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On Betfair you can still place bets on Biden being next president – politicalbetting.com

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  • The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    We're doomed but at least we lived long enough to see Trump kicked out.
    And that's before mutation minky covid....
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    Is there anywhere in Europe where it isn't? Germany isn't looking good this time. Hows Greece going?
    Apparently lockdown soon.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,593
    edited November 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    I
    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    For those people advocating electing a POTUS by popular vote, that would be fine if the margin was always 4 or 5 million votes. If the margin was 4000, you have a big problem.
    And it is a feature/bug of FPTP 2-party systems that sooner rather than later you will get a close result.
    Yes, but you are not electing people to represent the states, as you are in the senate. The president represents the whole country and should be elected directly with a direct mandate based on OPOV.
    The main argument people put forward against OPOV is that you could have a situation where at every election the biggest 10 states vote one way and the other 40 the other way and the 10 biggest always get their way. I don't have a problem with that but a lot of Americans apparently do because the individual states are such an important aspect of the nation for them.
  • The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    By comparison the UK currently has around 13k in hospital and around 1.2k in ICU while in April maxed out at 19k in hospital and 3.3k in ICU.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    Is Johnson still hoping for special treatment from the US? Mehinks it would be better for the country for the Conservative MPs to ditch Johnson PDQ.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited November 2020

    Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    Is it though...Eastern Europe, is still very popular e.g. Poland re-elected one. Australia voted for a very right wing government. Macron is very unpopular on France, with Le Pen waiting in the wings.
    Macron will still be re elected in the run off, Morrison was actually the more moderate candidate to succeed Turnbull over Dutton, closer to Boris than Trump, Italy is probably the only western nation left which might swing to rightwing populism with Salvini but that is touch and go, it is feasible Germany could even see a Green chancellor next year backed by the SPD and Linke as Merkel is not contesting the 2021 elections and the CDU will not touch the AFD.

    In the developing world Brazil has Bolosonaro and India still has Modi and of course Russia still has Putin, China has Xi who is not really populist though authoritarian, Netanyahu hands over to Gantz as Israeli PM next year
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    I believe Trump was calling for the scrapping of the electoral college before the 2012 election when there was a chance Obama would win the EC while narrowly losing the popular vote.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2020
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    Brexit happened in January, though an EU UK trade deal is now more likely than No Deal
  • MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    Is it though...Eastern Europe, is still very popular e.g. Poland re-elected one. Australia voted for a very right wing government. Macron is very unpopular on France, with Le Pen waiting in the wings.
    Right wing populism is still very much there because a large part of the population feels as though it has been sh*t upon from a large height. Anyone who thinks it is going away is very much mistaken.
    It isn't just right wing popularism either. Look at Corbyn, attracting a different demographic, but with similar grievences that the system doesn't work for them and proposing simplistic unrealistic answers....robots are coming, ban driverless trains...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
    Brown increased the top tax rate to 50% and it is still higher now than under Blair
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    Is there anywhere in Europe where it isn't? Germany isn't looking good this time. Hows Greece going?
    Going tits up. Back in lockdown
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    Is it though...Eastern Europe, is still very popular e.g. Poland re-elected one. Australia voted for a very right wing government. Macron is very unpopular on France, with Le Pen waiting in the wings.
    Right wing populism is still very much there because a large part of the population feels as though it has been sh*t upon from a large height. Anyone who thinks it is going away is very much mistaken.
    Might shift to left wing Populism though. Its one hell of a recession coming.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,603
    Scott_xP said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1325167976073490432
    Crossover on the EMA.

    Reminder: The EMA is an Exponential Moving Average of all polls where the latest poll comes in with a 10% weight and the previous running average has a 90% weight.

    Con 39.5%
    Lab 39.6%
    Con 24 short of a majority



  • Foxy said:

    The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    Is there anywhere in Europe where it isn't? Germany isn't looking good this time. Hows Greece going?
    Going tits up. Back in lockdown
    Summer holiday season...what a genius plan that was by european leaders.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:
    That links up with the Wisconsin story. An interesting 72 hours.
    Sorry Mr Ed, what was the Wisconsin story?
  • On the one hand with COVID it's concerning to see crowds.

    On the other hand the sheer joy and jubilation and relief on the streets of the USA is a beautiful sight after such a difficult year.

    And not a militarised police officer in sight.
  • CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    Is it though...Eastern Europe, is still very popular e.g. Poland re-elected one. Australia voted for a very right wing government. Macron is very unpopular on France, with Le Pen waiting in the wings.
    Right wing populism is still very much there because a large part of the population feels as though it has been sh*t upon from a large height. Anyone who thinks it is going away is very much mistaken.
    Might shift to left wing Populism though. Its one hell of a recession coming.
    Mostly, Biden, Arden etc it is a shift to social democracy not socialism
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    And Boris described Trump very poorly in the past, compared to when he PM. Biden won't likely speak about world leaders so blithely when he is once again in office. Though as US president he can get away with it more than most.
  • Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    I
    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    For those people advocating electing a POTUS by popular vote, that would be fine if the margin was always 4 or 5 million votes. If the margin was 4000, you have a big problem.
    And it is a feature/bug of FPTP 2-party systems that sooner rather than later you will get a close result.
    Yes, but you are not electing people to represent the states, as you are in the senate. The president represents the whole country and should be elected directly with a direct mandate based on OPOV.
    The main argument people put forward against OPOV is that you could have a situation where at every election the biggest 10 states vote one way and the other 40 the other way and the 10 biggest always get their way. I don't have a problem with that but a lot of Americans apparently do because the individual states are such an important aspect of the nation for them.
    You can actually win the EC with just the 11 biggest states.
  • Foxy said:

    The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    Is there anywhere in Europe where it isn't? Germany isn't looking good this time. Hows Greece going?
    Going tits up. Back in lockdown
    Summer holiday season...what a genius plan that was by european leaders.
    Some at least had the excuse that it would boost their economies.

    Those who encouraged their people to travel to other countries to spend money reached an even higher level of imbecility.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:
    That links up with the Wisconsin story. An interesting 72 hours.
    Sorry Mr Ed, what was the Wisconsin story?
    The lie that the number of votes exceeded eligible voters.

    Registration is allowed on the day and therefore was false I think its in here along with lots more debunking

    https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1324435797374808066
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    Pulpstar said:

    Trump's biggest mistake this election was to shit on VBM. Suppressed his own senior vote I reckon

    Could be that he thought he would lose by more (EC wise it may not end up close, but several key states ended up pretty tight) and so prioritised building his narrative for defending his loss than winning? DOesn't really square with his energetic campaigning, but it is odd.
  • I would like to think the military chain of command now includes a check-in with the new president elect before any major actions.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited November 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    For those people advocating electing a POTUS by popular vote, that would be fine if the margin was always 4 or 5 million votes. If the margin was 4000, you have a big problem.
    And it is a feature/bug of FPTP 2-party systems that sooner rather than later you will get a close result.
    Yes, but you are not electing people to represent the states, as you are in the senate. The president represents the whole country and should be elected directly with a direct mandate based on OPOV.
    But the strength of your argument is essentially starting from the premise that the USA is a unitary country, whereas in principle it's (as you are well aware) federal. The federal machinery, including the presidency and all its powers, is precisely the bits the States have chosen to delegate up to it. As the centuries have ground on, the USA has ended up much closer to the unitary model than its founders might have anticipated (or maybe desired - but they're dead now, so not convinced their opinion should count for all that much) and there is clearly a case that the El Presidente should represent, in a more direct way, the people of the United States as a single demos. Yet such a conception of America is not the not the only one, certainly not the historical one, and neither obviously nor overwhelmingly the "correct" one. It would involve a fundamental shift in what the very words "United States" are taken to mean.

    So I find "people vote for the President, so he/she represents them, and the electoral majority should decide" argument is rather too superficial in this context. You'd also need something to replace the Electoral College in the event of no candidate receiving a majority - to be fair, the EC is something that's not historically done a great job whenever it's been called upon, and this would actually be, in terms of stability, something of an advantage of system change - so we could have endless fun on PB debating whether they should switch to AV or use a run-off system. (In my opinion run-offs are the "more American" solution, whereas AV might be more "efficient"...)
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,603

    The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    By comparison the UK currently has around 13k in hospital and around 1.2k in ICU while in April maxed out at 19k in hospital and 3.3k in ICU.
    I make the R for the UK for:

    Admissions 1.10
    Ventilators 1.21
    Deaths 1.29

    R coming down in all three categories.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Fox News were saying hrs ago all the claims of fraud so far have no actual evidence base and this needs to be produced quick if it is to remain plausible
  • CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.

    Only agree to it if they sign the paperwork for the 25th Amendment.
  • On the one hand with COVID it's concerning to see crowds.

    On the other hand the sheer joy and jubilation and relief on the streets of the USA is a beautiful sight after such a difficult year.

    And not a militarised police officer in sight.

    I'm just watching a video which quotes a study claiming that Trump's rallies may have killed 700 people though spreading C-19.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    For those people advocating electing a POTUS by popular vote, that would be fine if the margin was always 4 or 5 million votes. If the margin was 4000, you have a big problem.
    And it is a feature/bug of FPTP 2-party systems that sooner rather than later you will get a close result.
    When has the margin ever been anything like 4000?

    Even in 1960, the closest ever election by popular vote margin %, the difference was over 100000.
    The closest since then, in 2000, Gore got over half a million more votes.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited November 2020
    There will be no special relationship between the US and UK. It's dubious whether it has existed since Reagan and Thatcher but it's certainly gone cold now. Joe Biden is Irish (his words) and passionately believes in the EU and the Northern Irish peace process.

    Johnson is frozen out.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-victory-spells-trouble-uk-us-relations-boris-johnson-2020-11?r=US&IR=T

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    Scott_xP said:

    Has Boris congratulated Biden yet?

    Barely.
    You say barely, but the statements from Macron and Trudeau, to name but two, were no different. This 'has he congratulated quick enough? Oh he has, well it is not strong enough' is just plain silly. Most of us are happy enough that Biden's win is confirmed without reallllllly stretching things.
  • There will be no special relationship between the US and UK. It's dubious whether it has existed since Reagan and Thatcher but it's certainly gone cold now. Joe Biden is Irish (his words) and passionately believes in the EU and the Northern Irish peace process.

    Johnson is frozen out.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-victory-spells-trouble-uk-us-relations-boris-johnson-2020-11?r=US&IR=T

    Bush/Blair?
  • The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    We're doomed but at least we lived long enough to see Trump kicked out.
    And that's before mutation minky covid....
    Mink farmed for fur for the Chinese market, ironically!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    The covid figures in Europe are looking really bad.

    Poland:
    - New cases: 27,875
    - Positivity rate: 41.7% (+9)
    - In hospital: 20,249 (+770)
    - On ventilator: 1,813 (+110)
    - New deaths: 349

    Italy:
    - New cases: 39,811
    - Positivity rate: 28.9% (+0.8)
    - In hospital: 25,109 (+1,104)
    - In ICU: 2,634 (+119)
    - New deaths: 425

    By comparison the UK currently has around 13k in hospital and around 1.2k in ICU while in April maxed out at 19k in hospital and 3.3k in ICU.
    I wouldn't be too complacent. We are all in different phases of the wave.

    It's being so cheerful wot keeps me going.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    We never saw the bad things, but they definitely happened!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    And you’ve been posting here for several years, Charles...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    There will be no special relationship between the US and UK. It's dubious whether it has existed since Reagan and Thatcher but it's certainly gone cold now. Joe Biden is Irish (his words) and passionately believes in the EU and the Northern Irish peace process.

    Johnson is frozen out.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-victory-spells-trouble-uk-us-relations-boris-johnson-2020-11?r=US&IR=T

    Democratic Presidents normally prefer Paris or Berlin to London anyway, Obama for instance was closer to Merkel than Brown or Cameron and Biden will be the same.

    The 'special relationship' tends to really only mean something under Republican Presidents eg Reagan and Thatcher or Bush and Blair or Boris and Trump excluding the exceptional case of FDR and Churchill in WW2
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Scott_xP said:
    Did he lose at golf today too or did he beat some LOSER

    Like Biden has
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    There will be no special relationship between the US and UK. It's dubious whether it has existed since Reagan and Thatcher but it's certainly gone cold now. Joe Biden is Irish (his words) and passionately believes in the EU and the Northern Irish peace process.

    Johnson is frozen out.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-victory-spells-trouble-uk-us-relations-boris-johnson-2020-11?r=US&IR=T

    Bush/Blair?
    Yes fair comment. Silly me.

    So, since Bush / Blair :wink:
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    kle4 said:

    You say barely, but the statements from Macron and Trudeau, to name but two, were no different. This 'has he congratulated quick enough? Oh he has, well it is not strong enough' is just plain silly. Most of us are happy enough that Biden's win is confirmed without reallllllly stretching things.

    If you think BoZo is happy about Biden's win, I have a bridge for sale...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    I'll give him this at least - other people have been acting pretty silly about the total number of votes, never mind population increases, so him focusing on the raw number is one of his lesser idiocies.
  • CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.

    Only agree to it if they sign the paperwork for the 25th Amendment.
    CNN were suggesting that Barr was working on it for Trump to sign.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    kle4 said:

    I'll give him this at least - other people have been acting pretty silly about the total number of votes, never mind population increases, so him focusing on the raw number is one of his lesser idiocies.
    TBF its his most accurate tweet for weeks

    If only he had used this line rather than the fraud bollocks since Tuesday
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    You say barely, but the statements from Macron and Trudeau, to name but two, were no different. This 'has he congratulated quick enough? Oh he has, well it is not strong enough' is just plain silly. Most of us are happy enough that Biden's win is confirmed without reallllllly stretching things.

    If you think BoZo is happy about Biden's win, I have a bridge for sale...
    What does his being happy about it have to do with whether he had congratulated Biden, and not barely, but in the exact same standard diplomatic way of other leaders? He did, so it is just plain false to imply his congratulations were bare or lacking. If you think it insincere or that he has trouble on his hands as a result of the outcome, policy wise, that's a completely different thing. As ever, we should criticise Boris for things he says or does, he provides plenty of opportunity without criticising him for things he did not do, like not be quick or effusive enough in his congratulations.
  • Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    If only. We're stuck with it for a generation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Scott_xP said:
    Did he lose at golf today too or did he beat some LOSER

    Like Biden has
    Doesn't he always play with people who deliberately lose to him?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited November 2020
    In some ways that 71m votes meme, beloved of HYUFD, is a godsend. It gives Trump's miniscule brain something to latch onto whilst he is carted away from the White House. And over the years ahead until his dying breath it will be how he manages to deal with his hubris: 'I won more votes than any sitting President.'

    If he's still around for 20 years that's likely to be surpassed because the population of the US is growing. But to be honest, if it means a peaceful transition let's grant the odious fool the meme that gets him through the next 74 days.
  • CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.

    I believe (from memory and this may be incorrect) there is some legal doubt about the legal effectiveness of a president pardoning himself. Now in practice, not all of Trump's legal problems are going to come from federal authorities so perhaps the pardon isn't so important anyway. But just to be on the safe side, is it possible we'll see President Pence have a few days at the helm to sign as much as possible to keep the lawyers happy? Not sure whether this has figured into discussion of possible Trump resignation before handover.
  • The article was posted here a week ago but this bit stood out:

    In January, after Wuhan was stricken, quite a few countries responded to China’s appeal for help by sending face masks and other supplies. Beijing asked them not to publicize their donations so that it would not lose face.

    But not much later, the virus spread beyond China’s borders and countries that had sent aid to China themselves faced critical shortages. Beijing then relished the role of benefactor, sending — in many cases selling — needed supplies, some of which were defective.


    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/10/27/commentary/world-commentary/china-developed-world-negative-sentiment/

    I wonder which countries donated PPE to China ?

    If they had shortages a few weeks later it might be a bit embarrassing.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.

    Sorry to post my own tweets but...

    https://twitter.com/twitonatrain/status/1325188766185631745

    As I have said Biden is probably enough of an absolute idiot to pardon Trump. But the pardoning if Nixon was a mistake of gigantic proportion.

    It set the precedent that if you were in power you could do any crime you wanted and not get prosecuted.

    If the Rule of Law is to mean anything then the people at the top must have it applied to them as well.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    On the one hand with COVID it's concerning to see crowds.

    On the other hand the sheer joy and jubilation and relief on the streets of the USA is a beautiful sight after such a difficult year.

    And not a militarised police officer in sight.

    I'm just watching a video which quotes a study claiming that Trump's rallies may have killed 700 people though spreading C-19.
    Let’s hope they didn’t mail in their votes before they died.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    I find the implication of many thoughts like this that we are too weak to act on our own until the americans have led the way in sweeping out such populism to be rather depressing and infantilising. I know that's not the intention, it's that we are/will be part of a general global trend, but with it being seen as such a watershed moment of inevitability it feels like unintentional admission that we were powerless until they acted first, and that elections in other places where populists were defeated or never even had a look in should feel upset they were not heralded as the dawn of a new age.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited November 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    Did he lose at golf today too or did he beat some LOSER

    Like Biden has
    He never loses at golf.

    "I love golf and he has set the game back 30 years. Just when it was becoming cool with Rory McIlroy and Rickie Fowler we get this fat bozo cheating his ass off.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/dec/10/rick-reilly-donald-trump-golf-commander-in-cheat-book-interview

  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited November 2020
    Alistair said:

    CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.


    As I have said Biden is probably enough of an absolute idiot to pardon Trump.
    That shows you very little about Biden. He won't pardon Trump.

    Joe Biden has a long memory for things. For example, he will never forgive Johnson for the half Kenyan comment about Obama.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
    Brown increased the top tax rate to 50% and it is still higher now than under Blair
    No UK politician since 1979 has had any intention of tackling the issue of the wealth gap getting larger apart from the LOSER in 2017 & 2019.

    The British electorate dont see it as a priority
  • Charles said:
    Isnt she the one that gave Trump a full state visit.
    Bloody well hope that's not a euphemism for something!! I need to sleep tonight!!
    Well, he didn't get a ride up The Mall..
  • kamski said:

    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    For those people advocating electing a POTUS by popular vote, that would be fine if the margin was always 4 or 5 million votes. If the margin was 4000, you have a big problem.
    And it is a feature/bug of FPTP 2-party systems that sooner rather than later you will get a close result.
    When has the margin ever been anything like 4000?

    Even in 1960, the closest ever election by popular vote margin %, the difference was over 100000.
    The closest since then, in 2000, Gore got over half a million more votes.
    Bush v Gore Florida was settled by 537 which pro-rata'd across the country would be far, far closer than 100k.

    When two parties are both seeking to get 50%+1 then getting closer can be natural.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425
    IanB2 said:

    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    For those people advocating electing a POTUS by popular vote, that would be fine if the margin was always 4 or 5 million votes. If the margin was 4000, you have a big problem.
    And it is a feature/bug of FPTP 2-party systems that sooner rather than later you will get a close result.
    Yes, but you are not electing people to represent the states, as you are in the senate. The president represents the whole country and should be elected directly with a direct mandate based on OPOV.
    The US is a Federal Republic - it was a very deliberate decision not to have a direct election for President. It would only serve to make the Presidency more powerful to do so, and arguably it's already too powerful.

    They might be better to make it a bit less powerful. I was wondering about a rotating Presidency among the Governors of the States, six months at a time, perhaps...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    FPT
    malcolmg said:

    » show previous quotes
    I am perfectly happy for Birmingham to be independent if it so wishes , my only beef is the English parliament preventing Scotland having democracy. I have nothing against any English person other than if they are preventing Scotland having democracy.

    Last say the Westminster parliament on the matter was to authorise the Scottish referendum...
    That is utter bollox , a majority Scottish wish for a referendum has been denied 3 x by English government. No democracy in the UK , banana republic run by crooks.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,699

    IanB2 said:

    Starry said:

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    If Democrat candidates for President were winning through the electoral college, but narrowly losing the national popular vote at the same time, we'd hear far less of this argument.
    Nonsense. The Republicans are already complaining even though they lost both the popular vote and the EC. Think what would happen if Trump had won the popular vote but lost the EC?!
    For those people advocating electing a POTUS by popular vote, that would be fine if the margin was always 4 or 5 million votes. If the margin was 4000, you have a big problem.
    And it is a feature/bug of FPTP 2-party systems that sooner rather than later you will get a close result.
    Yes, but you are not electing people to represent the states, as you are in the senate. The president represents the whole country and should be elected directly with a direct mandate based on OPOV.
    The US is a Federal Republic - it was a very deliberate decision not to have a direct election for President. It would only serve to make the Presidency more powerful to do so, and arguably it's already too powerful.

    They might be better to make it a bit less powerful. I was wondering about a rotating Presidency among the Governors of the States, six months at a time, perhaps...
    So the US could be more like the EU?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    Scott_xP said:
    The pigs are at the trough, snouts are deep in the public purse. The Tories do not even hide it now, they just steal the money openly.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Charles said:
    Isnt she the one that gave Trump a full state visit.
    Bloody well hope that's not a euphemism for something!! I need to sleep tonight!!
    Well, he didn't get a ride up The Mall..
    She helped him downstairs though
  • Alistair said:

    CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.

    Sorry to post my own tweets but...

    https://twitter.com/twitonatrain/status/1325188766185631745

    As I have said Biden is probably enough of an absolute idiot to pardon Trump. But the pardoning if Nixon was a mistake of gigantic proportion.

    It set the precedent that if you were in power you could do any crime you wanted and not get prosecuted.

    If the Rule of Law is to mean anything then the people at the top must have it applied to them as well.
    It's not about Biden issuing pardons. The point is that Trump has 10 weeks to engage in all the ratfuckery that he likes.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Charles said:
    Isnt she the one that gave Trump a full state visit.
    Bloody well hope that's not a euphemism for something!! I need to sleep tonight!!
    Well, he didn't get a ride up The Mall..
    She helped him downstairs though
    Or was that down stairs
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    Alistair said:

    CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.

    But the pardoning if Nixon was a mistake of gigantic proportion.

    It set the precedent that if you were in power you could do any crime you wanted and not get prosecuted.

    If the Rule of Law is to mean anything then the people at the top must have it applied to them as well.
    Yes, I agree completely. I'd never seen the wording of the pardon of Nixon until someone posted it the other day, and the justification contained within it was absolutely pathetic, as much as stating since the person was no longer president, actual punishment was unnecessary, would be degrading and was divisive. Though I believe that one talked about his relinquising of the office, which clearly doesn't apply here!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
    Brown increased the top tax rate to 50% and it is still higher now than under Blair
    No UK politician since 1979 has had any intention of tackling the issue of the wealth gap getting larger apart from the LOSER in 2017 & 2019.

    The British electorate dont see it as a priority
    Inequality has fallen in the UK since 2008

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40644850
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The pigs are at the trough, snouts are deep in the public purse. The Tories do not even hide it now, they just steal the money openly.
    At best, some of this stuff does not seem to pass the smell test.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    edited November 2020
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The pigs are at the trough, snouts are deep in the public purse. The Tories do not even hide it now, they just steal the money openly.
    Populism and Kleptocracy are natural partners.
  • Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    Is it though...Eastern Europe, is still very popular e.g. Poland re-elected one. Australia voted for a very right wing government. Macron is very unpopular on France, with Le Pen waiting in the wings.
    Le Pen could only win against a Left opponent in the second round and there is no sign of the Left in France getting their act together,
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
    Brown increased the top tax rate to 50% and it is still higher now than under Blair
    No UK politician since 1979 has had any intention of tackling the issue of the wealth gap getting larger apart from the LOSER in 2017 & 2019.

    The British electorate dont see it as a priority
    The UK Gini coefficient came down by four points in the last twelve years all by itself.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
    Brown increased the top tax rate to 50% and it is still higher now than under Blair
    No UK politician since 1979 has had any intention of tackling the issue of the wealth gap getting larger apart from the LOSER in 2017 & 2019.

    The British electorate dont see it as a priority
    As I've said before, we won't win by fixating on the top 10% and the bottom 10%.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128

    Scott_xP said:
    Did he lose at golf today too or did he beat some LOSER

    Like Biden has
    Doesn't he always play with people who deliberately lose to him?
    Sounds credible. He seems the sort to really enjoy petty power moves, like telling bad jokes deliberately to people who have to pretend they are funny (though in fairness he is capable of being pretty funny), indulge in the trappings of authority more than actually exercising it, etc.
  • Bye Boris, labour in the lead again

    You’re relentless, aren’t you? When’s the election again? Presumably nothing will change between now and then...
    No doubt if it showed the Tories in the lead it would be posted endlessly
  • Drutt said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
    Brown increased the top tax rate to 50% and it is still higher now than under Blair
    No UK politician since 1979 has had any intention of tackling the issue of the wealth gap getting larger apart from the LOSER in 2017 & 2019.

    The British electorate dont see it as a priority
    The UK Gini coefficient came down by four points in the last twelve years all by itself.
    It is remarkable what an achievement that is yet the left don't seem happy. Funny that.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:
    That links up with the Wisconsin story. An interesting 72 hours.
    Sorry Mr Ed, what was the Wisconsin story?
    The lie that the number of votes exceeded eligible voters.

    Registration is allowed on the day and therefore was false I think its in here along with lots more debunking

    https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1324435797374808066
    @bigjohnowls no, it was that Trump wasn’t putting up the $3m for the Wisconsin recount. That would tie in with the idea he is debating what to do
  • Boris Johnson will be gone by this time next year, I think.
  • Alistair said:

    CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.


    As I have said Biden is probably enough of an absolute idiot to pardon Trump.
    That shows you very little about Biden. He won't pardon Trump.

    Joe Biden has a long memory for things. For example, he will never forgive Johnson for the half Kenyan comment about Obama.
    Obama is rather more 'half Kenyan' than Biden is 'Irish'.
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Did he lose at golf today too or did he beat some LOSER

    Like Biden has
    Doesn't he always play with people who deliberately lose to him?
    Sounds credible. He seems the sort to really enjoy petty power moves, like telling bad jokes deliberately to people who have to pretend they are funny (though in fairness he is capable of being pretty funny), indulge in the trappings of authority more than actually exercising it, etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INxGbTHybvc
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Foxy said:

    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    JohnO said:

    And in other news Labour +4 (42 vs 38) in tonight's Opinium

    The end of right wing populism is sweeping the globe. I expect Brexit to be cancelled before the end of the year,.
    Is it though...Eastern Europe, is still very popular e.g. Poland re-elected one. Australia voted for a very right wing government. Macron is very unpopular on France, with Le Pen waiting in the wings.
    Right wing populism is still very much there because a large part of the population feels as though it has been sh*t upon from a large height. Anyone who thinks it is going away is very much mistaken.
    Might shift to left wing Populism though. Its one hell of a recession coming.
    Very much so although a left wing populist would need to reflect on that many people are essentially losing because their jobs have been shifted abroad due to free trade.
  • CNN talking about a generalised amnesty for everyone working in Trump's administration.

    I expect even if we don't see that we really will see something that takes the piss.

    Only agree to it if they sign the paperwork for the 25th Amendment.
    CNN were suggesting that Barr was working on it for Trump to sign.
    Even Biden might prefer to sweep this under the rug for the sake of the reputation of the White House and America generally, rather than have Putin and Xi point to the vice of democracy.

    If only I'd done the double with Boris to retire early next year!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:
    That links up with the Wisconsin story. An interesting 72 hours.
    Sorry Mr Ed, what was the Wisconsin story?
    The lie that the number of votes exceeded eligible voters.

    Registration is allowed on the day and therefore was false I think its in here along with lots more debunking

    https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1324435797374808066
    @bigjohnowls no, it was that Trump wasn’t putting up the $3m for the Wisconsin recount. That would tie in with the idea he is debating what to do
    Sorry @Benpointer I should have references you as well
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Charles said:

    @OllyT

    Here’s the book you were asking about on the last thread re: why Americans are different

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chosen-People-shaped-England-America/dp/0340786574

    Separately I don’t think you can just state the EC is “unfair” because it overweighted small states.

    It is absolutely fair to states because it treats them all equally. You just think that another metric is more appropriate

    If you want to understand why the United States is different, a good starting point is to ponder upon the meaning "United States" - what do those two words mean individually, and what do they mean juxtaposed? Each State getting a say in the electoral process makes sense from this perspective.

    Someone in the last thread was decrying the Senate's composition, two from each State, as unfair. Fair or not, it reflects the entire purpose of the Senate! If it were to be more proportionate, you might as well just scrap it and have a unicameral system. A knock-on effect of either abandoning the Senate or reforming so its makeup almost always shadows the House of Representatives, is that change would come much easier. Generally this favours progressives over conservatives, of course, but wouldn't be costless for someone who generally dislikes conservatism, since it means progressive actions can be more easily overturned later, and you might not like the changes a more conservative administration would be empowered to pursue.

    USA isn't alone in a deliberately non-proportional set-up. Here's an extract from the OSCE report on the 2009 Norwegian election:

    The number of mandates per constituency is determined every eight years by the Ministry of Local Government and Regional Development, using a formula established in the Constitution (Article 57), which gives weight both to the population and to the geographic size of each county. The factor of county geographic size in mandate allocation is a historical consideration intended to balance the perceived uneven
    distribution of power between rural and urban citizens in national politics. The result is that the country’s rural constituencies, which are significantly larger in geographic size than the urban constituencies, are allocated a greater number of seats than would be the case if based strictly on population.

    The discrepancy is particularly notable in Finnmark County where there are 7,409 registered voters per mandate, while in Vestfold, there are 18,464 per mandate. The Finnmark quotient is a 50 per cent deviation from the average quotient in the country (14,954 votes per mandate). Four other counties have a deviation of approximately 20
    per cent, and a total of seven counties deviate from the norm by more than 15 percent.

    While some OSCE/ODIHR EAM interlocutors accepted this structural inequality of the vote based on a constitutional formula, others advocated for a stricter or strict equality of the vote noting that the historical rationale is no longer relevant and that the deviation is an infringement of the right to equal suffrage. The Council of Europe’s Commission for Democracy through Law (Venice Commission) recommends for equal suffrage that “the permissible departure from the norm should not be more than 10 per cent, and should certainly not exceed 15 per cent except in special circumstances (protection of a concentrated minority, sparsely populated administrative entity).”


    There is some difference between an extreme of a 2x unequal proportionality and 10x.
    And even the comparatively low rate in Norway appears to be controversial.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Drutt said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    MrEd said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:
    I make that fifteen vice-Presidents from Truman, of which six became President, giving Harris a naive probability of 2/5 to subsequently become President herself.
    That’s before factoring in that she’s a useless politician
    Not so useless that she cannot beat Republicans.

    Do I detect a sore loser?
    No, you detect someone who has had Harris as a Senator for several years and is massively unimpressed. She’s wooden and uninspiring.

    Also - traditionally - the job of the Presidential candidate is to win the White House while the VP candidate is focused on supporting senatorial and house candidates. How did she do on that measure?

    Edit: FWIW this is the perfect outcome in my view. Trump is gone, and the manner of his going will condemn him to irrelevance. The Republicans have done well enough in the house and senate to rein in the worst excesses of the nuttier democrats

    Precisely so.
    No, Trump was a symptom, not a cause. The cause has not been addressed, namely a growing proportion of the population is sinking further and further into the mire while more and more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

    And this will only get worse. When you have the CEO of a firm like Lyft, 30-s something (I think), living on the West Coast and a multi-billionaire, talking about how the CV pandemic is a great long-term opportunity for the firm because it means that rising unemployment will mean that more people will want to become Lyft drivers which enables Lyft to pay them less, don't expect America to get happier any time soon.

    The con is that neither Trump nor the Republicans were ever going to do anything more than protect those already wealthy.
    Same as every UK politician since at least 1979 arguably much longer.

    TBH now Jezza has gone the leaders of all the main political parties are teammates
    Brown increased the top tax rate to 50% and it is still higher now than under Blair
    No UK politician since 1979 has had any intention of tackling the issue of the wealth gap getting larger apart from the LOSER in 2017 & 2019.

    The British electorate dont see it as a priority
    The UK Gini coefficient came down by four points in the last twelve years all by itself.
    Fantastic I will ask if my local foodbank wants to organize a Gini is coming down party.

    St Marcus of Manchester is wasting is time clearly

    Let them drink Gini
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Boris Johnson will be gone by this time next year, I think.

    I may be proven wrong, but I really don't see this. I think rumours about dramatic internal divides always get play in the media, but look how long it took and how hard it was to remove sitting PMs before. May survived a VoNC despite a torrid leadership and only left after the election and several more months of Brexit tensions. Brown made it to an election, Blair served years longer than many expected, Major made it to an election; Thatcher was hated by lots of her cabinet for years before they moved on her.
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