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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Scötterdämmerung. The Twilight of the Union?

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Comments

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,341

    Your boyfriend does dumped you Steve. Good luck...

    https://twitter.com/TocRadio/status/1296468135328047104

    He appears to have forgotten that his son publicly praised and endorsed this scheme. Oops!
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan spends his whole life on here being rude and objectionable to everyone, so it's about time somebody puts him down a peg.

    Well I have been on for several hours and I have insulted how many? Oh I think that would be 0. By objectionable you mean I voiced something you don't agree with I assume?
    Me for a start. You've insulted others and been rude as per always.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    He wont because he’ll focus group it like he’s focus grouping everything.

    Besides some parts of England DO want to be regionalised - Yorkshire for one.
    I've never met anyone who wants a Yorkshire regional parliament.
    Who’s talking about Yorkshire having a regional parliament?
    You are.

    Besides some parts of England DO want to be regionalised - Yorkshire for one.

    Or perhaps your legal training has progressed to the point where you can write something which means the exact opposite of what it seems to be.
    I never said anything about a Parliament though.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    I've got nothing more to say but it's sad you only call out so-called childishness on one side
    it applies to both sides and maybe time to share a truce
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    Pagan2 said:

    The only way to save the union now is for England to relinquish power over Scotland. If we want to save the union, which I do, then an English majority must not ever again be able to overrule the wishes of the Scottish electorate. Complete autonomy.

    Are unionists ready to pay that price? Or is it actually about power and control rather than a union of likeminded and common nations?

    Is not the more important question why do we spend so much time arguing about it in our parliaments when frankly 70% of the country probably don't even think its an issue either way. I suspect that if you counted the actually give a damn pro union people in the country you would find they number less than pro av people

    The only people I have ever met that give a damn about the union either for or against are on here and scots, welsh and cornish. I have yet to hear anyone that is english in real everyday life treat scottish independence with more than a shrug of whatever we don't mind either way.
    The only thing I'm surprised to discover is that the Cornish give a damn about the union.
    Cornwall is a county not a country
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    I've got nothing more to say but it's sad you only call out so-called childishness on one side
    it applies to both sides and maybe time to share a truce
    I tried to, I apologised to him and you and everyone else and he just threw it straight back in my face.
  • I will apologise for my bad language and won't say anymore on the topic for now, apologies to you all for interrupting your conversations.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    I've got nothing more to say but it's sad you only call out so-called childishness on one side
    it applies to both sides and maybe time to share a truce
    I tried to, I apologised to him and you and everyone else and he just threw it straight back in my face.
    As I have said both of you need to agree a permanent truce
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    Sorry G not my doing though, just have a stalker
    You've worked hard to get a rise from CHB. You have succeeded and he will probably get a ban.

    Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    I've got nothing more to say but it's sad you only call out so-called childishness on one side
    it applies to both sides and maybe time to share a truce
    Care to share what I did today before CHB started in on me? Even then I responded without swearing
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    regiments?

    Not since the MoD closed all but one down.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020

    Its a remarkable coincidence that there were simultaneously an 'abler cohort' taking A levels this year and an 'abler cohort' taking GCSEs this year.

    But what is strange is that the 'abler cohort' who took A levels this year showed no sign of being an 'abler cohort' two years ago when they took their GCSEs.

    Not at all Richard. The aim of grades is to judge the individual not the cohort.
    In which case the pupils with honest teachers have lost out.

    Hopefully someone will compare the 2018 GCSE results by school to the 2020 A levels results.
    Not at all.

    If a teacher is being honest - and if they lack 100% foresight of Mystic Meg - then should an honest teacher give benefit of doubt to the pupil or not?

    If a teacher thinks that a student could get one of two different grades should they roll a dice or toss a coin to determine which they'd get? Or should the pupil get the benefit of the doubt?
    Benefit of the doubt is just a term to excuse doing what you want.

    We will hopefully be able to compare how much 'benefit of the doubt' was given from one school to another.

    Still at least the 'abler cohort' line is no longer being mentioned.
    No its not a term to excuse its entirely meaningful. There's a reason the judicial system uses it, there's a reason why sports laws use it - and it should apply here too.

    If you had a child this year whom their teacher thought could have got an A, or could have got a B and the teacher didn't know which it would be - should the teacher have given the benefit of the doubt and award the A? Or toss a coin?

    That's different from giving an A to students whom the teacher knew would get a B or lower. But there will always be edge cases and what should happen to them - give them the benefit of the doubt, or roll a dice to decide?
  • If a ban is deserved for my behaviour then I'll have to live with it, hope you'll all accept my apology regardless.
  • HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    So British empire posturing and a bit of trade.

    You're going to have to come up with better than that.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,341

    Is Cumbria still a COVID hot spot, or has that abated?
    Not any longer. I was in Barrow Hospital last week and it has no Covid-19 patients.

    Fingers crossed this happy state continues.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    The only way to save the union now is for England to relinquish power over Scotland. If we want to save the union, which I do, then an English majority must not ever again be able to overrule the wishes of the Scottish electorate. Complete autonomy.

    Are unionists ready to pay that price? Or is it actually about power and control rather than a union of likeminded and common nations?

    On the latest poll from Yougov Scotland will have power over England.

    Starmer will become PM thanks to 58 SNP MPs, along with PC, LDs and the SDLP and Greens propping him up despite the fact the Tories would still win a comfortable majority in England
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    Sorry G not my doing though, just have a stalker
    You've worked hard to get a rise from CHB. You have succeeded and he will probably get a ban.

    Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
    And since that day I have on several occasions made perfectly reasonable replies to comments he has made. I have not gone after him and he has persisted in going after me rather than engaging with what I said. I did not carry on the vendetta
  • I will apologise for my bad language and won't say anymore on the topic for now, apologies to you all for interrupting your conversations.

    Good for you for apologising.
  • If a ban is deserved for my behaviour then I'll have to live with it, hope you'll all accept my apology regardless.

    I really hope neither of you are banned
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,973

    I will apologise for my bad language and won't say anymore on the topic for now, apologies to you all for interrupting your conversations.

    Best to just step back and let it go.
  • I will freely acknowledge I've got issues with lashing out sometimes and I am trying my best not to, sure it's not nice for you all to hear, so sorry again
  • Going off for a bit to cool down
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    HYUFD said:

    The only way to save the union now is for England to relinquish power over Scotland. If we want to save the union, which I do, then an English majority must not ever again be able to overrule the wishes of the Scottish electorate. Complete autonomy.

    Are unionists ready to pay that price? Or is it actually about power and control rather than a union of likeminded and common nations?

    On the latest poll from Yougov Scotland will have power over England.

    Starmer will become PM thanks to 58 SNP MPs, along with PC, LDs and the SDLP and Greens propping him up despite the fact the Tories would still win a comfortable majority in England
    So?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    edited August 2020
    algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    HYUFD said:

    you would expect Yes to be on over 60%

    https://twitter.com/Doctor_Wurm/status/1295919718520545280?s=20
  • Going off for a bit to cool down

    Please come back soon
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,973
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    regiments?

    Not since the MoD closed all but one down.
    The brass neck to say we benefit from Barnett, we get a poxy share of OUR money back and they go on a spending spree with the rest. What a tool.
  • If a ban is deserved for my behaviour then I'll have to live with it, hope you'll all accept my apology regardless.

    Stop wittering one way or another and take a little time away from PB.

    The weather is nice so go for a walk and then have something nice to eat.

    Do something positive and constructive and you will feel happier with the world.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2020

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    So British empire posturing and a bit of trade.

    You're going to have to come up with better than that.
    60% of Scottish exports go to England, if we go to WTO terms Brexit by January, the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes win next September we will have tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders by Christmas 2021
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    Sorry G not my doing though, just have a stalker
    You've worked hard to get a rise from CHB. You have succeeded and he will probably get a ban.

    Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
    And since that day I have on several occasions made perfectly reasonable replies to comments he has made. I have not gone after him and he has persisted in going after me rather than engaging with what I said. I did not carry on the vendetta
    You are one of PBs contrarians. Trolling individuals is a bit like bullying at school. People who indulge are best avoided, I find, in life and on the internet.

    CHB has a forthright opinion, but manages to argue quite sensibly with people of a diametrically opposing view. You like to get a bite, fair enough, if that's what you like to do.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,341
    It probably reflects badly on me. But I really cannot get bothered by Scottish independence. It would, I suppose, be a shame because more constitutional and economic upheaval is the last thing anyone needs. But if that is what Scotland wants we should try and come to an amicable resolution and a new friendly relationship for the future. Probably a hopelessly naive view.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,014

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    He wont because he’ll focus group it like he’s focus grouping everything.

    Besides some parts of England DO want to be regionalised - Yorkshire for one.
    I've never met anyone who wants a Yorkshire regional parliament.
    You're not wrong. The buggers want a National Parliament!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    If a ban is deserved for my behaviour then I'll have to live with it, hope you'll all accept my apology regardless.

    Stop wittering one way or another and take a little time away from PB.

    The weather is nice so go for a walk and then have something nice to eat.

    Do something positive and constructive and you will feel happier with the world.
    Good advice from Richard, CHB.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,973

    If a ban is deserved for my behaviour then I'll have to live with it, hope you'll all accept my apology regardless.

    Stop wittering one way or another and take a little time away from PB.

    The weather is nice so go for a walk and then have something nice to eat.

    Do something positive and constructive and you will feel happier with the world.
    Lucky you, pissing down here
  • algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    Going off for a bit to cool down

    Good idea, enjoy the rest!
  • Cyclefree said:

    It probably reflects badly on me. But I really cannot get bothered by Scottish independence. It would, I suppose, be a shame because more constitutional and economic upheaval is the last thing anyone needs. But if that is what Scotland wants we should try and come to an amicable resolution and a new friendly relationship for the future. Probably a hopelessly naive view.

    Its an entirely reasonable view.

    Its also a view the Europeans took with Brexit. They didn't freak out, nobody resigned for having "lost" Britain. They respected a decision was made and moved on.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,973
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    So British empire posturing and a bit of trade.

    You're going to have to come up with better than that.
    60% of Scottish exports go to England, if we go to WTO terms Brexit by January, the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes win next September we will have tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders by Christmas 2021
    So you will have to import them from elsewhere and pay bigger tariffs you halfwit.
  • Its a remarkable coincidence that there were simultaneously an 'abler cohort' taking A levels this year and an 'abler cohort' taking GCSEs this year.

    But what is strange is that the 'abler cohort' who took A levels this year showed no sign of being an 'abler cohort' two years ago when they took their GCSEs.

    Not at all Richard. The aim of grades is to judge the individual not the cohort.
    In which case the pupils with honest teachers have lost out.

    Hopefully someone will compare the 2018 GCSE results by school to the 2020 A levels results.
    Not at all.

    If a teacher is being honest - and if they lack 100% foresight of Mystic Meg - then should an honest teacher give benefit of doubt to the pupil or not?

    If a teacher thinks that a student could get one of two different grades should they roll a dice or toss a coin to determine which they'd get? Or should the pupil get the benefit of the doubt?
    Benefit of the doubt is just a term to excuse doing what you want.

    We will hopefully be able to compare how much 'benefit of the doubt' was given from one school to another.

    Still at least the 'abler cohort' line is no longer being mentioned.
    No its not a term to excuse its entirely meaningful. There's a reason the judicial system uses it, there's a reason why sports laws use it - and it should apply here too.

    If you had a child this year whom their teacher thought could have got an A, or could have got a B and the teacher didn't know which it would be - should the teacher have given the benefit of the doubt and award the A? Or toss a coin?

    That's different from giving an A to students whom the teacher knew would get a B or lower. But there will always be edge cases and what should happen to them - give them the benefit of the doubt, or roll a dice to decide?
    The edges tend to get ever wider when you give people free rein to decide on benefit of the doubt.

    Which is why I'd like to see a comparison between schools on how their grades have changed.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    We'll have to see won't we.

    You going to apologise yet?
    Nothing to apologise for, you called me a racist I insulted you back. Can't take it don't dish it out
    Alright you cum stained oik!
    gosh a plagiarist too, you could come up with an original insult I believe you are infringing my copyright on that one.
    Alright, you cunt!
    If you can I would quickly edit that.
    It is all so childish
    Sorry G not my doing though, just have a stalker
    You've worked hard to get a rise from CHB. You have succeeded and he will probably get a ban.

    Whatever floats your boat I suppose.
    And since that day I have on several occasions made perfectly reasonable replies to comments he has made. I have not gone after him and he has persisted in going after me rather than engaging with what I said. I did not carry on the vendetta
    You are one of PBs contrarians. Trolling individuals is a bit like bullying at school. People who indulge are best avoided, I find, in life and on the internet.

    CHB has a forthright opinion, but manages to argue quite sensibly with people of a diametrically opposing view. You like to get a bite, fair enough, if that's what you like to do.
    I am not a contrarian I argue what I believe is correct from my viewpoint. I do not take positions because I support labour or I support Tory. I have certainly at times gone against people from all sides. I have also agreed with people from all sides on issues and posted things that support them.

    I did not set out to needle CHB judge for yourself this was my first post responding to him tonight
    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    Not I think an unreasonable response nor a goading one
  • I may be flogging a dead horse (battery?) but as I said the other night, these partisan articles that have become commonplace in the last few years are doing this site no good.

    You can see that from the comments produced below the line. Also precious little to do with betting. Just very frustrating and tedious to read.

    TSE may think throwing in some reference to some obscure historical figure gives the article gravitas. It doesn’t.
  • algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    How much more autonomy could they have ?
  • algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    How much more autonomy could they have ?
    More tax raising powers
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,973

    algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    How much more autonomy could they have ?
    Up to your usual high standard of ignorance , congratulations.
  • malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    So British empire posturing and a bit of trade.

    You're going to have to come up with better than that.
    60% of Scottish exports go to England, if we go to WTO terms Brexit by January, the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes win next September we will have tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders by Christmas 2021
    So you will have to import them from elsewhere and pay bigger tariffs you halfwit.
    Its a farcical idea anyway that if Scotland has a referendum by September that there'd be customs posts up by Christmas of the same year anyway. As if there wouldn't be negotiations and a transition period let alone any agreements?

    The UK voted to leave the EU in 2016 and there's still no customs posts up. In the extremely unlikely idea that there'd be customs posts up on the English/Scottish border they'd simply not be up before 2025 or so at the earliest.

    Foreseeable timetable for me.
    May 2021: Holyrood election - negotiations begin.
    2022: IndyRef2
    2022-2024 two year negotiation period.
    2025 Scotland becomes independent. Probably with some sort of transition agreement.

    Maybe that timeline could be expedited a bit to get Scottish independence at around the May 2024 time that the UK has its election so Scotland isn't electing MPs - but it can't be done much faster than that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,973
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You cannot be as daft as you make out you are, it must be in jest.
  • HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
  • malcolmg said:

    algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    How much more autonomy could they have ?
    Up to your usual high standard of ignorance , congratulations.
    Kinder politics nationalist style.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
  • Its a remarkable coincidence that there were simultaneously an 'abler cohort' taking A levels this year and an 'abler cohort' taking GCSEs this year.

    But what is strange is that the 'abler cohort' who took A levels this year showed no sign of being an 'abler cohort' two years ago when they took their GCSEs.

    Not at all Richard. The aim of grades is to judge the individual not the cohort.
    In which case the pupils with honest teachers have lost out.

    Hopefully someone will compare the 2018 GCSE results by school to the 2020 A levels results.
    Not at all.

    If a teacher is being honest - and if they lack 100% foresight of Mystic Meg - then should an honest teacher give benefit of doubt to the pupil or not?

    If a teacher thinks that a student could get one of two different grades should they roll a dice or toss a coin to determine which they'd get? Or should the pupil get the benefit of the doubt?
    Benefit of the doubt is just a term to excuse doing what you want.

    We will hopefully be able to compare how much 'benefit of the doubt' was given from one school to another.

    Still at least the 'abler cohort' line is no longer being mentioned.
    No its not a term to excuse its entirely meaningful. There's a reason the judicial system uses it, there's a reason why sports laws use it - and it should apply here too.

    If you had a child this year whom their teacher thought could have got an A, or could have got a B and the teacher didn't know which it would be - should the teacher have given the benefit of the doubt and award the A? Or toss a coin?

    That's different from giving an A to students whom the teacher knew would get a B or lower. But there will always be edge cases and what should happen to them - give them the benefit of the doubt, or roll a dice to decide?
    The edges tend to get ever wider when you give people free rein to decide on benefit of the doubt.

    Which is why I'd like to see a comparison between schools on how their grades have changed.
    A more meaningful comparison is between individuals. How many pupils who got a C-equivalent in GCSE maths were rewarded an A at A-level? How many pupils were within one grade of what should have otherwise been expected?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687

    algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    Keeping Scotland in the union against its wishes is force though. That’s my point.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Have you just dreamed that?
  • algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    How much more autonomy could they have ?
    More tax raising powers
    So remove the halfway house at the moment and give them full autonomy on raising revenue ? Would you go that far ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732

    Pagan2 said:

    Starmer needs to go hard on federalism, including English

    He won't find it helps because while the english don't really care about the union they do care about being regionalised and Starmer wont go for an english parliament he will push for the old regions model where nothing gets devolved
    He wont because he’ll focus group it like he’s focus grouping everything.

    Besides some parts of England DO want to be regionalised - Yorkshire for one.
    I've never met anyone who wants a Yorkshire regional parliament.
    Who’s talking about Yorkshire having a regional parliament?
    I think the only tenable English devolution is to give a lot more powers to mayors and county councils. We have no other tradition of regionalism and everything else is artificial.

    My own replacement would be to replace the Lords with a chamber of County representatives, not directly elected, but appointed by councils from county councillors, perhaps 1 per 200 000 population. As well as ensuring all areas represented, it may well improve the standard of people running local government.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985
    Pagan2 said:

    The only way to save the union now is for England to relinquish power over Scotland. If we want to save the union, which I do, then an English majority must not ever again be able to overrule the wishes of the Scottish electorate. Complete autonomy.

    Are unionists ready to pay that price? Or is it actually about power and control rather than a union of likeminded and common nations?

    Is not the more important question why do we spend so much time arguing about it in our parliaments when frankly 70% of the country probably don't even think its an issue either way. I suspect that if you counted the actually give a damn pro union people in the country you would find they number less than pro av people

    The only people I have ever met that give a damn about the union either for or against are on here and scots, welsh and cornish. I have yet to hear anyone that is english in real everyday life treat scottish independence with more than a shrug of whatever we don't mind either way.
    Cornish nationalism is the one kind that's died down recently.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    I just can't stop laughing BigG. Genuinely!
  • Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    HYUFD's ignorance is breathtaking
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985

    People like @Casino_Royale seem to think that the opinion of English “remoaners” on whether Scotland should be independent or not matters, for some reason.

    English "remoaners" do too..

    https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1296145970837819393?s=20
  • HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Well said.
  • HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    I just can't stop laughing BigG. Genuinely!
    Trouble is, he is serious and is a chairman of a conservative constituency association
  • algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    How much more autonomy could they have ?
    More tax raising powers
    So remove the halfway house at the moment and give them full autonomy on raising revenue ? Would you go that far ?
    Yes and compete with RUK if they want to
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    The comedy value of your scenario is superb. I genuinely hope you wrote it to generate a laugh. If you did- respect!

    The Len Deighton of Epping Forest!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is in NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,973

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    So British empire posturing and a bit of trade.

    You're going to have to come up with better than that.
    60% of Scottish exports go to England, if we go to WTO terms Brexit by January, the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes win next September we will have tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders by Christmas 2021
    So you will have to import them from elsewhere and pay bigger tariffs you halfwit.
    Its a farcical idea anyway that if Scotland has a referendum by September that there'd be customs posts up by Christmas of the same year anyway. As if there wouldn't be negotiations and a transition period let alone any agreements?

    The UK voted to leave the EU in 2016 and there's still no customs posts up. In the extremely unlikely idea that there'd be customs posts up on the English/Scottish border they'd simply not be up before 2025 or so at the earliest.

    Foreseeable timetable for me.
    May 2021: Holyrood election - negotiations begin.
    2022: IndyRef2
    2022-2024 two year negotiation period.
    2025 Scotland becomes independent. Probably with some sort of transition agreement.

    Maybe that timeline could be expedited a bit to get Scottish independence at around the May 2024 time that the UK has its election so Scotland isn't electing MPs - but it can't be done much faster than that.
    agree
  • HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Have you just dreamed that?
    Why would Comrade Putin be bothered ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
  • HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Have you just dreamed that?
    Why would Comrade Putin be bothered ?
    A pact with Eck?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985
    edited August 2020
    algarkirk said:

    A max of 51% 'yes' is not exactly a wipeout. And we haven't yet had the debate on: debt, deficit, NATO, monarchy, Catalonia, entering the EU, Schengen, currency, ECB, hard borders at Gretna, exports to England, FoM, subsidy, oil, fish, and a few other things.

    Also worth noting that the constituencies at the border on both the England and Scotland side are a sea of blue with no exceptions.

    I hope Boris will stand firm against a second referendum.

    It's not over yet, but a second referendum is coming.

    There are still solutions to save the Union, although they will of course get mocked or shouted down vociferously by nationalist posters on here.

    If Scotland can be happy members of a European Union then they can be happy members of a British Union too. The question is the constitutional design.

    It's better economically (and more secure and safe) for both Scotland and England to be in a common market, with a common currency, and with a common defence and security policy. It also gives macroeconomic strength and resilience to both too.

    There could be perhaps be more flexibility or co-decision making on foreign policy and foreign deployments. British passports could be branded "Scotland" as Isle of Man or Channel Islands are too with a different design.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    I just can't stop laughing BigG. Genuinely!
    Trouble is, he is serious and is a chairman of a conservative constituency association
    Chairman of my branch not the full association
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is in NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    You can't be serious. This is comedy gold.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985

    algarkirk said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To preserve the unity of an island called Britain instead of splitting it up.
    By force?

    You WILL be united!!
    Force is a nonsense

    There are plenty of economic, emotional and family reason to continue in the union but I do think Scotland should have more autonomy within the union
    Keeping Scotland in the union against its wishes is force though. That’s my point.
    No-one is arguing for preserving it by force.

    That's not who we are. We're not Spain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2020
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is the Union for ?

    To preserve the Hanoverian succession
    To safeguard the Protestant religion
    To stop a French / German / Russian invasion
    To provide 40+ Labour MPs

    It doesn't seem to have a current purpose.

    To help ensure the UK's place on the UN Security Council, to avoid a hard border and customs at the Scottish borders, so we benefit from Scottish whisky and universities and Scottish regiments, so Scotland benefits from the Barnett formula still etc
    So British empire posturing and a bit of trade.

    You're going to have to come up with better than that.
    60% of Scottish exports go to England, if we go to WTO terms Brexit by January, the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes win next September we will have tariffs on Scottish exports to England and vice versa and customs posts along the Scottish borders by Christmas 2021
    So you will have to import them from elsewhere and pay bigger tariffs you halfwit.
    So will Scotland on exports from England, while facing a big threat to exports to its biggest market
  • HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Have you just dreamed that?
    Why would Comrade Putin be bothered ?
    A pact with Eck?
    We’ve yet to see what his next move is and what havoc he’ll cause for the nats.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    Only one letting down the tory party here is you HYUFD. You consistently take repugnant views which makes even right wingers like me go wtf. You consistently change tack saying something will never happen because its tories in charge then when they do it anyway its like you always supported it. You are a blind follower. Your party wrong or right. I don't care what side people are on I do care they think for themselves and when the opposition is right they support it out of principle and when your party is wrong you denounce it out of principle.

    The problem with politics in this country is there are far too many people like you involved.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I don't think we should engaged with a George Galloway supporter.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,985

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is in NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    You can't be serious. This is comedy gold.
    I think a lot of European countries are secretly grateful they can shield themselves behind the NATO nuclear umbrella.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is in NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Nonsense. English and Welsh soldiers would be more than willing to help defend an independent Scotland from foreign invasion, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Whether we are in political union is irrelevant.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    There’s no reason why we cannot have a British Isles version of NATO.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    edited August 2020

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is in NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    You can't be serious. This is comedy gold.
    I think a lot of European countries are secretly grateful they can shield themselves behind the NATO nuclear umbrella.
    True, but in or out of the Union and Nato, I am sure the good old English Tommy will save Scotland from the Cossack marauders!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    Sighs Putin probably has no interest in annexing scotland, its disconnected from territory and as armies have always found distant colonies are hard to keep hold of. If he is a threat to anywhere it would be eastern europe and I doubt he even wants most of that. Russia is a paper tiger largely in terms of taking europe. The amount of oil and gas scotland has is neglible in terms of what russia already has access to
    Most of Eastern Europe is is NATO, if Scotland withdrew from NATO and gave up its nuclear deterrent it would leave itself vulnerable
    Vulnerable to what exactly? What countries anywhere the opposite side of the globe have been annexed by 'a few paratroopers'?

    Madness.
    Russia is on the same continent not the other side of the world.

    The Nazis captured the Netherlands largely by paratroopers in WW2
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    There is nothing uncompassionate about retaining NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent, it is simple military common sense
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    I am polite but your ravings are monstrous and not a credit to the party or the position you hold in it

    I would certainly stand against you if I lived in your constituency and was younger
    Good, bring it on.

    The Tories have always supported NATO membership and the nuclear deterrent for a reason, if you now go off at me for staying that simple fact it shows you are not really a conservative anyway
    I am far more a compassionate and sane conservative than you can ever be

    You are an example of the poison inflicting the right in this country
    I will send your application for sainthood to the Pope
  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
    I would not argue if it was earlier

    HYUFD's views disturb me
  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
    This group is getting all very personal at the moment. Never used to be like this. It’s one step removed from a Facebook politics group which is sad.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
    This group is getting all very personal at the moment. Never used to be like this. It’s one step removed from a Facebook politics group which is sad.
    Mine wasnt intended to be taken seriously, and was more political than personal.

    I agree the tone of several of the debates below is disappointing. It's almost as if Sean has arrived early, without so many long words.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,616

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
    This group is getting all very personal at the moment. Never used to be like this. It’s one step removed from a Facebook politics group which is sad.
    People have become more polarised here as politics has become more polarised. I am not sure that can be avoided. I personally have hope though over the last couple of years I have seen an increase of people here more ready to criticize the party they are a member of, and more willing to say this is no longer my party it has deserted me. This however has also led to more of the "My party right or wrong" mindset amongst some as a reaction.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    edited August 2020
    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I think the most serious question about a split in the Union (the UK will automatically lose a lot of its global and international influence as a consequence) is defence.

    How do we protect the GIUK gap, and defend the British Isles and its surrounding waters against Russian incursions and espionage?

    At present, the SNP seem more interested in booting out British forces, and the nuclear deterrent, than seriously considering the closest of alliances.

    Putin must be licking his lips.

    Why would we mind them spying on the scottish after independence? What happens in the scots airspace or scots waters is something for the scots to decide surely.....hell if the scots after independence decided to offer Moscow an army base in the cairngorms I don't see why we should mind.
    Our defence is predicated on the security of both the Channel and the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap because that's where threats to our shipping lanes and physical security as an island develop.

    We could never tolerate (and neither could NATO, the EU or the US) what you suggest in your final sentence (which seems like something a Russian bot would write) as that army base would physically threaten us and could march straight down to London.
    Well I am not a russian bot. Nor do I think it likely the SNP would offer an army base to Putin. However if they don't join Nato I don't see there is much we could do if they decided to. No more than we could if France left Nato and invited him to do so.

    If the conditions we need to defend change then we need to change defense plans simple as that. In this case it sounds like an independent scotland requires them to change as presumably the scots wont have the airforce or navy necessary to deter the russians for a while.

    Nato is pretty much Kaput as the eu seem intent on pulling their own army together and Trump seems less than interested and I suspect if he wins again you might see a us withdrawal.

    The reality is we could object all we want but it would be empty words I don't see the EU or UK or Nato invading scotland to dislodge a base do you?
    If they decided to do so it would precipitate a British Cuban missile crisis. There'd be a military blockade of the British Isles, which the US and EU would join in on, and Scotland would be utterly isolated.

    A neutral or unaligned Scotland would make everyone's lives much harder, but it could be accepted.

    It being an ally of Putin's Russia would threaten Western security and it would invite a proportionate response.
    You unionists really are wetting your pants now , the fantasies about life after defeat get ever more stupid.
    It's not my fantasy Malc. It's what I think would happen in such a scenario.

    Scotland isn't Ireland: it occupies a very important strategic position.
    The UK would not under any circumstance invade an independent Scotland. It would face a revolt if it did amongst its own people. For everyone like you will to send young men to go kill scots there are a lot more who would be standing in your way.
    It wouldn't be there to kill Scots - it would be there to evict or pre-empt Russian troop deployments or basing. The same would have happened to the Irish sea ports in WWII had the need ever arised.

    And you think an independent scotland is going to stand by while uk troops wander in?

    For a start 8% of uk troops are from scotland, they would be on the other side. A good part of the other 92% is likely to know some of them and be reluctant to fight. Then you would have all the scots living in england not being very happy with the move, probably joined by a lot of the welsh, irish and cornish.

    Most people don't care what the military think they don't really see Putin as a big threat to their way of life and really wouldn't give a toss about their being an army camp no more than they did when american bases were set up. They would care about an invasion of Scotland as they would see it as akin to a civil war and would know to many people on both sides.

    All evidence this century shows the EU and NATO will do nothing about russia. Ask Crimea and the Ukraine. No one really cares apart from you and probably HYUFD.

    I suspect most are like me and if asked to rank the threats to their way of life would probably list them as

    1) The uk government
    2) China
    3) USA
    .....
    10099th Vladimir Putin
    Scotland has a lot of oil, if an Independent Scotland gave up its nuclear deterrent and left NATO Putin could quickly send a few paratroopers and carriers and subs to Scotland and take it over
    You are beyond idiotic and a disgrace to the conservative party

    Time letters were sent in to have you removed from your position

    Frankly, you disgust me
    Frankly I have had enough of your pomposity and refusal to engage in facts rather than just insult me.

    From someone who used to be polite BigG you have gone downhill rapidly and I will take no lectures from you about threats to my party position when you refused to even vote Conservative in 2001 but voted Labour, the party values loyalty above all else!!
    No the party doesn't value loyalty above all else. Anything that does isn't fit to deserve loyalty.
    Of course it does, as does Labour why else was Alistair Campbell suspended when he voted LD at the 2019 European elections and why else did the same happen to Heseltine with the Tories, Ann Widdecombe was expelled as soon as she backed the Brexit Party
    And I hope you are expelled once the party gains it's compassion
    We have to wait that long?
    I would not argue if it was earlier

    HYUFD's views disturb me
    The choice between the true zealot and the long term sceptic who nevertheless caved and voted for it all, just the same, isn't an easy one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    @HYUFD why do you think England and Wales wouldn’t want to defend Scotland from foreign attack? Spite?

    We sacrificed 380k soldiers in the defence of Czechoslovakia in WW2.

    Let’s be real - England would always, to the best of its ability, guarantee Scottish independence, through use of its nuclear deterrent or otherwise.

    There is too much shared history to suggest otherwise.

    I’m willing to bet that if the ROI was threatened even now, the public would be massively in support of defending them whatever it takes.

    They might but I don't think English mothers would exactly be rushing to send their boys to potential death to defend a Scotland which voted to Leave the UK, then to leave NATO and nor would an English PM necessarily want to risk nuclear holocaust to defend a country other than their own.

    If Scotland remained in NATO and kept its nuclear deterrent however English and Welsh support for Scotland against invasion would be guaranteed
This discussion has been closed.