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This isn’t going to go down well in White House – Trump named “Loser of the Year” – politicalbetting

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    I did call the food plan. Mail telling patriotic Brits to not eat foreign muck like Cod or Pizza and instead enjoy Mutton, Peas, and of course that favourite dish Toast and Chips.

    The Daily Mail need to listen to Messrs Casino Royale and Philip Thompson.
    Or they’ll cancel their subscriptions?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    OnboardG1 said:



    The one near my parents is offering them but not the one near my grandmother which is a bit of a pain. I really hope they can solve this one.

    I don't quite understand why some areas seem to be well ahead on getting the vaccine and preparing to offer it and other aren't. I hope we don't descend into the ludicrous situation where most of those who need vaccinating in one area are done and supplies are sitting unused while in another area those who need it aren't getting the vaccine.

    Logistics, I fear, the bane of all our lives sometimes.

    @MaxPB is right - I loathe property as well. My own four walls and a roof are enough for me. I've never got any peace of mind about property investment. It should be banned (well, it shouldn't).

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    UK R

    From case data

    image
    image

    From hospitalisation data

    image

    That R graph gives you a headache studying it, but London’s rise from lowest to highest is striking

    The key period was middle November, when it appears that London uniquely wasn’t benefitting from the lockdown
    London varies a lot though - Richmond, Kensington and Westminster are all about 0.90
  • A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Except that if Brexit does block the ports then the ports will be blocked for imports from everywhere, not just the EU.
    The issue is likely to be the ports facing the EU.

    Mind you as we have seen the last week, blocked ports is an issue the world over right now. The US is having a massive issue with rotting food because they can't export it through their own ports.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    UK R

    From case data

    image
    image

    From hospitalisation data

    image

    That R graph gives you a headache studying it, but London’s rise from lowest to highest is striking

    The key period was middle November, when it appears that London uniquely wasn’t benefitting from the lockdown
    London varies a lot though - Richmond, Kensington and Westminster are all about 0.90
    The days when Brits returning from upmarket Swiss skiing holidays were the principal vector of transmission are a distant memory.
  • dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    rcs1000 said:

    Much worse news for Trump today is this.

    You'd have thought that Republican Party elected representatives and officials would have already been well on the road of distancing themselves from the inevitable reputational disaster, now that Trump is officially a loser. It's really odd and very worrying that many of them are, instead, doubling down in supporting him, even in his raving bonkers claims of electoral fraud.
    The question is whether the Republican Party tears itself apart over this: I could see Lisa Murkowski, Ben Sasse and Mitt Romney becoming Independents. (Lisa won as a write in candidate before, and would probably win again. Ben Sasse isn't up for another six years. Mitt is much more popular than Trump in Utah.)

    If it does fissure, then the inevitable consequence is Democratic hegemony for the next eight years, which would not be good for America.
    Those three are in very different categories.

    Murkowski is a moderate Republican in a state with a strong tradition of independents, where I believe they are moving to ranked choice voting following a referendum in November. It makes a lot of sense for her to go independent if she comes under primary pressure again from the right.

    Romney has set out his stall to fight for the soul of the Republican Party. He's not actually that moderate, and nor is he under great primary threat it seems. He'll stand and fight, I think, and enjoy the battle.

    Sasse is actually a pretty conservative Republican who hates Trump personally. He's "independent minded" but I am not sure where he'd be going becoming an independent. He'd not be seeking to wield power as a moderate whose vote is available for a good deal like Murkowski. He's just been reelected so doesn't need to worry too much yet, but is young so does actually presumably want to get reelected again in 2026 in a very red state. I think he'll fight from the inside for a conservative Republican Party where Trump personally isn't welcome.
    Romney is a bishop. The Mormons will rally behind him if he is challenged
  • A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.

    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Two immediate idiocies in what you have posted. We almost certainly import bananas and avocados from Belgium rather than from Israel or Ivory Coast. The EU is a vast market, so bulk imports come into a port for warehousing and then onward distribution to the final market like the UK. The Daily Mail puts these on their list because they are EU imports.

    Yes we can set up direct import routes for Bananas and Avocados and Oranges and everything else that we import via the EU but it will be low volume high cost additions to the current business model and that will bang the unit price up.

    As for fish, the point the Mail is making is that according to our government there is going to be major disruption to our ports. And quite frankly they're trying to educate the wazzocks who think that saving British Fishing liberates Fish and Chips.

    'Yes that is a chippy. Yes those are fishing boats. No they haven't caught the cod the chippy across the road is preparing for you because Cod don't swing in these waters you dumb bastards.'
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831

    alex_ said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    Anecdotally there's real trouble brewing on the vaccination front. GP surgeries are increasingly seeing the requirements as unworkable (huge amount of form filling and requirements for consent before issuing the jab, and socially distanced recovery periods of 15 minutes afterwards) and will significantly impact on wider patient care.

    They are used to doing 2-3 mass flu clinics every year which are hugely organisational efforts but only temporarily disruptive. Surgeries involved in the jabs are going to find this dominates everything else for months.
    From what I've heard, if I didn't know better it appears Matt Hancock has appointed Dido Harding and Chris Grayling to be in charge of the vaccine rollout.

    Considering the vaccine will be like gold, the government appears to have not made any provision for security at plenty of surgeries when they are shut.
    Those -70C storage requirements call for some seriously organised criminals.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,924

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    (Super pedantic Smithson here: we do import some bananas from French Guyana which is technically in the EU.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,924
    Scott_xP said:
    That's not a 2.4% swing, that's a 1.2% swing.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
    I suspect when the AZ one is approved, things will get much easier. Far easier to distribute, much more like the flu shots and very possible in community pharmacies.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    Anecdotally there's real trouble brewing on the vaccination front. GP surgeries are increasingly seeing the requirements as unworkable (huge amount of form filling and requirements for consent before issuing the jab, and socially distanced recovery periods of 15 minutes afterwards) and will significantly impact on wider patient care.

    They are used to doing 2-3 mass flu clinics every year which are hugely organisational efforts but only temporarily disruptive. Surgeries involved in the jabs are going to find this dominates everything else for months.
    From what I've heard, if I didn't know better it appears Matt Hancock has appointed Dido Harding and Chris Grayling to be in charge of the vaccine rollout.

    Considering the vaccine will be like gold, the government appears to have not made any provision for security at plenty of surgeries when they are shut.
    Those -70C storage requirements call for some seriously organised criminals.
    I don't see why criminals would run the risk of stealing real vaccines. It's not like they'll hang around to monitor the results.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
    I suspect when the AZ one is approved, things will get much easier. Far easier to distribute, much more like the flu shots and very possible in community pharmacies.
    Or Epsom racecourse, which is earmarked as one of the mass vaccination centres
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.

    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Two immediate idiocies in what you have posted. We almost certainly import bananas and avocados from Belgium rather than from Israel or Ivory Coast. The EU is a vast market, so bulk imports come into a port for warehousing and then onward distribution to the final market like the UK. The Daily Mail puts these on their list because they are EU imports.

    Yes we can set up direct import routes for Bananas and Avocados and Oranges and everything else that we import via the EU but it will be low volume high cost additions to the current business model and that will bang the unit price up.

    As for fish, the point the Mail is making is that according to our government there is going to be major disruption to our ports. And quite frankly they're trying to educate the wazzocks who think that saving British Fishing liberates Fish and Chips.

    'Yes that is a chippy. Yes those are fishing boats. No they haven't caught the cod the chippy across the road is preparing for you because Cod don't swing in these waters you dumb bastards.'
    Who knew about the cod swinging community?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That's not a 2.4% swing, that's a 1.2% swing.
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That's not a 2.4% swing, that's a 1.2% swing.
    Or maybe a 1.15% swing!
  • Alistair said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    By far the best Avocados on British shelves come from Spain.
    But they represent a tiny amount compared to that from Israel, South Africa and South America.
  • rcs1000 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    (Super pedantic Smithson here: we do import some bananas from French Guyana which is technically in the EU.)
    *giggles* and they speak French in Cote I'voire!

    There are of course some products from some places that come in direct. But global trade uses hub and spoke logistics like everyone else does. Ship your products to a central point and distribute locally. We could bypass the EU hubs for everything we import from outside the EU but at a cost that consumers won't bear.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    The increase in cases is very much a London and SE issue. Plus Wales.

    Whereas they are stable or still falling in northern England.

    Perhaps tier 3 is the key spot.
    I think it's becoming increasingly apparent that the local case numbers influence people's perception of risk and hence behaviour, which isn't surprising really. Otherwise there wouldn't have been such a difference in trajectory between north and south in lockdown lite.

    Unfortunately there's the best part of two weeks delay in the numbers and then maybe at least another two weeks until the message gets through and it affects behaviour, during which the virus gets a free exponential run.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited December 2020

    rcs1000 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    (Super pedantic Smithson here: we do import some bananas from French Guyana which is technically in the EU.)
    *giggles* and they speak French in Cote I'voire!

    There are of course some products from some places that come in direct. But global trade uses hub and spoke logistics like everyone else does. Ship your products to a central point and distribute locally. We could bypass the EU hubs for everything we import from outside the EU but at a cost that consumers won't bear.
    An even more super pedantic chap would like point out that there's an accent circonflexe in Côte d'Ivoire.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2020
    justin124 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That's not a 2.4% swing, that's a 1.2% swing.
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That's not a 2.4% swing, that's a 1.2% swing.
    Or maybe a 1.15% swing!
    One thing that really annoys me about this whole election is the almost unanimous signing up to the narrative that Trump lost votes whilst House republicans significantly bucked the trend. In 2016 Republicans won the House by 241-194 with 49.1% to 48% of the vote.

    And, however bad things look now, just imagine where we would be if Dems hadn't held on to the House! All the theories about what might be possible on Jan 6th would actually be reality!
  • dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
    I suspect when the AZ one is approved, things will get much easier. Far easier to distribute, much more like the flu shots and very possible in community pharmacies.
    That will help a lot.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    But Tory voters are the only real Brits, as HYUFD keeps telling us. Of course the old farts get priority.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
    I suspect when the AZ one is approved, things will get much easier. Far easier to distribute, much more like the flu shots and very possible in community pharmacies.
    That will help a lot.
    Real game changer could be single shot Johnson and Johnson. Have we ordered any of that one?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.

    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Two immediate idiocies in what you have posted. We almost certainly import bananas and avocados from Belgium rather than from Israel or Ivory Coast. The EU is a vast market, so bulk imports come into a port for warehousing and then onward distribution to the final market like the UK. The Daily Mail puts these on their list because they are EU imports.

    Yes we can set up direct import routes for Bananas and Avocados and Oranges and everything else that we import via the EU but it will be low volume high cost additions to the current business model and that will bang the unit price up.

    As for fish, the point the Mail is making is that according to our government there is going to be major disruption to our ports. And quite frankly they're trying to educate the wazzocks who think that saving British Fishing liberates Fish and Chips.

    'Yes that is a chippy. Yes those are fishing boats. No they haven't caught the cod the chippy across the road is preparing for you because Cod don't swing in these waters you dumb bastards.'
    Point of order, the UK imports Cod and Haddock from Norway and Iceland outside of the scope of the EU customs union and EU quotas. We have just signed a trade deal with Norway and Iceland which allows us to continue purchasing both Cod and Haddock. Fish and chips, at least, isn't under threat.
  • rcs1000 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    (Super pedantic Smithson here: we do import some bananas from French Guyana which is technically in the EU.)
    *giggles* and they speak French in Cote I'voire!

    There are of course some products from some places that come in direct. But global trade uses hub and spoke logistics like everyone else does. Ship your products to a central point and distribute locally. We could bypass the EU hubs for everything we import from outside the EU but at a cost that consumers won't bear.
    An even more super pedantic chap would like point out that there's an accent circonflexe in Côte d'Ivoire.
    Since I started contracting for a Romanian firm I've stopped bothering with accents. They have some fabulous swoops and swirls above letters that look pretty but I really can't be faffed with. Can't they all talk proper like what I do?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Mutton stew followed by apple pie with cream. All washed down with a couple of pints of fine ale, then relax with a Single Malt.

    Anyone who would prefer brie, avocado and wine needs their head examining.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    alex_ said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
    I suspect when the AZ one is approved, things will get much easier. Far easier to distribute, much more like the flu shots and very possible in community pharmacies.
    That will help a lot.
    Real game changer could be single shot Johnson and Johnson. Have we ordered any of that one?
    Yes, 60m doses.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    An American friend has pointed out a potential 'fun' issue if Trump does end up in prison.

    As a former POTUS Donald Trump is entitled to lifelong Secret Service protection. So does that mean the Secret Service get to guard Trump inside prison?

    If not Trump might have to get used to tossing the salad.

    Hey, I had to look that up!
    Sod you. I just finished a nice meal and was dumb enough to look that up. :(
    Not me, I hope (and unfortunate expression too).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Mutton stew followed by apple pie with cream. All washed down with a couple of pints of fine ale, then relax with a Single Malt.

    Anyone who would prefer brie, avocado and wine needs their head examining.

    Oh, I don't know. Just had yesterday's boiled saddleback gammon with pickled beetroot and stovies [pommes de terre etouffes a l'oignon a l'ecossaise], then Somerset brie, biscuit and local apple, with Australian red.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
    I suspect when the AZ one is approved, things will get much easier. Far easier to distribute, much more like the flu shots and very possible in community pharmacies.
    That one is some way off. One of our virologist was talking on the subject today, on a briefing. The AZN data really is a bit of a mess.

    Leicester starts with the Pfizer tommorow. I think that no vaccines will be stored in surgeries overnight, they will be kept in the hospital one. He seemed to think the Sputnik vaccine is fine BTW.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    edited December 2020
    This clip is only a year ago.

    Johnson now looks ten years older.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1337431656416882688
  • MaxPB said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.

    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Two immediate idiocies in what you have posted. We almost certainly import bananas and avocados from Belgium rather than from Israel or Ivory Coast. The EU is a vast market, so bulk imports come into a port for warehousing and then onward distribution to the final market like the UK. The Daily Mail puts these on their list because they are EU imports.

    Yes we can set up direct import routes for Bananas and Avocados and Oranges and everything else that we import via the EU but it will be low volume high cost additions to the current business model and that will bang the unit price up.

    As for fish, the point the Mail is making is that according to our government there is going to be major disruption to our ports. And quite frankly they're trying to educate the wazzocks who think that saving British Fishing liberates Fish and Chips.

    'Yes that is a chippy. Yes those are fishing boats. No they haven't caught the cod the chippy across the road is preparing for you because Cod don't swing in these waters you dumb bastards.'
    Point of order, the UK imports Cod and Haddock from Norway and Iceland outside of the scope of the EU customs union and EU quotas. We have just signed a trade deal with Norway and Iceland which allows us to continue purchasing both Cod and Haddock. Fish and chips, at least, isn't under threat.
    Providing we can get them through the blocked ports. The food products my factory make have a zero tariff. Thats not the issue. Cost and delays are.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    (Super pedantic Smithson here: we do import some bananas from French Guyana which is technically in the EU.)
    And from the Canaries.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    (Super pedantic Smithson here: we do import some bananas from French Guyana which is technically in the EU.)
    And from the Canaries.
    But not in the EU
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    edited December 2020

    MaxPB said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.

    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Two immediate idiocies in what you have posted. We almost certainly import bananas and avocados from Belgium rather than from Israel or Ivory Coast. The EU is a vast market, so bulk imports come into a port for warehousing and then onward distribution to the final market like the UK. The Daily Mail puts these on their list because they are EU imports.

    Yes we can set up direct import routes for Bananas and Avocados and Oranges and everything else that we import via the EU but it will be low volume high cost additions to the current business model and that will bang the unit price up.

    As for fish, the point the Mail is making is that according to our government there is going to be major disruption to our ports. And quite frankly they're trying to educate the wazzocks who think that saving British Fishing liberates Fish and Chips.

    'Yes that is a chippy. Yes those are fishing boats. No they haven't caught the cod the chippy across the road is preparing for you because Cod don't swing in these waters you dumb bastards.'
    Point of order, the UK imports Cod and Haddock from Norway and Iceland outside of the scope of the EU customs union and EU quotas. We have just signed a trade deal with Norway and Iceland which allows us to continue purchasing both Cod and Haddock. Fish and chips, at least, isn't under threat.
    Providing we can get them through the blocked ports. The food products my factory make have a zero tariff. Thats not the issue. Cost and delays are.
    Fair enough, that's not really an area I cover. Just pointing out that we already apply customs processing to both cod and haddock purchased from Norway and Iceland.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824
    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    You'd be okay with a free-for-all for resources within UK waters?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I did call the food plan. Mail telling patriotic Brits to not eat foreign muck like Cod or Pizza and instead enjoy Mutton, Peas, and of course that favourite dish Toast and Chips.

    I quite liked the lobster & chips with whisky chaser myself
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    You'd be okay with a free-for-all for resources within UK waters?
    He's not calling for the deployment of the Navy to prevent a free for all. He's calling for a deployment to prevent anything.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Explains why he wasn't available to sign that letter.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    I'd say fish it and sell it to them but the EU has odd rules over buying fish.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    nichomar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    (Super pedantic Smithson here: we do import some bananas from French Guyana which is technically in the EU.)
    And from the Canaries.
    But not in the EU
    Incorrect. They are outermost regions of the EU- same status as French Guyana.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    You'd be okay with a free-for-all for resources within UK waters?
    He's not calling for the deployment of the Navy to prevent a free for all. He's calling for a deployment to prevent anything.
    I think it's fair defence of UK territory. Ultimately if they want the fish they'll have to buy it or purchase the quotas.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    You'd be okay with a free-for-all for resources within UK waters?
    He's not calling for the deployment of the Navy to prevent a free for all. He's calling for a deployment to prevent anything.
    I think it's fair defence of UK territory. Ultimately if they want the fish they'll have to buy it or purchase the quotas.
    The same ones they already puirchased?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    Scott_xP said:
    Just imagine the fun the French customs officials could have in retaliation. As for DK he’s an imbecile and just one of the many that sit on the Tory backbenches .
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    You'd be okay with a free-for-all for resources within UK waters?
    He's not calling for the deployment of the Navy to prevent a free for all. He's calling for a deployment to prevent anything.
    I think it's fair defence of UK territory. Ultimately if they want the fish they'll have to buy it or purchase the quotas.
    The same ones they already puirchased?
    Brexit means brexit.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    To the PB braintrust, my sister and I have inherited a property with both commercial and residential units. We'd like to sell them individually, is it possible for us to set it up as a share of freehold with each of the six units owning a share and then selling those on separately as our dad would like to buy the two commercial units but we don't want to be left managing a freeholding company and have no interest in being residential landlords. It's turning out to be such a gigantic headache. All we want to do is sell shares of freehold to 4 arm's length individual buyers and the 2 shares of freehold of the commercial property to our dad who is interested in buying them for reasons beyond my understanding.

    Right now we've been told we have to set up a freeholding company and then sell the shares of that company to the buyers of create 999 year leases and keep the freeholding company. Again, we have no interest in doing that because neither of us has the wherewithal to be freeholders and run a management company, basically we want to see the back of all 6 units and be able to sell the 2 commercial properties to our dad as a share of freehold.

    I fucking hate property.

    Edit - all I want to know is if this is possible and which firm I can contact to get them to do it, cost isn't an issue we're happy to pay whatever it takes to achieve the stated aim up to £20k.

    You own the freehold of the whole building

    Create a separate company that owns a longleasehold on the entire residential area. That company then creates individual leases to the flat owners.

    When you sell the flats you also sell shares in the long leasehold company

    Would you make sure as freeholder you retain ownership of permitted development rights (eg above the roof) but that the long leasehold company pays for most of the maintenance of their areas (including the roof)

    That should work

    I can recommend Freeths if you need a sensible legal firm
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    MaxPB said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.

    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Two immediate idiocies in what you have posted. We almost certainly import bananas and avocados from Belgium rather than from Israel or Ivory Coast. The EU is a vast market, so bulk imports come into a port for warehousing and then onward distribution to the final market like the UK. The Daily Mail puts these on their list because they are EU imports.

    Yes we can set up direct import routes for Bananas and Avocados and Oranges and everything else that we import via the EU but it will be low volume high cost additions to the current business model and that will bang the unit price up.

    As for fish, the point the Mail is making is that according to our government there is going to be major disruption to our ports. And quite frankly they're trying to educate the wazzocks who think that saving British Fishing liberates Fish and Chips.

    'Yes that is a chippy. Yes those are fishing boats. No they haven't caught the cod the chippy across the road is preparing for you because Cod don't swing in these waters you dumb bastards.'
    Point of order, the UK imports Cod and Haddock from Norway and Iceland outside of the scope of the EU customs union and EU quotas. We have just signed a trade deal with Norway and Iceland which allows us to continue purchasing both Cod and Haddock. Fish and chips, at least, isn't under threat.
    Norway and Iceland account for under 40% of UK cod imports, though. China counts for 20%, but a good proportion of the balance comes from, or via, the EU (Netherlands, Poland, Denmark, Sweden, etc.)

    For Haddock we are not quite so dependent on imports: Norway, Iceland and China also feature here, but Russia and Denmark are the other two of the top five. We also export a much smaller amount, most notably to Ireland.
  • Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    You'd be okay with a free-for-all for resources within UK waters?
    He's not calling for the deployment of the Navy to prevent a free for all. He's calling for a deployment to prevent anything.
    I think it's fair defence of UK territory. Ultimately if they want the fish they'll have to buy it or purchase the quotas.
    The same ones they already puirchased?
    Quotas can lapse: ask dairy farmers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    Anecdotally there's real trouble brewing on the vaccination front. GP surgeries are increasingly seeing the requirements as unworkable (huge amount of form filling and requirements for consent before issuing the jab, and socially distanced recovery periods of 15 minutes afterwards) and will significantly impact on wider patient care.

    They are used to doing 2-3 mass flu clinics every year which are hugely organisational efforts but only temporarily disruptive. Surgeries involved in the jabs are going to find this dominates everything else for months.
    From what I've heard, if I didn't know better it appears Matt Hancock has appointed Dido Harding and Chris Grayling to be in charge of the vaccine rollout.

    Considering the vaccine will be like gold, the government appears to have not made any provision for security at plenty of surgeries when they are shut.
    Those -70C storage requirements call for some seriously organised criminals.
    Yes.

    Shame the government are just criminals, not seriously organised in any way.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Much worse news for Trump today is this.

    https://twitter.com/davidenrich/status/1337363827550277634

    Will Donald and Hunter Biden end up sharing a cell?
    Post Brexit, look to see the Deutsche Bank investigation, in the UK, restarted.

    They have been a naughty bank, in a number of ways.
    What's worse, they have been naughty and incompetent. If you're going to be bad, at least be bad and profitable.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: They've broken the rules.
    Sir Humphrey: What, you mean the insider trading regulations?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: No.
    Sir Humphrey: Oh. Well, that's one relief.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: I mean of course they've broken those, but they've broken the basic, the basic rule of the City.
    Sir Humphrey: I didn't know there were any.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.
    Sir Humphrey: If you're crooked?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Well, if you're making good profits for them, chaps don't start asking questions; they're not stupid. Well, not that stupid.
    Sir Humphrey: So the ideal is a firm which is honest and clever.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Yes. Let me know if you ever come across one, won't you.

    ✋ over here Sir D
  • David Engelthaler, co-director of the T-Gen Research Institute and former state epidemiologist of Arizona:

    "this virus, which is pretty much is un-containable”.

    https://unherd.com/thepost/genomics-expert-new-covid-mutation-was-harder-to-control/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    You'd be okay with a free-for-all for resources within UK waters?
    He's not calling for the deployment of the Navy to prevent a free for all. He's calling for a deployment to prevent anything.
    I think it's fair defence of UK territory. Ultimately if they want the fish they'll have to buy it or purchase the quotas.
    The same ones they already puirchased?
    Brexit means brexit.
    Mphm. I thought your lot were against forcible nationalisation and expropriation. At least Attlee paid compensation for the railway shares.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    UK R

    From case data

    image
    image

    From hospitalisation data

    image

    That R graph gives you a headache studying it, but London’s rise from lowest to highest is striking

    The key period was middle November, when it appears that London uniquely wasn’t benefitting from the lockdown
    London varies a lot though - Richmond, Kensington and Westminster are all about 0.90
    The days when Brits returning from upmarket Swiss skiing holidays were the principal vector of transmission are a distant memory.
    Yes - it was the cheap guys who went to Italy who were the problem
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2020
    I've just thought of a game: trying to think of characters in the literature from Aesop, the Bible right up the present who images Trump in some ways. Alice in Wonderland? The rise (and fall) of Silas Lapham? The little boy who cried "wolf"? Coronation Street's Geoff Metcalfe (if that's literature!)? Humpty Dumpty? It's the sort of game you might play on a long trip.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Except that if Brexit does block the ports then the ports will be blocked for imports from everywhere, not just the EU.
    The issue is likely to be the ports facing the EU.

    Mind you as we have seen the last week, blocked ports is an issue the world over right now. The US is having a massive issue with rotting food because they can't export it through their own ports.
    Surely the answer then is that imports from non eu countries which we already have the wherewithal to deal with and systems get prioritised and then we have time we process the eu imports. That way no disruption for those imports from the rest of the world
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    nico679 said:

    As for DK he’s an imbecile and just one of the many that sit on the Tory backbenches .

    Oh, he is far from just "one of many"

    He takes stupidity to new levels. Pete Wishart is a hopeless amateur in comparison. Andrew Bridgen an intellectual colossus next to Danny boy.

    He also wanted foreign governments to interfere in our democracy, so maybe traitor would be a better term
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Scott_xP said:
    Are we going to shoot them out of the water or just escort them back to their own territory?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    I'd say fish it and sell it to them but the EU has odd rules over buying fish.
    If the fish don't get caught its a win for sustainability of fish stocks
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598
    edited December 2020
    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    A big recovery of the coastal ecosystem.

    If the damage trawling did was immediately visible it would have been banned years ago.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    To the PB braintrust, my sister and I have inherited a property with both commercial and residential units. We'd like to sell them individually, is it possible for us to set it up as a share of freehold with each of the six units owning a share and then selling those on separately as our dad would like to buy the two commercial units but we don't want to be left managing a freeholding company and have no interest in being residential landlords. It's turning out to be such a gigantic headache. All we want to do is sell shares of freehold to 4 arm's length individual buyers and the 2 shares of freehold of the commercial property to our dad who is interested in buying them for reasons beyond my understanding.

    Right now we've been told we have to set up a freeholding company and then sell the shares of that company to the buyers of create 999 year leases and keep the freeholding company. Again, we have no interest in doing that because neither of us has the wherewithal to be freeholders and run a management company, basically we want to see the back of all 6 units and be able to sell the 2 commercial properties to our dad as a share of freehold.

    I fucking hate property.

    Edit - all I want to know is if this is possible and which firm I can contact to get them to do it, cost isn't an issue we're happy to pay whatever it takes to achieve the stated aim up to £20k.

    You own the freehold of the whole building

    Create a separate company that owns a longleasehold on the entire residential area. That company then creates individual leases to the flat owners.

    When you sell the flats you also sell shares in the long leasehold company

    Would you make sure as freeholder you retain ownership of permitted development rights (eg above the roof) but that the long leasehold company pays for most of the maintenance of their areas (including the roof)

    That should work

    I can recommend Freeths if you need a sensible legal firm
    Yes, that's along the lines of what we've been recommended to do already and I have no issue with selling the shares of the freeholding company but what we really want to do is sell the actual shares of freehold and get my dad's name on the deed rather than him own a two shares in the limited company that owns the freehold. We feel that it's a better position for him to be in.

    Thanks for the firm recommendation, I'll get in touch with them on Monday. My sister is lucky she's pregnant or I'd make her do it.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    Like wot I said, logistics really do matter and the priority list should be based on wherever there are large numbers of people already -- so at the top end, no change, care homes and hospitals. But after that, look to workplaces, universities and the like, rather than go by age which means having to coordinate people living far apart to make appointments then turn up.
    FWIW I think the vaccine rollout will be a success by the end of the rollout this is one of those things where the government once more are overpromising and underdelivering.

    I think another driver is that the government doesn't have as many doses as it hoped, and optimism is meeting reality.
    I suspect when the AZ one is approved, things will get much easier. Far easier to distribute, much more like the flu shots and very possible in community pharmacies.
    That one is some way off. One of our virologist was talking on the subject today, on a briefing. The AZN data really is a bit of a mess.

    Leicester starts with the Pfizer tommorow. I think that no vaccines will be stored in surgeries overnight, they will be kept in the hospital one. He seemed to think the Sputnik vaccine is fine BTW.

    Disappointing. I’d kind of hoped that the order of press release and timelines would match the mhra approval, and see moderna next and AZ before Christmas...
    It does seem that it won’t be long before there is a lot of vaccine going round, of many different flavours...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Scott_xP said:
    Are we going to shoot them out of the water or just escort them back to their own territory?
    Any naval historian or zoologist would tell you the answer is convoy or (in fishy context) schooling. The fishing boats just gang together and turn up en masse and saturate the patrol boat. The ones who get away pay compo to the one who gets to bell the cat - and preoccupues the patrol ship for a day or three. Or else the patrol ship runs out of prize crews ...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    A big recovery of the coastal ecosystem.

    If the damage trawling did was immediately visible it would have been banned years ago.
    On a side note I would hope whatever the deal is on fish that any fishing is conducted according to a british fishing policy not under cfp rules as the CFP has been widely regarded as a disaster by marine ecologists and not only in british waters but also the meditarranean
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    A big recovery of the coastal ecosystem.

    If the damage trawling did was immediately visible it would have been banned years ago.
    You think the message these Tory MPs are looking to sell to the fishing communities is "good news guys, we've got rid of the French, but don't get ahead of yourselves thinking you'll be able to take their place"?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    To the PB braintrust, my sister and I have inherited a property with both commercial and residential units. We'd like to sell them individually, is it possible for us to set it up as a share of freehold with each of the six units owning a share and then selling those on separately as our dad would like to buy the two commercial units but we don't want to be left managing a freeholding company and have no interest in being residential landlords. It's turning out to be such a gigantic headache. All we want to do is sell shares of freehold to 4 arm's length individual buyers and the 2 shares of freehold of the commercial property to our dad who is interested in buying them for reasons beyond my understanding.

    Right now we've been told we have to set up a freeholding company and then sell the shares of that company to the buyers of create 999 year leases and keep the freeholding company. Again, we have no interest in doing that because neither of us has the wherewithal to be freeholders and run a management company, basically we want to see the back of all 6 units and be able to sell the 2 commercial properties to our dad as a share of freehold.

    I fucking hate property.

    Edit - all I want to know is if this is possible and which firm I can contact to get them to do it, cost isn't an issue we're happy to pay whatever it takes to achieve the stated aim up to £20k.

    You own the freehold of the whole building

    Create a separate company that owns a longleasehold on the entire residential area. That company then creates individual leases to the flat owners.

    When you sell the flats you also sell shares in the long leasehold company

    Would you make sure as freeholder you retain ownership of permitted development rights (eg above the roof) but that the long leasehold company pays for most of the maintenance of their areas (including the roof)

    That should work

    I can recommend Freeths if you need a sensible legal firm
    Yes, that's along the lines of what we've been recommended to do already and I have no issue with selling the shares of the freeholding company but what we really want to do is sell the actual shares of freehold and get my dad's name on the deed rather than him own a two shares in the limited company that owns the freehold. We feel that it's a better position for him to be in.

    Thanks for the firm recommendation, I'll get in touch with them on Monday. My sister is lucky she's pregnant or I'd make her do it.
    Keep the freehold

    If you create the long leasehold company they have to do all the work and you just have limited interactions with one counterparty

    Samantha’s my lawyer. I think you know who I am so feel free to mention if you want

    https://www.freeths.co.uk/people/samantha-leigh/?cmpredirect
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    A big recovery of the coastal ecosystem.

    If the damage trawling did was immediately visible it would have been banned years ago.
    You think the message these Tory MPs are looking to sell to the fishing communities is "good news guys, we've got rid of the French, but don't get ahead of yourselves thinking you'll be able to take their place"?
    The british fishing fleet will take several years to rebuild, if during that time fish stocks get a recovery period due to the lack of eu factory ships by the time its in place there will have been a significant increase in fish stocks. It is simple to work out apart from for you it seems
  • Pagan2 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Except that if Brexit does block the ports then the ports will be blocked for imports from everywhere, not just the EU.
    The issue is likely to be the ports facing the EU.

    Mind you as we have seen the last week, blocked ports is an issue the world over right now. The US is having a massive issue with rotting food because they can't export it through their own ports.
    Surely the answer then is that imports from non eu countries which we already have the wherewithal to deal with and systems get prioritised and then we have time we process the eu imports. That way no disruption for those imports from the rest of the world
    And that's fine proving you are happy to pay the oncosts of direct import. Let me give you an example. My last company was buying Oats from Canada. High quality and cheap with one problem - location. Shipping transcontinental to an eastern port then trans-Atlantic isn't something you do with bit loads. You do it in bulk and that means combining orders.

    Our Canadian Oats were in practice an Irish import because thats where the bulk load landed. Yes some ships will first come to Liverpool or Felixtowe. But so many land in the EU and then our part of the bulk order comes in. Putting the UK part on a separate delivery drop where the ship gets delayed as they offload our bit then carry on with the rest? Sure - if you want to pay for it.
  • Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    A big recovery of the coastal ecosystem.

    If the damage trawling did was immediately visible it would have been banned years ago.
    You think the message these Tory MPs are looking to sell to the fishing communities is "good news guys, we've got rid of the French, but don't get ahead of yourselves thinking you'll be able to take their place"?
    The british fishing fleet will take several years to rebuild, if during that time fish stocks get a recovery period due to the lack of eu factory ships by the time its in place there will have been a significant increase in fish stocks. It is simple to work out apart from for you it seems
    In those several years will there be an outward migration of all the fish currently here that we don't eat, and in inward migration of all those foreign fish we do like to eat?

    Its simple to work out apparently...
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874
    Trump named loser of the year. Johnson - hold my beer, the year's not over yet!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Pagan2 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Except that if Brexit does block the ports then the ports will be blocked for imports from everywhere, not just the EU.
    The issue is likely to be the ports facing the EU.

    Mind you as we have seen the last week, blocked ports is an issue the world over right now. The US is having a massive issue with rotting food because they can't export it through their own ports.
    Surely the answer then is that imports from non eu countries which we already have the wherewithal to deal with and systems get prioritised and then we have time we process the eu imports. That way no disruption for those imports from the rest of the world
    And that's fine proving you are happy to pay the oncosts of direct import. Let me give you an example. My last company was buying Oats from Canada. High quality and cheap with one problem - location. Shipping transcontinental to an eastern port then trans-Atlantic isn't something you do with bit loads. You do it in bulk and that means combining orders.

    Our Canadian Oats were in practice an Irish import because thats where the bulk load landed. Yes some ships will first come to Liverpool or Felixtowe. But so many land in the EU and then our part of the bulk order comes in. Putting the UK part on a separate delivery drop where the ship gets delayed as they offload our bit then carry on with the rest? Sure - if you want to pay for it.
    Is your company the only one importing canadian oats? I doubt it in which case they just combine all the canadian oats on to however many ships rather than have it delievered as a mixed shipment.

    Secondly why does off loading in ireland first then shipping to the uk cost more than offloading in the uk then shipping to ireland?. Your argument is based on "This is how we do it now". What will happen is companies will look at the best way of doing it then when we finally get told the rules.

    I am totally behind the arguments that companies should know by now. Just not behind the argument that how we currently do it will be how we do it in the future
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    To the PB braintrust, my sister and I have inherited a property with both commercial and residential units. We'd like to sell them individually, is it possible for us to set it up as a share of freehold with each of the six units owning a share and then selling those on separately as our dad would like to buy the two commercial units but we don't want to be left managing a freeholding company and have no interest in being residential landlords. It's turning out to be such a gigantic headache. All we want to do is sell shares of freehold to 4 arm's length individual buyers and the 2 shares of freehold of the commercial property to our dad who is interested in buying them for reasons beyond my understanding.

    Right now we've been told we have to set up a freeholding company and then sell the shares of that company to the buyers of create 999 year leases and keep the freeholding company. Again, we have no interest in doing that because neither of us has the wherewithal to be freeholders and run a management company, basically we want to see the back of all 6 units and be able to sell the 2 commercial properties to our dad as a share of freehold.

    I fucking hate property.

    Edit - all I want to know is if this is possible and which firm I can contact to get them to do it, cost isn't an issue we're happy to pay whatever it takes to achieve the stated aim up to £20k.

    You own the freehold of the whole building

    Create a separate company that owns a longleasehold on the entire residential area. That company then creates individual leases to the flat owners.

    When you sell the flats you also sell shares in the long leasehold company

    Would you make sure as freeholder you retain ownership of permitted development rights (eg above the roof) but that the long leasehold company pays for most of the maintenance of their areas (including the roof)

    That should work

    I can recommend Freeths if you need a sensible legal firm
    Yes, that's along the lines of what we've been recommended to do already and I have no issue with selling the shares of the freeholding company but what we really want to do is sell the actual shares of freehold and get my dad's name on the deed rather than him own a two shares in the limited company that owns the freehold. We feel that it's a better position for him to be in.

    Thanks for the firm recommendation, I'll get in touch with them on Monday. My sister is lucky she's pregnant or I'd make her do it.
    Keep the freehold

    If you create the long leasehold company they have to do all the work and you just have limited interactions with one counterparty

    Samantha’s my lawyer. I think you know who I am so feel free to mention if you want

    https://www.freeths.co.uk/people/samantha-leigh/?cmpredirect
    I'll have a think about it, I'm just not interested in owning any property other than the one I live in. I've got investments but I have a moral objection to property based investment, especially residential. I want the people to whom I'm selling to have the security of owning a share of freehold. When I bought my flat I had that benefit.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,924

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    I'm old enough to remember certain people on here saying it was all going to be a piece of piss and that we'd easily be doing 100ks a week before Christmas based on the flu vaccine procedure. Hmm.
    I bet you the UK government administers more than 100,000 CV19 doses in the last week of 2020.
  • Scott_xP said:
    If all the EU can offer is blackmail then no deal it will be
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Scott_xP said:
    So the EU side are now actively pushing for no-deal in January, because they think the disruption will cause UK compromises. Good to know.
  • 2024 POTUS is going to be democracy vs Trump Party by looks of things. How the GOP will split over next four years will be interesting.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And why do we even care? What's going to happen to all these fish if the French don't get to fish them?
    A big recovery of the coastal ecosystem.

    If the damage trawling did was immediately visible it would have been banned years ago.
    You think the message these Tory MPs are looking to sell to the fishing communities is "good news guys, we've got rid of the French, but don't get ahead of yourselves thinking you'll be able to take their place"?
    The british fishing fleet will take several years to rebuild, if during that time fish stocks get a recovery period due to the lack of eu factory ships by the time its in place there will have been a significant increase in fish stocks. It is simple to work out apart from for you it seems
    In those several years will there be an outward migration of all the fish currently here that we don't eat, and in inward migration of all those foreign fish we do like to eat?

    Its simple to work out apparently...
    Most of what we eat we import from countries outside of the EU

    For example Cod
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/511023/cod-import-value-united-kingdom-uk-country-of-origin/#:~:text=Fisheries & Aquaculture-,Cod import value to the United Kingdom (UK,2016, by country of origin&text=This statistic shows the total,to the UK from Iceland.

    And most of that german Cod we should be boycotting due to its being fished illegaly

    https://balticeye.org/en/fisheries/denmark-and-germany-continue-to-catch-cod---despite-ban/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:


    From what I can see reopening the shops has been catastrophic. People shopping whilst wearing masks and distancing? Would be OK. But I've both seen and had reports from mates across the NE and those of us not wanting the pox watch agog as people swarm into shops like we haven't seen since the January sales, crush in and largely ignore at least some of the rules.

    Tier 3 simply isn't enough if people can't follow the basic rules.

    It now seems likely but not certain London will go into Tier 3 next week. I said back in August if we went into a second national lockdown the public would only have themselves to blame.

    The "rules" aren't very difficult in all honesty and bolstered by a little common sense should be adequate so what has gone wrong? I see a lot of people with no masks almost defying the virus to make them change how they live their lives. I see it a lot among men in particular and it defies my clearly limited masculinity but it seems the thought process is "this virus can do its worst, I'll be all right, I'm just going to live as I always have".

    Part of that is, I think, a reaction to the events of March and April which saw the initial fear replaced quite quickly (helped by the capriciously good weather) of a sense of frustration and resentment. As others on here have alluded, the mental health (let alone the physical and economic wellbeing) of millions was adversely affected by the confinement.

    The desire for normality was and is understandable and perhaps overwhelming and in the summer we could all enjoy the outdoor life in relative safety and people don't want to go back to that spring experience and those feelings.

    Even the second "lockdown" was a compromise - it was nowhere near as stringent as the first confinement and thus the case numbers haven't fallen to the levels of July and August (albeit with much improved testing to identify the cases).

    The irony is a fairly permanent resolution to this is in sight - clearly we won't get 10 million vaccinated before Christmas as one or two asserted in the euphoria of the initial Pfizer announcement but we will get there over the next weeks and months.
    Further to that. Did anyone answer the question are there any government figures of vaccinations per day?
    Probably the most important stat going forward.
    From what I'm hearing the rollout of the vaccine is going to be a bit of a fiasco.
    I'm old enough to remember certain people on here saying it was all going to be a piece of piss and that we'd easily be doing 100ks a week before Christmas based on the flu vaccine procedure. Hmm.
    I bet you the UK government administers more than 100,000 CV19 doses in the last week of 2020.
    I can't afford to bet you any money but I will acknowledge you if you're correct.

    I'm not really saying you aren't correct anyway, I was just musing over what seems to be over promising and under delivering yet again. It does not bode well for Brexit.
  • Democrat candidate (Biden or Harris) will run on a simple 'if HE wins then democracy is finished in the US' ticket.

    Trump has painted himself into that corner. Maybe it wont be a corner and enough americans will vote to end their republic.

    Glad its four years away.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    2024 POTUS is going to be democracy vs Trump Party by looks of things. How the GOP will split over next four years will be interesting.

    2022 could be even more interesting. It's been assumed that the Democrats would face an almighty battle to hold on in the House, even though there were some promising options in the Senate.

    We could now be looking at a completely different landscape.
  • Pagan2 said:

    A handy guide to food post Brexit in the Daily Mail

    That's a really stupid graphic. The two immediate idiocies that spring to mind are:

    We don't import bananas or avocados from the EU so there is no reason for them to be affected by the type of Brexit we have. Indeed the vast majority of avocados are imported from Israel and we already have a trade deal signed with them which will reduce tariffs compared to the current EU tariffs.


    Norway and Iceland are not in the EU and particularly are not in the Customs Union so do not have to abide by any EU/UK tariff regime. More to the point the UK, Iceland and Norway have already signed a deal to continue to trade in exactly the same way as they do now until a proper trade deal is concluded next year.
    Except that if Brexit does block the ports then the ports will be blocked for imports from everywhere, not just the EU.
    The issue is likely to be the ports facing the EU.

    Mind you as we have seen the last week, blocked ports is an issue the world over right now. The US is having a massive issue with rotting food because they can't export it through their own ports.
    Surely the answer then is that imports from non eu countries which we already have the wherewithal to deal with and systems get prioritised and then we have time we process the eu imports. That way no disruption for those imports from the rest of the world
    That is already the case in a lot of non EU cases. Certainly with fresh fruit there is a lot more direct shipping between the countries of origin and the UK than the EUphiles like to admit.

    To put some numbers on it. According to the Department of Transport in 2019 we imported 2 million tonnes of agricultural products from EU ports. But we imported 2.8 million tonnes from the US direct and a further half million tonnes from Africa, Asia and Australasia that didn't go through EU ports. Given that the vast majority of that 2 million tonnes imported from the EU ports will be from EU countries, the amount of agricultural products coming from the rest of the world via the EU is tiny.
  • It's the 1982 issue again.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    I see Prof Spectre has started asking his Zoe panellists whether or not they have had the vaccine; should yield some interesting data in due course
This discussion has been closed.