Mr. Walker, if the EU does want the right to direct laws on us (via LPF means) and exact penalties which cannot be reciprocated if we do not follow their lead in that manner, that does seem beyond the bounds of acceptability.
A problem for Macron and Rejoiners is that the theory we'll leave, suffer a lot, and then want to rejoin or have a deal effectively dictated by the EU is that we'll already have a permanently instituted political division. As we saw with Scotland/Holyrood, impose a political dividing line and a divide will grow of its own accord.
A lot of turbulence and problems will arise if we leave without a deal.
But if we weather that for years then get back on an even keel and start adjusting to a new normal, the appetite to be legally subjugated via LPF and so on to an entity that is deemed (by some, at least) to have caused it may be rather less than the Adonises of this world believe. Not only that, the economy will have started adapting to the changed state of affairs.
The EU will, perhaps excepting a couple of months into No Deal turmoil, never have more political leverage than it does now because the change will be sudden, abrupt, and not to our advantage. That leverage will then diminish with each passing day thereafter, but the resentment stoked up will linger more persistently.
That's not good for us, or the EU, or Europe. But it may be what we'll get.
You are presuming that the resentment will be aimed at the EU, rather than the Government, of course.
Sure some of the frothers will continue to moan and whinge about the EU in perpetuity but there's no guarantee that the greater public will blame the EU when they've been told for years that leaving the EU, especially without a deal, is nothing but sunlit uplands and green pastures.
Actually I would concur with Morris-Dancer and expect the early months of 2021 to be extremely controversial but the country will adapt and I also expect talks with the EU to continue for months and years to come as each side comes to terms with the new reality of the UK outside the EU but as a friendly and cooperative nation
Of course if it does go pear shaped Starmer should win 2024 on a rejoin the single market and customs union manifesto
Lots of uncertainty but most crisis do not end with the worst case scenario
You should go back and read your posts from the earlier part of 2019, if only for the novelty of encountering an entirely different version of yourself.
You know, the problems in society are most often caused by people following a blind dogma while I do adopt, adapt and improve and if this is a problem for you so be it
But the dogma is what is driving us toward the cliff.
Being concerned about the real world implications of a no deal exit - which you were, up until it collided with your reluctance to follow through on your own promises - is not dogma, but sensible politics.
I am concerned, very concerned, but also cannot accept the EU want to control our coastal waters and keep us locked into their legislation when they do not insist on it with any other third country
You obviously have no connection with fishing communities and every country has a right to protect the resources in their own coastal waters
They do. But as with all things you have to weigh them up in the round. Industrial, steel, mining communities had the right to protect their resources but that didn't stop our government allowing these industries to be wound down and replaced by imports. Fishing is important, but is it the hill for our government to die on when its such a small percentage of our economy?
Besides which, so many in these fishing communities you speak of have woken up to the big problem with Brexit - export. As most of the fish they catch is consumed outside the UK they need to be able to efficiently export their new catch, and the deal thats being done appears to be deliberately designed to impede that...
Mining communities did not elect lots of Tory MPs in the 1980s, the fishing community has elected lots of Tory MPs now.
If you want a Tory government to listen to you you therefore need to elect Tory MPs
@HYUFD loudly and proudly proclaims that this is one "glorious" nation and yet only believes that people's views, wants, and needs should be taken into account if they elect Tory MPs.
Given fishing is worth sod all in the grand scheme of the UK economy I'm surprised the government hasn't sold out the fishing community like they have done the Northern Irish.
Is a no brainer.
I think you're missing the rather important point that fishing is important to the EU. That's why it's a sticking point.
No one really cares about Northern Ireland.
Most Northern Irish people are actually happy with the great deal they are getting (bar the DUP), still effectively in the single market and no hard border with the Irish Republic and technically part of the UK and minimised trade checks with GB, if we go to No Deal ironically the only part of the UK that will grow is probably Northern Ireland, invest in NI therefore now
Which means the Scots will want to do the same. All part of the glorious UK innit?
No. Scotland has no border with a non UK country unlike NI and voted 55% to stay part of the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Scotland will therefore come out of the EU with a basic FTA or on WTO terms like the rest of us
It's got a border all right. It's called the North Channel, and there's another one called the North Sea. Complete with ferry routes.
No land border, Scotland's only land border is with England but we are all part of one glorious Union and we Tories will ensure Scots remain part of our glorious Union for the rest of our time in office and enjoy the fruits of the great new Brexit future we will have in GB under Boris.
OK fresh from the farm gate (ok my mate who's a grain merchant) re Brexit.
1. Farmers are just carrying on carrying on in the absence of any knowledge of what the govt is going to do. 2. Exporters are using agents for the paperwork so any change in tariffs won't touch them although no one knows the appetite given increased pricing. 3. British Lamb farming will end overnight in the event of tariffs. 4. The end to subsidies might encourage new farmers into the sector given the huge subsidies huge landowners currently get (ie they don't want to sell or let). 5. The main problem with a not wholly unwelcome restructuring of British farming is the timeframes involved. Everything takes 18-24 months before rotations have been completed and new markets created or found.
@HYUFD loudly and proudly proclaims that this is one "glorious" nation and yet only believes that people's views, wants, and needs should be taken into account if they elect Tory MPs.
That's quite some mental gymnastics.
Indeed. It's not even as if NI has left the UK: so why is it OK for Mr J to put a border down the irish Sea but not allow the Scots similar EU membership status?
Given fishing is worth sod all in the grand scheme of the UK economy I'm surprised the government hasn't sold out the fishing community like they have done the Northern Irish.
Is a no brainer.
I think you're missing the rather important point that fishing is important to the EU. That's why it's a sticking point.
No one really cares about Northern Ireland.
Most Northern Irish people are actually happy with the great deal they are getting (bar the DUP), still effectively in the single market and no hard border with the Irish Republic and technically part of the UK and minimised trade checks with GB, if we go to No Deal ironically the only part of the UK that will grow is probably Northern Ireland, invest in NI therefore now
Which means the Scots will want to do the same. All part of the glorious UK innit?
No. Scotland has no border with a non UK country unlike NI and voted 55% to stay part of the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Scotland will therefore come out of the EU with a basic FTA or on WTO terms like the rest of us
It's got a border all right. It's called the North Channel, and there's another one called the North Sea. Complete with ferry routes.
No land border, Scotland's only land border is with England but we are all part of one glorious Union and we Tories will ensure Scots remain part of our glorious Union for the rest of our time in office and enjoy the fruits of the great new Brexit future we will have in GB under Boris.
No need to thank us!
You said "border". Not "land".
Why are they building customs posts at Dover if it weren't a border? Do you still think thje English own Calais?!
OK fresh from the farm gate (ok my mate who's a grain merchant) re Brexit.
1. Farmers are just carrying on carrying on in the absence of any knowledge of what the govt is going to do. 2. Exporters are using agents for the paperwork so any change in tariffs won't touch them although no one knows the appetite given increased pricing. 3. British Lamb farming will end overnight in the event of tariffs. 4. The end to subsidies might encourage new farmers into the sector given the huge subsidies huge landowners currently get (ie they don't want to sell or let). 5. The main problem with a not wholly unwelcome restructuring of British farming is the timeframes involved. Everything takes 18-24 months before rotations have been completed and new markets created or found.
Out.
That will be a lot of very unhappy Tory voters and, in particular, key political activists in the party in sheep copuntry. Perthshire, Aberdeenshire, Moray, Banff and Buchan, Dumfriesshire, Galloway, the Borders ...
Given fishing is worth sod all in the grand scheme of the UK economy I'm surprised the government hasn't sold out the fishing community like they have done the Northern Irish.
Is a no brainer.
I think you're missing the rather important point that fishing is important to the EU. That's why it's a sticking point.
No one really cares about Northern Ireland.
Most Northern Irish people are actually happy with the great deal they are getting (bar the DUP), still effectively in the single market and no hard border with the Irish Republic and technically part of the UK and minimised trade checks with GB, if we go to No Deal ironically the only part of the UK that will grow is probably Northern Ireland, invest in NI therefore now
Which means the Scots will want to do the same. All part of the glorious UK innit?
No. Scotland has no border with a non UK country unlike NI and voted 55% to stay part of the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Scotland will therefore come out of the EU with a basic FTA or on WTO terms like the rest of us
It's got a border all right. It's called the North Channel, and there's another one called the North Sea. Complete with ferry routes.
No land border, Scotland's only land border is with England but we are all part of one glorious Union and we Tories will ensure Scots remain part of our glorious Union for the rest of our time in office and enjoy the fruits of the great new Brexit future we will have in GB under Boris.
No need to thank us!
You said "border". Not "land".
Why are they building customs posts at Dover if it weren't a border? Do you still think thje English own Calais?!
It sounds like even No Deal won’t make John Redwood happy:
Fisheries: A proposal for a Regulation to create the appropriate legal framework until 31 December 2021, or until a fisheries agreement with the UK has been concluded – whichever date is earlier – for continued reciprocal access by EU and UK vessels to each other's waters after 31 December 2020. In order to guarantee the sustainability of fisheries and in light of the importance of fisheries for the economic livelihood of many communities, it is necessary to facilitate the procedures of authorisation of fishing vessels.
How would UK agree to that fisheries plan? No chance..
@HYUFD loudly and proudly proclaims that this is one "glorious" nation and yet only believes that people's views, wants, and needs should be taken into account if they elect Tory MPs.
That's quite some mental gymnastics.
That is fake news. They also have to be royalists and CofE, not just elect a Tory.
Mr. Walker, if the EU does want the right to direct laws on us (via LPF means) and exact penalties which cannot be reciprocated if we do not follow their lead in that manner, that does seem beyond the bounds of acceptability.
A problem for Macron and Rejoiners is that the theory we'll leave, suffer a lot, and then want to rejoin or have a deal effectively dictated by the EU is that we'll already have a permanently instituted political division. As we saw with Scotland/Holyrood, impose a political dividing line and a divide will grow of its own accord.
A lot of turbulence and problems will arise if we leave without a deal.
But if we weather that for years then get back on an even keel and start adjusting to a new normal, the appetite to be legally subjugated via LPF and so on to an entity that is deemed (by some, at least) to have caused it may be rather less than the Adonises of this world believe. Not only that, the economy will have started adapting to the changed state of affairs.
The EU will, perhaps excepting a couple of months into No Deal turmoil, never have more political leverage than it does now because the change will be sudden, abrupt, and not to our advantage. That leverage will then diminish with each passing day thereafter, but the resentment stoked up will linger more persistently.
That's not good for us, or the EU, or Europe. But it may be what we'll get.
You are presuming that the resentment will be aimed at the EU, rather than the Government, of course.
Sure some of the frothers will continue to moan and whinge about the EU in perpetuity but there's no guarantee that the greater public will blame the EU when they've been told for years that leaving the EU, especially without a deal, is nothing but sunlit uplands and green pastures.
Actually I would concur with Morris-Dancer and expect the early months of 2021 to be extremely controversial but the country will adapt and I also expect talks with the EU to continue for months and years to come as each side comes to terms with the new reality of the UK outside the EU but as a friendly and cooperative nation
Of course if it does go pear shaped Starmer should win 2024 on a rejoin the single market and customs union manifesto
Lots of uncertainty but most crisis do not end with the worst case scenario
You should go back and read your posts from the earlier part of 2019, if only for the novelty of encountering an entirely different version of yourself.
You know, the problems in society are most often caused by people following a blind dogma while I do adopt, adapt and improve and if this is a problem for you so be it
But the dogma is what is driving us toward the cliff.
Being concerned about the real world implications of a no deal exit - which you were, up until it collided with your reluctance to follow through on your own promises - is not dogma, but sensible politics.
I am concerned, very concerned, but also cannot accept the EU want to control our coastal waters and keep us locked into their legislation when they do not insist on it with any other third country
You obviously have no connection with fishing communities and every country has a right to protect the resources in their own coastal waters
They do. But as with all things you have to weigh them up in the round. Industrial, steel, mining communities had the right to protect their resources but that didn't stop our government allowing these industries to be wound down and replaced by imports. Fishing is important, but is it the hill for our government to die on when its such a small percentage of our economy?
Besides which, so many in these fishing communities you speak of have woken up to the big problem with Brexit - export. As most of the fish they catch is consumed outside the UK they need to be able to efficiently export their new catch, and the deal thats being done appears to be deliberately designed to impede that...
Mining communities did not elect lots of Tory MPs in the 1980s, the fishing community has elected lots of Tory MPs now.
If you want a Tory government to listen to you you therefore need to elect Tory MPs
Gotya. If an industry of strategic importance doesn't want to be wilfully destroyed by the mendacious actions of the Tories they need to vote Tory.
Its like the mob isn't it. "Nice coal mine. Shame if someone closed it down..."
Technically more mines closed under Wilson than Thatcher anyway
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Thats no problem. If its no deal on anything then I assume the we are happy with no arrangements in place to allow our planes to fly, our trucks to drive etc etc...
Mr. Walker, if the EU does want the right to direct laws on us (via LPF means) and exact penalties which cannot be reciprocated if we do not follow their lead in that manner, that does seem beyond the bounds of acceptability.
A problem for Macron and Rejoiners is that the theory we'll leave, suffer a lot, and then want to rejoin or have a deal effectively dictated by the EU is that we'll already have a permanently instituted political division. As we saw with Scotland/Holyrood, impose a political dividing line and a divide will grow of its own accord.
A lot of turbulence and problems will arise if we leave without a deal.
But if we weather that for years then get back on an even keel and start adjusting to a new normal, the appetite to be legally subjugated via LPF and so on to an entity that is deemed (by some, at least) to have caused it may be rather less than the Adonises of this world believe. Not only that, the economy will have started adapting to the changed state of affairs.
The EU will, perhaps excepting a couple of months into No Deal turmoil, never have more political leverage than it does now because the change will be sudden, abrupt, and not to our advantage. That leverage will then diminish with each passing day thereafter, but the resentment stoked up will linger more persistently.
That's not good for us, or the EU, or Europe. But it may be what we'll get.
You are presuming that the resentment will be aimed at the EU, rather than the Government, of course.
Sure some of the frothers will continue to moan and whinge about the EU in perpetuity but there's no guarantee that the greater public will blame the EU when they've been told for years that leaving the EU, especially without a deal, is nothing but sunlit uplands and green pastures.
Actually I would concur with Morris-Dancer and expect the early months of 2021 to be extremely controversial but the country will adapt and I also expect talks with the EU to continue for months and years to come as each side comes to terms with the new reality of the UK outside the EU but as a friendly and cooperative nation
Of course if it does go pear shaped Starmer should win 2024 on a rejoin the single market and customs union manifesto
Lots of uncertainty but most crisis do not end with the worst case scenario
You should go back and read your posts from the earlier part of 2019, if only for the novelty of encountering an entirely different version of yourself.
You know, the problems in society are most often caused by people following a blind dogma while I do adopt, adapt and improve and if this is a problem for you so be it
But the dogma is what is driving us toward the cliff.
Being concerned about the real world implications of a no deal exit - which you were, up until it collided with your reluctance to follow through on your own promises - is not dogma, but sensible politics.
I am concerned, very concerned, but also cannot accept the EU want to control our coastal waters and keep us locked into their legislation when they do not insist on it with any other third country
You obviously have no connection with fishing communities and every country has a right to protect the resources in their own coastal waters
They do. But as with all things you have to weigh them up in the round. Industrial, steel, mining communities had the right to protect their resources but that didn't stop our government allowing these industries to be wound down and replaced by imports. Fishing is important, but is it the hill for our government to die on when its such a small percentage of our economy?
Besides which, so many in these fishing communities you speak of have woken up to the big problem with Brexit - export. As most of the fish they catch is consumed outside the UK they need to be able to efficiently export their new catch, and the deal thats being done appears to be deliberately designed to impede that...
Mining communities did not elect lots of Tory MPs in the 1980s, the fishing community has elected lots of Tory MPs now.
If you want a Tory government to listen to you you therefore need to elect Tory MPs
Gotya. If an industry of strategic importance doesn't want to be wilfully destroyed by the mendacious actions of the Tories they need to vote Tory.
Its like the mob isn't it. "Nice coal mine. Shame if someone closed it down..."
Technically more mines closed under Wilson than Thatcher anyway
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
IIRC at least in Scotland they replaced a lot of inefficient small mines with many [edit] fewer superpits such as Longannet and Bilston Glen. Huge investment there.
Edit: and also in council housing schemes to move the miners to the new pits.
Given fishing is worth sod all in the grand scheme of the UK economy I'm surprised the government hasn't sold out the fishing community like they have done the Northern Irish.
Is a no brainer.
I think you're missing the rather important point that fishing is important to the EU. That's why it's a sticking point.
No one really cares about Northern Ireland.
Most Northern Irish people are actually happy with the great deal they are getting (bar the DUP), still effectively in the single market and no hard border with the Irish Republic and technically part of the UK and minimised trade checks with GB, if we go to No Deal ironically the only part of the UK that will grow is probably Northern Ireland, invest in NI therefore now
Which means the Scots will want to do the same. All part of the glorious UK innit?
No. Scotland has no border with a non UK country unlike NI and voted 55% to stay part of the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Scotland will therefore come out of the EU with a basic FTA or on WTO terms like the rest of us
It's got a border all right. It's called the North Channel, and there's another one called the North Sea. Complete with ferry routes.
No land border, Scotland's only land border is with England but we are all part of one glorious Union and we Tories will ensure Scots remain part of our glorious Union for the rest of our time in office and enjoy the fruits of the great new Brexit future we will have in GB under Boris.
No need to thank us!
I don't have strong feelings one way or another re Independence, but I am wondering why you are so fervent about the status quo? How would you have felt about India in 1947 or Canada, Kenya, etc. Were they all wrong and if not why not? If it is just cos it is physically connected why is that important? Again many examples of those splits.
Well obviously physically we are far closer to Scotland than any of them and none of them voted to stay part of the UK as the Scots did in the once in a generation 2014 referendum
Looks like we either get a clean Brexit or a good deal.
Exciting interesting times either way.
Can that be your only comment for today on the subject please we all know your views.
After you say that to everyone else whose views are known rather than being obsessed with one individual. Go on, lets see you be so arrogant with someone you agree with.
I will not be holding my breath waiting for you to do so.
If TSE or Mike Smithson instruct me to stop posting I will. Not you.
Tbf he told me to stop posting about it being best for the centrists if the LDs disbanded.
More like applying the thumb screws. This will kick off a political row even about No Deal.
F*ck sake. What a sh*t show this is. 😂😂
The whole thing is just being conducted poorly now. Yes the UK has been awful, but the EU is hardly helping matters with its approach
The problem is that this attitude suggests that the UK has a "right" to be treated "nicely" by the EU.
@HYUFD has no problem asserting that if Scotland voted to become independent then rUK would have no obligation to be "fair" or "amicable" towards Scotland when negotiating future arrangements.
And yet Brexiteers expect the same from the EU?
I personally think we should treat Scotland nicely in such a scenario, and that the EU should be treating us nicely in this scenario.
However, one can hardly blame the EU after the nonsense the majority of the people in the current government have been spouting for years and years and years.
Given fishing is worth sod all in the grand scheme of the UK economy I'm surprised the government hasn't sold out the fishing community like they have done the Northern Irish.
Is a no brainer.
I think you're missing the rather important point that fishing is important to the EU. That's why it's a sticking point.
No one really cares about Northern Ireland.
Most Northern Irish people are actually happy with the great deal they are getting (bar the DUP), still effectively in the single market and no hard border with the Irish Republic and technically part of the UK and minimised trade checks with GB, if we go to No Deal ironically the only part of the UK that will grow is probably Northern Ireland, invest in NI therefore now
Which means the Scots will want to do the same. All part of the glorious UK innit?
No. Scotland has no border with a non UK country unlike NI and voted 55% to stay part of the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Scotland will therefore come out of the EU with a basic FTA or on WTO terms like the rest of us
It's got a border all right. It's called the North Channel, and there's another one called the North Sea. Complete with ferry routes.
No land border, Scotland's only land border is with England but we are all part of one glorious Union and we Tories will ensure Scots remain part of our glorious Union for the rest of our time in office and enjoy the fruits of the great new Brexit future we will have in GB under Boris.
No need to thank us!
I don't have strong feelings one way or another re Independence, but I am wondering why you are so fervent about the status quo? How would you have felt about India in 1947 or Canada, Kenya, etc. Were they all wrong and if not why not? If it is just cos it is physically connected why is that important? Again many examples of those splits.
Well obviously physically we are far closer to Scotland than any of them and none of them voted to stay part of the UK as the Scots did in the once in a generation 2014 referendum
Do you think we should have let Malta join the UK as an alternative to independence after they voted for it?
OK fresh from the farm gate (ok my mate who's a grain merchant) re Brexit.
1. Farmers are just carrying on carrying on in the absence of any knowledge of what the govt is going to do. 2. Exporters are using agents for the paperwork so any change in tariffs won't touch them although no one knows the appetite given increased pricing. 3. British Lamb farming will end overnight in the event of tariffs. 4. The end to subsidies might encourage new farmers into the sector given the huge subsidies huge landowners currently get (ie they don't want to sell or let). 5. The main problem with a not wholly unwelcome restructuring of British farming is the timeframes involved. Everything takes 18-24 months before rotations have been completed and new markets created or found.
Out.
That will be a lot of very unhappy Tory voters and, in particular, key political activists in the party in sheep copuntry. Perthshire, Aberdeenshire, Moray, Banff and Buchan, Dumfriesshire, Galloway, the Borders ...
I daresay there will be. But my friend (who voted for Brexit, and also thinks that everything the govt has touched re farming and Brexit has been a huge c*ck up - go figure...) also noted that farmers are a pretty resilient lot; the problem will be that timing. If you have to get rid of your herd in anticipation of a new normal then that takes time which you might not have.
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
Technically the mines that were closed weren't profitable so weren't actually making money and for reasons (unknown but I suspect union related) modernisation wasn't an option.
The Azeris fought very smart - with Turkish backing - in this scuffle. This must be one of the first ever conflicts conclusively decided by drone warfare. Toward the end the Azeris had ran out of targets for their Bayraktar TB-2/MAM systems. Piss poor innings by the Armenian/Russian defenders but we don't really expect anything else these days.
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
For once @HYUFD is spot-on. The myth that Thatcher killed off the mining industry is exactly that, pure myth. If you can find a graph of output, or number of men employed, for the period 1950-2000, you will find a smooth decline where the Thatcher years are no different from the periods before or after. In fact, if anything, there was a slight slowdown in the decline. (There was a BBC website article on this a few years ago - the author was gobsmacked to find his prejudices not confirmed by reality!)
For that matter, find a similar graph for the mines of northern France. Presumably even the most rabidly anti-Thatcher prejudiced people won't try to blame her for the similar decline there.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Given fishing is worth sod all in the grand scheme of the UK economy I'm surprised the government hasn't sold out the fishing community like they have done the Northern Irish.
Is a no brainer.
I think you're missing the rather important point that fishing is important to the EU. That's why it's a sticking point.
No one really cares about Northern Ireland.
Most Northern Irish people are actually happy with the great deal they are getting (bar the DUP), still effectively in the single market and no hard border with the Irish Republic and technically part of the UK and minimised trade checks with GB, if we go to No Deal ironically the only part of the UK that will grow is probably Northern Ireland, invest in NI therefore now
Which means the Scots will want to do the same. All part of the glorious UK innit?
No. Scotland has no border with a non UK country unlike NI and voted 55% to stay part of the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Scotland will therefore come out of the EU with a basic FTA or on WTO terms like the rest of us
It's got a border all right. It's called the North Channel, and there's another one called the North Sea. Complete with ferry routes.
No land border, Scotland's only land border is with England but we are all part of one glorious Union and we Tories will ensure Scots remain part of our glorious Union for the rest of our time in office and enjoy the fruits of the great new Brexit future we will have in GB under Boris.
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
For once @HYUFD is spot-on. The myth that Thatcher killed off the mining industry is exactly that, pure myth. If you can find a graph of output, or number of men employed, for the period 1950-2000, you will find a smooth decline where the Thatcher years are no different from the periods before or after. In fact, if anything, there was a slight slowdown in the decline. (There was a BBC website article on this a few years ago - the author was gobsmacked to find his prejudices not confirmed by reality!)
For that matter, find a similar graph for the mines of northern France. Presumably even the most rabidly anti-Thatcher prejudiced people won't try to blame her for the similar decline there.
He isn't spot-on. He said 'number of mines'. Not the same thing at all, given the structural changes in the industry. Your data are much more to the point.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
OK fresh from the farm gate (ok my mate who's a grain merchant) re Brexit.
1. Farmers are just carrying on carrying on in the absence of any knowledge of what the govt is going to do. 2. Exporters are using agents for the paperwork so any change in tariffs won't touch them although no one knows the appetite given increased pricing. 3. British Lamb farming will end overnight in the event of tariffs. 4. The end to subsidies might encourage new farmers into the sector given the huge subsidies huge landowners currently get (ie they don't want to sell or let). 5. The main problem with a not wholly unwelcome restructuring of British farming is the timeframes involved. Everything takes 18-24 months before rotations have been completed and new markets created or found.
Out.
Point 3 - classic Project Fear. What would a Lamb farmer know about Lamb Farming? They need to talk to experts like Philip who will put them right.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
The "argument of a child" basically sums up the entire Brexit project.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Whinging about 'respect' doesn't save jobs or avoid chaos at the borders. I don't blame them because they have no responsibility for the UK. The EU is a collection sovereign nations who decide their own priorities; it's very odd of Brexiteers to object to sovereign nations exercising their sovereignty. They don't owe us any special favours.
Given fishing is worth sod all in the grand scheme of the UK economy I'm surprised the government hasn't sold out the fishing community like they have done the Northern Irish.
Is a no brainer.
I think you're missing the rather important point that fishing is important to the EU. That's why it's a sticking point.
No one really cares about Northern Ireland.
Most Northern Irish people are actually happy with the great deal they are getting (bar the DUP), still effectively in the single market and no hard border with the Irish Republic and technically part of the UK and minimised trade checks with GB, if we go to No Deal ironically the only part of the UK that will grow is probably Northern Ireland, invest in NI therefore now
Which means the Scots will want to do the same. All part of the glorious UK innit?
No. Scotland has no border with a non UK country unlike NI and voted 55% to stay part of the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Scotland will therefore come out of the EU with a basic FTA or on WTO terms like the rest of us
It's got a border all right. It's called the North Channel, and there's another one called the North Sea. Complete with ferry routes.
No land border, Scotland's only land border is with England but we are all part of one glorious Union and we Tories will ensure Scots remain part of our glorious Union for the rest of our time in office and enjoy the fruits of the great new Brexit future we will have in GB under Boris.
No need to thank us!
I don't have strong feelings one way or another re Independence, but I am wondering why you are so fervent about the status quo? How would you have felt about India in 1947 or Canada, Kenya, etc. Were they all wrong and if not why not? If it is just cos it is physically connected why is that important? Again many examples of those splits.
Well obviously physically we are far closer to Scotland than any of them and none of them voted to stay part of the UK as the Scots did in the once in a generation 2014 referendum
If you're confident that Scottish opinion on the Union hasn't changed since 2014 because of, eg, being forced out of the EU against their will (62% for the EU vs 55% for the UK) then why not put it to the test with another vote? You won't, because you're frit.
Hmm, Mr Raab saying on the telly that he doesn't recognise the figure of 5% food price increase as forecastg by the Tescos boss [edit] if there is a no deal.
"Of all the things that will be a challenge, I am not concerned about either supermarket cupboards running bare or the cost of food prices."
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
You're right we ought to be able to get a better one, not a worse one. But that's fine we can take the same.
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
Hmm, Mr Raab saying on the telly that he doesn't recognise the figure of 5% food price increase as forecastg by the Tescos boss [edit] if there is a no deal.
"Of all the things that will be a challenge, I am not concerned about either supermarket cupboards running bare or the cost of food prices."
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
Technically the mines that were closed weren't profitable so weren't actually making money and for reasons (unknown but I suspect union related) modernisation wasn't an option.
There were plenty of profitable pits shut after the miners strike. But obviously it was a better strategic option to close the pit that makes money 5 miles from the power station and instead buy coal mined from a Brazilian rainforest, boated halfway round the globe then dragged halfway across the UK to the power station.
The Azeris fought very smart - with Turkish backing - in this scuffle. This must be one of the first ever conflicts conclusively decided by drone warfare. Toward the end the Azeris had ran out of targets for their Bayraktar TB-2/MAM systems. Piss poor innings by the Armenian/Russian defenders but we don't really expect anything else these days.
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
Technically the mines that were closed weren't profitable so weren't actually making money and for reasons (unknown but I suspect union related) modernisation wasn't an option.
Anyone involved in resource extraction will tell you that you almost never extract everything. Often 50%, or more of what is in the ground is uneconomic to extract.
The problem with UK mining was that it was largely deep mining of seams, that by modern standards were tiny. A coal seam 1-2m high wasn't uncommon.
Competing with open cast mines with seams many times thicker...
There was a documentary, many years ago. A former UK miner went round the world to look at the mines they had been competing with.
At a Canadian mine (IIRC) they showed how a dump truck larger than a house would come up, and an equally huge digger would shovel coal into it and then the next one pulled up.
The ex-miner noted that that there was more coal in one of the dump trucks, than a shift managed to produce in his old mine.
The Azeris fought very smart - with Turkish backing - in this scuffle. This must be one of the first ever conflicts conclusively decided by drone warfare. Toward the end the Azeris had ran out of targets for their Bayraktar TB-2/MAM systems. Piss poor innings by the Armenian/Russian defenders but we don't really expect anything else these days.
Aside from selling a bit of kit did Putin really get too involved in this one ? The drones are now being paraded
If Raab or anyone else senior openly says there's a real chance of food shortages it'd create panic-buying regardless of whether or not shortages were to happen or were even possible.
Of course he's not going to say "Stock up, or you might starve"...
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Whinging about 'respect' doesn't save jobs or avoid chaos at the borders. I don't blame them because they have no responsibility for the UK. The EU is a collection sovereign nations who decide their own priorities; it's very odd of Brexiteers to object to sovereign nations exercising their sovereignty. They don't owe us any special favours.
Don't want a special favour, just to be treated the same as other countries. Until then we can put up tariffs against their bloc - they have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour and a massive trade surplus with us so perhaps we need protectionism more than they do? Ever thought of that?
We can seek trade deals with the rest of the world in the mean time and when the EU are ready to be rational we can wait them out. Like the miners in the 80s.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
Denying the right to fish in waters without an agreement is what every sovereign country does.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
Of course not, and they won't. They will however point out that no deal means no deal, and by definition that means every existing agreement which is a legacy of our EU membership lapses. The whole relationship will have to be renegotiated, i.e. the UK will have to come to its senses. In the meantime, they are putting in place some minimal temporary measures to mitigate the worst of that disruption from their point of view (not ours) for a short time, but there's no guarantee that (for example) UK planes will have the same access rights in the future as they do now.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
You're right we ought to be able to get a better one, not a worse one. But that's fine we can take the same.
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
That you can't see the hypocrisy is damning.
Where do you get the idea from that the minimum wage is an EU competence? A quick Google shows that each Member State sets its own minimum wage, ranging from €1.95 per hour in Bulgaria to €12.36 per hour in Luxembourg.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
I don’t like the idea of no deal brexit. It frightens me. 😱
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Whinging about 'respect' doesn't save jobs or avoid chaos at the borders. I don't blame them because they have no responsibility for the UK. The EU is a collection sovereign nations who decide their own priorities; it's very odd of Brexiteers to object to sovereign nations exercising their sovereignty. They don't owe us any special favours.
Not only do they not have responsibility for the UK, they did not actively choose to replace the status quo with something unknown and new. Very un-conservative.
Hmm, Mr Raab saying on the telly that he doesn't recognise the figure of 5% food price increase as forecastg by the Tescos boss [edit] if there is a no deal.
"Of all the things that will be a challenge, I am not concerned about either supermarket cupboards running bare or the cost of food prices."
Indeed. 5% is an average. It will be many multiples of 5% on product types and sectors massacred by (a) logistics, (b) tariffs or both.
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
Technically the mines that were closed weren't profitable so weren't actually making money and for reasons (unknown but I suspect union related) modernisation wasn't an option.
Anyone involved in resource extraction will tell you that you almost never extract everything. Often 50%, or more of what is in the ground is uneconomic to extract.
The problem with UK mining was that it was largely deep mining of seams, that by modern standards were tiny. A coal seam 1-2m high wasn't uncommon.
Competing with open cast mines with seams many times thicker...
There was a documentary, many years ago. A former UK miner went round the world to look at the mines they had been competing with.
At a Canadian mine (IIRC) they showed how a dump truck larger than a house would come up, and an equally huge digger would shovel coal into it and then the next one pulled up.
The ex-miner noted that that there was more coal in one of the dump trucks, than a shift managed to produce in his old mine.
In Canada the mines are seriously impressive. I was at one a few years ago and saw a train take off from the mine - I lost track of how many coal carriages the train had but it literally took minutes for them all to go past, seemed like it would never end at one point.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Whinging about 'respect' doesn't save jobs or avoid chaos at the borders. I don't blame them because they have no responsibility for the UK. The EU is a collection sovereign nations who decide their own priorities; it's very odd of Brexiteers to object to sovereign nations exercising their sovereignty. They don't owe us any special favours.
Don't want a special favour, just to be treated the same as other countries. Until then we can put up tariffs against their bloc - they have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour and a massive trade surplus with us so perhaps we need protectionism more than they do? Ever thought of that?
We can seek trade deals with the rest of the world in the mean time and when the EU are ready to be rational we can wait them out. Like the miners in the 80s.
The way you write it, 'we' is the subject in the second main clause in your first sentence. And therefore 'like the miners' applies to that pronoun. Not perhaps what you meant?
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
You're right we ought to be able to get a better one, not a worse one. But that's fine we can take the same.
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
That you can't see the hypocrisy is damning.
Where do you get the idea from that the minimum wage is an EU competence? A quick Google shows that each Member State sets its own minimum wage, ranging from €1.95 per hour in Bulgaria to €12.36 per hour in Luxembourg.
So as I said the minimum in the EU is €1.95
And they're supposed to be worried about us undercutting them? Are you seriously trying to take the piss? That is ridiculous.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
Denying the right to fish in waters without an agreement is what every sovereign country does.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
Of course not, and they won't. They will however point out that no deal means no deal, and by definition that means every existing agreement which is a legacy of our EU membership lapses. The whole relationship will have to be renegotiated, i.e. the UK will have to come to its senses. In the meantime, they are putting in place some minimal temporary measures to mitigate the worst of that disruption from their point of view (not ours) for a short time, but there's no guarantee that (for example) UK planes will have the same access rights in the future as they do now.
Time for Boris to swallow his pride. Starmer's even letting him have the numbers to get passed his own frothers on the backbenches this time.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
I don’t like the idea of no deal brexit. It frightens me. 😱
This isn’t outcome promised in 2016 or 2019.
If we wanted a no deal Brexit in 2016 by now we could have left and implemented far far better than it would be done with 3 weeks notice.
If we wanted a Brexit deal in 2016 by now we could have left and had a far far better deal than the one that is left available.
Whatever happens it is a remarkable and shameful negotiating performance by the UK and its leaders.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Whinging about 'respect' doesn't save jobs or avoid chaos at the borders. I don't blame them because they have no responsibility for the UK. The EU is a collection sovereign nations who decide their own priorities; it's very odd of Brexiteers to object to sovereign nations exercising their sovereignty. They don't owe us any special favours.
Don't want a special favour, just to be treated the same as other countries. Until then we can put up tariffs against their bloc - they have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour and a massive trade surplus with us so perhaps we need protectionism more than they do? Ever thought of that?
We can seek trade deals with the rest of the world in the mean time and when the EU are ready to be rational we can wait them out. Like the miners in the 80s.
The way you write it, 'we' is the subject in the second main clause in your first sentence. And therefore 'like the miners' applies to that pronoun. Not perhaps what you meant?
I meant miners can be waited out like "them" from the prior sentence. We can wait them out, like we waited the miners out.
Hmm, Mr Raab saying on the telly that he doesn't recognise the figure of 5% food price increase as forecastg by the Tescos boss [edit] if there is a no deal.
"Of all the things that will be a challenge, I am not concerned about either supermarket cupboards running bare or the cost of food prices."
We've been warned: Tescos will now increase prices by 5%, regardless of whether it is warranted.....
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Whinging about 'respect' doesn't save jobs or avoid chaos at the borders. I don't blame them because they have no responsibility for the UK. The EU is a collection sovereign nations who decide their own priorities; it's very odd of Brexiteers to object to sovereign nations exercising their sovereignty. They don't owe us any special favours.
Don't want a special favour, just to be treated the same as other countries. Until then we can put up tariffs against their bloc - they have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour and a massive trade surplus with us so perhaps we need protectionism more than they do? Ever thought of that?
We can seek trade deals with the rest of the world in the mean time and when the EU are ready to be rational we can wait them out. Like the miners in the 80s.
The way you write it, 'we' is the subject in the second main clause in your first sentence. And therefore 'like the miners' applies to that pronoun. Not perhaps what you meant?
I meant miners can be waited out like "them" from the prior sentence. We can wait them out, like we waited the miners out.
Have you any idea how much effort Thatcher's government put into preparing to survive a long strike by the miners? And how little effort Johnson has put into preparing for 2021?
If we don't get a deal, and not having a deal is bad, then the responsibility for that is all Johnson's and the other Brexit cheerleaders.
They said a deal would be easy. They said life would be great without a deal.
Attempts to blame the EU are as risible as they are predictable.
What if life is great without a deal? What then?
You guys never seem to acknowledge that is a possibility.
You never seem to acknowledge the possibility that all your ramping for the past 4 years about how no deal is going to be brilliant might be complete bollocks.
🤷♂️
I've always acknowledged that no deal might not be a complete disaster.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
Denying the right to fish in waters without an agreement is what every sovereign country does.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
Of course not, and they won't. They will however point out that no deal means no deal, and by definition that means every existing agreement which is a legacy of our EU membership lapses. The whole relationship will have to be renegotiated, i.e. the UK will have to come to its senses. In the meantime, they are putting in place some minimal temporary measures to mitigate the worst of that disruption from their point of view (not ours) for a short time, but there's no guarantee that (for example) UK planes will have the same access rights in the future as they do now.
So time to get on with negotiations but planes flying all civilised countries have between each other, the idea they'd stop planes from flying is madness. It would be a virtually an act of war and I'm glad you said they won't do it.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
You're right we ought to be able to get a better one, not a worse one. But that's fine we can take the same.
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
That you can't see the hypocrisy is damning.
Where do you get the idea from that the minimum wage is an EU competence? A quick Google shows that each Member State sets its own minimum wage, ranging from €1.95 per hour in Bulgaria to €12.36 per hour in Luxembourg.
So as I said the minimum in the EU is €1.95
And they're supposed to be worried about us undercutting them? Are you seriously trying to take the piss? That is ridiculous.
You said "a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour". Does the bloc have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? No, it doesn't. One of its Member States does - Bulgaria.
Anyway, the whole idea that the Bulgaria's minimum wage is of any importance at all is itself absurd. God only knows why you're making such a big deal of it.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
Denying the right to fish in waters without an agreement is what every sovereign country does.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
Of course not, and they won't. They will however point out that no deal means no deal, and by definition that means every existing agreement which is a legacy of our EU membership lapses. The whole relationship will have to be renegotiated, i.e. the UK will have to come to its senses. In the meantime, they are putting in place some minimal temporary measures to mitigate the worst of that disruption from their point of view (not ours) for a short time, but there's no guarantee that (for example) UK planes will have the same access rights in the future as they do now.
Time for Boris to swallow his pride. Starmer's even letting him have the numbers to get passed his own frothers on the backbenches this time.
That's the problem. Boris can't swallow his pride. The only people who can swallow it for him are Gove and Sunak, and I'm not sure that they can.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
You're right we ought to be able to get a better one, not a worse one. But that's fine we can take the same.
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
That you can't see the hypocrisy is damning.
Where do you get the idea from that the minimum wage is an EU competence? A quick Google shows that each Member State sets its own minimum wage, ranging from €1.95 per hour in Bulgaria to €12.36 per hour in Luxembourg.
So as I said the minimum in the EU is €1.95
And they're supposed to be worried about us undercutting them? Are you seriously trying to take the piss? That is ridiculous.
You said "a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour". Does the bloc have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? No, it doesn't. One of its Member States does - Bulgaria.
Anyway, the whole idea that the Bulgaria's minimum wage is of any importance at all is itself absurd. God only knows why you're making such a big deal of it.
Yes as a bloc their minimum wage is €1.95 - minimum by definition means the minimum anywhere in the bloc not all of it.
The reason it is of importance is because quite self-evidently it is acceptable in a market for different countries to have different labour laws or standards. Which is why the UK should not sign the mad LPF provisions the EU want us to sign - they don't even have the same LPF as we do today.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Whinging about 'respect' doesn't save jobs or avoid chaos at the borders. I don't blame them because they have no responsibility for the UK. The EU is a collection sovereign nations who decide their own priorities; it's very odd of Brexiteers to object to sovereign nations exercising their sovereignty. They don't owe us any special favours.
Don't want a special favour, just to be treated the same as other countries. Until then we can put up tariffs against their bloc - they have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour and a massive trade surplus with us so perhaps we need protectionism more than they do? Ever thought of that?
We can seek trade deals with the rest of the world in the mean time and when the EU are ready to be rational we can wait them out. Like the miners in the 80s.
I love the way you still don't understand that we export to one single market, but 27 individual EU member states import into the UK.
OK fresh from the farm gate (ok my mate who's a grain merchant) re Brexit.
1. Farmers are just carrying on carrying on in the absence of any knowledge of what the govt is going to do. 2. Exporters are using agents for the paperwork so any change in tariffs won't touch them although no one knows the appetite given increased pricing. 3. British Lamb farming will end overnight in the event of tariffs. 4. The end to subsidies might encourage new farmers into the sector given the huge subsidies huge landowners currently get (ie they don't want to sell or let). 5. The main problem with a not wholly unwelcome restructuring of British farming is the timeframes involved. Everything takes 18-24 months before rotations have been completed and new markets created or found.
Out.
Point 3 - classic Project Fear. What would a Lamb farmer know about Lamb Farming? They need to talk to experts like Philip who will put them right.
Paying attention, I see . Line 1 says he's a grain merchant.
If we don't get a deal, and not having a deal is bad, then the responsibility for that is all Johnson's and the other Brexit cheerleaders.
They said a deal would be easy. They said life would be great without a deal.
Attempts to blame the EU are as risible as they are predictable.
What if life is great without a deal? What then?
You guys never seem to acknowledge that is a possibility.
You never seem to acknowledge the possibility that all your ramping for the past 4 years about how no deal is going to be brilliant might be complete bollocks.
🤷♂️
I've always acknowledged that no deal might not be a complete disaster.
It is looking very grim for a deal now. If we truly get to a no deal because there is no way - and never has been a way - of finding a compromise acceptable to both sides, it's an extraordinary failure of diplomacy that this has not been realised until the final hour. Both sides have expected the other to move and thought the other was bluffing. There has never been any evidence that the EU were bluffing. It seems that neither were bluffing.
If “no deal" was the inevitable outcome of each sides red lines then realising this at a much earlier stage and properly preparing for it was the solemn duty of this government. We are witnessing the final act of a tragedy. A catastrophe of political judgment, and failed diplomacy that history will rightly condemn.
The government could never admit that the other side (the EU) might be serious about their red lines. Their rhetoric was always that the EU were bluffing, and that they would back down when they realised that the UK was serious. It turns out that the EU was serious too. As a result, the government has done very little to prepare for no deal, as will be revealed in January 2021. The government was unable to separate reality from its own wishful thinking. This was because facing reality would have meant admitting to its own supporters that it made promises in the referendum and since then that are undeliverable.
Incidentally it's worth noting that the EU's proposed temporary mitigation measures are pretty minimal, and in particular do not include any dérogations on customs procedures and food standards. This is going to be major chaos for the UK, if Boris doesn't find a rabbit he can pull out of a hat PDQ.
Ironically, but unsurprisingly, the proposed regulations also require the UK to maintain the fabled 'level playing field' in the areas covered (for example road haulage):
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
Denying the right to fish in waters without an agreement is what every sovereign country does.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
Of course not, and they won't. They will however point out that no deal means no deal, and by definition that means every existing agreement which is a legacy of our EU membership lapses. The whole relationship will have to be renegotiated, i.e. the UK will have to come to its senses. In the meantime, they are putting in place some minimal temporary measures to mitigate the worst of that disruption from their point of view (not ours) for a short time, but there's no guarantee that (for example) UK planes will have the same access rights in the future as they do now.
So time to get on with negotiations but planes flying all civilised countries have between each other, the idea they'd stop planes from flying is madness. It would be a virtually an act of war and I'm glad you said they won't do it.
They are not going to stop all planes flying, Phil. That does not mean they do not have the power and the incentive to entirely reconsider the rights of UK carriers and airports post-transition period.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
Denying the right to fish in waters without an agreement is what every sovereign country does.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
Of course not, and they won't. They will however point out that no deal means no deal, and by definition that means every existing agreement which is a legacy of our EU membership lapses. The whole relationship will have to be renegotiated, i.e. the UK will have to come to its senses. In the meantime, they are putting in place some minimal temporary measures to mitigate the worst of that disruption from their point of view (not ours) for a short time, but there's no guarantee that (for example) UK planes will have the same access rights in the future as they do now.
So time to get on with negotiations but planes flying all civilised countries have between each other, the idea they'd stop planes from flying is madness. It would be a virtually an act of war and I'm glad you said they won't do it.
It is entirely legit to want planes using your airports to be safe and well maintained and wiith the bumf up to date. ., t's not so much the overflight issue AIUI but having the right bumf such as safety and maintenance certification. On 1.1.21 all that goes poot in one puff unless something is agreed.
I'm wondering if this is wht the London regime have been making so much of using military aircraft, which presumably operate under different rules for the bumf.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
I don’t like the idea of no deal brexit. It frightens me. 😱
This isn’t outcome promised in 2016 or 2019.
If we wanted a no deal Brexit in 2016 by now we could have left and implemented far far better than it would be done with 3 weeks notice.
If we wanted a Brexit deal in 2016 by now we could have left and had a far far better deal than the one that is left available.
Whatever happens it is a remarkable and shameful negotiating performance by the UK and its leaders.
Wowsers. You actually believe there is no difference between a worked out mine shutting and being replaced and mines with huge coal stocks that make money being shut and replaced by Brazilian imports.
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
For once @HYUFD is spot-on. The myth that Thatcher killed off the mining industry is exactly that, pure myth. If you can find a graph of output, or number of men employed, for the period 1950-2000, you will find a smooth decline where the Thatcher years are no different from the periods before or after. In fact, if anything, there was a slight slowdown in the decline. (There was a BBC website article on this a few years ago - the author was gobsmacked to find his prejudices not confirmed by reality!)
For that matter, find a similar graph for the mines of northern France. Presumably even the most rabidly anti-Thatcher prejudiced people won't try to blame her for the similar decline there.
Thatcher killed off the communities in the coal mining areas, which is much worse than shutting the mines. Many of those communitie are still suffering the consequences 35 years later. It was clear that many of the coal mines would have to be closed down, but they did not all have to be closed in such a short period. But the real scandal was not to manage the change of focus in those single industry communities, but rather just throw people on the unemployment heap, with no chance of retraining or even moving to areas which by the mid 80's were moving out of a multi year recession.
You're right that other countries have closed down much of their mining industry, but most other countires have managed the process hands on and gradually over 20 years or more.
Hmm, Mr Raab saying on the telly that he doesn't recognise the figure of 5% food price increase as forecastg by the Tescos boss [edit] if there is a no deal.
"Of all the things that will be a challenge, I am not concerned about either supermarket cupboards running bare or the cost of food prices."
We've been warned: Tescos will now increase prices by 5%, regardless of whether it is warranted.....
Don't be silly. Everyone will be raising prices and by more than 5%! Firstly Tesco's chair was quoting an average - many products and sectors will have logistics / tariffs oncosts far larger than 5%. But for everything, even stuff that is 100% UK and not directly impacted by Brexit? Will still be impacted as the cost of "stuff" will go up due to the disruption. And very few things are 100% British and not affected - something will have a stake in Brexit even if it is just packaging or pallets.
Most of these supermarkets are in a pretty perilous financial state. They went into 2020 with a few years of flatlined demand and the only growth coming from inflation. Yet they have had to wage war against Aldi and Lidl as well as each other so there have been various rounds of competitive price cuts. So many products in so many sectors which dilute their overall profit margin below where it needs to be to deliver a net profit.
And then we have 2020. A massive year of costs - of emergency supply contingencies, of hiring additional staff to move stock and marshall shoppers, and a huge growth in online deliveries which loses them money with every delivery. So of course they will use Brexit to both recoup all of the oncosts of Brexit but also the costs incurred by Covid. Its safe to increase consumer prices when everyone is following suit. As they all will be. Every commercial contact that I have in every manufacturer in every sector has a price rise planned for early 2021 knowing that its effectively a free hit.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
You're right we ought to be able to get a better one, not a worse one. But that's fine we can take the same.
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
That you can't see the hypocrisy is damning.
Where do you get the idea from that the minimum wage is an EU competence? A quick Google shows that each Member State sets its own minimum wage, ranging from €1.95 per hour in Bulgaria to €12.36 per hour in Luxembourg.
So as I said the minimum in the EU is €1.95
And they're supposed to be worried about us undercutting them? Are you seriously trying to take the piss? That is ridiculous.
You said "a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour". Does the bloc have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? No, it doesn't. One of its Member States does - Bulgaria.
Anyway, the whole idea that the Bulgaria's minimum wage is of any importance at all is itself absurd. God only knows why you're making such a big deal of it.
Yes as a bloc their minimum wage is €1.95 - minimum by definition means the minimum anywhere in the bloc not all of it.
The reason it is of importance is because quite self-evidently it is acceptable in a market for different countries to have different labour laws or standards. Which is why the UK should not sign the mad LPF provisions the EU want us to sign - they don't even have the same LPF as we do today.
You are being quite ridiculous. The LPF doesn't imply that every single law needs to be identical between the participants, just that a certain subset of them are. The minimum wage is not part of this subset. It is not part of the LPF, and I've no idea why you seem to think it should be.
Given Phil's extraordinary expertise in all aspects of trade policy and negotiation, I am surprised he has time to post on here when he must be working flat out at the top end of the market for huge consultancy fees - especially now.
The Azeris fought very smart - with Turkish backing - in this scuffle. This must be one of the first ever conflicts conclusively decided by drone warfare. Toward the end the Azeris had ran out of targets for their Bayraktar TB-2/MAM systems. Piss poor innings by the Armenian/Russian defenders but we don't really expect anything else these days.
Aside from selling a bit of kit did Putin really get too involved in this one ? The drones are now being paraded
The Russian have had a military base at Gymurz in Armenia since the USSR fell apart. Although they've only had transit rights through Georgia to it since 2005. They are also bound by the CSTO treaty to guarantee the security of Armenia so they have plenty of 'advisors' and the usual PMCs in the Armenian forces.
The Russians are bigger reputational losers than Armenia in this. They couldn't back up a close ally in their own backyard and, as usual, their gear turned out to be gash.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
Denying the right to fish in waters without an agreement is what every sovereign country does.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
Of course not, and they won't. They will however point out that no deal means no deal, and by definition that means every existing agreement which is a legacy of our EU membership lapses. The whole relationship will have to be renegotiated, i.e. the UK will have to come to its senses. In the meantime, they are putting in place some minimal temporary measures to mitigate the worst of that disruption from their point of view (not ours) for a short time, but there's no guarantee that (for example) UK planes will have the same access rights in the future as they do now.
So time to get on with negotiations but planes flying all civilised countries have between each other, the idea they'd stop planes from flying is madness. It would be a virtually an act of war and I'm glad you said they won't do it.
They are not going to stop all planes flying, Phil. That does not mean they do not have the power and the incentive to entirely reconsider the rights of UK carriers and airports post-transition period.
I don't get how some people don't understand these rather basic principles. Aircraft could fly. Without regulation or insurance. Its not going to be the EU stopping them, it'll be the people who own the aircraft they lease.
We could agree with the EU that we are going to continue the status quo. But we are choosing to tear up the agreement and haven't managed to put a new agreement in place.
Should say not a chance on fisheries. Certainly not for fisheries to be for longer than other ones that is crazy.
Depends whether the UK wants to be able to fly those vaccines in, doesn't it?
They are independent proposals, aren't they?
Unclear, but if things get very acrimonious, they will get acrimonious. Boris is taking us into the very worst of all possible worst worlds.
Funny how you blame Boris but not von der Leyen or Macron etc
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
What other nations get isn't relevant. That's the argument of a child. England was never going to get the same deal as other countries due to its size, proximity and already high degree of economic integration.
You're right we ought to be able to get a better one, not a worse one. But that's fine we can take the same.
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
That you can't see the hypocrisy is damning.
Where do you get the idea from that the minimum wage is an EU competence? A quick Google shows that each Member State sets its own minimum wage, ranging from €1.95 per hour in Bulgaria to €12.36 per hour in Luxembourg.
So as I said the minimum in the EU is €1.95
And they're supposed to be worried about us undercutting them? Are you seriously trying to take the piss? That is ridiculous.
You said "a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour". Does the bloc have a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? No, it doesn't. One of its Member States does - Bulgaria.
Anyway, the whole idea that the Bulgaria's minimum wage is of any importance at all is itself absurd. God only knows why you're making such a big deal of it.
Yes as a bloc their minimum wage is €1.95 - minimum by definition means the minimum anywhere in the bloc not all of it.
The reason it is of importance is because quite self-evidently it is acceptable in a market for different countries to have different labour laws or standards. Which is why the UK should not sign the mad LPF provisions the EU want us to sign - they don't even have the same LPF as we do today.
You are being quite ridiculous. The LPF doesn't imply that every single law needs to be identical between the participants, just that a certain subset of them are. The minimum wage is not part of this subset. It is not part of the LPF, and I've no idea why you seem to think it should be.
Why shouldn't it?
Why should any be but not that one? Other than that is what the EU wants, can you give a logical explanation why tax rates should be more a part of an LPF than a minimum wage?
If we don't get a deal, and not having a deal is bad, then the responsibility for that is all Johnson's and the other Brexit cheerleaders.
They said a deal would be easy. They said life would be great without a deal.
Attempts to blame the EU are as risible as they are predictable.
What if life is great without a deal? What then?
You guys never seem to acknowledge that is a possibility.
The conditional "if" at the beginning of my comment applied to the second clause of that sentence as well as the first.
If my grammar is at fault, then I apologise.
I rather suspect that if no deal comes to pass, and if it is bad for people, that many Brexit cheerleaders will deny the negative consequences, blame the individuals that suffer those consequences, and blame the EU too.
Bad things, after all, happen every day. Easy to pretend someone else is to blame if you want to.
So time to get on with negotiations but planes flying all civilised countries have between each other, the idea they'd stop planes from flying is madness. It would be a virtually an act of war and I'm glad you said they won't do it.
How many planes? This stuff is all about quotas and reciprocal landing rights.
In other words, it needs to be negotiated. And the EU (largely because of the tiresome experience they've had with Switzerland) doesn't want to negotiate a whole load of separate deals, they want an over-arching agreement which is stable and doesn't keep wasting their time with further haggling each year. Whether that is reasonable or not is irrelevant: since they are sovereign nations they can set whatever parameters they like for privileged access to their markets.
It really is incredibly simple: if Boris doesn't want to accept the deal on offer, then he doesn't have to accept it. Of course he will then be responsible for the effect on the UK.
So time to get on with negotiations but planes flying all civilised countries have between each other, the idea they'd stop planes from flying is madness. It would be a virtually an act of war and I'm glad you said they won't do it.
How many planes? This stuff is all about quotas and reciprocal landing rights.
In other words, it needs to be negotiated. And the EU (largely because of the tiresome experience they've had with Switzerland) doesn't want to negotiate a whole load of separate deals, they want an over-arching agreement which is stable and doesn't keep wasting their time with further haggling each year. Whether that is reasonable or not is irrelevant: since they are sovereign nations they can set whatever parameters they like for privileged access to their markets.
It really is incredibly simple: if Boris doesn't want to accept the deal on offer, then he doesn't have to accept it. Of course he will then be responsible for the effect on the UK.
Fine. So don't accept it and move on.
Whether the EU wants to negotiate a whole load of separate deals or not is immaterial. Unless they want to go to an economic war with us they will need to do so.
Comments
That's quite some mental gymnastics.
1. Farmers are just carrying on carrying on in the absence of any knowledge of what the govt is going to do.
2. Exporters are using agents for the paperwork so any change in tariffs won't touch them although no one knows the appetite given increased pricing.
3. British Lamb farming will end overnight in the event of tariffs.
4. The end to subsidies might encourage new farmers into the sector given the huge subsidies huge landowners currently get (ie they don't want to sell or let).
5. The main problem with a not wholly unwelcome restructuring of British farming is the timeframes involved. Everything takes 18-24 months before rotations have been completed and new markets created or found.
Out.
a border down the irish Sea but not allow the Scots similar EU membership status?
@Carnyx is walking to Europe in a diving suit. Land border.
Oh, wait
https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1336978928959971330
You Waffen-Tories really do like a scorched earth don't you?
Edit: and also in council housing schemes to move the miners to the new pits.
HYUFD's "many" is a weasel word.
@HYUFD has no problem asserting that if Scotland voted to become independent then rUK would have no obligation to be "fair" or "amicable" towards Scotland when negotiating future arrangements.
And yet Brexiteers expect the same from the EU?
I personally think we should treat Scotland nicely in such a scenario, and that the EU should be treating us nicely in this scenario.
However, one can hardly blame the EU after the nonsense the majority of the people in the current government have been spouting for years and years and years.
For that matter, find a similar graph for the mines of northern France. Presumably even the most rabidly anti-Thatcher prejudiced people won't try to blame her for the similar decline there.
Boris's requests are entirely reasonable, he's requested no more respect than other nations get. If the EU wish to be unreasonable then it isn't unreasonable for Boris to stand up to them.
Glorious.
Denying the righe to fly vaccines would be pretty unprecedented and tantamount to an act of war.
Is that seriously the path you or the EU want to go down?
"Of all the things that will be a challenge, I am not concerned about either supermarket cupboards running bare or the cost of food prices."
Otherwise if you're saying its important not to be undercut by your neighbours why do you want a trade deal with a bloc with a minimum wage of €1.95 per hour? Presumably we should by that logic want protectionism against the EU until they meet our standards while seeking out preferential trade deals with further abroad instead.
That you can't see the hypocrisy is damning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mymTX-psg5c
The problem with UK mining was that it was largely deep mining of seams, that by modern standards were tiny. A coal seam 1-2m high wasn't uncommon.
Competing with open cast mines with seams many times thicker...
There was a documentary, many years ago. A former UK miner went round the world to look at the mines they had been competing with.
At a Canadian mine (IIRC) they showed how a dump truck larger than a house would come up, and an equally huge digger would shovel coal into it and then the next one pulled up.
The ex-miner noted that that there was more coal in one of the dump trucks, than a shift managed to produce in his old mine.
The drones are now being paraded
Of course he's not going to say "Stock up, or you might starve"...
We can seek trade deals with the rest of the world in the mean time and when the EU are ready to be rational we can wait them out. Like the miners in the 80s.
This isn’t outcome promised in 2016 or 2019.
And they're supposed to be worried about us undercutting them? Are you seriously trying to take the piss? That is ridiculous.
If we wanted a Brexit deal in 2016 by now we could have left and had a far far better deal than the one that is left available.
Whatever happens it is a remarkable and shameful negotiating performance by the UK and its leaders.
They said a deal would be easy. They said life would be great without a deal.
Attempts to blame the EU are as risible as they are predictable.
You guys never seem to acknowledge that is a possibility.
🤷♂️
I've always acknowledged that no deal might not be a complete disaster.
Anyway, the whole idea that the Bulgaria's minimum wage is of any importance at all is itself absurd. God only knows why you're making such a big deal of it.
The reason it is of importance is because quite self-evidently it is acceptable in a market for different countries to have different labour laws or standards. Which is why the UK should not sign the mad LPF provisions the EU want us to sign - they don't even have the same LPF as we do today.
Ironically, but unsurprisingly, the proposed regulations also require the UK to maintain the fabled 'level playing field' in the areas covered (for example road haulage):
https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1336986405055180801
I'm wondering if this is wht the London regime have been making so much of using military aircraft, which presumably operate under different rules for the bumf.
You're right that other countries have closed down much of their mining industry, but most other countires have managed the process hands on and gradually over 20 years or more.
Most of these supermarkets are in a pretty perilous financial state. They went into 2020 with a few years of flatlined demand and the only growth coming from inflation. Yet they have had to wage war against Aldi and Lidl as well as each other so there have been various rounds of competitive price cuts. So many products in so many sectors which dilute their overall profit margin below where it needs to be to deliver a net profit.
And then we have 2020. A massive year of costs - of emergency supply contingencies, of hiring additional staff to move stock and marshall shoppers, and a huge growth in online deliveries which loses them money with every delivery. So of course they will use Brexit to both recoup all of the oncosts of Brexit but also the costs incurred by Covid. Its safe to increase consumer prices when everyone is following suit. As they all will be. Every commercial contact that I have in every manufacturer in every sector has a price rise planned for early 2021 knowing that its effectively a free hit.
The Russians are bigger reputational losers than Armenia in this. They couldn't back up a close ally in their own backyard and, as usual, their gear turned out to be gash.
We could agree with the EU that we are going to continue the status quo. But we are choosing to tear up the agreement and haven't managed to put a new agreement in place.
Why should any be but not that one? Other than that is what the EU wants, can you give a logical explanation why tax rates should be more a part of an LPF than a minimum wage?
If my grammar is at fault, then I apologise.
I rather suspect that if no deal comes to pass, and if it is bad for people, that many Brexit cheerleaders will deny the negative consequences, blame the individuals that suffer those consequences, and blame the EU too.
Bad things, after all, happen every day. Easy to pretend someone else is to blame if you want to.
In other words, it needs to be negotiated. And the EU (largely because of the tiresome experience they've had with Switzerland) doesn't want to negotiate a whole load of separate deals, they want an over-arching agreement which is stable and doesn't keep wasting their time with further haggling each year. Whether that is reasonable or not is irrelevant: since they are sovereign nations they can set whatever parameters they like for privileged access to their markets.
It really is incredibly simple: if Boris doesn't want to accept the deal on offer, then he doesn't have to accept it. Of course he will then be responsible for the effect on the UK.
https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1336988594536402945
Whether the EU wants to negotiate a whole load of separate deals or not is immaterial. Unless they want to go to an economic war with us they will need to do so.