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A back down by Boris on his “break international law Bill” ? – politicalbetting.com

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  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-if-the-rule-of-six-fails-to-work

    If you want to go to the pub or have any life at all that's worth living, I suggest you do it now. It's not going to last. We're going into lockdown again.

    Logically one would've thought that we're not going back to April, because the country can't afford another lockdown and it would reduce the economy to rubble. In practice, however, the Government are such a completely useless shower that you can imagine them getting us back there through an escalating series of measures. Put simply, I think the longer the testing problems go on for, and the hospital numbers creep up despite the new measures - both of which look highly likely to happen - the more panicky and desperate they will become.

    On the one hand, reluctance to impose another lockdown because they don't want to extend the furlough and try to borrow another two or three hundred billion quid to hose the burning economy down with money. On the other hand, increasingly loud screaming from under-pressure hospitals and morgues filling back up with octogenarians. The risk from all this is that they don't administer a single killer blow to the economy, but that they do slowly strangle it to death through salami slicing measures like curfews, more and more picky and restrictive masking rules, and more radical social distancing measures (like dumping the rule of six and just telling people to have no social contact at all with anyone outside their own household, except to attend to essential care needs.)

    Meanwhile, it is reported that Sweden - which continues to refuse to force people to go around in masks - has just registered its *lowest* seven-day average value for new cases for six months. The medical profession seems to have made some meaningful progress in terms of treatments for seriously ill patients, but do epidemiologists honestly have a substantially better idea of how this bloody disease works than they did in March?
    I just do not understand why parliamentarians are not demanding a full and frank debate on the strategy here during which we have a full discussion of Sweden.

    The executive is being left to make a mess of this day after day after day.

    I'd start by asking why Carl Heneghan hasn't been co-opted on to SAGE.
    They would never dare to entertain the possibility that the Swedes might've been onto something. The Government, the devolved administrations and the entirety of the Commons are all up to their necks in lockdown and the vast economic and social cost of it, the continuing restrictions, and the possibility of worse still to come. If there were even the suspicion that the whole policy had been worse than useless then it would completely destroy any remaining public confidence in Britain's governance and practically all of the people behind it. Everything would burn except the Monarchy.

    The current mechanism of imposing draconian restrictions until the problem subsides, easing them and then tightening them again in seemingly endless cycles until a vaccine or a cure is found *might* be the least worst option, but if it turns out not to be then the likelihood of the people who've been enforcing it for all this time admitting the fact is absolutely zero.
    This is just wrong. No UK government would have got away with doing a Sweden when no other country in the world was; the pressure to u turn as the numbers rose wouldhave been irresistible. Not that doing a Sweden was as different as people think it was.
    And now? Now we have Sweden as an example.
    Sweden will lift its first lock down measure in October - Care home visits will be allowed again.

    For the entirety of this year you were able to fly in to the UK from New York, even at the height of the New York pandemic. You haven't been able to fly into Sweden from America since the 19th of March. And that ban remains in effect u til November at the earliest.
  • The story is rather disingenuous. If you go on shutterstock and search military, its the first result...that is clearly what happened.

    and it isn't even a real photo, its a 3d mock up made by an artist.
    It does not hurt to get things right. It just takes a bit of effort.

    Surely with the resources of the US govt and military, they could have got some pictures to use?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,586

    Davidson isn't going to last very long on YouTube with this sort of racist "comedy"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8736507/Jim-Davidson-sparks-Twitter-fury-racist-YouTube-rant.html

    Bloody wokeists! Jim's a great guy, just ask Alison Holloway.
    The wokeists are currently too busy burning JK Rowling's latest book.
    Why should I be burning it?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    justin124 said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT - Laurence Fox is a good example of someone who was previously of the soft metro Left but who had doubts about identity politics.

    The reaction of the radical Left to that having driven him to the alt-right.

    He makes shit up because he has no understanding about history.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51233734

    Whereas the Wokeists' historical knowledge is always perfect and without flaw...

    https://twitter.com/CucuillinSkyes/status/1302829629816930304

    https://twitter.com/MarkBednar/status/1281611428739395586
    Wrong country.
    Sadly the wokeist idiocy has gone global. Plenty of them in the UK too.
    But the teaching of history in the UK has to be better than the US - judging from films, it could hardly be worse ...
    It’s brilliantly taught. All history teachers in the UK are totally awesome and deserve double the pay.
    A persuasive point.
    Though what went wrong (for example) with @TSE and @Morris_Dancer ?
    Oi! My historical knowledge is awesome, I have an 'A' in A Level history when A Levels were difficult.
    They were already a lot easier in the 1990s than prior to the late 1980s!
    That makes no sense - the history syllabus surely got 10 years larger between the 1980s and the 1990s?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-if-the-rule-of-six-fails-to-work

    If you want to go to the pub or have any life at all that's worth living, I suggest you do it now. It's not going to last. We're going into lockdown again.

    Logically one would've thought that we're not going back to April, because the country can't afford another lockdown and it would reduce the economy to rubble. In practice, however, the Government are such a completely useless shower that you can imagine them getting us back there through an escalating series of measures. Put simply, I think the longer the testing problems go on for, and the hospital numbers creep up despite the new measures - both of which look highly likely to happen - the more panicky and desperate they will become.

    On the one hand, reluctance to impose another lockdown because they don't want to extend the furlough and try to borrow another two or three hundred billion quid to hose the burning economy down with money. On the other hand, increasingly loud screaming from under-pressure hospitals and morgues filling back up with octogenarians. The risk from all this is that they don't administer a single killer blow to the economy, but that they do slowly strangle it to death through salami slicing measures like curfews, more and more picky and restrictive masking rules, and more radical social distancing measures (like dumping the rule of six and just telling people to have no social contact at all with anyone outside their own household, except to attend to essential care needs.)

    Meanwhile, it is reported that Sweden - which continues to refuse to force people to go around in masks - has just registered its *lowest* seven-day average value for new cases for six months. The medical profession seems to have made some meaningful progress in terms of treatments for seriously ill patients, but do epidemiologists honestly have a substantially better idea of how this bloody disease works than they did in March?
    I just do not understand why parliamentarians are not demanding a full and frank debate on the strategy here during which we have a full discussion of Sweden.

    The executive is being left to make a mess of this day after day after day.

    I'd start by asking why Carl Heneghan hasn't been co-opted on to SAGE.
    They would never dare to entertain the possibility that the Swedes might've been onto something. The Government, the devolved administrations and the entirety of the Commons are all up to their necks in lockdown and the vast economic and social cost of it, the continuing restrictions, and the possibility of worse still to come. If there were even the suspicion that the whole policy had been worse than useless then it would completely destroy any remaining public confidence in Britain's governance and practically all of the people behind it. Everything would burn except the Monarchy.

    The current mechanism of imposing draconian restrictions until the problem subsides, easing them and then tightening them again in seemingly endless cycles until a vaccine or a cure is found *might* be the least worst option, but if it turns out not to be then the likelihood of the people who've been enforcing it for all this time admitting the fact is absolutely zero.
    This is just wrong. No UK government would have got away with doing a Sweden when no other country in the world was; the pressure to u turn as the numbers rose wouldhave been irresistible. Not that doing a Sweden was as different as people think it was.
    And now? Now we have Sweden as an example.
    Showing us much less than you think

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/sweden/articles/what-life-is-really-like-in-lockdown-hating-sweden/
  • Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    When you have a govt that is passing bills to make itself immune to the Rule of Law, abrogating its own treaties, creating an informer network and talking of curfews, the comparison does not look all that much of a stretch.
    To be fair they haven't actually managed to pass the Enabling Act (oops) Internal Markets Act yet.
    Wanting to do it is enough. No British govt should even be entertaining the idea. This is 3rd world, tin-pot, El Presidente stuff.....
  • 6 weeks ago I was ridiculed on here by all and sundry for my view that it was a mistake to have enforced mask wearing in UK and that it would lead to an increase in cases. I see tonight a number of posts (including a comment from a GP) raising doubts regarding the mask policy.

    Mask wearing by the general public is such a massive error. We need to get back to social distancing.

    Oh, honestly... you should change your name to PostHocErgoProperHoc.

    --AS
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    When you have a govt that is passing bills to make itself immune to the Rule of Law, abrogating its own treaties, creating an informer network and talking of curfews, the comparison does not look all that much of a stretch.
    To be fair they haven't actually managed to pass the Enabling Act (oops) Internal Markets Act yet.
    Wanting to do it is enough. No British govt should even be entertaining the idea. This is 3rd world, tin-pot, El Presidente stuff.....
    I cannot disagree, sadly.
  • 6 weeks ago I was ridiculed on here by all and sundry for my view that it was a mistake to have enforced mask wearing in UK and that it would lead to an increase in cases. I see tonight a number of posts (including a comment from a GP) raising doubts regarding the mask policy.

    Mask wearing by the general public is such a massive error. We need to get back to social distancing.

    Oh, honestly... you should change your name to PostHocErgoProperHoc.

    --AS
    AS, your posts are the definition of quality over quantity. Few could have have put it more elegantly.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited September 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    We are responsible for our presents not our great-grandparents' pasts. Nevertheless comparisons between Johnson and Hitler bother me. Johnson is delinquent enough, as is the Conservative Party, without comparing them to genocidal madmen.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    edited September 2020

    6 weeks ago I was ridiculed on here by all and sundry for my view that it was a mistake to have enforced mask wearing in UK and that it would lead to an increase in cases. I see tonight a number of posts (including a comment from a GP) raising doubts regarding the mask policy.

    Mask wearing by the general public is such a massive error. We need to get back to social distancing.

    The lockdown worked.
    it did. I don't think it possible to repeat it though.

    If we wait until ICU cases and deaths rise before we act, the we really will be riding a tiger.

    Masks and Social distancing are the simplest and economically safest measures. Its a no brainer compared with the consequences of not doing so.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT - Laurence Fox is a good example of someone who was previously of the soft metro Left but who had doubts about identity politics.

    The reaction of the radical Left to that having driven him to the alt-right.

    He makes shit up because he has no understanding about history.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51233734

    Whereas the Wokeists' historical knowledge is always perfect and without flaw...

    https://twitter.com/CucuillinSkyes/status/1302829629816930304

    https://twitter.com/MarkBednar/status/1281611428739395586
    Wrong country.
    Sadly the wokeist idiocy has gone global. Plenty of them in the UK too.
    But the teaching of history in the UK has to be better than the US - judging from films, it could hardly be worse ...
    It’s brilliantly taught. All history teachers in the UK are totally awesome and deserve double the pay.
    A persuasive point.
    Though what went wrong (for example) with @TSE and @Morris_Dancer ?
    Oi! My historical knowledge is awesome, I have an 'A' in A Level history when A Levels were difficult.
    They were already a lot easier in the 1990s than prior to the late 1980s!
    That makes no sense - the history syllabus surely got 10 years larger between the 1980s and the 1990s?
    A level grades changed to being awarded on basis of Absolute Marking - rather than the Relative Marking system which preceded it before 1988.
  • Foxy said:

    6 weeks ago I was ridiculed on here by all and sundry for my view that it was a mistake to have enforced mask wearing in UK and that it would lead to an increase in cases. I see tonight a number of posts (including a comment from a GP) raising doubts regarding the mask policy.

    Mask wearing by the general public is such a massive error. We need to get back to social distancing.

    The lockdown worked.
    it did. I don't think it possible to repeat it though.

    If we wait until ICU cases and deaths rise before we act, the we really will be riding a tiger.

    Masks and Social distancing are the simplest and economically safest measures. Its a no brainer compared with the consequences of not doing so.
    And securing old peoples homes....
  • guybrush said:

    Take this with a pinch of salt, purely anecdotal... A friend of my mother's son-in-law came down with Covid-like symptoms last week. He had it earlier in the year - confirmed with antibody test. Troubling if true. Obviously, a sample size of one, but will be interesting to see if any similar stories come to light over the coming months.

    There has been a documented case in Hong Kong - first time quite sick (hospitalised) second time asymptomatic - caught by an airport arrival test.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    6 weeks ago I was ridiculed on here by all and sundry for my view that it was a mistake to have enforced mask wearing in UK and that it would lead to an increase in cases. I see tonight a number of posts (including a comment from a GP) raising doubts regarding the mask policy.

    Mask wearing by the general public is such a massive error. We need to get back to social distancing.

    The lockdown worked.
    it did. I don't think it possible to repeat it though.

    If we wait until ICU cases and deaths rise before we act, the we really will be riding a tiger.

    Masks and Social distancing are the simplest and economically safest measures. Its a no brainer compared with the consequences of not doing so.
    And securing old peoples homes....
    That is policy at present.
  • Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Well said :+1:
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    You also have to remember that before Johnson became pm he was well-known in Germany for being the clown who liked saying completely arseholey (to German ears) things like comparing the EU to Hitler.

    Anyway the cartoon looks quite accurate to me. "Democracy is the Enemy of The People" spot on Johnsonite slogan. Funny too.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    6 weeks ago I was ridiculed on here by all and sundry for my view that it was a mistake to have enforced mask wearing in UK and that it would lead to an increase in cases. I see tonight a number of posts (including a comment from a GP) raising doubts regarding the mask policy.

    Mask wearing by the general public is such a massive error. We need to get back to social distancing.

    The lockdown worked.
    it did. I don't think it possible to repeat it though.

    If we wait until ICU cases and deaths rise before we act, the we really will be riding a tiger.

    Masks and Social distancing are the simplest and economically safest measures. Its a no brainer compared with the consequences of not doing so.
    And securing old peoples homes....
    That is policy at present.
    Much more could and should be being done.
  • For once Brave Sir Boris didn't run away.....

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1305976313619111936?s=20

    In the past when the LotO wasn't available someone else stood in for the PM.....
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    And that's why you should listen to the European country that had the worst dictator, and not the country that managed never to have one at all ... wait, what?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    For once Brave Sir Boris didn't run away.....

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1305976313619111936?s=20

    In the past when the LotO wasn't available someone else stood in for the PM.....

    Yes could be popcorn time. Rayner will have a very different style, more flaming than forensic.
  • In the past when the LotO wasn't available someone else stood in for the PM.....

    Johnson is afraid of being upstaged.
  • Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    And that's why you should listen to the European country that had the worst dictator, and not the country that managed never to have one at all ... wait, what?
    What was Cromwell?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited September 2020
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    And that's why you should listen to the European country that had the worst dictator, and not the country that managed never to have one at all ... wait, what?
    Don't worry, nobody expects English xenophobes to think they ever have anything to learn from foreigners (except Americans)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    And that's why you should listen to the European country that had the worst dictator, and not the country that managed never to have one at all ... wait, what?
    Yes. No one alive today voted for Hitler.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited September 2020
    Foxy said:

    6 weeks ago I was ridiculed on here by all and sundry for my view that it was a mistake to have enforced mask wearing in UK and that it would lead to an increase in cases. I see tonight a number of posts (including a comment from a GP) raising doubts regarding the mask policy.

    Mask wearing by the general public is such a massive error. We need to get back to social distancing.

    The lockdown worked.
    it did. I don't think it possible to repeat it though.

    If we wait until ICU cases and deaths rise before we act, the we really will be riding a tiger.

    Masks and Social distancing are the simplest and economically safest measures. Its a no brainer compared with the consequences of not doing so.
    The big problem it seems to me is that governments, not just the English one, haven't given consideration to how you live with the virus. At least haven't shared it with the public. They have done lockdown, unlockdown and have talked about grand testing and vaccine programmes.

    Living with the virus means making choices because any form of social activity comes with a transmission risk attached. We have to choose our risks. Allowing all will result in the epidemic going out of control again. If the infection rate is on an exponential curve, as it it at the moment, we are collectively not managing our risks as well as we need to.

    Choosing to wear a mask becomes an enabler rather than a burdensome constraint in that context. It allows us to do an activity safely that wouldn't otherwise be possible, or by reducing infections through one activity it allows us to do another different activity without R going significantly beyond 1.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic process of Britain leaving the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    No one alive today bears responsibility for those crimes.
  • On topic, they want to legalize theft and bribery, the international law part is incidental
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Angela vs Boris sounds like fun. Bet Bozza bottles it.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    And that's why you should listen to the European country that had the worst dictator, and not the country that managed never to have one at all ... wait, what?
    What was Cromwell?
    Lord Protector. Totally different :wink:

    OK, 'never since the Restoration', if you prefer.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They support all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic process of Britain leaving the EU - through the EU's own agreed process.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    And people say the Germans have no sense of humour!
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-if-the-rule-of-six-fails-to-work

    If you want to go to the pub or have any life at all that's worth living, I suggest you do it now. It's not going to last. We're going into lockdown again.

    Logically one would've thought that we're not going back to April, because the country can't afford another lockdown and it would reduce the economy to rubble. In practice, however, the Government are such a completely useless shower that you can imagine them getting us back there through an escalating series of measures. Put simply, I think the longer the testing problems go on for, and the hospital numbers creep up despite the new measures - both of which look highly likely to happen - the more panicky and desperate they will become.

    On the one hand, reluctance to impose another lockdown because they don't want to extend the furlough and try to borrow another two or three hundred billion quid to hose the burning economy down with money. On the other hand, increasingly loud screaming from under-pressure hospitals and morgues filling back up with octogenarians. The risk from all this is that they don't administer a single killer blow to the economy, but that they do slowly strangle it to death through salami slicing measures like curfews, more and more picky and restrictive masking rules, and more radical social distancing measures (like dumping the rule of six and just telling people to have no social contact at all with anyone outside their own household, except to attend to essential care needs.)

    Meanwhile, it is reported that Sweden - which continues to refuse to force people to go around in masks - has just registered its *lowest* seven-day average value for new cases for six months. The medical profession seems to have made some meaningful progress in terms of treatments for seriously ill patients, but do epidemiologists honestly have a substantially better idea of how this bloody disease works than they did in March?
    I just do not understand why parliamentarians are not demanding a full and frank debate on the strategy here during which we have a full discussion of Sweden.

    The executive is being left to make a mess of this day after day after day.

    I'd start by asking why Carl Heneghan hasn't been co-opted on to SAGE.
    They would never dare to entertain the possibility that the Swedes might've been onto something. The Government, the devolved administrations and the entirety of the Commons are all up to their necks in lockdown and the vast economic and social cost of it, the continuing restrictions, and the possibility of worse still to come. If there were even the suspicion that the whole policy had been worse than useless then it would completely destroy any remaining public confidence in Britain's governance and practically all of the people behind it. Everything would burn except the Monarchy.

    The current mechanism of imposing draconian restrictions until the problem subsides, easing them and then tightening them again in seemingly endless cycles until a vaccine or a cure is found *might* be the least worst option, but if it turns out not to be then the likelihood of the people who've been enforcing it for all this time admitting the fact is absolutely zero.
    This is just wrong. No UK government would have got away with doing a Sweden when no other country in the world was; the pressure to u turn as the numbers rose wouldhave been irresistible. Not that doing a Sweden was as different as people think it was.
    And now? Now we have Sweden as an example.
    Showing us much less than you think

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/sweden/articles/what-life-is-really-like-in-lockdown-hating-sweden/
    Thanks. I've read this now and it didn't tell me anything I didn't know about the Swedish situation. I'm not one of those who think they haven't had a lockdown at all. They have done some things - like no concerts of more than 50 people, no standing at bars, work at home if you can and so on.

    What they didn't do is an almost complete shutdown, then reopen and then start talking about locking down again. It has been a steady as she goes approach.

    As Tegnell has said it is a policy that people will hopefully be able to cope with a while, maybe for a year or two, if there is no vaccine. Can we say that of our situation?

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    For once Brave Sir Boris didn't run away.....

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1305976313619111936?s=20

    In the past when the LotO wasn't available someone else stood in for the PM.....

    For once Brave Sir Boris didn't run away.....

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1305976313619111936?s=20

    In the past when the LotO wasn't available someone else stood in for the PM.....

    Thatcher took questions from Hattersley - and Biffen from Kinnock.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic process of Britain leaving the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    No one alive today bears responsibility for those crimes.
    Completely beside the point.

    You and everyone here knows the cartoon (and the other comments from Germans trying to draw some sort of equivalence with their own nation's 'experience') is crass, unfunny and way wide of the mark. You're defending it because
    a) Any attack on Boris and Brexit is fine
    b) Anything done by those clever, cultured folk on the continent is also fine.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    And that's why you should listen to the European country that had the worst dictator, and not the country that managed never to have one at all ... wait, what?
    Yes. No one alive today voted for Hitler.
    You can't be sure of that as the oldest person alive in Germany was born in 1908. But the number of people still alive who voted for hitler must be very very small.
  • Mail giving the government both barrels again...

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1305978303124307976?s=19
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    Trivialise crimes? Aren't you the bloke who described Britain's role in the slave trade as "unfortunate?"
  • kamski said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They support all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic process of Britain leaving the EU - through the EU's own agreed process.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    And people say the Germans have no sense of humour!
    There was humour?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.

  • a) Any attack on Boris and Brexit is fine
    b) Anything done by those clever, cultured folk on the continent is also fine.

    Hallelujah, finally you're getting it.
  • The story is rather disingenuous. If you go on shutterstock and search military, its the first result...that is clearly what happened.

    and it isn't even a real photo, its a 3d mock up made by an artist.
    For an ad produced by a pack of idiots. Professional malfeasance AND mispractice.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    Trivialise crimes? Aren't you the bloke who described Britain's role in the slave trade as "unfortunate?"
    I don't remember the exact comment, but I might have done - what would you describe it as?

    If I created a satirical cartoon comparing the cramped conditions aboard a Ryanair flight to the conditions aboard a British slave ship, I'd be in the ballpark.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic process of Britain leaving the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    No one alive today bears responsibility for those crimes.
    Completely beside the point.

    You and everyone here knows the cartoon (and the other comments from Germans trying to draw some sort of equivalence with their own nation's 'experience') is crass, unfunny and way wide of the mark. You're defending it because
    a) Any attack on Boris and Brexit is fine
    b) Anything done by those clever, cultured folk on the continent is also fine.
    I have an Aussie friend who asked if I was attending a 'Boris Johnson rally' when I paid a visit to
    Henley-on-Thames several years back. Perhaps internationally Boris invites those kind of comparisons.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-if-the-rule-of-six-fails-to-work

    If you want to go to the pub or have any life at all that's worth living, I suggest you do it now. It's not going to last. We're going into lockdown again.

    Logically one would've thought that we're not going back to April, because the country can't afford another lockdown and it would reduce the economy to rubble. In practice, however, the Government are such a completely useless shower that you can imagine them getting us back there through an escalating series of measures. Put simply, I think the longer the testing problems go on for, and the hospital numbers creep up despite the new measures - both of which look highly likely to happen - the more panicky and desperate they will become.

    On the one hand, reluctance to impose another lockdown because they don't want to extend the furlough and try to borrow another two or three hundred billion quid to hose the burning economy down with money. On the other hand, increasingly loud screaming from under-pressure hospitals and morgues filling back up with octogenarians. The risk from all this is that they don't administer a single killer blow to the economy, but that they do slowly strangle it to death through salami slicing measures like curfews, more and more picky and restrictive masking rules, and more radical social distancing measures (like dumping the rule of six and just telling people to have no social contact at all with anyone outside their own household, except to attend to essential care needs.)

    Meanwhile, it is reported that Sweden - which continues to refuse to force people to go around in masks - has just registered its *lowest* seven-day average value for new cases for six months. The medical profession seems to have made some meaningful progress in terms of treatments for seriously ill patients, but do epidemiologists honestly have a substantially better idea of how this bloody disease works than they did in March?
    I just do not understand why parliamentarians are not demanding a full and frank debate on the strategy here during which we have a full discussion of Sweden.

    The executive is being left to make a mess of this day after day after day.

    I'd start by asking why Carl Heneghan hasn't been co-opted on to SAGE.
    They would never dare to entertain the possibility that the Swedes might've been onto something. The Government, the devolved administrations and the entirety of the Commons are all up to their necks in lockdown and the vast economic and social cost of it, the continuing restrictions, and the possibility of worse still to come. If there were even the suspicion that the whole policy had been worse than useless then it would completely destroy any remaining public confidence in Britain's governance and practically all of the people behind it. Everything would burn except the Monarchy.

    The current mechanism of imposing draconian restrictions until the problem subsides, easing them and then tightening them again in seemingly endless cycles until a vaccine or a cure is found *might* be the least worst option, but if it turns out not to be then the likelihood of the people who've been enforcing it for all this time admitting the fact is absolutely zero.
    This is just wrong. No UK government would have got away with doing a Sweden when no other country in the world was; the pressure to u turn as the numbers rose wouldhave been irresistible. Not that doing a Sweden was as different as people think it was.
    And now? Now we have Sweden as an example.
    Showing us much less than you think

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/sweden/articles/what-life-is-really-like-in-lockdown-hating-sweden/
    Thanks. I've read this now and it didn't tell me anything I didn't know about the Swedish situation. I'm not one of those who think they haven't had a lockdown at all. They have done some things - like no concerts of more than 50 people, no standing at bars, work at home if you can and so on.

    What they didn't do is an almost complete shutdown, then reopen and then start talking about locking down again. It has been a steady as she goes approach.

    As Tegnell has said it is a policy that people will hopefully be able to cope with a while, maybe for a year or two, if there is no vaccine. Can we say that of our situation?

    In hindsight (I guess for you foresight), the Swedish route is less of a slamdunk mistake that it seemed at the time. However, it had the 12th worst Covid death rate in the world the last time I looked, compared with our 6th worst rate. It hasn't done particularly well on the economy either, although again better than us. I would say countries that moved fast into lockdown and reasonably fast out of it like Denmark, Germany and many other countries made the right call to avoid the initial onslaught. That decision will likely still be vindicated regardless of what happens next.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013

    FPT - Laurence Fox is a good example of someone who was previously of the soft metro Left but who had doubts about identity politics.

    The reaction of the radical Left to that having driven him to the alt-right.

    Yet again you deploy the old "Oh no, you've made me be a fascist arsewit" argument.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    No confidence motion in Lib Dem leadership of BCP council tonight - debate is 100 minutes in already, vote shouldn't be too far away...
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic process of Britain leaving the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    No one alive today bears responsibility for those crimes.
    Completely beside the point.

    You and everyone here knows the cartoon (and the other comments from Germans trying to draw some sort of equivalence with their own nation's 'experience') is crass, unfunny and way wide of the mark. You're defending it because
    a) Any attack on Boris and Brexit is fine
    b) Anything done by those clever, cultured folk on the continent is also fine.
    I have an Aussie friend who asked if I was attending a 'Boris Johnson rally' when I paid a visit to
    Henley-on-Thames several years back. Perhaps internationally Boris invites those kind of comparisons.
    Nonsense. There is no video evidence whatsoever of Boris ever having held a massive rally rammed full of thousands of cheering people:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em6EuSdEmvI
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited September 2020


    a) Any attack on Boris and Brexit is fine
    b) Anything done by those clever, cultured folk on the continent is also fine.

    Hallelujah, finally you're getting it.
    I got it a long time ago.
    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    That has always been my experience, and that's why it surprised me too.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Yes, I can only assume that Der Spiegel thinks Johnson is fair game because of his own well known "jokey" comparisons with WW2 and Hitler and the Nazis.

    But it is a cartoon - if Merkel started making those comparisons Germans would definitely be gobsmacked.
  • eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
  • It is a total shock that now that the schools have gone back there are more people with symptoms that may be Covid and therefore an increased demand for Covid tests.

    Well it appears to have been a shock to Cock & Dildo.
  • The Craven Capitulators, great live band.

    https://twitter.com/utb_smith/status/1305843381067821057?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    It is a total shock that now that the schools have gone back there are more people with symptoms that may be Covid and therefore an increased demand for Covid tests.

    Well it appears to have been a shock to Cock & Dildo.

    It looks to me not so much a problem of numbers as one of organisation, and of software.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    guybrush said:

    Take this with a pinch of salt, purely anecdotal... A friend of my mother's son-in-law came down with Covid-like symptoms last week. He had it earlier in the year - confirmed with antibody test. Troubling if true. Obviously, a sample size of one, but will be interesting to see if any similar stories come to light over the coming months.

    There has been a documented case in Hong Kong - first time quite sick (hospitalised) second time asymptomatic - caught by an airport arrival test.
    There have been quite a few documented cases of repeat Covid, but in most cases you cannot rule out relapse rather than secondry infection. The case in Hong Kong was shown to be a second illness due to a different strain, meaning the patient did not have immunity to the very similar second strain of COV2, but we can be sure that it was not the same infection returning months later.

    This is quite worrying, because it means that some people exposed to the virus do not build up immunity, and in the worst case everyone, including those who have already been tested positive should be vaccinated, when a vaccine arrives.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    I would not be so surprised if Das Bild (like the Sun) or Titanic (like private Eye) published this cartoon, but as I said Der Spiegel likes to think that it is a bit more serious.

    Your points are relevant, but these points should be made in the main article* not satirised in a bad taste cartoon.


    *Der Spiegel probably did do this, but I have not read the issue in which the cartoon appeared.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2020
    FF43 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
    Only about 16% of the electorate neither voted for Corbyn in 2017 or Boris in 2019
  • The mistake he's making there (so so many liberal elite commentators make it) is to assume the driver is money: the 2008 economic crisis.

    It absolutely isn't. It's about identity and culture.

    When will they learn? Will they ever learn?
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    Hitler wasn't competent.

    So another similarity.
  • Foxy said:

    It is a total shock that now that the schools have gone back there are more people with symptoms that may be Covid and therefore an increased demand for Covid tests.

    Well it appears to have been a shock to Cock & Dildo.

    It looks to me not so much a problem of numbers as one of organisation, and of software.
    And that was because someone in the system decided to navigate by "maximise the number of tests available" rather than "optimise the availability of tests to people needing them in the right place at the right time". They feel like they ought to be the same (and I'm sure they correlate), but they're not.

    It's the old Soviet "Ten million boots produced. All for left feet." joke updated.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013

    I don't know what it is about James Delingpole but the way he talks the way he writes what he says - it's all cringeworthy and embarrassing.

    I'm making the mistake of watching something on his "channel".

    It's like he's a socially inept 14-year old boy trapped in a 55-year old man's body, and desperate for both approval and attention.

    I think his main problem is that almost all the people with whom he spent the formative years of his young adulthood have grown up to be vastly more successful than he is. He's got some of the right instincts on culture, but he's also so fundamentally anti-rational as to be maddening.
    Delingpole is the perfect contra-indicator. Whatever position he holds on any issue will inevitably be the exact opposite of the correct one. Kind of like Trump in that regard, but even Trump was right about John Bolton being a war-mongering loon.
    Yeah. Sounds probable. I use Melanie Phillips myself.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
    Only about 16% of the electorate neither voted for Corbyn in 2017 or Boris in 2019
    HYUFD maths strikes again!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    Hitler wasn't competent.

    So another similarity.
    He was competent in conquering most of Europe, genocide of much of the Jewish population of Europe and reducing German unemployment after WW1.

    Most of what he was competent in was evil in intent but he was competent in doing it
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    Hitler wasn't competent.

    So another similarity.
    He was competent in conquering most of Europe, genocide of much of the Jewish population of Europe and reducing German unemployment after WW1.

    Most of what he was competent in was evil in intent but he was competent in doing it
    You sound as if you admire him!
  • The mistake he's making there (so so many liberal elite commentators make it) is to assume the driver is money: the 2008 economic crisis.

    It absolutely isn't. It's about identity and culture.

    When will they learn? Will they ever learn?

    I don't think he's saying that the driver is money.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
    Only about 16% of the electorate neither voted for Corbyn in 2017 or Boris in 2019
    HYUFD maths strikes again!
    40% plus 44% makes 84%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    Hitler wasn't competent.

    So another similarity.
    He was competent in conquering most of Europe, genocide of much of the Jewish population of Europe and reducing German unemployment after WW1.

    Most of what he was competent in was evil in intent but he was competent in doing it
    You sound as if you admire him!
    No I said he was evil, you can be evil and competent or a good person and incompetent, competence is nothing to do with morality by itself.

    Being a good person and competent is of course best of all but the 2 do not always go together
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    Hitler wasn't competent.

    So another similarity.
    He was competent in conquering most of Europe, genocide of much of the Jewish population of Europe and reducing German unemployment after WW1.

    Most of what he was competent in was evil in intent but he was competent in doing it
    Hitler thought he was a military genius, but he was not. Rather like some on PB .... ;)

  • Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.

    The cartoon doesn't "compare them [Germans in the 30s and 40s] to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU". You are totally misrepresenting it. It is doing something completely different: comparing the style of Boris Johnson - populism, denial of truth, lambasting his own previous positions, breaching trust, stirring up his supporters to blame outsiders and sinister foreigners - with that of Hitler.

    It's certainly a rather strong comparison, but one which in a cartoon is fair enough, because it contains a grain of truth, although no-one is remotely suggesting that Boris is as evil as Hitler. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU, which no-one in the EU has ever disputed, even though they regret it (or used to, I expect the latest antics of the UK have made them welcome it).
    It's surprising how much cartoons can touch a nerve. (I remember Adams at the Evening Standard stirring up much fury on here when he was occasionally disobliging about Theresa May.) Cartoons really serve the purpose of the medieval court jester - poking fun at the great and the good in a manner no one else would get away with.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    This is an attrocious post. You are claiming that people criticising Johnson are suggesting that he was worse than Hitler. No one on this forum has suggested that.

    Furthermore the implication is that people are not allowed to criticise a British Prime Minister. You should think carefully about where shutting down political criticism leads (which has occurred in many countries post 1945).
  • Mango said:

    I don't know what it is about James Delingpole but the way he talks the way he writes what he says - it's all cringeworthy and embarrassing.

    I'm making the mistake of watching something on his "channel".

    It's like he's a socially inept 14-year old boy trapped in a 55-year old man's body, and desperate for both approval and attention.

    I think his main problem is that almost all the people with whom he spent the formative years of his young adulthood have grown up to be vastly more successful than he is. He's got some of the right instincts on culture, but he's also so fundamentally anti-rational as to be maddening.
    Delingpole is the perfect contra-indicator. Whatever position he holds on any issue will inevitably be the exact opposite of the correct one. Kind of like Trump in that regard, but even Trump was right about John Bolton being a war-mongering loon.
    Yeah. Sounds probable. I use Melanie Phillips myself.
    It's more surprising with Phillips because she isn't stupid.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Davidson isn't going to last very long on YouTube with this sort of racist "comedy"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8736507/Jim-Davidson-sparks-Twitter-fury-racist-YouTube-rant.html

    Bloody wokeists! Jim's a great guy, just ask Alison Holloway.
    The wokeists are currently too busy burning JK Rowling's latest book.
    Why should I be burning it?
    There is no reason ever to burn books.
  • Mango said:

    FPT - Laurence Fox is a good example of someone who was previously of the soft metro Left but who had doubts about identity politics.

    The reaction of the radical Left to that having driven him to the alt-right.

    Yet again you deploy the old "Oh no, you've made me be a fascist arsewit" argument.
    Are you upset I'm not giving you enough credit?
  • Bravo! Just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier:

    https://twitter.com/gabrielmilland/status/1305967384935759874
  • An excellent summary of PB’s reaction to Kenosha:

    https://twitter.com/asteadwesley/status/1305909450667106304?s=21
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    Hitler wasn't competent.

    So another similarity.
    He was competent in conquering most of Europe, genocide of much of the Jewish population of Europe and reducing German unemployment after WW1.

    Most of what he was competent in was evil in intent but he was competent in doing it
    Hitler thought he was a military genius, but he was not. Rather like some on PB .... ;)
    Only Julius Caesar and Napoleon's armies conquered as much of continental Europe as Hitler did, until he invaded Russia he was an effective military leader
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
    Only about 16% of the electorate neither voted for Corbyn in 2017 or Boris in 2019
    That's a fair point. I actually think Johnson is worse than Corbyn. We will never know because Johnson happened and Corbyn didn't, but Johnson's thuggery is on a different level.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
    Only about 16% of the electorate neither voted for Corbyn in 2017 or Boris in 2019
    HYUFD maths strikes again!
    40% plus 44% makes 84%
    Apart from the certainty that some people are in both the 40% and the 44% you've forgotten about the large numbers of the electorate who didn't vote in one or both elections as well as people reaching voting age/dying since 2017.

    But you are correct that 44+40=84
  • The Craven Capitulators, great live band.

    https://twitter.com/utb_smith/status/1305843381067821057?s=20

    The country is being run by utter loons. We are all so fucked.
  • I see it's gone peak Godwin on here this evening.

    Think I'll come back in the morning.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    This is an attrocious post. You are claiming that people criticising Johnson are suggesting that he was worse than Hitler. No one on this forum has suggested that.

    Furthermore the implication is that people are not allowed to criticise a British Prime Minister. You should think carefully about where shutting down political criticism leads (which has occurred in many countries post 1945).
    There is a distinction between criticism of policy and personal loathing which some have forgotten the distinction between it seems
  • The mistake he's making there (so so many liberal elite commentators make it) is to assume the driver is money: the 2008 economic crisis.

    It absolutely isn't. It's about identity and culture.

    When will they learn? Will they ever learn?

    I don't think he's saying that the driver is money.
    No, but it's a silly argument which could equally be used to show that people from any number of countries have no fundamental differences between them.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
    Only about 16% of the electorate neither voted for Corbyn in 2017 or Boris in 2019
    HYUFD maths strikes again!
    40% plus 44% makes 84%
    Maths Fail!

    Using your argument anyone could claim that 86% of the population either voted for May in 2017 or Johnson in 2019. 42%+44%=84%

    Lets go one step further. 121% of the population voted for Cameron in 2015 or May in 2017 or Johnson in 2019.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    edited September 2020
    .

    The mistake he's making there (so so many liberal elite commentators make it) is to assume the driver is money: the 2008 economic crisis.

    It absolutely isn't. It's about identity and culture.

    When will they learn? Will they ever learn?

    I don't think he's saying that the driver is money.
    He's saying it's in response to the 2008 crisis, so he is. Because he's suggesting it's anemic economic growth and dwindling income growth that's the driver for Brexit and Scottish independence.

    It's not the explanation for either - it's totally wrong. It's about culture and identity.

    The Liberal Democrats (for one) really struggle with that because to admit it would take them onto ground they'd really rather not go. So they persist in thinking it's just about a bit of cash.
  • I see it's gone peak Godwin on here this evening.

    Think I'll come back in the morning.

    Bestimmt. Bis Morgen, liebe Freunde.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2020
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    "It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes. "

    There are very few Germans who do this and I am surprised Der Spiegel has published this cartoon. They are a well respected and serious centre left political magazine.
    Why are you surprised?

    What other newly-elected party leader in a modern democracy has conducted a purge of elected big names to rival the one that Johnson did? Not just out of the cabinet, but out of the party?

    What other prime minister in a modern democracy has shut down Parliament for his own convenience?

    The ends might justify the means in both cases (I don't think they do, but they might), but they put Johnson a long way off the reservation. And German journalists and cartoonists might have more reason to notice straws in the wind than others.

    It's not just about Brexit.
    Agreed with your depiction of the moral delinquency of Johnson and the Conservative Party. Anyone who supports them in their current guise should be ashamed of themselves. That is not a partisan comment. But it is important to confront what Johnson and the Conservative Party actually are, not relative to some awful historical reference.
    Only about 16% of the electorate neither voted for Corbyn in 2017 or Boris in 2019
    HYUFD maths strikes again!
    40% plus 44% makes 84%
    Apart from the certainty that some people are in both the 40% and the 44% you've forgotten about the large numbers of the electorate who didn't vote in one or both elections as well as people reaching voting age/dying since 2017.

    But you are correct that 44+40=84
    Some may have voted for Corbyn in 2017 and Boris in 2019 yes, especially in the Red Wall but unless you voted for May or the LDs or SNP or Plaid or Greens in 2017 and the LDs or SNP or Plaid or Greens in 2019 or you live in NI you voted for Corbyn or Boris or indeed Farage.

    Turnout in 2017 was 69% and 67% in 2019 so even including non voters and those who died or joined the register we can confidently say a majority of the electorate either voted for Corbyn or Boris or both
  • The mistake he's making there (so so many liberal elite commentators make it) is to assume the driver is money: the 2008 economic crisis.

    It absolutely isn't. It's about identity and culture.

    When will they learn? Will they ever learn?

    Really? I thought Conservatives detested identity politics?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    This is an attrocious post. You are claiming that people criticising Johnson are suggesting that he was worse than Hitler. No one on this forum has suggested that.

    Furthermore the implication is that people are not allowed to criticise a British Prime Minister. You should think carefully about where shutting down political criticism leads (which has occurred in many countries post 1945).
    There is a distinction between criticism of policy and personal loathing which some have forgotten the distinction between it seems
    I agree with this response, but that does not alter the fact that your previous remark was way over the mark. I repeat, no one here has claimed that Johnson is worse than Hitler.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    It's not even a new cartoon - just a retweet of one that appeared in December 2019 after the General Election. Which makes it look even more mental in that context.
    The willingness of some Germans to compare Britain voting to leave the EU (and then having the audacity to carry it through) to their own Nazi past is quite gobsmacking.
    No country in Europe knows better than Germany the consequenses of following a populist demogogue with contempt of the rule of law.
    Germans during the 1930s and 40s gave their enthusiastic support (not universally of course) to a dictator who openly espoused ridding the world of Jews and passed laws to do so, and cheered a policy of eastward invasion to enslave the citizens of those nations to create space for the German master race. They supported all these things until they lost. It betrays a concerning lack of remorse for the millions of victims of Nazi Germany that some Germans would trivialise these crimes enough to compare them to the democratic decision of Britain to leave the EU - through the EU's own agreed processes.

    And you doing it is equally pathetic for different reasons.
    I am surprised some on here haven't said 'well at least Hitler was competent' such is the loathing for Boris amongst many posters at present
    Hitler wasn't competent.

    So another similarity.
    He was competent in conquering most of Europe, genocide of much of the Jewish population of Europe and reducing German unemployment after WW1.

    Most of what he was competent in was evil in intent but he was competent in doing it
    Hitler thought he was a military genius, but he was not. Rather like some on PB .... ;)
    Only Julius Caesar and Napoleon's armies conquered as much of continental Europe as Hitler did, until he invaded Russia he was an effective military leader
    Your Honour, the Prosecution rests .....

  • No, but it's a silly argument which could equally be used to show that people from any number of countries have no fundamental differences between them.

    But he's not simply saying that either (you have to read the whole Twitter thread, obv.). He's saying that the way in which the English and Scottish electorates have diverged in recent years isn't due to any great differences in their political and social positions, but that they have each been stirred up by populist politicians exploiting real or perceived grievances by blaming the EU and England respectively. I don't know to what extent I'd agree, but it's an interesting and thought-provoking take. It certainly would explain the uncomfortable similarity between the denial of practical reality of the Brexiteers and that of the SNP in pushing their simplistic nostrums.
This discussion has been closed.