So if the EU never stops the conversation, and the EU doesn't give the UK a "win", what happens next?
We choose to close down Kent with vast lorry queues.
And Calais to Paris and Dublin to Cork
I thought we were simply going to wave lorries through? The problem will be them trying to get back into the EU.
Indeed and chaos everywhere, not just in the UK
I understand there has been a lot of stock piling and that makes sense
Chaos maybe, but not queues.
There are always queues crossing into the EU from 3rd countries like we are about to become. Ciaran the Courier (ex Three Men in a Pub) regularly posts screen grabs of land border crossing points and its double digit hours.
In reality the potential queues will be so bad that trucks won't be sent. As for stock-piling you can't do that for fresh food...
The lorries won't need to wait for customs if they return empty to Calais. Not that such a plan would be good for our exports and balance of payments.
Credit to Boris, he is trying at the very least. May didn't even bother to try negotiating.
I hope you have lots of fish recipes for British fish next year, we will all be eating a lot more of it I think, in fact it may constitute our main diet at this rate
Fuck me, surely even you haven’t lost faith Hyufd?
If you have, I’m running for the hills.
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
Credit to Boris, he is trying at the very least. May didn't even bother to try negotiating.
I hope you have lots of fish recipes for British fish next year, we will all be eating a lot more of it I think, in fact it may constitute our main diet at this rate
Fuck me, surely even you haven’t lost faith Hyufd?
If you have, I’m running for the hills.
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
The only problem we'll have with supplies is if everyone else panic buys in January. The problems we have right now are with stockpiling.
There might be some 24-48hr extra delays at ports and airports - and extra warehousing required on top - but this isn't a blockade, and enough stuff will get through for everyone.
I "panic bought" for Covid-19 in early February, because I thought the shit could really hit the fan and the supply lines would be taken out - at least temporarily - by the virus.
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
We can rule out Johnson having Sturgeon for breakfast.
Because she’s 20 years too old, or for some other reason?
It really would be a chronic failure of statemanship to fail to agree a Deal now.
It comes down to level-playing field (round objects: we're never going to burn forests and pollute rivers, or slash holidays to zero, so environment, and workers rights aren't an issue - the only exception I can think of is tax), state aid (basically sorted, but needs to be fair and equitable on both sides - allow emergency support aid and some for new tech), regression governance (scope narrowly drawn, and fair) and a haggle on fish quotas.
This really should be do'able. Many some money would sweeten the pill?
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no dedicated poppyism moment when all players must kneel or risk getting called out.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no enforced poppyism moment when all players must kneel.
Good. The vast majority of people who oppose it do so because they fear it's the thin end of the wedge, not because they're secret racists.
On topic, Maryland is at 97% counted mainly because Baltimore City County has only counted 84.5% and with Biden winning 88% of the vote there may be some more to come for the President-elect.
The Daily Mail this morning was already preparing the propaganda line to be peddled - IF there's a Deal, it's a triumph for Boris, we should celebrate, strew rose petals wherever he goes and similar obsequious eulogising nonsense. If we don't have a Deal, it's all Macron's fault and the traditional anti-French stereotyping already much in evidence.
When you have supporters, you can do nothing wrong because anything and everything is either a triumph for you or someone else's fault and as long as there is someone else to blame, that's all you need. The Trump mob are the same - they can't believe they lost because their candidate was a complete bumbling halfwit but because of some form of highly-organised voter fraud ranging from Venezuela through China to dodgy software and there's so much evidence no one can present it all (apparently).
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
We can rule out Johnson having Sturgeon for breakfast.
Because she’s 20 years too old, or for some other reason?
Sturgeon is a Royal fish. Only the Queen is allowed to eat it
Credit to Boris, he is trying at the very least. May didn't even bother to try negotiating.
I hope you have lots of fish recipes for British fish next year, we will all be eating a lot more of it I think, in fact it may constitute our main diet at this rate
Fuck me, surely even you haven’t lost faith Hyufd?
If you have, I’m running for the hills.
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
Credit to Boris, he is trying at the very least. May didn't even bother to try negotiating.
I hope you have lots of fish recipes for British fish next year, we will all be eating a lot more of it I think, in fact it may constitute our main diet at this rate
Fuck me, surely even you haven’t lost faith Hyufd?
If you have, I’m running for the hills.
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
The only problem we'll have with supplies is if everyone else panic buys in January. The problems we have right now are with stockpiling.
There might be some 24-48hr extra delays at ports and airports - and extra warehousing required on top - but this isn't a blockade, and enough stuff will get through for everyone.
I "panic bought" for Covid-19 in early February, because I thought the shit could really hit the fan and the supply lines would be taken out - at least temporarily - by the virus.
I have no such fears over a No-Deal Brexit.
If we get No Deal Brexit in January on top of another lockdown after case rises following the Christmas festivities, you will be lucky to get a full week's supplies at the supermarket certainly
I simply don't understand this 'level playing field' nonsense. Are we leaving the customs union or not? Can the government make a decision?
One solution (to me at least) would be to scale back the no taxes, no tariffs and no quotas "ask" in exchange for more flexibility on some aspects of that.
I don't see why it has to be an either all or none choice.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
I have just quantum leaped back from the year 2029, where Skynet has decimated mankind and our glorious leader John Connor leads the Resistance.
I regret to inform you Betfair still haven't settled on the results of the 2020 US Presidential election and what remains of the United Kingdom government and European Union are still muttering something about level playing fields, governance, and fish (which have been extinct for years now and even if they weren't they'd probably emit more radiation than Chernobyl).
The good news is coronavirus is no longer a problem!
I have just quantum leaped back from the year 2029, where Skynet has decimated mankind and our glorious leader John Connor leads the Resistance.
I regret to inform you Betfair still haven't settled on the results of the 2020 US Presidential election and what remains of the United Kingdom government and European Union are still muttering something about level playing fields, governance, and fish (which have been extinct for years now and even if they weren't they'd probably emit more radiation than Chernobyl).
The good news is coronavirus is no longer a problem!
Credit to Boris, he is trying at the very least. May didn't even bother to try negotiating.
I hope you have lots of fish recipes for British fish next year, we will all be eating a lot more of it I think, in fact it may constitute our main diet at this rate
That really would not be a bad thing.
Many things are not bad things if they are options, but feel bad when there is no other choice.
I spent a lot of time indoors, but having no option but to spend most time indoors in lockdown was still a bummer.
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
We can rule out Johnson having Sturgeon for breakfast.
Because she’s 20 years too old, or for some other reason?
Sturgeon is a Royal fish. Only the Queen is allowed to eat it
I now have a mental image of the Queen and Sturgeon having each other across the breakfast table...
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
Well, poppyism is enforced at games, even when few of the players are British, and indeed many of them German, Austrian, Italian etc.
Unless Johnson and Von De Leyen can give the negotiators some room for manouevre then it’s pointless continuing with these talks.
The same 3 topics have been discussed all summer and autumn and are going nowhere . One would have thought the economic carnage caused by Covid would have led to some compromises to avoid further economic calamity .
A no deal is very bad for the EU and catastrophic for the UK both economically and politically. The UK will end up stuck between the USA and the EU , the SNP will clear up at next years elections, the clamour for Irish re-unification will intensify .
It’s a shame more didn’t think of this before believing all the Vote Leave lies in 2016 !
No country in history has put up trade barriers against its largest market , its ludicrous and quite astonishing when you really think about it!
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no enforced poppyism moment when all players must kneel.
Good. The vast majority of people who oppose it do so because they fear it's the thin end of the wedge, not because they're secret racists.
Although the clubs say all the players definitely want to, I think there is effectively forced compliance as long as the league make it part of the kickoff, as we have seen in other sports as soon as somebody doesn't, they get written about. There was outcry over a white rugby player refusing to and he had explain to the world that far from being a massive racist, he actually adopted a black child. Even big billy (a black player) had to explain he doesn't agree with BLM movement. Fingers were pointed when they stopped in the cricket and lots of articles about how racist cricket really is. Etc etc etc.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
Well, poppyism is enforced at games, even when few of the players are British, and indeed many of them German, Austrian, Italian etc.
James Mclean doesn't wear kit with one on. Also it is for just one or two games a year.
I think people are taking issue that what started as showing solidarity has now turned into something that is mandatory at every game for the rest of time. When as I pointed out the NFL don't even do so.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
Well, poppyism is enforced at games, even when few of the players are British, and indeed many of them German, Austrian, Italian etc.
It shouldn't be. Of course, there is societal pressure in all these things - anyone may technically be free not to participate in specific events and symbols (though that would be harder now they put poppy's on the shirts), but are they really free to do it, or would their lack of participation be taken as indicating they are opposed to the event in question. We definitely see it if someone doesn't wear a poppy, and we sometimes see it with taking the knee and other gestures.
There will be exceptions in life, but I don't think with poppies or BLM style protests that a failure to participate should be taken as endorsement of the contrary opinion and, absent anything else, itself worthy of condemantion. Now this football thing tonight, there was booing from fans, that is something else, perhaps more concerning, but it is still a strong statement to then decalare a failure to agree with a position means people are definitely racist. I welcome the continued use of gestures and protests, though I may take issue with the specifics of them, but we don't want to overdo gestures to the point they lose power.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no enforced poppyism moment when all players must kneel.
Good. The vast majority of people who oppose it do so because they fear it's the thin end of the wedge, not because they're secret racists.
Although the clubs say all the players definitely want to, I think there is effectively forced compliance as long as the league make it part of the kickoff, as we have seen in other sports as soon as somebody doesn't, they get written about. There was outcry over a white rugby player refusing to and he had explain to the world that far from being a massive racist, he actually adopted a black child. Even big billy (a black player) had to explain he doesn't agree with BLM movement. Fingers were pointed when they stopped in the cricket and lots of articles about how racist cricket really is. Etc etc etc.
I don't agree with the forced compliance but nor do I agree with those who choose to take the knee being booed. There's a way of disagreeing with something without disrespecting those with whom you disagree.
Unless Johnson and Von De Leyen can give the negotiators some room for manouevre then it’s pointless continuing with these talks.
The same 3 topics have been discussed all summer and autumn and are going nowhere . One would have thought the economic carnage caused by Covid would have led to some compromises to avoid further economic calamity .
A no deal is very bad for the EU and catastrophic for the UK both economically and politically. The UK will end up stuck between the USA and the EU , the SNP will clear up at next years elections, the clamour for Irish re-unification will intensify .
It’s a shame more didn’t think of this before believing all the Vote Leave lies in 2016 !
No country in history has put up trade barriers against its largest market , its ludicrous and quite astonishing when you really think about it!
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
It really would be a chronic failure of statemanship to fail to agree a Deal now.
It comes down to level-playing field (round objects: we're never going to burn forests and pollute rivers, or slash holidays to zero, so environment, and workers rights aren't an issue - the only exception I can think of is tax), state aid (basically sorted, but needs to be fair and equitable on both sides - allow emergency support aid and some for new tech), regression governance (scope narrowly drawn, and fair) and a haggle on fish quotas.
This really should be do'able. Many some money would sweeten the pill?
To mix metaphors, it is fortunate that we have the top team of Johnson and Frost batting for us and not you. You appear to be on the verge of folding.
Anyway, why would Johnson want to take any financial sweeteners? He will become a squillionare over night when he retires as PM.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
Well, poppyism is enforced at games, even when few of the players are British, and indeed many of them German, Austrian, Italian etc.
James Mclean doesn't wear kit with one on. Also it is for just one or two games a year.
I think people are taking issue that what started as showing solidarity has now turned into something that is mandatory at every game for the rest of time. When as I pointed out the NFL don't even do so.
Rainbow laces today in support of LGBT rights too 🙂
Yes, I think it reasonable to drop it at some point, but there certainly is an ongoing issue of racism in football.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no enforced poppyism moment when all players must kneel.
Good. The vast majority of people who oppose it do so because they fear it's the thin end of the wedge, not because they're secret racists.
Although the clubs say all the players definitely want to, I think there is effectively forced compliance as long as the league make it part of the kickoff, as we have seen in other sports as soon as somebody doesn't, they get written about. There was outcry over a white rugby player refusing to and he had explain to the world that far from being a massive racist, he actually adopted a black child. Even big billy (a black player) had to explain he doesn't agree with BLM movement. Fingers were pointed when they stopped in the cricket and lots of articles about how racist cricket really is. Etc etc etc.
I don't agree with the forced compliance but nor do I agree with those who choose to take the knee being booed. There's a way of disagreeing with something without disrespecting those with whom you disagree.
That's true, and given how many do disagree I doubt all those who do would boo it even though they disagree. And being concerned it might indicate persistent racism and working on that is not unreasonable. But even booing, disrespectful as it is, is not proof of racism, or even necessarily a lack of concern about tackling racism.
Anyway, it's a long night - pleasant debates to all.
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
Well, poppyism is enforced at games, even when few of the players are British, and indeed many of them German, Austrian, Italian etc.
It shouldn't be. Of course, there is societal pressure in all these things - anyone may technically be free not to participate in specific events and symbols (though that would be harder now they put poppy's on the shirts), but are they really free to do it, or would their lack of participation be taken as indicating they are opposed to the event in question. We definitely see it if someone doesn't wear a poppy, and we sometimes see it with taking the knee and other gestures.
There will be exceptions in life, but I don't think with poppies or BLM style protests that a failure to participate should be taken as endorsement of the contrary opinion and, absent anything else, itself worthy of condemantion. Now this football thing tonight, there was booing from fans, that is something else, perhaps more concerning, but it is still a strong statement to then decalare a failure to agree with a position means people are definitely racist. I welcome the continued use of gestures and protests, though I may take issue with the specifics of them, but we don't want to overdo gestures to the point they lose power.
He is right that the decision on puberty blockers does considerably modify case law for medical consent in the under 16s. "Gillick competence*" was the previous stance, but this takes things much further than just reversing that. The decision does seem to mean that puberty blockers cannot be prescribed to under 16s even with the consent of parents. What other life changing treatments will also be prevented? Perhaps cosmetic surgery is an obvious one, alongside abortion.
*the Gillick case was brought by a mother wanting to establish that contraceptives could not be prescribed under 16 without parent being informed. The ruling was that they could be, if the girl was mature enough to understand.
I really can't stand Maugham. Just had a look at his twitter feed. All grandstanding, he's a lawyer with no understanding of the complexity of the trans issue - as if it were akin to the abolitionist movement. As for denying people health treatment is he aware that providing people with bad treatment isn't really something the NHS ought to be doing?
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
It wouldn't given the Leave campaigns promises over ending free movement and regaining control of our fishing waters etc
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
I think it a good thing if there is renewed efforts to stamp out racism in sport, and anywhere else, and the use of symbols and gestures can be a part of that.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
Well, poppyism is enforced at games, even when few of the players are British, and indeed many of them German, Austrian, Italian etc.
James Mclean doesn't wear kit with one on. Also it is for just one or two games a year.
I think people are taking issue that what started as showing solidarity has now turned into something that is mandatory at every game for the rest of time. When as I pointed out the NFL don't even do so.
Rainbow laces today in support of LGBT rights too 🙂
Yes, I think it reasonable to drop it at some point, but there certainly is an ongoing issue of racism in football.
I think the rainbow laces is a good example of how it should be. Its only for one game and players can choose to or not.
It really would be a chronic failure of statemanship to fail to agree a Deal now.
It comes down to level-playing field (round objects: we're never going to burn forests and pollute rivers, or slash holidays to zero, so environment, and workers rights aren't an issue - the only exception I can think of is tax), state aid (basically sorted, but needs to be fair and equitable on both sides - allow emergency support aid and some for new tech), regression governance (scope narrowly drawn, and fair) and a haggle on fish quotas.
This really should be do'able. Many some money would sweeten the pill?
To mix metaphors, it is fortunate that we have the top team of Johnson and Frost batting for us and not you. You appear to be on the verge of folding.
Anyway, why would Johnson want to take any financial sweeteners? He will become a squillionare over night when he retires as PM.
I think I've been pretty clear and consistent that a fish quota in the 30-40% range, some basic equivalence on floors for dumping and minimum standards would be fine and are the zone for a Deal.
I wouldn't even mind regression governance on top, provided it was narrowed in scope to that for the Deal itself. And I might sweeten the pill with some cash if it stopped a French veto and allowed Macron to wave some sort of victory.
"For the second day in a row, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled 4-3 against a lawsuit attempting to invalidate the results of the state's presidential election.
The latest comes from the Wisconsin Voters Alliance alleging "material violations of Wisconsin law" by state elections officials and asking the court to prevent certification of the election by the Wisconsin Elections Commission so the "state legislature can lawfully appoint the electors."
As part of the concurring opinion, Justice Brian Hagedorn wrote they were being asked to perform an "unprecedented" task, opining, "We are invited to invalidate the entire presidential election in Wisconsin by declaring it 'null' -- yes, the whole thing. And there's more. We should, we are told, enjoin the Wisconsin Elections Commission from certifying the election so that Wisconsin's presidential electors can be chosen by the legislature instead, and then compel the Governor to certify those electors.""
Maybe that explains Betfair's caution? Is it really the case that if one Judge had gone the other way the entire Wisconsin election would be declared void (ie vote totals nil) and the legislature would appoint electors?
Seems extraordinary and frightening. And a warning of what might happen in the future even if it doesn't this year.
Only one judge would have granted the relief sought.
Even taking this into consideration, 'safe harbour' date is the 8th. The courts can't & won't hear on potential election changing deciding cases after this date.
A settlement date of the 14th and the 8th can only come about as a result of faithless electors changing the result.
This document is interesting - has details of the process. Apparently when the college people have voted and signed certificates they are then sent by registered mail .
"For the second day in a row, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled 4-3 against a lawsuit attempting to invalidate the results of the state's presidential election.
The latest comes from the Wisconsin Voters Alliance alleging "material violations of Wisconsin law" by state elections officials and asking the court to prevent certification of the election by the Wisconsin Elections Commission so the "state legislature can lawfully appoint the electors."
As part of the concurring opinion, Justice Brian Hagedorn wrote they were being asked to perform an "unprecedented" task, opining, "We are invited to invalidate the entire presidential election in Wisconsin by declaring it 'null' -- yes, the whole thing. And there's more. We should, we are told, enjoin the Wisconsin Elections Commission from certifying the election so that Wisconsin's presidential electors can be chosen by the legislature instead, and then compel the Governor to certify those electors.""
Maybe that explains Betfair's caution? Is it really the case that if one Judge had gone the other way the entire Wisconsin election would be declared void (ie vote totals nil) and the legislature would appoint electors?
Seems extraordinary and frightening. And a warning of what might happen in the future even if it doesn't this year.
Only one judge would have granted the relief sought.
Even taking this into consideration, 'safe harbour' date is the 8th. The courts can't & won't hear on potential election changing deciding cases after this date.
A settlement date of the 14th and the 8th can only come about as a result of faithless electors changing the result.
This document is interesting - has details of the process. Apparently when the college people have voted and signed certificates they are then sent by registered mail .
That's an excellent document. I've seen similar before and they rather tend to illustrate that the 14th December is not the only date you could take as definitive. Now that Betfair have decided not to settle in accordance with their original rules, there are any number of dates they might well alight upon up to and including Inauguration Day.
None would be especially logical, but I think Betfair left logic behind some weeks backs.
I did vote Remain if you recall, I would prefer a Deal still but am going to start preparing for No Deal I think from next week, may be an idea to get the supplies in for January, though if we do go to No Deal because the French would give us what we want on fish we will at least as I pointed out have lots more Cod, Plaice and Mackeral heading for British supermarkets rather than the continent
We can rule out Johnson having Sturgeon for breakfast.
Because she’s 20 years too old, or for some other reason?
Sturgeon is a Royal fish. Only the Queen is allowed to eat it
I now have a mental image of the Queen and Sturgeon having each other across the breakfast table...
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no enforced poppyism moment when all players must kneel.
Good. The vast majority of people who oppose it do so because they fear it's the thin end of the wedge, not because they're secret racists.
Although the clubs say all the players definitely want to, I think there is effectively forced compliance as long as the league make it part of the kickoff, as we have seen in other sports as soon as somebody doesn't, they get written about. There was outcry over a white rugby player refusing to and he had explain to the world that far from being a massive racist, he actually adopted a black child. Even big billy (a black player) had to explain he doesn't agree with BLM movement. Fingers were pointed when they stopped in the cricket and lots of articles about how racist cricket really is. Etc etc etc.
Would you want to be the single player who didn't do it?
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Oh. REALLY? I thought it was Johnson, actually. He has been there at every critical juncture of this sorry saga, pushing it each time towards the more damaging outcome...
Unless Johnson and Von De Leyen can give the negotiators some room for manouevre then it’s pointless continuing with these talks.
The same 3 topics have been discussed all summer and autumn and are going nowhere . One would have thought the economic carnage caused by Covid would have led to some compromises to avoid further economic calamity .
A no deal is very bad for the EU and catastrophic for the UK both economically and politically. The UK will end up stuck between the USA and the EU , the SNP will clear up at next years elections, the clamour for Irish re-unification will intensify .
It’s a shame more didn’t think of this before believing all the Vote Leave lies in 2016 !
No country in history has put up trade barriers against its largest market , its ludicrous and quite astonishing when you really think about it!
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
He is right that the decision on puberty blockers does considerably modify case law for medical consent in the under 16s. "Gillick competence*" was the previous stance, but this takes things much further than just reversing that. The decision does seem to mean that puberty blockers cannot be prescribed to under 16s even with the consent of parents. What other life changing treatments will also be prevented? Perhaps cosmetic surgery is an obvious one, alongside abortion.
*the Gillick case was brought by a mother wanting to establish that contraceptives could not be prescribed under 16 without parent being informed. The ruling was that they could be, if the girl was mature enough to understand.
I really can't stand Maugham. Just had a look at his twitter feed. All grandstanding, he's a lawyer with no understanding of the complexity of the trans issue - as if it were akin to the abolitionist movement. As for denying people health treatment is he aware that providing people with bad treatment isn't really something the NHS ought to be doing?
That's as may be, and while I have not considered the matter deeply, I support the judgement.
Maughan may well be a pain in the arse, but underneath it all is a very important ruling on capacity to consent in children.
He is right that the decision on puberty blockers does considerably modify case law for medical consent in the under 16s. "Gillick competence*" was the previous stance, but this takes things much further than just reversing that. The decision does seem to mean that puberty blockers cannot be prescribed to under 16s even with the consent of parents. What other life changing treatments will also be prevented? Perhaps cosmetic surgery is an obvious one, alongside abortion.
*the Gillick case was brought by a mother wanting to establish that contraceptives could not be prescribed under 16 without parent being informed. The ruling was that they could be, if the girl was mature enough to understand.
I really can't stand Maugham. Just had a look at his twitter feed. All grandstanding, he's a lawyer with no understanding of the complexity of the trans issue - as if it were akin to the abolitionist movement. As for denying people health treatment is he aware that providing people with bad treatment isn't really something the NHS ought to be doing?
Let us not forget he is the type of man to wake up, naked, and immediately put on his wife's kimono, then take a baseball bat into the garden hoping to bash a wild fox's head to a pulp; he also did this TWICE, and the second time succeeded, and then boasted about it on Twitter.
Smashing foxes to death with bats is bad enough, boasting about it on Twitter makes it worse, but it's the kimono detail that always makes me boak: I honestly believe he got some erotic satisfaction about being naked under his wife's nightie as he belaboured the poor creature into mush. Because there is no way you *accidentally* wear your wife's kimono TWICE to do the same cruel and bizarre task
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
He is right that the decision on puberty blockers does considerably modify case law for medical consent in the under 16s. "Gillick competence*" was the previous stance, but this takes things much further than just reversing that. The decision does seem to mean that puberty blockers cannot be prescribed to under 16s even with the consent of parents. What other life changing treatments will also be prevented? Perhaps cosmetic surgery is an obvious one, alongside abortion.
*the Gillick case was brought by a mother wanting to establish that contraceptives could not be prescribed under 16 without parent being informed. The ruling was that they could be, if the girl was mature enough to understand.
I really can't stand Maugham. Just had a look at his twitter feed. All grandstanding, he's a lawyer with no understanding of the complexity of the trans issue - as if it were akin to the abolitionist movement. As for denying people health treatment is he aware that providing people with bad treatment isn't really something the NHS ought to be doing?
Let us not forget he is the type of man to wake up, naked, and immediately put on his wife's kimono, then take a baseball bat into the garden hoping to bash a wild fox's head to a pulp; he also did this TWICE, and the second time succeeded, and then boasted about it on Twitter.
Smashing foxes to death with bats is bad enough, boasting about it on Twitter makes it worse, but it's the kimono detail that always makes me boak: I honestly believe he got some erotic satisfaction about being naked under his wife's nightie as he belaboured the poor creature into mush. Because there is no way you *accidentally* wear your wife's kimono TWICE to do the same cruel and bizarre task
Yes, but what about the issue of medical consent in children? Has Gillick competence been reversed?
My concern with the kneeling before every game is what is it to represent? Anti racism? Football already has the kick it out programme. It seems to specifically relate to police killings of black men in the United States. Is that such a major issue (particularly considering everything we're dealing with right now) that it should be THE cause that football attaches itself to? In my opinion no.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
The Tories got their leaders the wrong way round. Johnson to negotiate and sell a climbdown (sensible deal) in 2015-6, which he would have had the authority and charisma to do before positions hardened, then waltz off into the sunset. Then May to deal with Covid. With care, diligence and attention to detail.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
If not remainers, blame the idiots who pushed for a second referendum. Whole thing could have been very different with comprise but we are where we are because of all sides
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Classic Brexitism passive aggression.
"Now look what you made me do"
But I am right. If we do, amazingly, lurch into No Deal, none of the players involved could have achieved this remarkably extreme outcome by themselves.
The Brexiteers had to be insanely cavalier and complacent about the risks of No Deal The Remainers has to be mulishly stupid, stubborn and self harming (eg by targeting a 2nd referendum) thereby cornering the Brexiteers into overreacting The EU had to overplay its excellent hand, demanding too much on fish and LPF and possibly trying for a No Deal (cf Macron) hoping that the UK will surrender soon after (we won't)
AND on top of all that we needed Teresa May with her Conference Red Lines. If she hadn't made that calamitous speech we would likely not be here now
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
My concern with the kneeling before every game is what is it to represent? Anti racism? Football already has the kick it out programme. It seems to specifically relate to police killings of black men in the United States. Is that such a major issue (particularly considering everything we're dealing with right now) that it should be THE cause that football attaches itself to? In my opinion no.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
We do need to distinguish between BLM the organisation and blm the movement. I deliberately lower cased it, as in Britain the issue is not so much police racism (much better than it has been, though still present), but the more insidious marginalisation of black lives.
I agree that we import too much Black History from America, where things are quite different. The excellent Small Axe series is a useful rebalanced to British experience.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
My concern with the kneeling before every game is what is it to represent? Anti racism? Football already has the kick it out programme. It seems to specifically relate to police killings of black men in the United States. Is that such a major issue (particularly considering everything we're dealing with right now) that it should be THE cause that football attaches itself to? In my opinion no.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
Maybe some of the booers are racist . maybe some are just sick to death of virtue signalling when they are supposed to be at a sport event .Dion Dublin is wrong to say they people are racists if they don't support taking a knee and BLM. Keep politics out of sport used to be an accepted mantra (and a sensible one)
My concern with the kneeling before every game is what is it to represent? Anti racism? Football already has the kick it out programme. It seems to specifically relate to police killings of black men in the United States. Is that such a major issue (particularly considering everything we're dealing with right now) that it should be THE cause that football attaches itself to? In my opinion no.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
Actually, it is. Non-white people going about their lawful occasions should not be at risk of being murdered by the police.*
But whether it is getting hijacked into the worst form of virtue signalling on the way so of some thoroughly unpleasant and unreliable people is a different question.
*Not forgetting Floyd was no saint, he was AFAIK doing nothing illegal at the time.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Oh. REALLY? I thought it was Johnson, actually. He has been there at every critical juncture of this sorry saga, pushing it each time towards the more damaging outcome...
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no enforced poppyism moment when all players must kneel.
Good. The vast majority of people who oppose it do so because they fear it's the thin end of the wedge, not because they're secret racists.
Although the clubs say all the players definitely want to, I think there is effectively forced compliance as long as the league make it part of the kickoff, as we have seen in other sports as soon as somebody doesn't, they get written about. There was outcry over a white rugby player refusing to and he had explain to the world that far from being a massive racist, he actually adopted a black child. Even big billy (a black player) had to explain he doesn't agree with BLM movement. Fingers were pointed when they stopped in the cricket and lots of articles about how racist cricket really is. Etc etc etc.
Would you want to be the single player who didn't do it?
Glad to see Matt Le Tissier questioning it (continious taking the knee at football) until he got removed from Sky Sports Soccer Saturday (hopefully not conected)
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
If not remainers, blame the idiots who pushed for a second referendum. Whole thing could have been very different with comprise but we are where we are because of all sides
No, non, nein, nunca!
Deal or no deal, this is not the "fault" of any brand of former Remainer. Leave belongs to the Brexiteers- own it and wear it with pride!
Andorra flips into the 1,000 deaths/million category, which now contains two countries (Peru and Belgium) two pretend countries (Andorra, San Marino), and, if you count them separately, ELEVEN US states. And all this before the Thanksgiving wave kicks in. Things are unimaginably dire over there.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
Don't be modest. You won and it was all your own work. Savour the spoils of your victory.
IF Macron really is trying to collapse this into No Deal (I am not entirely convinced he has the gonads of De Gaulle) then he is making a serious mistake.
The idea, in his mind, will surely be to terrorise and pauperise the British people and government into a swift surrender, as the lorries are parked seven deep, all over Kent, and people in Croydon die for lack of Camembert.
This is not how it will happen, this is not human nature.
If Britain is pushed into No Deal we will, as a nation, hunker down and say Feck you, and snarl in anger across the Channel. We will not surrender. Johnson will get all Churchillian and sombre and blood sweat and tears-esque. "Very well, alone". And enough people will rally to the flag as Britain is apparently persecuted by the evil continentals.
No Deal could go on for a very long time, and eventually become permanent (with adjustments)
This is like no-one daring to be the first to stop clapping Stalin's speech.
Some sports have moved on from this e.g. cricket and some football clubs e.g QPR.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no enforced poppyism moment when all players must kneel.
Good. The vast majority of people who oppose it do so because they fear it's the thin end of the wedge, not because they're secret racists.
Although the clubs say all the players definitely want to, I think there is effectively forced compliance as long as the league make it part of the kickoff, as we have seen in other sports as soon as somebody doesn't, they get written about. There was outcry over a white rugby player refusing to and he had explain to the world that far from being a massive racist, he actually adopted a black child. Even big billy (a black player) had to explain he doesn't agree with BLM movement. Fingers were pointed when they stopped in the cricket and lots of articles about how racist cricket really is. Etc etc etc.
Would you want to be the single player who didn't do it?
yes and if you were you can bet everyone would demand you to give a reason you did not kneel . Doubt you could just say "no comment" when you should be able to. this county is turning ugly .Also you woudl get booed no doubt and I doubt everyone woudl leapt to condemn the booers then
My concern with the kneeling before every game is what is it to represent? Anti racism? Football already has the kick it out programme. It seems to specifically relate to police killings of black men in the United States. Is that such a major issue (particularly considering everything we're dealing with right now) that it should be THE cause that football attaches itself to? In my opinion no.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
Maybe some of the booers are racist . maybe some are just sick to death of virtue signalling when they are supposed to be at a sport event .Dion Dublin is wrong to say they people are racists if they don't support taking a knee and BLM. Keep politics out of sport used to be an accepted mantra (and a sensible one)
Actively booing taking a knee likely to be strongly correlated to racism. Difficult to think otherwise.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
Bollocks was it. It was May's failure to try and build a consensus that poisoned the debate, well before any talk of a 2nd referendum and "revoke". Brexit means Brexit.
IF Macron really is trying to collapse this into No Deal (I am not entirely convinced he has the gonads of De Gaulle) then he is making a serious mistake.
The idea, in his mind, will surely be to terrorise and pauperise the British people and government into a swift surrender, as the lorries are parked seven deep, all over Kent, and people in Croydon die for lack of Camembert.
This is not how it will happen, this is not human nature.
If Britain is pushed into No Deal we will, as a nation, hunker down and say Feck you, and snarl in anger across the Channel. We will not surrender. Johnson will get all Churchillian and sombre and blood sweat and tears-esque. "Very well, alone". And enough people will rally to the flag as Britain is apparently persecuted by the evil continentals.
No Deal could go on for a very long time, and eventually become permanent (with adjustments)
Most of the adult fish are in British waters and lots of French fishermen risk going bankrupt if not allowed access to it.
However I think you are being a bit overoptimistic about this generation of Britons, most could not last without having on demand supplies for more than a weekend, especially under 50s, let alone the rationing our grandparents had in WW2
Harry Kane was asked about this earlier this week on 5 Live.
England captain Harry Kane says Premier League players should continue to take a knee before matches in support of the Black Lives Matter movement.
QPR decided in September to stop making the gesture before games, with director of football Les Ferdinand saying its impact had "been diluted".
Kane told BBC Radio 5 live he sees it as educational for a global audience.
"I hear people ask if we should still be doing it and we should," said the Tottenham striker, 27.
"What people don't realise is sometimes we are watched by millions of people round the world. Of course, for the person who watches the Premier League every week, they see the same thing every week.
"But I think if you look around the world you see children watching the game for the first time, seeing us all take a knee and asking their parents and asking why we take the knee.
"It's a great chance for people to explain why and get their point across. Education is the biggest thing we can do. Adults can teach generations what it means, and what it means to be together and help each other no matter what your race."
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
Bollocks was it. It was May's failure to try and build a consensus that poisoned the debate, well before any talk of a 2nd referendum and "revoke". Brexit means Brexit.
It was both. TMay was a catastrophe with her red lines, but so was the clamour for a "2nd referendum" which came soon after the result.
I have just read Sasha Swire's diverting Diary of a Tory MP's Wife
She reveals that at one point David Cameron was supporting a 2nd referendum. He wanted to annul the result of his own referendum, before it had even be enacted, and have a new one, hoping to overturn democracy.
I find that extraordinary. The prime minister who called the referendum wanted to ignore the same vote he called, and run it again, because he didn't like the result. How does that make him any different from Trump wanting to upend the US Election?
Cameron will not come out well in the history books.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
Bollocks was it. It was May's failure to try and build a consensus that poisoned the debate, well before any talk of a 2nd referendum and "revoke". Brexit means Brexit.
There is no consensus, the only consensus most Remainers offered was staying in the single market and customs union with full free movement and unable to do our own trade deals which was obviously unacceptable to Leavers as it in effect meant No Brexit at all in reality.
The only thing acceptable to most Leavers while also avoiding No Deal for Remainers is a Canada style trade deal which I hope we still get
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
What has this got to do with (former) Remainers? We hung up our blue, with 28 gold stars Euro trousers at the end of last year.
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
It was the push for a 2nd referendum (or just Revoke!!!)) which totally poisoned the debate and polarised everyone. Brexiteers thought they might not get any Brexit at all, so began to accept No Deal as better than nowt
Bollocks was it. It was May's failure to try and build a consensus that poisoned the debate, well before any talk of a 2nd referendum and "revoke". Brexit means Brexit.
I distinctly recall a number of votes regarding potential aspects of a new relationship in the commons. None of them gained a majority. Whole brexit debate has been fought on a winner takes all basis, and that leads us here.
IF Macron really is trying to collapse this into No Deal (I am not entirely convinced he has the gonads of De Gaulle) then he is making a serious mistake.
The idea, in his mind, will surely be to terrorise and pauperise the British people and government into a swift surrender, as the lorries are parked seven deep, all over Kent, and people in Croydon die for lack of Camembert.
This is not how it will happen, this is not human nature.
If Britain is pushed into No Deal we will, as a nation, hunker down and say Feck you, and snarl in anger across the Channel. We will not surrender. Johnson will get all Churchillian and sombre and blood sweat and tears-esque. "Very well, alone". And enough people will rally to the flag as Britain is apparently persecuted by the evil continentals.
No Deal could go on for a very long time, and eventually become permanent (with adjustments)
Those gullible enough are already spouting the propaganda line - IF there is a Deal, it will (irrespective and probably in spite of the detail) be hailed as a "triumph" for Boris and all the Union Jack flags will be out and somehow Britain will have "won" again (doesn't it always?).
Obviously, no one will look at the detail of the Deal and anyone who even suggests the UK might have given away quite a lot will be shouted down as not being appropriately patriotic and supportive.
IF there is No Deal, we can always blame the French and wheel out the ludicrous stereotypes and caricatures which get an airing every time we want to divert attention from our own failings and blame someone else. Perhaps a cheese-related comment will get an airing - it often does.
That's the thing with the loyalist - everything is a triumph and if it isn't there's always someone to blame, be it the French or dodgy software or voter fraud.
My concern with the kneeling before every game is what is it to represent? Anti racism? Football already has the kick it out programme. It seems to specifically relate to police killings of black men in the United States. Is that such a major issue (particularly considering everything we're dealing with right now) that it should be THE cause that football attaches itself to? In my opinion no.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
Maybe some of the booers are racist . maybe some are just sick to death of virtue signalling when they are supposed to be at a sport event .Dion Dublin is wrong to say they people are racists if they don't support taking a knee and BLM. Keep politics out of sport used to be an accepted mantra (and a sensible one)
Actively booing taking a knee likely to be strongly correlated to racism. Difficult to think otherwise.
A lot more people are opposed to virtue signalling than are racist so maybe it is not that difficult to think
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Nothing to do with you, of course, oh no.
I am fairly confident that the "Role of G. Lady (lesbian Hampstead newtpainter)" will be a vanishingly small footnote when they come to write the History of Brexit
Is there anything less exciting than reporting 'the Centre Party' has taken a poll lead in Norway?
The Centre Party is rather misnamed. It used to be the Farmers Party, and has a nationalist populist approach. It favours leaving the EEA and Schengen and protectionist tariffs.
Would be fascinated to see the movement. Locally it feels like we're losing support on our right flank because of a)restrictions, lockdowns etc and b) this obsession with greenie stuff and bans...
IF Macron really is trying to collapse this into No Deal (I am not entirely convinced he has the gonads of De Gaulle) then he is making a serious mistake.
The idea, in his mind, will surely be to terrorise and pauperise the British people and government into a swift surrender, as the lorries are parked seven deep, all over Kent, and people in Croydon die for lack of Camembert.
This is not how it will happen, this is not human nature.
If Britain is pushed into No Deal we will, as a nation, hunker down and say Feck you, and snarl in anger across the Channel. We will not surrender. Johnson will get all Churchillian and sombre and blood sweat and tears-esque. "Very well, alone". And enough people will rally to the flag as Britain is apparently persecuted by the evil continentals.
No Deal could go on for a very long time, and eventually become permanent (with adjustments)
Those gullible enough are already spouting the propaganda line - IF there is a Deal, it will (irrespective and probably in spite of the detail) be hailed as a "triumph" for Boris and all the Union Jack flags will be out and somehow Britain will have "won" again (doesn't it always?).
Obviously, no one will look at the detail of the Deal and anyone who even suggests the UK might have given away quite a lot will be shouted down as not being appropriately patriotic and supportive.
IF there is No Deal, we can always blame the French and wheel out the ludicrous stereotypes and caricatures which get an airing every time we want to divert attention from our own failings and blame someone else. Perhaps a cheese-related comment will get an airing - it often does.
That's the thing with the loyalist - everything is a triumph and if it isn't there's always someone to blame, be it the French or dodgy software or voter fraud.
As things stand, it does look like the EU will be more to blame for No Deal (should that happen). Their demands are pretty outrageous. 10 years no change in fishing? - then payments to them if we want more share. The EU allowed to subsidise industries, yet we are not. And so on.
It is probably just theatre. Macron playing hard to please his voters, with an election not that far away. Merkel, by contrast, is retiring and would like a sensible Brexit to add to her achievements
But even if it is just theatre you can see how one unintended slip could lead to calamity
Is there anything less exciting than reporting 'the Centre Party' has taken a poll lead in Norway?
The Centre Party is rather misnamed. It used to be the Farmers Party, and has a nationalist populist approach. It favours leaving the EEA and Schengen and protectionist tariffs.
Is there anything less exciting than reporting 'the Centre Party' has taken a poll lead in Norway?
The Centre Party is rather misnamed. It used to be the Farmers Party, and has a nationalist populist approach. It favours leaving the EEA and Schengen and protectionist tariffs.
So the EU may end up with 'No Deal' WTO terms with Norway as well as us then in due course
I wouldn’t have said they were ‘open minded and decent.’ I’ve neither forgotten nor forgiven their rampages through Cardiff on match days fuelled by anti-Welsh xenophobia.
Cardiff City v Millwall at Ninian Park? Not a pretty sight, I’m sure.
Nearly as bad as when Scotland's finest visited Manchester in 2008.
You mean the side that wants to play in the English Premier League?
Comments
There might be some 24-48hr extra delays at ports and airports - and extra warehousing required on top - but this isn't a blockade, and enough stuff will get through for everyone.
I "panic bought" for Covid-19 in early February, because I thought the shit could really hit the fan and the supply lines would be taken out - at least temporarily - by the virus.
I have no such fears over a No-Deal Brexit.
And the where it all began, the NFL, the first couple of weeks of the season they went big with a "a black national anthem" and all sorts of extra gestures, but they too have now resorted to the normal pre-match routines (with some players choosing to kneel when they play the athemn). There is no dedicated poppyism moment when all players must kneel or risk getting called out.
The number of people who don't support ending racism is tiny: 10-15% of the population.
On topic, Maryland is at 97% counted mainly because Baltimore City County has only counted 84.5% and with Biden winning 88% of the vote there may be some more to come for the President-elect.
The Daily Mail this morning was already preparing the propaganda line to be peddled - IF there's a Deal, it's a triumph for Boris, we should celebrate, strew rose petals wherever he goes and similar obsequious eulogising nonsense. If we don't have a Deal, it's all Macron's fault and the traditional anti-French stereotyping already much in evidence.
When you have supporters, you can do nothing wrong because anything and everything is either a triumph for you or someone else's fault and as long as there is someone else to blame, that's all you need. The Trump mob are the same - they can't believe they lost because their candidate was a complete bumbling halfwit but because of some form of highly-organised voter fraud ranging from Venezuela through China to dodgy software and there's so much evidence no one can present it all (apparently).
I don't see why it has to be an either all or none choice.
However, what I would be concerned by is suggestion that lack of overt support or even opposition to certain gestures and symbols in itself is proof of sustained or even increasing racism. As useful as gestures and symbols can be, we don't want adherence of them to seem to be the whole of the thing, as it were, as if doing the gestures is all you need to fix the problem, or that not doing the gestures is the same as encouraging the problem.
I have just quantum leaped back from the year 2029, where Skynet has decimated mankind and our glorious leader John Connor leads the Resistance.
I regret to inform you Betfair still haven't settled on the results of the 2020 US Presidential election and what remains of the United Kingdom government and European Union are still muttering something about level playing fields, governance, and fish (which have been extinct for years now and even if they weren't they'd probably emit more radiation than Chernobyl).
The good news is coronavirus is no longer a problem!
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/528895-us-sets-new-daily-coronavirus-record-with-nearly-228000-cases
I spent a lot of time indoors, but having no option but to spend most time indoors in lockdown was still a bummer.
Put it this way, it’s not caviar to the gentry.
https://twitter.com/ybouziar/status/1335237069082415104
The same 3 topics have been discussed all summer and autumn and are going nowhere . One would have thought the economic carnage caused by Covid would have led to some compromises to avoid further economic calamity .
A no deal is very bad for the EU and catastrophic for the UK both economically and politically. The UK will end up stuck between the USA and the EU , the SNP will clear up at next years elections, the clamour for Irish re-unification will intensify .
It’s a shame more didn’t think of this before believing all the Vote Leave lies in 2016 !
No country in history has put up trade barriers against its largest market , its ludicrous and quite astonishing when you really think about it!
I think people are taking issue that what started as showing solidarity has now turned into something that is mandatory at every game for the rest of time. When as I pointed out the NFL don't even do so.
https://twitter.com/FallonTonight/status/1335091748272484353
There will be exceptions in life, but I don't think with poppies or BLM style protests that a failure to participate should be taken as endorsement of the contrary opinion and, absent anything else, itself worthy of condemantion. Now this football thing tonight, there was booing from fans, that is something else, perhaps more concerning, but it is still a strong statement to then decalare a failure to agree with a position means people are definitely racist. I welcome the continued use of gestures and protests, though I may take issue with the specifics of them, but we don't want to overdo gestures to the point they lose power.
And stop posturing.
At one point it would have been easy-peasy-Japanesy to steer the UK into the softest of softsoap Brexits, the EEA or EFTA or both and a 20 year transition deal. blah blah
A combination of Remainer stupidity, Brexiteer silliness, and arrogant overconfidence in Brussels (and Paris) has brought us to this precipice
Anyway, why would Johnson want to take any financial sweeteners? He will become a squillionare over night when he retires as PM.
Yes, I think it reasonable to drop it at some point, but there certainly is an ongoing issue of racism in football.
Anyway, it's a long night - pleasant debates to all.
I wouldn't even mind regression governance on top, provided it was narrowed in scope to that for the Deal itself. And I might sweeten the pill with some cash if it stopped a French veto and allowed Macron to wave some sort of victory.
Outside of that I wouldn't dance.
None would be especially logical, but I think Betfair left logic behind some weeks backs.
"Now look what you made me do"
Maughan may well be a pain in the arse, but underneath it all is a very important ruling on capacity to consent in children.
Smashing foxes to death with bats is bad enough, boasting about it on Twitter makes it worse, but it's the kimono detail that always makes me boak: I honestly believe he got some erotic satisfaction about being naked under his wife's nightie as he belaboured the poor creature into mush. Because there is no way you *accidentally* wear your wife's kimono TWICE to do the same cruel and bizarre task
Blame the EU, if you must, but Remainers? We weren't there squire.
Of course racists are gonna boo because that's what racists do. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
Then May to deal with Covid. With care, diligence and attention to detail.
The Brexiteers had to be insanely cavalier and complacent about the risks of No Deal
The Remainers has to be mulishly stupid, stubborn and self harming (eg by targeting a 2nd referendum) thereby cornering the Brexiteers into overreacting
The EU had to overplay its excellent hand, demanding too much on fish and LPF and possibly trying for a No Deal (cf Macron) hoping that the UK will surrender soon after (we won't)
AND on top of all that we needed Teresa May with her Conference Red Lines. If she hadn't made that calamitous speech we would likely not be here now
I agree that we import too much Black History from America, where things are quite different. The excellent Small Axe series is a useful rebalanced to British experience.
But whether it is getting hijacked into the worst form of virtue signalling on the way so of some thoroughly unpleasant and unreliable people is a different question.
*Not forgetting Floyd was no saint, he was AFAIK doing nothing illegal at the time.
Deal or no deal, this is not the "fault" of any brand of former Remainer. Leave belongs to the Brexiteers- own it and wear it with pride!
The idea, in his mind, will surely be to terrorise and pauperise the British people and government into a swift surrender, as the lorries are parked seven deep, all over Kent, and people in Croydon die for lack of Camembert.
This is not how it will happen, this is not human nature.
If Britain is pushed into No Deal we will, as a nation, hunker down and say Feck you, and snarl in anger across the Channel. We will not surrender. Johnson will get all Churchillian and sombre and blood sweat and tears-esque. "Very well, alone". And enough people will rally to the flag as Britain is apparently persecuted by the evil continentals.
No Deal could go on for a very long time, and eventually become permanent (with adjustments)
https://www.thelocal.fr/20201007/whats-at-stake-for-french-fishermen-in-the-brexit-fishing-spat
Most of the adult fish are in British waters and lots of French fishermen risk going bankrupt if not allowed access to it.
However I think you are being a bit overoptimistic about this generation of Britons, most could not last without having on demand supplies for more than a weekend, especially under 50s, let alone the rationing our grandparents had in WW2
England captain Harry Kane says Premier League players should continue to take a knee before matches in support of the Black Lives Matter movement.
QPR decided in September to stop making the gesture before games, with director of football Les Ferdinand saying its impact had "been diluted".
Kane told BBC Radio 5 live he sees it as educational for a global audience.
"I hear people ask if we should still be doing it and we should," said the Tottenham striker, 27.
"What people don't realise is sometimes we are watched by millions of people round the world. Of course, for the person who watches the Premier League every week, they see the same thing every week.
"But I think if you look around the world you see children watching the game for the first time, seeing us all take a knee and asking their parents and asking why we take the knee.
"It's a great chance for people to explain why and get their point across. Education is the biggest thing we can do. Adults can teach generations what it means, and what it means to be together and help each other no matter what your race."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2021_Norwegian_parliamentary_election#2020
I have just read Sasha Swire's diverting Diary of a Tory MP's Wife
She reveals that at one point David Cameron was supporting a 2nd referendum. He wanted to annul the result of his own referendum, before it had even be enacted, and have a new one, hoping to overturn democracy.
I find that extraordinary. The prime minister who called the referendum wanted to ignore the same vote he called, and run it again, because he didn't like the result. How does that make him any different from Trump wanting to upend the US Election?
Cameron will not come out well in the history books.
The only thing acceptable to most Leavers while also avoiding No Deal for Remainers is a Canada style trade deal which I hope we still get
Obviously, no one will look at the detail of the Deal and anyone who even suggests the UK might have given away quite a lot will be shouted down as not being appropriately patriotic and supportive.
IF there is No Deal, we can always blame the French and wheel out the ludicrous stereotypes and caricatures which get an airing every time we want to divert attention from our own failings and blame someone else. Perhaps a cheese-related comment will get an airing - it often does.
That's the thing with the loyalist - everything is a triumph and if it isn't there's always someone to blame, be it the French or dodgy software or voter fraud.
My coat?
It is probably just theatre. Macron playing hard to please his voters, with an election not that far away. Merkel, by contrast, is retiring and would like a sensible Brexit to add to her achievements
But even if it is just theatre you can see how one unintended slip could lead to calamity
I don't understand this. How can you think that Brexit "hindered" the availability of a vaccine, when we are literally one of the first to approve it?