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The latest polling on measures to control the virus and what Contrarian Hartley-Brewer is saying – p

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited November 2020 in General
The latest polling on measures to control the virus and what Contrarian Hartley-Brewer is saying – politicalbetting.com

YouGov finds strong support for a third lockdown if that is what it is going to take pic.twitter.com/u0Ewo0YBkB

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,882
    First, second, third and fourth like all the virus waves we'll get if we are stupid enough to let it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,128
    edited November 2020
    Total support for a third lockdown strongest in the South at 70% and opposition strongest in the Midlands and Wales where 30% are opposed.

    Support strongest with LDs with 79% in favour and Remainers with 77% in favour.

    Opposition strongest with Tories with 31% opposed and with Leavers who have 29% opposed to the idea.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/11/30/c5ab2/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    It being supported doesn't in itself prove it is a good idea of course, but the skeptics have to be realistic about if they represent the majority or a minority - if the argument on principle or by evidence holds up it works on its own without pretending that the public is clamouring for an end to things they are not, even if some think they should.

    Hartley-Brewer seems to be simultaneously arguing there be no restrictions whatsoever, but also no consequences to the economic and social costs already bourne and still to be bourne even if there are no restrictions.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,590
    edited November 2020
    I don't understand the Labour decision to abstain. How can you be neutral on this?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Foxy said:

    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1333525003967598596

    Cancer treatments are being handicapped by the cancer wards filling up with covid patients, not by lockdown.
    She may not have a great grasp of cause and effect.
    LadyG said:

    I've started talking to myself. And I don't mean the odd muttering. Proper conversations. By me with me.

    Lockdown 2 needs to end SOON

    Hence PB - for those who need to shout into the void.
    Anabobazina said:

    It’s not clear to me why there is any debate about Die Hard being a Christmas film. The entire premise of the picture requires the tower block to be deserted - hence Christmas. Although the massive plot hole is why would any company hold its Christmas party on Christmas Eve? Don’t those people have homes to go to?

    The debate's all in good fun, but for me the principal argument is just a semantic one about the themes of the movie, and whether if you swapped it out reference to Christmas with, say, thanksgiving, or some other holiday where very few would be working, would it work just as well? Is it a Christmas movie or just a movie that happens to take place at Christmas? Was Jack Reacher 2 a halloween movie after all?

    Being honest it has some elements of common Christmas movie themes of family and redemption (and of course people will disagree on what 'makes' a Christmas movie anyway) that maybe it passes muster, but it's just a silly argument anyway since it's an action movie first and foremost, and whether it 'succeeds' as a Christmas movie is rather secondary as to whether it suceeds at that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    RobD said:

    AlwaysSinging said:

    rottenborough said:

    AlwaysSinging said:

    rottenborough said:

    "I think the evidence is unequivocal that we are in a PCR false positive pseudo-epidemic"

    "Viruses don’t do waves (beyond the secondary ripple concept as outlined above). I have repeatedly asked to see the trove of scientific papers used to predict a ‘second wave’ and to build a model to compute its likely size and timing. They have never been forthcoming. It’s almost as if there is no such foundational literature. I’m sure SAGE can put us right on this."



    https://lockdownsceptics.org/the-pcr-false-positive-pseudo-epidemic/

    This article raises some very interesting issues about the scale and quality of PCR testing.

    It raises nothing interesting. It makes assertions without evidence or selectively quotes sources that are contradicted by both the body of scientific opinion and subsequent fact. It's ignorant nonsense. Don't fall for it.

    --AS
    Why would someone with 30 years senior level experience in R&D for respiratory medications keep writing articles that are "ignorant nonsense"?
    Why, indeed? I think that's an excellent question. Being flattered that their opinion is sought? A feeling of power? Self-promotion? Or simply getting a bee in their bonnet and being unable to challenge their own beliefs enough to see that there's nothing in their theory?

    Whatever the reason, it's still ignorant nonsense. As any actual public health, epidemiology, expert in PCR, or statistician will tell you.

    --AS
    It's the appeal to authority fallacy.
    Which is all the more silly when there are multiple authorities, so even if everyone wanted to pick their own to listen to everyone must be right as each has authority. And simply believing none where there are dissenting views hardly works, but it doesn't mean all views are equal either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,128
    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1333540184663740416?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Anabobazina said:

    kle4 said:

    Anabobazina said:

    It’s not clear to me why there is any debate about Die Hard being a Christmas film. The entire premise of the picture requires the tower block to be deserted - hence Christmas. Although the massive plot hole is why would any company hold its Christmas party on Christmas Eve? Don’t those people have homes to go to?

    The debate's all in good fun, but for me the principal argument is just a semantic one about the themes of the movie, and whether if you swapped it out reference to Christmas with, say, thanksgiving, or some other holiday where very few would be working, would it work just as well? Is it a Christmas movie or just a movie that happens to take place at Christmas? Was Jack Reacher 2 a halloween movie after all?

    Being honest it has some elements of common Christmas movie themes of family and redemption (and of course people will disagree on what 'makes' a Christmas movie anyway) that maybe it passes muster, but it's just a silly argument anyway since it's an action movie first and foremost, and whether it 'succeeds' as a Christmas movie is rather secondary as to whether it suceeds at that.
    Fair analysis but you fail to answer my poser about the party.

    Maybe in a later picture it will be revealed that it was an inside job. Some corrupt HR/events manager engineered to hold the party on Christmas Eve for a share of Gruber’s loot.
    My favourite Die Hard is Die Hard 3 anyway, so I'm on thin enough ice as it is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,128
    edited November 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't understand the Labour decision to abstain. How can you be neutral on this?

    Starmer is going to back Boris' tiers and Boris' Brexit Deal or at least abstain as a tactical decision to expose Tory rebels on the backbenches who will vote in greater numbers against if Labour are not opposed, while also ensuring both pass.

    Similar to when IDS decided to vote for the Iraq War with the Blair government leading to over 100 Labour rebels voting against or abstaining (only this time IDS will be a leading rebel)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't understand the Labour decision to abstain. How can you be neutral on this?

    It exposes and encourages the Tory rebels. It also says to the world that “but for our support through abstention Johnson would have lost”. It is a message that won’t be lost on the Tory rank and file. Doubly so if the same thing happens on any potential Deal.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    kle4 said:

    Anabobazina said:

    It’s not clear to me why there is any debate about Die Hard being a Christmas film. The entire premise of the picture requires the tower block to be deserted - hence Christmas. Although the massive plot hole is why would any company hold its Christmas party on Christmas Eve? Don’t those people have homes to go to?

    The debate's all in good fun, but for me the principal argument is just a semantic one about the themes of the movie, and whether if you swapped it out reference to Christmas with, say, thanksgiving, or some other holiday where very few would be working, would it work just as well? Is it a Christmas movie or just a movie that happens to take place at Christmas? Was Jack Reacher 2 a halloween movie after all?

    Being honest it has some elements of common Christmas movie themes of family and redemption (and of course people will disagree on what 'makes' a Christmas movie anyway) that maybe it passes muster, but it's just a silly argument anyway since it's an action movie first and foremost, and whether it 'succeeds' as a Christmas movie is rather secondary as to whether it suceeds at that.
    Fair analysis but you fail to answer my poser about the party.

    Maybe in a later picture it will be revealed that it was an inside job. Some corrupt HR/events manager engineered to hold the party on Christmas Eve for a share of Gruber’s loot.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Longer prices on the ECV bands have disappeared in the past couple of hours.
    Current Betfair prices:-

    Biden 1.05
    Democrats 1.05
    Biden PV 1.03
    Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.06
    Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.05
    Trump ECV 210-239 1.09
    Biden ECV 300-329 1.08
    Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.05
    Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.07
    Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.01

    AZ Dem 1.05
    GA Dem 1.06
    MI Dem 1.05
    NV Dem 1.05
    PA Dem 1.06
    WI Dem 1.05

    Trump to leave before end of term NO 1.12
    Trump exit date 2021 1.1
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't understand the Labour decision to abstain. How can you be neutral on this?

    They apparently want to be the government, but without having to take any tough decisions. Opposition suits them well.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    Now its 6 days....

    How festive bubbles could last SIX days: Families can spend longer together at Christmas if 'unforeseen disruption to travel' stops them returning home

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9003117/How-festive-bubbles-SIX-days.html
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Now its 6 days....

    How festive bubbles could last SIX days: Families can spend longer together at Christmas if 'unforeseen disruption to travel' stops them returning home

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9003117/How-festive-bubbles-SIX-days.html

    Is it only the British media that harps on about these few days around Christmas? It really isn't helpful.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    RobD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Now its 6 days....

    How festive bubbles could last SIX days: Families can spend longer together at Christmas if 'unforeseen disruption to travel' stops them returning home

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9003117/How-festive-bubbles-SIX-days.html

    Is it only the British media that harps on about these few days around Christmas? It really isn't helpful.
    They are massively irresponsible. Every single f##king rule and they work out what the loophole is and make a huge deal of it.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Longer prices on the ECV bands have disappeared in the past couple of hours.
    Current Betfair prices:-

    Biden 1.05
    Democrats 1.05
    Biden PV 1.03
    Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.06
    Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.05
    Trump ECV 210-239 1.09
    Biden ECV 300-329 1.08
    Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.05
    Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.07
    Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.01

    AZ Dem 1.05
    GA Dem 1.06
    MI Dem 1.05
    NV Dem 1.05
    PA Dem 1.06
    WI Dem 1.05

    Trump to leave before end of term NO 1.12
    Trump exit date 2021 1.1

    Just staggering. 1.05 on state results which are not only known, but have been officially certified, by the Republican elected officials.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    FPT Barnier sidelined?
    https://twitter.com/CSpillmann/status/1333530030748610571?s=20
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Strange how these self-styled free thinking, free speaking contrarians all think and speak exactly the same on all topics.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Now its 6 days....

    How festive bubbles could last SIX days: Families can spend longer together at Christmas if 'unforeseen disruption to travel' stops them returning home

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9003117/How-festive-bubbles-SIX-days.html

    Like King's Cross being shut for example?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Gove promised that people planning to retire to France or Spain would be unaffected.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,479
    Are we saying our Contrarian is JHB?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    BluestBlue said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't understand the Labour decision to abstain. How can you be neutral on this?

    They apparently want to be the government, but without having to take any tough decisions. Opposition suits them well.
    And a large proportion of your party want to be the opposition. Labour are just letting them practice.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    dixiedean said:

    Strange how these self-styled free thinking, free speaking contrarians all think and speak exactly the same on all topics.

    Which demonstrates how much they've been oppressed. Free the Hartley-Brewer One!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Longer prices on the ECV bands have disappeared in the past couple of hours.
    Current Betfair prices:-

    Biden 1.05
    Democrats 1.05
    Biden PV 1.03
    Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.06
    Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.05
    Trump ECV 210-239 1.09
    Biden ECV 300-329 1.08
    Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.05
    Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.07
    Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.01

    AZ Dem 1.05
    GA Dem 1.06
    MI Dem 1.05
    NV Dem 1.05
    PA Dem 1.06
    WI Dem 1.05

    Trump to leave before end of term NO 1.12
    Trump exit date 2021 1.1

    Just staggering. 1.05 on state results which are not only known, but have been officially certified, by the Republican elected officials.
    I think it is the time factor. If the markets will not be settled until the 14th (so a fortnight's time) then 1.05 even on a stone bonking certainty is not compelling. I posted on Sunday when Lewis Hamilton went 1.04 while cruising to the chequered flag. Settlement in a few minutes rather than two weeks. Of course, as @Peter_the_Punter discussed on the last thread, there is no reason Betfair cannot settle now but so far there is no evidence they will.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Strange how these self-styled free thinking, free speaking contrarians all think and speak exactly the same on all topics.

    Which demonstrates how much they've been oppressed. Free the Hartley-Brewer One!
    Yes. They're always being silenced too.
    I know this cos they repeatedly tell me via multiple news channels and newspaper columns several times each day.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't understand the Labour decision to abstain. How can you be neutral on this?

    Starmer is going to back Boris' tiers and Boris' Brexit Deal or at least abstain as a tactical decision to expose Tory rebels on the backbenches who will vote in greater numbers against if Labour are not opposed, while also ensuring both pass.

    Similar to when IDS decided to vote for the Iraq War with the Blair government leading to over 100 Labour rebels voting against or abstaining (only this time IDS will be a leading rebel)
    I don't think there was much underhand tactical calculation with IDS - he was just a NeoCon fanatic who felt that Tone had stolen his thunder. And the Tories never got a shred of political advantage out of Iraq anyway, so pretty stupid even if that was IDS's dastardly intent.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    williamglenn said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Gove promised that people planning to retire to France or Spain would be unaffected.
    They promised the Earth and enough people believed them. Once they had the result they wanted, do you think they really care that they are exposed as liars and fools? They have kept the mists of confusion going for sufficient time to set up their chumocracy and to fill all the correct pockets. Parliament has been sidelined, the Cabinet is a collection of non-entities, yes-men and sycophants.

    Sod the retirees. All that matters now is to siphon as much money as possible out of the system and into their pockets whilst handing out largesse and favours.

    They only need a few years. The rest of us will spend our lives clearing up the mess.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    I like the new designation 'Leavers' and 'Remainers' much more than the old 'Labour' 'Tory' and 'Lib Dem' when it relates to general preferences

    It's a more complete characterisation and less influenced by prevailing winds and ephemera like crackpot leaders.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    https://twitter.com/ProfJimG/status/1333542175393669128?s=20
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Another blast from the Johnson past:

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/743420547682471936
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2020
    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    Like Americans, Australians or Mongolians, UK citizens will be able to apply to retire to France, if they have the means and can get the necessary permission from the French bureaucrats, having 'deposé un dossier' with all the necessary supporting documents, which if my experience of bureaucracy in France is anything to go by won't be a simple matter. They will no longer have the automatic right, nor will they get the healthcare benefits of EU citizens. It requires a very special, Brexiteer, form of abject looniness to claim that "Brexit makes no difference" to the matter, or that the Vienna Convention has anything at all to do with it (and wouldn't do even if France had signed up to it).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2020
    CarlottaVance said:

    https://twitter.com/ProfJimG/status/1333542175393669128?s=20

    Actually even better: if they gross it up by just the basic rate, or even a bit more, it will be just as or more valuable to low-paid NHS workers, and cost the Scottish government less in total.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/1333550563221499905?s=20
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    https://twitter.com/ProfJimG/status/1333542175393669128?s=20

    Actually even better: if they gross it up by just the basic rate, or even a bit more, it will be just as or more valuable to low-paid NHS workers, and cost the Scottish government less in total.
    But then they wouldn't have their grievance.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    ....and Julia Hartley Brewer speaks for every Express reader......

    All six of them....
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    Like Americans, Australians or Mongolians, UK citizens will be able to apply to retire to France, if they have the means and can get the necessary permission from the French bureaucrats, having 'deposé un dossier' with all the necessary supporting documents, which if my experience of bureaucracy in France is anything to go by won't be a simple matter. They will no longer have the automatic right, nor will they get the healthcare benefits of EU citizens. It requires a very special, Brexiteer, form of abject looniness to claim that "Brexit makes no difference" to the matter, or that the Vienna Convention has anything at all to do with it (and wouldn't do even if France had signed up to it).
    Presumably the 'Vienna Convention' came from the same magical mystical place as GATT 24.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    RobD said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    https://twitter.com/ProfJimG/status/1333542175393669128?s=20

    Actually even better: if they gross it up by just the basic rate, or even a bit more, it will be just as or more valuable to low-paid NHS workers, and cost the Scottish government less in total.
    But then they wouldn't have their grievance.
    Which appears to be the whole point of the exercise in the first place.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    And did we properly leverage the genius of Demis and his team at deepminds to model covid, did we bollocks....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1333538030813122561?s=09
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Stark_Dawning said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    Like Americans, Australians or Mongolians, UK citizens will be able to apply to retire to France, if they have the means and can get the necessary permission from the French bureaucrats, having 'deposé un dossier' with all the necessary supporting documents, which if my experience of bureaucracy in France is anything to go by won't be a simple matter. They will no longer have the automatic right, nor will they get the healthcare benefits of EU citizens. It requires a very special, Brexiteer, form of abject looniness to claim that "Brexit makes no difference" to the matter, or that the Vienna Convention has anything at all to do with it (and wouldn't do even if France had signed up to it).
    Presumably the 'Vienna Convention' came from the same magical mystical place as GATT 24.
    Ah yes, I'd forgotten that one. That was quite a meme at one point. Long forgotten now of course, as the loons move on to the next fantasy or post-hoc rationalisation contradicting everything originally promised.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    Have we found where all Dishy Rishi public spending is coming from?

    BBC News - Brazil's Amazon: Deforestation 'surges to 12-year high'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-55130304
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
    While there is more paperwork, that doesn't seem particularly challenging.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
    In France isn't that the standars sort of level of paperwork you normally need to do to buy a new sofa?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited November 2020
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    And did we properly leverage the genius of Demis and his team at deepminds to model covid, did we bollocks....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1333538030813122561?s=09

    DeepMind's work on protein folding is transformational but how exactly would we have utilised this for Covid work? And iirc other tech firms like Amazon and IBM were offering free AI and even quantum computing to researchers.

    It is unfortunate (and unfortunately typical) that yet another groundbreaking British firm was sold to the Americans (viz Google) but perhaps that is a discussion for another day.

    Protein folding -- just rejoice at this news, as Mrs T said in another context.

    ETA and nailed on for a Nobel Prize, one imagines.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited November 2020
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    And did we properly leverage the genius of Demis and his team at deepminds to model covid, did we bollocks....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1333538030813122561?s=09

    DeepMind's work on protein folding is transformational but how exactly would we have utilised this for Covid work? And iirc other tech firms like Amazon and IBM were offering free AI and even quantum computing to researchers.

    It is unfortunate (and unfortunately typical) that yet another groundbreaking British firm was sold to the Americans (viz Google) but perhaps that is a discussion for another day.

    Protein folding -- just rejoice at this news, as Mrs T said in another context.
    Over the past few years, Deepminds have hired 100s of PhDs in Machine Learning. Although their main thrust of work is reinforcement learning, they have incredibly talented and knowledgeable individuals that have backgrounds in a wide range of tasks. They also have the engineering talent and resources to build, test and evolve models quickly.

    The last time I had dinner with one of the fairly senior employees, they said they had a whole large team whose only job was implementing the latest machine learning papers.

    Modelling COVID data is absolutely in their wheelhouse. They have already worked with NHS data on some projects.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    williamglenn said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Another blast from the Johnson past:

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/743420547682471936
    Moved onto bigger and better things. Appearing in Trump infomercials for Fox News.

    Nice one Steve!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
    In France isn't that the standars sort of level of paperwork you normally need to do to buy a new sofa?
    I was completely gobsmacked by French bureaucracy when I went there as a post-grad student in the 1970s, especially in contrast to my experience at Oxford where you turned up at the college, gave your name to the porter, and that was it. At one point I was completely flummoxed because the harridans behind the 'guichet' where I had to present my paperwork demanded a 'livret de famille', which has no equivalent in the UK. Explaining that there was no such thing got me nowhere. Fortunately I was rescued by a wonderful lady at the British Council who told me to leave my passport with her for an hour or so. She photocopied it various different ways up, covered it in stamps, and told me to present that as the 'livret de famille', which worked a treat.

    What was even more hilarious was that you to go through all this palaver every year, despite the fact that your grandmother's maiden name was unlikely to have changed in the interim.

    Mind you, I think the UK has done a good job in catching up with insane bureaucracy in the past three decades.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,128
    edited November 2020
    Stark_Dawning said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't understand the Labour decision to abstain. How can you be neutral on this?

    Starmer is going to back Boris' tiers and Boris' Brexit Deal or at least abstain as a tactical decision to expose Tory rebels on the backbenches who will vote in greater numbers against if Labour are not opposed, while also ensuring both pass.

    Similar to when IDS decided to vote for the Iraq War with the Blair government leading to over 100 Labour rebels voting against or abstaining (only this time IDS will be a leading rebel)
    I don't think there was much underhand tactical calculation with IDS - he was just a NeoCon fanatic who felt that Tone had stolen his thunder. And the Tories never got a shred of political advantage out of Iraq anyway, so pretty stupid even if that was IDS's dastardly intent.
    That is not entirely true, in 2005 the Tories gained 33 seats with just a 0.7% rise in voteshare as significant numbers of Labour voters went LD in protest at the Iraq War. Albeit it was Howard who benefited, not by then IDS
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited November 2020
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Longer prices on the ECV bands have disappeared in the past couple of hours.
    Current Betfair prices:-

    Biden 1.05
    Democrats 1.05
    Biden PV 1.03
    Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.06
    Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.05
    Trump ECV 210-239 1.09
    Biden ECV 300-329 1.08
    Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.05
    Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.07
    Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.01

    AZ Dem 1.05
    GA Dem 1.06
    MI Dem 1.05
    NV Dem 1.05
    PA Dem 1.06
    WI Dem 1.05

    Trump to leave before end of term NO 1.12
    Trump exit date 2021 1.1

    Just staggering. 1.05 on state results which are not only known, but have been officially certified, by the Republican elected officials.
    I think it is the time factor. If the markets will not be settled until the 14th (so a fortnight's time) then 1.05 even on a stone bonking certainty is not compelling. I posted on Sunday when Lewis Hamilton went 1.04 while cruising to the chequered flag. Settlement in a few minutes rather than two weeks. Of course, as @Peter_the_Punter discussed on the last thread, there is no reason Betfair cannot settle now but so far there is no evidence they will.
    There is also the small but far from negligible possibility that Betfair will change the rules again. Why have they picked on Dec 14th? It makes no sense in terms of their original rules. They may as well pick Christmas Day. Or maybe they will go for inauguration day. Or maybe they will decide they are waiting for Trump to concede, in which case they may never settle.

    We are dealing with a capricious market maker. All we can do is hope for the best and never, ever bet with them again.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Roger said:

    ....and Julia Hartley Brewer speaks for every Express reader......

    All six of them....

    There are more than six Roger, but their average reading age is six. Perhaps that is what confused you... :D:D
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Where Arcadia goes...

    https://twitter.com/aarmstrong_says/status/1333518807160287234?s=21
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    CarlottaVance said:

    Where Arcadia goes...

    https://twitter.com/aarmstrong_says/status/1333518807160287234?s=21

    Chavs are going to be outraged.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
    Do both passports have to be in the same name?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    Another example of how any deal can be portrayed as a sell-out if Leavers are not minded to give Boris an easy ride.

    https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/1333545122999504897
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,128
    edited December 2020
    Starmer and Sunak make their first Spitting Image appearances
    https://youtu.be/-tAdOg1OoGk

  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
    In France isn't that the standars sort of level of paperwork you normally need to do to buy a new sofa?
    I was completely gobsmacked by French bureaucracy when I went there as a post-grad student in the 1970s, especially in contrast to my experience at Oxford where you turned up at the college, gave your name to the porter, and that was it. At one point I was completely flummoxed because the harridans behind the 'guichet' where I had to present my paperwork demanded a 'livret de famille', which has no equivalent in the UK. Explaining that there was no such thing got me nowhere. Fortunately I was rescued by a wonderful lady at the British Council who told me to leave my passport with her for an hour or so. She photocopied it various different ways up, covered it in stamps, and told me to present that as the 'livret de famille', which worked a treat.

    What was even more hilarious was that you to go through all this palaver every year, despite the fact that your grandmother's maiden name was unlikely to have changed in the interim.

    Mind you, I think the UK has done a good job in catching up with insane bureaucracy in the past three decades.
    @Roger ‘s list is similar to the one I have to use every couple of years to prove to the school that I am who I say I am, despite having worked there since the last millennium.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,128
    As does Biden

    https://youtu.be/4gG6BJSX4jw
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer and Sunak make their first Spitting Image appearances
    youtu.be/-tAdOg1OoGk

    As basically every one of the new Spitting image sketches, not funny.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    OT Strictly -- I've just noticed
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    And did we properly leverage the genius of Demis and his team at deepminds to model covid, did we bollocks....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1333538030813122561?s=09

    DeepMind's work on protein folding is transformational but how exactly would we have utilised this for Covid work? And iirc other tech firms like Amazon and IBM were offering free AI and even quantum computing to researchers.

    It is unfortunate (and unfortunately typical) that yet another groundbreaking British firm was sold to the Americans (viz Google) but perhaps that is a discussion for another day.

    Protein folding -- just rejoice at this news, as Mrs T said in another context.
    Over the past few years, Deepminds have hired 100s of PhDs in Machine Learning. Although their main thrust of work is reinforcement learning, they have incredibly talented and knowledgeable individuals that have backgrounds in a wide range of tasks. They also have the engineering talent and resources to build, test and evolve models quickly.

    The last time I had dinner with one of the fairly senior employees, they said they had a whole large team whose only job was implementing the latest machine learning papers.

    Modelling COVID data is absolutely in their wheelhouse. They have already worked with NHS data on some projects.
    Yes, I do not doubt they have the brain power and computing power to do it but Google and not HMG pays the piper.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,590
    O/T

    "One of biology's biggest mysteries 'largely solved' by AI"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-55133972
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Fysics_Teacher said:



    @Roger ‘s list is similar to the one I have to use every couple of years to prove to the school that I am who I say I am, despite having worked there since the last millennium.

    When I was MP for Broxtowe I thought I ought really to move my RBS bank branch from London to the constituency - put down local roots and all that. They had a 4-page form and multiple identity requirements, despite the fact that I visited the branch regularly, they all knew me personally, and it was THE SAME BANK.

    I gave up, and to this day my bank account is in the Kensington branch where I opened it more than 50 years ago. I haven't been there for decades, and for all I know it no longer exists.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Calling JHB a contrarian is a terribly polite response.

    How big a faction is she in? Herself, Trump, and Jeremy Corbyn’s brother. The three of them. And what they need to know it’s actually the rest of us who won’t forget what this lunatic fringe came out with.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    NickPalmer said:

    Fysics_Teacher said:



    @Roger ‘s list is similar to the one I have to use every couple of years to prove to the school that I am who I say I am, despite having worked there since the last millennium.

    When I was MP for Broxtowe I thought I ought really to move my RBS bank branch from London to the constituency - put down local roots and all that. They had a 4-page form and multiple identity requirements, despite the fact that I visited the branch regularly, they all knew me personally, and it was THE SAME BANK.

    I gave up, and to this day my bank account is in the Kensington branch where I opened it more than 50 years ago. I haven't been there for decades, and for all I know it no longer exists.
    That does not surprise me.

    In my experience, NatWest/RBS are the single most incompetent organisation in the UK.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,590
    edited December 2020
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
    In France isn't that the standars sort of level of paperwork you normally need to do to buy a new sofa?
    I was completely gobsmacked by French bureaucracy when I went there as a post-grad student in the 1970s, especially in contrast to my experience at Oxford where you turned up at the college, gave your name to the porter, and that was it. At one point I was completely flummoxed because the harridans behind the 'guichet' where I had to present my paperwork demanded a 'livret de famille', which has no equivalent in the UK. Explaining that there was no such thing got me nowhere. Fortunately I was rescued by a wonderful lady at the British Council who told me to leave my passport with her for an hour or so. She photocopied it various different ways up, covered it in stamps, and told me to present that as the 'livret de famille', which worked a treat.

    What was even more hilarious was that you to go through all this palaver every year, despite the fact that your grandmother's maiden name was unlikely to have changed in the interim.

    Mind you, I think the UK has done a good job in catching up with insane bureaucracy in the past three decades.
    One of the best things about this country was how you almost never got asked for ID, except at airports. Unfortunately in the last 10 years or so that's started to change.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    gealbhan said:

    Calling JHB a contrarian is a terribly polite response.

    How big a faction is she in? Herself, Trump, and Jeremy Corbyn’s brother. The three of them. And what they need to know it’s actually the rest of us who won’t forget what this lunatic fringe came out with.

    Piers Corbyn does know some science, although he seems to be in need of therapy. He was a gifted physicist when young, but nowadays he has the demeanour of a frustrated & disappointed man.

    Trump & Hartley-Brewer know no science. Their ignorance is elephantine. Tiny brains and colossal egos.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    https://twitter.com/theleadcnn/status/1333539332330643456?s=21
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/theleadcnn/status/1333539332330643456?s=21

    China attempted to hide the severity of their Covid problems? Who would have thunk it?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    edited December 2020
    Nine states certified results yesterday (Monday).

    In total 36 states have now certified. So 15 to go (inc DC).

    See link - note due dates are only approximate - as you can see some dates have been missed, others have certified early.

    All six states which Trump is disputing have now certified - ie PA, MI, WI, GA, AZ, NV.

    https://www.270towin.com/news/2020/11/22/interactive-map-states-certifying-2020-presidential-election-results_1131.html
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,590
    edited December 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/theleadcnn/status/1333539332330643456?s=21

    China attempted to hide the severity of their Covid problems? Who would have thunk it?
    I think it's correct that according to their official figures no-one has died of Covid-19 in China for about 6 months, which is difficult to believe to put it mildly.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    edited December 2020
    Important (per The Times):

    LEGISLATION TO REPEAL THE FIXED TERM PARLIAMENTS ACT IS BEING PUBLISHED TODAY.

    Seem to recall someone (or maybe several people?) posting on here that this couldn't be done as it would mean restoring a royal prerogative. Well, not sure whether or not that's correct but Boris appears to think he can do it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    MikeL said:

    Important (per The Times):

    LEGISLATION TO REPEAL THE FIXED TERM PARLIAMENTS ACT IS BEING PUBLISHED TODAY.

    Seem to recall someone (or maybe several people?) posting on here that this couldn't be done as it would mean restoring a royal prerogative. Well, not sure whether or not that's correct but Boris appears to think he can do it.

    Boris Johnson will start to claw back the power to call an election today with a warning to judges to keep out of decisions to bring parliaments to a close.

    Legislation repealing the Fixed-term Parliaments Act (FTPA) is published today, with ministers seeking to restore the power to go to the country conferred by royal prerogative, according to senior government sources.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-will-take-back-power-to-call-elections-hlzn53nd9

    We'll skip over the whole limiting the power of the courts thing. I'm not sure who "senior government sources" are now that Dominic Cummings has left but The Times could more easily have read it on the BBC "the week ahead" site at the weekend.

    Unfixing terms: having twice driven a coach and horses through the coalition-era requirement that general elections should be five years apart, with the early elections of 2017 and 2019, it's rumoured that the government's about to publish a draft bill to repeal Nick Clegg's Fixed Term Parliament Act, thereby providing a bonanza for constitutional scholars and procedural hair-splitters. Can they reconstruct the Royal Prerogative? How long should a Parliament last? Will prime ministers once more have the power to spring a snap election on a slumbering opposition? All this and more will be fought out in a new joint parliamentary committee under former Conservative Chief Whip, Lord McLoughlin. Anoraks will be worn.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55105735
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    MikeL said:

    Important (per The Times):

    LEGISLATION TO REPEAL THE FIXED TERM PARLIAMENTS ACT IS BEING PUBLISHED TODAY.

    Seem to recall someone (or maybe several people?) posting on here that this couldn't be done as it would mean restoring a royal prerogative. Well, not sure whether or not that's correct but Boris appears to think he can do it.

    Even if you can't restore the Royal prerogative, you can legislate to reestablish a functionally equivalent power.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    MikeL said:

    Important (per The Times):

    LEGISLATION TO REPEAL THE FIXED TERM PARLIAMENTS ACT IS BEING PUBLISHED TODAY.

    Seem to recall someone (or maybe several people?) posting on here that this couldn't be done as it would mean restoring a royal prerogative. Well, not sure whether or not that's correct but Boris appears to think he can do it.

    Boris Johnson will start to claw back the power to call an election today with a warning to judges to keep out of decisions to bring parliaments to a close.

    Legislation repealing the Fixed-term Parliaments Act (FTPA) is published today, with ministers seeking to restore the power to go to the country conferred by royal prerogative, according to senior government sources.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-will-take-back-power-to-call-elections-hlzn53nd9

    We'll skip over the whole limiting the power of the courts thing. I'm not sure who "senior government sources" are now that Dominic Cummings has left but The Times could more easily have read it on the BBC "the week ahead" site at the weekend.

    Unfixing terms: having twice driven a coach and horses through the coalition-era requirement that general elections should be five years apart, with the early elections of 2017 and 2019, it's rumoured that the government's about to publish a draft bill to repeal Nick Clegg's Fixed Term Parliament Act, thereby providing a bonanza for constitutional scholars and procedural hair-splitters. Can they reconstruct the Royal Prerogative? How long should a Parliament last? Will prime ministers once more have the power to spring a snap election on a slumbering opposition? All this and more will be fought out in a new joint parliamentary committee under former Conservative Chief Whip, Lord McLoughlin. Anoraks will be worn.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55105735
    They're simply going to allow parliaments to run and run. No Generals from now on, just occasional by-elections when people die.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697
    rcs1000 said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    MikeL said:

    Important (per The Times):

    LEGISLATION TO REPEAL THE FIXED TERM PARLIAMENTS ACT IS BEING PUBLISHED TODAY.

    Seem to recall someone (or maybe several people?) posting on here that this couldn't be done as it would mean restoring a royal prerogative. Well, not sure whether or not that's correct but Boris appears to think he can do it.

    Boris Johnson will start to claw back the power to call an election today with a warning to judges to keep out of decisions to bring parliaments to a close.

    Legislation repealing the Fixed-term Parliaments Act (FTPA) is published today, with ministers seeking to restore the power to go to the country conferred by royal prerogative, according to senior government sources.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-will-take-back-power-to-call-elections-hlzn53nd9

    We'll skip over the whole limiting the power of the courts thing. I'm not sure who "senior government sources" are now that Dominic Cummings has left but The Times could more easily have read it on the BBC "the week ahead" site at the weekend.

    Unfixing terms: having twice driven a coach and horses through the coalition-era requirement that general elections should be five years apart, with the early elections of 2017 and 2019, it's rumoured that the government's about to publish a draft bill to repeal Nick Clegg's Fixed Term Parliament Act, thereby providing a bonanza for constitutional scholars and procedural hair-splitters. Can they reconstruct the Royal Prerogative? How long should a Parliament last? Will prime ministers once more have the power to spring a snap election on a slumbering opposition? All this and more will be fought out in a new joint parliamentary committee under former Conservative Chief Whip, Lord McLoughlin. Anoraks will be worn.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55105735
    They're simply going to allow parliaments to run and run. No Generals from now on, just occasional by-elections when people die.
    I thought you were going to say, "No Generals, just Colonels."
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Roger said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1333493934023192579

    Hasn’t the WA protected the rights of U.K. citizens resident in France?

    It’s visitors who have been complaining about the “90 days in 180” today.

    Wonder when we’ll reciprocate?
    Well it was a characteristically incoherent tweet by our PM whose use of English is slapdash, but UK residents aren't citizens resident outside the UK, so it's unclear quite what he meant. Either way it has turned out to be garbage on three counts: 1. The rights of UK citizens resident in the UK have certainly been adversely affected, for example they can't spend more than 90 days in the EU country in a year without a visa, and can't retire there. 2. UK citizens resident in the EU have been affected in multiple ways, for example in freedom to move to other EU countries and on healthcare. And 3. The Vienna Convention is 100% irrelevant to the matter irrespective of anything else.
    1 It’s 90 days in any 180 - so could be up to 180 days in a year.
    2 Americans can retire to France, why wouldn’t UK citizens be able to?
    https://internationalliving.com/countries/france/retire/
    At the moment you just need a passport to get you there. From your link;



    A passport, signed and valid for three months after the last day of stay
    One application forms, signed and legibly filled out
    One passport-size photo glued/stapled to the form
    A current passport
    Proof of means of income
    Proof of medical insurance
    Proof of accommodation in France
    Proof of legal status in North America (copy of green card, etc.)
    Letter promising not to engage in employment in France
    Marriage certificate, if applicable
    Processing fees
    An e-ticket or reservation record showing date of departure to France
    One long-term residence form, which must be completed, dated, signed, and notarized
    Most of that list is needed now if you want to reside in a EU country.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    The Fixed Term Parliament Act...an old PB favourite, FWIW it has definitely run its course if it ever really ran after the 2015 election....goodness knows what they replace it with but I sense that it will inevitably be messy and to no-one's satisfaction.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited December 2020
    williamglenn said:

    twitter.com/theleadcnn/status/1333539332330643456?s=21

    In that report the numbers aren't as fudged by as much as the west has already said they think they were.

    The big revelation that they were taking 3 weeks to return a test if somebody was positive or not. And that two other cities had seen big spikes in "flu" before all the stuff about the market.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    https://twitter.com/jwangARK/status/1333458381546274817?s=19

    https://twitter.com/jwangARK/status/1333495315572277249?s=19
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    RIP Ben Bova.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    This means war.....

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/01/stealing-our-culture-south-koreans-upset-after-china-claims-kimchi-as-its-own
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Andy_JS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/theleadcnn/status/1333539332330643456?s=21

    China attempted to hide the severity of their Covid problems? Who would have thunk it?
    I think it's correct that according to their official figures no-one has died of Covid-19 in China for about 6 months, which is difficult to believe to put it mildly.
    Actually, I find it quite easy to believe. People who are smothered or given lethal injections didn’t die of COVID-19, even if they were going to otherwise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1333426148571709447
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    Is this a portent of Trump’s imminent departure ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/01/german-police-investigate-after-giant-phallic-monument-vanishes
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    NickPalmer said:

    Fysics_Teacher said:



    @Roger ‘s list is similar to the one I have to use every couple of years to prove to the school that I am who I say I am, despite having worked there since the last millennium.

    When I was MP for Broxtowe I thought I ought really to move my RBS bank branch from London to the constituency - put down local roots and all that. They had a 4-page form and multiple identity requirements, despite the fact that I visited the branch regularly, they all knew me personally, and it was THE SAME BANK.

    I gave up, and to this day my bank account is in the Kensington branch where I opened it more than 50 years ago. I haven't been there for decades, and for all I know it no longer exists.
    If you'd been a Russian with a billion or so for the current account I suspect they'd have been falling over themselves!
    Three or four years ago, as (then) Secretary and therefore a cheque signatory of a small local charity(t/o ca £5k pa) I had to go some 20 miles to what was now the nearest branch of our bank as we wanted to reorganise our accounts. Took something like an hour to go through all the details. I had to take my passport, a couple of household bills and details of my personal banking, as well of course as a copy of the Minutes of the committee meeting at which the decision had been made, agreed by the members and counter-signed by the Chair.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    https://twitter.com/jwangARK/status/1333458381546274817?s=19

    https://twitter.com/jwangARK/status/1333495315572277249?s=19

    The scientific advances at the tail end of 2020, happening right under our very noses right here, right now, will be looked back on in 10, 20, 100 years as giant leaps for humankind.

    It's gobsmacking what is happening. This one above is astounding. So too is the mRNA revolutionary breakthrough. The technology will open up all manner of new treatments as well as bring an end to the wretched virus.

    An incredible, fantastic, moment to be alive.

    And, I have to say, a stunning achievement by the UK Gov't to secure large quantities of vaccines from 7 different trial producers.

    Back to the protein discovery though: it's a breakthrough moment in understanding life.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    I have no objection to Covid restrictions - they are clearly needed and frankly the "lockdown" we have just had should have been a Lockdown. I do object to the latest Tiers though - they are punitive and illogical. Unless Dishy Rishi is persuaded to part with flipping great wodges of cash I can see the proposals being defeated.

    Labour's decision to abstention before this is debated is I am afraid a sign of the party's utter disconnection with reality. They are so busy fighting each other and so far removed from the thoughts of both current and former Labour voters that they have decided that the safest course of action is not to turn up. They clearly think the proposal is wrong. Will berate the government for it all through the debate. Then abstain. What is the point of them?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    LadyG said:

    I've started talking to myself. And I don't mean the odd muttering. Proper conversations. By me with me.

    Lockdown 2 needs to end SOON

    He’s been talking to himself on here for years...

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Good morning, everyone.

    You can back Bottas and Verstappen at 5.5 and 6 on Ladbrokes to win. And should:
    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1333671286296489984
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    On the point about Covid-19 vaccination, I assume there'll be a certificate if some sort.

    Similar to an ID card?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1333673468257333249
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    OldKingCole said:

    On the point about Covid-19 vaccination, I assume there'll be a certificate if some sort.

    Similar to an ID card?

    Presumably.

    For yellow fever you get an International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis, in a form authorised by the WHO. It would seem sensible to have international standards for covid certificates too. Don't know if this is the intention.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1333673468257333249

    An opportunity for VanDonkey?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Another bet you may want to consider is Albon or Perez to win each way (third the odds top 2) in case woe befalls one of the top 2. You can get those at 61 with Ladbrokes, with boost, until the odds change.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited December 2020
    i-liar....

    Apple fined €10M by Italian watchdog over iPhone waterproofing claims

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/11/30/21726287/italy-apple-fine-iphone-waterproofing-warranty
This discussion has been closed.