Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
It just shows there is no easy option and that teachers have given very inflated expected grades.
Absolutely. Its really the teachers fault if you think about it...
I think teachers probably inflate expected grades every year.
I think you may be mixing up the Centre Assessed Grades with the A level predicted grades. It is the former that is at issue; the latter is irrelevant to the grade. The CAG can`t be inflated every year as this is the only year this has ever been done.
This is in no way the teachers` fault. Ofqual were naive to think that, under pressure re school league tables and from parents, that teachers wouldn`t come up with very optimistic grades. If they didn`t, then their pupils would have been disadvantaged against other schools` pupils whose teachers did.
It's (mostly) not even that. Remember that a majority of the time, the CAGs and the Ofqual model agreed. A large part of the overprediction was because it's impossible to predict who will fall short on the day, even if you know that some will. Teachers can predict the most likely grade for each student and still overpredict on average.
Note that my brain is deep into the GCSE side of things rather than the A levels. My hunch is that CAGs were far more out of kilter with the algorithm against GCSEs than A levels - because teachers were already "committed" to some extent by their already predicted grades, and so any A level "over inflation" was mitigated to some extent. No predicted grades at GCSE (usually).
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
That link confirms what I said. They're able to accept more than 3200. In fact they've already sent offers to 3440 so far.
They don't offer 100% of their places to UK students. There is slack within the system to accept more.
you said over 6,000... .
That was wrong sorry, I misread a statistic. But I was right otherwise. If Oxford are instructed to take all students I'm confident they will, just as their Scottish counterparts have managed.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
Russell Group is a cutoff because they are research based universities rather than teaching based ones...
And use the Russell Group is an invitation only group but that is because it's entire point was to act as a campaign group for research led unis.
The problem is that it has now become the magic circle -
First Prize - 2.1 or 1st from Oxbridge Second Prize - 2.1 or 1st from a Russell Group uni Third Prize - a degree from somewhere else
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
Your Comprehension skills may need improvement - Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places...
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
That link confirms what I said. They're able to accept more than 3200. In fact they've already sent offers to 3440 so far.
They don't offer 100% of their places to UK students. There is slack within the system to accept more.
you said over 6,000... .
That was wrong sorry, I misread a statistic. But I was right otherwise. If Oxford are instructed to take all students I'm confident they will, just as their Scottish counterparts have managed.
Fair enough. By forced deferral to 2021 seems the only way if they do expand further...
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
There is a simple solution. Withdraw all of the grades incorrectly issued last week by a deficient Ofqual. All university place offers null and void. Reissue corrected grades. Tell everyone that its all Nicola Sturgeon's fault.
I can't help thinking that the 4 governments could perhaps have held the line if they'd all worked together. When Sturgeon folded, it was inevitable the others would have to as well.
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
No I am not saying they're equal, I am saying in my experience the people from Russell Groups don't end up being any better than at my job than those who didn't go to them.
They have been (in general) educated to a lower standard.
What that means in the really real world is of course, another matter.
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
No I am not saying they're equal, I am saying in my experience the people from Russell Groups don't end up being any better than at my job than those who didn't go to them.
They have been (in general) educated to a lower standard.
What that means in the really real world is of course, another matter.
That is what I was getting at. In the real world, it has made little difference in my experience.
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
Russell Group is a cutoff because they are research based universities rather than teaching based ones...
And use the Russell Group is an invitation only group but that is because it's entire point was to act as a campaign group for research led unis.
The problem is that it has now become the magic circle -
First Prize - 2.1 or 1st from Oxbridge Second Prize - 2.1 or 1st from a Russell Group uni Third Prize - a degree from somewhere else
Of course there's a broader debate to be had with some of our resident Comp Sci grads, as to how well your degree set you up for your career? My experience is poorly.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
That link confirms what I said. They're able to accept more than 3200. In fact they've already sent offers to 3440 so far.
They don't offer 100% of their places to UK students. There is slack within the system to accept more.
you said over 6,000... .
That was wrong sorry, I misread a statistic. But I was right otherwise. If Oxford are instructed to take all students I'm confident they will, just as their Scottish counterparts have managed.
Fair enough. By forced deferral to 2021 seems the only way if they do expand further...
Forced Deferral solves this years problem and creates another one for those currently in Year 12 who are now competing not for 3400 places but potentially 2900 as 500 have already been taken.
As I said earlier today the lack of immediate action can sometimes result in bigger problems,
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
That link confirms what I said. They're able to accept more than 3200. In fact they've already sent offers to 3440 so far.
They don't offer 100% of their places to UK students. There is slack within the system to accept more.
you said over 6,000... .
That was wrong sorry, I misread a statistic. But I was right otherwise. If Oxford are instructed to take all students I'm confident they will, just as their Scottish counterparts have managed.
Fair enough. By forced deferral to 2021 seems the only way if they do expand further...
Or via voluntary deferrals?
I never took a gap year, but if I was 18 and had a place at Oxford and was facing a fraction of the education - and experience - I'd normally expect and was offered a deferral until next year then I'd be seriously tempted.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
There is a simple solution. Withdraw all of the grades incorrectly issued last week by a deficient Ofqual. All university place offers null and void. Reissue corrected grades. Tell everyone that its all Nicola Sturgeon's fault.
I can't help thinking that the 4 governments could perhaps have held the line if they'd all worked together. When Sturgeon folded, it was inevitable the others would have to as well.
I don't think they had to, by shear weight of numbers England could have stuck it out I reckon. I would have done (With a few side tweaks) anyway.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
No, exams are the only acceptable system.
They're not happening this year though, so we need the least unacceptable system.
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
No I am not saying they're equal, I am saying in my experience the people from Russell Groups don't end up being any better than at my job than those who didn't go to them.
They have been (in general) educated to a lower standard.
What that means in the really real world is of course, another matter.
That is what I was getting at. In the real world, it has made little difference in my experience.
I accept it's anecdotal.
What people did alongside their degree used to be as important as final qualification the same could be said to a lesser degree about A Levels. I wonder if that still is the case or only when you are Tory president of the oxford union?
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
yes but Cambridge produce socially useful graduates so should get more places, whereas Oxford produce the dickheads who go in to politics and the civil service and just mess the country up.
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
As you say, the question of some places having more rigorous entry requirements can confuse matters but that is a difference in input, not output. The external examiner system was designed to ensure a First in French from one institution was the same as another.
I laughed so hard I damn near died. Sorry.
The external examiner system is supposed to help standards. It does not mean that all universities are equal in output.
That should be taken care of by the University of Bath awarding more Firsts than the University of Showers, not by their Firsts having a different value.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
yes but Cambridge produce socially useful graduates so should get more places, whereas Oxford produce the dickheads who go in to politics and the civil service and just mess the country up.
Nah, Oxford produces useful graduates such as @tlg86, and less useful ones like Boris Johnson - same as anywhere else.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
That link confirms what I said. They're able to accept more than 3200. In fact they've already sent offers to 3440 so far.
They don't offer 100% of their places to UK students. There is slack within the system to accept more.
you said over 6,000... .
That was wrong sorry, I misread a statistic. But I was right otherwise. If Oxford are instructed to take all students I'm confident they will, just as their Scottish counterparts have managed.
Fair enough. By forced deferral to 2021 seems the only way if they do expand further...
Forced Deferral solves this years problem and creates another one for those currently in Year 12 who are now competing not for 3400 places but potentially 2900 as 500 have already been taken.
As I said earlier today the lack of immediate action can sometimes result in bigger problems,
Not if they combine deferral with expansion - say, half the expansion this year, half next.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
No, exams are the only acceptable system.
They're not happening this year though, so we need the least unacceptable system.
Alternatively the government could have said that schooling and exams were going ahead, as they did in Sweden, because they would accept nothing less for our children, our future.
But that would have taken guts, courage, backbone and leadership.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
That link confirms what I said. They're able to accept more than 3200. In fact they've already sent offers to 3440 so far.
They don't offer 100% of their places to UK students. There is slack within the system to accept more.
you said over 6,000... .
That was wrong sorry, I misread a statistic. But I was right otherwise. If Oxford are instructed to take all students I'm confident they will, just as their Scottish counterparts have managed.
Fair enough. By forced deferral to 2021 seems the only way if they do expand further...
Forced Deferral solves this years problem and creates another one for those currently in Year 12 who are now competing not for 3400 places but potentially 2900 as 500 have already been taken.
As I said earlier today the lack of immediate action can sometimes result in bigger problems,
Not if they combine deferral with expansion - say, half the expansion this year, half next.
Are we going for permanent expansion or screwing over next year's cohort ?
I am not attacking Oxbridge BTW, I wish I could have gone there, I am far too thick though.
But I do think there is a lot to be said for the idea that University isn't the be all and end all. And sadly that is not accepted as much as it should be.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
No, exams are the only acceptable system.
They're not happening this year though, so we need the least unacceptable system.
Nope we need an acceptable solution that provides something that can be used given the situation we are currently in.
Centre assessed grades is just about the only option left - and in fact was the only option once Scotland decided that was their approach last Monday.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
yes but Cambridge produce socially useful graduates so should get more places, whereas Oxford produce the dickheads who go in to politics and the civil service and just mess the country up.
Nah, Oxford produces useful graduates such as @tlg86, and less useful ones like Boris Johnson - same as anywhere else.
a disproportionately large amount of MPs and senior Civil Servants went to Oxford.
Save the country, close the dump and reopen it as a Hogwarts theme park
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
Amazing that nobody thought what a desperate situation we would be in when they cried for the long lockdown of schools.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
yes but Cambridge produce socially useful graduates so should get more places, whereas Oxford produce the dickheads who go in to politics and the civil service and just mess the country up.
Nah, Oxford produces useful graduates such as @tlg86, and less useful ones like Boris Johnson - same as anywhere else.
Always hard to say, but my suspicion is that Oxford undergrads aren't much different to the Bristols, Durhams etc. In fact, for my own subject geography I think they're probably worse than some like Southampton.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
yes but Cambridge produce socially useful graduates so should get more places, whereas Oxford produce the dickheads who go in to politics and the civil service and just mess the country up.
Nah, Oxford produces useful graduates such as @tlg86, and less useful ones like Boris Johnson - same as anywhere else.
There was an interesting proposal at Oxford, back when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister.
Private College Oxford ... Using some interesting loopholes in the way that the government can control university places, Oxford was looking at create a whole new *private* college. The idea was to charge Ivy League grade fees, use the money to buy in the best teaching talent etc....
The government quashed it, IIRC by telling them privately that they would change the law too stop it.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
@Philip_Thompson spent all morning saying this isn't a problem - I'm really looking forward to his reply...
If they have more domestic students than they expected they can offer fewer places to overseas students.
If they can't do make it work then they should lose access to all government grant and other funding they are able to get as they should not be prioritising overseas money making over domestic students during a pandemic.
I believe Oxford take over 6,000 undergraduates per annum. If they can't make room for 3,900 students within that 6,000 then they have a major problem.
That link confirms what I said. They're able to accept more than 3200. In fact they've already sent offers to 3440 so far.
They don't offer 100% of their places to UK students. There is slack within the system to accept more.
you said over 6,000... .
That was wrong sorry, I misread a statistic. But I was right otherwise. If Oxford are instructed to take all students I'm confident they will, just as their Scottish counterparts have managed.
Fair enough. By forced deferral to 2021 seems the only way if they do expand further...
Forced Deferral solves this years problem and creates another one for those currently in Year 12 who are now competing not for 3400 places but potentially 2900 as 500 have already been taken.
As I said earlier today the lack of immediate action can sometimes result in bigger problems,
True, though with 4 months until the 2021 admissions interviews to plan and 12 months to implement those plans, it's surely possible to develop the equivalent of bulge classes.
Admittedly, that requires some confidence that the government can think beyond the immediate crisis...
Of course there's a broader debate to be had with some of our resident Comp Sci grads, as to how well your degree set you up for your career? My experience is poorly.
Although I work in what might broadly be called software engineering I didn't do a Comp Sci degree and have almost exclusively learnt from experience on the job.
Very little of what I use now even remotely existed when I did my degree anyway.
What I find that graduates have most difficulty with is, amazingly, in using Google to find answers to something they're struggling with, or applying a bit of logical trial and error to iterate through to a solution.
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
No I am not saying they're equal, I am saying in my experience the people from Russell Groups don't end up being any better than at my job than those who didn't go to them.
They have been (in general) educated to a lower standard.
What that means in the really real world is of course, another matter.
I'm not even sure that's true in general - I work, almost exclusively in research, at a Russell Group university. I've known very able colleagues who have switched jobs to non-Russell Group universities because they actually enjoy teaching more than research (and the associated funding pressure) and teaching (as main income source) is more valued at a lot of the old polytechnics.
For postgrad study, there's value in being at an institution at the cutting edge of research. In many undergrad courses, there may be more value in having better/better motivated teachers.
I do agree that an equivalent class of degree might mean a more able person from a Russell group compared to non-Russell group university, as the students attending the non-Russell group university will, in general, have lower ability - a 2:1 at higher admission grade university may be as indicative of ability as a 1st at one with lower admission grades.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
yes but Cambridge produce socially useful graduates so should get more places, whereas Oxford produce the dickheads who go in to politics and the civil service and just mess the country up.
Nah, Oxford produces useful graduates such as @tlg86, and less useful ones like Boris Johnson - same as anywhere else.
There was an interesting proposal at Oxford, back when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister.
Private College Oxford ... Using some interesting loopholes in the way that the government can control university places, Oxford was looking at create a whole new *private* college. The idea was to charge Ivy League grade fees, use the money to buy in the best teaching talent etc....
The government quashed it, IIRC by telling them privately that they would change the law too stop it.
That's interesting. Whilst I was at Oxford, Manchester poached two of our geography lecturers. Due to its size Manchester was able to flex its financial muscles in a similar way to that of its football clubs.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
Amazing that nobody thought what a desperate situation we would be in when they cried for the long lockdown of schools.
The use of a time machine is not an option (I explicitly said as much as I knew you would try it) - please try again
Oxbridge is obviously not all it has cracked up to be, look at the current cabinet.
The irony being the current education sec went to Bradford Poly.
University since the. Mid sixties quality engineering and life science departments in the 70’s. Now a leader in medical sciences I believe but even when I was there social sciences were a bit crap.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
Amazing that nobody thought what a desperate situation we would be in when they cried for the long lockdown of schools.
Exams should have gone ahead, particularly at A-level. Pupils are old enough for the teachers to say "Oh, you'll need to do these couple of chapters we couldn't cover" from lockdown -. say a slightly delayed June exam time.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
tell them their 4 year course is now a 3 year course and they start in 2021
In five years they deserve to lose if this carries on.
You talking about the Welsh, Scottish, NI or UK government? All have followed the same path.
How many incompetent decisions have the Tories made in the last two months alone?
I don't know. They've muddled their way through the worst pandemic in a century quite well I think and not been too stubborn to change course when mistakes are made.
I don't know why I asked you to be honest.
Me neither. I've been criticising the government on this subject and calling for a u-turn consistently have I not?
Next thing they should do is lift the cap on domestic students going to the best universities. If that makes shit universities suffer then sucks to be them, free market. They should have been less shit.
The third tier universities might be very good for all we know. The problem, as per the last thread, is employers discriminating against them. It is not as if the University of Lincoln teaches a different value of pi from Cambridge.
From personal experience of hiring people, the lower tier universities are lower tier for a reason.
Unless we want to go back to the heady days when people tried to claim that Southbank was equal to Cambridge.....
Not in my experience, job dependant though I'm sure
So you are saying that Fenland Poly *is* equal to Southbank?
Hmmmm.... No - Fenland Poly is a frightful dump.
Seriously. There is little doubt that the lower end Unis (in general) take students with lower marks, and teach them an easier syllabus.
What is unfair, is that membership of the Russell Group is the cutoff. Rather than some kind of objective assessment of quality.
No I am not saying they're equal, I am saying in my experience the people from Russell Groups don't end up being any better than at my job than those who didn't go to them.
They have been (in general) educated to a lower standard.
What that means in the really real world is of course, another matter.
I'm not even sure that's true in general - I work, almost exclusively in research, at a Russell Group university. I've known very able colleagues who have switched jobs to non-Russell Group universities because they actually enjoy teaching more than research (and the associated funding pressure) and teaching (as main income source) is more valued at a lot of the old polytechnics.
For postgrad study, there's value in being at an institution at the cutting edge of research. In many undergrad courses, there may be more value in having better/better motivated teachers.
I do agree that an equivalent class of degree might mean a more able person from a Russell group compared to non-Russell group university, as the students attending the non-Russell group university will, in general, have lower ability - a 2:1 at higher admission grade university may be as indicative of ability as a 1st at one with lower admission grades.
Also varies a lot by department/subject. There are individual departments at 'worse'/non-Russell group universities that beat the equivalent departments at more prestigious universities.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
I wholly agree - they did the same in Spain which ironically triggered the spread of the pandemic as families rushed off to second homes and students returned to hug their grandmas and pass on Covid 19! At the very least they should have continued classes for KS4 and KS5 students - could easily have been done with morning/afternoon rotas and reduced group sizes. One of the biggest mistakes made worldwide sadly with goodness knows what long-term effects on our future workers.
Good luck to the Uni Admissions Officers with this unfolding cluster...
A whole swathe of students might be back knocking on their doors saying they've now met their offer grades.... UCAS might need to be 'turned off and on again' and restarted??
That will see losers too if that happens....
I expect all the better courses are full
Oxford offered circa 3,900 for circa 3,200 places, Cambridge over-offer as they expect more to miss their grades and I make it they offered 4,701 for 2020 yet their places are less than Oxford (I think - haven't check their stats calculator for that).
Oxford are taking a record cohort of over 3,400 at last count pre this U turn.... Cambridge could be in a right pickle... Queens for example have already said they are taking 20% more than planned... forced deferrals to 2021 seems the only option i'd imagine. Screwing up next year's cohort too.
yes but Cambridge produce socially useful graduates so should get more places, whereas Oxford produce the dickheads who go in to politics and the civil service and just mess the country up.
Nah, Oxford produces useful graduates such as @tlg86, and less useful ones like Boris Johnson - same as anywhere else.
There was an interesting proposal at Oxford, back when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister.
Private College Oxford ... Using some interesting loopholes in the way that the government can control university places, Oxford was looking at create a whole new *private* college. The idea was to charge Ivy League grade fees, use the money to buy in the best teaching talent etc....
The government quashed it, IIRC by telling them privately that they would change the law too stop it.
Maybe our top universities should become postgrad only so the boffins can get on with curing cancer and translating Latin poems, and not waste their time teaching undergraduates.
Of course there's a broader debate to be had with some of our resident Comp Sci grads, as to how well your degree set you up for your career? My experience is poorly.
Although I work in what might broadly be called software engineering I didn't do a Comp Sci degree and have almost exclusively learnt from experience on the job.
Very little of what I use now even remotely existed when I did my degree anyway.
What I find that graduates have most difficulty with is, amazingly, in using Google to find answers to something they're struggling with, or applying a bit of logical trial and error to iterate through to a solution.
Well said LostPassword, I have also found the same.
I don't think the ability to be logical is something that can be taught, you either have it, or you don't (ironic).
I am under no doubt that learning the fundamentals of bubble sort has not helped my career whatsoever.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
tell them their 4 year course is now a 3 year course and they start in 2021
It already is the person I'm talking would be heading straight into year 2.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
Amazing that nobody thought what a desperate situation we would be in when they cried for the long lockdown of schools.
Exams should have gone ahead, particularly at A-level. Pupils are old enough for the teachers to say "Oh, you'll need to do these couple of chapters we couldn't cover" from lockdown -. say a slightly delayed June exam time.
I totally agree re A levels - lockdown came 2 weeks before the Easter school hols so a tiny % of the 2 years of the courses were lost.
I have a feeling this Test might be a draw . . . well done those who got on at odds over 2 on day 1. What a joke!
Yes. Bit embarrassed by my confidence they'd manage to play 350 overs.
I still think they should have. Rain is one thing, but this "bad light" issue in the daytime is an absolute farce.
There's been a lot of rain. I think it's been raining at 11am on four of the five days - so even starting at 10:00 wouldn't have helped much.
Also, it's not been the normal summer showers where it clears up quickly after the rain stops, helping to dry out the ground. I don't think bad light has lost them all that many overs. It's been desperate weather.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
Amazing that nobody thought what a desperate situation we would be in when they cried for the long lockdown of schools.
The use of a time machine is not an option (I explicitly said as much as I knew you would try it) - please try again</blockquote
No indeed but employing principle and precedent was and is an option. Has any British government allowed anything to disrupt children's education in this way before?
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
tell them their 4 year course is now a 3 year course and they start in 2021
It already is the person I'm talking would be heading straight into year 2.
then he can take another year off and go fruit picking.
According to Guido labour campaigned to abolish teacher predicted grades in 2019.
Its deeply unfair, apparently, especially to the BAME community.
Exam boards have not required predicted grades for at least 3 years. UCAS grades for university offers, however, are still required, but those are completed and sent off by November/December of yr13 anyway, well before mocks etc.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Nope it's more having futures stolen by incompetently designed algorithms that is the issue.
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
You think going on teachers' grades is an acceptable system?
goodness.
Come up with a better solution that can be used before Universities start again.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
Amazing that nobody thought what a desperate situation we would be in when they cried for the long lockdown of schools.
The use of a time machine is not an option (I explicitly said as much as I knew you would try it) - please try again
Given what we know now - it's clear that were things done differently schools could have remained open. That still wasn't true in March no matter how much you desire that it was the case.
Once again time machines were not an option, so as you don't like the solution how would you, oh so clever one, resolve the issue.
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Time for our regular reminder that almost no children have died of Covid. The latest NHS England weekly bulletin states that 20 people aged 0-19 have died after a positive Covid test in English hospitals during the entirety of the pandemic to date, and 16 of those had serious underlying health conditions.
The likelihood of a healthy child falling seriously ill from Covid is minuscule; of one actually dying, probably about the same as being struck by a lightning bolt. And still nearly all ten-and-a-half million schoolkids (the key worker offspring excepted) had to be locked up at home for half-a-year.
We must pray that another disease like Covid-19 does not afflict us in our lifetimes, but if it does then a solution to tackling it better than "shut down the whole of society and worry about how on Earth to pick up the shattered pieces later" will have to be found.
Of course there's a broader debate to be had with some of our resident Comp Sci grads, as to how well your degree set you up for your career? My experience is poorly.
Although I work in what might broadly be called software engineering I didn't do a Comp Sci degree and have almost exclusively learnt from experience on the job.
Very little of what I use now even remotely existed when I did my degree anyway.
What I find that graduates have most difficulty with is, amazingly, in using Google to find answers to something they're struggling with, or applying a bit of logical trial and error to iterate through to a solution.
Using Google surely needs some familiarity with words...... and language, you know, as in English.... or even American.
Comp Sci is surely best suited to people who use a different language, like numbers and grunts.... The sort of people that Cummings and his followers on PB are so keen to promote...
It really is amazing to see so many people who advocated the long term shut down of schools now wailing about children's futures being stolen.
Incredible really.
Time for our regular reminder that almost no children have died of Covid. The latest NHS England weekly bulletin states that 20 people aged 0-19 have died after a positive Covid test in English hospitals during the entirety of the pandemic to date, and 16 of those had serious underlying health conditions.
The likelihood of a healthy child falling seriously ill from Covid is minuscule; of one actually dying, probably about the same as being struck by a lightning bolt. And still all ten-and-a-half million schoolkids had to be locked up at home for half-a-year.
We must pray that another disease like Covid-19 does not afflict us in our lifetimes, but if it does then a solution to tackling it better than "shut down the whole of society and worry about how on Earth to pick up the shattered pieces later" will have to be found.
Indeed. How many MPs opposed or even questioned this outrageous and as far as I can tell completely unprecedented shutdown? Zip.
Now they are wailing about stealing the futures of children. What a bunch of ar$eholes
I have a feeling this Test might be a draw . . . well done those who got on at odds over 2 on day 1. What a joke!
Yes. Bit embarrassed by my confidence they'd manage to play 350 overs.
I still think they should have. Rain is one thing, but this "bad light" issue in the daytime is an absolute farce.
There's been a lot of rain. I think it's been raining at 11am on four of the five days - so even starting at 10:00 wouldn't have helped much.
Also, it's not been the normal summer showers where it clears up quickly after the rain stops, helping to dry out the ground. I don't think bad light has lost them all that many overs. It's been desperate weather.
You did seem very confident.
Glad I had the courage to stick with what i thought.
Not so glad i didnt cancel my automatic cash out though otherwise i would have been getting a much larger profit at COP.
Shouldnt grumble. Having been on the site for many many years only done 6 BETTING POSTS. I believe i have a 100% record unless anyone can remember otherwise.
Certainly been wrong about lots of things on here but not BETTING POSTS methinks
They had to clear the decks so that they get on using the schoolkids to infect each other (and hopefully not granny). The drive for backdoor herd immunity is a strong one it appears.
The daily Covid figures have been (partially) updated.
Total new deaths: 3
The UK hospital patient total is still stuck, due to lack of complete figures from all four nations since the 13th, but the English datum appears to have plateaued just below 600, which is something of a concern.
What about the 1% whose algorithm grade was HIGHER than the CAG?
They're being given the algorithm grade. So the net effect of all this is to introduce even more inflation into the system...
(Was there a model which would have been defensible? Probably. But this one was introduced with so much secrecy and initial stubbornness, and gave such dumb results in some cases, that it was indefensible.)
Solution: institute immediate national service for one year for all 18 year olds. A Level kids can retake the exams from barracks and re apply with their grades. No clash with the next year’s cohort because they too would be doing national service until age 19.
It’s as good a proposal as much else they’ve come up with.
Comments
First Prize - 2.1 or 1st from Oxbridge
Second Prize - 2.1 or 1st from a Russell Group uni
Third Prize - a degree from somewhere else
Oh and the fact it was about to sidetrack people who should really be focused on getting Schools open in September rather than a wasting time on appeal paperwork.
What that means in the really real world is of course, another matter.
I accept it's anecdotal.
As I said earlier today the lack of immediate action can sometimes result in bigger problems,
I never took a gap year, but if I was 18 and had a place at Oxford and was facing a fraction of the education - and experience - I'd normally expect and was offered a deferral until next year then I'd be seriously tempted.
goodness.
They're not happening this year though, so we need the least unacceptable system.
St Andrews starts on September 7th so you just need to a solution you can implement in 3 weeks.
Given that constraint and the slightly more fundamental one that time machines (that allow time to go backwards) do not exist what is your solution?
But that would have taken guts, courage, backbone and leadership.
I have a feeling this Test might be a draw . . . well done those who got on at odds over 2 on day 1. What a joke!
But I do think there is a lot to be said for the idea that University isn't the be all and end all. And sadly that is not accepted as much as it should be.
Centre assessed grades is just about the only option left - and in fact was the only option once Scotland decided that was their approach last Monday.
Save the country, close the dump and reopen it as a Hogwarts theme park
Private College Oxford ... Using some interesting loopholes in the way that the government can control university places, Oxford was looking at create a whole new *private* college. The idea was to charge Ivy League grade fees, use the money to buy in the best teaching talent etc....
The government quashed it, IIRC by telling them privately that they would change the law too stop it.
Admittedly, that requires some confidence that the government can think beyond the immediate crisis...
Very little of what I use now even remotely existed when I did my degree anyway.
What I find that graduates have most difficulty with is, amazingly, in using Google to find answers to something they're struggling with, or applying a bit of logical trial and error to iterate through to a solution.
For postgrad study, there's value in being at an institution at the cutting edge of research. In many undergrad courses, there may be more value in having better/better motivated teachers.
I do agree that an equivalent class of degree might mean a more able person from a Russell group compared to non-Russell group university, as the students attending the non-Russell group university will, in general, have lower ability - a 2:1 at higher admission grade university may be as indicative of ability as a 1st at one with lower admission grades.
Pupils are old enough for the teachers to say "Oh, you'll need to do these couple of chapters we couldn't cover" from lockdown -. say a slightly delayed June exam time.
At the very least they should have continued classes for KS4 and KS5 students - could easily have been done with morning/afternoon rotas and reduced group sizes. One of the biggest mistakes made worldwide sadly with goodness knows what long-term effects on our future workers.
I got average odds of 2.16 and had about £720 on in total to win circa £830 as profit.
Put an automatic cash out on at £350 profit which happened sometime on day 3
I don't think the ability to be logical is something that can be taught, you either have it, or you don't (ironic).
I am under no doubt that learning the fundamentals of bubble sort has not helped my career whatsoever.
Its deeply unfair, apparently, especially to the BAME community.
Also, it's not been the normal summer showers where it clears up quickly after the rain stops, helping to dry out the ground. I don't think bad light has lost them all that many overs. It's been desperate weather.
Once again time machines were not an option, so as you don't like the solution how would you, oh so clever one, resolve the issue.
The likelihood of a healthy child falling seriously ill from Covid is minuscule; of one actually dying, probably about the same as being struck by a lightning bolt. And still nearly all ten-and-a-half million schoolkids (the key worker offspring excepted) had to be locked up at home for half-a-year.
We must pray that another disease like Covid-19 does not afflict us in our lifetimes, but if it does then a solution to tackling it better than "shut down the whole of society and worry about how on Earth to pick up the shattered pieces later" will have to be found.
Announcement from Roger Taylor, Ofqual Chair
Right thing to do.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1295374833203781633?s=20
Comp Sci is surely best suited to people who use a different language, like numbers and grunts.... The sort of people that Cummings and his followers on PB are so keen to promote...
Now they are wailing about stealing the futures of children. What a bunch of ar$eholes
Glad I had the courage to stick with what i thought.
Not so glad i didnt cancel my automatic cash out though otherwise i would have been getting a much larger profit at COP.
Shouldnt grumble. Having been on the site for many many years only done 6 BETTING POSTS. I believe i have a 100% record unless anyone can remember otherwise.
Certainly been wrong about lots of things on here but not BETTING POSTS methinks
I'm reminded of Richard Nabavi's post about debasing the currency however.
Total new deaths: 3
The UK hospital patient total is still stuck, due to lack of complete figures from all four nations since the 13th, but the English datum appears to have plateaued just below 600, which is something of a concern.
So the net effect of all this is to introduce even more inflation into the system...
(Was there a model which would have been defensible? Probably. But this one was introduced with so much secrecy and initial stubbornness, and gave such dumb results in some cases, that it was indefensible.)
It’s as good a proposal as much else they’ve come up with.