Lockdownsceptics has a letter from a GP who says, of the vaccine:
"Is it also worth noting that it is only temporary authorisation that has been granted – the vaccine does not yet have marketing authorisation in the UK. This effectively means it is “unlicensed” and as such the prescriber has a duty to explain this to the patient. In usual practice this means that the liability in case of adverse effects lies with the prescriber, not with the pharmaceutical company."
Less of a worry if it is within the Vaccine Damage Payments scheme (which I think it is).
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
You're remembering uncharacteristically poorly here. The push for a second referendum began after May's infamous "red lines" began to raise the prospect of no deal, which she then sought to use, and not at all before.
Utter, provable bollocks. Here is a senior Labour figure calling for a 2nd referendum on.... Sunday June 26, 2016
That's, er, FOUR DAYS after the first referendum. And it already contained all the classic elements of the genre
"The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament."
With their crass, self-regarding stupidity, Remainers like Lammy immediately made Leavers into hostile enemies, afraid of seeing their vote completely ignored. FOUR DAYS AFTER THE FIRST VOTE.
The petition for a 2nd referendum - signed by millions - was started about a week after the first referendum
Exactly. The drive to annul the vote started almost immediately after the result was in....
Remember the Mortimer golden rule of Brexit: anything that cheers remainers ends up, eventually, undermining their cause:
'How about EEA/EFTA', 'Lets stay in the Single Market and Customs Union', 'OK, just the customs Union', Gina Miller lawsuit, everything Letwin and Grieve touched, Boris Johnson's resignation, 'We really ought to have a second referendum', changing HoC standing orders, overturning the prorogation, blocking the election, indicative votes, people's vote, revoke, Jo Swinson Next PM, Bercow....
Every single one forced the argument towards a harder Brexit.
Rubbish. Johnson has had an 80 seat majority for a year now to achieve a deal. He has failed to do so. He is the face of Brexit, always has been, and with the majority to achieve whatever he wanted he has still failed to reach a deal. Remainers lost, finally, in 2019. We got beat. The ball has been in your court ever since. You have failed to play it. You can't blame us for a fiasco that is taking place on your watch. This is yours, and yours alone.
Literally none of what you have written makes any of what I wrote rubbish...
I totally agree that the 2019 election was the final victory for the Leave faction. I suspect we'll have a bit of turbulence either way - deal or no deal - but given we very rarely change course from democratically made decisions in this country, I expect whatever happens to stick.
I'd be very surprised if Johnson actively chooses no deal, although events can sometimes start to derail under their own steam, obviously. His whole life has been both about avoiding conflict, in the slightly more generous interpretation, and avoiding responsibility, in the more critical one. No deal means both immediately greater conflict and immediately greater responsibility.
His desire for power is greater than his desire to avoid conflict. He thinks No Deal will shore up his base. I'm not convinced he's thought the reprecussions through.
I think his lust for power, as a psychoanalyst would have it, is the most regressed and undifferentiated part of him - very unreflective and immediate. Whenever he ponders anything more properly for any length of time, he always seems to pick the more avoidant path. He would be breaking the habit of a lifetime here by going for the most divisive option of something he's had four years to think about, i think , but who knows.
Doesn't he tend to agree with the last person in the room? Don't know who that would be this time. Might be the tea lady.
Would be fascinated to see the movement. Locally it feels like we're losing support on our right flank because of a)restrictions, lockdowns etc and b) this obsession with greenie stuff and bans...
Confirmation bias.
Losing support on your right flank to... er, Labour? Right.
Thats why I'd love to see the actual churn, not the headline figures.
Where do you think your lost support on the right flank might have gone to?
(Hint: UKIP has risen from 2.46% to 2.55% since the previous Opinium on 19/11; the Brexit Party is unchanged on 0%.)
None of the above.
When there is a vaguely competent opposition, Tories tend to lose when we needlessly tack for the centre, because we lose our right flank to the 'sitting at home not voting till we have proper Tory policy' party.
Not true in 1950,1955, 1959, 1970, 1992, 2010, 2015 and 2017 all of which were won by the Tories on a relatively centrist platform, nor true in 2001 and 2005 when the Tories lost on a rightwing platform.
Maybe true in 1997 when some Tories went Referendum Party but Major would have lost anyway even with them, possibly also true in 1974 when Heath lost due to Tories staying home but that was only by a tiny margin
I wouldn’t have said they were ‘open minded and decent.’ I’ve neither forgotten nor forgiven their rampages through Cardiff on match days fuelled by anti-Welsh xenophobia.
Cardiff City v Millwall at Ninian Park? Not a pretty sight, I’m sure.
Nearly as bad as when Scotland's finest visited Manchester in 2008.
You mean the side that wants to play in the English Premier League?
There's a reason why keep on saying No!
But whether they play in the EPL or the SPL they'll always be from Scotland, just like their fans.
What's that reason, please? I haven't been following that side of life (in more senses than one).
There's many reasons, like it would mean two PL clubs making way for the Old Firm, which won't happen, but the primary reason was that PL is based on selling a massively family friendly product but up to quite recent a successful Old Firm derby was when the police didn't have to open a murder inquiry.
There'd be too much risk to the PL brand if that violence was imported.
Just imagine on the last day of the season, Celtic are facing relegation, and the other side facing relegation had to play Rangers on the last day of the season, and Rangers lost (heavily).
That's a recipe for disaster.
PL crapping themselves that they would get gubbed is more like it.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
You're remembering uncharacteristically poorly here. The push for a second referendum began after May's infamous "red lines" began to raise the prospect of no deal, which she then sought to use, and not at all before.
Utter, provable bollocks. Here is a senior Labour figure calling for a 2nd referendum on.... Sunday June 26, 2016
That's, er, FOUR DAYS after the first referendum. And it already contained all the classic elements of the genre
"The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament."
With their crass, self-regarding stupidity, Remainers like Lammy immediately made Leavers into hostile enemies, afraid of seeing their vote completely ignored. FOUR DAYS AFTER THE FIRST VOTE.
The petition for a 2nd referendum - signed by millions - was started about a week after the first referendum
It was started, but it had zero momentum or coverage ; just check back through the coverage. That all began in late 2017, as I said.
Four million people signed the 2nd referendum petition, in the first three weeks after the vote, you ludicrous moron
Rubbish, and that kind of abusiveness should get you banned.
You made a ludicrous and clearly moronic statement. You claimed that the movement towards a 2nd vote had zero coverage and momentum until about late 2017
I have just shown you a petition signed by FOUR MILLION people demanding a 2nd vote, in the immediate weeks after the vote in July 2016. It's quite an achievement to get FOUR MILLION signatories on a petition, in about a month, with "zero coverage" and "no momentum"
You're just wrong. You are, also, embarrassingly wrong. And now you are embarrassed. My advice is to choose another topic to debate.
There's nothing to be embarassed about, because you're wrong ; you should be embarassed about your moments of rudeness, though.
2.5 million people, not four, signed a pre-set up running and already petition in the first four weeks, and unlike in the period from late 2017-18 onwards, this was considered important by virtually no one in the political class or media of the time. All the momentum picked up after the conservative party and government botched any prospect of a soft Brexit and put patching up its own internal divisions ahead of bringing the country along in a moderate consensus, as in some of your more honest moments you've admitted yourself.
Here's the history of that petition
"A House of Commons spokeswoman said the petition was created on 24 May. There were 22 signatures on it at the time the referendum result was announced."
22 people signed it
Within a fortnight of the result?
"More than 2.5 million people have signed a petition calling for a second EU referendum, after the vote to leave.
It has more signatures than any other on the parliamentary website and as it has passed 100,000, Parliament will consider it for a debate."
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
If not remainers, blame the idiots who pushed for a second referendum. Whole thing could have been very different with comprise but we are where we are because of all sides
No, non, nein, nunca!
Deal or no deal, this is not the "fault" of any brand of former Remainer. Leave belongs to the Brexiteers- own it and wear it with pride!
Undeniable.
Tories call referendum. Tories back leave and vote leave. They win. Tory government agrees deal to leave. Tories split rather than pass it. Tories form new government and agree another deal. Tories pass it this time. Tories now negotiating the terms.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
Friend of mine says his local is doing "beans on toast" for 99p, and you can sit and take hours eating it, savouring every bean with your many many pints
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
The Tories got their leaders the wrong way round. Johnson to negotiate and sell a climbdown (sensible deal) in 2015-6, which he would have had the authority and charisma to do before positions hardened, then waltz off into the sunset. Then May to deal with Covid. With care, diligence and attention to detail.
We’d all have loved seeing the ‘Stay Home’ vans going up and down the high street...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
Ending the psychodrama is the least worst outcome at this point.
Sir Keir Starmer is competent at being Leader of the Opposition. That is a move onwards from Corbyn, who wasn't even that.
It doesn't make him competent as a Prime Minister.
Like Brexit, you don't know if something or someone is going to work until you try it. Johnson is very good at winning elections. Doesn't make him a good PM (or indeed Mayor of London).
Lockdownsceptics has a letter from a GP who says, of the vaccine:
"Is it also worth noting that it is only temporary authorisation that has been granted – the vaccine does not yet have marketing authorisation in the UK. This effectively means it is “unlicensed” and as such the prescriber has a duty to explain this to the patient. In usual practice this means that the liability in case of adverse effects lies with the prescriber, not with the pharmaceutical company."
Yes, that is correct. Emergency authorisation is not a product licence. Until the EMA licences it, or we Brexit, that is the legal position.
Prescribing unlicensed drugs is quite common though.
Details of the temporary authorization with full conditions are on the government website:
What is the NYT's obsession with how shit Britain supposedly is?
I do actually agree with the costly track and trace - the trace element seems frankly pointless. Tell those who tested positive to stay indoors, and contact those who they've been in close quarters with a long period of time... Encourage them to do so.
Our attempts at state organised coercion have been badly implemented and poorly thought through. This country does best when it encourages people to do what is best for themselves and others, not threatens a 6.4k fine for not wearing a mask....
My concern with the kneeling before every game is what is it to represent? Anti racism? Football already has the kick it out programme. It seems to specifically relate to police killings of black men in the United States. Is that such a major issue (particularly considering everything we're dealing with right now) that it should be THE cause that football attaches itself to? In my opinion no.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
Maybe some of the booers are racist . maybe some are just sick to death of virtue signalling when they are supposed to be at a sport event .Dion Dublin is wrong to say they people are racists if they don't support taking a knee and BLM. Keep politics out of sport used to be an accepted mantra (and a sensible one)
Actively booing taking a knee likely to be strongly correlated to racism. Difficult to think otherwise.
A lot more people are opposed to virtue signalling than are racist so maybe it is not that difficult to think
I can buy that. But few of those would start booing.
I can only imagine that those who believe that virtue signalling is a greater problem that racism have had a very different experience of life in the UK than I've had. Frankly the mind boggles.
Yes it's odd to get more exercised by virtue signalling than by racism. Many seem to though. Does this mean they are themselves more than a little racist? No. But it does point to that distinct possibility. That's a fair way to express it imo.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
Yes they are. I am as critical as any of here of the response, but it isn't true to say everything has been a shit show. Some things went so smoothly they got virtually no coverage at all or ludrious criticism e.g. food boxes worked basically perfectly, other than absolutely edge cases and some people saying but I don't like anything that comes in the boxes as I only eat chips.
My elderly parents got the box, and it was seemless, always came bascially on time and althiugh the food wasn't super exciting, it was perfectly adequate. If millions of oldies had starved to death during lockdown we definitely would have never heard the end of it.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
You're remembering uncharacteristically poorly here. The push for a second referendum began after May's infamous "red lines" began to raise the prospect of no deal, which she then sought to use, and not at all before.
Utter, provable bollocks. Here is a senior Labour figure calling for a 2nd referendum on.... Sunday June 26, 2016
That's, er, FOUR DAYS after the first referendum. And it already contained all the classic elements of the genre
"The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament."
With their crass, self-regarding stupidity, Remainers like Lammy immediately made Leavers into hostile enemies, afraid of seeing their vote completely ignored. FOUR DAYS AFTER THE FIRST VOTE.
The petition for a 2nd referendum - signed by millions - was started about a week after the first referendum
It was started, but it had zero momentum or coverage ; just check back through the coverage. That all began in late 2017, as I said.
Four million people signed the 2nd referendum petition, in the first three weeks after the vote, you ludicrous moron
Rubbish, and that kind of abusiveness should get you banned.
You made a ludicrous and clearly moronic statement. You claimed that the movement towards a 2nd vote had zero coverage and momentum until about late 2017
I have just shown you a petition signed by FOUR MILLION people demanding a 2nd vote, in the immediate weeks after the vote in July 2016. It's quite an achievement to get FOUR MILLION signatories on a petition, in about a month, with "zero coverage" and "no momentum"
You're just wrong. You are, also, embarrassingly wrong. And now you are embarrassed. My advice is to choose another topic to debate.
There's nothing to be embarassed about, because you're wrong ; you should be embarassed about your moments of rudeness, though.
2.5 million people, not four, signed a pre-set up running and already petition in the first four weeks, and unlike in the period from late 2017-18 onwards, this was considered important by virtually no one in the political class or media of the time. All the momentum picked up after the conservative party and government botched any prospect of a soft Brexit and put patching up its own internal divisions ahead of bringing the country along in a moderate consensus, as in some of your more honest moments you've admitted yourself.
Here's the history of that petition
"A House of Commons spokeswoman said the petition was created on 24 May. There were 22 signatures on it at the time the referendum result was announced."
22 people signed it
Within a fortnight of the result?
"More than 2.5 million people have signed a petition calling for a second EU referendum, after the vote to leave.
It has more signatures than any other on the parliamentary website and as it has passed 100,000, Parliament will consider it for a debate."
This is all ancient history. The face of the Brexit movement became PM a year ago with an 80 seat majority and there have been no People's Marches ever since. If he had really wanted a deal he would have got one. Johnson is supposed to be good at persuading people of things. He hasn't done much of that this year - either convincing his own side, the EU, or us soundly beaten remainers - not that he had to bother with us, he did have to do some selling to the first two. He hasn't bothered even trying.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
Though one of the reasons psychodramas are so horrible is that it takes a lot to push them out of equilibrium.
The EU will let this run (for the cheap cheap rate of £30 million a day), and Boris won't gamble until it's a sure bet.
Friend of mine says his local is doing "beans on toast" for 99p, and you can sit and take hours eating it, savouring every bean with your many many pints
If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
If Nissan close the Sunderland plant because of No Deal, hoe exactly are the workers supposed to "knuckle down" ?
When the fishing fleets are layed up because they can't sell their catch, what does "knuckle down" look like"
If a vaccine delivery is delayed by Brexit, how does "knuckling down" help the grieving families?
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
The anti-Britain stuff began under his watch. Some of it was insanely warped. The aftershocks continue (and yes for some Americans Brexit = Trump and must be seen as equally evil)
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
You're remembering uncharacteristically poorly here. The push for a second referendum began after May's infamous "red lines" began to raise the prospect of no deal, which she then sought to use, and not at all before.
Utter, provable bollocks. Here is a senior Labour figure calling for a 2nd referendum on.... Sunday June 26, 2016
That's, er, FOUR DAYS after the first referendum. And it already contained all the classic elements of the genre
"The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament."
With their crass, self-regarding stupidity, Remainers like Lammy immediately made Leavers into hostile enemies, afraid of seeing their vote completely ignored. FOUR DAYS AFTER THE FIRST VOTE.
The petition for a 2nd referendum - signed by millions - was started about a week after the first referendum
The anti-Britain stuff began under his watch. Some of it was insanely warped. The aftershocks continue (and yes for some Americans Brexit = Trump and must be seen as equally evil)
Arhhh the man who billed us for a private jet to get him home from holidays when at the BBC.
If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
If Nissan close the Sunderland plant because of No Deal, hoe exactly are the workers supposed to "knuckle down" ?
When the fishing fleets are layed up because they can't sell their catch, what does "knuckle down" look like"
If a vaccine delivery is delayed by Brexit, how does "knuckling down" help the grieving families?
BoZo's jingositic schtick won't fly
I also see he's saying "Great Britain" not the United Kingdom. Tough shit, NI.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
Bollocks was it. It was May's failure to try and build a consensus that poisoned the debate, well before any talk of a 2nd referendum and "revoke". Brexit means Brexit.
It was both. TMay was a catastrophe with her red lines, but so was the clamour for a "2nd referendum" which came soon after the result.
I have just read Sasha Swire's diverting Diary of a Tory MP's Wife
She reveals that at one point David Cameron was supporting a 2nd referendum. He wanted to annul the result of his own referendum, before it had even be enacted, and have a new one, hoping to overturn democracy.
I find that extraordinary. The prime minister who called the referendum wanted to ignore the same vote he called, and run it again, because he didn't like the result. How does that make him any different from Trump wanting to upend the US Election?
Cameron will not come out well in the history books.
Cameron did not come out well in his own history book. A terribly dull read.
It must hurt to sit in that shepherd's hut, mulling over that he could have told the EU to "give me a meaningful deal I can sell, or fuck off and have me campaign to Leave". OK, he was surrounded by a coterie of EU-flunkies in our civil service and diplomatic service telling him nothing was achievable. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he could have stood back, grown a spine and fought - hard.
If he had campaigned to Leave, he would have won by at least 60-40. The EU would have seen that we were going, there was no possibility of us sliding into a second referendum - and overturning our decision. And then we might have got a decent and rapid divorce settlement.
He would have lost Osborne in the process of going for Leave, but he would probably still be PM if he had wanted, implementing his own distinct brand of socially liberal Conservatism. More importantly, he could probably have overseen a transition to a decent working relationship between the UK and the EU.
Instead, he will be remembered as the guy who is ultimately responsible for poisoned UK-EU relations - and has probably hastened the end of the UK by decades. That is one shit legacy.
That overlooks the rather significant point that he thought leaving the EU would be a very bad thing indeed.
Quite why he wanted to lead a party, which contained a not insignificant number of members who wanted to leave the EU, is beyond me.
For 5 out of 6 years Cameron was PM he led a coalition government with the LDs, it was only after the Tories won a majority in 2015 it went wrong for him and he was out of No 10 a year later, in retrospect for Cameron at least another hung parliament in 2015 with the Tories largest party and the LDs holding more of their South West seats so Clegg remained Deputy PM and without requiring an EU referendum as the Tory manifesto promised if they had won a majority would have been better for him.
Indeed Cameron might only have stepped down as PM and then handed over to Osborne or May this year after 10 years as PM and in the Thatcher and Blair league rather than the second rank down he ended up with
Yes, Cameron’s first big mistake was going back on the private undertakings he had given Clegg about how the Tories would fight the AV referendum.
If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
If Nissan close the Sunderland plant because of No Deal, hoe exactly are the workers supposed to "knuckle down" ?
When the fishing fleets are layed up because they can't sell their catch, what does "knuckle down" look like"
If a vaccine delivery is delayed by Brexit, how does "knuckling down" help the grieving families?
BoZo's jingositic schtick won't fly
You may be right. No Deal (if it happens) may be total apocalypse; But if it is not, what then?
Friend of mine says his local is doing "beans on toast" for 99p, and you can sit and take hours eating it, savouring every bean with your many many pints
As predicted:
"Is your plate finished?"
"No....."
What is the rationale of substantial meals in pubs? Is HMG trying to limit the number inside (to the number of seats) or time spent or amount drunk? And whatever it is, why not limit that thing directly?
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
Why "scant"? Look at the USA, and look again when the bulk of the Thanksgiving infections start coming through in the middle of next week. Look at Quebec and Manitoba effectively cancelling Christmas, as they have in the last couple of days. And why "finally"? Are you saying that until now the government has said that tiers will persist indefinitely irrespective of any vaccine?
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
Why "scant"? Look at the USA, and look again when the bulk of the Thanksgiving infections start coming through in the middle of next week. Look at Quebec and Manitoba effectively cancelling Christmas, as they have in the last couple of days. And why "finally"? Are you saying that until now the government has said that tiers will persist indefinitely irrespective of any vaccine?
There have been continual messages (largely from SAGE and in the media to be honest) that restrictions will continue well into 2021.
I've never thought that would really hold - as soon as individuals see their loved ones protected, farcical rules (eg my parents work for me, so I could see them at work, but not in my flat or at their house) will not be obeyed.
Oh and edit to add, I think 'scant' right now because it takes the onus off individual to make their own choices.
As things stand, it does look like the EU will be more to blame for No Deal (should that happen). Their demands are pretty outrageous. 10 years no change in fishing? - then payments to them if we want more share. The EU allowed to subsidise industries, yet we are not. And so on.
It is probably just theatre. Macron playing hard to please his voters, with an election not that far away. Merkel, by contrast, is retiring and would like a sensible Brexit to add to her achievements
But even if it is just theatre you can see how one unintended slip could lead to calamity
12,000 fishermen working on just under 6,000 UK-registered vessels.
Okay - 13.500 jobs at risk with the collapse of Arcadia.
I'm trying not to equate apples and haddock but we've seen industries and communities deliberately hollowed out by Government action and accidentally by changes in economic culture and technology.
Is every boat sacred? Is every job in High Street retail sacred?
What do we do if we end the current arrangements - do we start over-fishing again and depleting stocks? Do we accept current quotas? Do we not want, as an ideal, ALL fishermen to be supported whether in the UK or EU? The status quo pending some further negotiations seems eminently reasonable. We do need a practical and sensible arrangement for fishing going forward - on that I do agree.
As for subsidising industries - here I do agree. As a sovereign country (there's that word again), we should be able to determine for ourselves the line on workers' rights and state aid. I'd like to think our workers and environmental protection would be superior to the EU but that's our decision to make, not theirs. I don't imagine the EU telling China or Russia or India they have to abide by EU legislation.
You realise we had quota's before fishing grounds became common and they were working. In 1970 on 10% of species were over fished. Since the EU has take over in 1970 we are now up to 90% of species. Just look at what is going on in the med where the british don't even fish.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
I am very confident the national psychodrama won't come to an end any time soon, especially if it goes No Deal. The central contradiction of Brexit is that there is no viable and sustainable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the EU on its terms. Yet we left the EU to stop them telling us what to do.
In fact the dilemma facing Johnson is precisely this. I believe Johnson really wants a deal, more than he is letting on and more than people think. He defines success in deals: that he had an oven ready one, that he would get Brexit done, the continuity deals with third countries. He hypocritically taunted May because he got a deal and she didn't. Deals are a crude gauge of Brexit success but that is what he measures himself by.
He wants a deal but he doesn't want to make the compromises necessary to get one. The negotiations have been stuck on that personal dilemma for the last six months and remains the sticking point this weekend. And the issues are about being told what to do by the EU.
Why do the government keep over promising....Hancock now a hostage to fortune that basically have signalled Easter we will be able to loosen all these restrictions before end of March.
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
Why "scant"? Look at the USA, and look again when the bulk of the Thanksgiving infections start coming through in the middle of next week. Look at Quebec and Manitoba effectively cancelling Christmas, as they have in the last couple of days. And why "finally"? Are you saying that until now the government has said that tiers will persist indefinitely irrespective of any vaccine?
In Canada the Province to watch is Alberta. The only one without mandatory masks. And bursting into a clear lead in cases. It is the 51st State once again.
If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
If Nissan close the Sunderland plant because of No Deal, hoe exactly are the workers supposed to "knuckle down" ?
When the fishing fleets are layed up because they can't sell their catch, what does "knuckle down" look like"
If a vaccine delivery is delayed by Brexit, how does "knuckling down" help the grieving families?
BoZo's jingositic schtick won't fly
I also see he's saying "Great Britain" not the United Kingdom. Tough shit, NI.
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
We had to have the restrictions. The health system would have collapsed otherwise. Not cool.
I'd be very surprised if Johnson actively chooses no deal, although events can sometimes start to derail under their own steam, obviously. His whole life has been both about avoiding conflict, in the slightly more generous interpretation, and avoiding responsibility, in the more critical one. No deal means both immediately greater conflict and immediately greater responsibility.
His desire for power is greater than his desire to avoid conflict. He thinks No Deal will shore up his base. I'm not convinced he's thought the reprecussions through.
I think his lust for power, as a psychoanalyst would have it, is the most regressed and undifferentiated part of him - very unreflective and immediate. Whenever he ponders anything more properly for any length of time, he always seems to pick the more avoidant path. He would be breaking the habit of a lifetime here by going for the most divisive option of something he's had four years to think about, i think , but who knows.
Doesn't he tend to agree with the last person in the room? Don't know who that would be this time. Might be the tea lady.
The UK’s biggest children’s charity has been reported to the official regulator over new guidance that says parents and grandparents should be teaching children about “white privilege”.
The new report from Barnardo's prompted a dozen Conservative MPs to complain both to the charity itself and the Charity Commission.
In a letter they warn the charity is moving into "political activism" following the publication last month of guidance published titled "White privilege - a guide for parents".
Chances of the EU closing their borders to trade in the event of a no deal? Probably as close to zero as you can imagine.
Yes you could be right if you mean ALL trade. You are 100% wrong if you rule out ongoing “cod wars”. In fact opponents of brexit are looking forward to spat after spat after spat after spat, it’s exactly how the EU think they will get UK public opinion to rejoin, and they are almost certainly right about the impact almost constant wrangling is going to have on UK public opinion.
He wants a deal but he doesn't want to make the compromises necessary to get one. The negotiations have been stuck on that personal dilemma for the last six months and remains the sticking point this weekend. And the issues are about being told what to do by the EU.
And if there is No Deal, the EU becomes more important, not less. We will be begging them for trade
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
You're remembering uncharacteristically poorly here. The push for a second referendum began after May's infamous "red lines" began to raise the prospect of no deal, which she then sought to use, and not at all before.
Utter, provable bollocks. Here is a senior Labour figure calling for a 2nd referendum on.... Sunday June 26, 2016
That's, er, FOUR DAYS after the first referendum. And it already contained all the classic elements of the genre
"The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament."
With their crass, self-regarding stupidity, Remainers like Lammy immediately made Leavers into hostile enemies, afraid of seeing their vote completely ignored. FOUR DAYS AFTER THE FIRST VOTE.
The petition for a 2nd referendum - signed by millions - was started about a week after the first referendum
Exactly. The drive to annul the vote started almost immediately after the result was in....
Remember the Mortimer golden rule of Brexit: anything that cheers remainers ends up, eventually, undermining their cause:
'How about EEA/EFTA', 'Lets stay in the Single Market and Customs Union', 'OK, just the customs Union', Gina Miller lawsuit, everything Letwin and Grieve touched, Boris Johnson's resignation, 'We really ought to have a second referendum', changing HoC standing orders, overturning the prorogation, blocking the election, indicative votes, people's vote, revoke, Jo Swinson Next PM, Bercow....
Every single one forced the argument towards a harder Brexit.
Rubbish. Johnson has had an 80 seat majority for a year now to achieve a deal. He has failed to do so. He is the face of Brexit, always has been, and with the majority to achieve whatever he wanted he has still failed to reach a deal. Remainers lost, finally, in 2019. We got beat. The ball has been in your court ever since. You have failed to play it. You can't blame us for a fiasco that is taking place on your watch. This is yours, and yours alone.
Literally none of what you have written makes any of what I wrote rubbish...
I totally agree that the 2019 election was the final victory for the Leave faction. I suspect we'll have a bit of turbulence either way - deal or no deal - but given we very rarely change course from democratically made decisions in this country, I expect whatever happens to stick.
"...we very rarely change course from democratically made decisions in this country...". Absolute balderdash. Normally speaking decisions are made by elected policitians and, if they don't work out, we elect new ones to take us in a new direction. If No Deal is a fiasco, and it will be, then Labour will win the next election as the political mood will have changed and we will move in a different direction.
If you are talking about the referendum as the "democratically made decision" then you don't have all that much in the way of precedent to back that assertion up because, until Cameron came along, we very rarely had them.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
Wars aren't just guns and bullets, they are also all about trade and blockades. See Napoleon. Or the cod war. Or indeed the Cold War.
We could be approaching a kind of tepidly Cold War with Europe. I hope not.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
Odd for an author not to understand that history is written after the event.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
I am very confident the national psychodrama won't come to an end any time soon, especially if it goes No Deal. The central contradiction of Brexit is that there is no viable and sustainable outcome for the UK that doesn't involve a close relationship with the EU on its terms. Yet we left the EU to stop them telling us what to do.
In fact the dilemma facing Johnson is precisely this. I believe Johnson really wants a deal, more than he is letting on and more than people think. He defines success in deals: that he had an oven ready one, that he would get Brexit done, the continuity deals with third countries. He hypocritically taunted May because he got a deal and she didn't. Deals are a crude gauge of Brexit success but that is what he measures himself by.
He wants a deal but he doesn't want to make the compromises necessary to get one. The negotiations have been stuck on that personal dilemma for the last six months and remains the sticking point this weekend. And the issues are about being told what to do by the EU.
This is why I think the best scenario for him is to take the EU to the brink, and then agree to a form of extension while they keep talking. He can present this as the EU being chicken, and him graciously helping them out because of the pandemic.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
The war analogies are important though, because they highlight how this kind of thinking is baked into modern Thatcherite conservatism.
While the rest of Europe was just beginning to contemplate a wider cultural integration - Greece joined in 1981 - Britain was setting off to fight a postimperial war in the Falklands, which some people genuinely believed represented a return of some vestiges of the imperial era. The importance of that cultural disjunction should never be underestimated, if anyone wants to understand how the tabloid campaign of the later eighties until 2016 was able to gain such traction and lead us where we are now. It was a return to a warrior self-mythology just when others were turning away from it, and a crucial moment.
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
Why "scant"? Look at the USA, and look again when the bulk of the Thanksgiving infections start coming through in the middle of next week. Look at Quebec and Manitoba effectively cancelling Christmas, as they have in the last couple of days. And why "finally"? Are you saying that until now the government has said that tiers will persist indefinitely irrespective of any vaccine?
In Canada the Province to watch is Alberta. The only one without mandatory masks. And bursting into a clear lead in cases. It is the 51st State once again.
Trudeau's Liberals did not win a single seat in Alberta at the Canadian election last year despite the Liberals winning most seats in Canada overall, Alberta is closer to Trumpland in the US than either Biden's US or Trudeau's Canada
Chances of the EU closing their borders to trade in the event of a no deal? Probably as close to zero as you can imagine.
Yes you could be right if you mean ALL trade. You are 100% wrong if you rule out ongoing “cod wars”. In fact opponents of brexit are looking forward to spat after spat after spat after spat, it’s exactly how the EU think they will get UK public opinion to rejoin, and they are almost certainly right about the impact almost constant wrangling is going to have on UK public opinion.
The EU constantly misjudge British opinion. As do pro European politicians. That is part of the reason for this problem.
If there had been a referendum on Maastricht, as Mrs T was had suggested there should be, we could have sorted out our position within a looser Europe in the early 90s.
With all the bleating about how we must agree to a level playing field from certain quarters I take it that you would happily agree then that the uk should insist that the lpf include the following
...no undercutting us by eu countries having lesser standards for live stock welfare....sure Nick Palmer will confirm that one
...no undercutting us by having lower minimum wage, welfare or in work protections.
.. no undercutting us by have lesser food hygiene standards...wasnt british meat contaminated with horse meat after all.
...no undercutting us by looking the other ways when nations turn a blind eye to emissions standsards....germany yes I am looking at you
...no undercutting us by illegal bans on our products such as british beef....france your turn in the spotlight
...no undercutting us by sweeping your problems under the carpet and pretending they dont exist again france and bse
A close friend of the prime minister and his fiancee was given an official position at the Home Office without the role being publicly advertised, a freedom of information request has revealed.
Nimco Ali, who is reportedly godmother to the son of Carrie Symonds and Boris Johnson, was appointed adviser on tackling violence against women and girls in October.
Information released under the Freedom of Information Act to The Critic magazine revealed that she was hired via a “direct appointment process”, without open competition or advertisement for the job.
It appears the role may have been created for Ali, with no mention of it before her appointment. She is paid £350 a day and works two days a month.
Brazil reported 43,209 additional confirmed cases of the novel coronavirus in the past 24 hours, and 664 deaths from Covid-19, the health ministry said on Saturday. The South American country has now registered 6,577,177 cases since the pandemic began, while the official death toll has risen to 176,628, according to ministry data.
Given what we also are starting to learn about (long) COVID, how many of these developing nations are going to be struggling with huge numbers of sick people way into the future.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
And yet look at how national identities endure, myths and self conceptions intact.
The Basque Country is identifiably itself at the end of the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago. Still is.
Japan, England, China, are similar - if less antique - nation states that have never been properly conquered (more than temporarily) and maintain a very clear sense of their own identity. Language, tea, poetry, war.
I could be wrong. But my sense is the English will react to European aggression with traditional snarling enmity
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
You're remembering uncharacteristically poorly here. The push for a second referendum began after May's infamous "red lines" began to raise the prospect of no deal, which she then sought to use, and not at all before.
Utter, provable bollocks. Here is a senior Labour figure calling for a 2nd referendum on.... Sunday June 26, 2016
That's, er, FOUR DAYS after the first referendum. And it already contained all the classic elements of the genre
"The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament."
With their crass, self-regarding stupidity, Remainers like Lammy immediately made Leavers into hostile enemies, afraid of seeing their vote completely ignored. FOUR DAYS AFTER THE FIRST VOTE.
The petition for a 2nd referendum - signed by millions - was started about a week after the first referendum
Exactly. The drive to annul the vote started almost immediately after the result was in....
Remember the Mortimer golden rule of Brexit: anything that cheers remainers ends up, eventually, undermining their cause:
'How about EEA/EFTA', 'Lets stay in the Single Market and Customs Union', 'OK, just the customs Union', Gina Miller lawsuit, everything Letwin and Grieve touched, Boris Johnson's resignation, 'We really ought to have a second referendum', changing HoC standing orders, overturning the prorogation, blocking the election, indicative votes, people's vote, revoke, Jo Swinson Next PM, Bercow....
Every single one forced the argument towards a harder Brexit.
Rubbish. Johnson has had an 80 seat majority for a year now to achieve a deal. He has failed to do so. He is the face of Brexit, always has been, and with the majority to achieve whatever he wanted he has still failed to reach a deal. Remainers lost, finally, in 2019. We got beat. The ball has been in your court ever since. You have failed to play it. You can't blame us for a fiasco that is taking place on your watch. This is yours, and yours alone.
Literally none of what you have written makes any of what I wrote rubbish...
I totally agree that the 2019 election was the final victory for the Leave faction. I suspect we'll have a bit of turbulence either way - deal or no deal - but given we very rarely change course from democratically made decisions in this country, I expect whatever happens to stick.
"...we very rarely change course from democratically made decisions in this country...". Absolute balderdash. Normally speaking decisions are made by elected policitians and, if they don't work out, we elect new ones to take us in a new direction. If No Deal is a fiasco, and it will be, then Labour will win the next election as the political mood will have changed and we will move in a different direction.
If you are talking about the referendum as the "democratically made decision" then you don't have all that much in the way of precedent to back that assertion up because, until Cameron came along, we very rarely had them.
Oh sure, the personnel change. The fundamental direction of travel, however, rarely changes in the modern British state. A Labour government of 13 years didn't really tinker very much with Mrs T's liberalisation of the economy (in some areas they actually took it further).
The way that the EU and we were going was unsustainable because there was no real desire, here, to end up with a more centralised, powerful European political arrangement, and a weaker British one.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
The war analogies are important though, because they highlight how this kind of thinking is baked into modern Thatcherite conservatism.
While the rest of Europe was just beginning to contemplate a wider cultural integration - Greece joined in 1981 - Britain was setting off to fight a postimperial war in the Falklands, which some people genuinely believed represented a return of some vestiges of the imperial era. The importance of that cultural disjunction should never be underestimated, if anyone wants to understand how the tabloid campaign of the later eighties until 2016 was able to gain such traction and lead us where we are now. It was a return to a warrior self-mythology just when others were turning away from it, and a crucial moment.
Rolling back the frontiers of the state ... all the way to Argentina! ☺
A close friend of the prime minister and his fiancee was given an official position at the Home Office without the role being publicly advertised, a freedom of information request has revealed.
Nimco Ali, who is reportedly godmother to the son of Carrie Symonds and Boris Johnson, was appointed adviser on tackling violence against women and girls in October.
Information released under the Freedom of Information Act to The Critic magazine revealed that she was hired via a “direct appointment process”, without open competition or advertisement for the job.
It appears the role may have been created for Ali, with no mention of it before her appointment. She is paid £350 a day and works two days a month.
Not surprised by the grift, but how bad they seem to be at it...
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
The war analogies are important though, because they highlight how this kind of thinking is baked into modern Thatcherite conservatism.
While the rest of Europe was just beginning to contemplate a wider cultural integration - Greece joined in 1981 - Britain was setting off to fight a postimperial war in the Falklands, which some people genuinely believed represented a return of some vestiges of the imperial era. The importance of that cultural disjunction should never be underestimated, if anyone wants to understand how the tabloid campaign of the later eighties until 2016 was able to gain such traction and lead us where we are now. It was a return to a warrior self-mythology just when others were turning away from it, and a crucial moment.
What a load of tosh.
Do you think we should have allowed a foreign country to seize British territory against the wishes of the inhabitants?
France, Germany and Italy are closing resorts over the holiday season to stop the spread of Covid-19. Italy, supported by Germany, wanted a European agreement to close all ski resorts over the holiday, but in two countries - Switzerland and Austria - the ski lifts will be running. Some ski slopes in northern Spain also hope to open.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
Wars aren't just guns and bullets, they are also all about trade and blockades. See Napoleon. Or the cod war. Or indeed the Cold War.
We could be approaching a kind of tepidly Cold War with Europe. I hope not.
The character of nations changes. While this country was behind the Govt in WW2, the same cannot be said for the same country 150 years earlier, where Pitt the Younger and his immediate successors had to crush internal dissent through a repressive network of Riot Acts and agents provocateurs. Sometimes the change in character is quite rapid. The France that defended Paris so heroically at Verdun collapsed like a pack of cards 25 years later. The USA of Vietnam was a very different country to that which fought and won WW2 a generation prior. This country has known nothing but the relative prosperity for the last generation or more. The inaccurate and jingoistic historical analogies are beneath your normally intelligent comments.
A close friend of the prime minister and his fiancee was given an official position at the Home Office without the role being publicly advertised, a freedom of information request has revealed.
Nimco Ali, who is reportedly godmother to the son of Carrie Symonds and Boris Johnson, was appointed adviser on tackling violence against women and girls in October.
Information released under the Freedom of Information Act to The Critic magazine revealed that she was hired via a “direct appointment process”, without open competition or advertisement for the job.
It appears the role may have been created for Ali, with no mention of it before her appointment. She is paid £350 a day and works two days a month.
That's the one who didn't think the phrase "tank topped bum boys" was homophobic.
Chances of the EU closing their borders to trade in the event of a no deal? Probably as close to zero as you can imagine.
Yes you could be right if you mean ALL trade. You are 100% wrong if you rule out ongoing “cod wars”. In fact opponents of brexit are looking forward to spat after spat after spat after spat, it’s exactly how the EU think they will get UK public opinion to rejoin, and they are almost certainly right about the impact almost constant wrangling is going to have on UK public opinion.
The EU constantly misjudge British opinion. As do pro European politicians. That is part of the reason for this problem.
If there had been a referendum on Maastricht, as Mrs T was had suggested there should be, we could have sorted out our position within a looser Europe in the early 90s.
Not how it works. Sorry.
If you are in and there is constant wrangling, it will impact public opinion they will want out. If you are out and there is constant wrangling it will impact public opinion they will want in. That is what is coming, far far easier to sell benefits of membership, to manufactures, farmers, fisherman, businessmen, holiday makers etc etc etc
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
The war analogies are important though, because they highlight how this kind of thinking is baked into modern Thatcherite conservatism.
While the rest of Europe was just beginning to contemplate a wider cultural integration - Greece joined in 1981 - Britain was setting off to fight a postimperial war in the Falklands, which some people genuinely believed represented a return of some vestiges of the imperial era. The importance of that cultural disjunction should never be underestimated, if anyone wants to understand how the tabloid campaign of the later eighties until 2016 was able to gain such traction and lead us where we are now. It was a return to a warrior self-mythology just when others were turning away from it, and a crucial moment.
That reminds me of this essay from 1992 arguing that we would have been better off losing the Falklands war.
The ‘Blocked Society’, with its self-assured aristocratic or would-be aristocratic leaders, is well-suited to the conduct of war and diplomacy – in other words, the endeavours of geopolitics, once the central activity in the main arena of international life but now confined to the world’s strategic slums, where they still run around with guns. In the present era of ‘geo-economics’ (as I call it), in which the winners design, develop, finance and manage, while the losers only have menial jobs on assembly-lines, the Blocked Society becomes a society of losers, for it is the meritocratic and not the aristocratic virtues that are needed.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
The war analogies are important though, because they highlight how this kind of thinking is baked into modern Thatcherite conservatism.
While the rest of Europe was just beginning to contemplate a wider cultural integration - Greece joined in 1981 - Britain was setting off to fight a postimperial war in the Falklands, which some people genuinely believed represented a return of some vestiges of the imperial era. The importance of that cultural disjunction should never be underestimated, if anyone wants to understand how the tabloid campaign of the later eighties until 2016 was able to gain such traction and lead us where we are now. It was a return to a warrior self-mythology just when others were turning away from it, and a crucial moment.
What a load of tosh.
Do you think we should have allowed a foreign country to seize British territory against the wishes of the inhabitants?
If the diplomatic handling in the run-up hadn't been so inept, it would very likely have been not at all necessary. The events leading up to it generally represented a failure of statecraft, not a re-assertion of greatness.
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
Why "scant"? Look at the USA, and look again when the bulk of the Thanksgiving infections start coming through in the middle of next week. Look at Quebec and Manitoba effectively cancelling Christmas, as they have in the last couple of days. And why "finally"? Are you saying that until now the government has said that tiers will persist indefinitely irrespective of any vaccine?
In Canada the Province to watch is Alberta. The only one without mandatory masks. And bursting into a clear lead in cases. It is the 51st State once again.
Trudeau's Liberals did not win a single seat in Alberta at the Canadian election last year despite the Liberals winning most seats in Canada overall, Alberta is closer to Trumpland in the US than either Biden's US or Trudeau's Canada
And looking to cement that spot with its Covid response. PM Jason Kenney is now 2nd least popular PM, just 20 months after winning nearly 55% of the vote. He is attempting to reverse ferret on his pandemic policy.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
And yet look at how national identities endure, myths and self conceptions intact.
The Basque Country is identifiably itself at the end of the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago. Still is.
Japan, England, China, are similar - if less antique - nation states that have never been properly conquered (more than temporarily) and maintain a very clear sense of their own identity. Language, tea, poetry, war.
I could be wrong. But my sense is the English will react to European aggression with traditional snarling enmity
National identity and national character are two very different things. The character of Japan today is demonstrably completely different to that in the 30s, let alone the pre Commodore Perry isolation. Ireland has gone from only narrowly accepting divorce in a referendum to enthusiastically accepting gay marriage (and divorce) in the space of 25 years.
And it is not aggression. It's not even close to aggression. It's not even on the same planet.
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
Why "scant"? Look at the USA, and look again when the bulk of the Thanksgiving infections start coming through in the middle of next week. Look at Quebec and Manitoba effectively cancelling Christmas, as they have in the last couple of days. And why "finally"? Are you saying that until now the government has said that tiers will persist indefinitely irrespective of any vaccine?
There have been continual messages (largely from SAGE and in the media to be honest) that restrictions will continue well into 2021.
I've never thought that would really hold - as soon as individuals see their loved ones protected, farcical rules (eg my parents work for me, so I could see them at work, but not in my flat or at their house) will not be obeyed.
Oh and edit to add, I think 'scant' right now because it takes the onus off individual to make their own choices.
Like we shouldn't have speed limits, or blood alcohol limits, which also take the onus off individual to make their own choices. All these cases run into the selfish thoughtless twat problem, and we decide we do have to have choice-depriving rules about life and death issues after all.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
And yet look at how national identities endure, myths and self conceptions intact.
The Basque Country is identifiably itself at the end of the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago. Still is.
Japan, England, China, are similar - if less antique - nation states that have never been properly conquered (more than temporarily) and maintain a very clear sense of their own identity. Language, tea, poetry, war.
I could be wrong. But my sense is the English will react to European aggression with traditional snarling enmity
I'm not questioning the endurance of national identities, far from it. I'm suggesting that the collective qualities of a nation or people do not necessarily persist from one generation to another, and certainly not over multiple generations.
A couple of unrelated observations:
I watched the first episode of Andrew Marr's 'New Elizabethans' series the other night - it was a startling reminder of how vastly attitudes have changed in Britain since the 50s.
I struggle to believe that a country that went into total melt-down over the death of Pricess Diana will show any resilience at all in the face of any shortages, job-losses etc arising from No Deal Brexit.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
Wars aren't just guns and bullets, they are also all about trade and blockades. See Napoleon. Or the cod war. Or indeed the Cold War.
We could be approaching a kind of tepidly Cold War with Europe. I hope not.
Ah yes, the cod war. When the mighty UK took on Iceland, and lost.
I struggle to believe that a country that went into total melt-down over the death of Pricess Diana will show any resilience at all in the face of any shortages, job-losses etc arising from No Deal Brexit.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
And yet look at how national identities endure, myths and self conceptions intact.
The Basque Country is identifiably itself at the end of the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago. Still is.
Japan, England, China, are similar - if less antique - nation states that have never been properly conquered (more than temporarily) and maintain a very clear sense of their own identity. Language, tea, poetry, war.
I could be wrong. But my sense is the English will react to European aggression with traditional snarling enmity
At least you’re restricting your watery Churchillian gruel to England. A welcome if unusual sign of realism.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
The war analogies are rediculous because this is not a war. It's not remotely like a war. There are no heroic tales of derring do. It's all just hassle, shortage, traffic jams, lost opportunity, lost jobs and delay caused by red tape imposed by our own side. We are not even being blockaded - just erecting barriers against a non-existent enemy.
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
Wars aren't just guns and bullets, they are also all about trade and blockades. See Napoleon. Or the cod war. Or indeed the Cold War.
We could be approaching a kind of tepidly Cold War with Europe. I hope not.
The character of nations changes. While this country was behind the Govt in WW2, the same cannot be said for the same country 150 years earlier, where Pitt the Younger and his immediate successors had to crush internal dissent through a repressive network of Riot Acts and agents provocateurs. Sometimes the change in character is quite rapid. The France that defended Paris so heroically at Verdun collapsed like a pack of cards 25 years later. The USA of Vietnam was a very different country to that which fought and won WW2 a generation prior. This country has known nothing but the relative prosperity for the last generation or more. The inaccurate and jingoistic historical analogies are beneath your normally intelligent comments.
I was with you all the way until the last four words.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
And yet look at how national identities endure, myths and self conceptions intact.
The Basque Country is identifiably itself at the end of the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago. Still is.
Japan, England, China, are similar - if less antique - nation states that have never been properly conquered (more than temporarily) and maintain a very clear sense of their own identity. Language, tea, poetry, war.
I could be wrong. But my sense is the English will react to European aggression with traditional snarling enmity
I'm not questioning the endurance of national identities, far from it. I'm suggesting that the collective qualities of a nation or people do not necessarily persist from one generation to another, and certainly not over multiple generations.
A couple of unrelated observations:
I watched the first episode of Andrew Marr's 'New Elizabethans' series the other night - it was a startling reminder of how vastly attitudes have changed in Britain since the 50s.
I struggle to believe that a country that went into total melt-down over the death of Pricess Diana will show any resilience at all in the face of any shortages, job-losses etc arising from No Deal Brexit.
Of course most under 45s voted Remain so I doubt they will react too stoically to No Deal Brexit, even if the over 50s do
It is VERY encouraging to hear the Govt finally accepting this.
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
Why "scant"? Look at the USA, and look again when the bulk of the Thanksgiving infections start coming through in the middle of next week. Look at Quebec and Manitoba effectively cancelling Christmas, as they have in the last couple of days. And why "finally"? Are you saying that until now the government has said that tiers will persist indefinitely irrespective of any vaccine?
There have been continual messages (largely from SAGE and in the media to be honest) that restrictions will continue well into 2021.
I've never thought that would really hold - as soon as individuals see their loved ones protected, farcical rules (eg my parents work for me, so I could see them at work, but not in my flat or at their house) will not be obeyed.
Oh and edit to add, I think 'scant' right now because it takes the onus off individual to make their own choices.
Like we shouldn't have speed limits, or blood alcohol limits, which also take the onus off individual to make their own choices. All these cases run into the selfish thoughtless twat problem, and we decide we do have to have choice-depriving rules about life and death issues after all.
Yep. How many times does it have to be repeated that the mask rule is not to protect the indivudual mask wearer but to protect others?
Brexit doesn’t address globalisation, deindustrialization, environmental catastrophe, the need for closer collaboration on security and energy provision, post industrial change and job losses through automation. If brexit voters feel they were sold a brexit that would - the brexit sellers will deny it.
Leavers wanted this and their poster boy, Johnson, is finally delivering it.
Unless he doesn't...
I'm pretty confident we will leave without a deal. One way or another this national psychodrama will come to an end by either (1) discretiting Remainers when things don't turn out that bad or (2) discrediting Brexiteers when things turn out catastrophic. One of those things will happen. This psychodrama cannot go on indefinately.
On that I agree. We are about to see the denouement, and the ultimate villain will be exposed
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
I think it's a big mistake to assume the nature of a nation or a people continues on unchanged for century after century.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
And yet look at how national identities endure, myths and self conceptions intact.
The Basque Country is identifiably itself at the end of the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago. Still is.
Japan, England, China, are similar - if less antique - nation states that have never been properly conquered (more than temporarily) and maintain a very clear sense of their own identity. Language, tea, poetry, war.
I could be wrong. But my sense is the English will react to European aggression with traditional snarling enmity
I'm not questioning the endurance of national identities, far from it. I'm suggesting that the collective qualities of a nation or people do not necessarily persist from one generation to another, and certainly not over multiple generations.
A couple of unrelated observations:
I watched the first episode of Andrew Marr's 'New Elizabethans' series the other night - it was a startling reminder of how vastly attitudes have changed in Britain since the 50s.
I struggle to believe that a country that went into total melt-down over the death of Pricess Diana will show any resilience at all in the face of any shortages, job-losses etc arising from No Deal Brexit.
Of course most under 45s voted Remain so I doubt they will react too stoically to No Deal Brexit, even if the over 50s do
Indeed. And you'll struggle to find a Leave voter who voted for No Deal.
Comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647948
I totally agree that the 2019 election was the final victory for the Leave faction. I suspect we'll have a bit of turbulence either way - deal or no deal - but given we very rarely change course from democratically made decisions in this country, I expect whatever happens to stick.
Let's hope she's not a No Dealer.
Maybe true in 1997 when some Tories went Referendum Party but Major would have lost anyway even with them, possibly also true in 1974 when Heath lost due to Tories staying home but that was only by a tiny margin
I think you know the answer to that.
Tories call referendum.
Tories back leave and vote leave.
They win.
Tory government agrees deal to leave.
Tories split rather than pass it.
Tories form new government and agree another deal.
Tories pass it this time.
Tories now negotiating the terms.
Can we spot the common demoninator here?
So BoZo will do the other...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/conditions-of-authorisation-for-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine
Johnson gets to decide if he wants this thing or not and we suffer the consequences. He doesn't throw dice.
Our attempts at state organised coercion have been badly implemented and poorly thought through. This country does best when it encourages people to do what is best for themselves and others, not threatens a 6.4k fine for not wearing a mask....
Where I disagree with many on here is the presumption that No Deal will be so catastrophic the fall will be taken by Boris and Farage et al
This is not a sophisticated analysis of human nature. If No Deal happens Europe will be divided between the UK (and its mutinous provinces) and a hostile, bullying EU. The instinct then (particularly in insular, bellicose, not-used-to-being-conquered Great Britain) will be to say F You and knuckle down for the long haul. It is what we have always done (for good and bad). It is in our DNA. From the Armada to Napoleon, from Louis XIV to Hitler.
This is neither virtue nor vice. It us just what we are. A cussed island nation, sometimes wilfully blind, sometimes oddly heroic, often extremely aggressive.
My elderly parents got the box, and it was seemless, always came bascially on time and althiugh the food wasn't super exciting, it was perfectly adequate. If millions of oldies had starved to death during lockdown we definitely would have never heard the end of it.
The EU will let this run (for the cheap cheap rate of £30 million a day), and Boris won't gamble until it's a sure bet.
"Is your plate finished?"
"No....."
When the fishing fleets are layed up because they can't sell their catch, what does "knuckle down" look like"
If a vaccine delivery is delayed by Brexit, how does "knuckling down" help the grieving families?
BoZo's jingositic schtick won't fly
As soon as granny and vulnerable aunty Mary are vaccinated, the already scant justification for arduous state coercion preventing something so fundamentally basic as having dinner with friends, having to wear a mask when you nip into a corner stop etc, closure of whole swathes of the economy, disappears entirely
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Thompson_(media_executive)
The anti-Britain stuff began under his watch. Some of it was insanely warped. The aftershocks continue (and yes for some Americans Brexit = Trump and must be seen as equally evil)
One day we will start looking forward and thinking about the future rather than backward and maming increasingly asinine comparisons with historical conflicts - comparisons which are insulting to people that actually died in those wars BTW.
For example, there's not much evidence of the all-conquering Romans in present day Italy. Similarly compare ancient Greece to modern Greece, or the Arabs of the Islamic Golden Age with today's mismanaged middle east.
Sadly, I suspect modern Britain has a level of grit and resilience more akin to Singapore in 1942 than the Blitz in 1940. But time will tell, I guess.
I've never thought that would really hold - as soon as individuals see their loved ones protected, farcical rules (eg my parents work for me, so I could see them at work, but not in my flat or at their house) will not be obeyed.
Oh and edit to add, I think 'scant' right now because it takes the onus off individual to make their own choices.
https://twitter.com/AllisterHeath/status/1335342171180969991?s=20
The CPF is a disaster.
In fact the dilemma facing Johnson is precisely this. I believe Johnson really wants a deal, more than he is letting on and more than people think. He defines success in deals: that he had an oven ready one, that he would get Brexit done, the continuity deals with third countries. He hypocritically taunted May because he got a deal and she didn't. Deals are a crude gauge of Brexit success but that is what he measures himself by.
He wants a deal but he doesn't want to make the compromises necessary to get one. The negotiations have been stuck on that personal dilemma for the last six months and remains the sticking point this weekend. And the issues are about being told what to do by the EU.
Under promise, over deliver.....
The new report from Barnardo's prompted a dozen Conservative MPs to complain both to the charity itself and the Charity Commission.
In a letter they warn the charity is moving into "political activism" following the publication last month of guidance published titled "White privilege - a guide for parents".
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/05/teach-children-white-privilege-barnardos-tells-parents-prompting/
If you are talking about the referendum as the "democratically made decision" then you don't have all that much in the way of precedent to back that assertion up because, until Cameron came along, we very rarely had them.
We could be approaching a kind of tepidly Cold War with Europe. I hope not.
While the rest of Europe was just beginning to contemplate a wider cultural integration - Greece joined in 1981 - Britain was setting off to fight a postimperial war in the Falklands, which some people genuinely believed represented a return of some vestiges of the imperial era. The importance of that cultural disjunction should never be underestimated, if anyone wants to understand how the tabloid campaign of the later eighties until 2016 was able to gain such traction and lead us where we are now. It was a return to a warrior self-mythology just when others were turning away from it, and a crucial moment.
If there had been a referendum on Maastricht, as Mrs T was had suggested there should be, we could have sorted out our position within a looser Europe in the early 90s.
...no undercutting us by eu countries having lesser standards for live stock welfare....sure Nick Palmer will confirm that one
...no undercutting us by having lower minimum wage, welfare or in work protections.
.. no undercutting us by have lesser food hygiene standards...wasnt british meat contaminated with horse meat after all.
...no undercutting us by looking the other ways when nations turn a blind eye to emissions standsards....germany yes I am looking at you
...no undercutting us by illegal bans on our products such as british beef....france your turn in the spotlight
...no undercutting us by sweeping your problems under the carpet and pretending they dont exist again france and bse
Nimco Ali, who is reportedly godmother to the son of Carrie Symonds and Boris Johnson, was appointed adviser on tackling violence against women and girls in October.
Information released under the Freedom of Information Act to The Critic magazine revealed that she was hired via a “direct appointment process”, without open competition or advertisement for the job.
It appears the role may have been created for Ali, with no mention of it before her appointment. She is paid £350 a day and works two days a month.
Given what we also are starting to learn about (long) COVID, how many of these developing nations are going to be struggling with huge numbers of sick people way into the future.
The Basque Country is identifiably itself at the end of the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago. Still is.
Japan, England, China, are similar - if less antique - nation states that have never been properly conquered (more than temporarily) and maintain a very clear sense of their own identity. Language, tea, poetry, war.
I could be wrong. But my sense is the English will react to European aggression with traditional snarling enmity
The way that the EU and we were going was unsustainable because there was no real desire, here, to end up with a more centralised, powerful European political arrangement, and a weaker British one.
Do you think we should have allowed a foreign country to seize British territory against the wishes of the inhabitants?
France, Germany and Italy are closing resorts over the holiday season to stop the spread of Covid-19. Italy, supported by Germany, wanted a European agreement to close all ski resorts over the holiday, but in two countries - Switzerland and Austria - the ski lifts will be running. Some ski slopes in northern Spain also hope to open.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55181518
If you are in and there is constant wrangling, it will impact public opinion they will want out.
If you are out and there is constant wrangling it will impact public opinion they will want in.
That is what is coming, far far easier to sell benefits of membership, to manufactures, farmers, fisherman, businessmen, holiday makers etc etc etc
https://lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v14/n08/edward-luttwak/who-won-the-falklands-war
The ‘Blocked Society’, with its self-assured aristocratic or would-be aristocratic leaders, is well-suited to the conduct of war and diplomacy – in other words, the endeavours of geopolitics, once the central activity in the main arena of international life but now confined to the world’s strategic slums, where they still run around with guns. In the present era of ‘geo-economics’ (as I call it), in which the winners design, develop, finance and manage, while the losers only have menial jobs on assembly-lines, the Blocked Society becomes a society of losers, for it is the meritocratic and not the aristocratic virtues that are needed.
He is attempting to reverse ferret on his pandemic policy.
And it is not aggression. It's not even close to aggression. It's not even on the same planet.
A couple of unrelated observations:
I watched the first episode of Andrew Marr's 'New Elizabethans' series the other night - it was a startling reminder of how vastly attitudes have changed in Britain since the 50s.
I struggle to believe that a country that went into total melt-down over the death of Pricess Diana will show any resilience at all in the face of any shortages, job-losses etc arising from No Deal Brexit.
A welcome if unusual sign of realism.