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Two warnings for Johnson in today’s YouGov poll – politicalbetting.com

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  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:
    There’s only 61 of them, when are they going to find the time to attend Holyrood?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True

    Although it's probably inaccurate and out of date as https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-us-logs-3157-more-coronavirus-deaths-a-record-for-a-single-day-12150371 says there was 3157 on 1 day
    It’s fake in that even on those days Covid was a small percentage of all American deaths on those days. I also seriously doubt that there were not several more bloody days in the Civil War. But it does rather vividly put the current carnage into perspective.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:
    At this rate the Tories will be wanting an indy referendum on Boxing Day. It's already SNP policy to have free meals if reelected in May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/28/snp-conference-free-breakfast-lunch-primary-john-swinney
    Holding back the meals until they've been re-elected? Shocking. :smiley:
    It worked for the SPFL.....
  • Scott_xP said:
    And they will do it all again at Christmas.....
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
  • Scott_xP said:
    And they will do it all again at Christmas.....
    From a higher baseline.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,136
    edited December 2020
    Boris entering Brussels tonight with a motorcade that would not shame a US President

    https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1336758776553238528?s=20
  • Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
    Approximately a million died over four years. That averages at just under 700 per day on average but I would have thought some days would be much bloodier and some days less. Only a single day of Antietam being on the list just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True

    Although it's probably inaccurate and out of date as https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-us-logs-3157-more-coronavirus-deaths-a-record-for-a-single-day-12150371 says there was 3157 on 1 day
    It’s fake in that even on those days Covid was a small percentage of all American deaths on those days. I also seriously doubt that there were not several more bloody days in the Civil War. But it does rather vividly put the current carnage into perspective.
    But the same applies to the rest (lots of Americans died of other things on 9/11, Pearl Harbor day etc.) Antietam is widely regarded as the bloodiest battle of the Civil War. The English equivalent is Towton, where estimates vary enormously from contemporary claims of 20-30,000 dead to modern estimates of 3,000 odd. 20,000 Allied troops died on the first day of the Somme.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,804

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    The Covid numbers are accurate although out of date now already as there have since been two 2900+ days.

    9/11 will soon (today?) lose its 3rd place slot to Covid.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    HYUFD said:

    Boris entering Brussels tonight with a motorcade that would not shame a US President

    https://twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/1336760812493393920
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Yougov poll voting intention figures give Tories 300, Labour 263, SNP 58, LDs 6 with Electoral Calculus.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1336672178981449731?s=20

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=38&LAB=38&LIB=6&Brexit=3&Green=5&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=19.3&SCOTLAB=19&SCOTLIB=5.7&SCOTBrexit=1&SCOTGreen=1.7&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=51.7&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019

    So the Tories would be largest party but Starmer would be PM with SNP and LD support, the Labour and SNP and LD combined total coming to 327 MPs, an overall majority of 1.

    It would be the first time the party with most seats failed to form the UK government since Baldwin's Tories won most seats in 1923 but Macdonald's Labour formed a government with Asquith's Liberals.

    One non SNP seat in Scotland?
    Almost certainly Ian Murray so hold for Red Toryism; the best of both worlds (for certain folk)!
    Hey you've got to be polite to your local MP! And anyway he's far from a Tory. Further I'd say than Nicola.
    The point is he's a unionist, and plenty who might otherwise vote blue or orange choose to vote red to keep the yellows out.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,398

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
    Approximately a million died over four years. That averages at just under 700 per day on average but I would have thought some days would be much bloodier and some days less. Only a single day of Antietam being on the list just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.
    It's estimated to be 750,000 but no one has the details as they paid more attention to who was where far more than who died when

    https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_casualties#Poor_records has a quick overview.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True

    Although it's probably inaccurate and out of date as https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-us-logs-3157-more-coronavirus-deaths-a-record-for-a-single-day-12150371 says there was 3157 on 1 day

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=covid+deaths+usa&cvid=9d2b4b1639654e469155deb6349846ce&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531 also has a chart with daily new deaths on it.
    Covid-19 is now the number 1 cause of death in the USA, ahead of either cardiovascular disease or cancer.
  • eek said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
    Approximately a million died over four years. That averages at just under 700 per day on average but I would have thought some days would be much bloodier and some days less. Only a single day of Antietam being on the list just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.
    It's estimated to be 750,000 but no one has the details as they paid more attention to who was where far more than who died when

    https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_casualties#Poor_records has a quick overview.
    Estimates vary, up to a million according to that page. Either way seems hard to believe there were no individual days other than one day of Antietam that led to over 2.5k dead.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Facebook's ownership of Instagram AND WhatsApp is a disgraceful monopoly. What's more, they deliberately make Instagram harder to use and crappier in effect, so it won't compete with FB: eg no iPad app for Instagram, a medium absolutely designed for large format screens

    FB should be dismembered. It's a classically malign monopoly
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,804

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
    Approximately a million died over four years. That averages at just under 700 per day on average but I would have thought some days would be much bloodier and some days less. Only a single day of Antietam being on the list just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.
    Wikipedia confirms it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    If a great picture captures the sitter's personality the one above is a masterpiece

    Thanks Roger. I noticed this cutaway to Boris during PMQs, did a screen grab, and thought it would make a great header pic
    It looks to me like the face of a man trying to work out what the hell Ian Blackford is moaning about now.
    glaikit
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    kjh said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
    Approximately a million died over four years. That averages at just under 700 per day on average but I would have thought some days would be much bloodier and some days less. Only a single day of Antietam being on the list just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.
    Wikipedia confirms it.
    Well nearly 3,500 were killed at Shiloh, by far the majority on the first day https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shiloh
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    edited December 2020

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
    Approximately a million died over four years. That averages at just under 700 per day on average but I would have thought some days would be much bloodier and some days less. Only a single day of Antietam being on the list just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.
    I think Antietam/Sharpsburg was particularly bloody, because it took place on a single day, while Gettysburg stretched across three days, for example. Shiloh was particularly brutal too for similar reasons.

    Considering the recorded deaths were 3600, and the high mortality of wounds in those days, that the later deaths from wounds would be of a similar order.

    Normalised to the 2012 US population, Civil War deaths would be 7.5 million.
  • eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Gettysburg was deadlier, but it was spread out over three days.

    Towton in the Wars of the Roses had somewhere between five and ten thousand dead, depending on the source. I read somewhere that 2% of the male population of England died in that battle.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
  • The full text of a secret deal between Switzerland and China that allowed Chinese security officials access to the country at Swiss taxpayers’ expense has been revealed for the first time as the government pushes to renew it.

    The five-year “readmission agreement”, which was signed in 2015 and expired on Monday, lay out terms for Chinese agents to travel to Switzerland and interview suspected Chinese nationals that Swiss authorities wished to deport.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/09/secret-deal-reveals-chinese-spies-free-rein-switzerland
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    I assume there must be some heavy censorship going on, else where are all the rolling news channel reports about the over-capacity, over-stretched, overwhelmed US healthcare system? I'm not disputing the figures, I'm just surprised it isn't more of, well, a story, if it's so bad.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Scott_xP said:
    European turbot is mainly caught in UK waters. The Channel, Cornwall, the North Sea

    Nice piece of symbolism/trolling

    https://www.eumofa.eu/documents/20178/114389/Turbot+in+the+EU#:~:text=Turbot is mostly caught in,reached 5.881 tonnes in 2015.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    And Gettysburg and Vicksburg were on the same day of July 4th 1863. The former was the bloodiest battle of the war. Add on a General Grant victory, which rarely came cheap and we have a much higher figure.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    Could be worse, could be having the Sputnik vaccine...

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1336670466543669249?s=09
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    European turbot is mainly caught in UK waters. The Channel, Cornwall, the North Sea

    Nice piece of symbolism/trolling

    https://www.eumofa.eu/documents/20178/114389/Turbot+in+the+EU#:~:text=Turbot is mostly caught in,reached 5.881 tonnes in 2015.
    Here PM, you can have your fish and eat it.

  • LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    I cannot see any way back for her and the others may find it difficult to continue on Sky
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    I cannot see any way back for her and the others may find it difficult to continue on Sky
    How can she possibly question erring ministers/SPADS when she has so contemptuously ignored the lockdown rules? She can't. And that's her job. She will be very lucky to survive.

    A shame. I quite like her.

    Beth Rigby.....,mmmm..... I can cope without
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Carnyx said:


    Given the massive media attention any time a minor royal breaks wind, and the huge attention to HMTQ's comment re indyref at the time, I wouldn't be so sure.

    There was something about itr in a recentlyt published political memoir, too, which rather emphasised the impoirtance Mr Cameron placed on getting Her Maj to come out with it, which ctrengthen's TSE's point considerably. But I fotget he details, not being a slavish royalist (was put off for life byt doing a scrapbook for Cub Scouts and readingf that book by Her Maj's nanny/governess).

    In any case once we have a new sovereigh and PM the wish to retain a monarchy will change downwards.

    Precisely, it's not necessarily such comments in themselves, it's the fawning amplification of them by our media, particularly our state broadcaster.

    'queen says scots should think very carefully' gives 13.5million hits on Google, with this at the top.




    Saying "think very carefully" during a referendum really ought to not be shocking.

    I'd be like "I've thought carefully about it and am voting Yes".
    If she'd said similar before the EU referendum, the streets would have been strewn with prolapsing Faragistas.
    I think the Queen did subtly do her best to influence both refs - Indy against and Brexit for, without explicitly endorsing her preferred outcome.

    I think there's some justification for that action in the national importance of both these events. Nobody would think twice about the Royal family supporting the UK against an external aggressor, so it seems somewhat unrealistic to expect them to be blase about the prospect of internal political dissolution, or (and I accept this is a more niche perspective) of external political subsumption. I wouldn't expect the monarch to take a view on other political issues.
    The problem with that is that it is a Scottish momarchy first and foremost!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited December 2020
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    I cannot see any way back for her and the others may find it difficult to continue on Sky
    How can she possibly question erring ministers/SPADS when she has so contemptuously ignored the lockdown rules? She can't. And that's her job. She will be very lucky to survive.

    A shame. I quite like her.

    Beth Rigby.....,mmmm..... I can cope without
    Adam Boulton wouldn't be sad to see Death Rigby getting the boot.

    https://youtu.be/zwXSYcXbVYY
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Foxy said:

    Could be worse, could be having the Sputnik vaccine...

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1336670466543669249?s=09

    I read somewhere that the head of Gamelya said it was only six days. And now I can't find it and am mildly annoyed.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:


    Given the massive media attention any time a minor royal breaks wind, and the huge attention to HMTQ's comment re indyref at the time, I wouldn't be so sure.

    There was something about itr in a recentlyt published political memoir, too, which rather emphasised the impoirtance Mr Cameron placed on getting Her Maj to come out with it, which ctrengthen's TSE's point considerably. But I fotget he details, not being a slavish royalist (was put off for life byt doing a scrapbook for Cub Scouts and readingf that book by Her Maj's nanny/governess).

    In any case once we have a new sovereigh and PM the wish to retain a monarchy will change downwards.

    Precisely, it's not necessarily such comments in themselves, it's the fawning amplification of them by our media, particularly our state broadcaster.

    'queen says scots should think very carefully' gives 13.5million hits on Google, with this at the top.




    Saying "think very carefully" during a referendum really ought to not be shocking.

    I'd be like "I've thought carefully about it and am voting Yes".
    If she'd said similar before the EU referendum, the streets would have been strewn with prolapsing Faragistas.
    I think the Queen did subtly do her best to influence both refs - Indy against and Brexit for, without explicitly endorsing her preferred outcome.

    I think there's some justification for that action in the national importance of both these events. Nobody would think twice about the Royal family supporting the UK against an external aggressor, so it seems somewhat unrealistic to expect them to be blase about the prospect of internal political dissolution, or (and I accept this is a more niche perspective) of external political subsumption. I wouldn't expect the monarch to take a view on other political issues.
    The problem with that is that it is a Scottish momarchy first and foremost!
    Nice one, momarchy.

  • I assume there must be some heavy censorship going on, else where are all the rolling news channel reports about the over-capacity, over-stretched, overwhelmed US healthcare system? I'm not disputing the figures, I'm just surprised it isn't more of, well, a story, if it's so bad.

    This sort of thing you mean?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9gxeOXoals
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    LadyG said:
    Nonsense. Boris has been at his Churchillian best all day, the UK are on for a bloody good result this evening.

    The bottom line is Rosy is not in the same league as Boris as tough negotiator. The EU may have some good arguments, but that means zilch when comes down to a negotiation, the better negotiator wins regardless of the hand dealt.

    The UK wanted it to come down to this. Boris v Rosy. UK wins. This is the guy who negotiated the brexit win with the voters, negotiated to be PM, then destroyed the Labour Party in its heartlands negotiating with the voters.

    Disagree? You actually think Rosy is a tougher, better negotiator than Boris is? Just based on your prejudice not fact.

    It’s like the Battle of Britain tonight. Blighty v Germany. If Global Britain were to last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was his finest hour.”
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    gealbhan said:

    LadyG said:
    Nonsense. Boris has been at his Churchillian best all day, the UK are on for a bloody good result this evening.

    The bottom line is Rosy is not in the same league as Boris as tough negotiator. The EU may have some good arguments, but that means zilch when comes down to a negotiation, the better negotiator wins regardless of the hand dealt.

    The UK wanted it to come down to this. Boris v Rosy. UK wins. This is the guy who negotiated the brexit win with the voters, negotiated to be PM, then destroyed the Labour Party in its heartlands negotiating with the voters.

    Disagree? You actually think Rosy is a tougher, better negotiator than Boris is? Just based on your prejudice not fact.

    It’s like the Battle of Britain tonight. Blighty v Germany. If Global Britain were to last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was his finest hour.”
    lol
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    HYUFD said:

    Boris entering Brussels tonight with a motorcade that would not shame a US President

    https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1336758776553238528?s=20

    Go Boris!
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited December 2020
    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    gealbhan said:

    LadyG said:
    Nonsense. Boris has been at his Churchillian best all day, the UK are on for a bloody good result this evening.

    The bottom line is Rosy is not in the same league as Boris as tough negotiator. The EU may have some good arguments, but that means zilch when comes down to a negotiation, the better negotiator wins regardless of the hand dealt.

    The UK wanted it to come down to this. Boris v Rosy. UK wins. This is the guy who negotiated the brexit win with the voters, negotiated to be PM, then destroyed the Labour Party in its heartlands negotiating with the voters.

    Disagree? You actually think Rosy is a tougher, better negotiator than Boris is? Just based on your prejudice not fact.

    It’s like the Battle of Britain tonight. Blighty v Germany. If Global Britain were to last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was his finest hour.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXbDQBsFFIE

    (I do so like that film, I must admit.)
  • DavidL said:

    And Gettysburg and Vicksburg were on the same day of July 4th 1863. The former was the bloodiest battle of the war. Add on a General Grant victory, which rarely came cheap and we have a much higher figure.

    Vicksburg was a siege: the 4th of July was when the confederates finally gave up as they were starving, so I doubt too many died on that day.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited December 2020
    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically

    What do you mean, that is way down on the peak....at one point a few weeks ago they were at 20-30k cases a day, with a positivity rate through the roof.

    And it got zero coverage.
  • I assume there must be some heavy censorship going on, else where are all the rolling news channel reports about the over-capacity, over-stretched, overwhelmed US healthcare system? I'm not disputing the figures, I'm just surprised it isn't more of, well, a story, if it's so bad.

    Or this from ABC yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXE4gV-PKQ
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

  • LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Germany's approach post lockdown #1 looks a bit strange. Their first reaction, test like crazy, close the borders, lockdown hard, and it worked fairlh well....then they went foreign summer holidays for all and a much softer lockdown second time around.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Carnyx said:

    gealbhan said:

    LadyG said:
    Nonsense. Boris has been at his Churchillian best all day, the UK are on for a bloody good result this evening.

    The bottom line is Rosy is not in the same league as Boris as tough negotiator. The EU may have some good arguments, but that means zilch when comes down to a negotiation, the better negotiator wins regardless of the hand dealt.

    The UK wanted it to come down to this. Boris v Rosy. UK wins. This is the guy who negotiated the brexit win with the voters, negotiated to be PM, then destroyed the Labour Party in its heartlands negotiating with the voters.

    Disagree? You actually think Rosy is a tougher, better negotiator than Boris is? Just based on your prejudice not fact.

    It’s like the Battle of Britain tonight. Blighty v Germany. If Global Britain were to last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was his finest hour.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXbDQBsFFIE

    (I do so like that film, I must admit.)
    That’s the spirit.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,480
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:


    Given the massive media attention any time a minor royal breaks wind, and the huge attention to HMTQ's comment re indyref at the time, I wouldn't be so sure.

    There was something about itr in a recentlyt published political memoir, too, which rather emphasised the impoirtance Mr Cameron placed on getting Her Maj to come out with it, which ctrengthen's TSE's point considerably. But I fotget he details, not being a slavish royalist (was put off for life byt doing a scrapbook for Cub Scouts and readingf that book by Her Maj's nanny/governess).

    In any case once we have a new sovereigh and PM the wish to retain a monarchy will change downwards.

    Precisely, it's not necessarily such comments in themselves, it's the fawning amplification of them by our media, particularly our state broadcaster.

    'queen says scots should think very carefully' gives 13.5million hits on Google, with this at the top.




    Saying "think very carefully" during a referendum really ought to not be shocking.

    I'd be like "I've thought carefully about it and am voting Yes".
    If she'd said similar before the EU referendum, the streets would have been strewn with prolapsing Faragistas.
    I think the Queen did subtly do her best to influence both refs - Indy against and Brexit for, without explicitly endorsing her preferred outcome.

    I think there's some justification for that action in the national importance of both these events. Nobody would think twice about the Royal family supporting the UK against an external aggressor, so it seems somewhat unrealistic to expect them to be blase about the prospect of internal political dissolution, or (and I accept this is a more niche perspective) of external political subsumption. I wouldn't expect the monarch to take a view on other political issues.
    The problem with that is that it is a Scottish monarchy first and foremost!
    I agree with you, but why do you think that's the problem with it?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Germany's approach post lockdown #1 looks a bit strange. Their first reaction, test like crazy, close the borders, lockdown hard, and it worked fairlh well....then they went foreign summer holidays for all and a much softer lockdown second time around.
    Yes. Merkel (and the Federal regions) completely fucked up the 2nd wave. I suspect a case of hubris, with a dash of German exceptionalism. "For you, Covid, ze plague war is now over."
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    I assume there must be some heavy censorship going on, else where are all the rolling news channel reports about the over-capacity, over-stretched, overwhelmed US healthcare system? I'm not disputing the figures, I'm just surprised it isn't more of, well, a story, if it's so bad.

    I think the first wave in the USA was very focal, for example NYC. This wave is worse, but more spread out, so the tales are too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    edited December 2020

    It is strange how second time around we aren't getting the nightly look how shit the UK is doing compared to rest of Europe from the media.

    The figures are pretty grim everywhere* and to an extent that becomes the new normal, and 500 deaths from covid is no longer a headline.

    *except the Western Pacific nations.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited December 2020
    Meanwhile, back in the USA...

    'Texas’s motion for leave to file a lawsuit, which seeks to have the justices throw out the election results in the states of Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, and Wisconsin (all of which Trump lost), landed on the high court’s docket on Tuesday. Election law experts dismissed the lawsuit as nothing more than a stunt, albeit a “dangerous” one. But President Trump’s supporters seized on the simple fact that the justices are requiring the states to respond by Thursday as evidence that the court will actually hear—or has actually agreed to hear—the case. It is unlikely that the court will decide to hear the case and the court has not agreed to hear it.'

    So, apart from Trump, Contrarian and Betfair, who stills thinks the result might be overturned?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,602
    LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    "Burley herself deleted a tweet saying that she was going on holiday on Friday to go “sit with lions”, adding: “They kill for food not sport” – an apparent reference to media coverage of the situation."

    How stupid? On a scale of 1 to one million?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I assume there must be some heavy censorship going on, else where are all the rolling news channel reports about the over-capacity, over-stretched, overwhelmed US healthcare system? I'm not disputing the figures, I'm just surprised it isn't more of, well, a story, if it's so bad.

    This sort of thing you mean?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9gxeOXoals
    And

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-renown-health-hospital-parking-garage/

    Trump tweeted that he thought this was faked. The news crew started getting death threats.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited December 2020

    It is strange how second time around we aren't getting the nightly look how shit the UK is doing compared to rest of Europe from the media.

    The UK is about to drop out of the top 10 of "deaths per million".

    We are now at number 9, behind Belgium, Spain. Italy, Peru, Bosnia (and micronations). I expect we will be overtaken by Slovenia and the USA, and maybe Argentina and Mexico. Leaving us in 12th or so. Or lower.

    Not great. Not great at all. We were meant to be super well prepared for a pandemic.

    However, ours has not been The Worst Response in History, given our dense population, high obesity, older demogs, BAME populace, super world city in London, etc etc

    The country that HAS performed weirdly badly is Belgium.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited December 2020
    Starship test in just under six minutes?

    Edit: about 9:04pm
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:


    Given the massive media attention any time a minor royal breaks wind, and the huge attention to HMTQ's comment re indyref at the time, I wouldn't be so sure.

    There was something about itr in a recentlyt published political memoir, too, which rather emphasised the impoirtance Mr Cameron placed on getting Her Maj to come out with it, which ctrengthen's TSE's point considerably. But I fotget he details, not being a slavish royalist (was put off for life byt doing a scrapbook for Cub Scouts and readingf that book by Her Maj's nanny/governess).

    In any case once we have a new sovereigh and PM the wish to retain a monarchy will change downwards.

    Precisely, it's not necessarily such comments in themselves, it's the fawning amplification of them by our media, particularly our state broadcaster.

    'queen says scots should think very carefully' gives 13.5million hits on Google, with this at the top.




    Saying "think very carefully" during a referendum really ought to not be shocking.

    I'd be like "I've thought carefully about it and am voting Yes".
    If she'd said similar before the EU referendum, the streets would have been strewn with prolapsing Faragistas.
    I think the Queen did subtly do her best to influence both refs - Indy against and Brexit for, without explicitly endorsing her preferred outcome.

    I think there's some justification for that action in the national importance of both these events. Nobody would think twice about the Royal family supporting the UK against an external aggressor, so it seems somewhat unrealistic to expect them to be blase about the prospect of internal political dissolution, or (and I accept this is a more niche perspective) of external political subsumption. I wouldn't expect the monarch to take a view on other political issues.
    The problem with that is that it is a Scottish monarchy first and foremost!
    I agree with you, but why do you think that's the problem with it?
    Just the idea that it is somehow dependent on the Union of the Parliaments. The Commonwealth show otherwise. So from her point of view it is a zero sum game unless she lets secular politics interfere. Which she is not supposed to do.
  • LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    "Burley herself deleted a tweet saying that she was going on holiday on Friday to go “sit with lions”, adding: “They kill for food not sport” – an apparent reference to media coverage of the situation."

    How stupid? On a scale of 1 to one million?
    I saw that at the time and thought not a great look is it on a nunber of levels.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    gealbhan said:

    LadyG said:
    Nonsense. Boris has been at his Churchillian best all day, the UK are on for a bloody good result this evening.

    The bottom line is Rosy is not in the same league as Boris as tough negotiator. The EU may have some good arguments, but that means zilch when comes down to a negotiation, the better negotiator wins regardless of the hand dealt.

    The UK wanted it to come down to this. Boris v Rosy. UK wins. This is the guy who negotiated the brexit win with the voters, negotiated to be PM, then destroyed the Labour Party in its heartlands negotiating with the voters.

    Disagree? You actually think Rosy is a tougher, better negotiator than Boris is? Just based on your prejudice not fact.

    It’s like the Battle of Britain tonight. Blighty v Germany. If Global Britain were to last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was his finest hour.”
    I wish I could write such excellent satire. It is nearly as good as Hannan's efforts:

    https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    LadyG said:

    It is strange how second time around we aren't getting the nightly look how shit the UK is doing compared to rest of Europe from the media.

    The UK is about to drop out of the top 10 of "deaths per million".

    We are now at number 9, behind Belgium, Spain. Italy, Peru, Bosnia (and micronations). I expect we will be overtaken by Slovenia and the USA, and maybe Argentina and Mexico. Leaving us in 12th or so. Or lower.

    Not great. Not great at all. We were meant to be super well prepared for a pandemic.

    However, ours has not been The Worst Response in History, given our dense population, high obesity, older demogs, BAME populace, super world city in London, etc etc

    The country that HAS performed weirdly badly is Belgium.
    It was already out of the top 10 a month ago, so picking the moment is key.

    Belgium's being so far above anyone else but San Marino is pretty notable, even with caveats about playing the numbers game on this.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    edited December 2020
    Alistair said:

    I assume there must be some heavy censorship going on, else where are all the rolling news channel reports about the over-capacity, over-stretched, overwhelmed US healthcare system? I'm not disputing the figures, I'm just surprised it isn't more of, well, a story, if it's so bad.

    This sort of thing you mean?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9gxeOXoals
    And

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-renown-health-hospital-parking-garage/

    Trump tweeted that he thought this was faked. The news crew started getting death threats.
    Talking about dying, there was a link to this on that page -

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona-republican-party-twitter-death-overturn-presidential-election-results/

    "Arizona Republican Party asks followers if they're willing to die to overturn election results"
  • Starship test in just under six minutes?

    Edit: about 9:04pm

    Hold on the countdown.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,602

    LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    "Burley herself deleted a tweet saying that she was going on holiday on Friday to go “sit with lions”, adding: “They kill for food not sport” – an apparent reference to media coverage of the situation."

    How stupid? On a scale of 1 to one million?
    I saw that at the time and thought not a great look is it on a nunber of levels.
    They who go out for a meal in breach of Covid restrictions risk killing for food....
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    I cannot see any way back for her and the others may find it difficult to continue on Sky
    How can she possibly question erring ministers/SPADS when she has so contemptuously ignored the lockdown rules? She can't. And that's her job. She will be very lucky to survive.

    A shame. I quite like her.

    Beth Rigby.....,mmmm..... I can cope without
    Adam Boulton wouldn't be sad to see Death Rigby getting the boot.

    https://youtu.be/zwXSYcXbVYY
    Looks as though he’d had a good lunch beforehand. Reminiscent of Drop the Dead Donkey, of course.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited December 2020
    Carnyx said:

    gealbhan said:

    LadyG said:
    Nonsense. Boris has been at his Churchillian best all day, the UK are on for a bloody good result this evening.

    The bottom line is Rosy is not in the same league as Boris as tough negotiator. The EU may have some good arguments, but that means zilch when comes down to a negotiation, the better negotiator wins regardless of the hand dealt.

    The UK wanted it to come down to this. Boris v Rosy. UK wins. This is the guy who negotiated the brexit win with the voters, negotiated to be PM, then destroyed the Labour Party in its heartlands negotiating with the voters.

    Disagree? You actually think Rosy is a tougher, better negotiator than Boris is? Just based on your prejudice not fact.

    It’s like the Battle of Britain tonight. Blighty v Germany. If Global Britain were to last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was his finest hour.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXbDQBsFFIE

    (I do so like that film, I must admit.)
    Some good tunes and dogfights but is Angels One Five a better film about the Battle of Britain?

    And on negotiation, should we not worry Boris does not understand the detail or the implications? Look at his on-off relationship with Theresa May's WA, or his own pledges ignored. I don't think Boris was lying so much as careless with the truth because he really could not care less.
  • LadyG said:

    Burley is finished, I think. At least at Sky
    "Burley herself deleted a tweet saying that she was going on holiday on Friday to go “sit with lions”, adding: “They kill for food not sport” – an apparent reference to media coverage of the situation."

    How stupid? On a scale of 1 to one million?
    I saw that at the time and thought not a great look is it on a nunber of levels.
    She will not forget her 60th birthday party and for all the wrong reasons
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Many civil war battles had overall higher death figures but over multiple days. Cold Harbour was a particularly bloody and gruesome engagement but the thousands Union dead were spread over 3 days.

    Also when you read casualty figures you might well be reading dead and wounded rather than just deaths.
    Approximately a million died over four years. That averages at just under 700 per day on average but I would have thought some days would be much bloodier and some days less. Only a single day of Antietam being on the list just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.
    The deaths will be very spread out. The majority of casualties are wounded not dead from a day of battle. But the wounded will die later spread out over days or weeks or months.

    Disease and malnutrition will have killed huge numbers in the ACW but once again spread out over a long time period.

    I'm not saying there won't have been days during the ACW where more people died than that list but the majority of deaths didn't come in battle.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    edited December 2020
    There is an oddity in the ONS death figures (latest given in link below - see fig 2) that I can't fathom. Maybe the PB brains trust can help?

    3,000 a week are dying with flu/pneumonia as a contributing factor, but hardly anyone is dying due directly to these two. Whereas with covid deaths it is the reverse. 3,000 a week covid deaths. Most of the covid deaths are due to the disease and not with it as a contributor.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending27november2020

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    edited December 2020
    Foxy said:

    gealbhan said:

    LadyG said:
    Nonsense. Boris has been at his Churchillian best all day, the UK are on for a bloody good result this evening.

    The bottom line is Rosy is not in the same league as Boris as tough negotiator. The EU may have some good arguments, but that means zilch when comes down to a negotiation, the better negotiator wins regardless of the hand dealt.

    The UK wanted it to come down to this. Boris v Rosy. UK wins. This is the guy who negotiated the brexit win with the voters, negotiated to be PM, then destroyed the Labour Party in its heartlands negotiating with the voters.

    Disagree? You actually think Rosy is a tougher, better negotiator than Boris is? Just based on your prejudice not fact.

    It’s like the Battle of Britain tonight. Blighty v Germany. If Global Britain were to last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was his finest hour.”
    I wish I could write such excellent satire. It is nearly as good as Hannan's efforts:

    https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
    Tongue in cheek I know, but this is a great header photo with that piece.

  • geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    On the bright side, a friend who can be safely described as a front line worker in the Covid battle has just been vaccinated. It's a huge relief to us all. She really did put her life on the line for people, and now has every chance of coming through unscathed.

    She gets an extra special hug at Christmas.
    Erm, she needs two vaccinations to be safe for hugs surely?
  • Meanwhile, back in the USA...

    'Texas’s motion for leave to file a lawsuit, which seeks to have the justices throw out the election results in the states of Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, and Wisconsin (all of which Trump lost), landed on the high court’s docket on Tuesday. Election law experts dismissed the lawsuit as nothing more than a stunt, albeit a “dangerous” one. But President Trump’s supporters seized on the simple fact that the justices are requiring the states to respond by Thursday as evidence that the court will actually hear—or has actually agreed to hear—the case. It is unlikely that the court will decide to hear the case and the court has not agreed to hear it.'

    So, apart from Trump, Contrarian and Betfair, who stills thinks the result might be overturned?

    Patience. Five days to go before Betfair settles on the 14th, or 15th depending when the Electoral College actually votes and taking into account time zones, or comes up with a new excuse not to settle.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Foxy said:

    It is strange how second time around we aren't getting the nightly look how shit the UK is doing compared to rest of Europe from the media.

    The figures are pretty grim everywhere* and to an extent that becomes the new normal, and 500 deaths from covid is no longer a headline.

    *except the Western Pacific nations.
    Except that the British media, eg Piers Morgan, were obsessed with the fact that we were doing exceptionally badly, and everyone involved should be burned at the stake.

    Some of us at the time said, well, let's wait and see, this is going to last a year or two, at the end maybe we will all look roughly the same

    As of now that second opinion looks valid. Britain took a tough first punch because we are a very open, global, trading, multicultural nation with a vast world city at its heart. Ideal conditions for spreading a bug like covid, before it is noticed.

    Now the virus is hunting more obscure prey in eastern Europe, the Mid East, south Africa, etc

    Don't get me wrong. HMG of the UK fucked up in multiple ways. But I'm increasingly unsure about any western countries which did NOT fuck up. Asia did it all better than any of us.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,480
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:


    Given the massive media attention any time a minor royal breaks wind, and the huge attention to HMTQ's comment re indyref at the time, I wouldn't be so sure.

    There was something about itr in a recentlyt published political memoir, too, which rather emphasised the impoirtance Mr Cameron placed on getting Her Maj to come out with it, which ctrengthen's TSE's point considerably. But I fotget he details, not being a slavish royalist (was put off for life byt doing a scrapbook for Cub Scouts and readingf that book by Her Maj's nanny/governess).

    In any case once we have a new sovereigh and PM the wish to retain a monarchy will change downwards.

    Precisely, it's not necessarily such comments in themselves, it's the fawning amplification of them by our media, particularly our state broadcaster.

    'queen says scots should think very carefully' gives 13.5million hits on Google, with this at the top.




    Saying "think very carefully" during a referendum really ought to not be shocking.

    I'd be like "I've thought carefully about it and am voting Yes".
    If she'd said similar before the EU referendum, the streets would have been strewn with prolapsing Faragistas.
    I think the Queen did subtly do her best to influence both refs - Indy against and Brexit for, without explicitly endorsing her preferred outcome.

    I think there's some justification for that action in the national importance of both these events. Nobody would think twice about the Royal family supporting the UK against an external aggressor, so it seems somewhat unrealistic to expect them to be blase about the prospect of internal political dissolution, or (and I accept this is a more niche perspective) of external political subsumption. I wouldn't expect the monarch to take a view on other political issues.
    The problem with that is that it is a Scottish monarchy first and foremost!
    I agree with you, but why do you think that's the problem with it?
    Just the idea that it is somehow dependent on the Union of the Parliaments. The Commonwealth show otherwise. So from her point of view it is a zero sum game unless she lets secular politics interfere. Which she is not supposed to do.
    I don't think it's quite as simple as that. The British Monarchy is still quite central to our constitution. It isn't a toy monarchy like some German or Sicilian Prince where 'Prince' means nothing more than having an interesting title at parties on yachts in Monaco with lots of other ephemeral rich people. That would not be assured with an indy Scotland. I am sure the Monarchy would adapt elegantly to Scotland leaving, but personally I think the Queen would be devastated if it happened on her watch.
  • So does Wales get a lockdown next week ?

    And does London get tier 3 next week ?
  • OnboardG1 said:

    Foxy said:

    Could be worse, could be having the Sputnik vaccine...

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1336670466543669249?s=09

    I read somewhere that the head of Gamelya said it was only six days. And now I can't find it and am mildly annoyed.
    If Putin thinks a vaccine that requires Russians to lay off booze for two months is gonna work, then he doesn't know his own country.
  • So does Wales get a lockdown next week ?

    And does London get tier 3 next week ?

    It should but I do not expect it
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    I think lots of EU countries are making their own plans. I've read about Germany, Spain and Italy already, this add Poland. Hungary are also signed up to buy the no booze Russian one but they might bail out of that now.

    From what I can tell the countries are getting frustrated on the lack of detail over delivery schedules and expected capacity. I think they're looking over the channel wondering why it's all happening late for a vaccine developed by a German company and manufactured in Belgium.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited December 2020
    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    It is strange how second time around we aren't getting the nightly look how shit the UK is doing compared to rest of Europe from the media.

    The figures are pretty grim everywhere* and to an extent that becomes the new normal, and 500 deaths from covid is no longer a headline.

    *except the Western Pacific nations.
    Except that the British media, eg Piers Morgan, were obsessed with the fact that we were doing exceptionally badly, and everyone involved should be burned at the stake.

    Some of us at the time said, well, let's wait and see, this is going to last a year or two, at the end maybe we will all look roughly the same

    As of now that second opinion looks valid. Britain took a tough first punch because we are a very open, global, trading, multicultural nation with a vast world city at its heart. Ideal conditions for spreading a bug like covid, before it is noticed.

    Now the virus is hunting more obscure prey in eastern Europe, the Mid East, south Africa, etc

    Don't get me wrong. HMG of the UK fucked up in multiple ways. But I'm increasingly unsure about any western countries which did NOT fuck up. Asia did it all better than any of us.
    The number of countries who "done good", with similar Western liberal values / economies, is now down to basically Australia and New Zealand.

    I think Australia is the most interesting case, as unlike New Zealand, they have large direct connections to China and several very large dense cities. Amazing what shutting your border quickly, sensible hotel based quarantine system and restricting travel between states can do.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    It is strange how second time around we aren't getting the nightly look how shit the UK is doing compared to rest of Europe from the media.

    The figures are pretty grim everywhere* and to an extent that becomes the new normal, and 500 deaths from covid is no longer a headline.

    *except the Western Pacific nations.
    Except that the British media, eg Piers Morgan, were obsessed with the fact that we were doing exceptionally badly, and everyone involved should be burned at the stake.

    Some of us at the time said, well, let's wait and see, this is going to last a year or two, at the end maybe we will all look roughly the same

    As of now that second opinion looks valid. Britain took a tough first punch because we are a very open, global, trading, multicultural nation with a vast world city at its heart. Ideal conditions for spreading a bug like covid, before it is noticed.

    Now the virus is hunting more obscure prey in eastern Europe, the Mid East, south Africa, etc

    Don't get me wrong. HMG of the UK fucked up in multiple ways. But I'm increasingly unsure about any western countries which did NOT fuck up. Asia did it all better than any of us.
    You think we should have lied and covered it up and pretended that it was all someone else's fault?
  • eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Gettysburg was deadlier, but it was spread out over three days.

    Towton in the Wars of the Roses had somewhere between five and ten thousand dead, depending on the source. I read somewhere that 2% of the male population of England died in that battle.

    eek said:

    Grim

    Is that true or fake?
    True
    I'm very surprised the Civil War didn't result in deadlier days than that.
    Gettysburg was deadlier, but it was spread out over three days.

    Towton in the Wars of the Roses had somewhere between five and ten thousand dead, depending on the source. I read somewhere that 2% of the male population of England died in that battle.
    And it was nothing more than a turf war really. Silly Billies.
  • OnboardG1 said:

    Foxy said:

    Could be worse, could be having the Sputnik vaccine...

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1336670466543669249?s=09

    I read somewhere that the head of Gamelya said it was only six days. And now I can't find it and am mildly annoyed.
    If Putin thinks a vaccine that requires Russians to lay off booze for two months is gonna work, then he doesn't know his own country.
    I'm sure it would be a lazy stereotype to suggest that getting Russians to stop drinking for two months would save a lot of lives even if the vaccine were a placebo.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,459

    geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    On the bright side, a friend who can be safely described as a front line worker in the Covid battle has just been vaccinated. It's a huge relief to us all. She really did put her life on the line for people, and now has every chance of coming through unscathed.

    She gets an extra special hug at Christmas.
    Erm, she needs two vaccinations to be safe for hugs surely?
    For maximum yes, but data seen today suggests a pretty good efficacy 10 days after the first shot (see up thread).
  • https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1336776383289315335

    That would be good. I refuse to use Whatsapp because Zuckerberg has control of its data now.
  • LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically

    What do you mean, that is way down on the peak....at one point a few weeks ago they were at 20-30k cases a day, with a positivity rate through the roof.

    And it got zero coverage.
    One of our Polish friends living in Edinburgh lost her father last week. The family think he got Covid but he refused to go to the doctor or be tested. His daughter hasn't gone to his funeral because she couldn't afford the time to quarantine on arriving there and on returning home. She also wasn't sure if she's allowed to travel anyway. Tragic.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    There is an oddity in the ONS death figures (latest given in link below - see fig 2) that I can't fathom. Maybe the PB brains trust can help?

    3,000 a week are dying with flu/pneumonia as a contributing factor, but hardly anyone is dying due directly to these two. Whereas with covid deaths it is the reverse. 3,000 a week covid deaths. Most of the covid deaths are due to the disease and not with it as a contributor.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending27november2020

    I guess it comes down to whether they think the person was going to snuff it soon and COVID/Flu/Pneumonia finished them off.
  • MaxPB said:

    I think lots of EU countries are making their own plans. I've read about Germany, Spain and Italy already, this add Poland. Hungary are also signed up to buy the no booze Russian one but they might bail out of that now.

    From what I can tell the countries are getting frustrated on the lack of detail over delivery schedules and expected capacity. I think they're looking over the channel wondering why it's all happening late for a vaccine developed by a German company and manufactured in Belgium.
    Well the EU ventilator scheme didn't go so well....When Czechia required them, they got all of 30, and had to beg, borrow, steal from all their neighbours.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    It is strange how second time around we aren't getting the nightly look how shit the UK is doing compared to rest of Europe from the media.

    The figures are pretty grim everywhere* and to an extent that becomes the new normal, and 500 deaths from covid is no longer a headline.

    *except the Western Pacific nations.
    Except that the British media, eg Piers Morgan, were obsessed with the fact that we were doing exceptionally badly, and everyone involved should be burned at the stake.

    Some of us at the time said, well, let's wait and see, this is going to last a year or two, at the end maybe we will all look roughly the same

    As of now that second opinion looks valid. Britain took a tough first punch because we are a very open, global, trading, multicultural nation with a vast world city at its heart. Ideal conditions for spreading a bug like covid, before it is noticed.

    Now the virus is hunting more obscure prey in eastern Europe, the Mid East, south Africa, etc

    Don't get me wrong. HMG of the UK fucked up in multiple ways. But I'm increasingly unsure about any western countries which did NOT fuck up. Asia did it all better than any of us.
    Asia not looking quite the poster child it was

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-surge-hits-parts-of-asia-seen-as-pandemic-success-stories-11607523625
  • geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    On the bright side, a friend who can be safely described as a front line worker in the Covid battle has just been vaccinated. It's a huge relief to us all. She really did put her life on the line for people, and now has every chance of coming through unscathed.

    She gets an extra special hug at Christmas.
    Erm, she needs two vaccinations to be safe for hugs surely?
    For maximum yes, but data seen today suggests a pretty good efficacy 10 days after the first shot (see up thread).

    geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    geoffw said:

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically


    Also (edit): Germany. After a series of bad days, another bad day: 20,000 cases, and 454 deaths. Germany now has one of the worst covid problems in Europe.

    Let's just hope it doesn't work its way round the vaccines.

    On the bright side, a friend who can be safely described as a front line worker in the Covid battle has just been vaccinated. It's a huge relief to us all. She really did put her life on the line for people, and now has every chance of coming through unscathed.

    She gets an extra special hug at Christmas.
    Erm, she needs two vaccinations to be safe for hugs surely?
    For maximum yes, but data seen today suggests a pretty good efficacy 10 days after the first shot (see up thread).
    Shan't be seeing her till Christmas Day.

    Mind you, my hugs are pretty explosive.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934

    MaxPB said:

    I think lots of EU countries are making their own plans. I've read about Germany, Spain and Italy already, this add Poland. Hungary are also signed up to buy the no booze Russian one but they might bail out of that now.

    From what I can tell the countries are getting frustrated on the lack of detail over delivery schedules and expected capacity. I think they're looking over the channel wondering why it's all happening late for a vaccine developed by a German company and manufactured in Belgium.
    Well the EU ventilator scheme didn't go so well....When Czechia required them, they got all of 30, and had to beg, borrow, steal from all their neighbours.
    And to think, some wanted the UK to join on purely ideological grounds.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited December 2020

    LadyG said:

    Poland is suddenly looking grim

    12,000 cases, 570 deaths.

    Would have been headline European figures in the Spring


    The virus is working its way around the western world. Methodically

    What do you mean, that is way down on the peak....at one point a few weeks ago they were at 20-30k cases a day, with a positivity rate through the roof.

    And it got zero coverage.
    One of our Polish friends living in Edinburgh lost her father last week. The family think he got Covid but he refused to go to the doctor or be tested. His daughter hasn't gone to his funeral because she couldn't afford the time to quarantine on arriving there and on returning home. She also wasn't sure if she's allowed to travel anyway. Tragic.
    I would have to double check, but at one point the positivity rate on those going for tests for up at 30-40%. And they aren't doing much testing. So it must have been incredibly widespread in November.

    Without good testing, you never know if you get lucky and it is just loads of young people passing among themselves and you have escaped, or if if its now getting to the oldies, so can have less cases, more deaths.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Meanwhile, back in the USA...

    'Texas’s motion for leave to file a lawsuit, which seeks to have the justices throw out the election results in the states of Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, and Wisconsin (all of which Trump lost), landed on the high court’s docket on Tuesday. Election law experts dismissed the lawsuit as nothing more than a stunt, albeit a “dangerous” one. But President Trump’s supporters seized on the simple fact that the justices are requiring the states to respond by Thursday as evidence that the court will actually hear—or has actually agreed to hear—the case. It is unlikely that the court will decide to hear the case and the court has not agreed to hear it.'

    So, apart from Trump, Contrarian and Betfair, who stills thinks the result might be overturned?

    Good evening.

    I understand more than a dozen other US states have now joined Texas in seeking redress for the unconstitutional actions by the four states being sued

    That's a lot of states for the Supreme Court to ignore, right there.

    Indeed, what would be the point of the Supreme Court, or the constitution, if the case were ignored...? the whole thing would be a sham. Maybe it is, anyway.

    Interestingly only 7 states formed the original confederacy....
  • OnboardG1 said:

    Foxy said:

    Could be worse, could be having the Sputnik vaccine...

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1336670466543669249?s=09

    I read somewhere that the head of Gamelya said it was only six days. And now I can't find it and am mildly annoyed.
    If Putin thinks a vaccine that requires Russians to lay off booze for two months is gonna work, then he doesn't know his own country.
    I'm sure it would be a lazy stereotype to suggest that getting Russians to stop drinking for two months would save a lot of lives even if the vaccine were a placebo.

    OnboardG1 said:

    Foxy said:

    Could be worse, could be having the Sputnik vaccine...

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1336670466543669249?s=09

    I read somewhere that the head of Gamelya said it was only six days. And now I can't find it and am mildly annoyed.
    If Putin thinks a vaccine that requires Russians to lay off booze for two months is gonna work, then he doesn't know his own country.
    I'm sure it would be a lazy stereotype to suggest that getting Russians to stop drinking for two months would save a lot of lives even if the vaccine were a placebo.
    It's probably true.
  • MaxPB said:

    I think lots of EU countries are making their own plans. I've read about Germany, Spain and Italy already, this add Poland. Hungary are also signed up to buy the no booze Russian one but they might bail out of that now.

    From what I can tell the countries are getting frustrated on the lack of detail over delivery schedules and expected capacity. I think they're looking over the channel wondering why it's all happening late for a vaccine developed by a German company and manufactured in Belgium.
    Well the EU ventilator scheme didn't go so well....When Czechia required them, they got all of 30, and had to beg, borrow, steal from all their neighbours.
    The only contender for doing worse than Belgium is the EU.
  • RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think lots of EU countries are making their own plans. I've read about Germany, Spain and Italy already, this add Poland. Hungary are also signed up to buy the no booze Russian one but they might bail out of that now.

    From what I can tell the countries are getting frustrated on the lack of detail over delivery schedules and expected capacity. I think they're looking over the channel wondering why it's all happening late for a vaccine developed by a German company and manufactured in Belgium.
    Well the EU ventilator scheme didn't go so well....When Czechia required them, they got all of 30, and had to beg, borrow, steal from all their neighbours.
    And to think, some wanted the UK to join on purely ideological grounds.
    We all remember the pasted tweets telling us we had to join the EU ventilator scheme, the EU PPE scheme, the EU vaccine scheme ...
This discussion has been closed.