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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
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    A useful summary of all that red tape we're getting rid of tangling business up in:

    https://twitter.com/DanielFerrie/status/1295703716302135296

    You have identified a major Brexit benefit, Richard - loads more jobs for consultants who can help UK companies navigate the mountains of additional red tape the UK government is in the process of imposing on them.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,007

    A useful summary of all that red tape we're getting rid of tangling business up in:

    https://twitter.com/DanielFerrie/status/1295703716302135296

    You have identified a major Brexit benefit, Richard - loads more jobs for consultants who can help UK companies navigate the mountains of additional red tape the UK government is in the process of imposing on them.

    If only all the red tape was available.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062

    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales @Philip_Thompson I thought you said all student place issues had been fixed.

    Yet I come back from a day of holiday and instantly find https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53830172 as the top story in the BBC education section.

    Now I really shouldn't be surprised that you believed the headline and ignored the detail but even so.

    I did not say anything of the kind

    The political decisions by all four nations may have been the right thing to do but the problems if has caused are huge and it personally worries me for my granddaughters university placing when she takes her A levels next year

    I think we should all accept that the quangos and politicians across the land have failed comprehensively and I really do worry about the long term damage to education due to the debasing of the whole system
    You said Sky had reported that the funding restrictions had been resolved - as I said they hadn't been...
    If Sky said that then I was quoting Sky

    But the whole thing is a mess and condemnation should be across the UK to the quangos and politicians.

    We had the ridiculous situation here in Wales that Drakeford only followed England after their announcement admitting they were really not for the change

    Watching Sky and BBC they are increasingly becoming the English broadcasting corporation virtually ignoring Wales
    The population ration between England and Wales is about 18:1, what do you expect? What would be a fair proportion of time dedicated to Welsh issues on Sky, a commercial TV station broadcasting to both, amongst others?
    They have always been the English Broadcasting Corporation
    I really dont get this view. What do you expect? The BBC have dedicated Scottish and Welsh channels, local radio, Wales has s4c, it isnt hard at all to get local news coverage.

    I have no strong views on whether Scotland and/or Wales should be independent, have more or less devolution and think its primarily a view for them to decide, but sour grapes about TV stations focusing mainly on its much bigger audience sections is quite bizarre.
    It has been pointed out, for example, that the main news programmes are UK-wide and stories about subjects such as education and health are largely irrelevant outside England.
    And Nicola Sturgeoun's 20-30 minute daily briefings on BBC1 were not relevant to 95% of the audience. Its give and take.
    Apart from fact you cannot even spell her name, presume you did not watch even 5 seconds of all those broadcasts, that is bollox. We get wall to wall England coverage and next to F all about Scotland. It is a crap service.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343

    Dura_Ace said:



    If you're not sure who is worse then you're not thinking straight or you don't want to.

    Dave agrees with me.


    I've said before that picture will become Dave's Tea with Mussolini moment in years to come.
    Ted Heath fawned over Mao, doesn't seem to have dented his reputation much.
    You think?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    Mr. Observer, the Government indicated it would go for the Canadian option, at which point the EU withdrew it, claiming the UK's proximity meant it wasn't viable, despite having been on offer for literally years.

    Considering the ridicule Raab received for apparently just realising the UK is right next to continental Europe, it's remarkable that this act of duplicity based on a laughably thin pretext hasn't received more condemnation.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,176
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    Measuring technological progress by change in total factor productivity at the national or industry level- which a competent economist will tell you is the way to do it - there was indeed a marked slowdown in the latter part of the 20th century.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    DavidL said:

    Its funny that many on the left are angry about this appointment too.

    Johnson's government has achieved the spectacular feat of uniting twitter against it
    You know I had my doubts but if all of Twitter is against it, there must be something to be said for it.
    Go on then, what ?

    I simply don't understand the reason for the Didolatry.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,007
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    William Gibson said "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed." A lot of things take time for them to become common place - the speed of takeup has increased rapidly over the years but it still takes time for things to be launched and become common place.

    And there is still a lot of original thought but when we look back at things we know were invented prior to 1950 how many only started to be important after a complete product was created 20-50 years later. So I suspect you will hear the same argument in 30 years time, no original thoughts have occurred since 2000...

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    A handful of absolute clowns
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216
    edited August 2020
    Quelle surprise.

    I think I'm detecting a pattern.

    https://twitter.com/marcuscarslaw1/status/1296027886047178753?s=20
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,557

    algarkirk said:

    Rexel56 said:

    I’m still puzzled about the apparent aversion to “grade inflation” and why Williams demanded that it be avoided. This year’s cohort are the first to have taken the new, more rigorous GCSE specifications - where these more academically demanding qualifications not meant to lead to higher pass rates at A level? If not, why not?

    Old uns dont like young uns having better grades than them. Old uns are in charge.
    In 1973 the standard grades offered for entry to top universities in popular subjects was around BBC. The course for which I got that offer now asks A*AA, and they take 6 times more people than in those far off days. So I think us older ones have got used to it by now. Naturally young people are much cleverer than we were.
    I did A-levels in the 80s. Off feel the average pupil now probably does 2-3x the amount of homework and revision compared to the average pupil in my day. They take it more seriously, have better teachers, access to a wider variety of teaching media to find what suits them best so they should get better grades without being significantly cleverer than we were.
    I had a friend about twenty years ago who was adamant that it was pure grade inflation and waxed lyrical about it. Then his sister became a teacher.

    He looked into it in a lot more depth and ended up with a far more nuanced outlook.
    According to him, the grade inflation seemed comprised of multiple things:

    - Changed teaching methods. The teachers now spent a lot longer on structuring their lessons to optimise different learning techniques and ensure coverage. The work done by teachers outside of lessons is staggering.
    - Significantly increased homework and coursework. The pupils genuinely do more work than we did.
    - More targeted learning. The Department of Education and Ofqual all set things up so that any time you spent that isn't teaching directly to the test is wasteful and discouraged.
    - Improved facilities and teaching media. This feeds into the different learning techniques.
    - (At the time): retakes. He was originally extremely skeptical about the value of retakes ("Just keep going until you get the result you want"), but he did a 180 on these ("Any test where luck has enough of a part that you can just try repeatedly until you roll sixes isn't a test that's worth the name"). The retakes reduced the random aspect of sitting tests (One bad day in two years, emotional damage, minor fuckup that ends up changing your life, etc).
    - Plus a small element of genuine grade inflation, which was different in different subjects. That, however, was all most people focused on, because it was the easiest to grasp.

    A good summary. I would add in the influence of a) Ofsted, and b) performance league tables, over the last 20 years. Whatever one thinks of these accountability mechanisms, there is no doubt that they have ratcheted up the pressure on schools/colleges to deliver improved results (completion rates, pass rates and value-added).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    William Gibson said "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed." A lot of things take time for them to become common place - the speed of takeup has increased rapidly over the years but it still takes time for things to be launched and become common place.

    And there is still a lot of original thought but when we look back at things we know were invented prior to 1950 how many only started to be important after a complete product was created 20-50 years later. So I suspect you will hear the same argument in 30 years time, no original thoughts have occurred since 2000...

    Excellent writer.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,496
    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    If you're not sure who is worse then you're not thinking straight or you don't want to.

    Dave agrees with me.


    I've said before that picture will become Dave's Tea with Mussolini moment in years to come.
    Ted Heath fawned over Mao, doesn't seem to have dented his reputation much.
    You think?
    No, I think being a premier league twat dented his reputation. I don't think Mao is even a footnote.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    10% Sindy lead. Oof.
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    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ‘Robert Halfon, the Conservative chair of the education select committee, said the prime minister must personally lead the back-to-school campaign in order to ensure confidence.’

    Er - no. Nothing would be more likely to see the government forfeit what little confidence is left on this issue than having imbeciles like Johnson and Cummings in direct charge of this. Not even Williamson, improbable though that may seem.

    Halfon is usually very good on education but he’s slipped up there.

    He would - and I mean this seriously - have been better calling for the ESC to take charge of it themselves. They’re quite good.

    The key to having schools re-open is having protocols that work, and are not chaotic and contradictory. If parents and teachers have confidence then there won't be an issue.
    I wish it were so simple. The virus does not obey the rules of politics. The matter will be judged neither on protocols or advance confidence. By mid October we will have an idea whether 9 million school children, 2 million undergraduates and a million+ staff all working together in enclosed spaces indirectly kills large numbers of people and/or brings the country to a halt. I seriously doubt whether anyone has, or could have, any idea where we will be by October. Who is in titular charge of the virus and education will make no difference.

    On the contrary.
    If someone had the sense to roll out on a mass scale the saliva test just approved by the FDA in the US, which is free to copy, can be run by any lab the same day, only costs around £5 a time, and can be pooled, it could be done in comparative safety.
    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-issues-emergency-use-authorization-yale-school-public-health
    Actually, there ought to be nothing to stop any university with a bio lab to set up their own testing regime.
    They could do pooled tests of every department or college on a weekly, or even daily basis. The costs would be pretty low, and the results quick enough to go back and test every individual in a department if infection showed up.

    ...SalivaDirect does not require any special type of swab or collection device; a saliva sample can be collected in any sterile container. This test is also unique because it does not require a separate nucleic acid extraction step. This is significant because the extraction kits used for this step in other tests have been prone to shortages in the past. Being able to perform a test without these kits enhances the capacity for increased testing, while reducing the strain on available resources. Additionally, the SalivaDirect methodology has been validated and authorized for use with different combinations of commonly used reagents and instruments, meaning the test could be used broadly in most high-complexity labs.

    Yale intends to provide the SalivaDirect protocol to interested laboratories as an “open source” protocol, meaning that designated laboratories could follow the protocol to obtain the required components and perform the test in their lab according to Yale’s instructions for use. Because this test does not rely on any proprietary equipment from Yale and can use a variety of commercially available testing components, it can be assembled and used in high-complexity labs throughout the country, provided they comply with the conditions of authorization in the EUA....
    Oxford is rolling out its own testing service, but the current plan seems to be only for symptomatic students and staff. Results supposed to be back in 24 hours. This could be useful in preventing the usual colds and flu from panicking everyone, but it probably won't do a lot to reduce CV transmission.

    I'm sure they have the capability to do pooled saliva testing en masse, and the maths does show that this could make a big difference to spread, but University leaderships are no more competent than government ministers so...

    --AS
    The marginal cost of pooled tests (on top of the lab overhead) would be around 50p per head. It seems an absolute no brainer to me, as it ought to be a great deal easier to set up than the existing rigmarole.
    Indeed, it's a no brainer. Unfortunately the people with brains (academics -- well, some of them, anyway!) aren't involved in the policy-making. "University leaders" are very much the same class as politicians nowadays, sad to say.

    --AS
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    algarkirk said:

    Rexel56 said:

    I’m still puzzled about the apparent aversion to “grade inflation” and why Williams demanded that it be avoided. This year’s cohort are the first to have taken the new, more rigorous GCSE specifications - where these more academically demanding qualifications not meant to lead to higher pass rates at A level? If not, why not?

    Old uns dont like young uns having better grades than them. Old uns are in charge.
    In 1973 the standard grades offered for entry to top universities in popular subjects was around BBC. The course for which I got that offer now asks A*AA, and they take 6 times more people than in those far off days. So I think us older ones have got used to it by now. Naturally young people are much cleverer than we were.
    Not true though. Students awarded BCC in 1973 could reasonably expect AAA today. Assessment procedures were so very different - including zero coursework. The key change - and cause of subsequent rampant grade inflation - happened in the late 1980s when Absolute Marking replaced Relative Marking.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited August 2020

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    If there's a hard Brexit, that may rise to 60 to 40 % or more.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    geoffw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    Measuring technological progress by change in total factor productivity at the national or industry level- which a competent economist will tell you is the way to do it - there was indeed a marked slowdown in the latter part of the 20th century.

    No it isn't, it's just a particularly dull metric which, agreed, would appeal to an economist. Technology is notably counterproductive; pre-broadband, it was simply impossible to waste time as effortlessly and comprehensively as PB.com wastes time. Does that mean the internet was a technological step backwards?
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    But you have always said Boris will say no
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Its funny that many on the left are angry about this appointment too.

    Johnson's government has achieved the spectacular feat of uniting twitter against it
    You know I had my doubts but if all of Twitter is against it, there must be something to be said for it.
    Go on then, what ?

    I simply don't understand the reason for the Didolatry.
    Hmm, now you are putting me on the spot. She likes horse racing and is a member of the Jockey club?
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,468
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    William Gibson said "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed." A lot of things take time for them to become common place - the speed of takeup has increased rapidly over the years but it still takes time for things to be launched and become common place.

    And there is still a lot of original thought but when we look back at things we know were invented prior to 1950 how many only started to be important after a complete product was created 20-50 years later. So I suspect you will hear the same argument in 30 years time, no original thoughts have occurred since 2000...

    Some things are a bit more subtle now, too. People look back at the TV as a great invention (and - reasonably - credit Baird as the inventor although very few people ever had a Baird-system TV). Do people see plasma TVs as an invention or LCD displays or OLED or micro-LED displays as inventions? Not in the same way, but they're equally staggering.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    But you have always said Boris will say no
    I still think he will say no but if he did say yes....
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited August 2020
    Sean/ByronicLadyG made the good point yesterday that attempting to rejoin the EU in time may become Starmer's only route to power, by regaining Scotland.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,235
    justin124 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Rexel56 said:

    I’m still puzzled about the apparent aversion to “grade inflation” and why Williams demanded that it be avoided. This year’s cohort are the first to have taken the new, more rigorous GCSE specifications - where these more academically demanding qualifications not meant to lead to higher pass rates at A level? If not, why not?

    Old uns dont like young uns having better grades than them. Old uns are in charge.
    In 1973 the standard grades offered for entry to top universities in popular subjects was around BBC. The course for which I got that offer now asks A*AA, and they take 6 times more people than in those far off days. So I think us older ones have got used to it by now. Naturally young people are much cleverer than we were.
    Not true though. Students awarded BCC in 1973 could reasonably expect AAA today. Assessment procedures were so very different - including zero coursework. The key change - and cause of subsequent rampant grade inflation - happened in the late 1980s when Absolute Marking replaced Relative Marking.
    I think there was a hint of sarcasm in there...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    No, project fact that would be inevitable if GB was out of the single market and customs union and with no FTA with the EU and Scotland then voted for independence
  • Options

    Sean/ByronicLadyG made the good point yesterday that attempting to rejoin the EU in time may become Starmer's only route to power, by regaining Scotland.

    Utterly toxic in England though
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,176
    IshmaelZ said:

    geoffw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    Measuring technological progress by change in total factor productivity at the national or industry level- which a competent economist will tell you is the way to do it - there was indeed a marked slowdown in the latter part of the 20th century.

    No it isn't, it's just a particularly dull metric which, agreed, would appeal to an economist. Technology is notably counterproductive; pre-broadband, it was simply impossible to waste time as effortlessly and comprehensively as PB.com wastes time. Does that mean the internet was a technological step backwards?
    Can you suggest a better metric?

  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Its funny that many on the left are angry about this appointment too.

    Johnson's government has achieved the spectacular feat of uniting twitter against it
    You know I had my doubts but if all of Twitter is against it, there must be something to be said for it.
    Go on then, what ?

    I simply don't understand the reason for the Didolatry.
    She seems well-qualified, and effective. The only vaguely coherent criticism of her record is that she was in charge when TalkTalk was badly hacked, but anyone of any sense knows that that's a case of 'there by by the grace of God...' - multiple organizations, private sector, public sector, government, military, have been hacked, and it's not at all an easy thing to defend yourself against.

    In fact it might even be the other way round. The fact that she's had the experience of being in charge when there's a serious cybersecurity breach may well be a lesson well learnt. And indeed she seems to have learnt it - last month she appointed a (very well qualified) relative of mine to the role of Chief Information Security Officer for Test and Trace, so she's doing something right!
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    No, project fact that would be inevitable if GB was out of the single market and customs union and with no FTA with the EU and Scotland then voted for independence
    There are alternative facts.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,320
    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    In case you hadn’t noticed, Berwick is a fairly minor point of entry into England from Scotland. If your Glorious Leader confines himself to putting customs posts there, cross-border businesses will be very happy to continue working through Gretna as they do right now.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    Though 51% Yes not 55% Yes including Don't Knows
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    It may be but it is a real possibility a custom border will have to be created from Berwick to Carlisle making it far more of a problem than the Irish border
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    IshmaelZ said:

    geoffw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    Measuring technological progress by change in total factor productivity at the national or industry level- which a competent economist will tell you is the way to do it - there was indeed a marked slowdown in the latter part of the 20th century.

    No it isn't, it's just a particularly dull metric which, agreed, would appeal to an economist. Technology is notably counterproductive; pre-broadband, it was simply impossible to waste time as effortlessly and comprehensively as PB.com wastes time. Does that mean the internet was a technological step backwards?
    I sometimes feel that my time on PB is the most productive part of my day but I do need to go and be unproductive elsewhere.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    Though 51% Yes not 55% Yes including Don't Knows
    Just for you.

    'Including undecided: Yes 51%, No 42%, Undecided 7%.'
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited August 2020

    Sean/ByronicLadyG made the good point yesterday that attempting to rejoin the EU in time may become Starmer's only route to power, by regaining Scotland.

    Utterly toxic in England though
    Depending on the effects of any hard Brexit. A combined covid and Brexit slump may destroy any depth of public support for Brexit.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    In case you hadn’t noticed, Berwick is a fairly minor point of entry into England from Scotland. If your Glorious Leader confines himself to putting customs posts there, cross-border businesses will be very happy to continue working through Gretna as they do right now.
    The WTO would require customs posts at roads across the Scottish borders, including Gretna
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    Though 51% Yes not 55% Yes including Don't Knows
    How are dont knows allocated in the poll then
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Not only do Dido's old firm get a nice wad of dosh to run Test and Trace, they get to keep your data.

    https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1295869619836801025?s=09

    That's pretty stupid. There will be people who refuse to give their data because they don't want some American consultancy firm playing with it - fuck it, I might be one of them. Still, all that data will be useful when McKinsey want to pitch for work with the US health firms that will be invited to run the NHS when the US trade deal goes through.
    Frankly I would trust Huawei more than McKinsey and Dido with my data.
    No you wouldn't.

    You're just saying that to make a political point.
    No, the Chinese have never done anything dodgy with my data, while at the core of government here people have a track record of misusing and mishandling data.
    +1. No doubt the Chinese are more dangerous if one has important defence data or the like. But I doubt if Huawei care what I'm doing, while I wouldn't be in the least surprised to hear that the British government makes use of it and quite possibly sells it.

    The whole anti-Huawei case is contaminated by the obvious fact that Trump is obsessed with China-bashing, partly for domestic reasons and partly as he thinks it'll lead to a better outcome to trade negotiations. It's possible that they are a genuine proble, but Britain seems to be dragged along with Trump's paranoia which isn't nemcessarily even genuine.
    Ladies & Gentlemen: the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the modern British Left.

    Atlee and Bevin must be turning in their graves.
    It was Osborne and May who were desperate to flog our national assets to China. Boris may have about turned, but he certainly didn't want to and was pressured into it.

    Recently, Labour have been calling for human rights sanctions on China.
    Let's see if Boris does anything.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    It may be but it is a real possibility a custom border will have to be created from Berwick to Carlisle making it far more of a problem than the Irish border
    If Dover - Calais is not a problem then why would the Scottish border be a problem? There’s plenty of land north of Carlisle and Berwick to build infrastructure if needed.

    Not that I want that to happen of course.
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    Sean/ByronicLadyG made the good point yesterday that attempting to rejoin the EU in time may become Starmer's only route to power, by regaining Scotland.

    Utterly toxic in England though
    Depending on the effects of any hard Brexit. A combined covid and Brexit slump may destroy support for Brexit.
    Well true but Keir must wait to go down that line
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    That's presumably why his 12 years in power were marked by the complete demolition of the Thatcherite inheritance....?
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,992
    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?
  • Options
    Can somebody link me this 10% lead
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    In case you hadn’t noticed, Berwick is a fairly minor point of entry into England from Scotland. If your Glorious Leader confines himself to putting customs posts there, cross-border businesses will be very happy to continue working through Gretna as they do right now.
    The WTO would require customs posts at roads across the Scottish borders, including Gretna
    Doesn’t really matter to be honest.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,235
    So quick thought - if face coverings are not required in Wales when shopping, is there emerging evidence that England is doing better at reducing the epidemic? Or as some think are masks playing a negligible role on the virus, but a bigger one in the 'seem to be doing something' stakes?
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,791
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales @Philip_Thompson I thought you said all student place issues had been fixed.

    Yet I come back from a day of holiday and instantly find https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53830172 as the top story in the BBC education section.

    Now I really shouldn't be surprised that you believed the headline and ignored the detail but even so.

    I did not say anything of the kind

    The political decisions by all four nations may have been the right thing to do but the problems if has caused are huge and it personally worries me for my granddaughters university placing when she takes her A levels next year

    I think we should all accept that the quangos and politicians across the land have failed comprehensively and I really do worry about the long term damage to education due to the debasing of the whole system
    You said Sky had reported that the funding restrictions had been resolved - as I said they hadn't been...
    If Sky said that then I was quoting Sky

    But the whole thing is a mess and condemnation should be across the UK to the quangos and politicians.

    We had the ridiculous situation here in Wales that Drakeford only followed England after their announcement admitting they were really not for the change

    Watching Sky and BBC they are increasingly becoming the English broadcasting corporation virtually ignoring Wales
    The population ration between England and Wales is about 18:1, what do you expect? What would be a fair proportion of time dedicated to Welsh issues on Sky, a commercial TV station broadcasting to both, amongst others?
    They have always been the English Broadcasting Corporation
    I really dont get this view. What do you expect? The BBC have dedicated Scottish and Welsh channels, local radio, Wales has s4c, it isnt hard at all to get local news coverage.

    I have no strong views on whether Scotland and/or Wales should be independent, have more or less devolution and think its primarily a view for them to decide, but sour grapes about TV stations focusing mainly on its much bigger audience sections is quite bizarre.
    It has been pointed out, for example, that the main news programmes are UK-wide and stories about subjects such as education and health are largely irrelevant outside England.
    And Nicola Sturgeoun's 20-30 minute daily briefings on BBC1 were not relevant to 95% of the audience. Its give and take.
    Apart from fact you cannot even spell her name, presume you did not watch even 5 seconds of all those broadcasts, that is bollox. We get wall to wall England coverage and next to F all about Scotland. It is a crap service.
    I make plenty of spelling mistakes and even more typos all the time, did watch a fair amount Sturgeon, especially in the early days of the pandemic, and would have much preferred her leadership to the one we had. Quite happy for her to have coverage, just think its unreasonable for her to get lots and lots of coverage and then people moan that there is virtually no coverage of Scotland.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    No, project fact that would be inevitable if GB was out of the single market and customs union and with no FTA with the EU and Scotland then voted for independence
    There are alternative facts.
    Funny how Brexit = Good and Scottish Indy = Bad when, in reality, they are much the same thing.

    With our Bluekip Govt, I do not really blame the Scots for wanting Indy but in reality it is as daft as Brexit and for the same reasons.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Nice foreignpolicy article on UK and China here btw:
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/03/boris-johnson-sinophile-china-hawk/
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    It may be but it is a real possibility a custom border will have to be created from Berwick to Carlisle making it far more of a problem than the Irish border
    If Dover - Calais is not a problem then why would the Scottish border be a problem? There’s plenty of land north of Carlisle and Berwick to build infrastructure if needed.

    Not that I want that to happen of course.
    The structures are not a problem, Scots exports through them to the rest of UK will be an issue for the Scots and the tariffs
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,320
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    In case you hadn’t noticed, Berwick is a fairly minor point of entry into England from Scotland. If your Glorious Leader confines himself to putting customs posts there, cross-border businesses will be very happy to continue working through Gretna as they do right now.
    The WTO would require customs posts at roads across the Scottish borders, including Gretna
    The WTO couldn’t require a snowflake in a furnace to melt. They are one of the few organisations on the planet more useless than OFQUAL.

    However, on your substantive point, I was wondering why you picked Berwick rather than Gretna as your example. Customs posts at Berwick would be at best a minor nuisance. As they would be at say,Kelso. But at Gretna or Carlisle they would be a very serious headache.
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    HYUFD said:

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    Though 51% Yes not 55% Yes including Don't Knows
    Just for you.

    'Including undecided: Yes 51%, No 42%, Undecided 7%.'
    The accurate poll then is 51% v 42%
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    Surely Hancock's sea is now upgraded to a B when his incompetence can now be more fairly compared with others in the cabinet?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    It may be but it is a real possibility a custom border will have to be created from Berwick to Carlisle making it far more of a problem than the Irish border
    I think you meant much less of a problem.

    Number of road crossings between NI & Ireland - c.270

    Number of road crossings between Scotland & England - 25
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101
    HYUFD said:

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    Though 51% Yes not 55% Yes including Don't Knows
    There's no goalpost you won't move.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    In case you hadn’t noticed, Berwick is a fairly minor point of entry into England from Scotland. If your Glorious Leader confines himself to putting customs posts there, cross-border businesses will be very happy to continue working through Gretna as they do right now.
    The WTO would require customs posts at roads across the Scottish borders, including Gretna
    Don’t forget gunboats patrolling the Tweed, with a battalion of crack armed infantry permanently stationed by the Ba Green.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Yes.

    Revenue = Customers * Charge

    therefore Charge = Revenue / Customers

    If Revenue is to remain the same and Customers go down, then Charge will go up.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216
    DavidL said:

    Surely Hancock's sea is now upgraded to a B when his incompetence can now be more fairly compared with others in the cabinet?
    Surely meaningless to take the results from a failing school in isolation?
  • Options

    Sean/ByronicLadyG made the good point yesterday that attempting to rejoin the EU in time may become Starmer's only route to power, by regaining Scotland.

    Utterly toxic in England though
    Depending on the effects of any hard Brexit. A combined covid and Brexit slump may destroy any depth of public support for Brexit.
    It could but it may not

    I fully expect travel restrictions will carry on due to covid well into next year and in this perverse world covid may provide cover for Brexit

    It is a really unpredictable time and I cannot see an early end, if even any end, to enable us to go back to a more normal way of life
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    Though 51% Yes not 55% Yes including Don't Knows
    There's no goalpost you won't move.
    Only when it supports his agenda.

    Why is he called a polling font? He's really not.
  • Options
    And in this surreal world 29 billion is less than the furlough scheme a month
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Commuter fares have always been held artificially below the true market clearing price before now, whether that's true going forward I'm not sure.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    It is one way traffic now.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    No, project fact that would be inevitable if GB was out of the single market and customs union and with no FTA with the EU and Scotland then voted for independence
    There are alternative facts.
    Funny how Brexit = Good and Scottish Indy = Bad when, in reality, they are much the same thing.

    With our Bluekip Govt, I do not really blame the Scots for wanting Indy but in reality it is as daft as Brexit and for the same reasons.
    Not quite the same.

    Brexit plus having this bunch of useless tossers imposed on us v. almost certainly being readmitted to the EU plus being able to choose our own useless tossers then kick them out if necessary.
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    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Little is making sense right now and I agree, they should be frozen
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Its funny that many on the left are angry about this appointment too.

    Johnson's government has achieved the spectacular feat of uniting twitter against it
    You know I had my doubts but if all of Twitter is against it, there must be something to be said for it.
    Go on then, what ?

    I simply don't understand the reason for the Didolatry.
    She seems well-qualified, and effective. The only vaguely coherent criticism of her record is that she was in charge when TalkTalk was badly hacked, but anyone of any sense knows that that's a case of 'there by by the grace of God...' - multiple organizations, private sector, public sector, government, military, have been hacked, and it's not at all an easy thing to defend yourself against.

    In fact it might even be the other way round. The fact that she's had the experience of being in charge when there's a serious cybersecurity breach may well be a lesson well learnt. And indeed she seems to have learnt it - last month she appointed a (very well qualified) relative of mine to the role of Chief Information Security Officer for Test and Trace, so she's doing something right!
    You think track and trace has been a success?
    I think it's been a major failure. To be fair to Harding, she probably didn't come up with the idea to centralize it. But she should have realised she needed local public health.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942

    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Little is making sense right now and I agree, they should be frozen
    But the demand for fares was such previously they could have sold for plenty more than the Gov't enforced price. I'd venture to guess the new prices on commuter lines are still below where a true market would find it.
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    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland

    That is only the case if we choose it to be. If England and Scotland came to an agreement on trade there would be no need for any infrastructure. The English government will decide, just as it will decide on whether there is a deal with the EU.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,007

    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Yes.

    Revenue = Customers * Charge

    therefore Charge = Revenue / Customers

    If Revenue is to remain the same and Customers go down, then Charge will go up.
    Um if that was the case charges would be going up 100-200% not 1.6% as demand is at most a 1/3 of what it was.

    This 1.6% is the annual inflation price rise - except for the fact it keeps prices in line with inflation it makes absolutely zero business sense
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,193
    Pulpstar said:

    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Commuter fares have always been held artificially below the true market clearing price before now, whether that's true going forward I'm not sure.
    I always used to say that they could put up train fares by 50% and it wouldn't make much difference to demand in London and the South East.

    I'm not sure how much they'd need to cut the prices to see an increase in demand now...
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    Mr. Observer, the Government indicated it would go for the Canadian option, at which point the EU withdrew it, claiming the UK's proximity meant it wasn't viable, despite having been on offer for literally years.

    Considering the ridicule Raab received for apparently just realising the UK is right next to continental Europe, it's remarkable that this act of duplicity based on a laughably thin pretext hasn't received more condemnation.

    It's clearly not viable. We have made clear we don't want a Canada-style deal.

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    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    Sounds like project fear to me.
    It may be but it is a real possibility a custom border will have to be created from Berwick to Carlisle making it far more of a problem than the Irish border
    I think you meant much less of a problem.

    Number of road crossings between NI & Ireland - c.270

    Number of road crossings between Scotland & England - 25
    It is a 96 miles border with approx 10,000 HGV crossings a day
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,235
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Its funny that many on the left are angry about this appointment too.

    Johnson's government has achieved the spectacular feat of uniting twitter against it
    You know I had my doubts but if all of Twitter is against it, there must be something to be said for it.
    Go on then, what ?

    I simply don't understand the reason for the Didolatry.
    She seems well-qualified, and effective. The only vaguely coherent criticism of her record is that she was in charge when TalkTalk was badly hacked, but anyone of any sense knows that that's a case of 'there by by the grace of God...' - multiple organizations, private sector, public sector, government, military, have been hacked, and it's not at all an easy thing to defend yourself against.

    In fact it might even be the other way round. The fact that she's had the experience of being in charge when there's a serious cybersecurity breach may well be a lesson well learnt. And indeed she seems to have learnt it - last month she appointed a (very well qualified) relative of mine to the role of Chief Information Security Officer for Test and Trace, so she's doing something right!
    You think track and trace has been a success?
    I think it's been a major failure. To be fair to Harding, she probably didn't come up with the idea to centralize it. But she should have realised she needed local public health.
    I think its been a partial success. The local teams, doing the hotspots such as factories, other work sites, etc have done a sterling job. The hastily assembled, out-sourced phone contact teams have had lots of challenges, not least, I suspect, people ignoring phone calls from 0300 numbers... At least there has now been an acceptance of this, and a pivot in the policy.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Yes.

    Revenue = Customers * Charge

    therefore Charge = Revenue / Customers

    If Revenue is to remain the same and Customers go down, then Charge will go up.
    Um if that was the case charges would be going up 100-200% not 1.6% as demand is at most a 1/3 of what it was.

    This 1.6% is the annual inflation price rise - except for the fact it keeps prices in line with inflation it makes absolutely zero business sense
    Nothing the railways do makes any sense. When I last used them regularly (Manchester - London) a few years back, the variation in ticket prices was immense.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    geoffw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    Measuring technological progress by change in total factor productivity at the national or industry level- which a competent economist will tell you is the way to do it - there was indeed a marked slowdown in the latter part of the 20th century.

    "A competent economist".
    Nice one.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    eek said:


    Um if that was the case charges would be going up 100-200% not 1.6% as demand is at most a 1/3 of what it was.

    Bloody hell
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    And just for @HYUFD

    Including undecided: Yes 51%, No 42%, Undecided 7%.
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    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    In case you hadn’t noticed, Berwick is a fairly minor point of entry into England from Scotland. If your Glorious Leader confines himself to putting customs posts there, cross-border businesses will be very happy to continue working through Gretna as they do right now.
    The WTO would require customs posts at roads across the Scottish borders, including Gretna
    The WTO couldn’t require a snowflake in a furnace to melt. They are one of the few organisations on the planet more useless than OFQUAL.

    However, on your substantive point, I was wondering why you picked Berwick rather than Gretna as your example. Customs posts at Berwick would be at best a minor nuisance. As they would be at say,Kelso. But at Gretna or Carlisle they would be a very serious headache.
    They would span the 96 mile border from Berwick to Carlisle with Gretna the biggest border post
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    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland
    In case you hadn’t noticed, Berwick is a fairly minor point of entry into England from Scotland. If your Glorious Leader confines himself to putting customs posts there, cross-border businesses will be very happy to continue working through Gretna as they do right now.
    The WTO would require customs posts at roads across the Scottish borders, including Gretna
    Don’t forget gunboats patrolling the Tweed, with a battalion of crack armed infantry permanently stationed by the Ba Green.
    They would have a problem going up the weirs on the Tweed
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    There are surprisingly few roads between England and Scotland.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Pulpstar said:

    algarkirk said:

    Rexel56 said:

    I’m still puzzled about the apparent aversion to “grade inflation” and why Williams demanded that it be avoided. This year’s cohort are the first to have taken the new, more rigorous GCSE specifications - where these more academically demanding qualifications not meant to lead to higher pass rates at A level? If not, why not?

    Old uns dont like young uns having better grades than them. Old uns are in charge.
    In 1973 the standard grades offered for entry to top universities in popular subjects was around BBC. The course for which I got that offer now asks A*AA, and they take 6 times more people than in those far off days. So I think us older ones have got used to it by now. Naturally young people are much cleverer than we were.
    I did A-levels in the 80s. Off feel the average pupil now probably does 2-3x the amount of homework and revision compared to the average pupil in my day. They take it more seriously, have better teachers, access to a wider variety of teaching media to find what suits them best so they should get better grades without being significantly cleverer than we were.
    I had a friend about twenty years ago who was adamant that it was pure grade inflation and waxed lyrical about it. Then his sister became a teacher.

    He looked into it in a lot more depth and ended up with a far more nuanced outlook.
    According to him, the grade inflation seemed comprised of multiple things:

    - Changed teaching methods. The teachers now spent a lot longer on structuring their lessons to optimise different learning techniques and ensure coverage. The work done by teachers outside of lessons is staggering.
    - Significantly increased homework and coursework. The pupils genuinely do more work than we did.
    - More targeted learning. The Department of Education and Ofqual all set things up so that any time you spent that isn't teaching directly to the test is wasteful and discouraged.
    - Improved facilities and teaching media. This feeds into the different learning techniques.
    - (At the time): retakes. He was originally extremely skeptical about the value of retakes ("Just keep going until you get the result you want"), but he did a 180 on these ("Any test where luck has enough of a part that you can just try repeatedly until you roll sixes isn't a test that's worth the name"). The retakes reduced the random aspect of sitting tests (One bad day in two years, emotional damage, minor fuckup that ends up changing your life, etc).
    - Plus a small element of genuine grade inflation, which was different in different subjects. That, however, was all most people focused on, because it was the easiest to grasp.

    There's normally a small amount of grade inflation from year to year, but the overall effect is limited because people are competing for uni places etc against their cohort, not people who graduated twenty years ago.
    This year and next year are a bit different - there simply must be a significant amount of grade deflation next year as the overall inflation this year was absolubtely whopping.
    The assessment system of Relative Marking covered the period 1963 - 1988. I am not aware of much evidence of grade inflation over that time.
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    malcolmg said:

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    It is one way traffic now.
    It will be at the border
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,176
    Nigelb said:

    geoffw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Someone was complaining on here recently that there had been few inventions of significance in the second half of the 20th century.

    They were clearly incapable of seeing what was in front of their nose...

    Russell Kirsch, inventor of the pixel, dies in his Portland home at age 91
    https://www.dpreview.com/news/2623782158/russell-kirsch-inventor-of-the-pixel-dies-in-his-portland-home-at-age-91

    Had they missed the PC, mobile phone and internet?
    Probably not.
    I'd have to find the original post, but the thesis was that the rate of original and consequential invention has slowed dramatically, which I thought silly.
    Measuring technological progress by change in total factor productivity at the national or industry level- which a competent economist will tell you is the way to do it - there was indeed a marked slowdown in the latter part of the 20th century.

    "A competent economist".
    Nice one.
    Thanks. :smile:

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    eekeek Posts: 25,007
    Alistair said:

    There are surprisingly few roads between England and Scotland.

    Really, there are surprisingly few towns on the border between both countries and all those towns have direct(ish) connections...
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981


    Funny how Brexit = Good and Scottish Indy = Bad when, in reality, they are much the same thing.

    With our Bluekip Govt, I do not really blame the Scots for wanting Indy but in reality it is as daft as Brexit and for the same reasons.

    Not quite the same.

    Brexit plus having this bunch of useless tossers imposed on us v. almost certainly being readmitted to the EU plus being able to choose our own useless tossers then kick them out if necessary.
    Your arguments for Indy are almost word-for-word the same as the arguments here a few years back justifying Brexit.

    I sympathise with your desires, but I doubt Indy would be good for Scotland. Keep an eye on Norn Iron since it will be the test case from Jan 1st.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds like Govey is going to be the strategist behind Bettertogether II by default, just by having a tenth of a clue as opposed to the zilch possessed by the rest of the cabinet. Expect more vetted walkabouts in Peterburgh and Fraserhead.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1296024836888829953?s=20

    I am beginning to think that the SNP is currenty dictating Tory policy on "safeguarding" the Union.

    Of course if we end up with a WTO terms Brexit and no trade deal with the EU and there is a Nationalist majority at Holyrood next year, Boris grants indyref2 and Yes wins then there will be customs posts at Berwick soon after and tariffs on Scottish exports to England and English exports to Scotland

    That is only the case if we choose it to be. If England and Scotland came to an agreement on trade there would be no need for any infrastructure. The English government will decide, just as it will decide on whether there is a deal with the EU.

    London will be as hard with Edinburgh as Brussels is with London, Scots should expect no favours from Westminster if it votes for independence and over 50% of Scottish exports go to England, under 50% of UK exports go to the EU
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,130
    HYUFD said:

    10% Sindy lead. Oof.

    Though 51% Yes not 55% Yes including Don't Knows
    Has there been any recent polling on how many in England want to keep Scotland forced to remain in the UK?
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    eekeek Posts: 25,007

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    1.6% fare rise for the trains at a time of a collapse in demand.
    Anyone think this makes sense?

    Yes.

    Revenue = Customers * Charge

    therefore Charge = Revenue / Customers

    If Revenue is to remain the same and Customers go down, then Charge will go up.
    Um if that was the case charges would be going up 100-200% not 1.6% as demand is at most a 1/3 of what it was.

    This 1.6% is the annual inflation price rise - except for the fact it keeps prices in line with inflation it makes absolutely zero business sense
    Nothing the railways do makes any sense. When I last used them regularly (Manchester - London) a few years back, the variation in ticket prices was immense.
    Supply and demand is like that. A lot of people need to be there by 10 and want to go home from 16 but in the middle and after that demand is low because being on a train isn't where they need to be.
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    Many of the Tory supporters want to put barbed wire and shoot immigrants in the sea, I am sure examples such as this will change their mind
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    TresTres Posts: 2,234
    Alistair said:

    And just for @HYUFD

    Including undecided: Yes 51%, No 42%, Undecided 7%.

    And there were no more unionists left.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    Well errm the rises did make sense previously because the tickets (as @tlg86 points out) would always have the same demand at that price. I guess we're now into a holding pattern but post vaccine the numbers might head up a bit (Perhaps not to where they were) then the Gov't needs to decide whether it wants to

    i) Maximise revenue
    ii) Maximise passenger numbers

    as it'll no longer perhaps have the luxury of a high natural clearing price.

    Any previous capacity case for HS2 could also be dead in the water.

    For now though I guess they'll carry on as before. Definitely some thinking to be done on this though.
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,791
    Alistair said:

    There are surprisingly few roads between England and Scotland.

    Please dont Boris, or we will have plans for some bizarre superhighway in the sky to address this.
This discussion has been closed.