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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Scötterdämmerung. The Twilight of the Union?

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  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,393
    New Pennsylvania poll from Muhlenberg:

    Biden 49%
    Trump 45%
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    I for one would volunteer to help defend Scotland against a foreign invasion post-independence in whatever way I could. We all know England would be next anyway. If @HYUFD wouldn’t, that just says a lot about him.

    You can’t negotiate with tyrants and fascism.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Plenty of broth available in the soup kitchens though.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    HYUFD said:
    The Conservatives creeping ever closer back to 50%.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Plenty of broth available in the soup kitchens though.
    I remember the broth, I also remember pointing out to him that countries like Brazil and India would suffer badly despite their age profile, we all get things wrong.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    We sold the Czechs out at Munich in September 1938 - and failed to lift a finger when Hitler entered Prague in March 1939.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    justin124 said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    We sold the Czechs out at Munich in September 1938 - and failed to lift a finger when Hitler entered Prague in March 1939.
    Poland then. My bad.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,014
    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    However, you think English mothers should send their boys to Scotland if the government there has the temerity to hold a ballot on independence.

    Get a grip.

    Spend time with your fiancee.

    Eat some chocolate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    nichomar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Plenty of broth available in the soup kitchens though.
    I remember the broth, I also remember pointing out to him that countries like Brazil and India would suffer badly despite their age profile, we all get things wrong.
    India has a below average life expectancy and still a below average death rate, Brazil has an above average life expectancy
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    Keeping Scotland in the union against its wishes is force though. That’s my point.
    Not if Westminster agrees to another Referendum 25 years after the last one in 2014.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
    I would not argue if it was earlier

    HYUFD's views disturb me
    The choice between the true zealot and the long term sceptic who nevertheless caved and voted for it all, just the same, isn't an easy one.
    I am content with the single market and fighting to defend the union

    I will always reject extreme views
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Sentiment aside, don't you think it would be strategically uncomfortable to have an aggressive superpower sitting across the border at Gretna?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
  • @HYUFD voted Remain in 2016
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
    I would not argue if it was earlier

    HYUFD's views disturb me
    The choice between the true zealot and the long term sceptic who nevertheless caved and voted for it all, just the same, isn't an easy one.
    Is there a difference?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
    You have no facts, its not age its comorbidities, these tend to increase with age in the normal population. In the homeless they get them a lot sooner. You have no clue, no science merely blind assertion of the faithful that worships blue whether it is left or right , good or bad, wrong or right. It is blue so you follow its mantra.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    Indeed as Sunil says I even voted Remain.

    I would far rather debate with a polite leftwinger than some of the so called conservatives on here who resort to personal abuse when you do not fit with their worldview
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    In his saner moments HYUFD is a very astute commentator on both US and UK politics
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    Lot of emotions and dire visions in this thread. Wasn't it just a poll with a dodgy question?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
    Edinburgh to St Petersburg is only 1200 miles so it's closer than you might think.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
    You have no facts, its not age its comorbidities, these tend to increase with age in the normal population. In the homeless they get them a lot sooner. You have no clue, no science merely blind assertion of the faithful that worships blue whether it is left or right , good or bad, wrong or right. It is blue so you follow its mantra.
    It is over 80s and the obese who have the highest death rates from Covid, that is scientific fact, you can push sentiment to make a point but I will stick to scientific fact
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
    Edinburgh to St Petersburg is only 1200 miles so it's closer than you might think.
    So when Shetland falls it is game-on!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,972
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Actually, after the devastating bombing of Rotterdam by the Luftwaffe on 14 May, the Germans threatened to bomb other Dutch cities if the Dutch forces refused to surrender. The General Staff knew it could not stop the bombers and ordered the Dutch Army to cease hostilities.

  • HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    Indeed as Sunil says I even voted Remain.

    I would far rather debate with a polite leftwinger than some of the so called conservatives on here who resort to personal abuse when you do not fit with their worldview
    Most Tories voted Leave in 2016.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Lot of emotions and dire visions in this thread. Wasn't it just a poll with a dodgy question?

    What was the dodgy question?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
    You have no facts, its not age its comorbidities, these tend to increase with age in the normal population. In the homeless they get them a lot sooner. You have no clue, no science merely blind assertion of the faithful that worships blue whether it is left or right , good or bad, wrong or right. It is blue so you follow its mantra.
    It is over 80s and the obese who have the highest death rates from Covid, that is scientific fact, you can push sentiment to make a point but I will stick to scientific fact
    You have the same understanding of science as I have of the cosmology of my little pony. Stop embarrasing yourself. Comorbidites are the cause plenty have pointed it out. Correlation with age is purely because for the normal population comorbities are correlated with age. Correlation is not causation. You are doing the increased ice cream sales means more drowning argument
  • nichomar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Plenty of broth available in the soup kitchens though.
    I remember the broth, I also remember pointing out to him that countries like Brazil and India would suffer badly despite their age profile, we all get things wrong.
    The Indians seem to think opening new temples in Ayodhya is more important in the fight against Covid than opening new hospitals.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Sentiment aside, don't you think it would be strategically uncomfortable to have an aggressive superpower sitting across the border at Gretna?
    I don't think @malcolmg or @Theuniondivvie envisage Scotland as an aggressive superpower, merely a mid sized country taking up independence. The idea that Russia would either invade or be invited in is delusional.

    Not only are Brexiteers keen to reestablish the white Commonwealth, they now seem to want to restart the cold War, and even revisit the suppression of the Jacobites.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,853
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
    You have no facts, its not age its comorbidities, these tend to increase with age in the normal population. In the homeless they get them a lot sooner. You have no clue, no science merely blind assertion of the faithful that worships blue whether it is left or right , good or bad, wrong or right. It is blue so you follow its mantra.
    It is over 80s and the obese who have the highest death rates from Covid, that is scientific fact, you can push sentiment to make a point but I will stick to scientific fact
    You have the same understanding of science as I have of the cosmology of my little pony. Stop embarrasing yourself. Comorbidites are the cause plenty have pointed it out. Correlation with age is purely because for the normal population comorbities are correlated with age. Correlation is not causation. You are doing the increased ice cream sales means more drowning argument
    I don't think that true. In multivariate analysis, correcting for known co-morbidities, age is the highest risk factor.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    Ireland is shielded by the UK both geographically and militarily, and also protected by the might of the USA. So it has that luxury.
  • Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Sentiment aside, don't you think it would be strategically uncomfortable to have an aggressive superpower sitting across the border at Gretna?
    I don't think @malcolmg or @Theuniondivvie envisage Scotland as an aggressive superpower, merely a mid sized country taking up independence. The idea that Russia would either invade or be invited in is delusional.

    Not only are Brexiteers keen to reestablish the white Commonwealth, they now seem to want to restart the cold War, and even revisit the suppression of the Jacobites.
    Tories once supported the Jacobite cause, a wee while back at any rate :lol:
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
    Edinburgh to St Petersburg is only 1200 miles so it's closer than you might think.
    London to Koenigsberg, um, I mean Kaliningrad is nearer?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Must be getting serious

    The Minister of Equality, Irene Montero, urges the autonomous communities to close brothels and hostess, since the infections that occur in these places can lead to a "potential increase in positives that are difficult to trace." Montero asks the regional equality councilors for specific measures for these places, as has been done with bars, restaurants and nightlife venues, to stop the virus when "the pandemic is still a reality" in Spain
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
    You have no facts, its not age its comorbidities, these tend to increase with age in the normal population. In the homeless they get them a lot sooner. You have no clue, no science merely blind assertion of the faithful that worships blue whether it is left or right , good or bad, wrong or right. It is blue so you follow its mantra.
    It is over 80s and the obese who have the highest death rates from Covid, that is scientific fact, you can push sentiment to make a point but I will stick to scientific fact
    You have the same understanding of science as I have of the cosmology of my little pony. Stop embarrasing yourself. Comorbidites are the cause plenty have pointed it out. Correlation with age is purely because for the normal population comorbities are correlated with age. Correlation is not causation. You are doing the increased ice cream sales means more drowning argument
    I don't think that true. In multivariate analysis, correcting for known co-morbidities, age is the highest risk factor.
    Well while I will bow to your expertise on this I still find it hard to believe and 80 year old millionaire with access to the best health care is more likely to die than the 35 year old homeless. Multivariate analysis might highlight age but I am fairly certain it wasnt done between the ultra rich and the homeless. Just the general population
  • Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Sentiment aside, don't you think it would be strategically uncomfortable to have an aggressive superpower sitting across the border at Gretna?
    I don't think @malcolmg or @Theuniondivvie envisage Scotland as an aggressive superpower, merely a mid sized country taking up independence. The idea that Russia would either invade or be invited in is delusional.

    Not only are Brexiteers keen to reestablish the white Commonwealth, they now seem to want to restart the cold War, and even revisit the suppression of the Jacobites.
    It's a retreat to their happy place.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
    The only country that could realistically invade Scotland is England, and to do that we would have to both be insane.

    The reality of modern warfare is that it is either expeditionary as part of a large alliance (such as the Iraq and Afghan wars) or irregular civil wars. Countries simply don't invade each other nowadays, and when they have done over the last century they have invaded adjacent countries.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603
    With the Bannon case quite likely to send him to jail, it isn’t unlikely that after a Biden win former president Trump could find himself in deep trouble.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
    Edinburgh to St Petersburg is only 1200 miles so it's closer than you might think.
    London to Koenigsberg, um, I mean Kaliningrad is nearer?
    London to Kaliningrad is only 780 miles!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985

    There’s no reason why we cannot have a British Isles version of NATO.

    That's a great idea.

    How about we call it the United Kingdom?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
    So the flight time would be longer?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    IanB2 said:

    With the Bannon case quite likely to send him to jail, it isn’t unlikely that after a Biden win former president Trump could find himself in deep trouble.

    I don't think it a good precedent to put deposed leaders in the dock, it discourages others to step down.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687

    There’s no reason why we cannot have a British Isles version of NATO.

    That's a great idea.

    How about we call it the United Kingdom?
    Because that’s a political union and the polls seem to suggest that the Scots don’t want a political union anymore?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616

    There’s no reason why we cannot have a British Isles version of NATO.

    That's a great idea.

    How about we call it the United Kingdom?
    How about we dont waste money. The time of 1st world countries invading each other is long gone now we fight with loans and debt and economic sanctions. It destroys more lives but keeps the body bags to a minimum
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited August 2020
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Sentiment aside, don't you think it would be strategically uncomfortable to have an aggressive superpower sitting across the border at Gretna?
    I don't think @malcolmg or @Theuniondivvie envisage Scotland as an aggressive superpower, merely a mid sized country taking up independence. The idea that Russia would either invade or be invited in is delusional.

    Not only are Brexiteers keen to reestablish the white Commonwealth, they now seem to want to restart the cold War, and even revisit the suppression of the Jacobites.
    I think the superpower in question on the border at Gretna - or at leastd soi-disant one - to worry about is rUK with the sort of mentalities exhibited by HYUFD and his allies on this board.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
    The only country that could realistically invade Scotland is England, and to do that we would have to both be insane.

    The reality of modern warfare is that it is either expeditionary as part of a large alliance (such as the Iraq and Afghan wars) or irregular civil wars. Countries simply don't invade each other nowadays, and when they have done over the last century they have invaded adjacent countries.
    If the Welsh had more pluck, England could soon find itself surrounded by
    potentially hostile powers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.

    Well it was NATO that kept the Soviets out of western Europe and NATO that remains the ultimate defence of western Europe against Putin
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,014

    nichomar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Plenty of broth available in the soup kitchens though.
    I remember the broth, I also remember pointing out to him that countries like Brazil and India would suffer badly despite their age profile, we all get things wrong.
    The Indians seem to think opening new temples in Ayodhya is more important in the fight against Covid than opening new hospitals.
    The English seem to think visiting the pub is more important in the fight against Covid than visiting members of your family.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.

    Well it was NATO that kept the Soviets out of western Europe and NATO that remains the ultimate defence of western Europe against Putin
    So?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    It's one of the unresolved contradictions of the EU that some but not all its members are in NATO, and thus liable to find themselves facing different ways when the chips are down.

    And people will say (as above) 'it's a complete technical irrelevance' until the moment it isn't.

  • YokesYokes Posts: 990
    edited August 2020
    Trump: Don't know how many times I've said it, the bad news just keeps coming . Anything and anyone in this guys orbit goes to shit. More bad news is on its way.

    He loses in November he is going to end up in jail.

    Belarus

    Last weekend I posed the question was Lukashenko playing for time. Clearly he was and the story is changing there. If the locals want to get rid, its going to take a full on general strike to cripple the country or its going to take violence to move him out.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    It's one of the unresolved contradictions of the EU that some but not all its members are in NATO, and thus liable to find themselves facing different ways when the chips are down.

    And people will say (as above) 'it's a complete technical irrelevance' until the moment it isn't.
    The EU does have a mutual defence clause though.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
    You have no facts, its not age its comorbidities, these tend to increase with age in the normal population. In the homeless they get them a lot sooner. You have no clue, no science merely blind assertion of the faithful that worships blue whether it is left or right , good or bad, wrong or right. It is blue so you follow its mantra.
    It is over 80s and the obese who have the highest death rates from Covid, that is scientific fact, you can push sentiment to make a point but I will stick to scientific fact
    You have the same understanding of science as I have of the cosmology of my little pony. Stop embarrasing yourself. Comorbidites are the cause plenty have pointed it out. Correlation with age is purely because for the normal population comorbities are correlated with age. Correlation is not causation. You are doing the increased ice cream sales means more drowning argument
    I don't think that true. In multivariate analysis, correcting for known co-morbidities, age is the highest risk factor.
    Well while I will bow to your expertise on this I still find it hard to believe and 80 year old millionaire with access to the best health care is more likely to die than the 35 year old homeless. Multivariate analysis might highlight age but I am fairly certain it wasnt done between the ultra rich and the homeless. Just the general population
    Time spent is not a disease - there's no time fairy. It's miles on the clock, wear and tear. Whether or not a person has developed diabetes or hypertension, wear and tear means they're likely (but not necessarily) shorter on the biochemical resources they need to fight Covid.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    Yokes said:

    Belarus

    Last weekend I posed the question was Lukashenko playing for time. Clearly he was and the story is changing there. If the locals want to get rid, its going to take a full on general strike to cripple the country or its going to take violence to move him out.

    So far Russia doesn't seem to have a plan, which must increase the risk of an escalation.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,678
    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council
    No. When the USSR lost a significantly greater amount of its population the successor state, Russia, stayed on the Security Council. If SIndy happens rUK will remain on the Security Council.
  • nichomar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Plenty of broth available in the soup kitchens though.
    I remember the broth, I also remember pointing out to him that countries like Brazil and India would suffer badly despite their age profile, we all get things wrong.
    The Indians seem to think opening new temples in Ayodhya is more important in the fight against Covid than opening new hospitals.
    The English seem to think visiting the pub is more important in the fight against Covid than visiting members of your family.
    Covid's slightly more prevalent in India than in England at the current time!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603
    In the modern virus-ridden world, who would seriously want to be outside rather than within the EU?
  • algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    It's one of the unresolved contradictions of the EU that some but not all its members are in NATO, and thus liable to find themselves facing different ways when the chips are down.

    And people will say (as above) 'it's a complete technical irrelevance' until the moment it isn't.

    The only non-NATO members of the EU are Ireland, Austria, Finland and Sweden.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    IanB2 said:

    With the Bannon case quite likely to send him to jail, it isn’t unlikely that after a Biden win former president Trump could find himself in deep trouble.

    Isn't that why electoral fraud on an industrial scale is highly likely?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
    Edinburgh to St Petersburg is only 1200 miles so it's closer than you might think.
    1200 miles is in the thousands of miles as I said.

    Whereas the German town of Herzogenrath is conjoined with the Dutch town of Kerkrade.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    IanB2 said:

    In the modern virus-ridden world, who would seriously want to be outside rather than within the EU?

    Me obviously, but I'm not really even sure what argument you think you think coronavirus is making for the EU here? Honestly, I'm drawing a complete blank.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
    The only country that could realistically invade Scotland is England, and to do that we would have to both be insane.

    The reality of modern warfare is that it is either expeditionary as part of a large alliance (such as the Iraq and Afghan wars) or irregular civil wars. Countries simply don't invade each other nowadays, and when they have done over the last century they have invaded adjacent countries.
    If the Welsh had more pluck, England could soon find itself surrounded by
    potentially hostile powers.
    On my daily travels along the Western side of the M4, we seem to be very subservient to our English master. We remain loyal to Perfidious Albion.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.

    Well it was NATO that kept the Soviets out of western Europe and NATO that remains the ultimate defence of western Europe against Putin
    So?
    Can you ever write an intelligent response rather than just saying so?

    As the USSR had a far stronger military than any individual western Europeannation but collectively through NATO they were able to contain it
  • Yokes said:

    Trump: Don't know how many times I've said it, the bad news just keeps coming . Anything and anyone in this guys orbit goes to shit. More bad news is on its way.

    He loses in November he is going to end up in jail.

    Belarus

    Last weekend I posed the question was Lukashenko playing for time. Clearly he was and the story is changing there. If the locals want to get rid, its going to take a full on general strike to cripple the country or its going to take violence to move him out.

    Seen and read plenty about Minsk and the situation in Belarus but what is the story in the wider nation ? The uprising, what there is of it, seems to be focussed in Minsk.

    I can’t see Lukashenko going and I can’t see a violent uprising removing him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council
    No. When the USSR lost a significantly greater amount of its population the successor state, Russia, stayed on the Security Council. If SIndy happens rUK will remain on the Security Council.
    You would hope but that is not guaranteed especially if India and Japan and the EU push their case, if the UK stays together at most the Security Council would expand, if the UK broke up some nations may put their case to take its place
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985
    Pagan2 said:

    There’s no reason why we cannot have a British Isles version of NATO.

    That's a great idea.

    How about we call it the United Kingdom?
    How about we dont waste money. The time of 1st world countries invading each other is long gone now we fight with loans and debt and economic sanctions. It destroys more lives but keeps the body bags to a minimum
    So Russia didn't invade Eastern Ukraine and Crimea a few years ago then?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
    The only country that could realistically invade Scotland is England, and to do that we would have to both be insane.

    The reality of modern warfare is that it is either expeditionary as part of a large alliance (such as the Iraq and Afghan wars) or irregular civil wars. Countries simply don't invade each other nowadays, and when they have done over the last century they have invaded adjacent countries.
    It could be an easy way to fulfil Johnson's dream to become a Churchillian war leader.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
    The only country that could realistically invade Scotland is England, and to do that we would have to both be insane.

    The reality of modern warfare is that it is either expeditionary as part of a large alliance (such as the Iraq and Afghan wars) or irregular civil wars. Countries simply don't invade each other nowadays, and when they have done over the last century they have invaded adjacent countries.
    If the Welsh had more pluck, England could soon find itself surrounded by
    potentially hostile powers.
    England alone is stronger than Scotland, Wales and Ireland combined
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.

    Well it was NATO that kept the Soviets out of western Europe and NATO that remains the ultimate defence of western Europe against Putin
    So?
    Can you ever write an intelligent response rather than just saying so?

    As the USSR had a far stronger military than any individual western Europeannation but collectively through NATO they were able to contain it
    You keep making completely irrelevant points. The history of NATO has nothing to do with your apparent belief that no military alliance can exist that isn't NATO.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    It's one of the unresolved contradictions of the EU that some but not all its members are in NATO, and thus liable to find themselves facing different ways when the chips are down.

    And people will say (as above) 'it's a complete technical irrelevance' until the moment it isn't.

    The only non-NATO members of the EU are Ireland, Austria, Finland and Sweden.
    Sweden and Finland were neutrals during the Cold War with their militaries hardly interoperable at at all with allied forces. Now they are active EU members and close NATO partners with almost full interoperability.

    They haven't formally joined purely to avoid antagonizing Russia.
  • IanB2 said:

    In the modern virus-ridden world, who would seriously want to be outside rather than within the EU?

    Only people who hate the UK and or Putin apologists.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.

    Well it was NATO that kept the Soviets out of western Europe and NATO that remains the ultimate defence of western Europe against Putin
    So?
    Can you ever write an intelligent response rather than just saying so?

    As the USSR had a far stronger military than any individual western Europeannation but collectively through NATO they were able to contain it
    You keep making completely irrelevant points. The history of NATO has nothing to do with your apparent belief that no military alliance can exist that isn't NATO.
    NATO was the military alliance that saved western Europe, it was just the name for it
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616

    Pagan2 said:

    There’s no reason why we cannot have a British Isles version of NATO.

    That's a great idea.

    How about we call it the United Kingdom?
    How about we dont waste money. The time of 1st world countries invading each other is long gone now we fight with loans and debt and economic sanctions. It destroys more lives but keeps the body bags to a minimum
    So Russia didn't invade Eastern Ukraine and Crimea a few years ago then?
    I didn't claim it didn't if you remember I cited both when you were telling me how tough the eu and nato would be and said where is the evidence. Ukraine and crimea however are second world countries not first world
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,678
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council
    No. When the USSR lost a significantly greater amount of its population the successor state, Russia, stayed on the Security Council. If SIndy happens rUK will remain on the Security Council.
    You would hope but that is not guaranteed especially if India and Japan and the EU push their case, if the UK stays together at most the Security Council would expand, if the UK broke up some nations may put their case to take its place
    Just as well we have a veto then.....
  • YokesYokes Posts: 990

    Yokes said:

    Belarus

    Last weekend I posed the question was Lukashenko playing for time. Clearly he was and the story is changing there. If the locals want to get rid, its going to take a full on general strike to cripple the country or its going to take violence to move him out.

    So far Russia doesn't seem to have a plan, which must increase the risk of an escalation.
    Moscow has a few plans, and all switchable depending on where they are:
    1. Talk to all players & secure interest but show no overt presence
    2. Back President Big Hat via advice and assistance but again no overt presence
    3. Intervene, overtly

    Whats hard to know is whether they have executed options 1 or 2 or still working it out.

    The suspected poisoning of Navalny, if that's what it was, is a way of trying to put the skids under any thoughts some Russians may have of having their own Belarus moment.

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
    Russia is thousands of miles from Scotland, whereas the Netherlands borders Germany. 🙄
    Edinburgh to St Petersburg is only 1200 miles so it's closer than you might think.
    1200 miles is in the thousands of miles as I said.

    Whereas the German town of Herzogenrath is conjoined with the Dutch town of Kerkrade.
    London to Kaliningrad is only 780 miles!
  • NEW THREAD

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
    The only country that could realistically invade Scotland is England, and to do that we would have to both be insane.

    The reality of modern warfare is that it is either expeditionary as part of a large alliance (such as the Iraq and Afghan wars) or irregular civil wars. Countries simply don't invade each other nowadays, and when they have done over the last century they have invaded adjacent countries.
    If the Welsh had more pluck, England could soon find itself surrounded by
    potentially hostile powers.
    On my daily travels along the Western side of the M4, we seem to be very subservient to our English master. We remain loyal to Perfidious Albion.

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
    Of course they would. The only obstacle to that is people like you trying to cause division and bitterness - trying to suggest that they wouldn’t “deserve” our help.

    NATO is a complete technical irrelevance, nobody gives a sh*t. Ireland is not a full NATO member.
    All NATO members are guaranteed by its membership terms to defend each other from invasion, if you are not in NATO you do not guarantee your national security in the same way
    Noone has any reason to invade Ireland though. The only nation ever to really conquer any part of it are Denmark and England, and Denmark was a while back.
    Compare it to the number of invasions that have been attempted on say Poland and it's quite a contrast.
    The only country that could realistically invade Scotland is England, and to do that we would have to both be insane.

    The reality of modern warfare is that it is either expeditionary as part of a large alliance (such as the Iraq and Afghan wars) or irregular civil wars. Countries simply don't invade each other nowadays, and when they have done over the last century they have invaded adjacent countries.
    If the Welsh had more pluck, England could soon find itself surrounded by
    potentially hostile powers.
    On my daily travels along the Western side of the M4, we seem to be very subservient to our English master. We remain loyal to Perfidious Albion.
    Just trying to lull us into a false sense of security. We need to refortify Offas Dyke....
  • YokesYokes Posts: 990
    Just as a note. During the called Cold War, the expectation in both Moscow and the West was that Sweden would end its neutrality and side firmly with NATO in a conflict.

    Co-operation between Sweden & NATO during the Cold War was more extensive than the neutrality idea would indicate.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.

    Well it was NATO that kept the Soviets out of western Europe and NATO that remains the ultimate defence of western Europe against Putin
    So?
    Can you ever write an intelligent response rather than just saying so?

    As the USSR had a far stronger military than any individual western Europeannation but collectively through NATO they were able to contain it
    You keep making completely irrelevant points. The history of NATO has nothing to do with your apparent belief that no military alliance can exist that isn't NATO.
    NATO was the military alliance that saved western Europe, it was just the name for it
    I must have missed the Soviet-NATO war. How many casualties were there? How far did the Soviet tanks get before we repulsed them?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Ignoring yet more political ructions and proceeding to good news (and I dare say this has been discussed already, but like I said it's good news so I make no apology for being repetitious,) the number of new Covid cases detected by test in the UK appears to have levelled off, and the number of patients left in hospital continues to decline.

    The hospital numbers are down by another 9% in a week, at which rate the total should be down below 800 by next Thursday. The indications from the England-only data, which are more up-to-date than the whole of UK figures, suggest that this outcome is highly probable.

    With much of continental Europe in panic flap mode, we must continue to try to understand what's going right here, because it's probably some combination of factors and it most likely has nothing to do with the actions of our blundering Government (or, at any rate, if it does then the positive effect will have been arrived at by chance.)

    I'm not picking up through the media any distress signals emanating from Scandinavia, either. Did these countries open the nightclubs, and do they have lots of people working from home?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    HYUFD doesn’t strike me as particularly right wing, he has some unique views , he most definitely is a Tory which I would chose to neither agree or disagree with as internal Tory, or labour politics does not interest me. At worst he lightens up some of the debates on here And you can chose to either laugh with him or at him. I think disgust is going a tad far.
    You may have missed him arguing the homeless werent affected by covid because they were young even though I was pointing out the life expectancy for the homeless was 44. His argument was they are in there 30's so at less risk than an 80 year old millionaire. Repugnant is not a term I used lightly
    Factual your highest risk of death from Covid is by being over 80 or obese, being homeless may make you at increased risk of death from drugs and alcohol etc but it does not in itself make you more at risk of death from Covid than someone over 80
    You have no facts, its not age its comorbidities, these tend to increase with age in the normal population. In the homeless they get them a lot sooner. You have no clue, no science merely blind assertion of the faithful that worships blue whether it is left or right , good or bad, wrong or right. It is blue so you follow its mantra.
    It is over 80s and the obese who have the highest death rates from Covid, that is scientific fact, you can push sentiment to make a point but I will stick to scientific fact
    You have the same understanding of science as I have of the cosmology of my little pony. Stop embarrasing yourself. Comorbidites are the cause plenty have pointed it out. Correlation with age is purely because for the normal population comorbities are correlated with age. Correlation is not causation. You are doing the increased ice cream sales means more drowning argument
    I don't think that true. In multivariate analysis, correcting for known co-morbidities, age is the highest risk factor.
    Well while I will bow to your expertise on this I still find it hard to believe and 80 year old millionaire with access to the best health care is more likely to die than the 35 year old homeless. Multivariate analysis might highlight age but I am fairly certain it wasnt done between the ultra rich and the homeless. Just the general population
    The ultra rich don't have "access to the best health care," they have access to the NHS like everyone else and use it by preference when they are seriously ill (rather than want a new knee without having to wait) because it knocks the socks off the private sector. They certainly use it when the entire private sector has shut down and rented all its beds to the NHS because there's a pandemic on. And money's great, but youth trumps it as far as surviving almost all forms of disease is concerned.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD seems to think that the only alliance in the world is NATO. Bizarre.

    Well it was NATO that kept the Soviets out of western Europe and NATO that remains the ultimate defence of western Europe against Putin
    So?
    Can you ever write an intelligent response rather than just saying so?

    As the USSR had a far stronger military than any individual western Europeannation but collectively through NATO they were able to contain it
    You keep making completely irrelevant points. The history of NATO has nothing to do with your apparent belief that no military alliance can exist that isn't NATO.
    NATO was the military alliance that saved western Europe, it was just the name for it
    I must have missed the Soviet-NATO war. How many casualties were there? How far did the Soviet tanks get before we repulsed them?
    They did not try precisely because NATO forces and tanks, including from the US, were based in western Europe
This discussion has been closed.