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We could be wrong, you know – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited October 2020 in General
imageWe could be wrong, you know – politicalbetting.com

OK. For a moment, I want us all to play a game. This is a very useful management technique I’ve learned, and it’s called the premortem. What I want us to do is to imagine it’s December 2020, and President Trump is re-elected – what did we get wrong, what were the signs we missed?

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Comments

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited October 2020
    Anybody out there?

    Guess I must be first then.... :open_mouth:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    Vanished, like an old oak table.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited October 2020
    Second!
    Damn, third! Good piece Robert.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,700
    It will be interesting to see if there is any movement in the polls.

    https://twitter.com/ivankatrump/status/1312590918915108866?s=21
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited October 2020
    One more thing we could be missing is the rule that the most audacious candidate wins.

    With only 5 days to go to the election, Trump announced $THING. Democrats protested that $THING would be wildly impractical, and in any case the president had no power to enact a unilateral $THING. But as GOP focus groups had shown, $THING was wildly popular among swing voters in key states, and they appreciated Trump's decisiveness and get-$THINGs-done attitude. Only 4% of voters were strongly enough pro-$THING to swing from Biden to Trump, but that was enough to win the Electoral College.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Another development is that having Trump in isolation is going to force him to read the damn script the professionals give him and stop making up stupid shit all the time. I know making up stupid shit all the time is generally supposed to be a key part of Trump's brand, but conventionally you'd think an election campaign would go better this way.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    One more thing we could be missing is the rule that the most audacious candidate wins.

    With only 5 days to go to the election, Trump announced $THING. Democrats protested that $THING would be wildly impractical, and in any case the president had no power to enact a unilateral $THING. But as GOP focus groups had shown, $THING was wildly popular among swing voters in key states, and they appreciated Trump's decisiveness and get-$THINGs-done attitude. Only 4% of voters were strongly enough pro-$THING to swing from Biden to Trump, but that was enough to win the Electoral College.

    Yes, quite possible.

    $THING will then not be delivered, which won't be the President's fault, but will instead be the result of deep state manouverings.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp.[3]
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    One more thing we could be missing is the rule that the most audacious candidate wins.

    With only 5 days to go to the election, Trump announced $THING. Democrats protested that $THING would be wildly impractical, and in any case the president had no power to enact a unilateral $THING. But as GOP focus groups had shown, $THING was wildly popular among swing voters in key states, and they appreciated Trump's decisiveness and get-$THINGs-done attitude. Only 4% of voters were strongly enough pro-$THING to swing from Biden to Trump, but that was enough to win the Electoral College.

    I get a little weary of people making false connections. There is no 'rule' that the most audacious candidate wins. What you are asserting is the kind of connections that leads conspiracy theorists into their lunatic asylum worldviews. You know the kind of thing: Trump will win because ginger haired candidates ALWAYS win in years ending in 20.

    This election is a rarity in that it takes place in a national crisis. There is no enemy that can be railed against, although that hasn't stopped Trump trying. Nowhere can be bombed. It's obvious to most Americans that the pandemic has been mismanaged and that a lot of people have died who needn't have.

    There is no blueprint for this election. No template to which you can make a connection. The most intelligent approach is to look at the facts in front of you which see a low Trump approval rating. The crisis has been fuelled by his incompetence. Is it likely that he will be re-elected? Or will the U.S. choose someone who appears a safer pair of hands to lead them through the storm?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    p.s. I got the 2019 UK election wrong because I let my heart rule my head and I didn't heed the clear signs which I had already observed and successfully bet on. I knew the EU Referendum result in advance, warned my Labour Chair that we were losing the white working class vote and I successfully bid on the outcome, calling the actual 52-48 result. The latter was slightly flukey because without Jo Cox's killing the result would have been wider.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited October 2020

    One more thing we could be missing is the rule that the most audacious candidate wins.

    With only 5 days to go to the election, Trump announced $THING. Democrats protested that $THING would be wildly impractical, and in any case the president had no power to enact a unilateral $THING. But as GOP focus groups had shown, $THING was wildly popular among swing voters in key states, and they appreciated Trump's decisiveness and get-$THINGs-done attitude. Only 4% of voters were strongly enough pro-$THING to swing from Biden to Trump, but that was enough to win the Electoral College.

    I get a little weary of people making false connections. There is no 'rule' that the most audacious candidate wins. What you are asserting is the kind of connections that leads conspiracy theorists into their lunatic asylum worldviews. You know the kind of thing: Trump will win because ginger haired candidates ALWAYS win in years ending in 20.

    This election is a rarity in that it takes place in a national crisis. There is no enemy that can be railed against, although that hasn't stopped Trump trying. Nowhere can be bombed. It's obvious to most Americans that the pandemic has been mismanaged and that a lot of people have died who needn't have.

    There is no blueprint for this election. No template to which you can make a connection. The most intelligent approach is to look at the facts in front of you which see a low Trump approval rating. The crisis has been fuelled by his incompetence. Is it likely that he will be re-elected? Or will the U.S. choose someone who appears a safer pair of hands to lead them through the storm?
    Sure sure, obviously when I say "rule" I don't mean that it's unbreakable. But there are certain patterns that tend to repeat themselves, and some, like "usually the audacious candidate wins", could potentially only make themselves felt late in the campaign. I think audacity is more likely to repeat than the ginger hair rule you mention because there's a plausible mechanism for how it would work, as there is with some of the traditional indicators like the strength of the economy.

    Clearly when you're 1 month out and the polling has a big, stable lead that candidate is favourite to win, but this is also not certain, and for better purposes you want to work out how less-than-certain it is. That means doing what @rcs1000 is doing and squinting at the various indicators for ways it might not happen.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463
    Good morning everyone. Although it isn't here; the rain hasn't moved away yet.

    Young Mr S is giving us, and perchance the Dem campaign, a warning that chickens should NOT be counted before the hatching. Nothing is in the bag until it is! Mr in-Tokyo is absolutely right when in his second para, above he writes that the Dem campaign management should be 'doing what @rcs1000 is doing and squinting at the various indicators for ways it might not happen.'

    After all, in 1944 the by then war-winning FDR only won 53:46 in the popular vote. Enough, of course, and distributed widely enough, to give him a big EC victory.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Does Trump getting coronavirus help him/Republicans? Probably:
    He gets sympathy/attacks on him seem unfair
    People rally round the head of state
    If he dies Pence wins on sympathy vote.
    If he recovers he says he beat the virus, but Biden wouldn't be able to.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    I see New Caledonia is having a second independence referendum in two years, with a further one in another in 2022 if No wins. Parts of Old Caledonia may be a little jealous!

    https://twitter.com/FRANCE24/status/1312634442809110528?s=19
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Trump loses this year, but wins big in 2024.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    It's certainly possible to imagine Trump winning this. As a left-leaning liberal internationalist it's actually harder for me to imagine the feeling of an election going the way I'd like it to these days than the converse.
    But here's why I don't think it will happen. Trump's path to victory seems to rely on an almost exact repeat of 2016: the polls being a bit wrong in the same places, the Democrats not paying attention in the Midwest, the distribution of votes across the electoral college being sufficient to deliver victory despite a big popular vote loss.
    I can't remember an example of such a repeat in elections anywhere - indeed it is more likely that you get an over-correction in the other direction as parties and pollsters try to avoid getting caught out again. Show me how Trump wins without a repeat of 2016 and I will find it more convincing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Foxy said:

    I see New Caledonia is having a second independence referendum in two years, with a further one in another in 2022 if No wins. Parts of Old Caledonia may be a little jealous!

    https://twitter.com/FRANCE24/status/1312634442809110528?s=19

    It sounds like an EU referendum on Lisbon.

    ‘Vote yes - we implement the treaty.
    Vote no - well, we’ll keep voting until we get the right answer.’
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited October 2020
    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Unlike Trump, Pence will follow the expected norms and etiquettes. Beyond that, the prospect of President Pence is as scary as hell.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Trump recovers, Biden gets sick and is in hospital on polling day. Trump wins.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Reading this,

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/03/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-walter-reed/index.html

    what stands out is how quickly his condition appears to have deteriorated after having been admitted to hospital on Friday with next to no symptoms. The suggestions he has made significant recovery are less convincing coming so quickly afterwards, but I guess hospital rest and all the various treatments he has already had may have had some very rapid effect?

    Given that experts point toward the 7-10 day point as the critical one for the course of the virus, everything with Trump seems to be happening too quickly.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Alistair said:
    Can’t they afford better pens these days?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
    Everybody gets an armband. Indeed 2 in my hospital.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Thanks for the header Robert. That`s given me a miserable start to the day. I was feeling quite chipper until I read it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    It so nearly worked as well. But then Agnew had to spoil it by resigning and nobody was scared of Carl Albert and then Gerald Ford.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    alex_ said:

    Alistair said:
    Can’t they afford better pens these days?
    Oh, that`s priceless. They have to give him a felt tip to write with.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    The Johnson revelations in the DM are funny.

    I particularly like the bit where he abandoned his Mrs and kids on holiday to scale of the wall of Petronalla "Petsy" Wyatt's Italian villa where he threatened to top himself if she stopped fucking him. Absolute scenes.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
    It wouldn't be Ivanka. It would have to be Don Jnr.

    And we all thought Donald Snr. was as mad as a bag of monkeys.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
    It wouldn't be Ivanka. It would have to be Don Jnr.

    And we all thought Donald Snr. was as mad as a bag of monkeys.
    Could be worse. He could pick Kushner.

    This is depressing, isn't it?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Dura_Ace said:

    The Johnson revelations in the DM are funny.

    I particularly like the bit where he abandoned his Mrs and kids on holiday to scale of the wall of Petronalla "Petsy" Wyatt's Italian villa where he threatened to top himself if she stopped fucking him. Absolute scenes.

    Exposing Boris' softer side. Ahh bless!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited October 2020
    Duplicate
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    For Trump to win he needs to win FL and all of PA, MI and WI. FL certainly seems possible but he is underwater in the other three - I can really only see him winning through “shenanigans” if there is a close result.

    Biden has led Trump in head to head polling since 2017 - we are talking of a polling error many times worse than 2016 for Trump to win. And even if the polls are wrong, it’s possible of course that they could be wrong in Biden’s direction.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    This election is a rarity in that it takes place in a national crisis. There is no enemy that can be railed against, although that hasn't stopped Trump trying. Nowhere can be bombed. It's obvious to most Americans that the pandemic has been mismanaged and that a lot of people have died who needn't have.

    The virus is the enemy.

    If Trump survives, he has already defeated it once. Who better to defeat it Nationally?

    That's the narrative the GOP are desperately trying to spin.

    If he doesn't survive, is a martyr better than a hero?

    Watch Wag the Dog...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited October 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
    So to change the official GOP nominee you apparently need to convene the 168 members of the RNC, but it may already be too late for that:
    https://qz.com/1912440/who-is-the-republican-nominee-if-trump-dies-before-the-election/
    And even if you do it, changing the nominee won't change what's on the ballot papers.

    The other option is to just go through with the election but for Trump to say he's making a recommendation to the people elected for Trump/Pence. The process for this isn't *totally* clear even if Trump just died and only Pence is left - technically some state laws may be read as banning their delegates from voting for anyone except Trump, which sounds bad if he's dead, and those states may need to have legal battles or hurriedly change legislation. But ultimately it's the Electoral College that decides who to pick.

    I think in practice if Trump said he was standing aside in favour of Ivanka and he recommended before the election that anyone elected as a Donald Trump + Mike Pence elector should instead pick Ivanka Trump + Mike Pence, he could probably get away with that, although there's a risk of losing some electors along the way.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
    It wouldn't be Ivanka. It would have to be Don Jnr.

    And we all thought Donald Snr. was as mad as a bag of monkeys.
    Could be worse. He could pick Kushner.

    This is depressing, isn't it?
    I don't find Kushner quite so offensive as Don Jnr. and Eric.

    Mind you, when Jared becomes President I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Dura_Ace said:

    The Johnson revelations in the DM are funny.

    I particularly like the bit where he abandoned his Mrs and kids on holiday to scale of the wall of Petronalla "Petsy" Wyatt's Italian villa where he threatened to top himself if she stopped fucking him. Absolute scenes.

    Exposing Boris' softer side. Ahh bless!
    His 'softer side' is just behind his nose.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited October 2020
    An interesting piece from this month's US Spectator about the growing number of politically homeless. I wonder if we could see a reduction in turnout, which is the opposite of what might be expected with such polarising figures standing. Also touches on a number of the issues mentioned in Robert's header.

    Alternatively, does the author's social circle of disenchanted Californians lead to Biden winning by a comparatively small margin there, but by a landslide elsewhere where it counts?

    https://spectator.us/letters-politically-homeless-election-swing-voters/

    "Since my last column, headlined ‘Why I won’t vote’, I’ve received hundreds of emails from others who feel politically homeless. I’ve also heard from many who have voted Democrat or Republican their entire lives and, for the first time, in 2020 will vote for the opposite party. Lifetime conservatives are voting for Biden. Independents are being radicalized to vote red or blue. People who didn’t vote for Donald Trump in 2016 are enthusiastically voting for him now."
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    This is starting to remind me a lot of some of the posts during the 2019GE. Throughout the polling indicated a comfortable Tory win, but right to the end people were posting “clever” explanations of why that wouldn’t be the case.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
    It wouldn't be Ivanka. It would have to be Don Jnr.

    And we all thought Donald Snr. was as mad as a bag of monkeys.
    Why not Ivanka? Of the siblings she seems like the one the least touched by cocaine, and she's run a successful business, which seems good since the whole point of Trump was that he was a businessman.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The Johnson revelations in the DM are funny.

    I particularly like the bit where he abandoned his Mrs and kids on holiday to scale of the wall of Petronalla "Petsy" Wyatt's Italian villa where he threatened to top himself if she stopped fucking him. Absolute scenes.

    Exposing Boris' softer side. Ahh bless!
    His 'softer side' is just behind his nose.
    Softness had nothing to do with it, as Mae West memorably said.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
    It wouldn't be Ivanka. It would have to be Don Jnr.

    And we all thought Donald Snr. was as mad as a bag of monkeys.
    Why not Ivanka? Of the siblings she seems like the one the least touched by cocaine, and she's run a successful business, which seems good since the whole point of Trump was that he was a businessman.
    And will look sensational dressed in mourning.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
    Everybody gets an armband. Indeed 2 in my hospital.
    So let's say, if say the Queen fell off her horse at the Quorn Hunt and was kept at your hospital overnight as a precaution she would be issued with two armbands?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    The Black Swan is the President's illness. It could bring out a sympathy vote.

    Probably the best result of the illness for the Democrats is recovery but ongoing fatigue like we see in Johnson.

    Death in office may or may not help Pence. There could be a sympathy vote, but on the other hand Pence is uncharismatic and also too narrowly evangelical, even for America.

    The Pence question is interesting, because the one thing Trump’s illness should do is bring into greater focus the role of VP as “replacement” President.
    I have always argued that the reason nobody would vote to impeach Trump was that Pence is a bit worse.

    I’m starting to wonder if I was wrong, but that’s not said with any sudden uprush of admiration for Pence.
    Private Eye had a cover with Nixon saying nobody would assassinate him with Spiro Agnew next in line. Certainly an element of that with Pence, as indeed there was with Cheney.
    Is trump now locked in to pence as vp for this election? If I were him I'd ditch him for Ivanka at this stage, on the grounds that she is nailed on via the mawkishness vote should the (cue microviolins) worst happen in the next 4 weeks.
    It wouldn't be Ivanka. It would have to be Don Jnr.

    And we all thought Donald Snr. was as mad as a bag of monkeys.
    Why not Ivanka? Of the siblings she seems like the one the least touched by cocaine, and she's run a successful business, which seems good since the whole point of Trump was that he was a businessman.
    Trump is a misogynist, and although Ivanka may be his favourite child, she is nonetheless female.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
    Everybody gets an armband. Indeed 2 in my hospital.
    So let's say, if say the Queen fell off her horse at the Quorn Hunt and was kept at your hospital overnight as a precaution she would be issued with two armbands?
    She has never hunted. If the nurses had any sense they'd have arm and ankle bands on her and renew them hourly, given what the discards would fetch on ebay.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    Why not Ivanka? Of the siblings she seems like the one the least touched by cocaine, and she's run a successful business, which seems good since the whole point of Trump was that he was a businessman.

    She's as thick as fuck and lacks Trump's bombast and low animal cunning.

    Barron is the only hope. Although he is a creepy fucker and you certainly wouldn't leave him alone with any small animals.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Stocky said:

    alex_ said:

    Alistair said:
    Can’t they afford better pens these days?
    Oh, that`s priceless. They have to give him a felt tip to write with.
    Their tub of Crayola crayons is probably quarantined due to Covid restrictions.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Scott_xP said:

    This election is a rarity in that it takes place in a national crisis. There is no enemy that can be railed against, although that hasn't stopped Trump trying. Nowhere can be bombed. It's obvious to most Americans that the pandemic has been mismanaged and that a lot of people have died who needn't have.

    The virus is the enemy.

    If Trump survives, he has already defeated it once. Who better to defeat it Nationally?

    That's the narrative the GOP are desperately trying to spin.

    If he doesn't survive, is a martyr better than a hero?

    Watch Wag the Dog...
    Yes, I thought this (by an enterprising securities lawyer) made a good fist of spinning why getting covid19 is Good For Trump:

    https://twitter.com/prestonjbyrne/status/1312386676971495424

    Of course, this does require that he's actually beaten it (or can convincingly pretend) - at his age isn't it plausible that it doesn't kill him but it just drags on and on?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
    Everybody gets an armband. Indeed 2 in my hospital.
    So let's say, if say the Queen fell off her horse at the Quorn Hunt and was kept at your hospital overnight as a precaution she would be issued with two armbands?
    She has never hunted. If the nurses had any sense they'd have arm and ankle bands on her and renew them hourly, given what the discards would fetch on ebay.
    On that basis alone, proof if it were needed yesterday's Trump video was a prerecord.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:
    There is more than a vague hint of Jimmy Saville in that picture. Just look at the eyes.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    It will be interesting to see if there is any movement in the polls.

    https://twitter.com/ivankatrump/status/1312590918915108866?s=21

    Are the golf courses closed? LAZYTWAT!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Trump seemed somewhat humbled in that video to me. On the assumption he’s back on his feet in time for the last debate, it will be fascinating to see to what extent the experience has changed him / his approach.

    In the right setting, he’s clearly been a man able to exhibit warmth and charm over the years, though these qualities have been almost totally lacking in his public persona since he entered politics.

    Base case from here for me is Biden wins handily, Trump offers heartfelt congratulations and passes over the baton without any whisper of a dispute. Though I don’t think we can rule out a 2-4% swing from this that nudges him over the line, if he makes it to one more debate.

    The ghouls hoping he succumbs should bear in mind that the c.10% of his profile that have died once infected would in most cases have had to wait a relatively long time before being tested or receiving any medical intervention at all. He’s had prompt oxygen and antibody treatment and a team of 9 doctors exclusively dedicated to his care (excluding the osteopath). He has also had the fortune to contract it in September and not March, meaning he gets to benefit from the perhaps halving in case fatality ratios due to simple things like prone position sleeping and dexamethasone.

    Which is all good news. Because the sore his passing would open in American society might never heal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    Dura_Ace said:

    The Johnson revelations in the DM are funny.

    I particularly like the bit where he abandoned his Mrs and kids on holiday to scale of the wall of Petronalla "Petsy" Wyatt's Italian villa where he threatened to top himself if she stopped fucking him. Absolute scenes.

    Yes, it is quite interesting. This is a curious incident described from 1976, when BoZo was 12:

    "It was the regular habit for Boris’s parents to walk around their home and Exmoor farm naked in the summer.

    His father, Stanley, told their young family’s two au pairs in 1976 that a water shortage meant they were unable to wash their clothes so they, too, should not wear any.

    Both complied and walked around in the nude.

    Stanley insisted on two au pairs – and embarked on an affair with one, in front of his children."
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    There’s no chance Trump is well enough to work but not well enough to incoherently tweet.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
    Everybody gets an armband. Indeed 2 in my hospital.
    So let's say, if say the Queen fell off her horse at the Quorn Hunt and was kept at your hospital overnight as a precaution she would be issued with two armbands?
    Yep.

    Protocols exist for a reason, to prevent errors.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2020
    Lord Ashcroft's poll makes for uncomfortable reading for Johnson:


    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2020/10/voters-have-turned-but-all-is-not-lost-for-the-tories/#more-16486

    Last year, Johnson stormed to victory by attracting both Brexit-backing voters in former Labour heartlands and culturally different voters, including many remainers, who were not only horrified at the idea of Prime Minister Corbyn but worried that Labour would bankrupt the country. With Brexit all but done, Corbyn consigned to history and austerity all but repudiated by the Tories themselves, that will be a much harder trick to pull off next time.
  • The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Dura_Ace said:



    Why not Ivanka? Of the siblings she seems like the one the least touched by cocaine, and she's run a successful business, which seems good since the whole point of Trump was that he was a businessman.

    She's as thick as fuck and lacks Trump's bombast and low animal cunning.

    Barron is the only hope. Although he is a creepy fucker and you certainly wouldn't leave him alone with any small animals.
    Does that include Yorkshire terriers?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:

    This election is a rarity in that it takes place in a national crisis. There is no enemy that can be railed against, although that hasn't stopped Trump trying. Nowhere can be bombed. It's obvious to most Americans that the pandemic has been mismanaged and that a lot of people have died who needn't have.

    The virus is the enemy.

    If Trump survives, he has already defeated it once. Who better to defeat it Nationally?

    That's the narrative the GOP are desperately trying to spin.

    If he doesn't survive, is a martyr better than a hero?

    Watch Wag the Dog...
    Wasn't this the narrative we were fed after Johnson's close call?

    It is debatable whether his Government's Covid strategy has subsequently improved.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    edited October 2020
    The thing I see missing from Robert's premortem is simple cheating. So I can see that if Trump wins a series of close states on the day (or whenever the Americans get around to actually counting), which he will, there will be serious attempts to invalidate the votes of those that have voted by mail on the basis that they are duplicates, they are fraudulent, there was insufficient security or integrity in them to be trusted or whatever. With the right Judges in place such arguments just might get a sympathetic hearing.

    As I keep pointing out America is not a functioning democracy in any real sense and such steps seem to me to be an inevitable consequence of a system that is genuinely not fit for purpose. Some of it may even be true. What are the chances of one or both sides farming votes from care homes etc Tower Hamlets style, of there being strong suspicions that a ballot box has been stuffed by having more apparently legal votes than were ever available in that ward ? Pretty high I would say. The lawyers will not be short of ammunition.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    DavidL said:

    The thing I see missing from Robert's premortem is simple cheating. So I can see that if Trump wins a series of close states on the day (or whenever the Americans get around to actually counting), which he will, there will be serious attempts to invalidate the votes of those that have voted by mail on the basis that they are duplicates, they are fraudulent, there was insufficient security or integrity in them to be trusted or whatever. With the right Judges in place such arguments just might get a sympathetic hearing.

    As I keep pointing out America is not a functioning democracy in any real sense and such steps seem to me to be an inevitable consequence of a system that is genuinely not fit for purpose. Some of it may even be true. What are the chances of one or both sides farming votes from care homes etc Tower Hamlets style, of there being strong suspicions that a ballot box has been stuffed by having more apparently legal votes than were ever available in that ward ? Pretty high I would say. The lawyers will not be short of ammunition.

    Can't believe that post was posted at 9/11. Freaky.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    edited October 2020

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    It is sad. So many cinemas, theatres and music venues are going to close, with events and other staff dispersed that it will be years before we have a cultural life again. Same goes for most sport below the EPL.

    In particular, venues based around direct or indirect local and central government support.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:
    Alternatively, the heart palpitations could have been a side effect of that foxy teenage nurse administering oxygen.
  • There’s no chance Trump is well enough to work but not well enough to incoherently tweet.

    A split infinitve, and on a Sunday morning too! Where are the Moderators?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
    Everybody gets an armband. Indeed 2 in my hospital.
    So let's say, if say the Queen fell off her horse at the Quorn Hunt and was kept at your hospital overnight as a precaution she would be issued with two armbands?
    Yep.

    Protocols exist for a reason, to prevent errors.
    Seems to confirm then that perhaps there is more to the video than meets the eye

    Pre-recording a series of videos in case of Covid, wouldn't be the most sophisticated form of subterfuge adopted by the administration to date.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    There’s no chance Trump is well enough to work but not well enough to incoherently tweet.

    A split infinitve, and on a Sunday morning too! Where are the Moderators?
    How do we feel about split infinitives these days? I try to avoid them but a few annoyingly happen now and again.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    There’s no chance Trump is well enough to work but not well enough to incoherently tweet.

    A split infinitve, and on a Sunday morning too! Where are the Moderators?
    They're chomping pizza with pineapple on it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717
    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    No, cinemas are open. The problem is that no one is going, partly from covid fears and partly that there is nothing to see.

    It is not government policy that is the problem, it is the pandemic.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    It's more the consequence of the policy of "covid, but contained", which aims to keep the economy in general moving, while shutting down the high-risk, non-essential things. In places like China, that went for *zero* covid, you shut much more down for a while to get to zero, but once you've got to zero you can reopen the cinemas.

    There's also a policy option of "just let it burn", but that would likely also kill the cinemas, because no matter what the government tells them people don't want to get covid.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Signs Italy are getting worried?
    cross
    10:21 In Rome, from this weekend, outdoor masks are mandatory. A measure that the Italian Government intends to transfer to the entire country. Despite the fact that the situation is more controlled than in other parts of Europe, Italy is close to 3,000 infected daily, data that has not been given since the confinement ended.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    We were down town for coffee and cake yesterday morning (the medal, I believe, is in the post) and it was genuinely startling how many shops, cafes and small businesses are now clearly gone for good. In the main shopping streets in Dundee I would say that coming on for a quarter of all shop premises are now boarded up. So far the larger chains are still there but if they start to fold as well we face devastation along with the loss of so much employment.
    The economic consequences of overly prescriptive policies which make having a viable business simply impossible are going to be with us longer than the virus.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Fairly obviously got dressed, was propped up there while a photo was taken, then went back to bed.
    Strange to be wearing jacket, shirt with long sleeves and cufflinks. His medications are given by infusion, and it would knock any line. No hospital armband visible.
    Do you have to give the President an armband? You are unlikely to forget who he is.
    Everybody gets an armband. Indeed 2 in my hospital.
    So let's say, if say the Queen fell off her horse at the Quorn Hunt and was kept at your hospital overnight as a precaution she would be issued with two armbands?
    Yep.

    Protocols exist for a reason, to prevent errors.
    Seems to confirm then that perhaps there is more to the video than meets the eye

    Pre-recording a series of videos in case of Covid, wouldn't be the most sophisticated form of subterfuge adopted by the administration to date.
    There are plenty of rumours that this was shot on Friday at the White House.

    Personally, I would have thought a bit of pre loading with oxygen for an aerial transfer a wise precaution. Flight often worsens hypoxia, though not much altitude on this short trip.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    rcs1000 said:

    The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp.[3]

    As opposed to the concrete, rational dislike of the grifter in the White House, directed at voting him out of office ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. L, my mother was in Leeds the other day. Said it was quiet but not excessively so.

    But Leeds is bigger than most cities. I think the only other ones comparable, beyond London, of course, would be Birmingham, Manchester, and Glasgow.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    moonshine said:

    Trump seemed somewhat humbled in that video to me. On the assumption he’s back on his feet in time for the last debate, it will be fascinating to see to what extent the experience has changed him / his approach.

    In the right setting, he’s clearly been a man able to exhibit warmth and charm over the years, though these qualities have been almost totally lacking in his public persona since he entered politics.

    Base case from here for me is Biden wins handily, Trump offers heartfelt congratulations and passes over the baton without any whisper of a dispute. Though I don’t think we can rule out a 2-4% swing from this that nudges him over the line, if he makes it to one more debate.

    The ghouls hoping he succumbs should bear in mind that the c.10% of his profile that have died once infected would in most cases have had to wait a relatively long time before being tested or receiving any medical intervention at all. He’s had prompt oxygen and antibody treatment and a team of 9 doctors exclusively dedicated to his care (excluding the osteopath). He has also had the fortune to contract it in September and not March, meaning he gets to benefit from the perhaps halving in case fatality ratios due to simple things like prone position sleeping and dexamethasone.

    Which is all good news. Because the sore his passing would open in American society might never heal.

    Lovely little metaphor, but what does it mean? 40 odd PsOTUS have died, sorry, "passed" to date, most of them rather better at it in most views, than this one. Did their deaths open these unhealing sores, in which case it's just another one to add to the count, or is the hypothetical Trumpentod unique?
  • Foxy said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    It is sad. So many cinemas, theatres and music venues are going to close, with events and other staff dispersed that it will be years before we have a cultural life again. Same goes for most sport below the EPL.

    In particular, venues based around direct or indirect local and central government support.
    Yeah. The example I gave was cinema. I also like live music. That's another industry that is in deep shit. The last gig I went to was the end of February at the Brundell Club in Leeds. A brilliant community venue with two rooms, both of which had a 3 band line-up. The venue, the bands, their crews - all up the creek without a paddle. Same with theatre. Same with orchestras.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    No, cinemas are open. The problem is that no one is going, partly from covid fears and partly that there is nothing to see.

    It is not government policy that is the problem, it is the pandemic.
    My daughter is going to see Pulp Fiction at the cinema on Tuesday in Edinburgh. It's a shameful to admit as a father but she has never seen it and is keen to see it on the big screen. I do miss the cinematic experience. I haven't been since February.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    No, cinemas are open. The problem is that no one is going, partly from covid fears and partly that there is nothing to see.

    It is not government policy that is the problem, it is the pandemic.
    In our local town there is a small theatre which is on the comedy and music circuit, particularly those who try out their acts before appearing at large venues. We get to see all the acts at half the price (at least) and in a more intimate setting.

    It has reopened, with socially distanced seating etc. All the acts have been booked for the next few months and, like last night, they are sold out. People do want to go out and enjoy themselves and have some sort of social life, even with a pandemic.

    Maybe Cumbrians are hardier folk than you soft Midlanders and Southerners. I dunno! But people do still want to have a life.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315

    Foxy said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    It is sad. So many cinemas, theatres and music venues are going to close, with events and other staff dispersed that it will be years before we have a cultural life again. Same goes for most sport below the EPL.

    In particular, venues based around direct or indirect local and central government support.
    Yeah. The example I gave was cinema. I also like live music. That's another industry that is in deep shit. The last gig I went to was the end of February at the Brundell Club in Leeds. A brilliant community venue with two rooms, both of which had a 3 band line-up. The venue, the bands, their crews - all up the creek without a paddle. Same with theatre. Same with orchestras.
    Yes - the last live gig I went to was in January. A great night out. We are killing much of our cultural life. Enough of this.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited October 2020
    Stocky said:

    There’s no chance Trump is well enough to work but not well enough to incoherently tweet.

    A split infinitve, and on a Sunday morning too! Where are the Moderators?
    How do we feel about split infinitives these days? I try to avoid them but a few annoyingly happen now and again.
    I used to avoid them but to honest be , I can't see the harm and stylistically they can be used to good effect, so I've eased up myself.

    I still however cut the tongue from anyone who says 'this moment in time' in my presence.
  • DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    No, cinemas are open. The problem is that no one is going, partly from covid fears and partly that there is nothing to see.

    It is not government policy that is the problem, it is the pandemic.
    My daughter is going to see Pulp Fiction at the cinema on Tuesday in Edinburgh. It's a shameful to admit as a father but she has never seen it and is keen to see it on the big screen. I do miss the cinematic experience. I haven't been since February.
    You are in for a treat.

    Pulp Fiction is a good clean family film with lots of biblical quotes in it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    Sunak's more recent economic Covid strategies don't appear to be the work of the political and economic genius, as he is portrayed in the media, and on here.

    There seem to be significant gaps in the targeting of sectors which were viable before Covid and will be viable once Covid is beaten. The 20% universal furlough is no more than a band aid to repair a severed limb.

    Who pays? Well the debt is so astronomical, and already unrepayable, I say in for a penny, in for a pound.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    No, cinemas are open. The problem is that no one is going, partly from covid fears and partly that there is nothing to see.

    It is not government policy that is the problem, it is the pandemic.
    My daughter is going to see Pulp Fiction at the cinema on Tuesday in Edinburgh. It's a shameful to admit as a father but she has never seen it and is keen to see it on the big screen. I do miss the cinematic experience. I haven't been since February.
    You are in for a treat.

    Pulp Fiction is a good clean family film with lots of biblical quotes in it.
    I'm not going. Its a mess of a movie but contains so many truly brilliant scenes that it is more than worth the effort.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    The news that Cineworld are to mothball their entire business is really bad. OK yes, they may be able to restart operations at some point next year. But I assume they will fire everyone barring a few in head office and maintenance. Their comment that their business is no longer viable can be said for cinema as a whole - will big studios invest in big productions if they aren't likely to get the return they are expecting?

    The consequences of zero COVID policies. This was inevitable and will be for a lot of other businesses because older people are once again proving themselves as the most selfish generation.
    We were down town for coffee and cake yesterday morning (the medal, I believe, is in the post) and it was genuinely startling how many shops, cafes and small businesses are now clearly gone for good. In the main shopping streets in Dundee I would say that coming on for a quarter of all shop premises are now boarded up. So far the larger chains are still there but if they start to fold as well we face devastation along with the loss of so much employment.
    The economic consequences of overly prescriptive policies which make having a viable business simply impossible are going to be with us longer than the virus.
    Not just the economic consequences, @DavidL. There are social and human consequences as well.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    This is starting to remind me a lot of some of the posts during the 2019GE. Throughout the polling indicated a comfortable Tory win, but right to the end people were posting “clever” explanations of why that wouldn’t be the case.

    To be fair, it’s a cleverish set of reasons why the unlikely is not impossible.

    That’s why I have a certain amount of insurance on a narrow Trump win, the cost of which doesn’t make much of a dent in my prospective Trump loss winnings.
  • Mr. L, my mother was in Leeds the other day. Said it was quiet but not excessively so.

    But Leeds is bigger than most cities. I think the only other ones comparable, beyond London, of course, would be Birmingham, Manchester, and Glasgow.

    Pretty busy in Cheltenham yesterday. The shops are imposing Covid measures very strictly. Mask-wearing and general compliance levels were pretty high.

    The Cotswolds has one of the lowest Covid rates in the country.
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