Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
You want a deal. You fear No Deal. Great.
But you blame Ultra-Remainers for No Deal. That is preposterous. The government, packed with Leavers, whose Prime Minister fronted the Leave campaign, will be responsible for the manner of our departure, deal or no deal.
Absolutely. The government has an eighty seat majority for a year and full command of negotiations.
It is no ones fault but their own if they didn't believe that the EU are serious about their redlines, and mean what they say.
Just because the EU are serious about their red lines should we compromise ours?
Or if there's no intersection agreeable shouldn't we do what it looks like we are doing and walk away?
Of course. It is Leavers who have been doubting that the EU has been saying what they mean, and mean what they say. Well that bluff is being called.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Cleaner better purer brexit it gets better by the post.
Now, God be thanked who has matched us with his hour, And caught our youth, and wakened us from sleeping! With hand made sure, clear eye, and sharpened power, To turn, as swimmers into cleanness leaping, Glad from a world grown old and cold and weary; Leave the sick hearts that honor could not move, And half-men, and their dirty songs and dreary, And all the little emptiness of love!
Rupert Brooke, 1915
That's the sort of level at which leave fanbois operate. I am just waiting for PT to advise us that what does not kill us makes us stronger.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Given the positions the EU member states have taken on both the Irish border and Gibraltar I am not sure you are calling this entirely correctly, David. But, of course, if the Irish and Spanish are unhappy they can always do what the UK has done.
Personally I'm quite content with how Brexit is going. The EU are being scelerotic and unreasonable, so we have two choices: to give in to them or walk away. If I got a vote I would say walk away.
A lot of people are hyperventilating about the impact of a clean Brexit but I think it will be ultimately much ado about nothing, albeit with some disruption. People living in Kent may notice it more but they also voted for it more.
And if there's some disruption I think people can live with that so long as they think it's all a part of a plan.
But there isn't a plan. "Letting the invisible hand of the market sort it out over a few months" is a plan of sorts I guess, but not one that's going to fly.
Why not?
There's years until the next election. We've just been through nine months of disruption.
What's a few months of flag waving and disruption between friends before we get to the other side of the disruption?
Many parts of the country are still living with the consequences of the disruption caused by the restructuring of the UK economy in the 1980s. These things are not resolved in months.
The country is better off for having gone through the 80s.
And the worst of the disruption will be temporary not permanent.
Mr. B2, a legitimate view, and it remains baffling to me that Labour and other pro-EU MPs didn't back May's deal with a referendum attached. It would've been eminently winnable, and the fact there were three votes would've ratched up pressure in Parliament for it to pass.
Instead they just opposed everything.
Incorrect. May closed off all soft Brexit avenues first ; there was fair cross-party support, and positive noises from Brussels too, for an EEA-type deal.
Not just May.
During the Referendum it was also closed off by Corbyn, Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Johnson and Gove. So why single out May?
That's to confuse campaigning with government. It's fair to single out May because, at the time, there were plenty of other leading Tories who would have pursued a soft Brexit.
Name one senior Tory that advocated a so called soft Brexit during the Referendum.
Soft Brexit is a lie. Leavers and Remainers unanimously agreed DURING the Referendum that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market. May did a lot of things wrong but respecting that is not one of them.
The point about the referendum campaign is absurd, not least because Hannan and others were on television happily promoting a single market exit right from the unofficial start to the campaign, after the 2015 election, to five months before the vote itself. I'm not personally talking about the campaigning though, but the governmental reality. Had Gawke, Hunt, Cameron, Letwin or others been in charge in 2017, a soft Brexit would have been pursued.
Besides, we were confidently told that we would (somehow) be part of the Great European Free Trade Zone. Just without signing up to any of the constraints that entailed.
“There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will stay in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area – and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus – is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP.
Anyway, coming late to the party, what the hell is the purpose of the headline on the front of the Sunday Times today?
"Ministers tell supermarkets to stockpile food"?
Are we in some parallel universe where ministers think that the supermarkets have just been sitting there awaiting instructions and not making their own arrangements in their best business interests? Are they actually trying to send out a message to the public that they SHOULD panic and they SHOULD stockpile?
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
A deal is essential. Not agreeing one will be a total failure. Spain and Ireland have both benefited hugely from EU membership.
Yes, but No Deal is not a stable state. It will be short term, then a Deal. Possibly not until the next government, but in the end there will be a Deal.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
If the EU was a sensible institution then we may not have left it. So we shouldn't be too surprised.
Are you sure that shouldn't be the other way round?
And with that I'm off. For the day at least. I cannot cope with this petty nationalism from Leavers any more. I'm proud of my country, I want to see us all prosper, as part of Europe.
Also from the Sunday Times. If the ST is the Voice of Rupert (it went Leave on 2016, unlike the daily), this government is in deep doodoo...
Johnson had reluctantly sided with the scientists and was preparing for a quick lockdown in the week of Monday, September 21, backed by his then chief adviser, Dominic Cummings. Two key members of his cabinet — Matt Hancock, the health secretary, and Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister — were also supporting tougher restrictions.
But Sunak wanted a different strategy. Faced with dire predictions that half a million people could be made redundant in the autumn, he strongly opposed a second lockdown, which some economists were saying would wreak further havoc on Britain’s already limping economy.
The real mistake here- and in Wales, for the matter of that - was not closing schools for two weeks at half term. That would have made a vast amount of sense on a huge number of levels. In all likelihood, it would have meant less education time lost to the virus as well.
Why Sunak and the others couldn’t see that I do not know.
Yes, and an extra week or two off at Christmas, perhaps with some online teaching where possible.
I think that perhaps we in the NHS are now increasingly part of the problem. 20% of hosputal inpatients with Covid-19 have now caught it in hospital.
Not sure if you saw what I wrote last week about my dad's experience, but it was shocking just how intensely relaxed one our local hospitals was about COVID.
No, I missed it. What happened? Which hospital was it? Infection control is pretty strongly enforced at my hospital, with disciplinary action against non compliant staff. We still have ward outbreaks though. 4 I think at present.
"Anecdote time. My dad hasn't been especially well this year. Last week he managed to do a hernia. Anyway, he went to see his GP who sent him off to the hospital. He spent most of Wednesday afternoon in outpatients as the doctors there examined him. He went back on Thursday - and spent all day there - before they decided that he needed surgery, which they'd do on Saturday once he'd been off some pills. Great, we thought, they're not messing around. Anyway, he goes back for one last check on Friday. This time, a doctor who he had not seen at all up to this point examines him and decides that actually, it's not that bad, we don't need to operate. Go home and let us know if you're in any pain.
My dad's observation about the hospital was that, whilst most - but certainly not all - staff were wearing masks and temperatures were being checked, they seemed rather relaxed about COVID. It seems beyond bizarre that they went through to all that effort only to have someone (presumably more senior) veto surgery. I've been concerned about COVID preventing other stuff being done by the NHS. But what my dad went through shocked me. Surely you get the key decision maker involved straight away so that you don't waste time and increase risks of COVID being spread."
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
You want a deal. You fear No Deal. Great.
But you blame Ultra-Remainers for No Deal. That is preposterous. The government, packed with Leavers, whose Prime Minister fronted the Leave campaign, will be responsible for the manner of our departure, deal or no deal.
Absolutely. The government has an eighty seat majority for a year and full command of negotiations.
It is no ones fault but their own if they didn't believe that the EU are serious about their redlines, and mean what they say.
Just because the EU are serious about their red lines should we compromise ours?
Or if there's no intersection agreeable shouldn't we do what it looks like we are doing and walk away?
Of course. It is Leavers who have been doubting that the EU has been saying what they mean, and mean what they say. Well that bluff is being called.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Nothing written on the Political Betting website caused the Leave vote in 2016.
We are where we are. The UK government has promised the electorate that the UK is going to thrive outside of the EU with or without a deal. We will have higher public spending, lower taxes and reduced levels of debt. It's all there in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. It is now time for the UK government to deliver and to be held to account for the promises it has made.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
I would act in my own economic interest. So I would want tariff free trade with one of my largest export markets with whom I run a very large and consistent surplus. I would want access to the capital markets of London to facilitate growth in my own economy. I would be willing to accept equivalent regulation for as long as it was genuinely equivalent with the option of withdrawing that accreditation if it varied. I would insist that all products brought into the EU had to be compliant with SM regulations but my starting point is that everything produced in the UK meets that criteria right now. I would want to continue to work together on matters like security and other common interests.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
Anyway, coming late to the party, what the hell is the purpose of the headline on the front of the Sunday Times today?
"Ministers tell supermarkets to stockpile food"?
Are we in some parallel universe where ministers think that the supermarkets have just been sitting there awaiting instructions and not making their own arrangements in their best business interests? Are they actually trying to send out a message to the public that they SHOULD panic and they SHOULD stockpile?
Perhaps you should read the story and see what Ministers have said (if anything) before blowing your top about it. It sounds pretty much like the Times deliberately trying to blow up panic buying, so they can breathlessly report on it, causing more, etc.
With no deal in sight, Olivier Le Prêtre, head of the Hauts-de-France fishing council - whose small boats fish 70 per cent of their catch in UK waters - said he feared the French would be overrun by European rivals if the UK cut them out of theirs.
“If it was only French fishermen in French waters, then no-deal might be ok but we have the Belgians, the Dutch to contend with,” he told the Telegraph.
“If they all end up in French waters, there is a risk of overfishing and in a few months we’ll annihilate stocks.”
The corollary of that is that the British fishing fleet is not big enough to maintain current catch levels in British waters. What is supposed to happen next? Will British companies buy trawlers from Spanish operators, and hire Portuguese crews?
I'd suggest strict enforcement to establish new arrangements, and allowing more fishing by UK trawlers for 3-5 years whilst stocks recover further, then we can take it from there.
Strict enforcement is necessary given the history of French fisherman being willing to offer violence.
If Monsieur Macron stops his posturing, perhaps we can come to an agreement now. The last I heard was the UK having moved to offering a 5 year transition period, whilst the EU was wanting 10.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
The arrogance is on the part of the leavers, they are on the verge of getting what they want but still can’t/won’t tell us what they are going to do with it.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Take the f*cking blinkers off Big_G. If the alternative view is a no-deal Brexit, of course it's right to point the sheer madness of this very action.
Alistair has hit the nail on the head. Let's see how this plays out but sadly it is very likely that the course of action that is being taken by this incompetent wretched Government will be catastrophic for this country (in many many ways).
Personally I'm quite content with how Brexit is going. The EU are being scelerotic and unreasonable, so we have two choices: to give in to them or walk away. If I got a vote I would say walk away.
A lot of people are hyperventilating about the impact of a clean Brexit but I think it will be ultimately much ado about nothing, albeit with some disruption. People living in Kent may notice it more but they also voted for it more.
And if there's some disruption I think people can live with that so long as they think it's all a part of a plan.
But there isn't a plan. "Letting the invisible hand of the market sort it out over a few months" is a plan of sorts I guess, but not one that's going to fly.
Why not?
There's years until the next election. We've just been through nine months of disruption.
What's a few months of flag waving and disruption between friends before we get to the other side of the disruption?
Many parts of the country are still living with the consequences of the disruption caused by the restructuring of the UK economy in the 1980s. These things are not resolved in months.
The country is better off for having gone through the 80s.
And the worst of the disruption will be temporary not permanent.
The country as a whole may be, but those post-industrial parts that feel left behind and ignored might not agree. Yes, the worst of the disruption will be temporary, but it will have permanent consequences. But the good news is we have been promised we are going to do brilliantly. It is time for the government to deliver.
Mr. B2, a legitimate view, and it remains baffling to me that Labour and other pro-EU MPs didn't back May's deal with a referendum attached. It would've been eminently winnable, and the fact there were three votes would've ratched up pressure in Parliament for it to pass.
Instead they just opposed everything.
Incorrect. May closed off all soft Brexit avenues first ; there was fair cross-party support, and positive noises from Brussels too, for an EEA-type deal.
Not just May.
During the Referendum it was also closed off by Corbyn, Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Johnson and Gove. So why single out May?
That's to confuse campaigning with government. It's fair to single out May because, at the time, there were plenty of other leading Tories who would have pursued a soft Brexit.
Name one senior Tory that advocated a so called soft Brexit during the Referendum.
Soft Brexit is a lie. Leavers and Remainers unanimously agreed DURING the Referendum that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market. May did a lot of things wrong but respecting that is not one of them.
The point about the referendum campaign is absurd, not least because Hannan and others were on television happily promoting a single market exit right from the unofficial start to the campaign, after the 2015 election, to five months before the vote itself. I'm not personally talking about the campaigning , though, but the governmental reality. Had Gawke, Hunt, Cameron, Letwin or others been in charge in 2017, a soft Brexit would have been pursued.
So had a Remainer that wanted to thwart Brexit been in charge then Brexit may not have happened meaningfully? 🤔
If you can only name Remainers who tried to defeat Brexit - and who themselves all said that Brexit meant leaving the Single Market - then you've lost the argument.
Try to name one person who was a Leaver. Which even May wasn't.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
A lot of people gave the brexit thesis the benefit of the doubt at the time of and for some time after the vote, and have subsequently concluded that their lives have been messed up and impoverished and their country diminished and humiliated by a bunch of posturing idiots. It's not about "not accepting brexit."
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Nothing written on the Political Betting website caused the Leave vote in 2016.
We are where we are. The UK government has promised the electorate that the UK is going to thrive outside of the EU with or without a deal. We will have higher public spending, lower taxes and reduced levels of debt. It's all there in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. It is now time for the UK government to deliver and to be held to account for the promises it has made.
I accept that and indeed it is upto HMG to be held to account over the coming months and years
However, I find it distasteful for some posters to actively encencourage others to stop posting or take a break from posting
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
Not many Canadian trucks going through Dover.
Irrelevant.
The UK isn't asking for a customs agreement. You may want one but we have not asked for that.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
That’s not true . The deal is no quotas or tariffs which is more than in the Canada deal aswell as agreements in areas like energy.
Personally I'm quite content with how Brexit is going. The EU are being scelerotic and unreasonable, so we have two choices: to give in to them or walk away. If I got a vote I would say walk away.
A lot of people are hyperventilating about the impact of a clean Brexit but I think it will be ultimately much ado about nothing, albeit with some disruption. People living in Kent may notice it more but they also voted for it more.
And if there's some disruption I think people can live with that so long as they think it's all a part of a plan.
But there isn't a plan. "Letting the invisible hand of the market sort it out over a few months" is a plan of sorts I guess, but not one that's going to fly.
Why not?
There's years until the next election. We've just been through nine months of disruption.
What's a few months of flag waving and disruption between friends before we get to the other side of the disruption?
Many parts of the country are still living with the consequences of the disruption caused by the restructuring of the UK economy in the 1980s. These things are not resolved in months.
The country is better off for having gone through the 80s.
And the worst of the disruption will be temporary not permanent.
The country as a whole may be, but those post-industrial parts that feel left behind and ignored might not agree. Yes, the worst of the disruption will be temporary, but it will have permanent consequences. But the good news is we have been promised we are going to do brilliantly. It is time for the government to deliver.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
I would act in my own economic interest. So I would want tariff free trade with one of my largest export markets with whom I run a very large and consistent surplus. I would want access to the capital markets of London to facilitate growth in my own economy. I would be willing to accept equivalent regulation for as long as it was genuinely equivalent with the option of withdrawing that accreditation if it varied. I would insist that all products brought into the EU had to be compliant with SM regulations but my starting point is that everything produced in the UK meets that criteria right now. I would want to continue to work together on matters like security and other common interests.
But hey, that's economics, not politics.
The economics is that we are about to make UK businesses less free to export and to hire the talent, while ensuring the UK a less attractive option for FDI at a time when we are already seeing historically low levels of business investment. This has never been about economics.
The most dangerous aspect of this nihilistic Martingale rampage is that quite a lot of more-or-less rational Leavers (and some of the 'I voted Remain but we must Leave!' lads) approve of the gunboats and foot stamping approach, and are reinforced in their 'visceral and limitless hatred of the EU'; the search for traitors is well under way. The only mild sign of doubt is whether to blame the French or the Germans most.
Remortgage the house (again), max the credit cards, another pay day loan, sell the kids into indentured servitude, with a bit of luck we'll get back all that we've lost. We'll still be stuck with the corrosive division and hatred, BUT IT'LL HAVE ALL BEEN WORTH IT!
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
That’s not true . The deal is no quotas or tariffs which is more than in the Canada deal aswell as agreements in areas like energy.
No you're not telling the truth.
Frost has said that if the hold up is no tariffs or quotas then the UK is willing to have tariffs. The UK has not asked for more than the Canada deal. It was the EU that insisted on zero/zero not us.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
They will all be in their bunkers pretty soon for sure
Also from the Sunday Times. If the ST is the Voice of Rupert (it went Leave on 2016, unlike the daily), this government is in deep doodoo...
Johnson had reluctantly sided with the scientists and was preparing for a quick lockdown in the week of Monday, September 21, backed by his then chief adviser, Dominic Cummings. Two key members of his cabinet — Matt Hancock, the health secretary, and Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister — were also supporting tougher restrictions.
But Sunak wanted a different strategy. Faced with dire predictions that half a million people could be made redundant in the autumn, he strongly opposed a second lockdown, which some economists were saying would wreak further havoc on Britain’s already limping economy.
The real mistake here- and in Wales, for the matter of that - was not closing schools for two weeks at half term. That would have made a vast amount of sense on a huge number of levels. In all likelihood, it would have meant less education time lost to the virus as well.
Why Sunak and the others couldn’t see that I do not know.
Yes, and an extra week or two off at Christmas, perhaps with some online teaching where possible.
I think that perhaps we in the NHS are now increasingly part of the problem. 20% of hosputal inpatients with Covid-19 have now caught it in hospital.
Not sure if you saw what I wrote last week about my dad's experience, but it was shocking just how intensely relaxed one our local hospitals was about COVID.
No, I missed it. What happened? Which hospital was it? Infection control is pretty strongly enforced at my hospital, with disciplinary action against non compliant staff. We still have ward outbreaks though. 4 I think at present.
"Anecdote time. My dad hasn't been especially well this year. Last week he managed to do a hernia. Anyway, he went to see his GP who sent him off to the hospital. He spent most of Wednesday afternoon in outpatients as the doctors there examined him. He went back on Thursday - and spent all day there - before they decided that he needed surgery, which they'd do on Saturday once he'd been off some pills. Great, we thought, they're not messing around. Anyway, he goes back for one last check on Friday. This time, a doctor who he had not seen at all up to this point examines him and decides that actually, it's not that bad, we don't need to operate. Go home and let us know if you're in any pain.
My dad's observation about the hospital was that, whilst most - but certainly not all - staff were wearing masks and temperatures were being checked, they seemed rather relaxed about COVID. It seems beyond bizarre that they went through to all that effort only to have someone (presumably more senior) veto surgery. I've been concerned about COVID preventing other stuff being done by the NHS. But what my dad went through shocked me. Surely you get the key decision maker involved straight away so that you don't waste time and increase risks of COVID being spread."
Yes, it sounds as if they should have got the Consultant involved sooner. I would expect to be informed if a patient was being booked for an urgent procedure or major investigation by one of my team. Often it requires senority to make a decision for watchful waiting. The risks of GA in times of covid are not insignificant, and balancing risks is at the heart of medicine.
PPE compliance is universal in my Trust, with disciplinary action for breaches even in non patient facing areas.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
That’s not true . The deal is no quotas or tariffs which is more than in the Canada deal aswell as agreements in areas like energy.
Indeed. What's more, the fact that literally not a single lorry travels between Canada and the EU ensures that there is no possibility of the UK having a Canada-style deal with the EU. We require very different things from a trade agreement with our largest export market.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
A lot of people gave the brexit thesis the benefit of the doubt at the time of and for some time after the vote, and have subsequently concluded that their lives have been messed up and impoverished and their country diminished and humiliated by a bunch of posturing idiots. It's not about "not accepting brexit."
Impoverished?
Get a sense of perspective. We haven't even left the Single Market left and you claim people have been impoverished already? Some giving it the benefit of the doubt.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
The same Spanish Foreign Minister says something more interesting than that in the interview. The purpose of trade agreements is to manage interdependence, not to assert independence. What she doesn't say in this clip is that the European Union as the consortium owning the trade system will set the rules. The central contradiction of Brexit is that people voted Leave to take control, yet the only acceptable outcome is a close relationship with our peers in Europe, which will be on EU terms.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
They will all be in their bunkers pretty soon for sure
Why? I recognise that no deal brings with it more disruption and uncertainty in the short term, but it also brings a lot more opportunities in the medium to long term.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Take the f*cking blinkers off Big_G. If the alternative view is a no-deal Brexit, of course it's right to point the sheer madness of this very action.
Alistair has hit the nail on the head. Let's see how this plays out but sadly it is very likely that the course of action that is being taken by this incompetent wretched Government will be catastrophic for this country (in many many ways).
We have no way of telling just how this progresses and I am not celebrating a no deal, far from it, but in the end we are where we are we of course we should make our arguments, forcefully maybe but not actively want posters to take a break from posting because we do not agree with them
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
That’s not true . The deal is no quotas or tariffs which is more than in the Canada deal aswell as agreements in areas like energy.
No you're not telling the truth.
Frost has said that if the hold up is no tariffs or quotas then the UK is willing to have tariffs. The UK has not asked for more than the Canada deal. It was the EU that insisted on zero/zero not us.
A tariff-based deal on the timescale set by the UK to get a deal done was not possible.
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
> And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
Also from the Sunday Times. If the ST is the Voice of Rupert (it went Leave on 2016, unlike the daily), this government is in deep doodoo...
Johnson had reluctantly sided with the scientists and was preparing for a quick lockdown in the week of Monday, September 21, backed by his then chief adviser, Dominic Cummings. Two key members of his cabinet — Matt Hancock, the health secretary, and Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister — were also supporting tougher restrictions.
But Sunak wanted a different strategy. Faced with dire predictions that half a million people could be made redundant in the autumn, he strongly opposed a second lockdown, which some economists were saying would wreak further havoc on Britain’s already limping economy.
The real mistake here- and in Wales, for the matter of that - was not closing schools for two weeks at half term. That would have made a vast amount of sense on a huge number of levels. In all likelihood, it would have meant less education time lost to the virus as well.
Why Sunak and the others couldn’t see that I do not know.
Yes, and an extra week or two off at Christmas, perhaps with some online teaching where possible.
I think that perhaps we in the NHS are now increasingly part of the problem. 20% of hosputal inpatients with Covid-19 have now caught it in hospital.
Not sure if you saw what I wrote last week about my dad's experience, but it was shocking just how intensely relaxed one our local hospitals was about COVID.
No, I missed it. What happened? Which hospital was it? Infection control is pretty strongly enforced at my hospital, with disciplinary action against non compliant staff. We still have ward outbreaks though. 4 I think at present.
"Anecdote time. My dad hasn't been especially well this year. Last week he managed to do a hernia. Anyway, he went to see his GP who sent him off to the hospital. He spent most of Wednesday afternoon in outpatients as the doctors there examined him. He went back on Thursday - and spent all day there - before they decided that he needed surgery, which they'd do on Saturday once he'd been off some pills. Great, we thought, they're not messing around. Anyway, he goes back for one last check on Friday. This time, a doctor who he had not seen at all up to this point examines him and decides that actually, it's not that bad, we don't need to operate. Go home and let us know if you're in any pain.
My dad's observation about the hospital was that, whilst most - but certainly not all - staff were wearing masks and temperatures were being checked, they seemed rather relaxed about COVID. It seems beyond bizarre that they went through to all that effort only to have someone (presumably more senior) veto surgery. I've been concerned about COVID preventing other stuff being done by the NHS. But what my dad went through shocked me. Surely you get the key decision maker involved straight away so that you don't waste time and increase risks of COVID being spread."
Yes, it sounds as if they should have got the Consultant involved sooner. I would expect to be informed if a patient was being booked for an urgent procedure or major investigation by one of my team. Often it requires senority to make a decision for watchful waiting. The risks of GA in times of covid are not insignificant, and balancing risks is at the heart of medicine.
PPE compliance is universal in my Trust, with disciplinary action for breaches even in non patient facing areas.
Thanks Foxy (and thanks Stocky for finding that!). It was just really odd. FWIW my dad is doing alright. The hospital in question is St Peters at Chertsey.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Nothing written on the Political Betting website caused the Leave vote in 2016.
We are where we are. The UK government has promised the electorate that the UK is going to thrive outside of the EU with or without a deal. We will have higher public spending, lower taxes and reduced levels of debt. It's all there in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. It is now time for the UK government to deliver and to be held to account for the promises it has made.
I accept that and indeed it is upto HMG to be held to account over the coming months and years
However, I find it distasteful for some posters to actively encencourage others to stop posting or take a break from posting
Lots of posters take a break from time to time when things get overheated, certainly I have in the past. I sounds as if @Casino_Royale has reached that point, and I was sincere in wishing him well and to enjoy his break. It is not as if either of us has any influence on events.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
The same Spanish Foreign Minister says something more interesting than that in the interview. The purpose of trade agreements is to manage interdependence, not to assert independence. What she doesn't say in this clip is that the European Union as the consortium owning the trade system will set the rules. The central contradiction of Brexit is that people voted Leave to take control, yet the only acceptable outcome is a close relationship with our peers in Europe, which will be on EU terms.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
That’s not true . The deal is no quotas or tariffs which is more than in the Canada deal aswell as agreements in areas like energy.
No you're not telling the truth.
Frost has said that if the hold up is no tariffs or quotas then the UK is willing to have tariffs. The UK has not asked for more than the Canada deal. It was the EU that insisted on zero/zero not us.
Negotiating tariffs and quotas is very complex and takes time . The UK decided not to extend the transition so whose fault is that.
Truss. If your making a big deal of a trade deal with North Macedonia you have failed.
That would be a valid criticism had it been the only thing she had done.
He did forget we can sell some Japan, perhaps , to Japan in signing a deal that is worse than we have now. Stellar show , a few crappy deals that are all at best equal or worse than we currently have, you Tories are easily pleased.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
That’s not true . The deal is no quotas or tariffs which is more than in the Canada deal aswell as agreements in areas like energy.
No you're not telling the truth.
Frost has said that if the hold up is no tariffs or quotas then the UK is willing to have tariffs. The UK has not asked for more than the Canada deal. It was the EU that insisted on zero/zero not us.
Negotiating tariffs and quotas is very complex and takes time . The UK decided not to extend the transition so whose fault is that.
The EU's. They could have got into negotiating them, could have even copied and pasted Canada's as a starting point. They chose not to.
Mr. Jonathan, May certainly struggled to get her own party on-side.
However, when you've got the 'pro'-EU side lining up alongside hardline Leavers that was undoubtedly an act that could be called bloody silly. Pro-EU MPs have been the best unwitting allies of sceptics for years, from the stupid reneging of the Lisbon vote through to compelling May to get Commons approval for her deal, to then refusing the deal on three occasions, and now complaining that, having successfully removed almost every alternative, we're set for a turbulent No Deal, in all probability.
*sighs*
There's such a thing as nuance. As a middle between extremes. One might forget that, given blind opposition to The Enemy seems to be a prevailing school of thought amongst many in politics.
Who was more constructive , Remainer Clarke or Leaver Boris?
Leaver Boris.
Citation needed!
Boris got Brexit done.
He's taking back control.
He's even ensuring Brexit means Brexit.
Besides platitudes what do you want a citation for?
Because your assertion is factually incorrect, unless by "constructive" you mean he has built more lorry parks around the M2 and M20 and constructed a raft of new customs paperwork and an unnecessary hostility to our nearest neighbours.
The man is an embarrassment to our country. Turning up to Brussels looking like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle, with his unkempt hair and ill fitting suit, His Environment speech yesterday was remarkable, particularly it's conclusion, which was utterly humiliating. And that is just first impressions, what goes beyond is an incompetence based on the inability to make a decision that he fears might annoy his base.
Whenever I go off on one about my utter contempt for Johnson, I find myself with a handful of extra "off-topics". "Off-topic" away, although I believe my post does relate to Alastair's excellent thread header and Johnson's shambolic handling of Brexit.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
They will all be in their bunkers pretty soon for sure
Even Thompson has that Bridge on the River Kwai moment coming.
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
> And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
There is no such thing as complete sovereignty in any trade deal . The fact the government is putting that as its red line shows how delusional they are .
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Nothing written on the Political Betting website caused the Leave vote in 2016.
We are where we are. The UK government has promised the electorate that the UK is going to thrive outside of the EU with or without a deal. We will have higher public spending, lower taxes and reduced levels of debt. It's all there in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. It is now time for the UK government to deliver and to be held to account for the promises it has made.
I accept that and indeed it is upto HMG to be held to account over the coming months and years
However, I find it distasteful for some posters to actively encencourage others to stop posting or take a break from posting
Casino Royale announced that he is not going to post. That was his decision. No-one forced him to take it. It's a shame he has decided to do it, but it's his call.
Mr. Jonathan, May certainly struggled to get her own party on-side.
However, when you've got the 'pro'-EU side lining up alongside hardline Leavers that was undoubtedly an act that could be called bloody silly. Pro-EU MPs have been the best unwitting allies of sceptics for years, from the stupid reneging of the Lisbon vote through to compelling May to get Commons approval for her deal, to then refusing the deal on three occasions, and now complaining that, having successfully removed almost every alternative, we're set for a turbulent No Deal, in all probability.
*sighs*
There's such a thing as nuance. As a middle between extremes. One might forget that, given blind opposition to The Enemy seems to be a prevailing school of thought amongst many in politics.
Who was more constructive , Remainer Clarke or Leaver Boris?
Leaver Boris.
Citation needed!
Boris got Brexit done.
He's taking back control.
He's even ensuring Brexit means Brexit.
Besides platitudes what do you want a citation for?
Because your assertion is factually incorrect, unless by "constructive" you mean he has built more lorry parks around the M2 and M20 and constructed a raft of new customs paperwork and an unnecessary hostility to our nearest neighbours.
The man is an embarrassment to our country. Turning up to Brussels looking like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle, with his unkempt hair and ill fitting suit, His Environment speech yesterday was remarkable, particularly it's conclusion, which was utterly humiliating. And that is just first impressions, what goes beyond is an incompetence based on the inability to make a decision that he fears might annoy his base.
Whenever I go off on one about my utter contempt for Johnson, I find myself with a handful of extra "off-topics". "Off-topic" away, although I believe my post does relate to Alastair's excellent thread header and Johnson's shambolic handling of Brexit.
I don't off topic anyone. It is cowardly, anonymous and rude. Plus it spams OGH.
If I disagree with you then I'll say so to your face.
I disagree with you. Boris is shaping up to be potentially the second best postwar PM and third most consequential.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
They will all be in their bunkers pretty soon for sure
Even Thompson has that Bridge on the River Kwai moment coming.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
A lot of people gave the brexit thesis the benefit of the doubt at the time of and for some time after the vote, and have subsequently concluded that their lives have been messed up and impoverished and their country diminished and humiliated by a bunch of posturing idiots. It's not about "not accepting brexit."
Impoverished?
Get a sense of perspective. We haven't even left the Single Market left and you claim people have been impoverished already? Some giving it the benefit of the doubt.
Impoverished in the sense that I would be impoverished if I had £1000 on Trump to win WH2020 on Betfair. OK, it hasn't happened yet...
Have just caught up on the overnight thread. Why are leavers so angry? Casino positively raging at his victory? Why? Isn't this what you wanted? Isn't it all as you expected? Aren't the government warnings of fresh food and medicine shortages what you voted for?
Because deep down they know the tempest long foretold is about to happen.
Back in 2016 they said No Deal was Project Fear now in 2020 they say No Deal will be fine and they want us to believe them. It will turn Leavers into Gordon Brown when his comments about abolishing boom and bust came back to haunt him during the great financial crisis. There's an absolute plethora of comments that will haunt the Leavers.
Michael Gove privately told a few people in 2017 that if country sees Brexit as a mistake they will ultimately vote to overturn. He's right. That's what's scaring so many Leavers.
We all know Leave would not have won if the electorate had realised No Deal was the most likely outcome, that's why Vote Leave kept on denying it in 2016.
What happens next is the issue. The underlying issues, prejudices and structural failures won't just still be there, they will have been made far worse. The Tories will be seen to have lied and betrayed their people by delivering something worse than the hell that many people already saw themselves in. The mainstream political opposition will offer a return to a form of status quo ante, which wasn't just seen as bad but would be considered a massive betrayal now.
So I fear that England - because it is England and not the UK - will swing to the extremities. Farage (or worse) will lead a kill the migrants party. Corbyn (or more pathetic) will lead a kill the elites party. With what's left of the old political establishment an increasingly ignored "centrist" rump.
I put centrist in quote marks for effect. Too many people in politics forget that the Overton window is dynamic. Narrow the window and extremes of left and right are what previously would have been pretty moderate. Expand the window and the old left and right become the centre.
Telegraph reporting that there will be a cross-whitehall exercise on Wednesday to simulate a No Deal.
It will wargame "“basically, everything that could go wrong in January,”"
Presumably starting with Boris not combing his hair and then walking down from the 10 Downing Street flat "to take back control" ..... What could possibly go right?
There is no such thing as complete sovereignty in any trade deal . The fact the government is putting that as its red line shows how delusional they are .
Canada style FTA sovereignty issues are entirely acceptable.
We've signed already dozens of FTAs on similar terms. The EU are the exception not the rule.
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
> And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
I'm not entirely sure how ceasing to be subject to detention at the behest of the police forces on the continent makes us less safe. I'd say it makes us safer if anything.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
Nothing written on the Political Betting website caused the Leave vote in 2016.
We are where we are. The UK government has promised the electorate that the UK is going to thrive outside of the EU with or without a deal. We will have higher public spending, lower taxes and reduced levels of debt. It's all there in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. It is now time for the UK government to deliver and to be held to account for the promises it has made.
I accept that and indeed it is upto HMG to be held to account over the coming months and years
However, I find it distasteful for some posters to actively encencourage others to stop posting or take a break from posting
Casino Royale announced that he is not going to post. That was his decision. No-one forced him to take it. It's a shame he has decided to do it, but it's his call.
I know he’s been around forever, and I have not, but since I started posting here more regularly I’ve not seen anything other than unhinged ranting from said gent. I assume there’s a more thoughtful Conservative commentator in there somewhere that I’ve not seen because he’s been so exercised by Brexit?
Apparently Norway has threatened to close its waters to UK and EU fishermen if there's no deal. Maybe journalists could goad Norwegian ministers into describing how they would enforce this closure, and when they respond that it'll be in the same way as normal (ie their navy) we can all accuse them of declaring war on everybody
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
The same Spanish Foreign Minister says something more interesting than that in the interview. The purpose of trade agreements is to manage interdependence, not to assert independence. What she doesn't say in this clip is that the European Union as the consortium owning the trade system will set the rules. The central contradiction of Brexit is that people voted Leave to take control, yet the only acceptable outcome is a close relationship with our peers in Europe, which will be on EU terms.
There is no need at all to have a close relationship with the EU.
Countries all over the globe trade with nothing more than an FTA. Or on WTO terms.
Indeed. North Korea springs to mind. Point is, the UK has no Plan B to European integration. Leavers have never had a plan or one workable and compelling vision for the future that people can rally around. Hence the current mess.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
A deal is essential. Not agreeing one will be a total failure. Spain and Ireland have both benefited hugely from EU membership.
I don't know about essential but it is certainly highly desirable. I agree that Spain and Ireland have benefited from their EU membership but the price that they pay is having decisions made that they play no part in and which are contrary to their interests.
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
A lot of people gave the brexit thesis the benefit of the doubt at the time of and for some time after the vote, and have subsequently concluded that their lives have been messed up and impoverished and their country diminished and humiliated by a bunch of posturing idiots. It's not about "not accepting brexit."
Impoverished?
Get a sense of perspective. We haven't even left the Single Market left and you claim people have been impoverished already? Some giving it the benefit of the doubt.
Impoverished in the sense that I would be impoverished if I had £1000 on Trump to win WH2020 on Betfair. OK, it hasn't happened yet...
So nobody has been impoverished yet.
But you have "given Brexit the benefit of the doubt", how kind.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
All EU is asking for is for us not to undercut their standards and employment terms and we can have one.
Anyway, coming late to the party, what the hell is the purpose of the headline on the front of the Sunday Times today?
"Ministers tell supermarkets to stockpile food"?
Are we in some parallel universe where ministers think that the supermarkets have just been sitting there awaiting instructions and not making their own arrangements in their best business interests? Are they actually trying to send out a message to the public that they SHOULD panic and they SHOULD stockpile?
1. I kept reading on here mainly from Philip that my detailed descriptions of why food disruption was coming and would be significant was Not True. The government haven't had his memo 2. Supermarkets cannot stockpile fresh food. It goes off. 3. The supermarkets cannot stockpile anything. Anyone heard of Christmas? Warehouses - logistics distribution centres, supermarket distribution centres, store warehouses, front of store racking / deal pallet spaces - it's all rammed with stock as it is every year. Add in Covid and Brexit worries and the situation is the worst it's been for years. Supermarkets can't stockpile as There is nowhere to put it until after Christmas
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
> And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
I'm not entirely sure how ceasing to be subject to detention at the behest of the police forces on the continent makes us less safe. I'd say it makes us safer if anything.
I suspect that there are quite a lot of Poles in the UK who might feel that way. They form a significant part of the European Arrest Warrant extraditions and it is often for "offences" such as not paying their taxes before they left. They will be more secure here afterwards.
But the EAW is on balance a good thing. It has been very helpful in dealing with international crime and in particular arseholes who think it is ok to go to other countries and ignore their laws. My confusion is what such cooperation has to do with a trade agreement. We could agree this level of cooperation without any trade deal whatsoever.
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
> And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
Legally those areas come under the ECJ which the government refused to have anything to do with. However I expect some fudge might be possible for partial access and expect a Security deal will be reached regardless of what happens in other areas .
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
Mr. Jonathan, May certainly struggled to get her own party on-side.
However, when you've got the 'pro'-EU side lining up alongside hardline Leavers that was undoubtedly an act that could be called bloody silly. Pro-EU MPs have been the best unwitting allies of sceptics for years, from the stupid reneging of the Lisbon vote through to compelling May to get Commons approval for her deal, to then refusing the deal on three occasions, and now complaining that, having successfully removed almost every alternative, we're set for a turbulent No Deal, in all probability.
*sighs*
There's such a thing as nuance. As a middle between extremes. One might forget that, given blind opposition to The Enemy seems to be a prevailing school of thought amongst many in politics.
Who was more constructive , Remainer Clarke or Leaver Boris?
Leaver Boris.
Citation needed!
Boris got Brexit done.
He's taking back control.
He's even ensuring Brexit means Brexit.
Besides platitudes what do you want a citation for?
Because your assertion is factually incorrect, unless by "constructive" you mean he has built more lorry parks around the M2 and M20 and constructed a raft of new customs paperwork and an unnecessary hostility to our nearest neighbours.
The man is an embarrassment to our country. Turning up to Brussels looking like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle, with his unkempt hair and ill fitting suit, His Environment speech yesterday was remarkable, particularly it's conclusion, which was utterly humiliating. And that is just first impressions, what goes beyond is an incompetence based on the inability to make a decision that he fears might annoy his base.
Whenever I go off on one about my utter contempt for Johnson, I find myself with a handful of extra "off-topics". "Off-topic" away, although I believe my post does relate to Alastair's excellent thread header and Johnson's shambolic handling of Brexit.
I don't off topic anyone. It is cowardly, anonymous and rude. Plus it spams OGH.
If I disagree with you then I'll say so to your face.
I disagree with you. Boris is shaping up to be potentially the second best postwar PM and third most consequential.
I wasn't suggesting you would "off-topic".
We will have to agree to disagree about Johnson's legacy. I didn't like Mrs Thatcher, but I can understand why people did rate her so highly. As for Johnson, I cannot see past the Fred Scuttle, half-wittery.
With no deal in sight, Olivier Le Prêtre, head of the Hauts-de-France fishing council - whose small boats fish 70 per cent of their catch in UK waters - said he feared the French would be overrun by European rivals if the UK cut them out of theirs.
“If it was only French fishermen in French waters, then no-deal might be ok but we have the Belgians, the Dutch to contend with,” he told the Telegraph.
“If they all end up in French waters, there is a risk of overfishing and in a few months we’ll annihilate stocks.”
The corollary of that is that the British fishing fleet is not big enough to maintain current catch levels in British waters. What is supposed to happen next? Will British companies buy trawlers from Spanish operators, and hire Portuguese crews?
I'd suggest strict enforcement to establish new arrangements, and allowing more fishing by UK trawlers for 3-5 years whilst stocks recover further, then we can take it from there.
Strict enforcement is necessary given the history of French fisherman being willing to offer violence.
If Monsieur Macron stops his posturing, perhaps we can come to an agreement now. The last I heard was the UK having moved to offering a 5 year transition period, whilst the EU was wanting 10.
What UK trawlers? That's the point. If we do not have the capacity we can sell quotas but how does that help the brave UK fisherfolk Brexit is supposed to rescue?
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
> And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
Brexit means Brexit - suck it up!
If the EU insists on such self harm we cannot stop them. Hopefully they will come to their senses at some point, if not by 31st December.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
Lunchtime call between UK and EU apparently..
But those who make the actual decisions in the EU have decided. Britain needs to be punished for its temerity in leaving the project. The views of those directly affected like Eire and Spain can be disregarded as usual. There is no evidence at all of any activity consistent with a last minute compromise.
I wanted and expected a deal but I have called it wrong because I focused on the economics rather than the politics. Its unfortunate but the consequences will be far more modest than the thread header and others suggest.
Absurd. Britain doesn't want just first to leave, but then also to retain privileges beyond those of other third-countries for the EU. What would be your own response in its situation ?
Britain doesn't want to retain any such privileges that's a lie.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
All EU is asking for is for us not to undercut their standards and employment terms and we can have one.
Employment terms like the EU having people working for €1.95 per hour?
I will pass on them having a say on our domestic laws. Employment should be a matter for our Parliament and employment contracts, none of their business.
With no deal in sight, Olivier Le Prêtre, head of the Hauts-de-France fishing council - whose small boats fish 70 per cent of their catch in UK waters - said he feared the French would be overrun by European rivals if the UK cut them out of theirs.
“If it was only French fishermen in French waters, then no-deal might be ok but we have the Belgians, the Dutch to contend with,” he told the Telegraph.
“If they all end up in French waters, there is a risk of overfishing and in a few months we’ll annihilate stocks.”
The corollary of that is that the British fishing fleet is not big enough to maintain current catch levels in British waters. What is supposed to happen next? Will British companies buy trawlers from Spanish operators, and hire Portuguese crews?
I'd suggest strict enforcement to establish new arrangements, and allowing more fishing by UK trawlers for 3-5 years whilst stocks recover further, then we can take it from there.
Strict enforcement is necessary given the history of French fisherman being willing to offer violence.
If Monsieur Macron stops his posturing, perhaps we can come to an agreement now. The last I heard was the UK having moved to offering a 5 year transition period, whilst the EU was wanting 10.
What UK trawlers? That's the point. If we do not have the capacity we can sell quotas but how does that help the brave UK fisherfolk Brexit is supposed to rescue?
What do you mean "what trawlers?" Next thing you know you'll be pointing out that never mind not having enough boats to catch these repatriated fish that many of the boats we do have rely on migrant labour...
Mr. Jonathan, May certainly struggled to get her own party on-side.
However, when you've got the 'pro'-EU side lining up alongside hardline Leavers that was undoubtedly an act that could be called bloody silly. Pro-EU MPs have been the best unwitting allies of sceptics for years, from the stupid reneging of the Lisbon vote through to compelling May to get Commons approval for her deal, to then refusing the deal on three occasions, and now complaining that, having successfully removed almost every alternative, we're set for a turbulent No Deal, in all probability.
*sighs*
There's such a thing as nuance. As a middle between extremes. One might forget that, given blind opposition to The Enemy seems to be a prevailing school of thought amongst many in politics.
Who was more constructive , Remainer Clarke or Leaver Boris?
Leaver Boris.
Citation needed!
Boris got Brexit done.
He's taking back control.
He's even ensuring Brexit means Brexit.
Besides platitudes what do you want a citation for?
Because your assertion is factually incorrect, unless by "constructive" you mean he has built more lorry parks around the M2 and M20 and constructed a raft of new customs paperwork and an unnecessary hostility to our nearest neighbours.
The man is an embarrassment to our country. Turning up to Brussels looking like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle, with his unkempt hair and ill fitting suit, His Environment speech yesterday was remarkable, particularly it's conclusion, which was utterly humiliating. And that is just first impressions, what goes beyond is an incompetence based on the inability to make a decision that he fears might annoy his base.
Whenever I go off on one about my utter contempt for Johnson, I find myself with a handful of extra "off-topics". "Off-topic" away, although I believe my post does relate to Alastair's excellent thread header and Johnson's shambolic handling of Brexit.
I don't off topic anyone. It is cowardly, anonymous and rude. Plus it spams OGH.
If I disagree with you then I'll say so to your face.
I disagree with you. Boris is shaping up to be potentially the second best postwar PM and third most consequential.
I have never knowingly or intentionally off topicked anyone. I can't deny it might not have happened by accident occasionally, especially on my phone.
Mr. Jonathan, May certainly struggled to get her own party on-side.
However, when you've got the 'pro'-EU side lining up alongside hardline Leavers that was undoubtedly an act that could be called bloody silly. Pro-EU MPs have been the best unwitting allies of sceptics for years, from the stupid reneging of the Lisbon vote through to compelling May to get Commons approval for her deal, to then refusing the deal on three occasions, and now complaining that, having successfully removed almost every alternative, we're set for a turbulent No Deal, in all probability.
*sighs*
There's such a thing as nuance. As a middle between extremes. One might forget that, given blind opposition to The Enemy seems to be a prevailing school of thought amongst many in politics.
Who was more constructive , Remainer Clarke or Leaver Boris?
Leaver Boris.
Citation needed!
Boris got Brexit done.
He's taking back control.
He's even ensuring Brexit means Brexit.
Besides platitudes what do you want a citation for?
Because your assertion is factually incorrect, unless by "constructive" you mean he has built more lorry parks around the M2 and M20 and constructed a raft of new customs paperwork and an unnecessary hostility to our nearest neighbours.
The man is an embarrassment to our country. Turning up to Brussels looking like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle, with his unkempt hair and ill fitting suit, His Environment speech yesterday was remarkable, particularly it's conclusion, which was utterly humiliating. And that is just first impressions, what goes beyond is an incompetence based on the inability to make a decision that he fears might annoy his base.
Whenever I go off on one about my utter contempt for Johnson, I find myself with a handful of extra "off-topics". "Off-topic" away, although I believe my post does relate to Alastair's excellent thread header and Johnson's shambolic handling of Brexit.
I don't off topic anyone. It is cowardly, anonymous and rude. Plus it spams OGH.
If I disagree with you then I'll say so to your face.
I disagree with you. Boris is shaping up to be potentially the second best postwar PM and third most consequential.
With no deal in sight, Olivier Le Prêtre, head of the Hauts-de-France fishing council - whose small boats fish 70 per cent of their catch in UK waters - said he feared the French would be overrun by European rivals if the UK cut them out of theirs.
“If it was only French fishermen in French waters, then no-deal might be ok but we have the Belgians, the Dutch to contend with,” he told the Telegraph.
“If they all end up in French waters, there is a risk of overfishing and in a few months we’ll annihilate stocks.”
The corollary of that is that the British fishing fleet is not big enough to maintain current catch levels in British waters. What is supposed to happen next? Will British companies buy trawlers from Spanish operators, and hire Portuguese crews?
You know, allowing some recovery of fish stocks whilst the UK fleet built up capacity is not necessarily the worst outcome from a conservation point of view but removal of the current restrictions on the number of days that the UK fleet is allowed to fish will help quite a bit.
Apparently Norway has threatened to close its waters to UK and EU fishermen if there's no deal. Maybe journalists could goad Norwegian ministers into describing how they would enforce this closure, and when they respond that it'll be in the same way as normal (ie their navy) we can all accuse them of declaring war on everybody
Fishing policy is a horror story across the board. Brexit just adds to the problems but doesn't fundamentally cause them.
Incidentally wonder why the EU when talking about the fish quotas it wants post Brexit refers to % of their current ex-UK quota rather than of the total catch. ie they want 85% of the non-UK part that equates to around 40%, I think, of the total catch in UK waters. So people think the UK only gets 15% of the catch in its own waters because the EU will get the rest.
With no deal in sight, Olivier Le Prêtre, head of the Hauts-de-France fishing council - whose small boats fish 70 per cent of their catch in UK waters - said he feared the French would be overrun by European rivals if the UK cut them out of theirs.
“If it was only French fishermen in French waters, then no-deal might be ok but we have the Belgians, the Dutch to contend with,” he told the Telegraph.
“If they all end up in French waters, there is a risk of overfishing and in a few months we’ll annihilate stocks.”
The corollary of that is that the British fishing fleet is not big enough to maintain current catch levels in British waters. What is supposed to happen next? Will British companies buy trawlers from Spanish operators, and hire Portuguese crews?
I'd suggest strict enforcement to establish new arrangements, and allowing more fishing by UK trawlers for 3-5 years whilst stocks recover further, then we can take it from there.
Strict enforcement is necessary given the history of French fisherman being willing to offer violence.
If Monsieur Macron stops his posturing, perhaps we can come to an agreement now. The last I heard was the UK having moved to offering a 5 year transition period, whilst the EU was wanting 10.
What UK trawlers? That's the point. If we do not have the capacity we can sell quotas but how does that help the brave UK fisherfolk Brexit is supposed to rescue?
What do you mean "what trawlers?" Next thing you know you'll be pointing out that never mind not having enough boats to catch these repatriated fish that many of the boats we do have rely on migrant labour...
What do you mean "what trawlers?" Next thing you know you'll be pointing out that never mind not having enough boats to catch these repatriated fish that many of the boats we do have rely on migrant labour...
Scottish fishermen like Tommy Finn are nervous.
For decades, his hauls of crabs and lobsters in the waters off Campbeltown on the west coast have easily found their way into the restaurants and market stalls of France and other EU nations.
But the new year threatens a wave of uncertainty.
On January 1, when the Brexit transition period ends, 60-year-old Finn, like many others who make a living from the sea, fears that new tariffs and red tape on fish exports could leave Scottish fishermen facing considerable hardship.
There is, however, a ray of hope: regardless of what happens in the final weeks of post-Brexit trade talks, Northern Ireland will have easier access to the EU economy next year than the rest of the UK. This has promoted speculation that Scottish fishermen might register their boats in Northern Ireland, where under a protocol of the withdrawal agreement, most of the rules of the EU single market will continue to be observed.
Mr. Jonathan, May certainly struggled to get her own party on-side.
However, when you've got the 'pro'-EU side lining up alongside hardline Leavers that was undoubtedly an act that could be called bloody silly. Pro-EU MPs have been the best unwitting allies of sceptics for years, from the stupid reneging of the Lisbon vote through to compelling May to get Commons approval for her deal, to then refusing the deal on three occasions, and now complaining that, having successfully removed almost every alternative, we're set for a turbulent No Deal, in all probability.
*sighs*
There's such a thing as nuance. As a middle between extremes. One might forget that, given blind opposition to The Enemy seems to be a prevailing school of thought amongst many in politics.
Who was more constructive , Remainer Clarke or Leaver Boris?
Leaver Boris.
Citation needed!
Boris got Brexit done.
He's taking back control.
He's even ensuring Brexit means Brexit.
Besides platitudes what do you want a citation for?
The problem we Remainers have is that it was never about trade for many Leavers, it's about prejudice.
The use of language by @Philip_Thompson is instructive. A quick review of his posts shows his describing the French as "Frogs" and mocking the German accent ("...obey ze rules...").
But more revealing is his constant use of the adjective "sclerotic" in relation to the EU - something he did as recently as this morning. He claims to mean it in the sense of inertia, slow moving etc. However in both the CED and the OED (and indeed the ancient copy of Chambers 20th Century Dictionary on my shelf and the online Merriam-Webster) the primary (as in first listed) meaning of the word sclerotic pertains to the medical condition in which body tissue or organs become harder e.g. multiple sclerosis. On dictionary.com that medical definition of "sclerotic" is indeed the only one listed -https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sclerotic?s=t . My thesaurus (and thesaurus.com) lists only medical terms such as debilitated, disabled or paralised as synonyms for the word - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/sclerotic?s=t
While I concede that there is a secondary meaning of "sclerotic" in most dictionaries of "slow to change" that supports Mr Thompson, to an extent, it remains the case that of vast number of available adjectives indicating that state of being (e.g. dilatory, inert, indolent, lagging, lethargic or even just "slow moving") he consistently, almost exclusively, chooses a term that is primarily undertood as stemming from a medical pathology leding to a serious disability.
From the use of his language overall it does appear that the prejudice dispayed in his use of the term "Frogs" and his mocking of Continental European accents goes further, in his mind, being Pro-EU (as opposed to a Europhobe) can only be seen as supporting an illness (perhaps being an illness itself). Normally this wouldn't be a problem. Supporting the disabled should not be regarded as a negative. But as a self-proclaimed supporter of Ayn Rand, who famously said -
"Children cannot deal, and should not have to deal, with the very tragic spectacle of a handicapped human being. When they grow up, they may give it some attention, if they're interested, but it should never be presented to them in childhood, and certainly not as an example of something ~they~ have to live down to." - Ayn Rand, The Age of Mediocrity, Q & A Ford Hall Forum, April, 1981
his constant use of the word "sclerotic" over an above all other words becomes quite, shall we say, problematic.
That sort of attitude (which I don't ascribe to all Leavers) you can't argue against. It's pure prejudice.
Mr. Jonathan, May certainly struggled to get her own party on-side.
However, when you've got the 'pro'-EU side lining up alongside hardline Leavers that was undoubtedly an act that could be called bloody silly. Pro-EU MPs have been the best unwitting allies of sceptics for years, from the stupid reneging of the Lisbon vote through to compelling May to get Commons approval for her deal, to then refusing the deal on three occasions, and now complaining that, having successfully removed almost every alternative, we're set for a turbulent No Deal, in all probability.
*sighs*
There's such a thing as nuance. As a middle between extremes. One might forget that, given blind opposition to The Enemy seems to be a prevailing school of thought amongst many in politics.
Who was more constructive , Remainer Clarke or Leaver Boris?
Leaver Boris.
Citation needed!
Boris got Brexit done.
He's taking back control.
He's even ensuring Brexit means Brexit.
Besides platitudes what do you want a citation for?
Because your assertion is factually incorrect, unless by "constructive" you mean he has built more lorry parks around the M2 and M20 and constructed a raft of new customs paperwork and an unnecessary hostility to our nearest neighbours.
The man is an embarrassment to our country. Turning up to Brussels looking like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle, with his unkempt hair and ill fitting suit, His Environment speech yesterday was remarkable, particularly it's conclusion, which was utterly humiliating. And that is just first impressions, what goes beyond is an incompetence based on the inability to make a decision that he fears might annoy his base.
Whenever I go off on one about my utter contempt for Johnson, I find myself with a handful of extra "off-topics". "Off-topic" away, although I believe my post does relate to Alastair's excellent thread header and Johnson's shambolic handling of Brexit.
I don't off topic anyone. It is cowardly, anonymous and rude. Plus it spams OGH.
If I disagree with you then I'll say so to your face.
I disagree with you. Boris is shaping up to be potentially the second best postwar PM and third most consequential.
I wasn't suggesting you would "off-topic".
We will have to agree to disagree about Johnson's legacy. I didn't like Mrs Thatcher, but I can understand why people did rate her so highly. As for Johnson, I cannot see past the Fred Scuttle, half-wittery.
Johnson's legacy it is too early to say but I think he has the potential to be up there with Attlee and Thatcher as one of the three most consequential PMs post war.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
The same Spanish Foreign Minister says something more interesting than that in the interview. The purpose of trade agreements is to manage interdependence, not to assert independence. What she doesn't say in this clip is that the European Union as the consortium owning the trade system will set the rules. The central contradiction of Brexit is that people voted Leave to take control, yet the only acceptable outcome is a close relationship with our peers in Europe, which will be on EU terms.
I don't disagree with what she says but I do think that she is missing the point. The negotiations have got bogged down because the EU has not been treating the UK like a sovereign partner with whom it is interdependent. They have been treating the UK like a supplicant greatly over valuing what they have to offer. If the negotiations had taken place in an atmosphere of mutual respect working on facilitating that interdependence that she is referring to there would have been a deal months ago.
This tone from Raab sounds a bit different today. I wonder whether we could be about to see another of those Johnson concession-dressed-up-as-victory moments.
“We want to be treated like any other independent self respecting democracy. If you can accept that at a political level, then there’s every reason to be confident, but there is still I think a long way to go …
“The technical tools matter, getting creative solutions, understand the job positions really matters, but what ultimately is required, this 11th hour of negotiation is moving the political logjam, that can only happen at the level of the prime minister and commissioner Von der Leyen.”
Yawn. We are going to now have to suffer weeks of gloating from the same 8-9 regular posters on here (the Ultra-Remain Horde) who are desperate to be vindicated on Brexit and cheer on every hard move of the EU whilst condemning the same if done by the UK. They get off on gloating, provoking, insulting and pompous grandstanding (mainly an exercise in cognitive dissonance they don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to fail to recognise) all whilst tediously clogged up thread after thread with their bilge and like-clicked backslapping and reinforcing of one other.
This is one key reason that I was so keen on a Deal, as I knew how insufferable they'd be with a No Deal, which they secretly all want as they think it suits their long-term political goals the best. In truth, it's a step into the unknown with a variety of (unpredictable) political outcomes.
I get nothing from engaging in that other than irritation so I will be taking a break from this site to leave them to their feverish and euphoric mutual masturbation.
A fair observation to be honest
Which bit of that rant do you think is a fair observation, Big_G ?
I think agreeing in any way with that hot mess of a posting-breakdown implies little thinking was involved.
I doubt he will be the last Brexiter to be mysteriously less prominent in coming weeks.....
It won't be long before Thompson is the last man standing.
You know that kind of arrogance is why Brexit happened
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
We will soon see who the idiots are for certain. There will be a need for lots of donkey suits. One can only hope it is them that lose their jobs and houses and not the innocents.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
The same Spanish Foreign Minister says something more interesting than that in the interview. The purpose of trade agreements is to manage interdependence, not to assert independence. What she doesn't say in this clip is that the European Union as the consortium owning the trade system will set the rules. The central contradiction of Brexit is that people voted Leave to take control, yet the only acceptable outcome is a close relationship with our peers in Europe, which will be on EU terms.
I don't disagree with what she says but I do think that she is missing the point. The negotiations have got bogged down because the EU has not been treating the UK like a sovereign partner with whom it is interdependent. They have been treating the UK like a supplicant greatly over valuing what they have to offer. If the negotiations had taken place in an atmosphere of mutual respect working on facilitating that interdependence that she is referring to there would have been a deal months ago.
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
> And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
I'm not entirely sure how ceasing to be subject to detention at the behest of the police forces on the continent makes us less safe. I'd say it makes us safer if anything.
I suspect that there are quite a lot of Poles in the UK who might feel that way. They form a significant part of the European Arrest Warrant extraditions and it is often for "offences" such as not paying their taxes before they left. They will be more secure here afterwards.
But the EAW is on balance a good thing. It has been very helpful in dealing with international crime and in particular arseholes who think it is ok to go to other countries and ignore their laws. My confusion is what such cooperation has to do with a trade agreement. We could agree this level of cooperation without any trade deal whatsoever.
The problem is that signing up for that sort of agreement involves giving up some Sovereignty - there needs to be a supranational body to appeal to if the UK / EU disagrees with how one of their citizens is being treated.
Interesting chat from Sam Coates. Raab has actually indicated a specific demand for once, rather than just banging on about sovereignty. I still think No Deal is likely, but it’s just about possible the EU could just about agree to narrow the scope of retaliatory tariffs, agree to a euro fudge independent regulator for more comprehensive disputes, slap lipstick on the pig and send it to market.
Of course their views don't really matter, this is what they signed up for.
The same Spanish Foreign Minister says something more interesting than that in the interview. The purpose of trade agreements is to manage interdependence, not to assert independence. What she doesn't say in this clip is that the European Union as the consortium owning the trade system will set the rules. The central contradiction of Brexit is that people voted Leave to take control, yet the only acceptable outcome is a close relationship with our peers in Europe, which will be on EU terms.
I don't disagree with what she says but I do think that she is missing the point. The negotiations have got bogged down because the EU has not been treating the UK like a sovereign partner with whom it is interdependent. They have been treating the UK like a supplicant greatly over valuing what they have to offer. If the negotiations had taken place in an atmosphere of mutual respect working on facilitating that interdependence that she is referring to there would have been a deal months ago.
The one thing the EU doesn't want is a country successfully leaving. Which meant we were always on the back foot and we should have recognised that fact within the negotiations. The fact we never did (even on the quiet) made things far more difficult than they would otherwise have been.
Comments
Reading the thread this morning it was one long rant by those who do not accept brexit and disregard of any alternative view
This forum is at its best when views are argued and discussed but the intolerance of alternative views on Brexit and the active hope some posters will disappear from PB actually harms it
I am going nowhere, will argue for a deal, and expect as we move into 2021 to see progression in the relationship with the EU
Maybe we have to no deal to bring the whole matter to a head but it is important that the EU is held to account as well
It seems on Marr this morning the extreme attitudes on leaving and remaining have virtually remained unchanged and accounts for two thirds of public opinion with one third in the middle which is where I stand. I expect it will be resolved by joining the single market and customs union at some time in the future
However, I would ask all posters to respect all views and not actively encourage some posters to stop posting. That is not acceptable
And caught our youth, and wakened us from sleeping!
With hand made sure, clear eye, and sharpened power,
To turn, as swimmers into cleanness leaping,
Glad from a world grown old and cold and weary;
Leave the sick hearts that honor could not move,
And half-men, and their dirty songs and dreary,
And all the little emptiness of love!
Rupert Brooke, 1915
That's the sort of level at which leave fanbois operate. I am just waiting for PT to advise us that what does not kill us makes us stronger.
And the worst of the disruption will be temporary not permanent.
“There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will stay in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area – and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus – is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP.
"Ministers tell supermarkets to stockpile food"?
Are we in some parallel universe where ministers think that the supermarkets have just been sitting there awaiting instructions and not making their own arrangements in their best business interests? Are they actually trying to send out a message to the public that they SHOULD panic and they SHOULD stockpile?
And with that I'm off. For the day at least. I cannot cope with this petty nationalism from Leavers any more. I'm proud of my country, I want to see us all prosper, as part of Europe.
"Anecdote time. My dad hasn't been especially well this year. Last week he managed to do a hernia. Anyway, he went to see his GP who sent him off to the hospital. He spent most of Wednesday afternoon in outpatients as the doctors there examined him. He went back on Thursday - and spent all day there - before they decided that he needed surgery, which they'd do on Saturday once he'd been off some pills. Great, we thought, they're not messing around. Anyway, he goes back for one last check on Friday. This time, a doctor who he had not seen at all up to this point examines him and decides that actually, it's not that bad, we don't need to operate. Go home and let us know if you're in any pain.
My dad's observation about the hospital was that, whilst most - but certainly not all - staff were wearing masks and temperatures were being checked, they seemed rather relaxed about COVID. It seems beyond bizarre that they went through to all that effort only to have someone (presumably more senior) veto surgery. I've been concerned about COVID preventing other stuff being done by the NHS. But what my dad went through shocked me. Surely you get the key decision maker involved straight away so that you don't waste time and increase risks of COVID being spread."
I will be fuming if that happens.
We are where we are. The UK government has promised the electorate that the UK is going to thrive outside of the EU with or without a deal. We will have higher public spending, lower taxes and reduced levels of debt. It's all there in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. It is now time for the UK government to deliver and to be held to account for the promises it has made.
But hey, that's economics, not politics.
Unless you think Canada has privileges of membership. All Britain has asked for is a Canada style simple FTA.
Strict enforcement is necessary given the history of French fisherman being willing to offer violence.
If Monsieur Macron stops his posturing, perhaps we can come to an agreement now. The last I heard was the UK having moved to offering a 5 year transition period, whilst the EU was wanting 10.
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1338060128155820034
One of many on the cabinet of buffoons willing to support BoZo
Alistair has hit the nail on the head. Let's see how this plays out but sadly it is very likely that the course of action that is being taken by this incompetent wretched Government will be catastrophic for this country (in many many ways).
If you can only name Remainers who tried to defeat Brexit - and who themselves all said that Brexit meant leaving the Single Market - then you've lost the argument.
Try to name one person who was a Leaver. Which even May wasn't.
However, I find it distasteful for some posters to actively encencourage others to stop posting or take a break from posting
The UK isn't asking for a customs agreement. You may want one but we have not asked for that.
Which is what Brexiteers voted for incidentally.
Frost has said that if the hold up is no tariffs or quotas then the UK is willing to have tariffs. The UK has not asked for more than the Canada deal. It was the EU that insisted on zero/zero not us.
PPE compliance is universal in my Trust, with disciplinary action for breaches even in non patient facing areas.
Get a sense of perspective. We haven't even left the Single Market left and you claim people have been impoverished already? Some giving it the benefit of the doubt.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1338052426516082688
And how on earth is it in the EU's interest to deny the UK access to the criminal records system or the missing persons system operated under SIS2? Do they really want their nationals trafficked into the UK? Do they really not want to know about the criminal backgrounds of those from the UK entering their countries without visas for 90 days? This is blatant self harm to make a point. It is completely irrational. But it is also their choice and if that is what they choose we will simply need to make other arrangements to protect our citizens.
Countries all over the globe trade with nothing more than an FTA. Or on WTO terms.
The man is an embarrassment to our country. Turning up to Brussels looking like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle, with his unkempt hair and ill fitting suit, His Environment speech yesterday was remarkable, particularly it's conclusion, which was utterly humiliating. And that is just first impressions, what goes beyond is an incompetence based on the inability to make a decision that he fears might annoy his base.
Whenever I go off on one about my utter contempt for Johnson, I find myself with a handful of extra "off-topics". "Off-topic" away, although I believe my post does relate to Alastair's excellent thread header and Johnson's shambolic handling of Brexit.
If I disagree with you then I'll say so to your face.
I disagree with you. Boris is shaping up to be potentially the second best postwar PM and third most consequential.
So I fear that England - because it is England and not the UK - will swing to the extremities. Farage (or worse) will lead a kill the migrants party. Corbyn (or more pathetic) will lead a kill the elites party. With what's left of the old political establishment an increasingly ignored "centrist" rump.
I put centrist in quote marks for effect. Too many people in politics forget that the Overton window is dynamic. Narrow the window and extremes of left and right are what previously would have been pretty moderate. Expand the window and the old left and right become the centre.
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1338063212747649025
We've signed already dozens of FTAs on similar terms. The EU are the exception not the rule.
But you have "given Brexit the benefit of the doubt", how kind.
2. Supermarkets cannot stockpile fresh food. It goes off.
3. The supermarkets cannot stockpile anything. Anyone heard of Christmas? Warehouses - logistics distribution centres, supermarket distribution centres, store warehouses, front of store racking / deal pallet spaces - it's all rammed with stock as it is every year. Add in Covid and Brexit worries and the situation is the worst it's been for years. Supermarkets can't stockpile as There is nowhere to put it until after Christmas
But the EAW is on balance a good thing. It has been very helpful in dealing with international crime and in particular arseholes who think it is ok to go to other countries and ignore their laws. My confusion is what such cooperation has to do with a trade agreement. We could agree this level of cooperation without any trade deal whatsoever.
We will have to agree to disagree about Johnson's legacy. I didn't like Mrs Thatcher, but I can understand why people did rate her so highly. As for Johnson, I cannot see past the Fred Scuttle, half-wittery.
I will pass on them having a say on our domestic laws. Employment should be a matter for our Parliament and employment contracts, none of their business.
Incidentally wonder why the EU when talking about the fish quotas it wants post Brexit refers to % of their current ex-UK quota rather than of the total catch. ie they want 85% of the non-UK part that equates to around 40%, I think, of the total catch in UK waters. So people think the UK only gets 15% of the catch in its own waters because the EU will get the rest.
For decades, his hauls of crabs and lobsters in the waters off Campbeltown on the west coast have easily found their way into the restaurants and market stalls of France and other EU nations.
But the new year threatens a wave of uncertainty.
On January 1, when the Brexit transition period ends, 60-year-old Finn, like many others who make a living from the sea, fears that new tariffs and red tape on fish exports could leave Scottish fishermen facing considerable hardship.
There is, however, a ray of hope: regardless of what happens in the final weeks of post-Brexit trade talks, Northern Ireland will have easier access to the EU economy next year than the rest of the UK. This has promoted speculation that Scottish fishermen might register their boats in Northern Ireland, where under a protocol of the withdrawal agreement, most of the rules of the EU single market will continue to be observed.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/wave-of-brexit-uncertainty-could-see-scottish-trawlers-reregister-in-northern-ireland-rkxn2zn6h
The use of language by @Philip_Thompson is instructive. A quick review of his posts shows his describing the French as "Frogs" and mocking the German accent ("...obey ze rules...").
But more revealing is his constant use of the adjective "sclerotic" in relation to the EU - something he did as recently as this morning. He claims to mean it in the sense of inertia, slow moving etc. However in both the CED and the OED (and indeed the ancient copy of Chambers 20th Century Dictionary on my shelf and the online Merriam-Webster) the primary (as in first listed) meaning of the word sclerotic pertains to the medical condition in which body tissue or organs become harder e.g. multiple sclerosis. On dictionary.com that medical definition of "sclerotic" is indeed the only one listed -https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sclerotic?s=t . My thesaurus (and thesaurus.com) lists only medical terms such as debilitated, disabled or paralised as synonyms for the word - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/sclerotic?s=t
While I concede that there is a secondary meaning of "sclerotic" in most dictionaries of "slow to change" that supports Mr Thompson, to an extent, it remains the case that of vast number of available adjectives indicating that state of being (e.g. dilatory, inert, indolent, lagging, lethargic or even just "slow moving") he consistently, almost exclusively, chooses a term that is primarily undertood as stemming from a medical pathology leding to a serious disability.
From the use of his language overall it does appear that the prejudice dispayed in his use of the term "Frogs" and his mocking of Continental European accents goes further, in his mind, being Pro-EU (as opposed to a Europhobe) can only be seen as supporting an illness (perhaps being an illness itself). Normally this wouldn't be a problem. Supporting the disabled should not be regarded as a negative. But as a self-proclaimed supporter of Ayn Rand, who famously said -
"Children cannot deal, and should not have to deal, with the very tragic spectacle of a handicapped human being. When they grow up, they may give it some attention, if they're interested, but it should never be presented to them in childhood, and certainly not as an example of something ~they~ have to live down to."
- Ayn Rand, The Age of Mediocrity, Q & A Ford Hall Forum, April, 1981
his constant use of the word "sclerotic" over an above all other words becomes quite, shall we say, problematic.
That sort of attitude (which I don't ascribe to all Leavers) you can't argue against. It's pure prejudice.
Blair had the potential too but threw it away.
“We want to be treated like any other independent self respecting democracy. If you can accept that at a political level, then there’s every reason to be confident, but there is still I think a long way to go …
“The technical tools matter, getting creative solutions, understand the job positions really matters, but what ultimately is required, this 11th hour of negotiation is moving the political logjam, that can only happen at the level of the prime minister and commissioner Von der Leyen.”
That, perhaps, is part of their problem.
Interesting chat from Sam Coates. Raab has actually indicated a specific demand for once, rather than just banging on about sovereignty. I still think No Deal is likely, but it’s just about possible the EU could just about agree to narrow the scope of retaliatory tariffs, agree to a euro fudge independent regulator for more comprehensive disputes, slap lipstick on the pig and send it to market.