That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
Brown always had to use stealth taxes, fiscal drag and borrowing to raise additional funds, as he knew just coming out and saying OK we need to tax you a load more, doesn't go down well. Think about how badly IHT stuff went down, when it basically doesn't even effect that many people.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
And of course you seemed to overlook, no talk of joining the Euro, when all the other major nations were, because again, he knew it wasn't going to fly....so Balls came up with 5 impossible tests to ensure we couldn't join it.
To say, no, it never featured, ever, is totally rewriting of history. 2000s, we still had an uncomfortable relationship with the EU, be it the Euro, the Lisbon Treaty, every politician had to walk a fine line, but was lesser focus as economy was going well.
For me, this is a genuinely exciting choice between two options that both have much to recommend them. With a deal, we put all the recent uncertainty to bed, people on both sides can take a much needed break from thinking about it - the psychological benefits of the smoothest possible transition are not inconsiderable. Without one, undoubtedly the more exciting option, we galvanise the country around the subject of its own future prosperity in a way not seen since the 1930's. We become an independent, prosperous trading nation. I understand that people aren't as excited as me, and that you don't really enjoy reading this, but it's honestly how I feel.
And to think some people say that Brexit is driven by WW2 nostalgia!
For me it's more harking back to the spacious days of Good Queen Bess.
Luvvin' the England, this sceptred isle vibe.
When the UK breaks up in a few years time, we should apply market forces and let everyone in the UK decide which of the British Isles nation they wish to belong to.
I'll be opting to become a citizen of a Scotland committed to rejoining the EU, just saying.
The UK will not be breaking up and if you hate your own country so much you may as well sod off and move to the EU now, bye!!
Don't worry HYFUD... Now you clowns have totally stuffed things, it's an oven ready deal.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
Exactly. It only became an issue when it was tagged with other inflammatory messages. Up until Cameron's referendum error, which wasn't for the British public but for Tory MPs, the EU didn't feature in a single Top 5 issue in any opinion poll or exit poll for a General Election. Go and look.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
Exactly. It only became an issue when it was tagged with other inflammatory messages. Up until Cameron's referendum error, which wasn't for the British public but for Tory MPs, the EU didn't feature in a single Top 5 issue in any opinion poll or exit poll for a General Election. Go and look.
Should we / should we not join the Euro was a huge talking point. As was the Lisbon Treaty. Fundamentally, it was all about should we be much closer to Europe and the European project. Blair knew politically he couldn't get joining the Euro through, and Lisbon was only signed after Brown slipped in via the backdoor under the cover of darkness.
If it was a non-issue in the public's minds, when Cameron offered the referendum just for the Tory MPs / UKIP, he would have won it easily wouldn't he...like AV referendum, people looked at that and went nought wrong with FPTP, no change required, what's all this nonsense about.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
Exactly. It only became an issue when it was tagged with other inflammatory messages. Up until Cameron's referendum error, which wasn't for the British public but for Tory MPs, the EU didn't feature in a single Top 5 issue in any opinion poll or exit poll for a General Election. Go and look.
Should we / should we not join the Euro was a huge talking point. As was the Lisbon Treaty.
No they weren't. Only in your political bubble I'm afraid.
We left the ERM in 1992 in case you've forgotten so there was no chance thereafter that we would join the Euro. And the Lisbon treaty? You really are in a bubble if you think that. I guarantee if you ask the British public now to tell you what the Lisbon treaty was about you would get less than 0.01% correct answers.
No one cared sufficiently about it for it to be an issue. Opinion polling and Exit polling on the day at General Elections confirms I'm right.
For me, this is a genuinely exciting choice between two options that both have much to recommend them. With a deal, we put all the recent uncertainty to bed, people on both sides can take a much needed break from thinking about it - the psychological benefits of the smoothest possible transition are not inconsiderable. Without one, undoubtedly the more exciting option, we galvanise the country around the subject of its own future prosperity in a way not seen since the 1930's. We become an independent, prosperous trading nation. I understand that people aren't as excited as me, and that you don't really enjoy reading this, but it's honestly how I feel.
And to think some people say that Brexit is driven by WW2 nostalgia!
For me it's more harking back to the spacious days of Good Queen Bess.
Luvvin' the England, this sceptred isle vibe.
When the UK breaks up in a few years time, we should apply market forces and let everyone in the UK decide which of the British Isles nation they wish to belong to.
I'll be opting to become a citizen of a Scotland committed to rejoining the EU, just saying.
The UK will not be breaking up and if you hate your own country so much you may as well sod off and move to the EU now, bye!!
Don't worry HYFUD... Now you clowns have totally stuffed things, it's an oven ready deal.
It's a rather rash statement by HYUFD that the UK won't be breaking up. There's a chance it will.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
Exactly. It only became an issue when it was tagged with other inflammatory messages. Up until Cameron's referendum error, which wasn't for the British public but for Tory MPs, the EU didn't feature in a single Top 5 issue in any opinion poll or exit poll for a General Election. Go and look.
Should we / should we not join the Euro was a huge talking point. As was the Lisbon Treaty.
No they weren't. Only in your political bubble I'm afraid.
We left the ERM in 1992 in case you've forgotten so there was no chance thereafter that we would join the Euro. And the Lisbon treaty? You really are in a bubble if you think that. I guarantee if you ask the British public now to tell you what the Lisbon treaty was about you would get less than 0.01% correct answers.
No one cared sufficiently about it for it to be an issue. Opinion polling and Exit polling on the day at General Elections confirms I'm right.
Its strange for such a non-issue, the UKIP party didn't half start to wrack up a lot of votes / MEPs / share in opinion polls.
And at the first opportunity, we voted out. Where as, AV, the public went don't be silly. In places like Stoke, it was coming, you could tell, solid Labour place forever and you talk to people and they were super pissed about EU stuff way before we got to referendum. They didn't need much convincing.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
Exactly. It only became an issue when it was tagged with other inflammatory messages. Up until Cameron's referendum error, which wasn't for the British public but for Tory MPs, the EU didn't feature in a single Top 5 issue in any opinion poll or exit poll for a General Election. Go and look.
Should we / should we not join the Euro was a huge talking point. As was the Lisbon Treaty.
No they weren't. Only in your political bubble I'm afraid.
We left the ERM in 1992 in case you've forgotten so there was no chance thereafter that we would join the Euro. And the Lisbon treaty? You really are in a bubble if you think that. I guarantee if you ask the British public now to tell you what the Lisbon treaty was about you would get less than 0.01% correct answers.
No one cared sufficiently about it for it to be an issue. Opinion polling and Exit polling on the day at General Elections confirms I'm right.
Its strange for such a non-issue, the UKIP party didn't half start to wrack up a lot of votes / MEPs / share in opinion polls.
Yep but you're now moving the goalposts (as I suspect you know) and referring to how things changed from 2015 onwards, which I don't dispute.
Enough. Life is too short so stick with your view if you wish and, with respect, you've not altered mine on this occasion.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
Exactly. It only became an issue when it was tagged with other inflammatory messages. Up until Cameron's referendum error, which wasn't for the British public but for Tory MPs, the EU didn't feature in a single Top 5 issue in any opinion poll or exit poll for a General Election. Go and look.
Should we / should we not join the Euro was a huge talking point. As was the Lisbon Treaty.
No they weren't. Only in your political bubble I'm afraid.
We left the ERM in 1992 in case you've forgotten so there was no chance thereafter that we would join the Euro. And the Lisbon treaty? You really are in a bubble if you think that. I guarantee if you ask the British public now to tell you what the Lisbon treaty was about you would get less than 0.01% correct answers.
No one cared sufficiently about it for it to be an issue. Opinion polling and Exit polling on the day at General Elections confirms I'm right.
Its strange for such a non-issue, the UKIP party didn't half start to wrack up a lot of votes / MEPs / share in opinion polls.
Yep but you're now moving the goalposts (as I suspect you know) and referring to how things changed from 2015 onwards, which I don't dispute.
Enough. Life is too short so stick with your view if you wish and, with respect, you've not altered mine on this occasion.
For me, this is a genuinely exciting choice between two options that both have much to recommend them. With a deal, we put all the recent uncertainty to bed, people on both sides can take a much needed break from thinking about it - the psychological benefits of the smoothest possible transition are not inconsiderable. Without one, undoubtedly the more exciting option, we galvanise the country around the subject of its own future prosperity in a way not seen since the 1930's. We become an independent, prosperous trading nation. I understand that people aren't as excited as me, and that you don't really enjoy reading this, but it's honestly how I feel.
Brexit Kool Aid overdose.
Not at all - I've always felt this way and said as much. We have just suffered (and are suffering) the dislocation of a global plague - and doing ok. Problems find solutions. Anyone trading away long term benefits because of fear of short-term disruption isn't thinking straight.
You don’t become a trading nation by walking away from free trade.
Indeed not! Embrace free trade and abolish tariffs on imports. (Seriously)
Indeed. One of the first Brexit benefits should be that stuff, especially food, gets cheaper. UK needs very few import tarrifs.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Well I think when they said only 15k Poles would arrive and millions did, it became rather a talking point.
Exactly. It only became an issue when it was tagged with other inflammatory messages. Up until Cameron's referendum error, which wasn't for the British public but for Tory MPs, the EU didn't feature in a single Top 5 issue in any opinion poll or exit poll for a General Election. Go and look.
Should we / should we not join the Euro was a huge talking point. As was the Lisbon Treaty.
No they weren't. Only in your political bubble I'm afraid.
We left the ERM in 1992 in case you've forgotten so there was no chance thereafter that we would join the Euro. And the Lisbon treaty? You really are in a bubble if you think that. I guarantee if you ask the British public now to tell you what the Lisbon treaty was about you would get less than 0.01% correct answers.
No one cared sufficiently about it for it to be an issue. Opinion polling and Exit polling on the day at General Elections confirms I'm right.
Its strange for such a non-issue, the UKIP party didn't half start to wrack up a lot of votes / MEPs / share in opinion polls.
Yep but you're now moving the goalposts (as I suspect you know) and referring to how things changed from 2015 onwards, which I don't dispute.
Enough. Life is too short so stick with your view if you wish and, with respect, you've not altered mine on this occasion.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Yes, can you imagine Brits voting for things like universal healthcare?
We had that before we were in the EU and the EU does not have a common universal system - indeed health systems are with the nations and each member state is different. One of the things I have always disliked and thought it was a big weakness of the EU.
That highlights why the UK has always been an uncomfortable member, as we as a nation don't tend to vote for parties who propose the european social model, so always at odds with these ideas that the leading lights in the EU hold so dear and want to advance / see as the solution to many problems.
Tony Blair won 3 General Election landslides with that model.
But the idea that Britons vote because of their policy on the EU is risible. Not until Brexit emerged from its chthonian shadows in the last handful of years did it ever raise its head as an issue of importance to the majority of British voters.
It was an issue that vexed ideologues not the British public.
No, he promised better public services, but to follow the Tory economy plans. It was only in the dying months of the Brown government did he really put up income tax rates to more European levels.
He was a massive pro-European.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
Up to a point Lord Copper.. the referendum demonstrated that for many the EU was at best tolerated and at worst not worth staying in - sadly for me but that result represented a massive political failure for the remain campaign.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
I thought you were sent to the Poorhouse in Dickens’s time.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Then let's go back to your era of Blair and Brown, when there were far fewer food banks, when we were still a rich nation pretending there wasn't a problem.
We now have a vast number of volunteers working with local supermarkets, ensuring that a mass of food gets to those without, rather than tipped into landfill.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
You've never been through a hard time? The existence of support is a good thing not a bad thing.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
It should be how it was under Blair and Brown, with few food banks and those in need simply going hungry?
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
You've never been through a hard time? The existence of support is a good thing not a bad thing.
Thousands begging for food, relying on last resort charity is not a good thing.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
The more salient point is that welfare in the UK is a lot worse - and a whole lot more punitive - than it used to be and the people who suffer the consequences are usually the most vulnerable in our society. We should be doing a lot better. We know we can because we did in the past.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Of course Germany invented the welfare state decades before Britain started copying, and welfare remains in some ways far more generous in Germany than in Britain.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
Incorrect. There was a huge demand for the services of foodbanks under Brown and Blair. They just made it nearly impossible to set them up or operate them effectively - for example, government agencies were discouraged from working with them to direct people who needed help there.
I was working with one from 2009 and it was a nightmare trying to sort out the red tape. Then Cameron adopted them as part of his ‘Big Society’ and everything became hugely easier.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
The contrast between the way in which the Tories have thrown taxpayers' money at their mates during the current pandemic and how they have methodically reduced welfare provision for the most vulnerable is stark and very revealing.
.... The next German government, a year from now, will presumably push increasingly harder in that direction. ...
Thre must be about a 50/50 chance that Merkel will still be Chancellor for the whole of 2021. Unless the AD vote drops dramatically , the coalition negotiations are likely to take over 3 months again as they did in 2017.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
What if anecdotal experience isn't anything to go by?
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
In work welfare in this country is not at all shite from a global perspective. In some parts of the EU you can get a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour - whereas here you can get a minimum wage five times that and then get Universal Credit on top of your waves too.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
Incorrect. There was a huge demand for the services of foodbanks under Brown and Blair. They just made it nearly impossible to set them up or operate them effectively - for example, government agencies were discouraged from working with them to direct people who needed help there.
I was working with one from 2009 and it was a nightmare trying to sort out the red tape. Then Cameron adopted them as part of his ‘Big Society’ and everything became hugely easier.
And demand increased because significant cuts to welfare provision occurred, alongside a series of changes which made accessing welfare much harder and more time consuming. Or are you denying this has happened?
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
What if anecdotal experience isn't anything to go by?
Well, in fairness Joff that would render most of your posts null. Yet you’re mostly on the money with these things.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Your steering a bit too close to Victorian arguments for the undeserving poor. Even people who make mistakes need to eat, we all need to eat. Mistakes are irrelevant to that fact. I don’t see why we have to force people to beg for handouts, which may or not be there. I would favour a system that guarantees a good meal, makes everyone contribute and protects the dignity of people receiving help.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
It can't be ended. People have always gone through hard times.
Suggesting ending food banks is easy is like suggesting ending welfare is easy. It's better to have the support available and not need it than need it and not have it.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
Incorrect. There was a huge demand for the services of foodbanks under Brown and Blair. They just made it nearly impossible to set them up or operate them effectively - for example, government agencies were discouraged from working with them to direct people who needed help there.
I was working with one from 2009 and it was a nightmare trying to sort out the red tape. Then Cameron adopted them as part of his ‘Big Society’ and everything became hugely easier.
And demand increased because significant cuts to welfare provision occurred, alongside a series of changes which made accessing welfare much harder and more time consuming. Or are you denying this has happened?
The answer is it’s hard to tell because we don’t actually have the data. I would have said it’s gone up, but the original claim was that it didn’t exist before, which was not correct. It was hidden by those crooks in New Labour so they could pretend their welfare policies had worked.
If you ask anyone working in the sector in London, they'll tell you foodbank use exploded around 2014-15. This was about a year after the first major welfare cuts and changes began to feed through, IIRC. There's no question that the rise was linked to benefit cuts and sanctions.
On comparisons, our welfare levels are certainly significant worse than our neighbours in northern europe. Affluent northern europe, rather than eastern or southern europe, should logically be the yardstick.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
In work welfare in this country is not at all shite from a global perspective. In some parts of the EU you can get a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour - whereas here you can get a minimum wage five times that and then get Universal Credit on top of your waves too.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Things are worse here than they used to be. For those who rely on welfare they are bad full stop. I wish fewer people had to rely on welfare. I think we can treat those who do a whole lot better. I don't know if you have ever had to rely on state handouts to look after yourself and your family. I have. It is not a pleasant experience. And the system was a lot less punitive than it is now when I had to.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Your steering a bit too close to Victorian arguments for the undeserving poor. Even people who make mistakes need to eat, we all need to eat. Mistakes are irrelevant to that fact. I don’t see why we have to force people to beg for handouts, which may or not be there. I would favour a system that guarantees a good meal, makes everyone contribute and protects the dignity of people receiving help.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Your steering a bit too close to Victorian arguments for the undeserving poor. Even people who make mistakes need to eat, we all need to eat. Mistakes are irrelevant to that fact. I don’t see why we have to force people to beg for handouts, which may or not be there. I would favour a system that guarantees a good meal, makes everyone contribute and protects the dignity of people receiving help.
Ummm...yes, that was sort of my point. Because people make mistakes they will always need help. Therefore, your claim that it was a policy matter that could be fixed ‘easily and cheaply’ was wrong.
If you ask anyone working in the sector in London, they'll tell you foodbank use exploded around 2014-15. This was about a year after the first major welfare cuts and changes began to feed through, IIRC. There's absolutely no question that the rise has been linked to benefit cuts and sanctions.
And ask the 90% of people who live outside and they will tell you the mass closure of government offices under Labour which made it very hard to get benefits stuffed things up too.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
Incorrect. There was a huge demand for the services of foodbanks under Brown and Blair. They just made it nearly impossible to set them up or operate them effectively - for example, government agencies were discouraged from working with them to direct people who needed help there.
I was working with one from 2009 and it was a nightmare trying to sort out the red tape. Then Cameron adopted them as part of his ‘Big Society’ and everything became hugely easier.
And demand increased because significant cuts to welfare provision occurred, alongside a series of changes which made accessing welfare much harder and more time consuming. Or are you denying this has happened?
Yes. They're limited by supply and generosity not demand.
Unless you think that previously food banks had an abundance of food sat idle going in the bin because nobody wanted it?
If food banks are growing it means more people are being generous, not that more people need them. As more people get generous the food banks can reach more people than before. That's literally how charity works.
One thing I can't quite work out is just why the EU seem so obsessed about maintaining fishing rights. It must be a microscopic fraction of their economy. I can see why the UK is firm on it, but not the EU.
It impacts some eu countries like france a spain a lot if they can no longer fish our waters. Those countries have a veto and it doesn't play well at home for their leaders
But still, fishing must be a small percentage of France's economy. On the UK side there is the sovereignty issue, that doesn't apply to France.
As we lie amongst the smouldering ruins we can claim it was all worth it to regain our sovereignty, until we are reminded sovereignty was only ever lost in the minds of the Brexiteers.
Gosh hyperbole much? There will be no smoking ruins. We will be able to vote for politicians who can implement the manifesto they stood on even its labour. We won't have politicians making end runs around the things they know we won't accept as a nation by getting the eu to make it law...whats not to like?
As a nation we had sovereignty in the same way as the queen is the ultimate power in the land. As long as we don't try to use it we are sovereign
The sovereignty you're imagining will quickly dry up when the trade deals with China, India and the US come in. It doesn't exist in the modern world.
Trade deal with China lol. Have you even slightly been paying attention?
There will be eventually be a China-specific FTA on terms Brexiters hate ; India will demand immigration terms ; the US will make multiple demands on agriculture, food standards, and much else. The loss of "sovereignty" will simply be more obvious the larger the power.
No there won't. That's a deal the UK wouldn't sign. The US deal has already burned out now that Trump is gone.
You have no clue over what the UK has been prioritising wrt external trade. Take a look at what the actual deals we have signed have achieved before making these unfounded and grandiose claims about what the UK might do but in all likelihood won't.
These are just simple equations of power. The UK will unquestionably and eventually need specific deals with these huge economies, whatever it prioritises first and one way or the other, and they won't be on the terms wanted by the most faithful Brexit voters.
The point is that those deals won't be done. Part of why India has insisted on immigration being part of the equation is because they know it's an easy get out for them to not do one but still publicly be in favour of free trade. India has already withdrawn from RCEP because it doesn't really do free trade. The US deal has been covered here many times and the UK has a gigantic trade surplus with the US, there's no pressing need for a trade deal with the US, not Dr our perspective. Finally, the UK is already diversifying away from China and Chinese supply chains because of this whole virus crap, it would be completely against the run of play to sign a trade deal with China of any kind, if anything the government is likely to use national security concerns to close up Chinese import and investment over the next few years. We've already passed laws to that effect for investment so that Chinese companies are unable to buy up British companies on the cheap.
I don't agree here, I'm afraid. These are just far too huge powers for a post-Brexit Britain not to engage with specifically on trade, and in time it will.
Trade with these countries is already covered by WTO rules. We're a services based economy and services aren't subject to tariffs so we already export to all three of these countries on that basis without too many issues.
I mean we had predictions that Japan, South Korea and Canada would all give the UK worse terms of trade than the EU but that all turned out to be bullshit with all three interested in extending the current deals into new areas of digital and financial services similar to what we've just achieved with Singapore.
I think you just haven't got a clue about how international trade actually works. You don't need a trade deal to trade with a specific country and in none of these cases is one necessary.
I know I'm a bit late responding to this, but why is it bullshit? We haven't yet negotiated a trade deal with Japan, South Korea and Canada. We've rolled over our existing EU deal as a placeholder. We aren't going to leave it there and not negotiate a fresh deal otherwise what was the point in Brexit?
Its when we negotiate a deal on our terms and our preferences that you find out how international trade or trade in general actually works...
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Your steering a bit too close to Victorian arguments for the undeserving poor. Even people who make mistakes need to eat, we all need to eat. Mistakes are irrelevant to that fact. I don’t see why we have to force people to beg for handouts, which may or not be there. I would favour a system that guarantees a good meal, makes everyone contribute and protects the dignity of people receiving help.
Ummm...yes, that was sort of my point. Because people make mistakes they will always need help. Therefore, your claim that it was a policy matter that could be fixed ‘easily and cheaply’ was wrong.
It is not wrong, you design your policy to be funded and flexible enough to deal with mistakes.
Thanks Nick for that calm and objective analysis. Unfortunately, Brexiteers don't do calm and objective, so good luck persuading the angry Brexit culture warriors BTL.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
What if anecdotal experience isn't anything to go by?
Well, in fairness Joff that would render most of your posts null. Yet you’re mostly on the money with these things.
Of course, we base our views on our experience. That's why I have never seen welfare recipients as feckless wasters seeking to con the state out of money. I have not used a food bank, but I donate to one and I have very rarely come across anyone who uses it who does not need to because their circumstances are such that they would go hungry if they didn't. I do not remember coming across anyone who is there because they lost money on a bet. In my experience, you do not get to just walk into a food bank and take food, you have to demonstrate a need.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Your steering a bit too close to Victorian arguments for the undeserving poor. Even people who make mistakes need to eat, we all need to eat. Mistakes are irrelevant to that fact. I don’t see why we have to force people to beg for handouts, which may or not be there. I would favour a system that guarantees a good meal, makes everyone contribute and protects the dignity of people receiving help.
Ummm...yes, that was sort of my point. Because people make mistakes they will always need help. Therefore, your claim that it was a policy matter that could be fixed ‘easily and cheaply’ was wrong.
It is not wrong, you design your policy to be funded and flexible enough to deal with mistakes.
So someone gets their wages/welfare on a Friday, makes a silly mistake (or an outside shock like a breakdown occurs that takes all their money) and they have no cash left by Saturday. How do you easily and cheaply fix that mistake?
Having safety nets is meant to be a good thing. Why are you against safety nets?
If you ask anyone working in the sector in London, they'll tell you foodbank use exploded around 2014-15. This was about a year after the first major welfare cuts and changes began to feed through, IIRC. There's absolutely no question that the rise has been linked to benefit cuts and sanctions.
And ask the 90% of people who live outside and they will tell you the mass closure of government offices under Labour which made it very hard to get benefits stuffed things up too.
New Labour was often an ideogoical opponent of welfare, because of its sympathy for some aspects of Thatcherism - see its relationship with Atos, for instance. However, this doesn't change the fact that by far the most significant cuts among a range of benefits, and a far more significant rise in foodbank use, occurred up and down the country between around 2014-15, just when the impacts of the first welfare changes were kicking in.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Your steering a bit too close to Victorian arguments for the undeserving poor. Even people who make mistakes need to eat, we all need to eat. Mistakes are irrelevant to that fact. I don’t see why we have to force people to beg for handouts, which may or not be there. I would favour a system that guarantees a good meal, makes everyone contribute and protects the dignity of people receiving help.
Ummm...yes, that was sort of my point. Because people make mistakes they will always need help. Therefore, your claim that it was a policy matter that could be fixed ‘easily and cheaply’ was wrong.
It is not wrong, you design your policy to be funded and flexible enough to deal with mistakes.
If the UK was still an EU member and say another country decided to leave would the government be supporting the current EU stance?
You bet they would. So the constant whining and playing the victim by some Leavers is tiresome. No one forced the UK to leave and to be blunt all this guff about treating the UK as a sovereign equal ignores the reality that a block of 450 million people and 27 countries can afford to dictate terms .
Do people seriously think the USA treats Canada as a sovereign equal in trade terms . You can respect another countries sovereignty, doesn’t mean you’re not going to use your larger economy to get a better deal .
Leavers need a reality check !
We all know this is about politics and not economics. If it was purely economics the deal would have been done several years ago.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
In work welfare in this country is not at all shite from a global perspective. In some parts of the EU you can get a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour - whereas here you can get a minimum wage five times that and then get Universal Credit on top of your waves too.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Things are worse here than they used to be. For those who rely on welfare they are bad full stop. I wish fewer people had to rely on welfare. I think we can treat those who do a whole lot better. I don't know if you have ever had to rely on state handouts to look after yourself and your family. I have. It is not a pleasant experience. And the system was a lot less punitive than it is now when I had to.
I was involved with CAB and later Citizens Advice for over 40 years. I'm certain the situation is worse now, and more complex, and the attitude of many of the 'haves' seems to be hardening.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
You've never been through a hard time? The existence of support is a good thing not a bad thing.
Thousands begging for food, relying on last resort charity is not a good thing.
What's better, to have that last resort charity or not?
Under Labour, it wasn't there.
Labour on foodbanks really are c*nts. C*nts whilst in office for not allowing their provision, c*nts in opposition for trying to make political capital out of those who have set them up. C*nts for screaming that poverty only happens under Tories - when their own record is always leaving more unemployed than they inherited, due to their broken business model of how to run an economy.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
What if anecdotal experience isn't anything to go by?
Well, in fairness Joff that would render most of your posts null. Yet you’re mostly on the money with these things.
Of course, we base our views on our experience. That's why I have never seen welfare recipients as feckless wasters seeking to con the state out of money. I have not used a food bank, but I donate to one and I have very rarely come across anyone who uses it who does not need to because their circumstances are such that they would go hungry if they didn't. I do not remember coming across anyone who is there because they lost money on a bet. In my experience, you do not get to just walk into a food bank and take food, you have to demonstrate a need.
There will always be a need. Always has been, always will be. As you become better at fixing problems you just raise the threshold at defining what "need" is.
And people putting money into slot machines then realising they need food can and and does happen. People getting a car breakdown and then needing to get food can also happen.
I'd rather someone in need has options like a food bank to consider before eg an option like a Wonga Loan that was set up under Tony Blair's period of office.
That some people would rather food banks be not available but don't give a shit if people get into debt is not generosity or kind heartedness.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
Incorrect. There was a huge demand for the services of foodbanks under Brown and Blair. They just made it nearly impossible to set them up or operate them effectively - for example, government agencies were discouraged from working with them to direct people who needed help there.
I was working with one from 2009 and it was a nightmare trying to sort out the red tape. Then Cameron adopted them as part of his ‘Big Society’ and everything became hugely easier.
And demand increased because significant cuts to welfare provision occurred, alongside a series of changes which made accessing welfare much harder and more time consuming. Or are you denying this has happened?
Yes. They're limited by supply and generosity not demand.
Unless you think that previously food banks had an abundance of food sat idle going in the bin because nobody wanted it?
If food banks are growing it means more people are being generous, not that more people need them. As more people get generous the food banks can reach more people than before. That's literally how charity works.
Charity tends to work by people responding to an increased need. You see that a disaster has occurred, you donate some money. You see that there is a growing need for food, you donate money or food. But, as history shows, charity is no substitute for the state. It was only when the state got involved that endemic mass poverty began to decline to any significant degree here and elsewhere.
For me, this is a genuinely exciting choice between two options that both have much to recommend them. With a deal, we put all the recent uncertainty to bed, people on both sides can take a much needed break from thinking about it - the psychological benefits of the smoothest possible transition are not inconsiderable. Without one, undoubtedly the more exciting option, we galvanise the country around the subject of its own future prosperity in a way not seen since the 1930's. We become an independent, prosperous trading nation. I understand that people aren't as excited as me, and that you don't really enjoy reading this, but it's honestly how I feel.
And to think some people say that Brexit is driven by WW2 nostalgia!
For me it's more harking back to the spacious days of Good Queen Bess.
Luvvin' the England, this sceptred isle vibe.
When the UK breaks up in a few years time, we should apply market forces and let everyone in the UK decide which of the British Isles nation they wish to belong to.
I'll be opting to become a citizen of a Scotland committed to rejoining the EU, just saying.
There's a slightly tiresome meme on Twitter that when English folk say that they want to move to an indy Scotland, cheery Scots folk say that they'll put the kettle on. Nevertheless let me know when the move's happening and I'll put the kettle on
Haha thanks!
But I'm suggesting an independent Scotland should be more ambitious and seek a tax-paying citizen cohort from across the old UK.
I'll swear alleigance to the Scottish state, pay (possibly higher) Scottish taxes, support a Scottish welfare state, vote in Scottish elections, but live here in Dorset for the time being.
Seriously, Scotland should make a bid for this.A lot of high-earning progressives would opt in... and you'd probably end up with London ruled from Edinburgh!
PS Plan B would be to move to Scotland in 5-10 years.
I am getting on a bit to emigrate now, but could well fancy closing the loop with my Scots ancestors by moving north of the border to Indy Scotland.
I am moving north and closing the loop with my Scottish ancestors. Quid Clarius Astris.
As for HYUFD's incessant whining about the union ("it OUR country and you shan't have it. Shan't shan't SHAN'T") its a bit demeaning. Why would a senior Tory (in his little pond) want to keep throwing such a childish strop because people disagree with him and don't kiss the Johnson ring like he does?
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
What if anecdotal experience isn't anything to go by?
Well, in fairness Joff that would render most of your posts null. Yet you’re mostly on the money with these things.
Of course, we base our views on our experience. That's why I have never seen welfare recipients as feckless wasters seeking to con the state out of money. I have not used a food bank, but I donate to one and I have very rarely come across anyone who uses it who does not need to because their circumstances are such that they would go hungry if they didn't. I do not remember coming across anyone who is there because they lost money on a bet. In my experience, you do not get to just walk into a food bank and take food, you have to demonstrate a need.
There will always be a need. Always has been, always will be. As you become better at fixing problems you just raise the threshold at defining what "need" is.
And people putting money into slot machines then realising they need food can and and does happen. People getting a car breakdown and then needing to get food can also happen.
I'd rather someone in need has options like a food bank to consider before eg an option like a Wonga Loan that was set up under Tony Blair's period of office.
That some people would rather food banks be not available but don't give a shit if people get into debt is not generosity or kind heartedness.
Given there is a need for them, I would rather food banks existed than did not exist. I would also rather have the less punitive, more accessible and more generous welfare system that we had under Margaret Thatcher and John Major than we have now.
.... The next German government, a year from now, will presumably push increasingly harder in that direction. ...
Thre must be about a 50/50 chance that Merkel will still be Chancellor for the whole of 2021. Unless the AD vote drops dramatically , the coalition negotiations are likely to take over 3 months again as they did in 2017.
How so? Current opinion polls show CDU/CSU plus Greens easily getting a clear majority, so very different to 2017 when the FDP were also needed and were the ones who wouldn't agree to a coalition.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
You've never been through a hard time? The existence of support is a good thing not a bad thing.
Thousands begging for food, relying on last resort charity is not a good thing.
What's better, to have that last resort charity or not?
Under Labour, it wasn't there.
Labour on foodbanks really are c*nts. C*nts whilst in office for not allowing their provision, c*nts in opposition for trying to make political capital out of those who have set them up. C*nts for screaming that poverty only happens under Tories - when their own record is always leaving more unemployed than they inherited, due to their broken business model of how to run an economy.
However poor their own record on welfare and foodbanks, there's no reason why they shouldn't have drawn attention to the significantly worse record under the Tories, and its obvious correlation with self-consciously punitive, proudly advertised changes to the welfare system. Whatever you think of people, morally, you can't treat them all with assumptions much closer to those of pre-1945 Britain, and simultaneously expect their material and living conditions to remain the same.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
What if anecdotal experience isn't anything to go by?
Well, in fairness Joff that would render most of your posts null. Yet you’re mostly on the money with these things.
Of course, we base our views on our experience. That's why I have never seen welfare recipients as feckless wasters seeking to con the state out of money. I have not used a food bank, but I donate to one and I have very rarely come across anyone who uses it who does not need to because their circumstances are such that they would go hungry if they didn't. I do not remember coming across anyone who is there because they lost money on a bet. In my experience, you do not get to just walk into a food bank and take food, you have to demonstrate a need.
There will always be a need. Always has been, always will be. As you become better at fixing problems you just raise the threshold at defining what "need" is.
And people putting money into slot machines then realising they need food can and and does happen. People getting a car breakdown and then needing to get food can also happen.
I'd rather someone in need has options like a food bank to consider before eg an option like a Wonga Loan that was set up under Tony Blair's period of office.
That some people would rather food banks be not available but don't give a shit if people get into debt is not generosity or kind heartedness.
Given there is a need for them, I would rather food banks existed than did not exist. I would also rather have the less punitive, more accessible and more generous welfare system that we had under Margaret Thatcher and John Major than we have now.
That’s a fair position. But again, we come back to the start - they were needed before, just not available. That was what I was trying to get across, and why actually trying to use them to score points off the Tories is misguided.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
In work welfare in this country is not at all shite from a global perspective. In some parts of the EU you can get a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour - whereas here you can get a minimum wage five times that and then get Universal Credit on top of your waves too.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Things are worse here than they used to be. For those who rely on welfare they are bad full stop. I wish fewer people had to rely on welfare. I think we can treat those who do a whole lot better. I don't know if you have ever had to rely on state handouts to look after yourself and your family. I have. It is not a pleasant experience. And the system was a lot less punitive than it is now when I had to.
I was involved with CAB and later Citizens Advice for over 40 years. I'm certain the situation is worse now, and more complex, and the attitude of many of the 'haves' seems to be hardening.
Yes, it is always comforting to blame the poor and vulnerable for being poor and vulnerable.
If the UK was still an EU member and say another country decided to leave would the government be supporting the current EU stance?
You bet they would. So the constant whining and playing the victim by some Leavers is tiresome. No one forced the UK to leave and to be blunt all this guff about treating the UK as a sovereign equal ignores the reality that a block of 450 million people and 27 countries can afford to dictate terms .
Do people seriously think the USA treats Canada as a sovereign equal in trade terms . You can respect another countries sovereignty, doesn’t mean you’re not going to use your larger economy to get a better deal .
Leavers need a reality check !
We all know this is about politics and not economics. If it was purely economics the deal would have been done several years ago.
If it was purely economics we wouldn't have left.
Maybe, maybe not. Too early to say. UK average gdp growth since the much vaunted Single Market Act kicked in has hardly blown the roof off versus the decade prior. Certainly average wage growth since Eastern Enlargement has been tragically low.
For me, this is a genuinely exciting choice between two options that both have much to recommend them. With a deal, we put all the recent uncertainty to bed, people on both sides can take a much needed break from thinking about it - the psychological benefits of the smoothest possible transition are not inconsiderable. Without one, undoubtedly the more exciting option, we galvanise the country around the subject of its own future prosperity in a way not seen since the 1930's. We become an independent, prosperous trading nation. I understand that people aren't as excited as me, and that you don't really enjoy reading this, but it's honestly how I feel.
Brexit Kool Aid overdose.
Not at all - I've always felt this way and said as much. We have just suffered (and are suffering) the dislocation of a global plague - and doing ok. Problems find solutions. Anyone trading away long term benefits because of fear of short-term disruption isn't thinking straight.
You don’t become a trading nation by walking away from free trade.
Indeed not! Embrace free trade and abolish tariffs on imports. (Seriously)
Indeed. One of the first Brexit benefits should be that stuff, especially food, gets cheaper. UK needs very few import tarrifs.
Pity that because of the reimposition of red tape and the rather disastrous impact that time spend checking said red tape has on border crossings, stuff is getting more expensive not less.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Your steering a bit too close to Victorian arguments for the undeserving poor. Even people who make mistakes need to eat, we all need to eat. Mistakes are irrelevant to that fact. I don’t see why we have to force people to beg for handouts, which may or not be there. I would favour a system that guarantees a good meal, makes everyone contribute and protects the dignity of people receiving help.
Ummm...yes, that was sort of my point. Because people make mistakes they will always need help. Therefore, your claim that it was a policy matter that could be fixed ‘easily and cheaply’ was wrong.
It is not wrong, you design your policy to be funded and flexible enough to deal with mistakes.
So someone gets their wages/welfare on a Friday, makes a silly mistake (or an outside shock like a breakdown occurs that takes all their money) and they have no cash left by Saturday. How do you easily and cheaply fix that mistake?
Having safety nets is meant to be a good thing. Why are you against safety nets?
A food bank safety net? Great idea. But they aren't a safety net - they are daily life for far too many. The system is designed to fuck over the poor as hard as possible whilst gaslighting the "middle class" to blame the poor for their problems. The marginal rate of tax - which you yourself have rightly railed against - for people trying to get back on their feet is punative and deliberately so.
We have always had the poor and needy. But I have never before seen a government who sets out to design a system purposefully as punishing and demeaning as this.
The level playing field is an illusion. There is no such thing.
So Germany, for example, has a vastly superior education system. Maybe not for their top 5% but for the bulk of their population. They are more productive. This is exacerbated by their tendency to invest much more than we do. The result is generally superior products at more competitive prices in the world market. Well done them.
Now you add the LPF illusion. What you are saying is that those advantages should be consolidated, that their competitive advantages should not be vulnerable to us having a more flexible labour market (lower employment standards), a willingness to tolerate some pollution to get jobs (lower environmental standards) and a willingness as a society to invest in an industry to remain competitive (government aid).
Which, if you are Germany , makes a lot of sense. You protect your competitive advantage, your trade surplus and you stop people competing with you in other ways that are categorised as "unfair".
If you are in a club of countries that are broadly at the same level as the EEC was this may be tolerable. The upsides may outweigh the downsides (such as a permanent and large trade deficit in our case). But when we are no longer in that club what exactly are the upsides? We have to trade off our uncompetitive trade and deficit for what exactly? Access to a market that we are not competitive in. Hmm...
Re Barbara Windsor: I don't know if this is just me but I have always been rather concerned regarding the positive comments about her bearing in mind her relationships with truly nasty gangsters. She can't possibly not been aware of what they were up to.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
You've never been through a hard time? The existence of support is a good thing not a bad thing.
Thousands begging for food, relying on last resort charity is not a good thing.
What's better, to have that last resort charity or not?
Under Labour, it wasn't there.
Labour on foodbanks really are c*nts. C*nts whilst in office for not allowing their provision, c*nts in opposition for trying to make political capital out of those who have set them up. C*nts for screaming that poverty only happens under Tories - when their own record is always leaving more unemployed than they inherited, due to their broken business model of how to run an economy.
I'm not even surprised by this post as alt-fact as it is. Go and ask people reliant on the welfare state in 2000 what it was like and compare with someone in 2020. The idea that things were worse for the poor under Labour is laughable food banks or no.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
The idea that welfare in the UK is bad compared to the rest of Europe is clearly from someone who has never lived outside the UK.
I am sure that the idea that there are places in Eastern Europe poorer than the UK is of huge comfort to the thousands dependent on food banks this Christmas.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks? In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
What is going on in the EU is irrelevant. In a wealthy civilised society we should not need food banks. We didn’t need the before, we don’t have to rely on them now. No amount of whaterboutery changes that. If we can afford moonshots, we can afford to feed people.
You referenced Eastern Europe but your straw man turned out to be French - tres jolie! I hadn't realised you were so hostile to our friends in the EU - no doubt you're pleased at the way things are going.
Eh? I didn’t reference Romania. I was responding to another comment much as you are. But note you dodge the core issue.
Hungary is in eastern Europe - as is Romania - you really need to get out more
Again, clearly no problem with the core issue that thousands in the UK cannot afford the bare essentials in life and when hard times come they have to go begging for food.
A situation for which successive Conservative Governments are largely to blame.The incompetence and carelessness of Cameron and Osborne started it.
I simply don’t understand why it doesn’t bother some people that their countrymen and women cannot afford food and have to beg for handouts, especially when it would easily and pretty cheaply ended by changes in policy.
Would you like to know how many people come to food banks because they put all their money for that month on the 3.30 at Doncaster and the horse came last?
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
What if anecdotal experience isn't anything to go by?
Well, in fairness Joff that would render most of your posts null. Yet you’re mostly on the money with these things.
Of course, we base our views on our experience. That's why I have never seen welfare recipients as feckless wasters seeking to con the state out of money. I have not used a food bank, but I donate to one and I have very rarely come across anyone who uses it who does not need to because their circumstances are such that they would go hungry if they didn't. I do not remember coming across anyone who is there because they lost money on a bet. In my experience, you do not get to just walk into a food bank and take food, you have to demonstrate a need.
I don't think that incompatible with people often needing food banks because of their own poor life choices. Not all of course, but undeniably some are there because of alcoholism, drug addiction, and gambling. Many were dealt a crap hand at birth, many have underlying mental health issues, etc.
I think that Food banks became much more of a thing in the UK when delays and sanctions became built into the system, as well as the hostile environment approach to immigration. There has always been a need for such support, but it has developed because of government policy under both Tory and New Labour governments.
The level playing field is an illusion. There is no such thing.
So Germany, for example, has a vastly superior education system. Maybe not for their top 5% but for the bulk of their population. They are more productive. This is exacerbated by their tendency to invest much more than we do. The result is generally superior products at more competitive prices in the world market. Well done them.
Now you add the LPF illusion. What you are saying is that those advantages should be consolidated, that their competitive advantages should not be vulnerable to us having a more flexible labour market (lower employment standards), a willingness to tolerate some pollution to get jobs (lower environmental standards) and a willingness as a society to invest in an industry to remain competitive (government aid).
Which, if you are Germany , makes a lot of sense. You protect your competitive advantage, your trade surplus and you stop people competing with you in other ways that are categorised as "unfair".
If you are in a club of countries that are broadly at the same level as the EEC was this may be tolerable. The upsides may outweigh the downsides (such as a permanent and large trade deficit in our case). But when we are no longer in that club what exactly are the upsides? We have to trade off our uncompetitive trade and deficit for what exactly? Access to a market that we are not competitive in. Hmm...
Those UK businesses selling into the Single Market are clearly competitive within it. How do they and their employees benefit from having reduced access to it?
Re Barbara Windsor: I don't know if this is just me but I have always been rather concerned regarding the positive comments about her bearing in mind her relationships with truly nasty gangsters. She can't possibly not been aware of what they were up to.
Yes, it's obviously not good to speak ill of the recently deceased, and I always enjoyed her general presence, but I coudn't help noticing too in her obituary that in she had been involved in earlier life not just with one gangster but two or more than that.
I know that I have wound some PB Tories up in the past by talking morality, but for me this is a basic issue. It is immoral to treat people the way this government does. Universal Credit - by accident or design - acts to make people who have nothing get deeper into debt whilst belittling and demeaning them. UC makes it so much harder to escape poverty once you are on it. "We now have foodbanks" when the system literally leaves people no other source of food is not something to brag about.
I know that people have all kinds of reasons for why they vote for who they vote for. But can anyone please simply state a moral case in support for the practical realities of Universal Credit. A rational reason why trying to starve the poor and sick and dying is a just policy.
This isn't a left / right issue. No previous Tory government would have done this.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
In work welfare in this country is not at all shite from a global perspective. In some parts of the EU you can get a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour - whereas here you can get a minimum wage five times that and then get Universal Credit on top of your waves too.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Things are worse here than they used to be. For those who rely on welfare they are bad full stop. I wish fewer people had to rely on welfare. I think we can treat those who do a whole lot better. I don't know if you have ever had to rely on state handouts to look after yourself and your family. I have. It is not a pleasant experience. And the system was a lot less punitive than it is now when I had to.
I was involved with CAB and later Citizens Advice for over 40 years. I'm certain the situation is worse now, and more complex, and the attitude of many of the 'haves' seems to be hardening.
Yes, it is always comforting to blame the poor and vulnerable for being poor and vulnerable.
It's not just about blame though is it?
Do people screw up sometimes? Yes. Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Do people sometimes get into need for reasons out of their control? Yes. Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Offering a form of safety net doesn't mean being judgemental about why people get into need ... But it is important to understand why and that there is no easy fix to that.
At one point during Blair and Browns tenure every other advert on TV and Radio seemed to be for either payday or other forms of lenders, or ambulance chasing lawyers. So people were getting bombarded by messages to call Wonga if they were in difficulty but food banks weren't available.
Labour's Brexit line from here should be relatively straightforward: 1. The government lied to the British people about securing a great trade deal with the EU. 2. The government better not be lying to the British people about the UK prospering mightily without that trade deal.
Nandy was talking shite this morning. Incoherent. Pure politicking.
Nandy recognises the issue - too many working class Labour voters want "Brexit" whatever that is. She also knows that getting Brexit wrong is going to screw over those same working class Labour voters who will turn round and say "that isn't the Brexit we voted for".
Labour needs to vote for Brexit to heal the wounds of 2016. But if it votes for Brexit it creates new wounds - "why didn't you protect our jobs / livelihoods?"
It is incoherent because Brexit is incoherent. People want an idea. The reality will harm them. So as their representative do you allow them to self harm or prevent them?
EDIT - there was of course a solution. Define Brexit as what it is - leaving the European Union. Nothing more. No deal to self harm by leaving the EEA and CU, but again people don't know what Brexit or the EU or those other things actually are.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
In work welfare in this country is not at all shite from a global perspective. In some parts of the EU you can get a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour - whereas here you can get a minimum wage five times that and then get Universal Credit on top of your waves too.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Things are worse here than they used to be. For those who rely on welfare they are bad full stop. I wish fewer people had to rely on welfare. I think we can treat those who do a whole lot better. I don't know if you have ever had to rely on state handouts to look after yourself and your family. I have. It is not a pleasant experience. And the system was a lot less punitive than it is now when I had to.
I was involved with CAB and later Citizens Advice for over 40 years. I'm certain the situation is worse now, and more complex, and the attitude of many of the 'haves' seems to be hardening.
Yes, it is always comforting to blame the poor and vulnerable for being poor and vulnerable.
It's not just about blame though is it?
Do people screw up sometimes? Yes. Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Do people sometimes get into need for reasons out of their control? Yes. Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Offering a form of safety net doesn't mean being judgemental about why people get into need ... But it is important to understand why and that there is no easy fix to that.
At one point during Blair and Browns tenure every other advert on TV and Radio seemed to be for either payday or other forms of lenders, or ambulance chasing lawyers. So people were getting bombarded by messages to call Wonga if they were in difficulty but food banks weren't available.
The idea need didn't exist a decade ago is a lie.
It did, but the last-resort demand for foodbanks, the demand with no options or easy choices involved in it, was significantly less.
Can someone explain what benefit we get for abandoning freedom of movement for Brits., much high insurance costs of visiting EU countries, higher food price in the UK among many negatives, UK motor manufacturing reduced etc
Simple we stop allowing in low value immigrants. I am entirely unphased by the number or nationality but its a simple fact that immigrants that are not net contributors to the treasury means that the public service pie has to stretch further without additional money. Explain to me why a minimum wage barista of any nationality is worth having as an immigrant
Wouldn't it be simpler to let the free market decide that?
Absolutely.
No Universal Credit or other wage related welfare for non-citizens and an annual NHS subscription fee. If they still want to come then welcome with open arms, if they only want to come for welfare then no thanks.
Nobody in their right mind would come here for welfare. Living on welfare in 2020 Britain is utter shite.
Only someone very entitled and sheltered from a global perspective could say that.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
Only someone who does not have to live on welfare would argue with the notion that living on welfare is shite. It keeps you alive, but restricts your life and the choices you can make in any number of ways. The idea that people flock to the UK to take advantage of our welfare system is for the fairies - especially as EU immigration is falling as it rises from elsewhere.
In work welfare in this country is not at all shite from a global perspective. In some parts of the EU you can get a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour - whereas here you can get a minimum wage five times that and then get Universal Credit on top of your waves too.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Things are worse here than they used to be. For those who rely on welfare they are bad full stop. I wish fewer people had to rely on welfare. I think we can treat those who do a whole lot better. I don't know if you have ever had to rely on state handouts to look after yourself and your family. I have. It is not a pleasant experience. And the system was a lot less punitive than it is now when I had to.
I was involved with CAB and later Citizens Advice for over 40 years. I'm certain the situation is worse now, and more complex, and the attitude of many of the 'haves' seems to be hardening.
Yes, it is always comforting to blame the poor and vulnerable for being poor and vulnerable.
It's not just about blame though is it?
Do people screw up sometimes? Yes. Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Do people sometimes get into need for reasons out of their control? Yes. Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Offering a form of safety net doesn't mean being judgemental about why people get into need ... But it is important to understand why and that there is no easy fix to that.
At one point during Blair and Browns tenure every other advert on TV and Radio seemed to be for either payday or other forms of lenders, or ambulance chasing lawyers. So people were getting bombarded by messages to call Wonga if they were in difficulty but food banks weren't available.
The idea need didn't exist a decade ago is a lie.
It is a lie to claim anyone said they did not exist.
Personally I have no problem signing up to the LPF. By and large, such environmental, occupational and food regulations coming out of the EU are well thought through, well drafted and key protections of our own standards. There are many reasons that I am pro-EU, but the LPF regulations in the Single Market are one of them.
The Coronavirus figures in the UK are supremely depressing.
Cases are moving back upwards. The fall in hospitalisations has flattened of. The ONS weekly deaths figure is still growing.
But sure, let's whinge about how areas are not in low enough tier levels.
Christmas is going to be murder.
Digging a little deeper, South Wales and (mostly East) London (and adjacent parts of Kent/Essex) seem to be getting into deeper trouble, the North is still recovering, and everywhere else you could say is at least stable if not still drifting better? Zoom into the interactive map and a lot of rural England has so few cases that data is being supressed.
As mentioned yesterday, they know if it goes wrong in the first three years, the project is stuffed. We wait to see what great treasures and opportunities the Brexiters have lined up for us. They've had a very long time to think about it, so let's see the goods.
Comments
Brown always had to use stealth taxes, fiscal drag and borrowing to raise additional funds, as he knew just coming out and saying OK we need to tax you a load more, doesn't go down well. Think about how badly IHT stuff went down, when it basically doesn't even effect that many people.
The idea that Europe featured anywhere in the minds of most British voters is just laughably ridiculous. No one cared. No one. Except the ideologues on the right of the tory party.
The rest of us got on with our lives. We enjoyed sauntering around Europe and, like most Europeans, we enjoyed having the occasional laugh at the EU's moments of silliness.
And of course you seemed to overlook, no talk of joining the Euro, when all the other major nations were, because again, he knew it wasn't going to fly....so Balls came up with 5 impossible tests to ensure we couldn't join it.
To say, no, it never featured, ever, is totally rewriting of history. 2000s, we still had an uncomfortable relationship with the EU, be it the Euro, the Lisbon Treaty, every politician had to walk a fine line, but was lesser focus as economy was going well.
If it was a non-issue in the public's minds, when Cameron offered the referendum just for the Tory MPs / UKIP, he would have won it easily wouldn't he...like AV referendum, people looked at that and went nought wrong with FPTP, no change required, what's all this nonsense about.
We left the ERM in 1992 in case you've forgotten so there was no chance thereafter that we would join the Euro. And the Lisbon treaty? You really are in a bubble if you think that. I guarantee if you ask the British public now to tell you what the Lisbon treaty was about you would get less than 0.01% correct answers.
No one cared sufficiently about it for it to be an issue. Opinion polling and Exit polling on the day at General Elections confirms I'm right.
And at the first opportunity, we voted out. Where as, AV, the public went don't be silly. In places like Stoke, it was coming, you could tell, solid Labour place forever and you talk to people and they were super pissed about EU stuff way before we got to referendum. They didn't need much convincing.
Enough. Life is too short so stick with your view if you wish and, with respect, you've not altered mine on this occasion.
Have a good day.
If you think life is so shite in Britain why not try moving to eg Romania and working a minimum wage job there with whatever welfare they'll supply you with and see how much your life improves by?
2009 Euros - 16.5%
2014 Euros - 27%
They didn't just appear post 2015. The Lib Dems can only dream of getting that many votes in an election these days.
UKIP then always did crap at the GE, because the Tories would show some anti-EU skirt.
No one in the UK, a rich nation, should be dependent on a food bank. It’s Dickensian.
Google:
"Does Europe have food banks?
In the EU, almost 19 million people, or six per cent of the Union's population, currently turn to food banks. With about 3.6 million people served, France's food banks are the second in coverage worldwide and the largest in Europe (19 per cent of the EU total)."
You clearly need to get out more
We now have a vast number of volunteers working with local supermarkets, ensuring that a mass of food gets to those without, rather than tipped into landfill.
I know which I consider progress.
I was working with one from 2009 and it was a nightmare trying to sort out the red tape. Then Cameron adopted them as part of his ‘Big Society’ and everything became hugely easier.
I don’t have a figure, but if anecdotal experience is anything to go by it’s a lot. You can’t legislate for that sort of stupidity. It’s up there with LuckyGuy1983’s ardent and totally false belief that the Titanic was really the Olympic.
Just because you wish things were better does not mean things are bad here.
Suggesting ending food banks is easy is like suggesting ending welfare is easy. It's better to have the support available and not need it than need it and not have it.
On comparisons, our welfare levels are certainly significant worse than our neighbours in northern europe. Affluent northern europe, rather than eastern or southern europe, should logically be the yardstick.
Unless you think that previously food banks had an abundance of food sat idle going in the bin because nobody wanted it?
If food banks are growing it means more people are being generous, not that more people need them. As more people get generous the food banks can reach more people than before. That's literally how charity works.
Its when we negotiate a deal on our terms and our preferences that you find out how international trade or trade in general actually works...
Having safety nets is meant to be a good thing. Why are you against safety nets?
Under Labour, it wasn't there.
Labour on foodbanks really are c*nts. C*nts whilst in office for not allowing their provision, c*nts in opposition for trying to make political capital out of those who have set them up. C*nts for screaming that poverty only happens under Tories - when their own record is always leaving more unemployed than they inherited, due to their broken business model of how to run an economy.
And people putting money into slot machines then realising they need food can and and does happen. People getting a car breakdown and then needing to get food can also happen.
I'd rather someone in need has options like a food bank to consider before eg an option like a Wonga Loan that was set up under Tony Blair's period of office.
That some people would rather food banks be not available but don't give a shit if people get into debt is not generosity or kind heartedness.
As for HYUFD's incessant whining about the union ("it OUR country and you shan't have it. Shan't shan't SHAN'T") its a bit demeaning. Why would a senior Tory (in his little pond) want to keep throwing such a childish strop because people disagree with him and don't kiss the Johnson ring like he does?
F1: Russell, Bottas, and Verstappen were 2.87 each to win.
With Hamilton's return, he's 1.36, and the other two in top cars are 6.
Great driver, but it makes things more tedious.
Have a good day.
We have always had the poor and needy. But I have never before seen a government who sets out to design a system purposefully as punishing and demeaning as this.
Cases are moving back upwards. The fall in hospitalisations has flattened of. The ONS weekly deaths figure is still growing.
But sure, let's whinge about how areas are not in low enough tier levels.
Christmas is going to be murder.
So Germany, for example, has a vastly superior education system. Maybe not for their top 5% but for the bulk of their population. They are more productive. This is exacerbated by their tendency to invest much more than we do. The result is generally superior products at more competitive prices in the world market. Well done them.
Now you add the LPF illusion. What you are saying is that those advantages should be consolidated, that their competitive advantages should not be vulnerable to us having a more flexible labour market (lower employment standards), a willingness to tolerate some pollution to get jobs (lower environmental standards) and a willingness as a society to invest in an industry to remain competitive (government aid).
Which, if you are Germany , makes a lot of sense. You protect your competitive advantage, your trade surplus and you stop people competing with you in other ways that are categorised as "unfair".
If you are in a club of countries that are broadly at the same level as the EEC was this may be tolerable. The upsides may outweigh the downsides (such as a permanent and large trade deficit in our case). But when we are no longer in that club what exactly are the upsides? We have to trade off our uncompetitive trade and deficit for what exactly? Access to a market that we are not competitive in. Hmm...
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1337301570283827200
I think that Food banks became much more of a thing in the UK when delays and sanctions became built into the system, as well as the hostile environment approach to immigration. There has always been a need for such support, but it has developed because of government policy under both Tory and New Labour governments.
I know that people have all kinds of reasons for why they vote for who they vote for. But can anyone please simply state a moral case in support for the practical realities of Universal Credit. A rational reason why trying to starve the poor and sick and dying is a just policy.
This isn't a left / right issue. No previous Tory government would have done this.
Do people screw up sometimes? Yes.
Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Do people sometimes get into need for reasons out of their control? Yes.
Should they go hungry because of it? Should their kids go hungry because of it? No.
Offering a form of safety net doesn't mean being judgemental about why people get into need ... But it is important to understand why and that there is no easy fix to that.
At one point during Blair and Browns tenure every other advert on TV and Radio seemed to be for either payday or other forms of lenders, or ambulance chasing lawyers. So people were getting bombarded by messages to call Wonga if they were in difficulty but food banks weren't available.
The idea need didn't exist a decade ago is a lie.
1. The government lied to the British people about securing a great trade deal with the EU.
2. The government better not be lying to the British people about the UK prospering mightily without that trade deal.
Labour needs to vote for Brexit to heal the wounds of 2016. But if it votes for Brexit it creates new wounds - "why didn't you protect our jobs / livelihoods?"
It is incoherent because Brexit is incoherent. People want an idea. The reality will harm them. So as their representative do you allow them to self harm or prevent them?
EDIT - there was of course a solution. Define Brexit as what it is - leaving the European Union. Nothing more. No deal to self harm by leaving the EEA and CU, but again people don't know what Brexit or the EU or those other things actually are.