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  • Re barber shops, thought I'd seen their near-total extinction.

    When yours truly was a lad, was expected (make that ordered) to get haircut no less than once every other week. There were two barber shops in my small home town. One was a major community center - for men - and you always had to wait. Plenty of conversation, but 99.46% was sports or hunting, both of which bored me sillly.

    SO usually went to the 2nd shop, which was way less busy. Never a line that I ever saw. Perhaps because the barber was slightly eccentric (in a small town, not English noble way) AND liked to talk politics. Which I was already finding of interest. AND didn't bother me that this barber was a BIG fan of George Wallace, whereas I was NOT. Was too young to argue with him (at least in that time & place) so I just listened a lot.

    Few years later I started rebelling against my Dad's haircut schedule. AND a new avenue opened in the 70s - men having their hair "styled" by women, often in women's beauty shops. Which was WAY more fun than when some guy did it - PLUS you were much less likely to end up looking like a Marine in boot camp.

    Finally got to point of semi-superannuation where I decided to stop getting (what was left of) my hair cut at all. And strangely enough, it pretty much stopped growing, or at least getting any longer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Compare & contrast who the UK would be willing to help with who would be willing to help the UK...

    https://twitter.com/b_judah/status/1290328646545215490?s=20

    Well, Brexit does mean Brexit! The countries that the EU members are willing to help remain in the Union. Isn't that what Unions are for, mutual support?
    Your fellow Brits don't agree with you.
    No, it reads to me as if my fellow Britons remain (net) keen to help out EU countries in trouble, even though we left the Union.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Sadly, the last few days' announcements by the Govt. seem to have proven my comments from June right. We have very little leeway to open up society and the economy whilst this virus is in the wild. I suspect we'll be going backwards into more restrictions as the days shorten and the weather worsens.

    We managed a domestic holiday (4 nights) and a few weekend's with family, but I don't think we'll be doing much else for the rest of the summer or autumn now. We live by the sea, in a house with a garden, and so are absolutely privileged. I really do feel for those who have little outside space or easy (and relatively safe) leisure provision. This is going to be a long old year.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Compare & contrast who the UK would be willing to help with who would be willing to help the UK...

    https://twitter.com/b_judah/status/1290328646545215490?s=20

    Well, Brexit does mean Brexit! The countries that the EU members are willing to help remain in the Union. Isn't that what Unions are for, mutual support?
    Your fellow Brits don't agree with you.
    Tbh, I don't know how useful the UK responses are because we've just been reading about how the UK escaped from a £100bn bill, for other EU countries this a much more real situation which makes sense.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Quick look at the evening polling news from the other side of the Pond.

    Biden up four in Ohio (48-44) - a state Trump won by eight last time.

    Trump up 11 in Montana (53-42),a state he won by 21 (57-36) last time so once again a swing of 5-6% and this is something we are seeing in the State polls - not universally, not consistently but a general 5-6% swing away from Trump to Biden.

    Better news for Trump from the daily Rasmussen Presidential approval poll which was Trump back to +4 (51-47).
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    The pubs have been open for a month, so if people getting pissed and breathing over each other were going to cause a tsunami wave of cases (as opposed to isolated instances where groups have behaved like knobs or got very unlucky) then one has to assume that this would've started by now.

    That leaves, as the source for this fresh explosion, the holidaymakers. Were there enough of them out in Spain, were there enough cases abroad in the places where most of them were visiting for a sufficiently large number to become infected, and have they then been insufficiently compliant with the demand to quarantine on top of that, for this to trigger off a major new burst of community transmission? You may be right, but colour me sceptical.

    I think there's far more to it than that. Certainly in my neck of the woods I've seen the gradual breakdown of social distancing and even mask wearing to the extent I now look unusual wearing my mask in East Ham High Street.

    Whether this will lead to a "tsunami" of cases is debatable but if we do get more cases and have to endure a re-tightening of restrictions, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

  • Ave_it said:

    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland

    Currently in Switzerland on 6night break.

    May come back in Sept if the UK government has not stopped me.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Scott_xP said:
    Why doesn't a brave journalist just name him?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Tories largest party and almost certainly with a majority of English seats but Starmer becomes PM with SNP and Plaid and Green support or SNP and LDs support
    UNS would imply 46 Labour gains taking them to circa 250 with the Tories at circa 315.Unlikely the SNP would win 58 - Orkney & Shetland would surely remain LibDem.
    I don't know. Mr Carmichael was arguably badly damaged by the unfortunate court case a few years back, arising from his allegations about the Scottish Government and the French Consulate. He lost some of his majority at the last election.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Ave_it said:

    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland

    I'm going to Dungeness on Wednesday, so I might get some French phone reception if that counts.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Ave_it said:

    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland

    I crossed the border into Lancashire last week.

    Anyway, Scotland has told those of us in the pox zone to feck off.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I can't see it myself. While the Green Lib Dems are a strong faction within the party, I don't think a formal merger is on the cards.

    I don't think the 2019 tactic of standing down for each other helped much in reality.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Ave_it said:

    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland

    Easyjet just cancelled our September flights to Berlin.

    So no, not at the moment.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    stodge said:


    The pubs have been open for a month, so if people getting pissed and breathing over each other were going to cause a tsunami wave of cases (as opposed to isolated instances where groups have behaved like knobs or got very unlucky) then one has to assume that this would've started by now.

    That leaves, as the source for this fresh explosion, the holidaymakers. Were there enough of them out in Spain, were there enough cases abroad in the places where most of them were visiting for a sufficiently large number to become infected, and have they then been insufficiently compliant with the demand to quarantine on top of that, for this to trigger off a major new burst of community transmission? You may be right, but colour me sceptical.

    I think there's far more to it than that. Certainly in my neck of the woods I've seen the gradual breakdown of social distancing and even mask wearing to the extent I now look unusual wearing my mask in East Ham High Street.

    Whether this will lead to a "tsunami" of cases is debatable but if we do get more cases and have to endure a re-tightening of restrictions, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
    If that's the case then it's certainly not happening everywhere. My experience round here is that people have given into the mask edict since it came into force and the hospitality establishments appear to be taking their responsibilities seriously. That, coupled with the fact that we're not seeing widespread reports of new clusters all over the country, suggests that real problems are confined to certain localities and that the Government approach of taking a cricket bat to those areas whilst leaving everyone else well alone is currently working.

    As always, however, one has to add the caveat that this may not survive the schools going back. A kiddie-related disaster seems to me to be the most likely cause of a blanket reimposition of restrictions. We should have an answer to this puzzle by the end of September, or possibly sooner if things go seriously pear-shaped in Scotland.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Re all these blow by blow polls - it's not now that matters is it. Plenty of time for recriminations. These polls exist to keep pollsters, media and punters happy (or not).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why doesn't a brave journalist just name him?
    Broadly, I support the defendants right to anonymity, at least until charged.

    It is possible though (and as has happened in a number of historic and contemporary cases) that being named may bring out a lot of similar #metoo victims.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Foxy said:

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I can't see it myself. While the Green Lib Dems are a strong faction within the party, I don't think a formal merger is on the cards.

    I don't think the 2019 tactic of standing down for each other helped much in reality.
    What insight.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland

    Easyjet just cancelled our September flights to Berlin.

    So no, not at the moment.
    I was thinking about going to Lille in Northern France for a night in Oct but am not sure now!

    The clubbing trip to Ibiza is off this year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    stodge said:


    The pubs have been open for a month, so if people getting pissed and breathing over each other were going to cause a tsunami wave of cases (as opposed to isolated instances where groups have behaved like knobs or got very unlucky) then one has to assume that this would've started by now.

    That leaves, as the source for this fresh explosion, the holidaymakers. Were there enough of them out in Spain, were there enough cases abroad in the places where most of them were visiting for a sufficiently large number to become infected, and have they then been insufficiently compliant with the demand to quarantine on top of that, for this to trigger off a major new burst of community transmission? You may be right, but colour me sceptical.

    I think there's far more to it than that. Certainly in my neck of the woods I've seen the gradual breakdown of social distancing and even mask wearing to the extent I now look unusual wearing my mask in East Ham High Street.

    Whether this will lead to a "tsunami" of cases is debatable but if we do get more cases and have to endure a re-tightening of restrictions, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
    If that's the case then it's certainly not happening everywhere. My experience round here is that people have given into the mask edict since it came into force and the hospitality establishments appear to be taking their responsibilities seriously. That, coupled with the fact that we're not seeing widespread reports of new clusters all over the country, suggests that real problems are confined to certain localities and that the Government approach of taking a cricket bat to those areas whilst leaving everyone else well alone is currently working.

    As always, however, one has to add the caveat that this may not survive the schools going back. A kiddie-related disaster seems to me to be the most likely cause of a blanket reimposition of restrictions. We should have an answer to this puzzle by the end of September, or possibly sooner if things go seriously pear-shaped in Scotland.
    I was out running errands in Leicester at the weekend. Mask compliance was near universal.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    stodge said:


    The pubs have been open for a month, so if people getting pissed and breathing over each other were going to cause a tsunami wave of cases (as opposed to isolated instances where groups have behaved like knobs or got very unlucky) then one has to assume that this would've started by now.

    That leaves, as the source for this fresh explosion, the holidaymakers. Were there enough of them out in Spain, were there enough cases abroad in the places where most of them were visiting for a sufficiently large number to become infected, and have they then been insufficiently compliant with the demand to quarantine on top of that, for this to trigger off a major new burst of community transmission? You may be right, but colour me sceptical.

    I think there's far more to it than that. Certainly in my neck of the woods I've seen the gradual breakdown of social distancing and even mask wearing to the extent I now look unusual wearing my mask in East Ham High Street.

    Whether this will lead to a "tsunami" of cases is debatable but if we do get more cases and have to endure a re-tightening of restrictions, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
    If that's the case then it's certainly not happening everywhere. My experience round here is that people have given into the mask edict since it came into force and the hospitality establishments appear to be taking their responsibilities seriously. That, coupled with the fact that we're not seeing widespread reports of new clusters all over the country, suggests that real problems are confined to certain localities and that the Government approach of taking a cricket bat to those areas whilst leaving everyone else well alone is currently working.

    As always, however, one has to add the caveat that this may not survive the schools going back. A kiddie-related disaster seems to me to be the most likely cause of a blanket reimposition of restrictions. We should have an answer to this puzzle by the end of September, or possibly sooner if things go seriously pear-shaped in Scotland.
    Indeed. The mid-August (as usual) end of the summer holidays in Scotland is going to be interesting.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Foxy said:

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I can't see it myself. While the Green Lib Dems are a strong faction within the party, I don't think a formal merger is on the cards.

    I don't think the 2019 tactic of standing down for each other helped much in reality.
    If Layla wins won't LD simply merge with Official Monster Raving Loony Party?
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    stodge said:


    The pubs have been open for a month, so if people getting pissed and breathing over each other were going to cause a tsunami wave of cases (as opposed to isolated instances where groups have behaved like knobs or got very unlucky) then one has to assume that this would've started by now.

    That leaves, as the source for this fresh explosion, the holidaymakers. Were there enough of them out in Spain, were there enough cases abroad in the places where most of them were visiting for a sufficiently large number to become infected, and have they then been insufficiently compliant with the demand to quarantine on top of that, for this to trigger off a major new burst of community transmission? You may be right, but colour me sceptical.

    I think there's far more to it than that. Certainly in my neck of the woods I've seen the gradual breakdown of social distancing and even mask wearing to the extent I now look unusual wearing my mask in East Ham High Street.

    Whether this will lead to a "tsunami" of cases is debatable but if we do get more cases and have to endure a re-tightening of restrictions, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
    If that's the case then it's certainly not happening everywhere. My experience round here is that people have given into the mask edict since it came into force and the hospitality establishments appear to be taking their responsibilities seriously. That, coupled with the fact that we're not seeing widespread reports of new clusters all over the country, suggests that real problems are confined to certain localities and that the Government approach of taking a cricket bat to those areas whilst leaving everyone else well alone is currently working.

    As always, however, one has to add the caveat that this may not survive the schools going back. A kiddie-related disaster seems to me to be the most likely cause of a blanket reimposition of restrictions. We should have an answer to this puzzle by the end of September, or possibly sooner if things go seriously pear-shaped in Scotland.
    I'm surprised that there's no fuss about Scotland front running. I know its school year starts much earlier but still .....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
    I though this was an interesting case report, that may be relevant to school reopenings:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1290264681957924864?s=09

    They do need to reopen though. Some kids are beginning to go rather feral around here
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why doesn't a brave journalist just name him?
    Broadly, I support the defendants right to anonymity, at least until charged.

    It is possible though (and as has happened in a number of historic and contemporary cases) that being named may bring out a lot of similar #metoo victims.
    Personally I think either both parties should have the right to anonymity or neither should. I still haven't gotten my head around the conviction and then acquittal of Ched Evans. As I understand it, the evidence that cleared him should never have made it to court.
  • Ave_it said:

    Foxy said:

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I can't see it myself. While the Green Lib Dems are a strong faction within the party, I don't think a formal merger is on the cards.

    I don't think the 2019 tactic of standing down for each other helped much in reality.
    If Layla wins won't LD simply merge with Official Monster Raving Loony Party?
    The OMRLP have standards.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Ave_it said:

    Foxy said:

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I can't see it myself. While the Green Lib Dems are a strong faction within the party, I don't think a formal merger is on the cards.

    I don't think the 2019 tactic of standing down for each other helped much in reality.
    If Layla wins won't LD simply merge with Official Monster Raving Loony Party?
    They would probably reject any approach as being too sensible.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Ave_it said:

    Foxy said:

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I can't see it myself. While the Green Lib Dems are a strong faction within the party, I don't think a formal merger is on the cards.

    I don't think the 2019 tactic of standing down for each other helped much in reality.
    If Layla wins won't LD simply merge with Official Monster Raving Loony Party?
    The OMRLP have standards.
    I remember an analysis of the differing policies of the MRLP and the Brexit Party. One had to guess which of a number of offered policies belonged to the MRLP or BP. It was not easy, partly because the MRLP were actually quite sensible ...
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    Ave_it said:

    Foxy said:

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I can't see it myself. While the Green Lib Dems are a strong faction within the party, I don't think a formal merger is on the cards.

    I don't think the 2019 tactic of standing down for each other helped much in reality.
    If Layla wins won't LD simply merge with Official Monster Raving Loony Party?
    Of course not! The OMRL Party has already merged with the Conservatives.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
    Whether you are right, or whether you are wrong on cases., hospital admissions and deaths is debatable.

    What is not debatable is that many people, possibly millions, are going to lose everything they have because of the measures being taken to avoid the scenaro you sketch out.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from the severe economic hardship that is a direct cause of those measures.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from undiagnosed diseases because of the terror causes by the government's propaganda on COVID and the authorities' obsession with it,

    These aren't debatable. They are certain.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    The advertising on here seems to be getting ever more bizarre - I am now being targeted with Japanese sweet adverts (complete with Japanese script).

    Who write these algorithms?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I'm an ex-member but that's a particularly waspish load of piffle from Nick Tyrone who really should know better.

    I suspect Ed will win and we must always remember what someone says in an election and what they do once they've won can often be very different things.

    I'm hoping Ed will face down the "progressives" in the autumn and argue for a form of Orange Book-lite approach in contrast to the high spending high borrowing policies of the Liberal Unionists and the Social Democrats.

    The problem unfortunately is that will leave the LDs where they were in the 1950s - marginalised but correct on most things.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 921
    edited August 2020

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
    Whether you are right, or whether you are wrong on cases., hospital admissions and deaths is debatable.

    What is not debatable is that many people, possibly millions, are going to lose everything they have because of the measures being taken to avoid the scenaro you sketch out.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from the severe economic hardship that is a direct cause of those measures.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from undiagnosed diseases because of the terror causes by the government's propaganda on COVID and the authorities' obsession with it,

    These aren't debatable. They are certain.
    Even if all restrictions were lifted tomorrow a great proportion of the population simply ain't going back to the old way of living until they are vaccinated.

    Another way of looking at it is the economy is going to be f*ed either way given people are not going back to the old ways, so that being the case why not save as many lives as possible?
  • The advertising on here seems to be getting ever more bizarre - I am now being targeted with Japanese sweet adverts (complete with Japanese script).

    Who write these algorithms?

    For several days have noticed that instead of usual political ads the banner on my version of PB features ads for women's clothing. In sizes simply too large for yours truly. PLUS can NOT deal with having to button from wrong side.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed

    “Packed”, oh no, not what the government intended.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed

    and here as well - cinema had 10 people in for the film when I went a couple of days ago. Hope cinemas survive this too stringent imposition of mask wearing in a couple of days time
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
    Whether you are right, or whether you are wrong on cases., hospital admissions and deaths is debatable.

    What is not debatable is that many people, possibly millions, are going to lose everything they have because of the measures being taken to avoid the scenaro you sketch out.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from the severe economic hardship that is a direct cause of those measures.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from undiagnosed diseases because of the terror causes by the government's propaganda on COVID and the authorities' obsession with it,

    These aren't debatable. They are certain.
    Even if all restrictions were lifted tomorrow a great proportion of the population simply ain't going back to the old way of living until they are vaccinated.

    Another way of looking at it is the economy is going to be f*ed either way given people are not going back to the old ways, so that being the case why not save as many lives as possible?
    And the people who are most afraid to go out are also, for the most part (and quite understandably) the medically vulnerable - those with serious chronic conditions and the old.

    Should local measures therefore fail to contain a resurgence of this disease then that constitutes a good argument for segmentation - instructing these groups to go back into some form of lockdown and letting the remainder of the population just get on with it. Which is, of course, precisely the scenario that the Government is reported to have war-gamed. It has denied doing it of course, because the grey vote would wail about the unfairness of it all bitterly, loudly and continuously were it to come to pass - but it has a great deal more sense to it than regressing all the way back to April.

    Indeed, whilst I can see some blanket tightening of restrictions being possible, a wholesale return to national lockdown ain't happening. The fact that we are unable to afford it can't simply be airily waved away.

    Though, of course, locking up the olds isn't the only weapon that the Government might consider deploying to keep the dreaded R number under one. If the evidence from Scotland suggests that the primary school kids aren't causing a serious problem but the older ones are, then I can see the former staying in classrooms but the latter ending up back on Zoom again. Closing hospitality back down and creating several million additional unemployed in order to provide the breathing room to keep all the schools open isn't a thing to be taken lightly, either.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed

    I'm not surprised - 50% off food and soft drinks is an excellent offer and I'd have been astonished at anything other than a strong take-up.

    Interesting to see how it affects trade later in the week and over the weekend.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    stodge said:

    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed

    I'm not surprised - 50% off food and soft drinks is an excellent offer and I'd have been astonished at anything other than a strong take-up.

    Interesting to see how it affects trade later in the week and over the weekend.
    It could be free, but it still wouldn't get me setting foot in Spoons.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed

    and here as well - cinema had 10 people in for the film when I went a couple of days ago. Hope cinemas survive this too stringent imposition of mask wearing in a couple of days time
    It may just be that the cinema, as a venue, is on its way out. Not so long ago, massive flat panel ultra HD TV sets were for the rich, and not so long before that such things did not exist. But the world's moved on, and so have internet streaming services.

    Give it another ten years and it's quite possible that the whole sector may have gone the way of VHS video cassettes, rendered obsolete by modern technology.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
    Whether you are right, or whether you are wrong on cases., hospital admissions and deaths is debatable.

    What is not debatable is that many people, possibly millions, are going to lose everything they have because of the measures being taken to avoid the scenaro you sketch out.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from the severe economic hardship that is a direct cause of those measures.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from undiagnosed diseases because of the terror causes by the government's propaganda on COVID and the authorities' obsession with it,

    These aren't debatable. They are certain.
    Even if all restrictions were lifted tomorrow a great proportion of the population simply ain't going back to the old way of living until they are vaccinated.

    Another way of looking at it is the economy is going to be f*ed either way given people are not going back to the old ways, so that being the case why not save as many lives as possible?
    And the people who are most afraid to go out are also, for the most part (and quite understandably) the medically vulnerable - those with serious chronic conditions and the old.

    Should local measures therefore fail to contain a resurgence of this disease then that constitutes a good argument for segmentation - instructing these groups to go back into some form of lockdown and letting the remainder of the population just get on with it. Which is, of course, precisely the scenario that the Government is reported to have war-gamed. It has denied doing it of course, because the grey vote would wail about the unfairness of it all bitterly, loudly and continuously were it to come to pass - but it has a great deal more sense to it than regressing all the way back to April.

    Indeed, whilst I can see some blanket tightening of restrictions being possible, a wholesale return to national lockdown ain't happening. The fact that we are unable to afford it can't simply be airily waved away.

    Though, of course, locking up the olds isn't the only weapon that the Government might consider deploying to keep the dreaded R number under one. If the evidence from Scotland suggests that the primary school kids aren't causing a serious problem but the older ones are, then I can see the former staying in classrooms but the latter ending up back on Zoom again. Closing hospitality back down and creating several million additional unemployed in order to provide the breathing room to keep all the schools open isn't a thing to be taken lightly, either.
    Just shielding the most at risk won't reduce R. But it would reduce the death toll.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland

    No plans to do so. We were toying with France, but Covid has flared up again there, so we'll stay put I reckon.

    I've been very fortunate in how much of the globe I have seen, so a year or two in the UK is no hardship.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    stodge said:

    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed

    I'm not surprised - 50% off food and soft drinks is an excellent offer and I'd have been astonished at anything other than a strong take-up.

    Interesting to see how it affects trade later in the week and over the weekend.
    It could be free, but it still wouldn't get me setting foot in Spoons.
    Hey, I like Spoons food. 🤷‍♂️

    Unfortunately I’m shielding for the next two weeks, so I’m missing out on juicy half price Spoons and Nandos.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
    Whether you are right, or whether you are wrong on cases., hospital admissions and deaths is debatable.

    What is not debatable is that many people, possibly millions, are going to lose everything they have because of the measures being taken to avoid the scenaro you sketch out.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from the severe economic hardship that is a direct cause of those measures.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from undiagnosed diseases because of the terror causes by the government's propaganda on COVID and the authorities' obsession with it,

    These aren't debatable. They are certain.
    Even if all restrictions were lifted tomorrow a great proportion of the population simply ain't going back to the old way of living until they are vaccinated.

    Another way of looking at it is the economy is going to be f*ed either way given people are not going back to the old ways, so that being the case why not save as many lives as possible?
    And the people who are most afraid to go out are also, for the most part (and quite understandably) the medically vulnerable - those with serious chronic conditions and the old.

    Ummm no

    not remotely accurate from my experience.

    Young (30's) friends who used to spent 3 or 4 nights in pub each week not going out at all.

    Very rich friends (40s) who travel extensively don't leave the house at all any more, everything done on internet shopping.

    You're world is very very different to the one I observe.

    I flew out of Manchester airport on Friday, it was a ghost town, not because the old and vulnerable are scared, but because a huge part of the population is scared and won't re-ignite the economy until they are vaccinated.

    Your starting premise is totally wrong from my observations
  • Any resemblance between linked sketch and HM's Govt purely coincidential.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8nl8eBoq0
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    stodge said:

    I know there's a few LibDem members on PB.

    What do you think of this?


    "If Layla becomes leader, it will simply be a matter of time before the Lib Dems and the Greens formally merge."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/layla-moran-will-kill-off-the-lib-dems-but-i-still-want-her-to-win

    I'm an ex-member but that's a particularly waspish load of piffle from Nick Tyrone who really should know better.

    I suspect Ed will win and we must always remember what someone says in an election and what they do once they've won can often be very different things.

    I'm hoping Ed will face down the "progressives" in the autumn and argue for a form of Orange Book-lite approach in contrast to the high spending high borrowing policies of the Liberal Unionists and the Social Democrats.

    The problem unfortunately is that will leave the LDs where they were in the 1950s - marginalised but correct on most things.
    "correct on most things"

    LOL. No wonder nobody votes for such pompous arses.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Who cares? They are only masks. Get a grip.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Anyone planning a holiday trip to Bradford this year ?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    The main infection vector in Spain was bars and nightclubs among young people where there aren't any rules about mask wearing. Your crusade against masks is very odd.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Aren't most countries enforcing mask wearing? So anywhere it is currently going down.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone planning a holiday trip to Bradford this year ?

    A question no one's ever asked?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Some people’s irrational obsessive opposition to masks really begs belief.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 921
    edited August 2020
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Aren't most countries enforcing mask wearing? So anywhere it is currently going down.
    Here in Switzerland mask wearing is minimal.

    Meant to be worn on public transport but a significant minority are not.

    No need to wear anywhere else and no one is.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone planning a holiday trip to Bradford this year ?

    A question no one's ever asked?
    There used to be lots of pubs in Bradford in the old days 2000s but a lot of them have gone now.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    I don't recall any media reports of such people being infected though.

    Now I'm sure some will have been but they should already be showing in the numbers.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Some people’s irrational obsessive opposition to masks really begs belief.

    I wore a fresh mask today when going shopping.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    The vaccine show is on C4, I'm told it's pretty good.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    I don't recall any media reports of such people being infected though.

    Now I'm sure some will have been but they should already be showing in the numbers.
    In reality the government isn't that bothered about those coming back now - though I think they should quarantine for the safety of people they know - but they are bothered about the potential for it to get really bad in Spain over the next month or so.

    Whether the government should have got everyone's hopes up is another question. It was probably always likely to end up like this, but the government was under pressure to try to get things back to normal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Don't forget we've had lots of people coming back from Spain, and very few of them will have socially distanced there.
    Well, if you are ultimately proven correct then I think the British population can wave bye-bye to overseas holidays for the rest of the year at least. Quite how the Government survives the pressure to shut the international travel industry back down again under such dire circumstances, I don't know.
    My four-fold forecast is the consequence of pubs having been reopened, and many more seed cases. Now, I could be stereotyping, but I suspect the same kind of people who go on holiday to Spain are the ones who are likely to go to the pubs. You combine a few thousand seed cases from Spain and some general re-opening, and what do you expect?

    The problem is that people aren't very good at slowly removing restrictions. It's a binary world out there where either its too dangerous to go out, or it's beer pong time.
    Whether you are right, or whether you are wrong on cases., hospital admissions and deaths is debatable.

    What is not debatable is that many people, possibly millions, are going to lose everything they have because of the measures being taken to avoid the scenaro you sketch out.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from the severe economic hardship that is a direct cause of those measures.

    What is also not debatable is that many people will die from undiagnosed diseases because of the terror causes by the government's propaganda on COVID and the authorities' obsession with it,

    These aren't debatable. They are certain.
    Even if all restrictions were lifted tomorrow a great proportion of the population simply ain't going back to the old way of living until they are vaccinated.

    Another way of looking at it is the economy is going to be f*ed either way given people are not going back to the old ways, so that being the case why not save as many lives as possible?
    And the people who are most afraid to go out are also, for the most part (and quite understandably) the medically vulnerable - those with serious chronic conditions and the old.

    Ummm no

    not remotely accurate from my experience.

    Young (30's) friends who used to spent 3 or 4 nights in pub each week not going out at all.

    Very rich friends (40s) who travel extensively don't leave the house at all any more, everything done on internet shopping.

    You're world is very very different to the one I observe.

    I flew out of Manchester airport on Friday, it was a ghost town, not because the old and vulnerable are scared, but because a huge part of the population is scared and won't re-ignite the economy until they are vaccinated.

    Your starting premise is totally wrong from my observations
    I agree. The perfectly healthy Fox jr and his girlfriend follow the Leicester lockdown carefully. It is the older folks down the pub.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Mask wearing is a reaction to rising case numbers. So your analogy is a like saying "is there anywhere in the world with rising prison numbers that is not also seeing rising crime?".

    But if you want to see some proper research, feel free to read the following:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.21.20128181v1
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone planning a holiday trip to Bradford this year ?

    Some of us don't have a choice!

    I'm sure that the genteel folk of Ilkley are overjoyed to be tarred by the same brush as urban Bradford.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    The main infection vector in Spain was bars and nightclubs among young people where there aren't any rules about mask wearing. Your crusade against masks is very odd.
    Why would people get CV19 from nightclubs and bars, when they could get it outside from mask wearing?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    I still cannot sign into the ordinary site. I use Chrome with Windows 10 on a very hunky tower PC.
    Just saying.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Hmmm.... the same old b*ll*cks on here I see....

    Later peeps :+1:
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:


    The pubs have been open for a month, so if people getting pissed and breathing over each other were going to cause a tsunami wave of cases (as opposed to isolated instances where groups have behaved like knobs or got very unlucky) then one has to assume that this would've started by now.

    That leaves, as the source for this fresh explosion, the holidaymakers. Were there enough of them out in Spain, were there enough cases abroad in the places where most of them were visiting for a sufficiently large number to become infected, and have they then been insufficiently compliant with the demand to quarantine on top of that, for this to trigger off a major new burst of community transmission? You may be right, but colour me sceptical.

    I think there's far more to it than that. Certainly in my neck of the woods I've seen the gradual breakdown of social distancing and even mask wearing to the extent I now look unusual wearing my mask in East Ham High Street.

    Whether this will lead to a "tsunami" of cases is debatable but if we do get more cases and have to endure a re-tightening of restrictions, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
    If that's the case then it's certainly not happening everywhere. My experience round here is that people have given into the mask edict since it came into force and the hospitality establishments appear to be taking their responsibilities seriously. That, coupled with the fact that we're not seeing widespread reports of new clusters all over the country, suggests that real problems are confined to certain localities and that the Government approach of taking a cricket bat to those areas whilst leaving everyone else well alone is currently working.

    As always, however, one has to add the caveat that this may not survive the schools going back. A kiddie-related disaster seems to me to be the most likely cause of a blanket reimposition of restrictions. We should have an answer to this puzzle by the end of September, or possibly sooner if things go seriously pear-shaped in Scotland.
    I was out running errands in Leicester at the weekend. Mask compliance was near universal.
    Are there extra rules in place for local lockdown?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Who cares? They are only masks. Get a grip.
    Its funny. In March people were saying 'look its only one month lockdown at home so the NHS doesn;t get overwhelmed.

    Why are you making such a fuss?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Anyone planning a holiday trip to Bradford this year ?

    Some of us don't have a choice!

    I'm sure that the genteel folk of Ilkley are overjoyed to be tarred by the same brush as urban Bradford.
    They could have been lumped in with Skipton/Craven or Harrogate.

    Instead they got the privilege of subsidising Bradford.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249

    Ave_it said:

    Anyone going abroad this year?

    I don't include Scotland

    I crossed the border into Lancashire last week.

    Anyway, Scotland has told those of us in the pox zone to feck off.
    Business as Usual, then !!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Who cares? They are only masks. Get a grip.
    Its funny. In March people were saying 'look its only one month lockdown at home so the NHS doesn;t get overwhelmed.

    Why are you making such a fuss?
    What point are you trying to make?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Hmm so far not a lot on the actual vaccine, just rehashing what we already know.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why doesn't a brave journalist just name him?
    Ask Katie Holmes :-)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    UAE.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    Some people’s irrational obsessive opposition to masks really begs belief.

    maybe to you , to most people there needs to be a reason to wear them , not sure any case is being made for them at the moment.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited August 2020
    Toms said:

    I still cannot sign into the ordinary site. I use Chrome with Windows 10 on a very hunky tower PC.
    Just saying.

    Neither can I

    And I use chrome on a brand new Samsung S5Etablet

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone planning a holiday trip to Bradford this year ?

    Funny enough I did have a day trip to Bradford in May as I like the place and faniced a walk away from my usual hikes . Used to live there in the late 80s so a bit nostalgic as well
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707

    Some people’s irrational obsessive opposition to masks really begs belief.

    maybe to you , to most people there needs to be a reason to wear them , not sure any case is being made for them at the moment.
    The more people wear them, the more normal activities can be carried out while mitigating the spread of the virus, and the more we can get back to some semblance of normality.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited August 2020

    Some people’s irrational obsessive opposition to masks really begs belief.

    maybe to you , to most people there needs to be a reason to wear them , not sure any case is being made for them at the moment.
    Well even if you are not being irrational you are certainly currently being disingenous - perhaps you disagree with the reasons given and are not persuaded by the case being made, and let us say for sake of argument you are correct in that, but it is certainly true that a case is being made and reasons given.

    Not persuaded by the case does not mean no case is being made.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why doesn't a brave journalist just name him?
    Ask Katie Holmes :-)
    Whilst I'm sure that Katie Holmes has a valuable opinion.

    Perhaps Katie Hopkins might give a more relevant answer :blush:
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    Anecdote report on the Governments food offer. Restaurants and pubs round here are packed

    and here as well - cinema had 10 people in for the film when I went a couple of days ago. Hope cinemas survive this too stringent imposition of mask wearing in a couple of days time
    It may just be that the cinema, as a venue, is on its way out. Not so long ago, massive flat panel ultra HD TV sets were for the rich, and not so long before that such things did not exist. But the world's moved on, and so have internet streaming services.

    Give it another ten years and it's quite possible that the whole sector may have gone the way of VHS video cassettes, rendered obsolete by modern technology.

    well that would be a pity and cinema has survived a lot of tech change starting with TV but at least let it be killed by a culture change not a too stringent covid-19 law.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Who cares? They are only masks. Get a grip.
    Its funny. In March people were saying 'look its only one month lockdown at home so the NHS doesn;t get overwhelmed.

    Why are you making such a fuss?
    I recall it quite differently, as the government communication was quite good at the time on the point that restrictions of one type or another might need to be in place for many months at the least. That's why so many of the coronavirus regulations allow for use beyond even this year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:


    The pubs have been open for a month, so if people getting pissed and breathing over each other were going to cause a tsunami wave of cases (as opposed to isolated instances where groups have behaved like knobs or got very unlucky) then one has to assume that this would've started by now.

    That leaves, as the source for this fresh explosion, the holidaymakers. Were there enough of them out in Spain, were there enough cases abroad in the places where most of them were visiting for a sufficiently large number to become infected, and have they then been insufficiently compliant with the demand to quarantine on top of that, for this to trigger off a major new burst of community transmission? You may be right, but colour me sceptical.

    I think there's far more to it than that. Certainly in my neck of the woods I've seen the gradual breakdown of social distancing and even mask wearing to the extent I now look unusual wearing my mask in East Ham High Street.

    Whether this will lead to a "tsunami" of cases is debatable but if we do get more cases and have to endure a re-tightening of restrictions, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
    If that's the case then it's certainly not happening everywhere. My experience round here is that people have given into the mask edict since it came into force and the hospitality establishments appear to be taking their responsibilities seriously. That, coupled with the fact that we're not seeing widespread reports of new clusters all over the country, suggests that real problems are confined to certain localities and that the Government approach of taking a cricket bat to those areas whilst leaving everyone else well alone is currently working.

    As always, however, one has to add the caveat that this may not survive the schools going back. A kiddie-related disaster seems to me to be the most likely cause of a blanket reimposition of restrictions. We should have an answer to this puzzle by the end of September, or possibly sooner if things go seriously pear-shaped in Scotland.
    I was out running errands in Leicester at the weekend. Mask compliance was near universal.
    Are there extra rules in place for local lockdown?
    Not supposed to meet in private gardens, gyms etc still closed, thats about it. Not a lockdown in any meaningful way.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone planning a holiday trip to Bradford this year ?

    Some of us don't have a choice!

    I'm sure that the genteel folk of Ilkley are overjoyed to be tarred by the same brush as urban Bradford.
    They could have been lumped in with Skipton/Craven or Harrogate.

    Instead they got the privilege of subsidising Bradford.
    Cheaper train fares though.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    England case numbers -

    image

    Are todays number of new cases the highest since June?
    Well, the number for the 29th by specimen date - 925 is similar to mid June.

    The headline number is reporting date and is generally not worth bothering with.
    Do you think there is a trend?

    If so is it down, flat or rising?
    Cases are rising.

    Using the headline number is for Piers Morgan.
    6
    Cases in England are not rising, at least not if this explanation from a reputable source is to be believed (extract edited slightly for sense without the accompanying graphs):

    On first glance it looks like the number of cases in Pillar 2 is trending up and Pillar 1 is trending down... However, what happens if you adjust for any change in testing over time? On the 1st of July – the seven day moving average of testing was 41,109 for Pillar 1 and 43,161 in Pillar 2. By the 31st July, the Pillar 1 seven day average for testing had increased to 49,543 (a 20% increase,) while the Pillar 2 had risen by much more – by 82% to 78,522 tests... When you adjust for the number of tests done and then standardise to per 100,000 tests, Pillar 1 is seen to be still trending down, but Pillar 2 is now flatlining. The increase in the number of cases detected, therefore, could be due to the increase in testing in Pillar 2.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/
    The numbers we see today are - of course - from people who got infected two weeks ago. Given (a) people coming back from holiday in Spain, and (b) less social distancing, it would be very surprising if the actual number of people with CV19 was significantly higher than current positive tests suggest.
    But that's always been the case.

    The question is whether the ratio of actual number infected to known about number infected increasing or decreasing.
    I would be staggered if we don't see a four-fold increase in reported cases over the next two weeks in the UK.
    A prediction to remember.
    Is the prediction due to mask wearing in shops ?
    The prediction is due to tens of thousands of Brits returning from Spain (where they probably haven't been doing much social distancing) combined with the reopening of pubs, and a general increase in the amount of socialising going on.

    But if you want to blame masks, go for it.
    Is that the same Spain where masks have to be worn all the time when outside?

    Is there anywhere in the world where mask wearing is being enforced that is showing a current reduction in cases ?
    Who cares? They are only masks. Get a grip.
    Its funny. In March people were saying 'look its only one month lockdown at home so the NHS doesn;t get overwhelmed.

    Why are you making such a fuss?
    Really? I remember it as being announced that it would be eight or more weeks.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275

    Toms said:

    I still cannot sign into the ordinary site. I use Chrome with Windows 10 on a very hunky tower PC.
    Just saying.

    Neither can I

    And I use chrome on a brand new Samsung S5Etablet

    Have you tried Firefox with Windows 10? It works fine for me.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited August 2020

    Some people’s irrational obsessive opposition to masks really begs belief.

    maybe to you , to most people there needs to be a reason to wear them , not sure any case is being made for them at the moment.
    The reason is that there’s a good chance that they reduce the risk of transmission. That’s all the justification we need.

    It doesn’t matter if you don’t like them. I don’t like them one bit, but tough.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    edited August 2020
    In North Wales today was surprised to find fewer people complying with wearing masks than in England, the opposite of what I was expecting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Some people’s irrational obsessive opposition to masks really begs belief.

    maybe to you , to most people there needs to be a reason to wear them , not sure any case is being made for them at the moment.
    The more people wear them, the more normal activities can be carried out while mitigating the spread of the virus, and the more we can get back to some semblance of normality.
    Quite so. Purely as a matter of practicality we should welcome being able to do more things as a result, even if it means putting up with masks.
This discussion has been closed.