This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
What are you on about? The Muslim Council of GB for example are best placed to help put in place specific guidance in how to celebrate Eid safely in the current circumstances.
No they aren't, they are a self appointed bunch of idiots who claim to speak for all Muslims. If you went out to the streets of Bethnal Green and asked people what the latest MCB view on any given issue was what kind of response do you think you'd get?
No, the best thing to do is the same as always, set the rules and make people stick to them. Muslims managed to celebrate Eid earlier this year without much issue, why should this be any different?
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
You can certainly ask them for the best way to announce this. You can mention that you have spoken to them.
They are not getting to set policy, merely helping deliver the announcement.
"The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies"
When swimming pools reopened the government reached out to the people who run swimming pools and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
When restaurants reopened the government reached out to the people who run restaurants and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
When hotels reopened the government reached out to the people who run hotels and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
It is just common sense to talk and collaborate with people running things were lots of people attend the same place!
In two posts we appear to have gone from 'they are not getting to set policy' to 'they should be getting to set policy'. There's the world of difference between lengthy collaborations on reopening - during which time the virus isn't spreading - and lengthy collaborations on lockdown - during which time it is. Moreover, whereas there may be sector-specific considerations that differ between swimming pools and resturants, there are no differences between groups of Muslim people getting together to celebrate Eid and other groups of people in the affected areas getting together for any other reason. They should all be treated equally, with a single policy framed in line with public health considerations.
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
Lucky we have no problems of our own to concern us.
What, there's still an EU?! I was assured by several PBers that a coordinated Covid aid deal was impossible and presaged the end of the hated EUSSR.
Several PBers said that?
That must have been while I was offline. I never saw any PBers say that.
I did see a number of PBers (myself included) who said thank goodness we got out already so we're not on the hook for the deal.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Without looking for blame, surely we can all agree that it would have been sensible to get some of the higher profile community leaders onside and also to have the good manners to announce it in person rather than the Trumpesque method of tweeting the policy?
Speed trumps 'good manners' in this situation. My critisicms are that certain aspects of the lockdown are nonsensical with pubs and restaurants being allowed to stay open but a couple can't invite a friend round for a few drinks ?
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Without looking for blame, surely we can all agree that it would have been sensible to get some of the higher profile community leaders onside and also to have the good manners to announce it in person rather than the Trumpesque method of tweeting the policy?
Speed trumps 'good manners' in this situation. My critisicms are that certain aspects of the lockdown are nonsensical with pubs and restaurants being allowed to stay open but a couple can't invite a friend round for a few drinks ?
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
You can certainly ask them for the best way to announce this. You can mention that you have spoken to them.
They are not getting to set policy, merely helping deliver the announcement.
"The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies"
When swimming pools reopened the government reached out to the people who run swimming pools and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
When restaurants reopened the government reached out to the people who run restaurants and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
When hotels reopened the government reached out to the people who run hotels and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
It is just common sense to talk and collaborate with people running things were lots of people attend the same place!
In two posts we appear to have gone from 'they are not getting to set policy' to 'they should be getting to set policy'. There's the world of difference between lengthy collaborations on reopening - during which time the virus isn't spreading - and lengthy collaborations on lockdown - during which time it is. Moreover, whereas there may be sector-specific considerations that differ between swimming pools and resturants, there are no differences between groups of Muslim people getting together to celebrate Eid and other groups of people in the affected areas getting together for any other reason. They should all be treated equally, with a single policy framed in line with public health considerations.
I dont know anything about how people celebrate Eid. Id be pretty confident that would also have applied to many of the people responsible for setting the rules. Refusing to talk to people who do know about it out of ideological reasons seems bonkers when it is a potentially significant vector.
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
Lucky we have no problems of our own to concern us.
What, there's still an EU?! I was assured by several PBers that a coordinated Covid aid deal was impossible and presaged the end of the hated EUSSR.
Several PBers said that?
That must have been while I was offline. I never saw any PBers say that.
I did see a number of PBers (myself included) who said thank goodness we got out already so we're not on the hook for the deal.
Come, come, there was jubilation on here a couple of weeks ago that the EU couldn't agree a Covid aid deal. And then it happened and all went quiet.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
I was born in Northern Ireland, where Community Leader = Sociopathic Gangster Murdering Torturing Scumbag In An Expensive Suit. Often with a side order of Racism.
Boris and Chris Whitty live press conference at 12
Who is Boris Whitty? Is he Chris Whitty's husband, or is this a new name for Boris Johnson, who, realising the name Johnson is American for penis, decided that he would also use the surname "Whitty" as this sounded as though he is someone amusing and clown-like ?
That's what I immediately thought too. Then I realized the PM was once again being referred to simply as Boris. It causes such problems and this is yet another - albeit not the most serious of them.
I suggest a style guide such that when the PM is mentioned along with another person he is referred to in the same format as that other person.
Thus in this example: Boris and Chris Whitty - No.
But yes to all of the following (in descending order of formality) -
The PM and the CMO. Boris Johnson and Chris Whitty. Johnson and Whitty. BJ and CW. Boris and Chris. BoJo and ... no that doesn't work, ignore.
Anyway, point is, spoilt for choice and all fine. No excuse for non-compliance.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
Don't they?
Is the Archbishop of Canterbury not a community leader?
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
There does seem to be a correlation between recent hotspots and places where all 3 of the following factors apply: Multi generational high density housing, high levels of poverty, low levels of educational attainment. The difference in London may well be related to higher education levels in the poorer, high density areas.
Labelling it is an Islamic problem is simplistic, but ignoring that multi generational high density housing is more common in Muslim families unhelpful as well.
Didn't we also find out this morning that a spike was occurring in Stamford Hill, home of Orthodox Jews?
Look it may well be that the spikes in the North coincide with Muslim areas of activity and living but I am deeply uneasy that all of a sudden this should be seen as a "Muslim" (ie minority) problem and that we are all advising the MCB how best to control themselves.
Because once you start to blame a minority for the general ills of the country you are in a very bad place.
So felt the Rotherham police services. Thus turning a minor issue into a huge one. At some point, we have to realise that applying the law without fear or favour is more beneficial to minority communities than applying it selectively in the name of sensitivity and community cohesion. The real racism lies in beliefs like 'It's cultural'. 'They won't understand'. 'We'll cause a backlash if we intervene'. 'Best to let them get on with it'.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Without looking for blame, surely we can all agree that it would have been sensible to get some of the higher profile community leaders onside and also to have the good manners to announce it in person rather than the Trumpesque method of tweeting the policy?
Speed trumps 'good manners' in this situation. My critisicms are that certain aspects of the lockdown are nonsensical with pubs and restaurants being allowed to stay open but a couple can't invite a friend round for a few drinks ?
Quite simply, the government are keeping things that are unrelated to Eid open and locking down movements that are expected to happen today because of Eid. There was one in May and there weren't any real complaints at the time. Honestly, if this is still going in November I full expect Leicester, Wembley, Harrow, Southall and Hounslow to get locked down during Diwali and for the temples to be closed over the period. It's a huge unnecessary risk for mass family gatherings to be taking place, especially given that it's the one time of year when distant family meet up and visit older family etc...
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
Id generally agree but on the specific case of organising controls on mass participation event during an epidemic you absolutely need to talk with the organisers directly.
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
Lucky we have no problems of our own to concern us.
What, there's still an EU?! I was assured by several PBers that a coordinated Covid aid deal was impossible and presaged the end of the hated EUSSR.
Several PBers said that?
That must have been while I was offline. I never saw any PBers say that.
I did see a number of PBers (myself included) who said thank goodness we got out already so we're not on the hook for the deal.
I yield to your position as monitor of every PB post, but I think we can start with several proxies for SeanT at the very least..
“ Mr Whittaker said: "What I have seen in my constituency is we have areas in our community and sections of our community that are not taking the pandemic seriously.”
Asked if he was referring to the Muslim community, he replied: "Of course".
"If you look at the areas where we've seen rises and cases, the vast majority - not by any stretch of the imagination all areas - but it is the BAME communities that are not taking this seriously enough."
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
It was on screen and live immediately. Of course not everyone watches the TV nowadays.
What on earth is the problem? I know lots of people hate this government - I'm not exactly a fan myself - but laying into them for using modern means of rapid communication to get an urgent announcement out is one of the most bizarre criticisms I've ever heard.
Curiously enough, those who complain the Govt has acted too precipitously previously were complaining the government had acted too slowly....
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Talk to one community group leader and you have to talk to all. More time, dilution of message, additional confusion, additional clauses and ways to try to keep all happy (with inevitable failure). It is the policy of dunderheads.
Any announcement covering the activities of many people in numerous different situations will result in contradictions and anomalies.
Those who are too dumb or unwilling to use common sense are the issue here. Those who ventilate about twitter, vacillation or a government of idiots are only merely illustrating their own shortfalls and rapidly approaching the crossover into the dumb catagory.
Grow up would be a good move by those adult aged children.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Without looking for blame, surely we can all agree that it would have been sensible to get some of the higher profile community leaders onside and also to have the good manners to announce it in person rather than the Trumpesque method of tweeting the policy?
Speed trumps 'good manners' in this situation. My critisicms are that certain aspects of the lockdown are nonsensical with pubs and restaurants being allowed to stay open but a couple can't invite a friend round for a few drinks ?
I think you can invite a friend round (outside of local lockdown areas) now? But agree entirely with your point, some of the cans and cants are nonsensical, then further confused by can/cant being used for advice rather than laws. For advice should/shouldnt is more appropriate.
“ Mr Whittaker said: "What I have seen in my constituency is we have areas in our community and sections of our community that are not taking the pandemic seriously.”
Asked if he was referring to the Muslim community, he replied: "Of course".
"If you look at the areas where we've seen rises and cases, the vast majority - not by any stretch of the imagination all areas - but it is the BAME communities that are not taking this seriously enough."
“ Mr Whittaker said: "What I have seen in my constituency is we have areas in our community and sections of our community that are not taking the pandemic seriously.”
Asked if he was referring to the Muslim community, he replied: "Of course".
"If you look at the areas where we've seen rises and cases, the vast majority - not by any stretch of the imagination all areas - but it is the BAME communities that are not taking this seriously enough."
“ He added: "I've been challenging our local leaders for... three weeks, asking what we are doing to target these areas to let people know that this is a very serious problem.
"Until people take it seriously, we're not going to get rid of this pandemic.
"We have areas of high multiple occupancy who are in the same boat... and it doesn't specifically have to be in the Asian community, but that is the largest proportion.
"Look at the areas. You've got Bradford, Calderdale, Kirklees. Bradford, in particular, and Kirklees have two of the largest populations in West Yorkshire."
Pressed on whether he was talking about immigrant communities in those areas, he responded: "Yeah, well, immigrant and Asian population".
I dont know anything about how people celebrate Eid. Id be pretty confident that would also have applied to many of the people responsible for setting the rules. Refusing to talk to people who do know about it out of ideological reasons seems bonkers when it is a potentially significant vector.
How people celebrate Eid doesn't affect how the virus spreads. The government should put rules in place to check likely ways in which the virus spreads, in accordance with guidance from immunologists, and people should follow those rules. For some it may mean not being able to celebrate Eid; for others it means not being able to take communion; for many it means not being able to celebrate birthdays, weddings or funerals. Special interest groups should provide advice to their members on how to apply the government rules; they should not set those rules.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
Indeed, also the idea that Imams suddenly speak for the whole Muslim population is actually racist.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about these Government rules and regulations after they have first been announced in the social media, which believe it or not many millions of us choose not to use. Whereabouts can one find the definitive do's and don'ts?
With parliament not sitting and Mrs Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha on holiday in Scotland, there is obviously no legislation, but I presume that the government must issue a Statutory Order, and publish it. Where is this to be read?
Many thanks Nigelb for directing me to the Government's specific regulations which were introduced from midnight last night for the restricted areas. Quite how one is supposed to access this detailed information if you are neither computer literate nor like many millions of others do not subscribe to the likes of Twitter or Facebook, etc I have no idea.
I dont know anything about how people celebrate Eid. Id be pretty confident that would also have applied to many of the people responsible for setting the rules. Refusing to talk to people who do know about it out of ideological reasons seems bonkers when it is a potentially significant vector.
How people celebrate Eid doesn't affect how the virus spreads. The government should put rules in place to check likely ways in which the virus spreads, in accordance with guidance from immunologists, and people should follow those rules. For some it may mean not being able to celebrate Eid; for others it means not being able to take communion; for many it means not being able to celebrate birthdays, weddings or funerals. Special interest groups should provide advice to their members on how to apply the government rules; they should not set those rules.
That is absolutely what has happened. Even the CMO and CSO just provide advice, let alone the leaders of a chain of mosques. The law is set by the cabinet and parliament.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Talk to one community group leader and you have to talk to all. More time, dilution of message, additional confusion, additional clauses and ways to try to keep all happy (with inevitable failure). It is the policy of dunderheads.
Any announcement covering the activities of many people in numerous different situations will result in contradictions and anomalies.
Those who are too dumb or unwilling to use common sense are the issue here. Those who ventilate about twitter, vacillation or a government of idiots are only merely illustrating their own shortfalls and rapidly approaching the crossover into the dumb catagory.
Grow up would be a good move by those adult aged children.
Only a child would see it as a weakness for the government to talk to those they are governing.
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
hmmm sky has 8.8 million people watching it in the uk, twitter has 13.7 million. Seems like they went for the higher audience.
“ Mr Whittaker said: "What I have seen in my constituency is we have areas in our community and sections of our community that are not taking the pandemic seriously.”
Asked if he was referring to the Muslim community, he replied: "Of course".
"If you look at the areas where we've seen rises and cases, the vast majority - not by any stretch of the imagination all areas - but it is the BAME communities that are not taking this seriously enough."
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
Indeed, also the idea that Imams suddenly speak for the whole Muslim population is actually racist.
You’ve created an argument that nobody is having. I suggested that the Government speak to a body such as the Muslim Council of Britain to develop specific guidelines for celebrating Eid safely. It actually looks like they have done that.
Do you think the Government shouldn’t have spoken to representatives of the Pub industry before they allowed the reopening of pubs?
If Mr Whittaker has evidence for that then he should provide it, if he hasn't then he should lose the whip. What a disgraceful thing to say.
He's right. I've been looking at the data, it's very, very obvious that Asians are not taking the virus seriously at all. I've seen it first hand with invites to large family gatherings, 30-40 people in someone's front room all talking over each other. The NW London area has had worse infection rates than N or W London and Northwick park hospital was a disaster zone for a very long time. Asians have had a poor virus period.
I think it's also because in South Asian culture there's no such thing as personal space. It's not as bad in the UK but it's still not great.
I dont know anything about how people celebrate Eid. Id be pretty confident that would also have applied to many of the people responsible for setting the rules. Refusing to talk to people who do know about it out of ideological reasons seems bonkers when it is a potentially significant vector.
How people celebrate Eid doesn't affect how the virus spreads. The government should put rules in place to check likely ways in which the virus spreads, in accordance with guidance from immunologists, and people should follow those rules. For some it may mean not being able to celebrate Eid; for others it means not being able to take communion; for many it means not being able to celebrate birthdays, weddings or funerals. Special interest groups should provide advice to their members on how to apply the government rules; they should not set those rules.
That is absolutely what has happened.
I know. That's why I'm supporting the government, against someone who argued "The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies".
I dont know anything about how people celebrate Eid. Id be pretty confident that would also have applied to many of the people responsible for setting the rules. Refusing to talk to people who do know about it out of ideological reasons seems bonkers when it is a potentially significant vector.
How people celebrate Eid doesn't affect how the virus spreads. The government should put rules in place to check likely ways in which the virus spreads, in accordance with guidance from immunologists, and people should follow those rules. For some it may mean not being able to celebrate Eid; for others it means not being able to take communion; for many it means not being able to celebrate birthdays, weddings or funerals. Special interest groups should provide advice to their members on how to apply the government rules; they should not set those rules.
That is absolutely what has happened.
I know. That's why I'm supporting the government, against someone who argued "The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies".
Ok, well they did both, they did collaborate, because its common sense, and they then set the law which is their responsibility.
On topic, the way technology adoption develops is just bananas. I remember when people used to mock Twitter saying they didn't care what people were having for breakfast or whatever. They wouldn't have believed you if you'd told them that within 10 years they'd need it to find out whether they're allowed to leave their house.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about these Government rules and regulations after they have first been announced in the social media, which believe it or not many millions of us choose not to use. Whereabouts can one find the definitive do's and don'ts?
With parliament not sitting and Mrs Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha on holiday in Scotland, there is obviously no legislation, but I presume that the government must issue a Statutory Order, and publish it. Where is this to be read?
Many thanks Nigelb for directing me to the Government's specific regulations which were introduced from midnight last night for the restricted areas. Quite how one is supposed to access this detailed information if you are neither computer literate nor like many millions of others do not subscribe to the likes of Twitter or Facebook, etc I have no idea.
Probably in the same way as you would have done before Twitter and Facebook existed, although now you have a lot more options.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
But they are still there, the rotary chairman, the lodge grand master, vicars, even councilors and trade union leaders, they are all community leaders and people do on occasions look to such people for guidance.
If Mr Whittaker has evidence for that then he should provide it, if he hasn't then he should lose the whip. What a disgraceful thing to say.
He's right. I've been looking at the data, it's very, very obvious that Asians are not taking the virus seriously at all. I've seen it first hand with invites to large family gatherings, 30-40 people in someone's front room all talking over each other. The NW London area has had worse infection rates than N or W London and Northwick park hospital was a disaster zone for a very long time. Asians have had a poor virus period.
I think it's also because in South Asian culture there's no such thing as personal space. It's not as bad in the UK but it's still not great.
I was emailing with a Finnish friend last night. Lives in one of those parts of Finland where social distancing is measured in 10s of Km. Apparently all the cases he has heard about - the sauna was the suspected spreading point. Talk about stereotypes.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
So, if they were cancelling Xmas instead of Eid, you would think it wrong if the Bishop of Winchester was asked to help soften the blow?
THose changes won't be paused, with the autumn coming they will be permanent, and in all probability added to. Lockdown will be tightened again undoubtedly now.
That life you used to have? its gone. And it isn;t coming back any time soon.
We're looking at large scale unrest here at some juncture.
THose changes won't be paused, with the autumn coming they will be permanent, and in all probability added to. Lockdown will be tightened again undoubtedly now.
That life you used to have? its gone. And it isn;t coming back any time soon.
We're looking at large scale unrest here at some juncture.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
So, if they were cancelling Xmas instead of Eid, you would think it wrong if the Bishop of Winchester was asked to help soften the blow?
Hmmm - so you think there is a religious element to Christmas?
What is that, please?
Surely, an announcement by the owner of Westfields on the subject of Christmas being cancelled would be more appropriate?
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
So, if they were cancelling Xmas instead of Eid, you would think it wrong if the Bishop of Winchester was asked to help soften the blow?
Hmmm - so you think there is a religious element to Christmas?
What is that, please?
Surely, an announcement by the owner of Westfields on the subject of Christmas being cancelled would be more appropriate?
If Mr Whittaker has evidence for that then he should provide it, if he hasn't then he should lose the whip. What a disgraceful thing to say.
He's right. I've been looking at the data, it's very, very obvious that Asians are not taking the virus seriously at all. I've seen it first hand with invites to large family gatherings, 30-40 people in someone's front room all talking over each other. The NW London area has had worse infection rates than N or W London and Northwick park hospital was a disaster zone for a very long time. Asians have had a poor virus period.
I think it's also because in South Asian culture there's no such thing as personal space. It's not as bad in the UK but it's still not great.
I was emailing with a Finnish friend last night. Lives in one of those parts of Finland where social distancing is measured in 10s of Km. Apparently all the cases he has heard about - the sauna was the suspected spreading point. Talk about stereotypes.
So now on a Friday afternoon the government blows planned wedding receptions for tomorrow out of the water. How much more s**t and clueless can they behave?
Makes sense but I feel awful for anyone who had their wedding reception rescheduled for during that period.
F8ck them, f8ck the people who booked holidays and people who have lost their jobs and expect others, the millions waiting months and years for non covid health treatment, those sickening with mental health issues.
The law of 'R' must be obeyed. Chris Whitty must be obeyed. The NHS must not be put under any pressure. Those beds must stay empty
At all costs.
Does anybody, anybody out there still think this insanity is worth it?
A new test powered by artificial intelligence (AI) could be capable of identifying coronavirus within one hour, according to new research. Its developers say it can rapidly screen people arriving at hospitals for Covid-19 and accurately predict whether or not they have the disease, the Press Association reports. The Curial AI test has been developed by a team at the University of Oxford and assesses data typically gathered from patients within the first hour of arriving in an emergency department - such as blood tests and vital signs - to determine the chance of a patient testing positive for Covid-19. Testing for the virus currently involves the molecular analysis of a nose and throat swab, with results having a typical turnaround time of between 12 and 48 hours.
So now on a Friday afternoon the government blows planned wedding receptions for tomorrow out of the water. How much more s**t and clueless can they behave?
They even released guidance this very morning that wedding were allowed in the north west!
THose changes won't be paused, with the autumn coming they will be permanent, and in all probability added to. Lockdown will be tightened again undoubtedly now.
That life you used to have? its gone. And it isn;t coming back any time soon.
We're looking at large scale unrest here at some juncture.
No we are not. Overwhelming majority of people don't want to either die, or be responsible for killing their elderly loved ones. Within a year there should be a vaccine, but until then I can live without a cinema or bowling alley if need be.
If Mr Whittaker has evidence for that then he should provide it, if he hasn't then he should lose the whip. What a disgraceful thing to say.
He's right. I've been looking at the data, it's very, very obvious that Asians are not taking the virus seriously at all. I've seen it first hand with invites to large family gatherings, 30-40 people in someone's front room all talking over each other. The NW London area has had worse infection rates than N or W London and Northwick park hospital was a disaster zone for a very long time. Asians have had a poor virus period.
I think it's also because in South Asian culture there's no such thing as personal space. It's not as bad in the UK but it's still not great.
I can't comment on your experience - it differs to mine, where I've seen no evidence that my (south) Asian friends/colleagues are acting any differently to anyone else, but they're all well educated professionals with nice houses who have been able to follow lockdown and distancing rules without much difficulty. I'm white, my experience may be much more limited than that of posters from within those communities.
I'd be interested in any analysis that accounts for both ethnic group and an SES or deprivation measure as those are often correlated too. I suspect it may be more of a problem of things being harder (lockdown harder in a tiny house with limited outside space, greater number of jobs that cannot be done from home for example) for those less economically well off, although there may also be cultural differences around the size and frequency of typical family gatherings.
If looking a hospital use, it's also important to consider that it appears that BAME individuals are at greater risk of more severity, so more people ending up in hospital isn't necessarily that useful an indicator.
So now on a Friday afternoon the government blows planned wedding receptions for tomorrow out of the water. How much more s**t and clueless can they behave?
Who planned their wedding reception on the first day after the planned (not confirmed) date of allowing them again?
So now on a Friday afternoon the government blows planned wedding receptions for tomorrow out of the water. How much more s**t and clueless can they behave?
They even released guidance this very morning that wedding were allowed in the north west!
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
So, if they were cancelling Xmas instead of Eid, you would think it wrong if the Bishop of Winchester was asked to help soften the blow?
Hmmm - so you think there is a religious element to Christmas?
What is that, please?
Surely, an announcement by the owner of Westfields on the subject of Christmas being cancelled would be more appropriate?
As an atheist myself, even I can see that Christmas has a religious element - you know, the birth of a man who, a bit later on, was nailed to a cross and then hailed as the son of God and who 1/4 of the world's population are supposedly to following his creed.
So yes. Bishops etc. Clerics and so on. Even if I think they are deluded and mumbling second-rate incantations and pleadings into empty air because there is no one "upstairs", for many people they are community figures who command respect.
So now on a Friday afternoon the government blows planned wedding receptions for tomorrow out of the water. How much more s**t and clueless can they behave?
Who planned their wedding reception on the first day after the planned (not confirmed) date of allowing them again?
Also, a reception up to 30. So no big fancy weddings anyway.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Yes, the whole concept of 'community leaders' is patronising, verging on racist. No-one talks about 'community leaders' in respect of the white population of, say, Winchester.
So, if they were cancelling Xmas instead of Eid, you would think it wrong if the Bishop of Winchester was asked to help soften the blow?
Hmmm - so you think there is a religious element to Christmas?
What is that, please?
Surely, an announcement by the owner of Westfields on the subject of Christmas being cancelled would be more appropriate?
Westfields? Splitter!
INTU please . . .
LOL
Both the local Catholic and CoE God Botherers love my idea that we should abolish Christmas.
And replace it with something else. Maybe with a religious theme. Possibly even Christian....
Makes sense but I feel awful for anyone who had their wedding reception rescheduled for during that period.
F8ck them, f8ck the people who booked holidays and people who have lost their jobs and expect others, the millions waiting months and years for non covid health treatment, those sickening with mental health issues.
The law of 'R' must be obeyed. Chris Whitty must be obeyed. The NHS must not be put under any pressure. Those beds must stay empty
At all costs.
Does anybody, anybody out there still think this insanity is worth it?
Yes.
The overwhelming majority of people think it. And that will result in less job losses than allowing carnage to spread unchecked.
Where are those PBers who said the virus would burn out and disappear?
I'm still amazed that there are people who are talking about elimination. It's just not going to be possible. "Control the virus" is the right message, we aren't going to eliminate it without a vaccine.
THose changes won't be paused, with the autumn coming they will be permanent, and in all probability added to. Lockdown will be tightened again undoubtedly now.
That life you used to have? its gone. And it isn;t coming back any time soon.
We're looking at large scale unrest here at some juncture.
No we are not. Overwhelming majority of people don't want to either die, or be responsible for killing their elderly loved ones. Within a year there should be a vaccine, but until then I can live without a cinema or bowling alley if need be.
If you can't go and hug your grandparents because of lockdown what does it matter if you have gone to the pub that day before you don't go and hug them?
The original press (and original BBC) headlines were also poor. 'The North' is not in lockdown, just some areas in the North. God's favoured part of God's own county (N Yorks), for example, is completely unaffected.
Comments
No, the best thing to do is the same as always, set the rules and make people stick to them. Muslims managed to celebrate Eid earlier this year without much issue, why should this be any different?
That must have been while I was offline. I never saw any PBers say that.
I did see a number of PBers (myself included) who said thank goodness we got out already so we're not on the hook for the deal.
https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1289094860801179648?s=20
I'm not sure it is.
Meanwhile, where would I feel safer - visiting Spoons or visiting family. Apparently I am wrong in my perception.
I am ComunityLeaderPhobic.
I suggest a style guide such that when the PM is mentioned along with another person he is referred to in the same format as that other person.
Thus in this example: Boris and Chris Whitty - No.
But yes to all of the following (in descending order of formality) -
The PM and the CMO.
Boris Johnson and Chris Whitty.
Johnson and Whitty.
BJ and CW.
Boris and Chris.
BoJo and ... no that doesn't work, ignore.
Anyway, point is, spoilt for choice and all fine. No excuse for non-compliance.
Is the Archbishop of Canterbury not a community leader?
https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1289153469513949186?s=20
Asked if he was referring to the Muslim community, he replied: "Of course".
"If you look at the areas where we've seen rises and cases, the vast majority - not by any stretch of the imagination all areas - but it is the BAME communities that are not taking this seriously enough."
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1289138554552160256?s=21
More time, dilution of message, additional confusion, additional clauses and ways to try to keep all happy (with inevitable failure). It is the policy of dunderheads.
Any announcement covering the activities of many people in numerous different situations will result in contradictions and anomalies.
Those who are too dumb or unwilling to use common sense are the issue here. Those who ventilate about twitter, vacillation or a government of idiots are only merely illustrating their own shortfalls and rapidly approaching the crossover into the dumb catagory.
Grow up would be a good move by those adult aged children.
"Until people take it seriously, we're not going to get rid of this pandemic.
"We have areas of high multiple occupancy who are in the same boat... and it doesn't specifically have to be in the Asian community, but that is the largest proportion.
"Look at the areas. You've got Bradford, Calderdale, Kirklees. Bradford, in particular, and Kirklees have two of the largest populations in West Yorkshire."
Pressed on whether he was talking about immigrant communities in those areas, he responded: "Yeah, well, immigrant and Asian population".
In contrast to:
https://twitter.com/GOVUK/status/1280871249426743296?s=20
What is wrong with you?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-52874330
Edit. Not as fast as Scott.
The Rocket ahead of the game as ever.
Do you think the Government shouldn’t have spoken to representatives of the Pub industry before they allowed the reopening of pubs?
Your line of argument is just ridiculous.
I think it's also because in South Asian culture there's no such thing as personal space. It's not as bad in the UK but it's still not great.
Chr8st.
Is it Chris?
That life you used to have? its gone. And it isn;t coming back any time soon.
We're looking at large scale unrest here at some juncture.
What is that, please?
Surely, an announcement by the owner of Westfields on the subject of Christmas being cancelled would be more appropriate?
INTU please . . .
The law of 'R' must be obeyed. Chris Whitty must be obeyed. The NHS must not be put under any pressure. Those beds must stay empty
At all costs.
Does anybody, anybody out there still think this insanity is worth it?
A new test powered by artificial intelligence (AI) could be capable of identifying coronavirus within one hour, according to new research.
Its developers say it can rapidly screen people arriving at hospitals for Covid-19 and accurately predict whether or not they have the disease, the Press Association reports.
The Curial AI test has been developed by a team at the University of Oxford and assesses data typically gathered from patients within the first hour of arriving in an emergency department - such as blood tests and vital signs - to determine the chance of a patient testing positive for Covid-19.
Testing for the virus currently involves the molecular analysis of a nose and throat swab, with results having a typical turnaround time of between 12 and 48 hours.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/jul/31/coronavirus-live-news-england-tightens-restrictions-who-says-young-people-behind-some-spikes
(at 12:15)
I'd be interested in any analysis that accounts for both ethnic group and an SES or deprivation measure as those are often correlated too. I suspect it may be more of a problem of things being harder (lockdown harder in a tiny house with limited outside space, greater number of jobs that cannot be done from home for example) for those less economically well off, although there may also be cultural differences around the size and frequency of typical family gatherings.
If looking a hospital use, it's also important to consider that it appears that BAME individuals are at greater risk of more severity, so more people ending up in hospital isn't necessarily that useful an indicator.
So yes. Bishops etc. Clerics and so on. Even if I think they are deluded and mumbling second-rate incantations and pleadings into empty air because there is no one "upstairs", for many people they are community figures who command respect.
Both the local Catholic and CoE God Botherers love my idea that we should abolish Christmas.
And replace it with something else. Maybe with a religious theme. Possibly even Christian....
The overwhelming majority of people think it. And that will result in less job losses than allowing carnage to spread unchecked.
Come on, nobody is going to believe that lie! 😂