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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour seems to have forgotten how to ‘do’ Opposition

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited August 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour seems to have forgotten how to ‘do’ Opposition

Ed Miliband is unfairly maligned. It’s true that he couldn’t eat a bacon sandwich gracefully. It’s also true that he was always a bit of a wonk and, in the testosterone-fuelled world of Westminster and electoral politics, a bit beta. Even now, his brother is shorter odds to be next Labour leader than he is (50/1 and 80/1, respectively), despite his not having been an MP for seven years, while Ed is once again in the Shadow Cabinet, albeit invisibly so.

Read the full story here

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Comments

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    First
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Excellent article from the ever-perceptive David H.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Great piece David, thanks.

    Bit unfair to say Ed is invisible. He is the Shadow Business Sec which is hardly a 24/7 frontline role when in Opposition.

    Labour will start to make serious inroads from beginning of next year imho. The Greatest Recession will be in full flow by then and ours may well be much worse than anyone else but USA. Throw in the deluded insanity of No Deal WTO Brexit and things could turn downwards for this administration very rapidly.

    There will be a reckoning.
  • Options
    That Starmer missed the open goal of entry to the UK was shocking.

    Albeit not as shocking as the government's lack of restrictions on entry followed by their encouragement to take foreign holidays.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,744
    edited August 2020
    As a floating voter I dont really want to hear too much blame for the govts handling at this stage. It is still a time of national crisis and hinting the govt is to blame and gently opposing feels far better than taking the more vocal approach suggested.

    As i see it the next election has two main options:

    1 - this government will be as incompetent as its many critics, including myself, expect. In that case, their incompetence will be obvious enough by 2024 that all Labour needs to do is offer likely competence.

    2 - the government is average or better. In that case they win re-election regardless of what Labour do.

    So Starmer, boring, grey, quiet may not be traditional opposition but strategically his approach is fine.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    "Labour – both directly and through its allies in the media – need to be making the point that things could have been much better"

    But Labour won't making those points AT THE TIME. They have had no smart point to make ahead of events unfolding. They are instead trying to make capital out of looking wise after the event. That will play with some. But for others it looks like the lowest type of political opportunism. For example, the Govt. would have been eviscerated on the crap app - if Labour had been half as smart as a bunch of the commentators on here about that looming fiasco - way ahead of it imploding.

    And here is a perfect example of why Labour aren't steaming ahead in the polls on the back of taking down Boris on Covid:

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/05/dodds-cant-run-from-her-lockdown-record/
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited August 2020
    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672

    That Starmer missed the open goal of entry to the UK was shocking.

    Albeit not as shocking as the government's lack of restrictions on entry followed by their encouragement to take foreign holidays.

    Yes - this along with stay die at home to Protect the NHS are two key areas they should be pushing hard upon. From today until 2025.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    The predictable failure of the forensic approach. Lawyers are about (and only about) proving that point 17a of their opponent's case is wrong, then point 17b, and so on, when the required message is: everything about you is wrong, and this is how to do it right.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    "Labour – both directly and through its allies in the media – need to be making the point that things could have been much better"

    But Labour won't making those points AT THE TIME. They have had no smart point to make ahead of events unfolding. They are instead trying to make capital out of looking wise after the event. That will play with some. But for others it looks like the lowest type of political opportunism. For example, the Govt. would have been eviscerated on the crap app - if Labour had been half as smart as a bunch of the commentators on here about that looming fiasco - way ahead of it imploding.

    And here is a perfect example of why Labour aren't steaming ahead in the polls on the back of taking down Boris on Covid:

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/05/dodds-cant-run-from-her-lockdown-record/

    She's hardly a household name like the King of Lockdown Bandits - Cummings. Johndson's ratings began to collapse after he decided to ignore his trips
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    Assume it will be publishing of exam results debacle, already touting that millions have been downgraded.
  • Options
    Sir Keir has a great opportunity to set the agenda next week.

    This is a bloody scandal.

    https://twitter.com/LordCFalconer/status/1291976287188324353
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    The injustice on Thursday will be on an individual level, overall the marks will be the same as previous years, despite missing a term of work. It all depends on how well teachers have predicted and ranked their candidates.

    Going with the teachers predictions may have inflated grades, but also would have filled the Universities for the autumn, helping their finances as well as minimising NEETS. Not a perfect solution but a pragmatic one.

    Of course, if Gove and Cummings hadn't abolished AS levels, and modular exams a few years back, there would have been a much more solid and objective base for A level results...
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    A good article as always, though I believe David understates the extent to which the Covid crisis continues to override everything else. At this time the electorate is not likely to be receptive to other messages - other than when serious mistakes have clearly been made. Starmer has put the Government on the defensive in relation to Care Homes and brought about U-Turns on policies such as entry of Care Workers into UK. The polls mean little at this stage and many are like to respond to surveys as if being asked 'How did you vote at the last GE?'. I recall too that in the Parliament elected in June 1987 the Tories remained ahead until Spring 1989.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Ed M was ok. Sure percentage wise his GE result was not great, but he looked and sounded more of a leader and he at least went in with prospects, not relying on a sudden surge to make up for years of incompetence.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode due to the huge number of resits, far beyond the system's capacity.

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    I'm not sure that encouraging Labour further down the path of unconstrained moaning is really ideal. One of Corbyn's most unappealing tendencies was that every time he spoke about Britain he presented it as a place of unrelenting poverty, misery, hopelessness, and despair, whereas that's simply not the case - it rings false to too many people, and turns off all but the already devoted with its grinding pessimism.

    Dispelling the impression of being a party of incessant whiners would do their image a world of good. Why don't Labour figures devise actual practical policies - in advance, please, Captain Hindsight! - that would clearly set out what Labour would do differently. For example: 'Instituting effective contact tracing covering the majority of cases would require us to recruit x people and spend y money in z timeframe. This is how we would implement it, and here are the pros and cons of our policy'.

    Even I would find it difficult to criticize that approach - so why don't they do it?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    Imperial Master Sunak jumps the queue leaving locals stranded!

    The Conservative’s Islands Campaign continued today with Chancellor Sunak avoiding those nasty urban Scots and following the PM’s strategy, to avoid getting shouted at by locals.

    Yes Bute were caught off-guard at first but rallied to send him back homeward to think again of becoming PM.

    In true nasty party style, his motorcade jumped the queue leaving locals stranded. A source told us that his car had a bumper sticker reading: ‘Eat my dust, peasants!‘

    There is of course irony in his visiting Rothesay, a placed which welcomed more Syrian refugees than his constituents would have allowed.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:

    Ed M was ok. Sure percentage wise his GE result was not great, but he looked and sounded more of a leader and he at least went in with prospects, not relying on a sudden surge to make up for years of incompetence.

    He looked much less of a PM than Starmer already does.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    justin124 said:

    A good article as always, though I believe David understates the extent to which the Covid crisis continues to override everything else. At this time the electorate is not likely to be receptive to other messages - other than when serious mistakes have clearly been made. Starmer has put the Government on the defensive in relation to Care Homes and brought about U-Turns on policies such as entry of Care Workers into UK. The polls mean little at this stage and many are like to respond to surveys as if being asked 'How did you vote at the last GE?'. I recall too that in the Parliament elected in June 1987 the Tories remained ahead until Spring 1989.

    The collapse of Johnson's approval and best PM ratings are vindication enough for Stamer's strategy. The PM is now a discredited figure.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718

    "Labour – both directly and through its allies in the media – need to be making the point that things could have been much better"

    But Labour won't making those points AT THE TIME. They have had no smart point to make ahead of events unfolding. They are instead trying to make capital out of looking wise after the event. That will play with some. But for others it looks like the lowest type of political opportunism. For example, the Govt. would have been eviscerated on the crap app - if Labour had been half as smart as a bunch of the commentators on here about that looming fiasco - way ahead of it imploding.

    And here is a perfect example of why Labour aren't steaming ahead in the polls on the back of taking down Boris on Covid:

    https://order-order.com/2020/08/05/dodds-cant-run-from-her-lockdown-record/

    Labour`s attack on the government over this has always been a combination of hindsight and party-political opportunism. It`s hard to close down a liberal democracy.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Firstly, Labour needs to be stating not just that things are a mess but why the government is at fault for them being a mess. Just because Britain has one of the worst excess death figures from Covid-19 and one of the deeper recessions, that doesn’t mean people will necessarily blame the government.

    I think this is a very important point. While I think they actually will blame the government to some degree, in so doing it does not automatically follow that they will reward Labour, or at least reward then enough.

    No matter how bad things get, the government could still eke out a win if the alternative does not make a good case both for why the government is at fault, and why they would do a better job - and merely stating you would is not enough, you need that simple messaging David talks about, if possible which implies you have an idea how to fix things without being specific.
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    kle4 said:

    Ed M was ok. Sure percentage wise his GE result was not great, but he looked and sounded more of a leader and he at least went in with prospects, not relying on a sudden surge to make up for years of incompetence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/11/milifan-prime-minister-ed-miliband
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    The school debacle will I think have a lot of cut through. I don't have kids but huge numbers do and others are a lot more sappy about kids than I am, so a clearly cocked up response will strike a chord. That it hinges on technical issues will make all the easier to assume simpler, better responses were indeed possible, and so hit the government hard.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    kle4 said:

    Ed M was ok. Sure percentage wise his GE result was not great, but he looked and sounded more of a leader and he at least went in with prospects, not relying on a sudden surge to make up for years of incompetence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/11/milifan-prime-minister-ed-miliband
    No, that was insane.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited August 2020

    justin124 said:

    A good article as always, though I believe David understates the extent to which the Covid crisis continues to override everything else. At this time the electorate is not likely to be receptive to other messages - other than when serious mistakes have clearly been made. Starmer has put the Government on the defensive in relation to Care Homes and brought about U-Turns on policies such as entry of Care Workers into UK. The polls mean little at this stage and many are like to respond to surveys as if being asked 'How did you vote at the last GE?'. I recall too that in the Parliament elected in June 1987 the Tories remained ahead until Spring 1989.

    The collapse of Johnson's approval and best PM ratings are vindication enough for Stamer's strategy. The PM is now a discredited figure.
    Boris was never credited by the people you say he is now discredited by.

    People like yourself. You voted to put an anti-semite in Number 10 rather than Boris. And Covid wasn't an argument you can cling to as validation of that decision.
  • Options
    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    The injustice on Thursday will be on an individual level, overall the marks will be the same as previous years, despite missing a term of work. It all depends on how well teachers have predicted and ranked their candidates.

    Going with the teachers predictions may have inflated grades, but also would have filled the Universities for the autumn, helping their finances as well as minimising NEETS. Not a perfect solution but a pragmatic one.

    Of course, if Gove and Cummings hadn't abolished AS levels, and modular exams a few years back, there would have been a much more solid and objective base for A level results...
    The Universities will fill their places, from the top down... Oxbridge already saying they will lower entry requirements, dressed up as helping pupils from poorer areas... it’ll be the ex-polys and HE colleges without research that will really struggle... of course, a student from England doesn’t pay what a student from China would have done...

    Sixth forms will use teacher grades when deciding entries, suspect Colleges will too...

    The big losers will be the Tabatha and the Tarquins who were expecting a full set of nines or A*s, their parents having spent £££££££ school and/or tuition fees... denied by the wicked algorithm, Daddy and the School Headmaster have already instructed lawyers according to the Times this morning...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    New Scottish Tory leader demands Army come to Aberdeen to aid coronavirus testing. Even though army units are already here. Finger...on...the...pulse!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    Rexel56 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    The injustice on Thursday will be on an individual level, overall the marks will be the same as previous years, despite missing a term of work. It all depends on how well teachers have predicted and ranked their candidates.

    Going with the teachers predictions may have inflated grades, but also would have filled the Universities for the autumn, helping their finances as well as minimising NEETS. Not a perfect solution but a pragmatic one.

    Of course, if Gove and Cummings hadn't abolished AS levels, and modular exams a few years back, there would have been a much more solid and objective base for A level results...
    The Universities will fill their places, from the top down... Oxbridge already saying they will lower entry requirements, dressed up as helping pupils from poorer areas... it’ll be the ex-polys and HE colleges without research that will really struggle... of course, a student from England doesn’t pay what a student from China would have done...

    Sixth forms will use teacher grades when deciding entries, suspect Colleges will too...

    The big losers will be the Tabatha and the Tarquins who were expecting a full set of nines or A*s, their parents having spent £££££££ school and/or tuition fees... denied by the wicked algorithm, Daddy and the School Headmaster have already instructed lawyers according to the Times this morning...
    But that’s the point. If small cohorts are exempted from the algorithm, private schools will get what they predicted.

    It’s bright children in weaker state schools who will be punished by this system. Like, for example, the children of voters in the so called Red Wall.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode due to the huge number of resits, far beyond the system's capacity.

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    Thank you.

    If the teachers' grades had been accepted, would the headlines instead have been "Massive Grade Inflation"?

    At least OFQUAL have published their methodology before the results come out, unlike the SQA who did it after.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    edited August 2020
    Rexel56 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    The injustice on Thursday will be on an individual level, overall the marks will be the same as previous years, despite missing a term of work. It all depends on how well teachers have predicted and ranked their candidates.

    Going with the teachers predictions may have inflated grades, but also would have filled the Universities for the autumn, helping their finances as well as minimising NEETS. Not a perfect solution but a pragmatic one.

    Of course, if Gove and Cummings hadn't abolished AS levels, and modular exams a few years back, there would have been a much more solid and objective base for A level results...
    The Universities will fill their places, from the top down...

    The big losers will be the Tabatha and the Tarquins who were expecting a full set of nines or A*s, their parents having spent £££££££ school and/or tuition fees... denied by the wicked algorithm, Daddy and the School Headmaster have already instructed lawyers according to the Times this morning...
    Not sure that Unis will fill there places, not least as deferrals are likely to be up. Also courses are not number restricted for candidates with ABB grades.

    As @ydoethur pointed out, it will be the private school kids who get the teachers grade predictions as marks because of class sizes. It will be the state school kids that are downgraded and tend to be under predicted at the top end too, as I see from Medical School Entrance.

    Worth noting that it isn't just kids and parents that are up in arms, but also very many proud doting grandparents, of a Tory demographic.

    Gove and Cummings set this heffalump trap, then walked onto it anyway.
  • Options

    justin124 said:

    A good article as always, though I believe David understates the extent to which the Covid crisis continues to override everything else. At this time the electorate is not likely to be receptive to other messages - other than when serious mistakes have clearly been made. Starmer has put the Government on the defensive in relation to Care Homes and brought about U-Turns on policies such as entry of Care Workers into UK. The polls mean little at this stage and many are like to respond to surveys as if being asked 'How did you vote at the last GE?'. I recall too that in the Parliament elected in June 1987 the Tories remained ahead until Spring 1989.

    The collapse of Johnson's approval and best PM ratings are vindication enough for Stamer's strategy. The PM is now a discredited figure.
    Boris was never credited by the people you say he is now discredited by.

    People like yourself. You'd voted to put an anti-semite in Number 10 rather than Boris. And Covid wasn't an argument you can cling to as validation of that decision.
    IIRC Mike voted Labour in 2017 as well.

    Like more than a few LibDems Mike has been upset since the 2015 election.

    He really believed in LibDem incumbency votes and that tripling student fees was going to be a vote winner for the LibDems.

    The raised hopes of the summer of 2019 then being smashed made things worse.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode due to the huge number of resits, far beyond the system's capacity.

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    Thank you.

    If the teachers' grades had been accepted, would the headlines instead have been "Massive Grade Inflation"?

    At least OFQUAL have published their methodology before the results come out, unlike the SQA who did it after.
    How about, ‘if the government had come up with a sensible process at first, rather than through random press releases based on a lack of understanding of what was involved, we wouldn’t have this clusterfuck?’

    It was blindingly obvious at thetime to anyone with an IQ above room temperature that there were better alternatives. The government deliberately chose one that was always bound to lead to this problem, and then appear to have discarded it in favour of a much worse one.
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    justin124 said:

    A good article as always, though I believe David understates the extent to which the Covid crisis continues to override everything else. At this time the electorate is not likely to be receptive to other messages - other than when serious mistakes have clearly been made. Starmer has put the Government on the defensive in relation to Care Homes and brought about U-Turns on policies such as entry of Care Workers into UK. The polls mean little at this stage and many are like to respond to surveys as if being asked 'How did you vote at the last GE?'. I recall too that in the Parliament elected in June 1987 the Tories remained ahead until Spring 1989.

    The collapse of Johnson's approval and best PM ratings are vindication enough for Stamer's strategy. The PM is now a discredited figure.
    Boris was never credited by the people you say he is now discredited by.

    People like yourself. You voted to put an anti-semite in Number 10 rather than Boris. And Covid wasn't an argument you can cling to as validation of that decision.
    Are you trying to say that Corbyn voters may not be the most, er, credible judges of whether or not a political figure has been totally discredited?

    Surely not...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    So you were also happy with them raising a significant number of grades based on a mathematical model from a 23 year old research paper?
  • Options
    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    I wasn’t aware of the small cohort being defined as 5, though was aware that teacher grades would apply where there isn’t a statistically valid comparison with previous years. Take your point about that favouring private schools at A Level. Brighter children at weaker schools should be fine unless, of course, they are exceptionally brighter and lie outside the progress of pupils in previous years - in which case I would expect a University to still take them, particularly if GCSE grades had been exceptional... the pupil who will miss out is the one predicted for, say, an A* in a school that hasn’t had an A* pupil in that subject for years... but would still expect them to get into their Uni of choice.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode due to the huge number of resits, far beyond the system's capacity.

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    I`ve read the tes article that you link to. Can`t be true, surely? Ignoring teacher assessed grades? The Ofqual spokesperson seems to deny this half way down the article, though. What is going on?
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode due to the huge number of resits, far beyond the system's capacity.

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    Thank you.

    If the teachers' grades had been accepted, would the headlines instead have been "Massive Grade Inflation"?

    At least OFQUAL have published their methodology before the results come out, unlike the SQA who did it after.
    How about, ‘if the government had come up with a sensible process at first, rather than through random press releases based on a lack of understanding of what was involved, we wouldn’t have this clusterfuck?’

    It was blindingly obvious at thetime to anyone with an IQ above room temperature that there were better alternatives. The government deliberately chose one that was always bound to lead to this problem, and then appear to have discarded it in favour of a much worse one.
    Would a sensible process have involved teacher grade expectations? If it had, how should we seek to make sure the grades awarded this year were broadly similar to those awarded in previous years?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Scott_xP said:
    Nations don't cooperate unless they are joined in a political union? That'll be news to a lot of people.

    If the specific request is laughable that's one thing, but the implication seems to be that cooperation among sovereign entities is either weak or cause for hilarity. Nonsense designed to make people feel superior in other words.
  • Options
    Keir would have won the 2017 election on Ed's manifesto, or even Corbyn's
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    So you were also happy with them raising a significant number of grades based on a mathematical model from a 23 year old research paper?
    They can do what what they have to, its not an easy situation.

    But the incessant self-serving whine ** from teachers does not impress.

    Especially after they have exposed themselves as cheats and liars by massively over predicting grades.

    Now I'm sure that you will say that you personally do not over-predict grades.

    In which case that should make you direct your abuse at the many teachers who do.

    ** Reminiscent of the incessant self-serving whine in 2012 when 20+ years of grade inflation was brought to an end.
  • Options
    Frankly it's nice to have more than just me thinking Labour might actually form the next government, always nice to have friends
  • Options
    Blah I predict this schools thing goes nowhere. Nothing really seems to dampen the Tory lead, I think only Brexit being a disaster will do that
  • Options

    Keir would have won the 2017 election on Ed's manifesto, or even Corbyn's

    He's such a political titan he missed the open goal of unrestricted entry to the UK during a global pandemic.

    And then missed the imbecility of the government encouraging foreign holidays during a global pandemic.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode due to the huge number of resits, far beyond the system's capacity.

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    Thank you.

    If the teachers' grades had been accepted, would the headlines instead have been "Massive Grade Inflation"?

    At least OFQUAL have published their methodology before the results come out, unlike the SQA who did it after.
    How about, ‘if the government had come up with a sensible process at first, rather than through random press releases based on a lack of understanding of what was involved, we wouldn’t have this clusterfuck?’

    It was blindingly obvious at thetime to anyone with an IQ above room temperature that there were better alternatives. The government deliberately chose one that was always bound to lead to this problem, and then appear to have discarded it in favour of a much worse one.
    Would a sensible process have involved teacher grade expectations? If it had, how should we seek to make sure the grades awarded this year were broadly similar to those awarded in previous years?
    Well, I dunno. How about asking them to submit, y’know, some actual evidence?

    So if I submit my ranking, I also submit evidence of work graded at A, B, C, D etc? So they know whether I’m getting it about right? And if not, adjustments can be made.

    And that could be marked by, well, by examiners maybe? You know, those people who mark literally millions of fecking script every year?

    Actually, I think the biggest mistake was to make too early a call on cancelling exams. But that’s another story.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
    I was saying last night about how I believed the exams had recently changed and thus you couldn’t directly compare previous results. I was told I was wrong - I’m glad I wasn’t.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    So you were also happy with them raising a significant number of grades based on a mathematical model from a 23 year old research paper?
    They can do what what they have to, its not an easy situation.

    But the incessant self-serving whine ** from teachers does not impress.

    Especially after they have exposed themselves as cheats and liars by massively over predicting grades.

    Now I'm sure that you will say that you personally do not over-predict grades.

    In which case that should make you direct your abuse at the many teachers who do.

    ** Reminiscent of the incessant self-serving whine in 2012 when 20+ years of grade inflation was brought to an end.
    So you’re quite happy about poor children being clobbered by an algorithm that isn’t valid run by a bunch of failed civil servants who have repeatedly demonstrated over many years they haven’t a fucking clue what they’re doing?

    How very revealing.

    Again, though, you miss the point, possibly wilfully, that they have only used data from teachers in a small minority of cases. So your criticism doesn’t even work.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Blah I predict this schools thing goes nowhere. Nothing really seems to dampen the Tory lead, I think only Brexit being a disaster will do that

    No it won’t they will believe that we have a world beating deal and any problems are either down to covid or the evil EU.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
    Whereas in reality there are grades from previous years:

    The proportion of students achieving the top grades at A-level has fallen to its lowest level for more than a decade, this year's results show.

    This year some 25.5% got an A grade or higher - the lowest level since 2007 when it was 25.3%.

    Girls narrowly reclaimed the lead from boys, with 25.5% achieving A* and A grades compared with 25.4% of boys.

    The overall pass rate remains the same as last year at 97.6% for students in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

    So what we'll be able to do next week is compare the grades awarded with what happened in previous years.

    And then compare the grades awarded with the teacher predicted grades.

    Now which do you think will be the closest:

    2019 grades compared with 2020 grades or 2019 grades versus 2020 teacher predicted grades ?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode due to the huge number of resits, far beyond the system's capacity.

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    I`ve read the tes article that you link to. Can`t be true, surely? Ignoring teacher assessed grades? The Ofqual spokesperson seems to deny this half way down the article, though. What is going on?
    OFQUAL, like the SQA are flailing. They got the whole thing wrong from the off and are now looking for scapegoats.

    Unfortunately this story means that whatever happens the results this year are completely discredited.

    Which means there will be huge pressure on the system in the resits in October. Possibly fatal pressure. Markers will have full timetables and facilities will be at full stretch.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
    Whereas in reality there are grades from previous years:

    The proportion of students achieving the top grades at A-level has fallen to its lowest level for more than a decade, this year's results show.

    This year some 25.5% got an A grade or higher - the lowest level since 2007 when it was 25.3%.

    Girls narrowly reclaimed the lead from boys, with 25.5% achieving A* and A grades compared with 25.4% of boys.

    The overall pass rate remains the same as last year at 97.6% for students in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

    So what we'll be able to do next week is compare the grades awarded with what happened in previous years.

    And then compare the grades awarded with the teacher predicted grades.

    Now which do you think will be the closest:

    2019 grades compared with 2020 grades or 2019 grades versus 2020 teacher predicted grades ?
    One year isn’t sufficient for a dataset.

    The longest stretch you could have for A-level is History, at four years. Some subjects, for example, Economics, only one.

    At GCSE, almost all subjects will have only one or two years of data. You cannot use that as a dataset. Not with any credibility, anyway.

    Honestly, do you work for the DfE?
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Nations don't cooperate unless they are joined in a political union? That'll be news to a lot of people.

    If the specific request is laughable that's one thing, but the implication seems to be that cooperation among sovereign entities is either weak or cause for hilarity. Nonsense designed to make people feel superior in other words.
    People trafficking is a particularly disgusting crime. I find it odd that anyone who claims a moral compass would laud Macron for turning a blind eye to it happening on French soil, when it would be trivial to disrupt the network and arrest the perpetrators. He chooses not to because it moves a particularly thorny problem to the Brits, screw the human consequences.

    But then again Brexit really did send a lot of people over the edge of sanity. When you can find a tangential reason to make a snide and superior comment about Brexit who cares about the crimes of people traffickers.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    So you were also happy with them raising a significant number of grades based on a mathematical model from a 23 year old research paper?
    They can do what what they have to, its not an easy situation.

    But the incessant self-serving whine ** from teachers does not impress.

    Especially after they have exposed themselves as cheats and liars by massively over predicting grades.

    Now I'm sure that you will say that you personally do not over-predict grades.

    In which case that should make you direct your abuse at the many teachers who do.

    ** Reminiscent of the incessant self-serving whine in 2012 when 20+ years of grade inflation was brought to an end.
    So you’re quite happy about poor children being clobbered by an algorithm that isn’t valid run by a bunch of failed civil servants who have repeatedly demonstrated over many years they haven’t a fucking clue what they’re doing?

    How very revealing.

    Again, though, you miss the point, possibly wilfully, that they have only used data from teachers in a small minority of cases. So your criticism doesn’t even work.
    Stop frothing, you're not in class now.

    I'm no more a supporter of the education bureaucracy than I am of other government bureaucracies.

    But let me ask you a question.

    Given that last year over 97% of A levels were passes and over 25% were A grades what do you think this year's results should and will be.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
    Whereas in reality there are grades from previous years:

    The proportion of students achieving the top grades at A-level has fallen to its lowest level for more than a decade, this year's results show.

    This year some 25.5% got an A grade or higher - the lowest level since 2007 when it was 25.3%.

    Girls narrowly reclaimed the lead from boys, with 25.5% achieving A* and A grades compared with 25.4% of boys.

    The overall pass rate remains the same as last year at 97.6% for students in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

    So what we'll be able to do next week is compare the grades awarded with what happened in previous years.

    And then compare the grades awarded with the teacher predicted grades.

    Now which do you think will be the closest:

    2019 grades compared with 2020 grades or 2019 grades versus 2020 teacher predicted grades ?
    One year isn’t sufficient for a dataset.

    The longest stretch you could have for A-level is History, at four years. Some subjects, for example, Economics, only one.

    At GCSE, almost all subjects will have only one or two years of data. You cannot use that as a dataset. Not with any credibility, anyway.

    Honestly, do you work for the DfE?
    In 2019 97.6% of A levels were passes and 25.5% were A grades.

    What do you think this year's results should and will be ?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,219

    kinabalu said:

    MJW said:

    kle4 said:

    My browser for some reason recommened an article from a website I'd never heard of before, which had a rather peculiar premise about 'How Corbyn unmasked comedy'.

    It seems to be saying tha anti-establishmentism is the key to comedy, and because some famous comedians and comedy programmes disliked Corbyn or did such things as 'blamed Corbyn for Johnson’s victory without taking responsibility for helping Johnson establish his harmless clown persona', that means they were on the same side as 'the establisment'. It calls out Charlie Brooker for a bit on the Corbyn-Branson row which apparently included far more time attacking Corbyn than Branson and didn't consider corporate interests (that Corbyn was indeed wrong about what he claimed I guess is not of relevance).

    https://www.redpepper.org.uk/how-corbyn-unmasked-comedy/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

    Blaming Corbyn for losing an election? Perish the thought. Apparently comedians are are supposed to be political radicals at all times. It's silly of political conservatives to moan that there's too much left wing comedy out there, without Corbynites also now suggesting the comedy establishment is not doing its job because they mocked the great man. (Ed M didn't get it easy either of course).

    Onthe other hand, the article itself was therefore of great comedic value.

    As we are seeing with the laughable conspiracies around the 'Labour Report' one of the key problems with Corbynism is that it has no safety valve of self-doubt or ability to admit its own failings, as it is predicated on the man and his supporters being uniquely virtuous. Otherwise, what is the point? If you admit nuance and the validity of different views as reasonably held and having their merits within Labour's tradition, why put forward someone the public hate, who even he would admit isn't exactly a natural in the role of leader? Why put up with the ossuary he hangs his clothes in or evidence of managerial incompetence? It only makes sense if he and you have hit upon something uniquely virtuous and everyone else is a nefarious Blairite/Tory acting out of venality and malice.

    So comedians must be to blame, not Corbyn. Or Jews. Or Labour officials. Or Laura Kuenssberg, Countdown hosts, anyone who doesn't see the unique virtues of the man or his words must be a bad actor. It's a cultish creed Labour need to stamp out and quarantine itself from as it's just so dangerous - not initially as they have power over very little and are reduced to attacking minor celebrities - but as it rots the brain and would cause huge problems were it to be over something serious where errors had been made it was impossible to reasonably course correct without blaming some conspiracy.
    Thank you for this entertaining mix of projection and amateur psychiatry. Now here is what actually happened and why -

    In 2015 in a climate favourable to re-election the party suppressed its radicalism - in both content and messaging - for fear of being rogered by the tory press and (linked) of spooking the denizens of Middle England.

    Result - a Conservative majority government. Reaction - Fuck it then. Let's stop poncing around. Let's drop the timidity. It's sterile and it's getting us nowhere in any case. We'll shift left. Elect a properly socialist leader and run on a radical platform. No apologies for it. Give the voters the choice and see what happens.

    What did happen? - Another loss but close and a better performance than achieved under the previous 2 leaders. And this despite Jeremy Corbyn being a sub-optimal PM candidate on a personal level (deficiency of brain power).

    Moral - The left nearly won a GE with a poor leader. With better packaging we can do so one day soon.
    Labour didn't lose the 2015 election, particularly in England. They actually had a net gain IN ENGLAND of 4 seats. It was the collapse of the LD's, significantly, but by no means exclusively to the Tories, that put Cameron back in No 10, albeit with a small overall majority than the Coalition had had. It was the rise in the SNP vote that did for Labour.
    Milliband should have stayed as leader.
    I liked - and like - him but I think he had to go. That 2015 result was such a terrible blow.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,952
    kle4 said:

    the implication seems to be that cooperation among sovereign entities is either weak or cause for hilarity.

    No

    The cause for hilarity is that we had the cooperation.

    Priti Patel campaigned to abandon that cooperation.

    She is now whining about needing cooperation.

    The hilarity is that the Brexiteers fucked up. Again.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    So you were also happy with them raising a significant number of grades based on a mathematical model from a 23 year old research paper?
    They can do what what they have to, its not an easy situation.

    But the incessant self-serving whine ** from teachers does not impress.

    Especially after they have exposed themselves as cheats and liars by massively over predicting grades.

    Now I'm sure that you will say that you personally do not over-predict grades.

    In which case that should make you direct your abuse at the many teachers who do.

    ** Reminiscent of the incessant self-serving whine in 2012 when 20+ years of grade inflation was brought to an end.
    So you’re quite happy about poor children being clobbered by an algorithm that isn’t valid run by a bunch of failed civil servants who have repeatedly demonstrated over many years they haven’t a fucking clue what they’re doing?

    How very revealing.

    Again, though, you miss the point, possibly wilfully, that they have only used data from teachers in a small minority of cases. So your criticism doesn’t even work.
    Stop frothing, you're not in class now.

    I'm no more a supporter of the education bureaucracy than I am of other government bureaucracies.

    But let me ask you a question.

    Given that last year over 97% of A levels were passes and over 25% were A grades what do you think this year's results should and will be.
    OK, I will answer.

    My very distinct impression, and this impression is backed by a number of conversations I have had, is that this year‘s cohort were rather abler than last year’s. Last year, I had around 25% at 7+. Given the quality of the students I had, and the quality of my own teaching, that would normally be nearer 50%. Anecdotal I know, but there was reason to expect a rise before the pandemic hit.

    That is compounded by the fact that teachers have now a little time to get used to the new exams, and the marking criteria has finally stabilised. So the delivery of the courses has improved substantially.

    So it doesn’t surprise me that grades were up 10% on teacher predictions than on last year. In fact, it suggests that probably they were quite realistic.

    Unless we had ten to fifteen years of data to draw on, it’s not possible to model out background noise. That’s what they’ve tried to do and that’s what’s going to get them into trouble.

    You might argue, with some justice, that DfE requirements and the cowardice of Gove mean that grades are normally standardised from year to year anyway. True to an extent. But that would only be valid if you could expect the school cohorts to be exactly consistent from year to year, which is clearly a nonsense. Otherwise, you would expect abler students in the cohort to attend different schools so there could be very wide variation from year to year. This method has put in place a wallet lottery.

    Does that answer your question?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,219
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Unfortunately, you and by extension the Labour left are drawing the wrong moral.

    Corbyn nearly beat Theresa May, who was determined to do her best to spook everyone who wasn't a hardcore Conservative voter. Result, the opposition rallied behind Labour in a bid to reduce her majority, thinking that as Corbyn had no chance of winning it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Or let me put it to you another way. When standing on a basically similar manifesto, against a much weaker leader, who had no policy platform and who had just been found guilty of misusing a prerogative power in the courts - Labour lost horrendously badly. Their worst result, indeed, since 1935.

    The moral of this story is that people are only willing to vote for far left policies when there is no chance of them winning. Therefore, to win, ditch the far left policies based on drug-addled dogmatism and try to come up with a vaguely realistic and costed policy agenda.

    It is quite significant that in the early stages of the 2017 campaign the Tory strategists identified a number of seats that they failed to take then, but which did fall in 2019 - Bolsover and West Bromwich West, for example.

    The British Election Study in 2017 found no evidence that people voted Labour because they thought they had no chance of winning. It's a myth.

    Labour stayed at about 40% in the polls from GE17 until well into 2019.

    Johnson and Get Brexit Done were (sadly) a potent electoral combination. I dislike both but one has to face facts.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unfortunately, you and by extension the Labour left are drawing the wrong moral.

    Corbyn nearly beat Theresa May, who was determined to do her best to spook everyone who wasn't a hardcore Conservative voter. Result, the opposition rallied behind Labour in a bid to reduce her majority, thinking that as Corbyn had no chance of winning it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Or let me put it to you another way. When standing on a basically similar manifesto, against a much weaker leader, who had no policy platform and who had just been found guilty of misusing a prerogative power in the courts - Labour lost horrendously badly. Their worst result, indeed, since 1935.

    The moral of this story is that people are only willing to vote for far left policies when there is no chance of them winning. Therefore, to win, ditch the far left policies based on drug-addled dogmatism and try to come up with a vaguely realistic and costed policy agenda.

    It is quite significant that in the early stages of the 2017 campaign the Tory strategists identified a number of seats that they failed to take then, but which did fall in 2019 - Bolsover and West Bromwich West, for example.

    The British Election Study in 2017 found no evidence that people voted Labour because they thought they had no chance of winning. It's a myth.

    Labour stayed at about 40% in the polls from GE17 until well into 2019.

    Johnson and Get Brexit Done were (sadly) a potent electoral combination. I dislike both but one has to face facts.
    But you’re saying you can win on a hard left manifesto - which has happened once in the last 120 years, in 1945. And it’s not as though it hasn’t been repeatedly offered.

    That’s a fact you have to face, but although Starmer is facing it I’m not sure a Labour are.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MJW said:

    kle4 said:

    My browser for some reason recommened an article from a website I'd never heard of before, which had a rather peculiar premise about 'How Corbyn unmasked comedy'.

    It seems to be saying tha anti-establishmentism is the key to comedy, and because some famous comedians and comedy programmes disliked Corbyn or did such things as 'blamed Corbyn for Johnson’s victory without taking responsibility for helping Johnson establish his harmless clown persona', that means they were on the same side as 'the establisment'. It calls out Charlie Brooker for a bit on the Corbyn-Branson row which apparently included far more time attacking Corbyn than Branson and didn't consider corporate interests (that Corbyn was indeed wrong about what he claimed I guess is not of relevance).

    https://www.redpepper.org.uk/how-corbyn-unmasked-comedy/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

    Blaming Corbyn for losing an election? Perish the thought. Apparently comedians are are supposed to be political radicals at all times. It's silly of political conservatives to moan that there's too much left wing comedy out there, without Corbynites also now suggesting the comedy establishment is not doing its job because they mocked the great man. (Ed M didn't get it easy either of course).

    Onthe other hand, the article itself was therefore of great comedic value.

    As we are seeing with the laughable conspiracies around the 'Labour Report' one of the key problems with Corbynism is that it has no safety valve of self-doubt or ability to admit its own failings, as it is predicated on the man and his supporters being uniquely virtuous. Otherwise, what is the point? If you admit nuance and the validity of different views as reasonably held and having their merits within Labour's tradition, why put forward someone the public hate, who even he would admit isn't exactly a natural in the role of leader? Why put up with the ossuary he hangs his clothes in or evidence of managerial incompetence? It only makes sense if he and you have hit upon something uniquely virtuous and everyone else is a nefarious Blairite/Tory acting out of venality and malice.

    So comedians must be to blame, not Corbyn. Or Jews. Or Labour officials. Or Laura Kuenssberg, Countdown hosts, anyone who doesn't see the unique virtues of the man or his words must be a bad actor. It's a cultish creed Labour need to stamp out and quarantine itself from as it's just so dangerous - not initially as they have power over very little and are reduced to attacking minor celebrities - but as it rots the brain and would cause huge problems were it to be over something serious where errors had been made it was impossible to reasonably course correct without blaming some conspiracy.
    Thank you for this entertaining mix of projection and amateur psychiatry. Now here is what actually happened and why -

    In 2015 in a climate favourable to re-election the party suppressed its radicalism - in both content and messaging - for fear of being rogered by the tory press and (linked) of spooking the denizens of Middle England.

    Result - a Conservative majority government. Reaction - Fuck it then. Let's stop poncing around. Let's drop the timidity. It's sterile and it's getting us nowhere in any case. We'll shift left. Elect a properly socialist leader and run on a radical platform. No apologies for it. Give the voters the choice and see what happens.

    What did happen? - Another loss but close and a better performance than achieved under the previous 2 leaders. And this despite Jeremy Corbyn being a sub-optimal PM candidate on a personal level (deficiency of brain power).

    Moral - The left nearly won a GE with a poor leader. With better packaging we can do so one day soon.
    Labour didn't lose the 2015 election, particularly in England. They actually had a net gain IN ENGLAND of 4 seats. It was the collapse of the LD's, significantly, but by no means exclusively to the Tories, that put Cameron back in No 10, albeit with a small overall majority than the Coalition had had. It was the rise in the SNP vote that did for Labour.
    Milliband should have stayed as leader.
    I liked - and like - him but I think he had to go. That 2015 result was such a terrible blow.
    EdM's problem was that he never seemed interested beyond the 'ordinary people' of Dartmouth Park. Or as I think Sandy described it 'talking to the top 10% about the bottom 10%'.

    Now if only there had been some intelligent lefty who had come from the North but now lived in Hampstead who could have taken EdM to the restaurant in BHS Doncaster then things might have been different. :wink:
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    the implication seems to be that cooperation among sovereign entities is either weak or cause for hilarity.

    No

    The cause for hilarity is that we had the cooperation.

    Priti Patel campaigned to abandon that cooperation.

    She is now whining about needing cooperation.

    The hilarity is that the Brexiteers fucked up. Again.
    So why have we had 20+ years of cross channel asylum seekers ?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,219
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    I thought Whitmer was an obvious choice in the early days of this saga: governor experience of a key marginal State in the area of the country that is surely once again going to decide the election (unless it is not close at all). But she is the wrong colour. Could Biden really afford to disappoint his black supporters now? I think not. Its Harris or Rice, probably Harris although Rice would be better.

    If he wants to pick a black female US representative Val Demings would be better than Harris or Rice as like Whitmer but unlike them she is from a key swing state, Florida
    The evidence of VPs swinging their home states isn't great, maybe LBJ and Texas is the standout. What I think is more important for Sleepy Joe is having someone who is obviously capable of being a stand in or doing the heavy lifting for him. He is a weak candidate and one of the reasons for that is he may already be senile. It makes his number 2 unusually important. For me, Rice ticks those boxes better than the others.
    I don't think there is any doubt that Biden is already senile.

    The extent and how it may increase are the unknows.
    He is a typical 77 year old.
    The typical 77 year old has been in retirement for over a decade.
    Yes. It's not ideal. But I wouldn't on the evidence go with "senile" or "has dementia". This is loose and overly derogatory.
    Such talk was a regular feature throughout the primary campaign.

    It seems only to have become 'wrong' once Biden became the candidate.
    Wrong then, wrong now. He's just too old, that's all. Not to win - he will - but to be a strong president. I back him for one reason only. The obvious reason.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    Well I don't support them , why ask teachers to do it and then make them out to be cheats and liars by making up another system to trash the teachers opinions.
    I would be less than happy if I was a teacher for sure and you calling Scottish teachers liars and cheats deserves abuse that I would get banned for.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unfortunately, you and by extension the Labour left are drawing the wrong moral.

    Corbyn nearly beat Theresa May, who was determined to do her best to spook everyone who wasn't a hardcore Conservative voter. Result, the opposition rallied behind Labour in a bid to reduce her majority, thinking that as Corbyn had no chance of winning it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Or let me put it to you another way. When standing on a basically similar manifesto, against a much weaker leader, who had no policy platform and who had just been found guilty of misusing a prerogative power in the courts - Labour lost horrendously badly. Their worst result, indeed, since 1935.

    The moral of this story is that people are only willing to vote for far left policies when there is no chance of them winning. Therefore, to win, ditch the far left policies based on drug-addled dogmatism and try to come up with a vaguely realistic and costed policy agenda.

    It is quite significant that in the early stages of the 2017 campaign the Tory strategists identified a number of seats that they failed to take then, but which did fall in 2019 - Bolsover and West Bromwich West, for example.

    The British Election Study in 2017 found no evidence that people voted Labour because they thought they had no chance of winning. It's a myth.

    Labour stayed at about 40% in the polls from GE17 until well into 2019.

    Johnson and Get Brexit Done were (sadly) a potent electoral combination. I dislike both but one has to face facts.
    But you’re saying you can win on a hard left manifesto - which has happened once in the last 120 years, in 1945. And it’s not as though it hasn’t been repeatedly offered.

    That’s a fact you have to face, but although Starmer is facing it I’m not sure a Labour are.
    I can assure you the majority of Labour are, hence Starmer's high approval ratings and landslide victory
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unfortunately, you and by extension the Labour left are drawing the wrong moral.

    Corbyn nearly beat Theresa May, who was determined to do her best to spook everyone who wasn't a hardcore Conservative voter. Result, the opposition rallied behind Labour in a bid to reduce her majority, thinking that as Corbyn had no chance of winning it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Or let me put it to you another way. When standing on a basically similar manifesto, against a much weaker leader, who had no policy platform and who had just been found guilty of misusing a prerogative power in the courts - Labour lost horrendously badly. Their worst result, indeed, since 1935.

    The moral of this story is that people are only willing to vote for far left policies when there is no chance of them winning. Therefore, to win, ditch the far left policies based on drug-addled dogmatism and try to come up with a vaguely realistic and costed policy agenda.

    It is quite significant that in the early stages of the 2017 campaign the Tory strategists identified a number of seats that they failed to take then, but which did fall in 2019 - Bolsover and West Bromwich West, for example.

    The British Election Study in 2017 found no evidence that people voted Labour because they thought they had no chance of winning. It's a myth.

    Labour stayed at about 40% in the polls from GE17 until well into 2019.

    Johnson and Get Brexit Done were (sadly) a potent electoral combination. I dislike both but one has to face facts.
    But you’re saying you can win on a hard left manifesto - which has happened once in the last 120 years, in 1945. And it’s not as though it hasn’t been repeatedly offered.

    That’s a fact you have to face, but although Starmer is facing it I’m not sure a Labour are.
    I can assure you the majority of Labour are, hence Starmer's high approval ratings and landslide victory
    Well, that’s encouraging.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unfortunately, you and by extension the Labour left are drawing the wrong moral.

    Corbyn nearly beat Theresa May, who was determined to do her best to spook everyone who wasn't a hardcore Conservative voter. Result, the opposition rallied behind Labour in a bid to reduce her majority, thinking that as Corbyn had no chance of winning it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Or let me put it to you another way. When standing on a basically similar manifesto, against a much weaker leader, who had no policy platform and who had just been found guilty of misusing a prerogative power in the courts - Labour lost horrendously badly. Their worst result, indeed, since 1935.

    The moral of this story is that people are only willing to vote for far left policies when there is no chance of them winning. Therefore, to win, ditch the far left policies based on drug-addled dogmatism and try to come up with a vaguely realistic and costed policy agenda.

    It is quite significant that in the early stages of the 2017 campaign the Tory strategists identified a number of seats that they failed to take then, but which did fall in 2019 - Bolsover and West Bromwich West, for example.

    The British Election Study in 2017 found no evidence that people voted Labour because they thought they had no chance of winning. It's a myth.

    Labour stayed at about 40% in the polls from GE17 until well into 2019.

    Johnson and Get Brexit Done were (sadly) a potent electoral combination. I dislike both but one has to face facts.
    But you’re saying you can win on a hard left manifesto - which has happened once in the last 120 years, in 1945. And it’s not as though it hasn’t been repeatedly offered.

    That’s a fact you have to face, but although Starmer is facing it I’m not sure a Labour are.
    I can assure you the majority of Labour are, hence Starmer's high approval ratings and landslide victory
    Well, that’s encouraging.
    If I as Corbyn's biggest cheerleader can accept I got it wrong - and in all honesty his attitude since the election has just solidified that view - then it seems obvious to me that the majority of Labour members feel the same.

    The dying sounds of the fringe are shouting loudly on Twitter, they've lost and they know it
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    I hear there's some large amounts of pineapple topping being stockpiled by pizza outlets, in readiness....

    England need 196 with 9 wickets left.....
  • Options

    I hear there's some large amounts of pineapple topping being stockpiled by pizza outlets, in readiness....

    England need 196 with 9 wickets left.....

    Dominic Sibley curses you.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    I hear there's some large amounts of pineapple topping being stockpiled by pizza outlets, in readiness....

    England need 196 with 9 wickets left.....

    8 wickets left...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    I hear there's some large amounts of pineapple topping being stockpiled by pizza outlets, in readiness....

    England need 196 with 9 wickets left.....

    You numpty.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,219
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unfortunately, you and by extension the Labour left are drawing the wrong moral.

    Corbyn nearly beat Theresa May, who was determined to do her best to spook everyone who wasn't a hardcore Conservative voter. Result, the opposition rallied behind Labour in a bid to reduce her majority, thinking that as Corbyn had no chance of winning it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Or let me put it to you another way. When standing on a basically similar manifesto, against a much weaker leader, who had no policy platform and who had just been found guilty of misusing a prerogative power in the courts - Labour lost horrendously badly. Their worst result, indeed, since 1935.

    The moral of this story is that people are only willing to vote for far left policies when there is no chance of them winning. Therefore, to win, ditch the far left policies based on drug-addled dogmatism and try to come up with a vaguely realistic and costed policy agenda.

    It is quite significant that in the early stages of the 2017 campaign the Tory strategists identified a number of seats that they failed to take then, but which did fall in 2019 - Bolsover and West Bromwich West, for example.

    The British Election Study in 2017 found no evidence that people voted Labour because they thought they had no chance of winning. It's a myth.

    Labour stayed at about 40% in the polls from GE17 until well into 2019.

    Johnson and Get Brexit Done were (sadly) a potent electoral combination. I dislike both but one has to face facts.
    But you’re saying you can win on a hard left manifesto - which has happened once in the last 120 years, in 1945. And it’s not as though it hasn’t been repeatedly offered.

    That’s a fact you have to face, but although Starmer is facing it I’m not sure a Labour are.
    The 2017 manifesto was not hard left. But it was unashamedly and distinctly left of the Blair Thatcher settlement. And it garnered a good level of support at the polls despite the leader being (imo) a liability.

    So what I'm saying is we can win from the left with the right leader. I think this is a perfectly reasonable belief.

    That said, my sense is that Starmer will tack to the centre and try to win from there. And I wish him well. It would be nice to win an election even if the platform does not thrill me.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    Incidentally, this tweet on the SQA goes some way towards explaining why statistical modelling is a shite idea.
    https://twitter.com/MrMcEnaney/status/1290698389710151680
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    So you were also happy with them raising a significant number of grades based on a mathematical model from a 23 year old research paper?
    They can do what what they have to, its not an easy situation.

    But the incessant self-serving whine ** from teachers does not impress.

    Especially after they have exposed themselves as cheats and liars by massively over predicting grades.

    Now I'm sure that you will say that you personally do not over-predict grades.

    In which case that should make you direct your abuse at the many teachers who do.

    ** Reminiscent of the incessant self-serving whine in 2012 when 20+ years of grade inflation was brought to an end.
    So you’re quite happy about poor children being clobbered by an algorithm that isn’t valid run by a bunch of failed civil servants who have repeatedly demonstrated over many years they haven’t a fucking clue what they’re doing?

    How very revealing.

    Again, though, you miss the point, possibly wilfully, that they have only used data from teachers in a small minority of cases. So your criticism doesn’t even work.
    Stop frothing, you're not in class now.

    I'm no more a supporter of the education bureaucracy than I am of other government bureaucracies.

    But let me ask you a question.

    Given that last year over 97% of A levels were passes and over 25% were A grades what do you think this year's results should and will be.
    OK, I will answer.

    My very distinct impression, and this impression is backed by a number of conversations I have had, is that this year‘s cohort were rather abler than last year’s. Last year, I had around 25% at 7+. Given the quality of the students I had, and the quality of my own teaching, that would normally be nearer 50%. Anecdotal I know, but there was reason to expect a rise before the pandemic hit.

    That is compounded by the fact that teachers have now a little time to get used to the new exams, and the marking criteria has finally stabilised. So the delivery of the courses has improved substantially.

    So it doesn’t surprise me that grades were up 10% on teacher predictions than on last year. In fact, it suggests that probably they were quite realistic.

    Unless we had ten to fifteen years of data to draw on, it’s not possible to model out background noise. That’s what they’ve tried to do and that’s what’s going to get them into trouble.

    You might argue, with some justice, that DfE requirements and the cowardice of Gove mean that grades are normally standardised from year to year anyway. True to an extent. But that would only be valid if you could expect the school cohorts to be exactly consistent from year to year, which is clearly a nonsense. Otherwise, you would expect abler students in the cohort to attend different schools so there could be very wide variation from year to year. This method has put in place a wallet lottery.

    Does that answer your question?
    No it doesn't - how about you give some numbers so we can compare with what actually happens.

    Unless Darwin has kicked up a couple of gears then an 'abler cohort' should change things by about 0.1%.

    Some schools will do much better than that while others do the opposite.

    Amazing though that this 'abler cohort' came through this year.

    Perhaps you can inform us which other years had a 10% increase in grades because of an 'abler cohort' or a 10% fall in grades because of a less able cohort.

    I'd sure love to know which years were those of genius or stupidity.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    So you were also happy with them raising a significant number of grades based on a mathematical model from a 23 year old research paper?
    They can do what what they have to, its not an easy situation.

    But the incessant self-serving whine ** from teachers does not impress.

    Especially after they have exposed themselves as cheats and liars by massively over predicting grades.

    Now I'm sure that you will say that you personally do not over-predict grades.

    In which case that should make you direct your abuse at the many teachers who do.

    ** Reminiscent of the incessant self-serving whine in 2012 when 20+ years of grade inflation was brought to an end.
    So you’re quite happy about poor children being clobbered by an algorithm that isn’t valid run by a bunch of failed civil servants who have repeatedly demonstrated over many years they haven’t a fucking clue what they’re doing?

    How very revealing.

    Again, though, you miss the point, possibly wilfully, that they have only used data from teachers in a small minority of cases. So your criticism doesn’t even work.
    Stop frothing, you're not in class now.

    I'm no more a supporter of the education bureaucracy than I am of other government bureaucracies.

    But let me ask you a question.

    Given that last year over 97% of A levels were passes and over 25% were A grades what do you think this year's results should and will be.
    OK, I will answer.

    My very distinct impression, and this impression is backed by a number of conversations I have had, is that this year‘s cohort were rather abler than last year’s. Last year, I had around 25% at 7+. Given the quality of the students I had, and the quality of my own teaching, that would normally be nearer 50%. Anecdotal I know, but there was reason to expect a rise before the pandemic hit.

    That is compounded by the fact that teachers have now a little time to get used to the new exams, and the marking criteria has finally stabilised. So the delivery of the courses has improved substantially.

    So it doesn’t surprise me that grades were up 10% on teacher predictions than on last year. In fact, it suggests that probably they were quite realistic.

    Unless we had ten to fifteen years of data to draw on, it’s not possible to model out background noise. That’s what they’ve tried to do and that’s what’s going to get them into trouble.

    You might argue, with some justice, that DfE requirements and the cowardice of Gove mean that grades are normally standardised from year to year anyway. True to an extent. But that would only be valid if you could expect the school cohorts to be exactly consistent from year to year, which is clearly a nonsense. Otherwise, you would expect abler students in the cohort to attend different schools so there could be very wide variation from year to year. This method has put in place a wallet lottery.

    Does that answer your question?
    No it doesn't - how about you give some numbers so we can compare with what actually happens.

    Unless Darwin has kicked up a couple of gears then an 'abler cohort' should change things by about 0.1%.

    Some schools will do much better than that while others do the opposite.

    Amazing though that this 'abler cohort' came through this year.

    Perhaps you can inform us which other years had a 10% increase in grades because of an 'abler cohort' or a 10% fall in grades because of a less able cohort.

    I'd sure love to know which years were those of genius or stupidity.
    Why you so angry bruh
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
    Whereas in reality there are grades from previous years:

    The proportion of students achieving the top grades at A-level has fallen to its lowest level for more than a decade, this year's results show.

    This year some 25.5% got an A grade or higher - the lowest level since 2007 when it was 25.3%.

    Girls narrowly reclaimed the lead from boys, with 25.5% achieving A* and A grades compared with 25.4% of boys.

    The overall pass rate remains the same as last year at 97.6% for students in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

    So what we'll be able to do next week is compare the grades awarded with what happened in previous years.

    And then compare the grades awarded with the teacher predicted grades.

    Now which do you think will be the closest:

    2019 grades compared with 2020 grades or 2019 grades versus 2020 teacher predicted grades ?
    One year isn’t sufficient for a dataset.

    The longest stretch you could have for A-level is History, at four years. Some subjects, for example, Economics, only one.

    At GCSE, almost all subjects will have only one or two years of data. You cannot use that as a dataset. Not with any credibility, anyway.

    Honestly, do you work for the DfE?
    We will know if you or Another Richard is correct when next year's results come out via interpolation
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:


    We will know if you or Another Richard is correct when next year's results come out via interpolation

    Hell of an assumption that next year's exams aren't cancelled again.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Unfortunately, you and by extension the Labour left are drawing the wrong moral.

    Corbyn nearly beat Theresa May, who was determined to do her best to spook everyone who wasn't a hardcore Conservative voter. Result, the opposition rallied behind Labour in a bid to reduce her majority, thinking that as Corbyn had no chance of winning it wouldn't cause a problem.

    Or let me put it to you another way. When standing on a basically similar manifesto, against a much weaker leader, who had no policy platform and who had just been found guilty of misusing a prerogative power in the courts - Labour lost horrendously badly. Their worst result, indeed, since 1935.

    The moral of this story is that people are only willing to vote for far left policies when there is no chance of them winning. Therefore, to win, ditch the far left policies based on drug-addled dogmatism and try to come up with a vaguely realistic and costed policy agenda.

    It is quite significant that in the early stages of the 2017 campaign the Tory strategists identified a number of seats that they failed to take then, but which did fall in 2019 - Bolsover and West Bromwich West, for example.

    The British Election Study in 2017 found no evidence that people voted Labour because they thought they had no chance of winning. It's a myth.

    Labour stayed at about 40% in the polls from GE17 until well into 2019.

    Johnson and Get Brexit Done were (sadly) a potent electoral combination. I dislike both but one has to face facts.
    But you’re saying you can win on a hard left manifesto - which has happened once in the last 120 years, in 1945. And it’s not as though it hasn’t been repeatedly offered.

    That’s a fact you have to face, but although Starmer is facing it I’m not sure a Labour are.
    The 2017 manifesto was not hard left. But it was unashamedly and distinctly left of the Blair Thatcher settlement. And it garnered a good level of support at the polls despite the leader being (imo) a liability.

    So what I'm saying is we can win from the left with the right leader. I think this is a perfectly reasonable belief.

    That said, my sense is that Starmer will tack to the centre and try to win from there. And I wish him well. It would be nice to win an election even if the platform does not thrill me.
    We'll only win again when we're perceived as being from the centre.

    People get this wrong, Attlee was where the country was, he wasn't massively to the left as Corbyn was in 2019.

    What 2017 proved was that the centre now is a lot more left wing than it's been since 1997. And any sensible leader would look at that and go forward.

    That's why Johnson tacked to the left
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited August 2020

    Some schools will do much better than that while others do the opposite.

    But they won’t, will they? They will have to do it based on last year’s performance and that only if they go down the statistical modelling route.

    Do you honestly think that’s acceptable?

    As for numbers, I would have tested my belief against the results. But we don’t get any, because these idiots (whom despite your denials you are clearly a supporter of) are not giving us meaningful data to work with. So how can I give you them? All I can tell you is that anecdotally I think this was a strong cohort, and last year’s was not.

    I think the real problem is you don’t understand what you’re talking about, but you’re convinced you are.

    Are you sure your name is Richard and not Dominic?

    Edit - incidentally my belief the students in my classes this year were abler were borne out by baseline tests, notably their CAT4. But OFQUAL haven’t used those either.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,219

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MJW said:

    kle4 said:

    My browser for some reason recommened an article from a website I'd never heard of before, which had a rather peculiar premise about 'How Corbyn unmasked comedy'.

    It seems to be saying tha anti-establishmentism is the key to comedy, and because some famous comedians and comedy programmes disliked Corbyn or did such things as 'blamed Corbyn for Johnson’s victory without taking responsibility for helping Johnson establish his harmless clown persona', that means they were on the same side as 'the establisment'. It calls out Charlie Brooker for a bit on the Corbyn-Branson row which apparently included far more time attacking Corbyn than Branson and didn't consider corporate interests (that Corbyn was indeed wrong about what he claimed I guess is not of relevance).

    https://www.redpepper.org.uk/how-corbyn-unmasked-comedy/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

    Blaming Corbyn for losing an election? Perish the thought. Apparently comedians are are supposed to be political radicals at all times. It's silly of political conservatives to moan that there's too much left wing comedy out there, without Corbynites also now suggesting the comedy establishment is not doing its job because they mocked the great man. (Ed M didn't get it easy either of course).

    Onthe other hand, the article itself was therefore of great comedic value.

    As we are seeing with the laughable conspiracies around the 'Labour Report' one of the key problems with Corbynism is that it has no safety valve of self-doubt or ability to admit its own failings, as it is predicated on the man and his supporters being uniquely virtuous. Otherwise, what is the point? If you admit nuance and the validity of different views as reasonably held and having their merits within Labour's tradition, why put forward someone the public hate, who even he would admit isn't exactly a natural in the role of leader? Why put up with the ossuary he hangs his clothes in or evidence of managerial incompetence? It only makes sense if he and you have hit upon something uniquely virtuous and everyone else is a nefarious Blairite/Tory acting out of venality and malice.

    So comedians must be to blame, not Corbyn. Or Jews. Or Labour officials. Or Laura Kuenssberg, Countdown hosts, anyone who doesn't see the unique virtues of the man or his words must be a bad actor. It's a cultish creed Labour need to stamp out and quarantine itself from as it's just so dangerous - not initially as they have power over very little and are reduced to attacking minor celebrities - but as it rots the brain and would cause huge problems were it to be over something serious where errors had been made it was impossible to reasonably course correct without blaming some conspiracy.
    Thank you for this entertaining mix of projection and amateur psychiatry. Now here is what actually happened and why -

    In 2015 in a climate favourable to re-election the party suppressed its radicalism - in both content and messaging - for fear of being rogered by the tory press and (linked) of spooking the denizens of Middle England.

    Result - a Conservative majority government. Reaction - Fuck it then. Let's stop poncing around. Let's drop the timidity. It's sterile and it's getting us nowhere in any case. We'll shift left. Elect a properly socialist leader and run on a radical platform. No apologies for it. Give the voters the choice and see what happens.

    What did happen? - Another loss but close and a better performance than achieved under the previous 2 leaders. And this despite Jeremy Corbyn being a sub-optimal PM candidate on a personal level (deficiency of brain power).

    Moral - The left nearly won a GE with a poor leader. With better packaging we can do so one day soon.
    Labour didn't lose the 2015 election, particularly in England. They actually had a net gain IN ENGLAND of 4 seats. It was the collapse of the LD's, significantly, but by no means exclusively to the Tories, that put Cameron back in No 10, albeit with a small overall majority than the Coalition had had. It was the rise in the SNP vote that did for Labour.
    Milliband should have stayed as leader.
    I liked - and like - him but I think he had to go. That 2015 result was such a terrible blow.
    EdM's problem was that he never seemed interested beyond the 'ordinary people' of Dartmouth Park. Or as I think Sandy described it 'talking to the top 10% about the bottom 10%'.

    Now if only there had been some intelligent lefty who had come from the North but now lived in Hampstead who could have taken EdM to the restaurant in BHS Doncaster then things might have been different. :wink:
    lol - as if.

    But seriously, he was demonized as "geeky" and "red ed" and "wimpy" and all of that, total nonsense, but it seeped in - as your comment testifies. A shame. Would have been a good PM probably. But all substance no style is the very opposite of what we seem to value these days - e.g. the ghastly "Boris".
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
    Whereas in reality there are grades from previous years:

    The proportion of students achieving the top grades at A-level has fallen to its lowest level for more than a decade, this year's results show.

    This year some 25.5% got an A grade or higher - the lowest level since 2007 when it was 25.3%.

    Girls narrowly reclaimed the lead from boys, with 25.5% achieving A* and A grades compared with 25.4% of boys.

    The overall pass rate remains the same as last year at 97.6% for students in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

    So what we'll be able to do next week is compare the grades awarded with what happened in previous years.

    And then compare the grades awarded with the teacher predicted grades.

    Now which do you think will be the closest:

    2019 grades compared with 2020 grades or 2019 grades versus 2020 teacher predicted grades ?
    One year isn’t sufficient for a dataset.

    The longest stretch you could have for A-level is History, at four years. Some subjects, for example, Economics, only one.

    At GCSE, almost all subjects will have only one or two years of data. You cannot use that as a dataset. Not with any credibility, anyway.

    Honestly, do you work for the DfE?
    We will know if you or Another Richard is correct when next year's results come out via interpolation
    You don’t think the disruption to education this year, which has led to major changes being made in the exams for next year as well, might make that a difficult comparison?
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    Well I don't support them , why ask teachers to do it and then make them out to be cheats and liars by making up another system to trash the teachers opinions.
    I would be less than happy if I was a teacher for sure and you calling Scottish teachers liars and cheats deserves abuse that I would get banned for.
    Nation 5
    2016-2019 average 78.6%
    2020 actual after lowering 81.1%
    2020 teacher predicted 88.6%

    Higher
    2016-2019 average 76.5%
    2020 actual after lowering 78.9%
    2020 teacher predicted 88.8%

    Advanced Higher
    2016-2019 average 80.4%
    2020 actual after lowering 84.9%
    2020 teacher predicted 92.8%

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53636296

    Its the Scottish government who has done a better job than the teachers.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    How will we know, given they haven’t used our data?

    The point is, in the absence of a significant past dataset, the ‘statistical modelling’ they have used will be utterly meaningless. These grades will have as much validity as a Cummings press release.

    And that will not only cause a furore this year, but will undermine exams going forward. Because how can you have confidence in a system run by people as mind-bendingly stupid and ignorant as this?
    I assume there will be three sets of numbers available:

    (1) The grades from previous years
    (2) The teacher predicted grades
    (3) The grades awarded this year

    If (3) is higher than or close to (1) then complaints will look stupid.
    If (2) is much higher than (1) then teachers will have exposed themselves as cheats and liars.
    For fuck’s sake.

    THERE ARE NO GRADES FROM PREVIOUS YEARS. DUE TO EXAM REFORMS ANY GRADES FROM BEFORE LAST YEAR ARE NOT COMPARABLE.

    I am sure I have said this before.

    Which means statistical modelling cannot be used.

    But it has been.
    Whereas in reality there are grades from previous years:

    The proportion of students achieving the top grades at A-level has fallen to its lowest level for more than a decade, this year's results show.

    This year some 25.5% got an A grade or higher - the lowest level since 2007 when it was 25.3%.

    Girls narrowly reclaimed the lead from boys, with 25.5% achieving A* and A grades compared with 25.4% of boys.

    The overall pass rate remains the same as last year at 97.6% for students in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49290421

    So what we'll be able to do next week is compare the grades awarded with what happened in previous years.

    And then compare the grades awarded with the teacher predicted grades.

    Now which do you think will be the closest:

    2019 grades compared with 2020 grades or 2019 grades versus 2020 teacher predicted grades ?
    One year isn’t sufficient for a dataset.

    The longest stretch you could have for A-level is History, at four years. Some subjects, for example, Economics, only one.

    At GCSE, almost all subjects will have only one or two years of data. You cannot use that as a dataset. Not with any credibility, anyway.

    Honestly, do you work for the DfE?
    We will know if you or Another Richard is correct when next year's results come out via interpolation
    You don’t think the disruption to education this year, which has led to major changes being made in the exams for next year as well, might make that a difficult comparison?
    We'll know for sure in 3 or 4 years.
  • Options
    I'm not eating a pizza with pineapple on it after this test match.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The first major test of Labour as an opposition seems likely to hit on Thursday.

    A train wreck complete with a jumbo crash is incoming. It was foreseeable and happened because the government are completely useless, and overlooked obviously preferable alternatives.

    If Kate Green can get a handle on that...

    What happens Thursday?
    A-level grades come out.

    Having said they will use teacher grades, OFQUAL have now admitted they are judging by past school performance, as the SQA did.

    But it's even better than that, because they don't have as good a data set. All the exams are too new. So according to leaks from yesterday, what is going to happen is:

    1) School cohorts of below five - teacher assessment alone

    2) Cohorts of five to fifteen - mix of teacher assessment and this discredited algorithm

    3) Cohorts of 15+ - algorithm alone.

    Which means the following:

    1) 40% of grades are not going to match teacher predictions. That's far higher than the 10% gap that was leaked earlier.

    2) State schools - with large cohorts - get decided by computer modelling based on at most four comparable sets of data (more usually two or three). Private schools will get based on teacher assessment. Guess which one is going to get clobbered for downgrading? Hint - not the private schools.

    3) Appeals were previously not allowed. Now they are being allowed. They will only be allowed via schools. However, that may change again.

    4) Expect to see this challenged through the courts

    5) Expect the exam system in October to implode

    6) Expect Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove to be blamed, as they were responsible for setting up both the new exams and the current iteration of OFQUAL and the exam boards.

    7) Expect utter chaos as the government tries to blame teachers for providing evidence they decided to ignore.

    8) Expect actual student riots and the unions to ballot their members over strike action.

    And all this could have been avoided if that brain dead moron we call our PM had thought to ask schools to send in samples of work they had graded at A, B, C, D etc for each subject so some standardisation could have been done on that basis.

    This is going to be bad. You thought the SQA was a shambles? This is worse.

    Oh - and GCSEs are going to be worse.

    More here:

    https://www.tes.com/news/GCSE-results-2020-teacher-grades-ignored

    TSE pointed this story out. But the implications are absolutely dire. You could easily see every exam board, OFQUAL and the DfE consumed by this.
    You'd better hope that English teachers haven't exposed themselves as cheats and liars by vastly over predicting grades as their Scottish counterparts did.
    Our local education expert opines that teachers are cheats and liars, you could not make it up. Good old another richardhead
    Perhaps you could compare the grades Scottish teachers predicted with what had been achieved in previous years ?

    And if you'd thought instead of switching automatically into abuse you would see I have backed the action of the Scottish government in lowering those predicted grades.
    Well I don't support them , why ask teachers to do it and then make them out to be cheats and liars by making up another system to trash the teachers opinions.
    I would be less than happy if I was a teacher for sure and you calling Scottish teachers liars and cheats deserves abuse that I would get banned for.
    Nation 5
    2016-2019 average 78.6%
    2020 actual after lowering 81.1%
    2020 teacher predicted 88.6%

    Higher
    2016-2019 average 76.5%
    2020 actual after lowering 78.9%
    2020 teacher predicted 88.8%

    Advanced Higher
    2016-2019 average 80.4%
    2020 actual after lowering 84.9%
    2020 teacher predicted 92.8%

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53636296

    Its the Scottish government who has done a better job than the teachers.
    By assigning numbers based on parental wealth?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    I'm not eating a pizza with pineapple on it after this test match.

    You owe me, big time.....
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    I'm not eating a pizza with pineapple on it after this test match.

    Nor am I, sadly.

    Admittedly, they’ve got further than I expected. But one more wicket and they’re through to the tail.

    And these bowlers are looking very dangerous.
  • Options
    I wonder what the 2019 GE result would have been if Labour had never backed a second referendum but Corbyn had stayed on. Much the same I think
  • Options

    I'm not eating a pizza with pineapple on it after this test match.

    You owe me, big time.....
    Thank you but I'd rather England won the test match.
This discussion has been closed.