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As Trump continues to be in denial about his defeat Biden gets a significant Gallup favourability bo

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  • HippoHippo Posts: 1
    Couple of things on the US presidentials...

    The 8 Dec "safe harbour" is for state courts only, so I won't be surprised if BF don't settle tomorrow.

    And why of the "candidates" other than Trump and Biden is Harris up there alongside Pence as the person who has most money staked against her? (I'm not sure what that figure at BF means. Does it mean that if someone wanted to stake £94K on Harris (i.e. basically on Biden falling ill in the ongoing third wave - which may be about to go powerfully convex - and then being removed before whenever BF settle), they would stand to win £94M? That's an awful lotta spondoolas. Surely Harris has the highest actual probability (small though it may be) out of everyone who isn't Biden (or who isn't Biden and Trump, if you must)? Those numbers on the BF screen are ... peculiar.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:


    In the 1990s violent crime fell by 56% in New York city under Giuliani's Mayoralty compared to only 28% across the US as a whole, property crimes fell by 65% in the city but only 26% nationally.

    https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

    New York city was in many parts a violent crime ridden hellhole under his predecessors Mayors Ed Koch and David Dinkins, especially once you got outside the most wealthy bits of Manhattan and towards the Bronx and it was not safe to walk alone at night in many parts, Giuliani changed that

    But the relevant comparator is not the country generally, since big cities experienced far higher falls (from higher peaks) than the rest of the nation. It's other big cities. And the more you look at the numbers, the less important Giuliani's role is. He was inaugurated in 1993, when crime in New York was already dropping dramatically. Its peak year was 1990. And the big increase in police numbers was agreed by his predecessor.

    Once you allow for those factors, New York's performance is about average, or maybe slightly better, but certainly not as good as you make it out to be.
    It was Giuliani's broken windows policy of tackling small crimes hard and three strikes and you are out that made the difference, under Koch and Dinkins his predecessors much of New York city was a crime ridden hellhole, particularly around the Bronx, Giuliani changed all that and enabled the much safer, more tourist friendly city that it is today
    Then why was it dropping dramatically before he took office and why did other cities which did not implement it record similar falls?
    The biggest fall in crime in New York city under any New York Mayor came under Giuliani
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited December 2020

    HYUFD said:

    Concern from a Tory MP at advancing woke at Eton and Cambridge

    https://twitter.com/lucyallan/status/1335704417094524931?s=20

    ... Disband the elite institutions?
    "We had to destroy the independent schools to save them..."

    (I went to a comprehensive, but surely the whole point of independent schools is that, beyond safeguarding, what they do is none of HMG's dammed business?)
    Safeguarding hitting Ampleforth, which Gavin Williamson has suspended entry of new pupils to after an OFSTED report to Charles Moore's disgust
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/04/ampleforth-has-put-death-rowjust-cromwell-did-monasteries/
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755
    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Boris is sui generis and can be evaluated when he leaves office.

    Cameron did one thing that was really bad.

    Every single thing BoZo has touched has been an epic fuckup.

    There is no comparison.
    Cameron almost lost Scotland, and did lose Europe. Cameron also gave us the disastrous NHS reorganisation under Lansley, and Universal Credit, Plan A austerity that choked off the recovery, student finance, or almost anything he touched. Worst of all was his attempted gerrymandering.

    Boris is anti-austerity but even more anti-democracy. On Brexit and the pandemic, it is too early to tell though I gather from pb that the judge is eyeing his black cap.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If we crash out with no deal and BoZo is defenestrated by irate backbenchers, what price Mrs May stepping up as caretaker for the rejoin negotiations?

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership, that rules out Remainers Hunt and May again while Sunak backed Leave, but also someone prepared to compromise with the EU, Sunak also voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement 3 times unlike Boris and Raab who only voted for it on MV3 and Patel who never voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement once
    What's wrong with Truss? Sounds like a surgical appliance which is what the country will feel like it needs. Excellent leaver and despiser of the poor credentials. Only very limited shagging antics compared to Johnson's palmarès. What's not to like?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    But, according to this
    https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/exports-by-country

    US buys 23% of EU exports with $494bn worth (€408bn), so the same as UK, which would mean about 19% of UK included total.
    Edit: Deleted, I was writing nonsense.
    Steady on.....it might catch on!
    Too late - I've been doing it for years!
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If we crash out with no deal and BoZo is defenestrated by irate backbenchers, what price Mrs May stepping up as caretaker for the rejoin negotiations?

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership, that rules out Remainers Hunt and May again while Sunak backed Leave, but also someone prepared to compromise with the EU, Sunak also voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement 3 times unlike Boris and Raab who only voted for it on MV3 and Patel who never voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement once
    But if No Deal happens and is a disaster, how does Sunak survive? He's a senior member (not Deputy PM, but heir apparent) of a government whose key policy has (in this please-god-no scenario) gone up in flames.

    What is his answer to the "Why did back this policy? What did you know? Why didn't you speak out?" questions? Because he would need damn good ones, and I can't begin to discern them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Cameron almost lost Scotland, and did lose Europe.

    BoZo has lost Scotland, and is determined to lose Europe
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,224
    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Tariffs and paperwork would have some impact on exports and imports but I think that this is much exaggerated. In most cases things and services will be slightly more expensive and have less of a competitive advantage with the rest of the world. Which would no doubt reduce trade at the margins but I honestly doubt it will prove more than 5%, possibly less in the short term.

    None of this makes this desirable of course and it is in our and the EU's interest to reduce any additional friction to the minimum that can be agreed. I would expect us to have a rough and ready deal this week and then look to fine tune some parts of our trading relationship over the next several years.
    Yep, of course the raw % of trade potentially impacted is not that important - it depends to what extent the trade is impacted. There will be some things that buyers within the EU can easily source from another EU country (say, most crops we export), some things they'll still get mainly from UK even with delays, tariffs (e.g whisky) and a whole range of things in between, on both sides. Costs and opportunities.

    FWIW, I agree on a deal, as @kinabalu has argued for a long time, failing to do a deal is so daft, on both sides, that it's not in anyone's interests. No deal would be a chunk of pain at least short term pain on both sides and that's not going to be popular and politicians don't generally do deliberately unpopular things. My fear has been that our side might just be crazy enough to do it, although I'm optimistic that the pig's lipstick colour is being chosen as we discuss.
    In particular, Ireland. That has not been towed away and relocated off the coast of Japan. No deal leads to a world of political pain - for Johnson - around the GFA. It's just not an option imo. I will be flabbergasted if it happens. Flabbergasted. Super word, that. Sounds just like what it describes.
  • Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    The only person who has come out well from this is David Frost, who has proved to be a good negotiator.

    He may have got medieval with Barnier, and given him some langue d'oïl
    MB is from Rhône-Alpes so it would have to be langue d'oc.
    Maybe even Savoyard, given he's from Albertville in Savoie.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited December 2020
    Hippo said:

    Couple of things on the US presidentials...

    The 8 Dec "safe harbour" is for state courts only, so I won't be surprised if BF don't settle tomorrow.

    And why of the "candidates" other than Trump and Biden is Harris up there alongside Pence as the person who has most money staked against her? (I'm not sure what that figure at BF means. Does it mean that if someone wanted to stake £94K on Harris (i.e. basically on Biden falling ill in the ongoing third wave - which may be about to go powerfully convex - and then being removed before whenever BF settle), they would stand to win £94M? That's an awful lotta spondoolas. Surely Harris has the highest actual probability (small though it may be) out of everyone who isn't Biden (or who isn't Biden and Trump, if you must)? Those numbers on the BF screen are ... peculiar.

    Welcome new person.

    I think 14/15 Dec is looking very likely for BF settlement.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".

    Let us dine on Sovereignty this eve...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:


    In the 1990s violent crime fell by 56% in New York city under Giuliani's Mayoralty compared to only 28% across the US as a whole, property crimes fell by 65% in the city but only 26% nationally.

    https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

    New York city was in many parts a violent crime ridden hellhole under his predecessors Mayors Ed Koch and David Dinkins, especially once you got outside the most wealthy bits of Manhattan and towards the Bronx and it was not safe to walk alone at night in many parts, Giuliani changed that

    But the relevant comparator is not the country generally, since big cities experienced far higher falls (from higher peaks) than the rest of the nation. It's other big cities. And the more you look at the numbers, the less important Giuliani's role is. He was inaugurated in 1993, when crime in New York was already dropping dramatically. Its peak year was 1990. And the big increase in police numbers was agreed by his predecessor.

    Once you allow for those factors, New York's performance is about average, or maybe slightly better, but certainly not as good as you make it out to be.
    It was Giuliani's broken windows policy of tackling small crimes hard and three strikes and you are out that made the difference, under Koch and Dinkins his predecessors much of New York city was a crime ridden hellhole, particularly around the Bronx, Giuliani changed all that and enabled the much safer, more tourist friendly city that it is today
    Then why was it dropping dramatically before he took office and why did other cities which did not implement it record similar falls?
    The biggest fall in crime in New York city under any New York Mayor came under Giuliani
    Of course, because he had eight years while Dinkins had four. But, insofar as any mayors are responsible, Dinkins laid the groundwork and Giuliani didn't screw it up and took the credit. In fact, other factors such as a break in the crack epidemic, demographic changes and Dinkins's big increase in policy numbers (which Giuliani continued) were almost certainly more important.

    Incidentally, New York City did not enact a three strikes and you're out law under Giuliani, for two very good reasons. Firstly, it would have been a state, not a city, law. Secondly, New York already had a habitual offenders statute dating from the 18th century, so it wouldn't have been necessary anyway.

    And you haven't answered my question about why other big American cities recorded similar falls? New York gets most attention because it is the biggest and most international US city, but San Francisco didn't implement a broken windows policy and recorded falls in crime as great as or greater than New York's in the 90s.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Tariffs and paperwork would have some impact on exports and imports but I think that this is much exaggerated. In most cases things and services will be slightly more expensive and have less of a competitive advantage with the rest of the world. Which would no doubt reduce trade at the margins but I honestly doubt it will prove more than 5%, possibly less in the short term.

    None of this makes this desirable of course and it is in our and the EU's interest to reduce any additional friction to the minimum that can be agreed. I would expect us to have a rough and ready deal this week and then look to fine tune some parts of our trading relationship over the next several years.
    Yep, of course the raw % of trade potentially impacted is not that important - it depends to what extent the trade is impacted. There will be some things that buyers within the EU can easily source from another EU country (say, most crops we export), some things they'll still get mainly from UK even with delays, tariffs (e.g whisky) and a whole range of things in between, on both sides. Costs and opportunities.

    FWIW, I agree on a deal, as @kinabalu has argued for a long time, failing to do a deal is so daft, on both sides, that it's not in anyone's interests. No deal would be a chunk of pain at least short term pain on both sides and that's not going to be popular and politicians don't generally do deliberately unpopular things. My fear has been that our side might just be crazy enough to do it, although I'm optimistic that the pig's lipstick colour is being chosen as we discuss.
    Unlike a lot of leavers I am pretty relaxed about the content of the deal. More interesting will be the deal after that and the one after that. What will be the direction of travel, something pretty close to EEA or something more distant?
    The first deal will set the tone in my view. If either side feels screwed over then the direction of travel may well be set.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,755

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If we crash out with no deal and BoZo is defenestrated by irate backbenchers, what price Mrs May stepping up as caretaker for the rejoin negotiations?

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership, that rules out Remainers Hunt and May again while Sunak backed Leave, but also someone prepared to compromise with the EU, Sunak also voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement 3 times unlike Boris and Raab who only voted for it on MV3 and Patel who never voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement once
    But if No Deal happens and is a disaster, how does Sunak survive? He's a senior member (not Deputy PM, but heir apparent) of a government whose key policy has (in this please-god-no scenario) gone up in flames.

    What is his answer to the "Why did back this policy? What did you know? Why didn't you speak out?" questions? Because he would need damn good ones, and I can't begin to discern them.
    I'm not sure he'd be toast. The same questions could be levelled at Starmer (albeit that he didn't actually have to back any policies being carried out, just put in the manifesto - there is the anti-Semitism issue, but he appears to be forgiven for that due to actions since becoming leader).

    Still, in the event of a disaster, I'd expect either a swivel towards (former) remainers if it was acknowledged to be a mistake (Hunt or someone pushing for a close BINO/EEA type deal) or a doubling down on it just not being done right/hard enough and a Patel-like figure.

    Sunak might still have a chance as a compromise candidate, although I'm not sure what compromise* - a looser FTA where we agree to what the EU suggests but stay a bit more distant than EEA (e.g. no FoM, but we sign up for the LPF rules and nothing much changes on fish).

    *compromise also hasn't been a thing that seems to exist in the Brexit process so far
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    I wonder how much longer they can delay announcing the deal? Talk about ramping up the tension! Fine by me, but not really fair on the vulnerable. John Redwood, for example, is clearly now in a state of utter anguish over fish and might flip before too long.

    #getbrexitdone

    The U.K. was happy to negotiate this stuff years ago, the ‘sequencing’ is entirely down to the EU side.
    And the fact we allowed any "sequencing" is part of the problem here.
    Indeed. Thank Theresa May for that one.
    Truly our worst ever PM.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Boris is sui generis and can be evaluated when he leaves office.
    No he wasn't, Eden, Heath, Callaghan and Brown were worse and that is just since WW2 and before then you had Chamberlain, Balfour, Wellington etc
    Eden was shocking, I'll grant you. Your prejudices are showing with Heath, Callaghan and Brown. Revisionists can make a case for Chamberlain buying time, rearming, and striving to avoid war (and remember that in 1937, the slaughter of the Great War finished just 19 years earlier, well within living memory). Cameron actively made things worse.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
    Nobody is suggesting we wont "manage". Stop moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether any pain in the short, medium, and long term is "worth it".
  • Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    The only person who has come out well from this is David Frost, who has proved to be a good negotiator.

    He may have got medieval with Barnier, and given him some langue d'oïl
    MB is from Rhône-Alpes so it would have to be langue d'oc.
    Maybe even Savoyard, given he's from Albertville in Savoie.
    https://www.magazine-decideurs.com/news/consensus-a-la-savoyarde
    "C'est un Savoyard"
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Scott_xP said:

    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".

    Let us dine on Sovereignty this eve...
    That'll be the "Free from" range (and about as appertising).
  • Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Of course not, it is what you do with it that counts.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
    Nobody is suggesting we wont "manage". Stop moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether any pain in the short, medium, and long term is "worth it".
    You said that people won't be able to pay the mortgage. You shifted the goalposts, not me.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    I wonder how much longer they can delay announcing the deal? Talk about ramping up the tension! Fine by me, but not really fair on the vulnerable. John Redwood, for example, is clearly now in a state of utter anguish over fish and might flip before too long.

    #getbrexitdone

    The U.K. was happy to negotiate this stuff years ago, the ‘sequencing’ is entirely down to the EU side.
    And the fact we allowed any "sequencing" is part of the problem here.
    Indeed. Thank Theresa May for that one.
    Truly our worst ever PM.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Boris is sui generis and can be evaluated when he leaves office.
    No he wasn't, Eden, Heath, Callaghan and Brown were worse and that is just since WW2 and before then you had Chamberlain, Balfour, Wellington etc
    Eden was shocking, I'll grant you. Your prejudices are showing with Heath, Callaghan and Brown. Revisionists can make a case for Chamberlain buying time, rearming, and striving to avoid war (and remember that in 1937, the slaughter of the Great War finished just 19 years earlier, well within living memory). Cameron actively made things worse.
    It matters not - Boris is going to trump them all in the worst ever PM stakes.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited December 2020
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.

    [Edit] They are however exercised about protection. Hence the LPF demands. These protections can most easily be applied by blocking the UK from its markets. The UK has to make a convincing case why they shouldn't do that.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
    Nobody is suggesting we wont "manage". Stop moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether any pain in the short, medium, and long term is "worth it".
    You said that people won't be able to pay the mortgage. You shifted the goalposts, not me.
    If we crash out in 3.5 weeks time and experience severe economic shock, some people may not be able to pay their mortgages for whatever reason.

    No amount of theoretical "freedom" is going to make that feel better.

    That has nothing to do with how the nation will "manage" long term.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    edited December 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If we crash out with no deal and BoZo is defenestrated by irate backbenchers, what price Mrs May stepping up as caretaker for the rejoin negotiations?

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership, that rules out Remainers Hunt and May again while Sunak backed Leave, but also someone prepared to compromise with the EU, Sunak also voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement 3 times unlike Boris and Raab who only voted for it on MV3 and Patel who never voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement once
    What's wrong with Truss? Sounds like a surgical appliance which is what the country will feel like it needs. Excellent leaver and despiser of the poor credentials. Only very limited shagging antics compared to Johnson's palmarès. What's not to like?
    She's easier on the eye, if that is a criterion (admittedly it is not difficult to look better than a mobile haystack).

    Edit: I hasten to add that that is from a purely unisex and non-gendered viewpoint, with a con sideration of the public image projected.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    I have not noticed Boris banning all immigration, he is just introducing a points system, nor is he restoring the death penalty.

    Overseas Aid has also not been scrapped, just reduced to the G7 average
  • MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
    Nobody is suggesting we wont "manage". Stop moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether any pain in the short, medium, and long term is "worth it".
    On what terms though?

    How much do you value your freedom? Your sovereignty? What price would sell your soul for?

    Or is just being able to pay your bills what you care about?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
    Nobody is suggesting we wont "manage". Stop moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether any pain in the short, medium, and long term is "worth it".
    On what terms though?

    How much do you value your freedom? Your sovereignty? What price would sell your soul for?

    Or is just being able to pay your bills what you care about?
    If I cant pay my bills I will be homeless. In that situation I couldn't care less about theoretical "freedom", especially as I didn't feel "unfree" to begin with.

    Your ridiculous libertarian viewpoint comes from a position of immense privilege.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,699
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have not noticed Boris banning all immigration, he is just introducing a points system, nor is he restoring the death penalty
    Have you noticed him making Britain great again?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    FF43 said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.
    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_xP said:
    Always thus with carriers. Ark Royal (R09) was laid down in 1943, paid off in 1979 and spent just 18 years of that period not in dock being fixed.
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have not noticed Boris banning all immigration, he is just introducing a points system, nor is he restoring the death penalty
    Have you noticed him making Britain great again?
    I think he has, however, controlled inflation by means of the money supply and banned the IRA.

    Perhaps he is NF after all.

    or maybe this is a stupid exercise.
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I have not noticed Boris banning all immigration, he is just introducing a points system, nor is he restoring the death penalty
    Not is he scrapping international aid, we will still be world leading international aid donor and top of the class with our generosity.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Always thus with carriers. Ark Royal (R09) was laid down in 1943, paid off in 1979 and spent just 18 years of that period not in dock being fixed.
    My friend in the Navy reckons the Prince of Wales will be sold.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Always thus with carriers. Ark Royal (R09) was laid down in 1943, paid off in 1979 and spent just 18 years of that period not in dock being fixed.
    My friend in the Navy reckons the Prince of Wales will be sold.
    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,699

    FF43 said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.
    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.
    There are over 100 million Russians in Europe.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Always thus with carriers. Ark Royal (R09) was laid down in 1943, paid off in 1979 and spent just 18 years of that period not in dock being fixed.
    My friend in the Navy reckons the Prince of Wales will be sold.
    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?
    Chile?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    The only reason I can see Boris sees a no deal as an option is becuase there's some amazing contingency in place to minimise disruption (I'm really not confident this can be the case...)

    Otherwise, he's taking a massive gamble on peoples jobs, livelihoods and the union. I'm not convinced that's good leadership, and the tories deserved to be punished by voters of choas ensues (particularly during a public health crisis)

    It could also be that he's so deluded as well..
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Carnyx said:



    She's easier on the eye, if that is a criterion (admittedly it is not difficult to look better than a mobile haystack).

    Ok.



  • MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
    Nobody is suggesting we wont "manage". Stop moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether any pain in the short, medium, and long term is "worth it".
    On what terms though?

    How much do you value your freedom? Your sovereignty? What price would sell your soul for?

    Or is just being able to pay your bills what you care about?
    If I cant pay my bills I will be homeless. In that situation I couldn't care less about theoretical "freedom", especially as I didn't feel "unfree" to begin with.

    Your ridiculous libertarian viewpoint comes from a position of immense privilege.

    Level playing field was always going to be the toughest. The EU are requiring the UK to behave as if we have not left the EU. To which the only - and continuing - response is "Fuck off".
    “😭😭😭”
    *Cough*
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited December 2020
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:


    In the 1990s violent crime fell by 56% in New York city under Giuliani's Mayoralty compared to only 28% across the US as a whole, property crimes fell by 65% in the city but only 26% nationally.

    https://www.nber.org/digest/jan03/what-reduced-crime-new-york-city

    New York city was in many parts a violent crime ridden hellhole under his predecessors Mayors Ed Koch and David Dinkins, especially once you got outside the most wealthy bits of Manhattan and towards the Bronx and it was not safe to walk alone at night in many parts, Giuliani changed that

    But the relevant comparator is not the country generally, since big cities experienced far higher falls (from higher peaks) than the rest of the nation. It's other big cities. And the more you look at the numbers, the less important Giuliani's role is. He was inaugurated in 1993, when crime in New York was already dropping dramatically. Its peak year was 1990. And the big increase in police numbers was agreed by his predecessor.

    Once you allow for those factors, New York's performance is about average, or maybe slightly better, but certainly not as good as you make it out to be.
    It was Giuliani's broken windows policy of tackling small crimes hard and three strikes and you are out that made the difference, under Koch and Dinkins his predecessors much of New York city was a crime ridden hellhole, particularly around the Bronx, Giuliani changed all that and enabled the much safer, more tourist friendly city that it is today
    Then why was it dropping dramatically before he took office and why did other cities which did not implement it record similar falls?
    The biggest fall in crime in New York city under any New York Mayor came under Giuliani
    Of course, because he had eight years while Dinkins had four. But, insofar as any mayors are responsible, Dinkins laid the groundwork and Giuliani didn't screw it up and took the credit. In fact, other factors such as a break in the crack epidemic, demographic changes and Dinkins's big increase in policy numbers (which Giuliani continued) were almost certainly more important.

    Incidentally, New York City did not enact a three strikes and you're out law under Giuliani, for two very good reasons. Firstly, it would have been a state, not a city, law. Secondly, New York already had a habitual offenders statute dating from the 18th century, so it wouldn't have been necessary anyway.

    And you haven't answered my question about why other big American cities recorded similar falls? New York gets most attention because it is the biggest and most international US city, but San Francisco didn't implement a broken windows policy and recorded falls in crime as great as or greater than New York's in the 90s.
    Go to San Francisco now and it has more homeless and a higher crime rate than New York city.

    Crime rate in San Francisco 64 per 1000, in New York city only 17.9 per 1000.

    That is because San Francisco has always only elected left liberal Mayors, never a tough on crime Mayor like Giuliani

    https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime#:~:text=With a crime rate of,here is one in 16.

    https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/crime

  • Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    She's easier on the eye, if that is a criterion (admittedly it is not difficult to look better than a mobile haystack).

    Ok.



    Those don't look like scrummaging trousers..
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    She's easier on the eye, if that is a criterion (admittedly it is not difficult to look better than a mobile haystack).

    Ok.



    Er, perhaps not!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    FF43 said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.
    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.
    There are over 100 million Russians in Europe.
    yes I was expecting that and you can argue Turkey too but both are on the periphery with large Asian hinterlands and not Europe in the traditional sense.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,699

    FF43 said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.
    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.
    There are over 100 million Russians in Europe.
    yes I was expecting that and you can argue Turkey too but both are on the periphery with large Asian hinterlands and not Europe in the traditional sense.
    You mean in the Catholic sense?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If we crash out with no deal and BoZo is defenestrated by irate backbenchers, what price Mrs May stepping up as caretaker for the rejoin negotiations?

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership, that rules out Remainers Hunt and May again while Sunak backed Leave, but also someone prepared to compromise with the EU, Sunak also voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement 3 times unlike Boris and Raab who only voted for it on MV3 and Patel who never voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement once
    What's wrong with Truss? Sounds like a surgical appliance which is what the country will feel like it needs. Excellent leaver and despiser of the poor credentials. Only very limited shagging antics compared to Johnson's palmarès. What's not to like?
    Truss backed Remain unlike Sunak
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    If Boris goes after a No Deal Brexit which goes wrong I expect MPs would contrive a Sunak v Hunt final two so no headbanger goes to the membership which Sunak would then win by a landslide.

    As far as Tory members are concerned even if they are down to 1 fishcake a week, British fish of course, they will still say Brexit was worth it and blame any problems on Remoaners
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    She's easier on the eye, if that is a criterion (admittedly it is not difficult to look better than a mobile haystack).

    Ok.



    Ding dong! (In the non- PC 1960s voice of Leslie Phillips).

    There again, the cheese for Japanese cars contra-deal was laughable.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.
    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.
    Ultimately people adapt to the situation, agreed. The UK's destiny is as a somewhat frustrated satellite of the European Union. It's what it will be but we can cope with it.

    Incidentally the previous younger population growth in the UK was due to EU freedom of movement and immigration from Eastern Europe. An irony of Brexit is that the UK is becoming more like the rest of Europe in its arguably problematic respects.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Always thus with carriers. Ark Royal (R09) was laid down in 1943, paid off in 1979 and spent just 18 years of that period not in dock being fixed.
    My friend in the Navy reckons the Prince of Wales will be sold.
    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?
    Chile?
    It'llbe interesting to see what happens with it and whether it gets sold for actual naval use. I did wonder unkindly if it could be used to replace Southsea Pier. It would make up for the UK's criminal failure to preserve any capital ships (other than the nuke sub at Devonport Dockyard).
  • FF43 said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.
    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.
    There are over 100 million Russians in Europe.
    yes I was expecting that and you can argue Turkey too but both are on the periphery with large Asian hinterlands and not Europe in the traditional sense.

    They're also impoverished compared to the UK and have declining demographics, whereas the UK has a growing population and better demographics.

    Quite probable indeed that this century the UK will overtake not just Germany but European Russia too as largest country both with population and economy.

    Far less likely for the UK to overtake European Turkey in population.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:



    Truss backed Remain unlike Sunak

    She's proved adept at pretending it's not a shit show at the fuck factory. Surely that's what counts.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Of course not, it is what you do with it that counts.
    Such as posting 9,800 comments a day on an Internet discussion board?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2020
    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Of course not, it is what you do with it that counts.
    Such as posting 9,800 comments a day on an Internet discussion board?
    Who has done that?

    If you mean me then given my post count I must have only joined five days ago?

    Even HYUFD would have only joined just over a week ago.


  • The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.

    Does that forecast take into account all the EU citizens who will surely go home when they realise how racist this country is, and the well-enough-off EUphiles who will want to resettle and get citizenship somewhere in the EU?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    @Selebian
    4067bn is total trade; imports + exports. Exports were 2132bn in 2019
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/International_trade_in_goods

    We imported €411bn worth from the EU in 2019.

    411/((2132+411) would be 16% of total EU exports
    Ah, appreciated (should have read the link rather than just the google search headline). So, more pain for EU countries than my initial suggestion, but still some way lower than 43%.

    Still, potentially, a huge amount of trade potentially impacted on both sides.
    Of course, quoting percentages of exEU trade does rather miss the point that the EU enables trillions worth of what would otherwise be international trade within the single market. I'm always a little surprised when EUphiles get into percentage dick fights (43% is an amputation, 19% a mere scratch - almost a fifth of all exports is still a LOT) rather than making that point.
    Yes it is a lot but you are also making a rookie mistake. It is 19% for the EU = 27 nations. Individually it is 6-9% per nation vs our 43%.
    To reply to both of you, the more committed Brexiteers seem to struggle to comprehend* that individual country pain is more relevant or that having a large internal market is more relevant. That's why it's sometimes worth pointing out that 20% (or less) is smaller than 43% as otherwise the argument goes that EU exports total to more than ours and so they have more to lose.

    *not directed at @TrèsDifficile, who I think does comprehend this and just pointing out there's also a lot of potential EU pain
    The comment I would make is that EU members with the exception of Ireland don't seem massively exercised about access to the UK market (shorthand: "German car manufacturers", who are notable by their absence). Maybe they should be, but they are not. It reduces UK leverage in negotiations with the EU. Not just these ones. Going forwards too.
    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.
    Ultimately people adapt to the situation, agreed. The UK's destiny is as a somewhat frustrated satellite of the European Union. It's what it will be but we can cope with it.

    Incidentally the previous younger population growth in the UK was due to EU freedom of movement and immigration from Eastern Europe. An irony of Brexit is that the UK is becoming more like the rest of Europe in its arguably problematic respects.
    The UK is too big to be a satellite, a difficult neighbour certainly. As for pop growth, the E European boost certainly shoved things along, but these days most migration growth is non EU.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413



    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.

    Does that forecast take into account all the EU citizens who will surely go home when they realise how racist this country is, and the well-enough-off EUphiles who will want to resettle and get citizenship somewhere in the EU?
    This country is one of the least racist countries on the planet, a point proved repeatedly by surveys.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    I wonder how much longer they can delay announcing the deal? Talk about ramping up the tension! Fine by me, but not really fair on the vulnerable. John Redwood, for example, is clearly now in a state of utter anguish over fish and might flip before too long.

    #getbrexitdone

    The U.K. was happy to negotiate this stuff years ago, the ‘sequencing’ is entirely down to the EU side.
    And the fact we allowed any "sequencing" is part of the problem here.
    Indeed. Thank Theresa May for that one.
    Truly our worst ever PM.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Boris is sui generis and can be evaluated when he leaves office.
    No he wasn't, Eden, Heath, Callaghan and Brown were worse and that is just since WW2 and before then you had Chamberlain, Balfour, Wellington etc
    Eden was shocking, I'll grant you. Your prejudices are showing with Heath, Callaghan and Brown. Revisionists can make a case for Chamberlain buying time, rearming, and striving to avoid war (and remember that in 1937, the slaughter of the Great War finished just 19 years earlier, well within living memory). Cameron actively made things worse.
    It matters not - Boris is going to trump them all in the worst ever PM stakes.
    Like him or not Boris is going to go down in history like Attlee and Thatcher as a PM that transformed the country.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884



    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.

    Does that forecast take into account all the EU citizens who will surely go home when they realise how racist this country is, and the well-enough-off EUphiles who will want to resettle and get citizenship somewhere in the EU?
    This country is one of the least racist countries on the planet, a point proved repeatedly by surveys.
    Is that not really "thinks it is one of ..."?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,699

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    I wonder how much longer they can delay announcing the deal? Talk about ramping up the tension! Fine by me, but not really fair on the vulnerable. John Redwood, for example, is clearly now in a state of utter anguish over fish and might flip before too long.

    #getbrexitdone

    The U.K. was happy to negotiate this stuff years ago, the ‘sequencing’ is entirely down to the EU side.
    And the fact we allowed any "sequencing" is part of the problem here.
    Indeed. Thank Theresa May for that one.
    Truly our worst ever PM.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Boris is sui generis and can be evaluated when he leaves office.
    No he wasn't, Eden, Heath, Callaghan and Brown were worse and that is just since WW2 and before then you had Chamberlain, Balfour, Wellington etc
    Eden was shocking, I'll grant you. Your prejudices are showing with Heath, Callaghan and Brown. Revisionists can make a case for Chamberlain buying time, rearming, and striving to avoid war (and remember that in 1937, the slaughter of the Great War finished just 19 years earlier, well within living memory). Cameron actively made things worse.
    It matters not - Boris is going to trump them all in the worst ever PM stakes.
    Like him or not Boris is going to go down in history like Attlee and Thatcher as a PM that transformed the country.
    The difference is that they transformed it, unintended consequences notwithstanding, in the way they set out to do.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Why do you post tweets like this that are demonstrably nonsense? And do so without comment that they are such? One could easily take it that you believe them.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    I wonder how much longer they can delay announcing the deal? Talk about ramping up the tension! Fine by me, but not really fair on the vulnerable. John Redwood, for example, is clearly now in a state of utter anguish over fish and might flip before too long.

    #getbrexitdone

    The U.K. was happy to negotiate this stuff years ago, the ‘sequencing’ is entirely down to the EU side.
    And the fact we allowed any "sequencing" is part of the problem here.
    Indeed. Thank Theresa May for that one.
    Truly our worst ever PM.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Boris is sui generis and can be evaluated when he leaves office.
    No he wasn't, Eden, Heath, Callaghan and Brown were worse and that is just since WW2 and before then you had Chamberlain, Balfour, Wellington etc
    Eden was shocking, I'll grant you. Your prejudices are showing with Heath, Callaghan and Brown. Revisionists can make a case for Chamberlain buying time, rearming, and striving to avoid war (and remember that in 1937, the slaughter of the Great War finished just 19 years earlier, well within living memory). Cameron actively made things worse.
    It matters not - Boris is going to trump them all in the worst ever PM stakes.
    Like him or not Boris is going to go down in history like Attlee and Thatcher as a PM that transformed the country.
    The difference is that they transformed it, unintended consequences notwithstanding, in the way they set out to do.
    So is Boris.

    You're only objecting because you dislike what he set out to do. Just as people disliked both Thatcher and Attlee.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Carnyx said:



    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.

    Does that forecast take into account all the EU citizens who will surely go home when they realise how racist this country is, and the well-enough-off EUphiles who will want to resettle and get citizenship somewhere in the EU?
    This country is one of the least racist countries on the planet, a point proved repeatedly by surveys.
    Is that not really "thinks it is one of ..."?
    No.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,224

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    Brexit is not a liberation movement fighting for national self-determination. That is a ridiculously precious badging of a project to leave the European single market in order to reduce immigration.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Of course not, it is what you do with it that counts.
    Such as posting 9,800 comments a day on an Internet discussion board?
    Who has done that?

    If you mean me then given my post count I must have only joined five days ago?

    Even HYUFD would have only joined just over a week ago.
    Is it really only 50,000?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited December 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
  • I tried to quote a post earlier and Vanilla told me it was too long with my reply. I cut out the middle and tried to post again, when it did something I've not seen before. It told me I was a couple characters short of a full post, which I found insulting, I had to walk away.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Always thus with carriers. Ark Royal (R09) was laid down in 1943, paid off in 1979 and spent just 18 years of that period not in dock being fixed.
    My friend in the Navy reckons the Prince of Wales will be sold.
    On his own, or as part of a package with Camilla?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Scott_xP said:
    Why do you post tweets like this that are demonstrably nonsense? And do so without comment that they are such? One could easily take it that you believe them.
    Indeed. One would have to be a bit simple to think that cutting aid to 0.5% of GDP - still higher than almost every other country in the world - was equivalent to 'scrapping it'.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
    Australia could afford it and would be capable of operating it but they've got more fucking sense.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
    That's what people forget when they talk about "big boys" looking down their nose at our own country.

    England or the United Kingdom is not only historically a "big boy", it still is today. We are a top tier economic country (G7) and a top tier military nation too (with the USA being sui generis). Which is why we both have and deserve our permanent Security Council status.

    Whether that will continue to be the case in the future depends, but it is still the case today.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
    That's what people forget when they talk about "big boys" looking down their nose at our own country.

    England or the United Kingdom is not only historically a "big boy", it still is today. We are a top tier economic country (G7) and a top tier military nation too (with the USA being sui generis). Which is why we both have and deserve our permanent Security Council status.

    Whether that will continue to be the case in the future depends, but it is still the case today.
    Dear me! My gun's bigger than yours! How provincial can you get.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Says a paper that backed Remain five years ago. Plus ca change.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,224

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    I wonder how much longer they can delay announcing the deal? Talk about ramping up the tension! Fine by me, but not really fair on the vulnerable. John Redwood, for example, is clearly now in a state of utter anguish over fish and might flip before too long.

    #getbrexitdone

    The U.K. was happy to negotiate this stuff years ago, the ‘sequencing’ is entirely down to the EU side.
    And the fact we allowed any "sequencing" is part of the problem here.
    Indeed. Thank Theresa May for that one.
    Truly our worst ever PM.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. Boris is sui generis and can be evaluated when he leaves office.
    No he wasn't, Eden, Heath, Callaghan and Brown were worse and that is just since WW2 and before then you had Chamberlain, Balfour, Wellington etc
    Eden was shocking, I'll grant you. Your prejudices are showing with Heath, Callaghan and Brown. Revisionists can make a case for Chamberlain buying time, rearming, and striving to avoid war (and remember that in 1937, the slaughter of the Great War finished just 19 years earlier, well within living memory). Cameron actively made things worse.
    It matters not - Boris is going to trump them all in the worst ever PM stakes.
    Like him or not Boris is going to go down in history like Attlee and Thatcher as a PM that transformed the country.
    No, because "transformed" has positive connotations. Substitute with the more neutral "changed" and you have a goer. He IS changing us. The change could end up a net positive - it's just about in the realms of possibility - in which case "transformed" can then be used. But not right now. Way too early. And of course the change could very well end up being a net negative. Perhaps even a BIG net negative. That can't be ruled out by any means. It could easily be that Boris Johnson will go down as a man who did enormous damage to the country he professed to love but in reality did not give a flying fuck about. That is what most of the books written 50 years from now might well say. My sense, FWIW, is that they will.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
    The Thai carrier is RW only so it doesn't count.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Plenty of other countries in the world manage both. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible here (or an independent Scotland for that matter).
    Nobody is suggesting we wont "manage". Stop moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether any pain in the short, medium, and long term is "worth it".
    On what terms though?

    How much do you value your freedom? Your sovereignty? What price would sell your soul for?

    Or is just being able to pay your bills what you care about?
    That’s what most people care about



  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Breaking up the UK is not likely to be the sort of 'transformation' BoZo will be lauded for
  • Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
    That's what people forget when they talk about "big boys" looking down their nose at our own country.

    England or the United Kingdom is not only historically a "big boy", it still is today. We are a top tier economic country (G7) and a top tier military nation too (with the USA being sui generis). Which is why we both have and deserve our permanent Security Council status.

    Whether that will continue to be the case in the future depends, but it is still the case today.
    Dear me! My gun's bigger than yours! How provincial can you get.
    That's nonsense of course. As I was saying if you'd bothered to read and understand what I wrote.

    I never said that but, that attitude has been precisely the pathetic dick swinging we have been seeing from Europhiles here thinking the UK must accept EU terms because supposedly the EU has bigger (economic) guns.

    Reality is the UK and the EU are from next year sovereign equals.
  • Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If we crash out with no deal and BoZo is defenestrated by irate backbenchers, what price Mrs May stepping up as caretaker for the rejoin negotiations?

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership, that rules out Remainers Hunt and May again while Sunak backed Leave, but also someone prepared to compromise with the EU, Sunak also voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement 3 times unlike Boris and Raab who only voted for it on MV3 and Patel who never voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement once
    What's wrong with Truss? Sounds like a surgical appliance which is what the country will feel like it needs. Excellent leaver and despiser of the poor credentials. Only very limited shagging antics compared to Johnson's palmarès. What's not to like?
    She's easier on the eye, if that is a criterion (admittedly it is not difficult to look better than a mobile haystack).

    Edit: I hasten to add that that is from a purely unisex and non-gendered viewpoint, with a con sideration of the public image projected.
    No need for such delicacy, the noted lesbian newt painter has already classified her as MILFy (though that certainly proved the tastes of lesbian newt painters are not mine).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking up the UK is not likely to be the sort of 'transformation' BoZo will be lauded for

    Well Boris wanted to remembered and he definitely will be.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Of course not, it is what you do with it that counts.
    Such as posting 9,800 comments a day on an Internet discussion board?
    Who has done that?

    If you mean me then given my post count I must have only joined five days ago?

    Even HYUFD would have only joined just over a week ago.
    Is it really only 50,000?
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we go to No Deal which ends up a disaster there is no alternative but Sunak.

    The new leader would still have to be a Leaver to appease the membership

    If it's a disaster, the membership are going to be the ones clamouring for blood.

    The "Brexit would have been great if only someone else delivered it" line won't work after BoZo crashes and burns.

    Only a total repudiation of Brexit and all its works will do
    You're in cloud cuckoo land.

    Independence can never be a bad idea. Countries all over the globe are sovereign.

    If things go wrong then we can change leadership, there's no need whatsoever to repudiate freedom.
    You can't pay a mortgage with "freedom".
    Of course not, it is what you do with it that counts.
    Such as posting 9,800 comments a day on an Internet discussion board?
    Who has done that?

    If you mean me then given my post count I must have only joined five days ago?

    Even HYUFD would have only joined just over a week ago.
    Is it really only 50,000?
    However many as most are the same it’s too many
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
    That's what people forget when they talk about "big boys" looking down their nose at our own country.

    England or the United Kingdom is not only historically a "big boy", it still is today. We are a top tier economic country (G7) and a top tier military nation too (with the USA being sui generis). Which is why we both have and deserve our permanent Security Council status.

    Whether that will continue to be the case in the future depends, but it is still the case today.
    Dear me! My gun's bigger than yours! How provincial can you get.
    That's nonsense of course. As I was saying if you'd bothered to read and understand what I wrote.

    I never said that but, that attitude has been precisely the pathetic dick swinging we have been seeing from Europhiles here thinking the UK must accept EU terms because supposedly the EU has bigger (economic) guns.

    Reality is the UK and the EU are from next year sovereign equals.
    And the EU are using their sovereignty to impose red lines which you have been constantly whinging about.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,699

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:



    To the Chinese? Who else woudl want it? The Indians or Japanese?

    Not many navies can handle it and it's very big and very complex. Even in the RN the QE or the PoW cannot go anywhere without 2-300 civvie contractors to keep things like HMWHS functional. Quite how that will be resolved if they ever have to go to war remains to be seen.

    So it needs a very large and very technically capable navy to operate it. Japan and South Korea could both do it but it doesn't fit with their strategic doctrine so if it is going to be sold India is the only realistic prospect. The Baku/Vikramaditya fiasco proves they'll buy fucking anything if the bribes can be targeted to the right spot.

    I think the RN will keep it and use it as a ridiculously large and expensive LPH.
    Only 8 other countries beyond ourselves even have an aircraft carrier, the US, France, China, Russia, Spain, Thailand , Italy and India so there are indeed only a few navies which could accomodate it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers
    That's what people forget when they talk about "big boys" looking down their nose at our own country.

    England or the United Kingdom is not only historically a "big boy", it still is today. We are a top tier economic country (G7) and a top tier military nation too (with the USA being sui generis). Which is why we both have and deserve our permanent Security Council status.

    Whether that will continue to be the case in the future depends, but it is still the case today.
    Dear me! My gun's bigger than yours! How provincial can you get.
    That's nonsense of course. As I was saying if you'd bothered to read and understand what I wrote.

    I never said that but, that attitude has been precisely the pathetic dick swinging we have been seeing from Europhiles here thinking the UK must accept EU terms because supposedly the EU has bigger (economic) guns.

    Reality is the UK and the EU are from next year sovereign equals.
    Presumably you think that makes France a sovereign inferior?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,224
    edited December 2020



    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.

    Does that forecast take into account all the EU citizens who will surely go home when they realise how racist this country is, and the well-enough-off EUphiles who will want to resettle and get citizenship somewhere in the EU?
    This country is one of the least racist countries on the planet, a point proved repeatedly by surveys.
    Q1, How racist are you?

    A. Ooo very.
    B. A little bit.
    C. Not at all!

    Q2, Did you answer Q1 honestly?

    A. No.
    B. No comment.
    C Yes!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited December 2020
    kinabalu said:



    The continental press hardly mentions Brexit these days, its a fascination only for sulking remainers. Really its just a bore now. All the countries will survive and move on.

    Interest in the UK will probably continue as we are forecast to have the largest population and eventually economy in Europe in this century. This is in contrast to a Europe which will see a population decline and in some countries a crash.

    The current round of bed wetting is simply that.

    Does that forecast take into account all the EU citizens who will surely go home when they realise how racist this country is, and the well-enough-off EUphiles who will want to resettle and get citizenship somewhere in the EU?
    This country is one of the least racist countries on the planet, a point proved repeatedly by surveys.
    Q1, How racist are you?

    A. Ooo very.
    B. A little bit.
    C. Not at all!

    Q2, Did you answer Q1 honestly?

    A. No.
    B. No comment.
    C Yes!
    Nah I think it's true that Britain is on the whole much less racist than a majority of countries in the world.

    That doesn't mean there's not work still to be done.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking up the UK is not likely to be the sort of 'transformation' BoZo will be lauded for

    He is not going to break up the UK, hence he is passing the internal markets bill and will urge a Unionist boycott of and not recognise the result of any indyref2 Sturgeon holds even if she wins a majority next year as long as he remains PM
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking up the UK is not likely to be the sort of 'transformation' BoZo will be lauded for

    He is not going to break up the UK, hence he is passing the internal markets bill and will ban indyref2 as long as he remains PM
    Him and your party will however likely go down in history as the CAUSE of the breakup of the UK.

    Good job guys.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Absolutely. No Deal would be one of the greatest failures of political statecraft in modern British history. Boris, and the rest of his Cabinet, would have no option but to resign.
This discussion has been closed.