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Does the Internal Markets Bill Compromise Work? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 18 in General
imageDoes the Internal Markets Bill Compromise Work? – politicalbetting.com

But first, what does it actually do? The government’s compromise with Sir Bob Neill on his amendment does the following:-

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • ClippPClippP Posts: 462
    First
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,091
    Good piece. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Betting relevance - fewer rebels, more likely to be expelled, fewer letters to 1922 in short term.

    But with easier passage (through the Commons at least) more likely to blow up in the medium term?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,140
    So how exactly does a UK minister deciding that cheddar can be sent to NI even although it is no longer an approved foodstuff for the EU affect the personal rights of citizens of NI or rUK?

    The clause in the bill which is the subject of the compromise gives the government to regulate certain matters in relation to the supply of goods in certain situations, now subject to the approval of the Commons. There are other provisions in the bill seeking to ouster Judicial review. They may be problematic for reasons discussed on yesterday's thread in the context of Rozenburg's piece but they are not directly relevant to the compromise/amendment. I don't agree with this critique of the header.

    A much more fundamental issue is not whether this compromise is acceptable to Parliament (it probably is) but whether it is acceptable to the EU. What we have said is that in certain circumstances we will breach the WA. We have not been entirely clear what those circumstances are. Lord Keen suggested, sensibly, that they would be where the EU had already breached the WA but he was shot down and resigned, a sad loss. So we are left with our negotiating partner and indeed future negotiating partners not knowing when we might choose to breach the agreement with the mechanics of doing so already in place. I am not entirely confident that this has improved our negotiating position, our credibility or, frankly, our coherence. But the compromise is probably an improvement, at least marginally less stupid than what we had before. At the least it makes it clear that any breach of the WA is not imminent.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 7,191
    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,140
    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Whilst I agree with the principle of that I still don't see why we needed to have this debate now. We have seen on numerous occasions, most recently in relation to the rule of 6, that the government can legislate almost instantly if necessary.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,679
    edited September 18
    If the EU don't want the IM Bill's powers to be exercised then they can start being reasonable with the UK and compromise and get a deal. If there's a deal then there's no reason to exercise the powers of the IM Bill.

    Edit:
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Whilst I agree with the principle of that I still don't see why we needed to have this debate now. We have seen on numerous occasions, most recently in relation to the rule of 6, that the government can legislate almost instantly if necessary.
    This is why now. Because the negotiations are at their conclusion now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,844
    On topic (for the last thread):

    The Hill: Why Election Day is going to be an utter sh!t-show.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 223
    The amendment is window dressing to disguise the problems with the Bill and with an 80 seat majority does anyone believe the Tory MPs won’t just fall into line and vote to trigger those clauses .

    The amendment might have carried more weight if the government had to go through the dispute mechanism first before it could seek to activate those clauses .

    Here we have the ridiculous situation where the government triggers those clauses at the same time as its supposed to be working to find a solution with the EU .

    The Bill is DOA in the Lords and I can see this turning into a major stand off .

    The government might like this drama to deflect from the virus , and the right wing papers will lap this up but that doesn’t really help matters when January 1st is fast approaching.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782
    QT was actually worth watching last night.

    Prof Sunetra Gupta superb.

    Jon Ashworth woeful.
  • Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 3,004

    QT was actually worth watching last night.

    Prof Sunetra Gupta superb.

    Jon Ashworth woeful.

    Its almost like they are shutting down the economy in case we discover the truth, that we can easily run our country without these dreadfuly injurious lockdowns.

    When I advanced the arguments of Gutpa on here, which I have done continually since May of this year, poster after poster poured scorn on me for daring to question the COVID orthodoxy.

    How does that look now?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    I suspect she would be superior to Boris – even in her current state of being.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 3,004
    They are desperate for us not to discover the colossal mistake they have made and will commit any calumny. The biggest policy error in the history of peacetime Britain. Period.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,844
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Whilst I agree with the principle of that I still don't see why we needed to have this debate now. We have seen on numerous occasions, most recently in relation to the rule of 6, that the government can legislate almost instantly if necessary.
    Presumably it’s to avoid the situation on 1st January, dealing with an organised group of people who want to prevent food exports to Northern Ireland by any legal means necessary, at a time when Parliament isn’t sitting.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 760
    Yes. Pfizer data might come as soon as mid Oct, Oxford shortly after.

    This government does not deserve to be dug out of its hole so easily but my goodness the people it governs certainly do.

    Meanwhile on Brexit it seems to me a deal is still in the offing, with those rumours that the EU will continue negotiating a FTA but insist it is only validated if all terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are upheld. Well duh... if there’s a FTA then this entire dispute about the Internal Markets Bill disappears.

    Looks to me like there’s an increasing chance Johnson is about to roll a double six. Good for him and good for the rest of us. What follows who knows.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 78,329
    edited September 18
    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Indeed, the EU and Barnier offered a Canada style FTA initially at least for GB then once the WA was passed by the UK government decided it was not on offer after all and the whole UK would have to comply with EU state aid rules for instance and not have control of its own fishing waters
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,066
    Looking through the North Carolina data. It's old people voting for Biden at the moment.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782
    Pulpstar said:

    Looking through the North Carolina data. It's old people voting for Biden at the moment.

    That doesn't bode too well for Trumpton, does it?
  • As a layman, I was puzzled from the outset what this Neil amendment had to do with the price of fish. So thanks for confirming my suspicions: that it was just about getting Boris through the next news cycle.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782
    Tottenham are cutting this fine if they want Bale available for Sunday.

    He has to register by 1200 BST.

    How long does it take to travel from Madrid to Enfield via private jet?

  • moonshine said:

    Yes. Pfizer data might come as soon as mid Oct, Oxford shortly after.

    This government does not deserve to be dug out of its hole so easily but my goodness the people it governs certainly do.

    Meanwhile on Brexit it seems to me a deal is still in the offing, with those rumours that the EU will continue negotiating a FTA but insist it is only validated if all terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are upheld. Well duh... if there’s a FTA then this entire dispute about the Internal Markets Bill disappears.

    Looks to me like there’s an increasing chance Johnson is about to roll a double six. Good for him and good for the rest of us. What follows who knows.
    Hopefully for all our sakes.

    Of course given the pressure the IM Bill has put on the EU to compromise . . . and given the swift funding and contracts the government have signed with both Pfizer and Oxford/AstraZenica . . . if a double six is rolled then it won't be entirely by accident.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Indeed, the EU and Barnier offered a Canada style FTA initially at least for GB then once the WA was passed by the UK government decided it was not on offer after all and the whole UK would have to comply with EU state aid rules for instance and not have control of its own fishing waters
    Of course when the EU "offered" Canada at the time it was done in the way of a threat. They were threatening us with only getting a Canada style deal as May at the time wanted more.

    Backfired when we turned around and said "ok that suits us fine" and left them in bad faith trying to row back on it.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Indeed, the EU and Barnier offered a Canada style FTA initially at least for GB then once the WA was passed by the UK government decided it was not on offer after all and the whole UK would have to comply with EU state aid rules for instance and not have control of its own fishing waters
    Then Boris should have got it in writing before he signed. I doubt a Power Point slide that someone drew up for illustrative purposes will have any legally binding force.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,066

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking through the North Carolina data. It's old people voting for Biden at the moment.

    That doesn't bode too well for Trumpton, does it?
    He might get his vote out later on.

    Some things I've noted:
    GOP 2020 registration has the strongest correlation with Trump vote
    Lenoir county fits precisely onto the GOP 2020 - Trump margin best fit line, so not only is it precisely the county Biden needs to carry, it's also where a GOP reg vote in excess of 26.4% would be a good sign for Trump.
    We know Dems are more likely to vote by mail, so early numbers aren't the be all and end all.
    It voted 13,613 Trump to 12,634 Clinton
    Current returns are 583 Democrats, 75 GOP, 96 unaffiliated. (GOP 10%)
  • Seeing Hancock this morning, we are getting a second lockdown aren't we.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,038

    Tottenham are cutting this fine if they want Bale available for Sunday.

    He has to register by 1200 BST.

    How long does it take to travel from Madrid to Enfield via private jet?

    Unlikely he will play Sunday

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8745245/Tottenham-place-Gareth-Bale-intensive-training-programme-ensure-fully-fit.html
  • Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    That chart simply says that the UK's red lines imply an FTA based trading relationship not the closer relationship enjoyed by Switzerland or Norway. The precise form of the FTA will depend on the outcome of negotiations - indeed note that two different FTAs are shown here, which differ, so it is obvious that there is no single model on offer. Going into those negotiations, both sides have made maximalist opening demands, as is typical. The EU demanded that the UK follow its rules on state aid, adjudicated by the ECJ. The UK demanded total freedom to act. Neither position is reasonable, and hopefully a compromise can be reached. But to call it not negotiating in good faith is ridiculous - it is simply negotiating.
    The claim that the EU wants to blockade Northern Ireland is absurd. A blockade is an act of war under international law. When are Brexiteers going to stop being so hysterical and start sorting out the mess they've created? Time is running out.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,096
    isam said:
    isam said:

    Seeing Hancock this morning, we are getting a second lockdown aren't we.

    Surely not, the vaccine is just around the corner, Johnson’s going to roll a double six, no problem
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,844

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Indeed, the EU and Barnier offered a Canada style FTA initially at least for GB then once the WA was passed by the UK government decided it was not on offer after all and the whole UK would have to comply with EU state aid rules for instance and not have control of its own fishing waters
    Of course when the EU "offered" Canada at the time it was done in the way of a threat. They were threatening us with only getting a Canada style deal as May at the time wanted more.

    Backfired when we turned around and said "ok that suits us fine" and left them in bad faith trying to row back on it.
    Yes, “Canada” was on the table, until the day we said that was what we wanted.
  • isam said:
    I said in April / May time that the government could probably get away with some of the mistakes like testing and PPE first time around as most people could see everybody was struggling to keep up and all too easy to say why didn't you follow x country on this, but different country on that.

    However, they have now had 6 months to prep for this. I think the incomponence tag sticks forever with them.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,640



    That chart simply says that the UK's red lines imply an FTA based trading relationship not the closer relationship enjoyed by Switzerland or Norway. The precise form of the FTA will depend on the outcome of negotiations - indeed note that two different FTAs are shown here, which differ, so it is obvious that there is no single model on offer. Going into those negotiations, both sides have made maximalist opening demands, as is typical. The EU demanded that the UK follow its rules on state aid, adjudicated by the ECJ. The UK demanded total freedom to act. Neither position is reasonable, and hopefully a compromise can be reached. But to call it not negotiating in good faith is ridiculous - it is simply negotiating.
    The claim that the EU wants to blockade Northern Ireland is absurd. A blockade is an act of war under international law. When are Brexiteers going to stop being so hysterical and start sorting out the mess they've created? Time is running out.


    You are obviously sadly unaware of Lex PowerPoint which means anything put in a presentation has the full legal heft of international law.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,038

    isam said:
    I said in April / May time that the government could probably get away with some of the mistakes like testing and PPE first time around as most people could see everybody was struggling to keep up and all too easy to say why didn't you follow x country on this, but different country on that.

    However, they have now had 6 months to prep for this. I think the incomponence tag sticks forever with them.
    Sorry, it was a bit of a trap. That was from Sep 2019, three months before he turned a hung parliament into an 80 seat majority
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 3,891

    QT was actually worth watching last night.

    Prof Sunetra Gupta superb.

    Jon Ashworth woeful.

    Its almost like they are shutting down the economy in case we discover the truth, that we can easily run our country without these dreadfuly injurious lockdowns.

    When I advanced the arguments of Gutpa on here, which I have done continually since May of this year, poster after poster poured scorn on me for daring to question the COVID orthodoxy.

    How does that look now?
    Absolutely bang on the money, and you don't know what "calumny" means.
  • isam said:

    isam said:
    I said in April / May time that the government could probably get away with some of the mistakes like testing and PPE first time around as most people could see everybody was struggling to keep up and all too easy to say why didn't you follow x country on this, but different country on that.

    However, they have now had 6 months to prep for this. I think the incomponence tag sticks forever with them.
    Sorry, it was a bit of a trap. That was from Sep 2019, three months before he turned a hung parliament into an 80 seat majority
    Wooophs i fell for it. However, I think my point still stands, rather than divisions over Brexit, I believe all these mistakes and incomponence with stick when we have to Lockdown Harder this winter. There really isn't any excuses compared to March, where fairer minded Brits would see a situation that the whole world was struggling with.
  • Seeing Hancock this morning, we are getting a second lockdown aren't we.

    Inevitable.

    Or if you want to be optimistic we’re still in the first wave.

    So that wedding I’m supposed to be attending next week....
  • Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    That chart simply says that the UK's red lines imply an FTA based trading relationship not the closer relationship enjoyed by Switzerland or Norway. The precise form of the FTA will depend on the outcome of negotiations - indeed note that two different FTAs are shown here, which differ, so it is obvious that there is no single model on offer. Going into those negotiations, both sides have made maximalist opening demands, as is typical. The EU demanded that the UK follow its rules on state aid, adjudicated by the ECJ. The UK demanded total freedom to act. Neither position is reasonable, and hopefully a compromise can be reached. But to call it not negotiating in good faith is ridiculous - it is simply negotiating.
    The claim that the EU wants to blockade Northern Ireland is absurd. A blockade is an act of war under international law. When are Brexiteers going to stop being so hysterical and start sorting out the mess they've created? Time is running out.
    That's true. Looks like a South Korean deal was also compatible with our red lines. Why is that never now mentioned?
  • MaxPB said:

    Twitter vs Instagram - a case study based on gaming.

    Harry potter was revealed a couple of days ago for PS5 and there was a different reaction on both social networks.

    Twitter - we hate Harry Potter, it's a scandal the world should boycott this, transphobia!!!!!!!!!!!

    Instagram - more Harry Potter, fuck yeah!

    Which of these is connected to the real world?

    And hence my Instagram test for cut through of political issues and I've started taking it into account for betting purposes. It's a huge tell as to whether the wider population is talking about a given issue or they aren't.

    Surely even the loons on twitter know that JK Terf has bugger all to do with all the Harry Potter IP these days.
  • Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    That chart simply says that the UK's red lines imply an FTA based trading relationship not the closer relationship enjoyed by Switzerland or Norway. The precise form of the FTA will depend on the outcome of negotiations - indeed note that two different FTAs are shown here, which differ, so it is obvious that there is no single model on offer. Going into those negotiations, both sides have made maximalist opening demands, as is typical. The EU demanded that the UK follow its rules on state aid, adjudicated by the ECJ. The UK demanded total freedom to act. Neither position is reasonable, and hopefully a compromise can be reached. But to call it not negotiating in good faith is ridiculous - it is simply negotiating.
    The claim that the EU wants to blockade Northern Ireland is absurd. A blockade is an act of war under international law. When are Brexiteers going to stop being so hysterical and start sorting out the mess they've created? Time is running out.
    That's true. Looks like a South Korean deal was also compatible with our red lines. Why is that never now mentioned?
    It doesn't deliver the same white commonwealth nostalgia porn as mention of Canada or Australia does.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,287

    isam said:

    isam said:
    I said in April / May time that the government could probably get away with some of the mistakes like testing and PPE first time around as most people could see everybody was struggling to keep up and all too easy to say why didn't you follow x country on this, but different country on that.

    However, they have now had 6 months to prep for this. I think the incomponence tag sticks forever with them.
    Sorry, it was a bit of a trap. That was from Sep 2019, three months before he turned a hung parliament into an 80 seat majority
    Wooophs i fell for it. However, I think my point still stands, rather than divisions over Brexit, I believe all these mistakes and incomponence with stick when we have to Lockdown Harder this winter. There really isn't any excuses compared to March, where fairer minded Brits would see a situation that the whole world was struggling with.
    I agree, but of course the Americans, French and Spanish and some other European countries are also facing a second wave with assorted problems. So that may mitigate it to some extent.
  • Max on a related note (and I know you might be a tad bias due to previously working at Sony)....is it just me or does the PS5 and XBox Series X launches seem underwhelming. There are hardly seems to be any launch titles.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,244

    MaxPB said:

    Twitter vs Instagram - a case study based on gaming.

    Harry potter was revealed a couple of days ago for PS5 and there was a different reaction on both social networks.

    Twitter - we hate Harry Potter, it's a scandal the world should boycott this, transphobia!!!!!!!!!!!

    Instagram - more Harry Potter, fuck yeah!

    Which of these is connected to the real world?

    And hence my Instagram test for cut through of political issues and I've started taking it into account for betting purposes. It's a huge tell as to whether the wider population is talking about a given issue or they aren't.

    Surely even the loons on twitter know that JK Terf has bugger all to do with all the Harry Potter IP these days.
    She benefits from the royalties.
  • Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.


    She was also a scientist, she would have understood and questioned some of the Covid-19 science.

    Plus she also allowed herself to be overruled by the cabinet over the AIDS strategy, she didn’t get the hump, she backed it and sold it to the country.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,727

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.


    Post of the day.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 8,406

    MaxPB said:

    Twitter vs Instagram - a case study based on gaming.

    Harry potter was revealed a couple of days ago for PS5 and there was a different reaction on both social networks.

    Twitter - we hate Harry Potter, it's a scandal the world should boycott this, transphobia!!!!!!!!!!!

    Instagram - more Harry Potter, fuck yeah!

    Which of these is connected to the real world?

    And hence my Instagram test for cut through of political issues and I've started taking it into account for betting purposes. It's a huge tell as to whether the wider population is talking about a given issue or they aren't.

    Surely even the loons on twitter know that JK Terf has bugger all to do with all the Harry Potter IP these days.
    She wrote the last HP prequal movie.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 49,487
    edited September 18
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Twitter vs Instagram - a case study based on gaming.

    Harry potter was revealed a couple of days ago for PS5 and there was a different reaction on both social networks.

    Twitter - we hate Harry Potter, it's a scandal the world should boycott this, transphobia!!!!!!!!!!!

    Instagram - more Harry Potter, fuck yeah!

    Which of these is connected to the real world?

    And hence my Instagram test for cut through of political issues and I've started taking it into account for betting purposes. It's a huge tell as to whether the wider population is talking about a given issue or they aren't.

    Surely even the loons on twitter know that JK Terf has bugger all to do with all the Harry Potter IP these days.
    She benefits from the royalties.
    Yes i know...but by that logic, these loons would have to live in a mud hut off the land to not enrich anybody with as they see as some sort of -ist or -phobe.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,287

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.


    Saying that Boris is a terrible Prime Minister because he isn't as good as Mrs Thatcher is like saying a scientist is bad at his job because Einstein was better. Mrs Thatcher towers over any successor or predecessor. She was by far the best peacetime Prime Minister of the last century.

    A more realistic comparison would be with a mediocre but not terrible PM, such as Tony Blair or David Cameron.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,244

    Max on a related note (and I know you might be a tad bias due to previously working at Sony)....is it just me or does the PS5 and XBox Series X launches seem underwhelming. There are hardly seems to be any launch titles.

    Demon's Souls, I think for PS5 the PS+ game collection is hours of great games for it, especially for Xbox and PC gamers coming into the PS ecosystem. For me it's about replacing my almost broken PS4 and getting a 4k console.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,844

    Max on a related note (and I know you might be a tad bias due to previously working at Sony)....is it just me or does the PS5 and XBox Series X launches seem underwhelming. There are hardly seems to be any launch titles.

    And those that have been announced are mostly repackaged existing titles or sequels. Where’s this year’s Halo?
  • eekeek Posts: 9,462

    Max on a related note (and I know you might be a tad bias due to previously working at Sony)....is it just me or does the PS5 and XBox Series X launches seem underwhelming. There are hardly seems to be any launch titles.

    I think it takes far longer than it used to to get the games ready which means the consoles are always going to arrive first and the games later.
  • Well Khan is either being deliberately misleading or doesn't know his stuff. The reason CObRA haven't met is said that they weren't going to organise this via COBRA anymore, because it isn't an unexpected one off emergency. Its the JBC that handle this.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498

    isam said:

    isam said:
    I said in April / May time that the government could probably get away with some of the mistakes like testing and PPE first time around as most people could see everybody was struggling to keep up and all too easy to say why didn't you follow x country on this, but different country on that.

    However, they have now had 6 months to prep for this. I think the incomponence tag sticks forever with them.
    Sorry, it was a bit of a trap. That was from Sep 2019, three months before he turned a hung parliament into an 80 seat majority
    Wooophs i fell for it. However, I think my point still stands, rather than divisions over Brexit, I believe all these mistakes and incomponence with stick when we have to Lockdown Harder this winter. There really isn't any excuses compared to March, where fairer minded Brits would see a situation that the whole world was struggling with.
    But much of the world is again struggling with case numbers that are either rising or persistently high. The idea that the rest of the world has cured it and only the British Isles remain a plague pit is oddly parochial:


    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/netherlands/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/belgium/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/poland/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/brazil/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/switzerland/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/canada/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/


    The last time I checked, none of these other countries were under the direct rule of World King Boris.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,066
    If the trade talks continue and we get a deal (Even a deal that sells out our money, our laws and our borders so far as I'm concerned) no harm, no foul.
    No tariffs ta.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,844

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.


    She was also a scientist, she would have understood and questioned some of the Covid-19 science.

    Plus she also allowed herself to be overruled by the cabinet over the AIDS strategy, she didn’t get the hump, she backed it and sold it to the country.
    The AIDS campaign was quite astonishing for the time, and totally transformative. Saved tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives.
  • DavidL said:

    So how exactly does a UK minister deciding that cheddar can be sent to NI even although it is no longer an approved foodstuff for the EU affect the personal rights of citizens of NI or rUK?

    The clause in the bill which is the subject of the compromise gives the government to regulate certain matters in relation to the supply of goods in certain situations, now subject to the approval of the Commons. There are other provisions in the bill seeking to ouster Judicial review. They may be problematic for reasons discussed on yesterday's thread in the context of Rozenburg's piece but they are not directly relevant to the compromise/amendment. I don't agree with this critique of the header.

    A much more fundamental issue is not whether this compromise is acceptable to Parliament (it probably is) but whether it is acceptable to the EU. What we have said is that in certain circumstances we will breach the WA. We have not been entirely clear what those circumstances are. Lord Keen suggested, sensibly, that they would be where the EU had already breached the WA but he was shot down and resigned, a sad loss. So we are left with our negotiating partner and indeed future negotiating partners not knowing when we might choose to breach the agreement with the mechanics of doing so already in place. I am not entirely confident that this has improved our negotiating position, our credibility or, frankly, our coherence. But the compromise is probably an improvement, at least marginally less stupid than what we had before. At the least it makes it clear that any breach of the WA is not imminent.

    It is also a grab back of the limited powers Scottish Government has , an absolute disgrace but great for independence.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,244
    Sandpit said:

    Max on a related note (and I know you might be a tad bias due to previously working at Sony)....is it just me or does the PS5 and XBox Series X launches seem underwhelming. There are hardly seems to be any launch titles.

    And those that have been announced are mostly repackaged existing titles or sequels. Where’s this year’s Halo?
    Halo Infinite got delayed, it will probably end up being a 2022 release as they need to write a whole new next gen game engine and redo all of the assets. The main problem with Infinite is that it was built on the old Halo 5 game engine which was inherited from Bungie and that was a modified version of the Halo 3 engine which was a 360 game. 343i just don't seem up to the job of developing the premier Xbox franchise.
  • You do have to admire the mental gymnastics the Brexiteers come up with to justify the relentless list of their failures to heed what sensible people say. The idea that it's all the EU's fault because they put the word 'Canada' on a broad-brush slide is the latest and one of the funniest. Bravo!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,244

    You do have to admire the mental gymnastics the Brexiteers come up with to justify the relentless list of their failures to heed what sensible people say. The idea that it's all the EU's fault because they put the word 'Canada' on a broad-brush slide is the latest and one of the funniest. Bravo!

    It's not that simple as has been explained to you many, many times. Barnier has said specifically that due to the UK red lines the destination of UK-EU trade is going to be Canada. When the UK accepted that Canada was the likely destination and asked for it suddenly it was never a possibility.
  • You know you really can be quite a twat sometimes Malcolm. Try showing a little more humility and tolerance.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,462
    Fishing said:

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.


    Saying that Boris is a terrible Prime Minister because he isn't as good as Mrs Thatcher is like saying a scientist is bad at his job because Einstein was better. Mrs Thatcher towers over any successor or predecessor. She was by far the best peacetime Prime Minister of the last century.

    A more realistic comparison would be with a mediocre but not terrible PM, such as Tony Blair or David Cameron.
    Where Boris would equally lose - although with Cameron it's a closer run thing due to his stupidity in holding a referendum and holding that referendum in the way he did.

    In reality I think you can compare Boris with the poorer PMs so Brown and May and Boris would still be found completely wanting
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 1,369

    isam said:

    isam said:
    I said in April / May time that the government could probably get away with some of the mistakes like testing and PPE first time around as most people could see everybody was struggling to keep up and all too easy to say why didn't you follow x country on this, but different country on that.

    However, they have now had 6 months to prep for this. I think the incomponence tag sticks forever with them.
    Sorry, it was a bit of a trap. That was from Sep 2019, three months before he turned a hung parliament into an 80 seat majority
    Wooophs i fell for it. However, I think my point still stands, rather than divisions over Brexit, I believe all these mistakes and incomponence with stick when we have to Lockdown Harder this winter. There really isn't any excuses compared to March, where fairer minded Brits would see a situation that the whole world was struggling with.
    But much of the world is again struggling with case numbers that are either rising or persistently high. The idea that the rest of the world has cured it and only the British Isles remain a plague pit is oddly parochial:


    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/netherlands/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/belgium/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/poland/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/brazil/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/switzerland/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/canada/

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/


    The last time I checked, none of these other countries were under the direct rule of World King Boris.
    The obsession that Boris has mucked it up all up and other countries are doing great is bizarre.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596
    MaxPB said:

    Twitter vs Instagram - a case study based on gaming.

    Harry potter was revealed a couple of days ago for PS5 and there was a different reaction on both social networks.

    Twitter - we hate Harry Potter, it's a scandal the world should boycott this, transphobia!!!!!!!!!!!

    Instagram - more Harry Potter, fuck yeah!

    Which of these is connected to the real world?

    And hence my Instagram test for cut through of political issues and I've started taking it into account for betting purposes. It's a huge tell as to whether the wider population is talking about a given issue or they aren't.

    Dunno - but on the row started by that Telegraph reviewer I went out and ordered her latest book on Amazon.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,596
    The House Transportation Committee report on the Boeing 737 Max is utterly damning of both Boeing and the FAA:

    https://transportation.house.gov/imo/media/doc/2020.09.15 FINAL 737 MAX Report for Public Release.pdf
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,844
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Max on a related note (and I know you might be a tad bias due to previously working at Sony)....is it just me or does the PS5 and XBox Series X launches seem underwhelming. There are hardly seems to be any launch titles.

    And those that have been announced are mostly repackaged existing titles or sequels. Where’s this year’s Halo?
    Halo Infinite got delayed, it will probably end up being a 2022 release as they need to write a whole new next gen game engine and redo all of the assets. The main problem with Infinite is that it was built on the old Halo 5 game engine which was inherited from Bungie and that was a modified version of the Halo 3 engine which was a 360 game. 343i just don't seem up to the job of developing the premier Xbox franchise.
    I didn’t mean where’s this year’s version of the old game, I meant where’s the brand new game that will drive day 1 sales of the console, as the original Halo did for the Xbox?

    Maybe I’m just getting old, but IMO the gaming industry has gone like Hollywood in recent years - churning out the same old same old, with little innovation or risk taking going on. The only innovation has been the pricing models, that charge you £60 for the game but then need £60 more to actually get anything out of it.
  • MaxPB said:

    You do have to admire the mental gymnastics the Brexiteers come up with to justify the relentless list of their failures to heed what sensible people say. The idea that it's all the EU's fault because they put the word 'Canada' on a broad-brush slide is the latest and one of the funniest. Bravo!

    It's not that simple as has been explained to you many, many times. Barnier has said specifically that due to the UK red lines the destination of UK-EU trade is going to be Canada. When the UK accepted that Canada was the likely destination and asked for it suddenly it was never a possibility.
    Indeed it really is that simple, but then Mr Nabavi still hasn't understood the very basic concept that if we were to be willing to extend the transition (or last year the A50 period) then the EU have no reason to compromise.

    Boris is playing dirty and hardball during a negotiation.
    The EU have been playing dirty and hardball during a negotiation.

    All is fair in love and war.

    By this time next year we could have long since started our trade deal and have all been immunised from COVID19. If so, Boris will deserve credit on both counts - not that I expect he'll get it on either.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498
    Wait a minute, wasn't Ewan McGregor fighting the Separatists in those films?
  • MaxPB said:

    You do have to admire the mental gymnastics the Brexiteers come up with to justify the relentless list of their failures to heed what sensible people say. The idea that it's all the EU's fault because they put the word 'Canada' on a broad-brush slide is the latest and one of the funniest. Bravo!

    It's not that simple as has been explained to you many, many times. Barnier has said specifically that due to the UK red lines the destination of UK-EU trade is going to be Canada. When the UK accepted that Canada was the likely destination and asked for it suddenly it was never a possibility.

    What does the EU/Canada deal say about the rights of Canadian lorry drivers to transport goods inside the EU?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,844
    edited September 18

    The House Transportation Committee report on the Boeing 737 Max is utterly damning of both Boeing and the FAA:

    https://transportation.house.gov/imo/media/doc/2020.09.15 FINAL 737 MAX Report for Public Release.pdf

    Yes, that’s very good. One of the most high profile failures of regulatory oversight in living memory. It reads like the Challenger and Columbia reports (a good documentary on the former has just landed on Netflix BTW).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,990
    edited September 18
    MaxPB said:

    You do have to admire the mental gymnastics the Brexiteers come up with to justify the relentless list of their failures to heed what sensible people say. The idea that it's all the EU's fault because they put the word 'Canada' on a broad-brush slide is the latest and one of the funniest. Bravo!

    It's not that simple as has been explained to you many, many times. Barnier has said specifically that due to the UK red lines the destination of UK-EU trade is going to be Canada. When the UK accepted that Canada was the likely destination and asked for it suddenly it was never a possibility.
    I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. The EU has never said that the exact same treaty word-for-word could be signed with the UK, nor has the UK ever asked for it, nor would it make the slightest sense - not only because of the City, but also because of the much closer geographical and trade links between the UK and the EU. 'Canada-style' was just a shorthand for a rather loose trade deal. That of course is still available, but the EU, as a united group of 27 sovereign states, is perfectly entitled to insist on whatever conditions it pleases. It's not the EU's fault that Boris rejected the far better Northern Irish Protocol that they'd agreed with Theresa May, and it's certainly not their fault that he has boxed us in to a ludicrous deadline in the middle of a global pandemic with a cliff-edge in a few weeks' time and done no serious preparations for it, despite them pointing out repeatedly that this was not a good idea.
  • Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.

    The final point is absolutely key - and was the consequence of the first three.

  • Wait a minute, wasn't Ewan McGregor fighting the Separatists in those films?
    He was, though fighting the Separatists led to the seizing of power from the Senate to the Chancellor and the Republic became the evil Empire.
  • MaxPB said:

    You do have to admire the mental gymnastics the Brexiteers come up with to justify the relentless list of their failures to heed what sensible people say. The idea that it's all the EU's fault because they put the word 'Canada' on a broad-brush slide is the latest and one of the funniest. Bravo!

    It's not that simple as has been explained to you many, many times. Barnier has said specifically that due to the UK red lines the destination of UK-EU trade is going to be Canada. When the UK accepted that Canada was the likely destination and asked for it suddenly it was never a possibility.
    But that's not the only reasonable interpretation of the Staircase of Doom. After all, there's a step below Canada / S Korea; pure WTO terms. It could be "Based on the UK's red lines, the closest relationship possible is a Canada-style FTA. So we need to work out what the exact rights and obligations are going to be, given that there's a lot more trade going to be covered."

    Just because the EU have a certain deal with Canada, they are under no obligation to offer a "find Canada / replace UK" copy to us. And if UK negotiators really thought that was ever on offer, based on that powerpoint slide they are even more naive muppets than I thought.

    The DD vision of Brexit was always about the UK getting something for nothing. The endgame looks like that plan is going as well as it deserves to.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 612

    If the EU don't want the IM Bill's powers to be exercised then they can start being reasonable with the UK and compromise and get a deal. If there's a deal then there's no reason to exercise the powers of the IM Bill.

    Edit:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Whilst I agree with the principle of that I still don't see why we needed to have this debate now. We have seen on numerous occasions, most recently in relation to the rule of 6, that the government can legislate almost instantly if necessary.
    This is why now. Because the negotiations are at their conclusion now.
    Well yes, it is - afterall - like a divorce and 'playing dirty' (as I think you put it) could be effective:

    Mother: There is one issue that really concerns me, little NIall. He has a history of violence and pyromania, so before we do childcare arrangements, I'd like us to confirm that neither of us are going to give him matches and that you'll keep your matches behind a locked door with checks on entry and exit - as we agreed before we split up.
    Father: That's not reasonable, I'm divorcing you to get my freedom, if I can't give NIall matches then I have no freedom (not that I'm planning to give NIall matches, obviously, but I won't be locked into an agreement on that) and anyway, what we agreed, the checks going in and out of the storeroom, puts an unacceptable border within my family
    Mother: It's really a red line for me, we can't even discuss childcare arrangements until you promise not to give him matches and to take the precautions agreed
    Father: I'm going to call your bluff. If you don't give in on this I'm going to go and buy a load of matches now and, if you haven't given in on this by the end of the year, I'll give them to NIall

    Now sure, it might work, the mother might feel compelled to give in to stop NIall setting fire to himself and/or others - particularly his big sister Emerald - but anyone observing this is going to think the father is a complete bell-end and probably not want to let their kids any where near him. You could say it does his reputation and his future prospects no good, even if he wins on this particular issue.
  • You know you really can be quite a twat sometimes Malcolm. Try showing a little more humility and tolerance.
    When we were climbing Ben Lomond over the summer, my soft southern Jessie kids were moaning about the midges and how tired they were, and a Scottish gentleman of a certain age strode past us up the mountain. As he passed, he muttered gruffly in our general direction "the suffering makes you stronger." I like to think that if he was not Malcolm himself, he may have been a close acquaintance. PB is a better place for his caustic common sense.
    I should add that despite the constant whining the kids all made it to the top, even the seven year old, and were rewarded with a view that certainly shut them up!
  • Fishing said:

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.


    Saying that Boris is a terrible Prime Minister because he isn't as good as Mrs Thatcher is like saying a scientist is bad at his job because Einstein was better. Mrs Thatcher towers over any successor or predecessor. She was by far the best peacetime Prime Minister of the last century.

    A more realistic comparison would be with a mediocre but not terrible PM, such as Tony Blair or David Cameron.
    The point is that Thatcher was a good PM because of those character traits. It is immaterial whether she was the best or not. I would expect any half way decent PM to exhibit most, if not all, of those traits.

    Johnson exhibits none of them.
  • MaxPB said:

    You do have to admire the mental gymnastics the Brexiteers come up with to justify the relentless list of their failures to heed what sensible people say. The idea that it's all the EU's fault because they put the word 'Canada' on a broad-brush slide is the latest and one of the funniest. Bravo!

    It's not that simple as has been explained to you many, many times. Barnier has said specifically that due to the UK red lines the destination of UK-EU trade is going to be Canada. When the UK accepted that Canada was the likely destination and asked for it suddenly it was never a possibility.
    But that's not the only reasonable interpretation of the Staircase of Doom. After all, there's a step below Canada / S Korea; pure WTO terms. It could be "Based on the UK's red lines, the closest relationship possible is a Canada-style FTA. So we need to work out what the exact rights and obligations are going to be, given that there's a lot more trade going to be covered."

    Just because the EU have a certain deal with Canada, they are under no obligation to offer a "find Canada / replace UK" copy to us. And if UK negotiators really thought that was ever on offer, based on that powerpoint slide they are even more naive muppets than I thought.

    The DD vision of Brexit was always about the UK getting something for nothing. The endgame looks like that plan is going as well as it deserves to.
    Also, the EU didn't offer Canada the Canada deal as their opening gambit, it was the result of years of negotiations. Brexiteers' reaction to this simply displays their ignorance on how negotiations are conducted.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,887
    Sandpit said:

    There’s a small but influential group of people in politics and media who have been driven totally mad by the decision to leave the EU, and think that the government can’t possibly do anything right.

    No, they think the Government can't do anything right because the Government have so far fucked up everything they touch
  • You know you really can be quite a twat sometimes Malcolm. Try showing a little more humility and tolerance.
    When we were climbing Ben Lomond over the summer, my soft southern Jessie kids were moaning about the midges and how tired they were, and a Scottish gentleman of a certain age strode past us up the mountain. As he passed, he muttered gruffly in our general direction "the suffering makes you stronger." I like to think that if he was not Malcolm himself, he may have been a close acquaintance. PB is a better place for his caustic common sense.
    I should add that despite the constant whining the kids all made it to the top, even the seven year old, and were rewarded with a view that certainly shut them up!
    I just find his thoughtless constant attacks on anything vaguely good or decent to be frustrating. All the more so because I agree with so much of what he wants. I want to agree with him and do so on the substance but the delivery is frankly offensive.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,776

    Thanks Cyclefree.

    Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever consider I would celebrate the return, as Prime Minister, of Mrs Thatcher. But today, I would.

    Is She back from beyond the grave?
    If Mrs T were installed in Number 10 in her current form, would she really do any worse than Johnson?

    Really?
    There are so many fundamental differences.

    Thatcher had a strong work ethic and so was on top of her brief. Johnson isn't.

    Thatcher genuinely believed what she was doing was for the best for the country. Even though obviously many people didn't share her view, it was at least a belief that what she was doing was for the common good. Johnson cares about nothing but his own self aggrandizement.

    Thatcher had a political philosophy that guided her actions. Again many may have disagreed with that philosophy but it did at least lend a coherence to her actions and decisions. Johnson is too lazy and too dumb to follow any philosophy, political or otherwise.

    Finally Thatcher surrounded herself with people who were generally both competent and intelligent. Fools didn't tend to last very long and there was at least still an element of personal responsibility for ones ministries and departments. No one in this government seems to have the faintest notion what personal responsibility means.


    I might add. Thatcher had a simple, strong, consistent message.
    Again, many vehemently disagreed with it, but nevertheless it didn't change depending on the audience.
    Johnson likes to please.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,640
    The NHS Spitfire is off the charts cringe.

  • Selebian said:

    If the EU don't want the IM Bill's powers to be exercised then they can start being reasonable with the UK and compromise and get a deal. If there's a deal then there's no reason to exercise the powers of the IM Bill.

    Edit:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    At the risk of adding balance to the debate, the WA also commits the EU to negotiate a trade deal in good faith. They are quite clearly not doing so, based on their own discussions from only a year ago, seemingly unable to understand that the UK will become an independent state.



    That a government, any government, should take extraordinary measures if required *to feed its own people* shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone.

    Whilst I agree with the principle of that I still don't see why we needed to have this debate now. We have seen on numerous occasions, most recently in relation to the rule of 6, that the government can legislate almost instantly if necessary.
    This is why now. Because the negotiations are at their conclusion now.
    Well yes, it is - afterall - like a divorce and 'playing dirty' (as I think you put it) could be effective:

    Mother: There is one issue that really concerns me, little NIall. He has a history of violence and pyromania, so before we do childcare arrangements, I'd like us to confirm that neither of us are going to give him matches and that you'll keep your matches behind a locked door with checks on entry and exit - as we agreed before we split up.
    Father: That's not reasonable, I'm divorcing you to get my freedom, if I can't give NIall matches then I have no freedom (not that I'm planning to give NIall matches, obviously, but I won't be locked into an agreement on that) and anyway, what we agreed, the checks going in and out of the storeroom, puts an unacceptable border within my family
    Mother: It's really a red line for me, we can't even discuss childcare arrangements until you promise not to give him matches and to take the precautions agreed
    Father: I'm going to call your bluff. If you don't give in on this I'm going to go and buy a load of matches now and, if you haven't given in on this by the end of the year, I'll give them to NIall

    Now sure, it might work, the mother might feel compelled to give in to stop NIall setting fire to himself and/or others - particularly his big sister Emerald - but anyone observing this is going to think the father is a complete bell-end and probably not want to let their kids any where near him. You could say it does his reputation and his future prospects no good, even if he wins on this particular issue.
    A rather inexact analogy. Especially because you forgot to mention the fact that little Niall lives with the Father and not the Mother or Emerald. The Mother has also agreed she has no ability to change childcare arrangements without Niall agreeing to the change and Niall prefers living with the Father.
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