rightmove and the top two for rent in Grimsby are a four-bed detached for £1250 pcm and a two-bed terrace for £485. In Slough the same money throws up flats - hunting about for a house, a four-bed detached is £2,295 and a two-bed terrace £1300. So hugely more. Looking at one bed flats, Slough's are around £900 pcm whereas in Grimsby it's about £425.

    Renting property in Slough is therefore about twice as expensive, and someone on the same salary is going to have a lot less money to spend left over.
    That Grimsby 4 bed says £1100 pcm on the brochure.

    Interesting that it is the only one listed. Under "unforeseen consequences", it tells you something what mandating a 6 month notice period for eviction does to market availability, and chances to rent for people needing houses.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Alistair said:

    I have been delighted by the lack of Edinburgh Market this year. It completely destroys Princes Street Gardens and makes them an unusable mud bog for a huge chunk of the year.

    Last year the runners of the market took the complete piss with an unauthorised expansion and deeply shonky scaff platform building

    https://twitter.com/edinspotlight/status/1338828941679878144
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Hopefully we will agree to let their citizens in visa free. I'd rather not have to get a visa for my next trip to Kyiv Beer Festival, which I might have to if we continue to require a visa and they retaliate. Under the EU visa free scheme we were about the only country to require a visa from them, and £95 is a lot of money for a Ukrainian.
    You have to remember that a lot of senior German ex-politicians are “consultants” for China and Russia which has a significant influence on the EU’s foreign policy
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all.

    Liz Truss priced at 21 for next Con leader on Betfair, seems good value.

    Looks like fillet steak for lunch today :yum:

    Dunno what the supply situation is in the UAE but over here there is a literal mountain of meat that is going to waste. Producers planned for a normalish Christmas which of course isn't here. Eating out not happening, big family gatherings not happening on the normal scale, everyone wants small meat portions.

    I've seen several people on Twitter commenting that their requested small joint / bird has been subbed for a massive one. Yes - thats what they have to send you! Suggest people learn the old joys of Boxing Day turkey butties, Turkey soup etc
    Steak here from all over the world: Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA and yes, even some Aberdeen Angus.

    Life is so much easier outside the Common External Tarriff.

    We just ordered the turkey for next weekend, hotels here do takeaway boxes with the cooked bird and all the trimmings, ready to eat. Just add your choice of beverage 🥂
    Sounds good.

    The Common External Tariff is rank protectionist nonsense. In the short term there may be disruptions at Dover/Calais but in the long term being outside of that will be a good thing.

    And if a bit less of our trade ultimately comes from Calais to Dover and a bit more from the Australia, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, USA etc to Portsmouth, Liverpool etc then that seems like a good balancing act too.
    Yes, one of the largest Brexit benefits is going to be cheaper food. Yes there might be some initial disruption, but supermarkets will soon see that they can source their food from a much wider range of countries than previously.

    We can do deals with countries like Ukraine, for example, who produce many times what they need but have quotas and tarrifs limiting their exports to the EU.
    Agreed

    I invested in Ukrainian agriculture. Just before the Russians invaded
    Correlation does not necessarily equal causation Charles. We can give you the benefit of the doubt.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,423
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    Each to their own, you keep doing you Max
    I think the assumption that the working classes are this sea of lumpen types who sit around eating McDonalds and think Nandos is the height of culture bothers me. Most of my friends are from working class backgrounds as I went to a state school and a pretty ordinary university, it's not as bleak as that.
    My experience is different probably because I come from an era when few still went to university. Most of my working class friends are therefore of my age and still on crap wages and just don't have the chance to expose themselves to the finer things in life due to money. Not saying they couldn't buy the ingredients and home make it but they aren't likely to sample it in a restaurant as if they eat out it will be wetherspoons, hungry horse, nando's etc because a 40£ a head meal just isn't cost effective for them. Plenty I know aren't any less intelligent than many here. They merely didn't get the chance to go to university or like me had no desire too and have later in life found that limits them in terms of earning power. I would estimate the average wage of those friends at about 33k and that doesnt go so far in the south east
    The UK median annual salary is £31,461 so £33k is actually fractionally better than average
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2020
    These people are (a) living in the South East (where incomes are higher) and (b) at the peak of their earning power.
    Even in the South East the median salary is only £613 a week ie £31,876 a year.

    Only in London where average earnings are £736 a week does the median salary even top £35,000 at £38,272 a year.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019#:~:text=In April 2019, London topped,the UK (£585).
    Doesnt change the fact that living costs more in the south east where a one bedroom flat will cost you the best part of 1000 a month. 33k in say slough is a lot less than 33k in grimsby
    I’d argue that £33k in Slough = £33k in Grimsby (although it may buy less).

    Still what do I know
    A rapid visit to Rightmove and the top two for rent in Grimsby are a four-bed detached for £1250 pcm and a two-bed terrace for £485. In Slough the same money throws up flats - hunting about for a house, a four-bed detached is £2,295 and a two-bed terrace £1300. So hugely more. Looking at one bed flats, Slough's are around £900 pcm whereas in Grimsby it's about £425.

    Renting property in Slough is therefore about twice as expensive, and someone on the same salary is going to have a lot less money to spend left over.
    The point being made was, I think, that, yes, you'd get more for your money in Grimsby, but you'd be further from London than Slough, and so your life would be an unending series of increasingly futile attempts to fill the London-shaped hole in your existence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is quite informative, although it's from July.

    "8 in 10 People Who Have Died of COVID-19 Were Age 65 or Older – But the Share Varies By State

    A new KFF analysis finds that 80 percent of people who have died of COVID-19 in the U.S. to date were age 65 or older, though the share varies considerably by state — from a high of 94 percent in Idaho to a low of 70 percent in the District of Columbia."

    https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/press-release/8-in-10-people-who-have-died-of-covid-19-were-age-65-or-older-but-the-share-varies-by-state/

    Proportionally more oldies in rural areas than a city ?

    Deprived urban poor have lower general health so at higher risk even when young ?
    Second one. It will be highly correlated with number of African Americans in the state I imagine. Black and Hispanics are dying wayyyy more in America.
    Also overcrowding is probably one of the more significant factors for transmission of the virus.
    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1339654458301706249
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    felix said:

    Surprising to see so many deaths this time in Germany compared to last spring. Any reason for this?
    I would venture the one is the cause of the other.
    I thought Germany was an example to us all on how to deal with Covid
    Germans do love their Christmas markets.
    I have really missed the German market that we normally have in Edinburgh in Princes Street Gardens this year. Its wonderfully festive with all the smells and sounds and delicious nibbles. Really helps to get you in the Christmas spirit. Christmas has already been a long way from normal, no parties, no meals and nights out, no shopping trips, seeing less of family. Its going to be a damp squib this year I am afraid.
    I have been delighted by the lack of Edinburgh Market this year. It completely destroys Princes Street Gardens and makes them an unusable mud bog for a huge chunk of the year.

    Last year the runners of the market took the complete piss with an unauthorised expansion and deeply shonky scaff platform building
    The Grinch lives!
    I will miss the carousel.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    Each to their own, you keep doing you Max
    I think the assumption that the working classes are this sea of lumpen types who sit around eating McDonalds and think Nandos is the height of culture bothers me. Most of my friends are from working class backgrounds as I went to a state school and a pretty ordinary university, it's not as bleak as that.
    My experience is different probably because I come from an era when few still went to university. Most of my working class friends are therefore of my age and still on crap wages and just don't have the chance to expose themselves to the finer things in life due to money. Not saying they couldn't buy the ingredients and home make it but they aren't likely to sample it in a restaurant as if they eat out it will be wetherspoons, hungry horse, nando's etc because a 40£ a head meal just isn't cost effective for them. Plenty I know aren't any less intelligent than many here. They merely didn't get the chance to go to university or like me had no desire too and have later in life found that limits them in terms of earning power. I would estimate the average wage of those friends at about 33k and that doesnt go so far in the south east
    The UK median annual salary is £31,461 so £33k is actually fractionally better than average
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2020
    These people are (a) living in the South East (where incomes are higher) and (b) at the peak of their earning power.
    Even in the South East the median salary is only £613 a week ie £31,876 a year.

    Only in London where average earnings are £736 a week does the median salary even top £35,000 at £38,272 a year.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019#:~:text=In April 2019, London topped,the UK (£585).
    Doesnt change the fact that living costs more in the south east where a one bedroom flat will cost you the best part of 1000 a month. 33k in say slough is a lot less than 33k in grimsby
    I’d argue that £33k in Slough = £33k in Grimsby (although it may buy less).

    Still what do I know
    A rapid visit to Rightmove and the top two for rent in Grimsby are a four-bed detached for £1250 pcm and a two-bed terrace for £485. In Slough the same money throws up flats - hunting about for a house, a four-bed detached is £2,295 and a two-bed terrace £1300. So hugely more. Looking at one bed flats, Slough's are around £900 pcm whereas in Grimsby it's about £425.

    Renting property in Slough is therefore about twice as expensive, and someone on the same salary is going to have a lot less money to spend left over.
    That Grimsby 4 bed says £1100 pcm on the brochure.

    Interesting that it is the only one listed. Under "unforeseen consequences", it tells you something what mandating a 6 month notice period for eviction does to market availability, and chances to rent for people needing houses.
    Elsewhere I'm reading the tales of someone trying to rent a 3 bedroom property on the IoW at the moment - everything is being taken before people even get to see where it is let alone inside the property.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Crabbie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The idea that because one or two people went to a comprehensive school and subsequently did ok for themselves means that they're all world-class educational establishments that honour every child is possibly one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen on this website.

    Sure: but I'm the same age as Truss and went to a variety of comprehensive schools and all our lessons except one were about, you know, reading, writing, maths, geography, etc. The other one was "PSE" - or personal and social education - and was just one period a week.

    PSE was a fairly random bunch of (frankly) shit. The local police would come in and give a talk, for example. And "sex education" ("what do you want to know, miss?") too. In my last school it taught by a bored and elderly teacher who seemed completely disinterested in teaching and let us all chat and generally ignore him.

    Liz Truss is guilty of creating a strawman. And I speak as someone who is normally a fan of her.
    That was then, one of my younger cousins is completely infected with "intersectionalism" and all kinds of other bullshit about how she's a victim because she's female and Asian and that she might be transgender, but probably isn't.

    Schooling is the one reason my wife and I are seriously considering moving back to Zurich even if it is extremely dull. We don't want to put any kids we have through this liberal wanky school system where activist charities encourage teachers to tell children they are 64 different genders. The whole Anglosphere seems to be infected with this kind of bullshit. I fear that this Tory government will make a valiant last stand here but as soon as Labour get in it's going to get a lot worse.
    My children are both in their early twenties. Your analysis was not their experience in a Roman Catholic Comprehensive school.

    Have you been reading Guido and The Daily Mail again?
    He's a bit like Casino Royale sometimes, nearly always very sensible but occasionally go off the ledge.

    We need to bring them back with some common ground.

    Grapes on pizza, yuck yuck yuck, am I right?
    I have no dog in the fruit on pizza race.
    Is there such a thing as a pizza without fruit don't they all have tomato sauce on them and tomato is a fruit
    Pizza Bianco with Gorgonzola, Parma ham, and walnuts.
    Sounds like posh food and plebs like me dont get to eat that we order at domino's
    Eh, I grew up in one of London's most violent estates (so much so that we got relocated and the council shut it down), and I have no need to ever order domino's or anything so awful. Life is what you make of it, 11 year old me on the estate could never have imagined going to the opera but it's one of the things I've missed this year.
    Each to their own, you keep doing you Max
    I think the assumption that the working classes are this sea of lumpen types who sit around eating McDonalds and think Nandos is the height of culture bothers me. Most of my friends are from working class backgrounds as I went to a state school and a pretty ordinary university, it's not as bleak as that.
    My experience is different probably because I come from an era when few still went to university. Most of my working class friends are therefore of my age and still on crap wages and just don't have the chance to expose themselves to the finer things in life due to money. Not saying they couldn't buy the ingredients and home make it but they aren't likely to sample it in a restaurant as if they eat out it will be wetherspoons, hungry horse, nando's etc because a 40£ a head meal just isn't cost effective for them. Plenty I know aren't any less intelligent than many here. They merely didn't get the chance to go to university or like me had no desire too and have later in life found that limits them in terms of earning power. I would estimate the average wage of those friends at about 33k and that doesnt go so far in the south east
    The UK median annual salary is £31,461 so £33k is actually fractionally better than average
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2020
    These people are (a) living in the South East (where incomes are higher) and (b) at the peak of their earning power.
    Even in the South East the median salary is only £613 a week ie £31,876 a year.

    Only in London where average earnings are £736 a week does the median salary even top £35,000 at £38,272 a year.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019#:~:text=In April 2019, London topped,the UK (£585).
    Doesnt change the fact that living costs more in the south east where a one bedroom flat will cost you the best part of 1000 a month. 33k in say slough is a lot less than 33k in grimsby
    I’d argue that £33k in Slough = £33k in Grimsby (although it may buy less).

    Still what do I know
    A rapid visit to Rightmove and the top two for rent in Grimsby are a four-bed detached for £1250 pcm and a two-bed terrace for £485. In Slough the same money throws up flats - hunting about for a house, a four-bed detached is £2,295 and a two-bed terrace £1300. So hugely more. Looking at one bed flats, Slough's are around £900 pcm whereas in Grimsby it's about £425.

    Renting property in Slough is therefore about twice as expensive, and someone on the same salary is going to have a lot less money to spend left over.
    I was just being pedantic
  • IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    LA has more cases than Spain, currently.
    https://twitter.com/sherlyholmes/status/1339743512640724993

    See those graphs I linked to upthread, that predict every hospital bed in California will be full with Covid patients by mid Jan
    Lucky that here in UK, No. 10 hasn't been briefing the press for weeks that the PM was going to save xmas at all costs.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    I notice that after opening her speech about her lived experience that Truss then goes and says that lived experience isn't reliable.

    Top work.

    Is your memory and experience always consistently 100% reliable and objective?

    It's a valuable perspective - one of a number of sources of evidence that should be considered and taken into account - but, it's not an ace card that can and must trump everything else.

    If people start to accept it is then it will be open to manipulation.
    Yes let's start with Truss's memory of her education in the 1980s.

    Glad to see you embrace the limits of empiricism like, checks notes, Foucalt.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    I have been delighted by the lack of Edinburgh Market this year. It completely destroys Princes Street Gardens and makes them an unusable mud bog for a huge chunk of the year.

    Last year the runners of the market took the complete piss with an unauthorised expansion and deeply shonky scaff platform building

    https://twitter.com/edinspotlight/status/1338828941679878144
    David and I have different lived experiences when it comes to Edinburgh. One, Edinburgh as a destination and the other Edinburgh as a place to live day to day.
  • Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is quite informative, although it's from July.

    "8 in 10 People Who Have Died of COVID-19 Were Age 65 or Older – But the Share Varies By State

    A new KFF analysis finds that 80 percent of people who have died of COVID-19 in the U.S. to date were age 65 or older, though the share varies considerably by state — from a high of 94 percent in Idaho to a low of 70 percent in the District of Columbia."

    https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/press-release/8-in-10-people-who-have-died-of-covid-19-were-age-65-or-older-but-the-share-varies-by-state/

    Proportionally more oldies in rural areas than a city ?

    Deprived urban poor have lower general health so at higher risk even when young ?
    Second one. It will be highly correlated with number of African Americans in the state I imagine. Black and Hispanics are dying wayyyy more in America.
    Also overcrowding is probably one of the more significant factors for transmission of the virus.
    https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1339654458301706249
    I am amazed that there are not govt facilities for people to stay in when infectious. Whether they are mandatory, encouraged or just available, they are needed. Someone who is infectious in a crowded household is just left to infect the rest of the household.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    I think Charles commented about the uneven fill of these vaccine vials yesterday. Though then, they were in a story about AZN.
    Clearly just a library pic.

    https://twitter.com/39Magilla/status/1339710759861952519

    Not me guv.

    I commented on fill/finish protocols resulting in overfilling
This discussion has been closed.