Do you think we’ll learn the lessons of the ISC’s Russia report about why letting in the people and money from an aggressive and authoritarian state is not a good idea?
Me neither.
There has been an about-turn in our relations with China and Russia. Perhaps you didn't notice.
Govts are one thing, oligarchs and crooks are another ...
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
Realistically would it be possible to impose a local lockdown purely on the London Borough of Hackney? I doubt it.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Yes, while there are issues amongst the Muslim community, the area in Leicester most affected is substantially Hindu.
... A presentation was also reportedly made last week to Downing Street which included very unfavorable internal polling.
... The broader context of Carlaw’s resignation is the disarray the pro-Union side finds itself in nine months before the Holyrood election.
The Scottish Tories, the supposed standard bearers of unionism, find themselves rudderless, while a growing number of figures are calling on “invisible” Richard Leonard to stand down as Labour leader.
Sturgeon’s poll ratings, by contrast, are soaring...
It was a bit unlucky for you that Alex- "Russia Today"-Salmond played the "once in a lifetime" referendum a bit too early wasn't it? When he used that phrase, do you think it was a Putin type propaganda lie, or does he have a completely different understanding of the word "generation", or perhaps even the word "once"?
After an election it is the winner's manifesto e.g. "Vote No to keep Scotland in the EU" that is tested, not the loser's.
And we’re still waiting for the Cameron/Miliband/Clegg “Pledge” to be implemented.
We're still waiting for Scotland to take over the devolved welfare powers - delayed to 2024.....
The Scottish Government has been slammed for “a betrayal” by opposition parties after announcing a three-year delay to the full devolution of a raft of welfare powers.
Social security secretary Shirley-Anne Somerville told MSPs that Scotland’s new benefits agency Social Security Scotland would not be able to fully administer the 11 benefits until 2024 – not 2021 as planned.
Somerville’s predecessor Jeane Freeman had previously pledged to implement the devolved powers, including over Personal Independence Payments (PIP) for disabled people, by the end of this parliamentary term.
But oh no, lets moan about the "Westminster power grab" when you won't even take responsibility for powers already devolved to you....
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
I am enjoying the stones on people saying they've moved too rapidly.
Starmer's outrage seems very badly misplaced.
Starmer has a job to do. The government must be either too early or too late, and enforce too much or too little. And when there is nothing else then the way it is communicated must be attacked. This is pure routine stuff. Nothing to see.
Or maybe he could party politics to one side and put the public health of the country first? Like the Mayor of Greater Manchester has done?
I know, what am I thinking? Starmer doesn't care about the health of northerners . . . there's no reason he needs to try and win around northern voters in the future because he has the red wall to rely on. Oh wait . . .
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Are you suggesting these agreed policies would have been enforced by law?
If not, perhaps Government data suggests that actual adherence would have been low.
I don’t know. I am uncomfortable with this stuff being a criminal offence, but recognise that it is needed for greater adherence like you say.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Without looking for blame, surely we can all agree that it would have been sensible to get some of the higher profile community leaders onside and also to have the good manners to announce it in person rather than the Trumpesque method of tweeting the policy?
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
I am enjoying the stones on people saying they've moved too rapidly.
Exactly. The Government makes a quick decision intended to save lives and disseminates it as swiftly as possibly, and what do the usual suspects provide? A whole load of bad-faith moaning about the method by which the message was communicated.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
I don’t think there’s any “fault” involved, but Eid is clearly a risk factor in the coming week. Just like Christmas will be. This is especially the case in areas where the rate of infection is higher.
But we're slightly back to the Cheltenham thing. How dare people go to Cheltenham when all the while the London Underground was ferrying 2m people a day up each others' armpits.
Eid is clearly a risk factor but can you see the selective element of it.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
Realistically would it be possible to impose a local lockdown purely on the London Borough of Hackney? I doubt it.
I don't see why not, though Islam in London is more than just Hackney and Tower Hamlets etc
But despite all the talk about Eid, I see no evidence there's any concern there at the minute as the data shows the virus is up here in the North West and not in the capital. So it makes sense for us in the North West to be more concerned regardless of race or religion.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
I am enjoying the stones on people saying they've moved too rapidly.
Exactly. The Government makes a quick decision intended to save lives and disseminates it as swiftly as possibly, and what do the usual suspects provide? A whole load of bad-faith moaning about the method by which the message was communicated.
Of course.
The Government is not immune from criticism. They can simultaneously do a good thing in one area, but have areas to improve in another. It literally comes with the job.
Your inability to see anything other than black and white is again obvious. Of course.
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
I am enjoying the stones on people saying they've moved too rapidly.
Air of panic though. Hancock's voice was cracking on the radio this morning.
So they're taking it seriously and this isn't an action they'd have wanted to take?
I should bloody well hope so! If they were flippant and had an air of la-dee-da about it I'd be more concerned.
Sure but you probably didn't hear the interview since it was on the BBC rather than Netflix.
The impression was of a man at his wits end with his boss. One's heart went out.
One thing I’ve noticed that the current devolution settlement really amplifies the concept of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland being almost like colonies or dominions. I know they aren’t - but if you think about it, the setup is not too different.
The Prime Minister is effectively the Prime Minister of England, and for the most part governs and legislates only for England. This is especially obvious at the moment where Health is a huge focus. It therefore focuses minds when the Scottish Government wants to do something that is outside of their “competancies” or in a grey area (amplified by Brexit), it looks like them having to beg mother England for permission. I’m sure this is not lost on people in Scotland.
I’m sure I’ve not explained myself very well - but the constitutional settlement needs looking at desperately if the union is to last. The status quo just doesn’t really make much sense. (I know, Tony Blair New Labour bla bla).
I fear that bus has left. NI was always different as it's obvious to anyone who can read a map that in the long run Ireland should be a single entity.
Scotland and Wales and England of course should be the same, but the deal whereby devolution started is for Scotland ultimately a real threat as instead of being content with devolution Scotland started acting as if it has unmet grievances in only having its own parliament and has been given an expensive platform to do it from. In the real world the population of Scotland is almost the same as Yorkshire, and should be considered in the same light. Sadly it may well be too late.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
To an extent this has been happening, its probably just not noticed by those of us that arent interested!
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
Realistically would it be possible to impose a local lockdown purely on the London Borough of Hackney? I doubt it.
I don't see why not, though Islam in London is more than just Hackney and Tower Hamlets etc
But despite all the talk about Eid, I see no evidence there's any concern there at the minute as the data shows the virus is up here in the North West and not in the capital. So it makes sense for us in the North West to be more concerned regardless of race or religion.
I’m just thinking that the movement of people in Hackney to other London boroughs and back is probably greater than those in Greater Manchester. I don’t know this, but I can imagine it is true.
I’m not suggesting this is all driven by Eid, I just thought it might be something the Government might want to get ahead on.
One thing I’ve noticed that the current devolution settlement really amplifies the concept of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland being almost like colonies or dominions. I know they aren’t - but if you think about it, the setup is not too different.
The Prime Minister is effectively the Prime Minister of England, and for the most part governs and legislates only for England. This is especially obvious at the moment where Health is a huge focus. It therefore focuses minds when the Scottish Government wants to do something that is outside of their “competancies” or in a grey area (amplified by Brexit), it looks like them having to beg mother England for permission. I’m sure this is not lost on people in Scotland.
I’m sure I’ve not explained myself very well - but the constitutional settlement needs looking at desperately if the union is to last. The status quo just doesn’t really make much sense. (I know, Tony Blair New Labour bla bla).
Scotland has its own Parliament and MPs at Westminster.
England does not have its own Parliament, Westminster is a UK Parliament
One thing I’ve noticed that the current devolution settlement really amplifies the concept of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland being almost like colonies or dominions. I know they aren’t - but if you think about it, the setup is not too different.
The Prime Minister is effectively the Prime Minister of England, and for the most part governs and legislates only for England. This is especially obvious at the moment where Health is a huge focus. It therefore focuses minds when the Scottish Government wants to do something that is outside of their “competancies” or in a grey area (amplified by Brexit), it looks like them having to beg mother England for permission. I’m sure this is not lost on people in Scotland.
I’m sure I’ve not explained myself very well - but the constitutional settlement needs looking at desperately if the union is to last. The status quo just doesn’t really make much sense. (I know, Tony Blair New Labour bla bla).
Scotland has its own Parliament and MPs at Westminster.
England does not have its own Parliament, Westminster is a UK Parliament
As usual you just say random facts out of context. You’re stating the obvious, but it’s irrelevant.
It doesn’t matter that Scotland has MPs in Westminster. The principle is still there. The optics are not good.
... A presentation was also reportedly made last week to Downing Street which included very unfavorable internal polling.
... The broader context of Carlaw’s resignation is the disarray the pro-Union side finds itself in nine months before the Holyrood election.
The Scottish Tories, the supposed standard bearers of unionism, find themselves rudderless, while a growing number of figures are calling on “invisible” Richard Leonard to stand down as Labour leader.
Sturgeon’s poll ratings, by contrast, are soaring...
It was a bit unlucky for you that Alex- "Russia Today"-Salmond played the "once in a lifetime" referendum a bit too early wasn't it? When he used that phrase, do you think it was a Putin type propaganda lie, or does he have a completely different understanding of the word "generation", or perhaps even the word "once"?
After an election it is the winner's manifesto e.g. "Vote No to keep Scotland in the EU" that is tested, not the loser's.
Most Scottish Leave voters voted SNP in 2015
So?
Brexit has made little difference to independence polling, the highest percentage of Remain voters from any of the main Scottish parties was in the Scottish LDs, plenty of Scottish nationalists are also anti EU e.g. Jim Sillars
On the contrary, Brexit is another nail in the coffin of the United Kingdom. It is not just the European issue itself that is the problem, but also the symbolism of Westminster forcing a policy on Scotland, despite both referendum and Holyrood being opposed. A Union of equals would have negotiated a more acceptable compromise such as EEA, or a Northern Ireland style internal UK border.
The polling shows otherwise, including Don't Knows Yes is not over 50% in any Scottish independence poll.
If Brexit was key Yes would be on 60%+ even including Don't Knows but as a diehard Remainer you can only see through the prism of Brexit
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
To an extent this has been happening, its probably just not noticed by those of us that arent interested!
... A presentation was also reportedly made last week to Downing Street which included very unfavorable internal polling.
... The broader context of Carlaw’s resignation is the disarray the pro-Union side finds itself in nine months before the Holyrood election.
The Scottish Tories, the supposed standard bearers of unionism, find themselves rudderless, while a growing number of figures are calling on “invisible” Richard Leonard to stand down as Labour leader.
Sturgeon’s poll ratings, by contrast, are soaring...
It was a bit unlucky for you that Alex- "Russia Today"-Salmond played the "once in a lifetime" referendum a bit too early wasn't it? When he used that phrase, do you think it was a Putin type propaganda lie, or does he have a completely different understanding of the word "generation", or perhaps even the word "once"?
After an election it is the winner's manifesto e.g. "Vote No to keep Scotland in the EU" that is tested, not the loser's.
Most Scottish Leave voters voted SNP in 2015
So?
Brexit has made little difference to independence polling, the highest percentage of Remain voters from any of the main Scottish parties was in the Scottish LDs, plenty of Scottish nationalists are also anti EU e.g. Jim Sillars
On the contrary, Brexit is another nail in the coffin of the United Kingdom. It is not just the European issue itself that is the problem, but also the symbolism of Westminster forcing a policy on Scotland, despite both referendum and Holyrood being opposed. A Union of equals would have negotiated a more acceptable compromise such as EEA, or a Northern Ireland style internal UK border.
The polling shows otherwise, including Don't Knows Yes is not over 50% in any Scottish independence poll.
If Brexit was key Yes would be on 60%+ even including Don't Knows but as a diehard Remainer you can only see through the prism of Brexit
Your “including don’t knows” qualification is really telling.
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
There does seem to be a correlation between recent hotspots and places where all 3 of the following factors apply: Multi generational high density housing, high levels of poverty, low levels of educational attainment. The difference in London may well be related to higher education levels in the poorer, high density areas.
Labelling it is an Islamic problem is simplistic, but ignoring that multi generational high density housing is more common in Muslim families unhelpful as well.
Do you think we’ll learn the lessons of the ISC’s Russia report about why letting in the people and money from an aggressive and authoritarian state is not a good idea?
Me neither.
There has been an about-turn in our relations with China and Russia. Perhaps you didn't notice.
Well, let’s see what is actually done about stopping Chinese “investors” buying up property and what actual due diligence is done on the sources of their wealth.
There is a widespread misunderstanding that devolution only occurred in 1999. This is, of course, nonsense.
Political devolution occurred in 1999, however, administrative devolution in most areas (law, education, health, welfare, housing, agriculture, transport etc) existed in the period 1707-1999.
What the 1999 reform did was bring political accountability to a long-entrenched system.
One thing I’ve noticed that the current devolution settlement really amplifies the concept of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland being almost like colonies or dominions. I know they aren’t - but if you think about it, the setup is not too different.
The Prime Minister is effectively the Prime Minister of England, and for the most part governs and legislates only for England. This is especially obvious at the moment where Health is a huge focus. It therefore focuses minds when the Scottish Government wants to do something that is outside of their “competancies” or in a grey area (amplified by Brexit), it looks like them having to beg mother England for permission. I’m sure this is not lost on people in Scotland.
I’m sure I’ve not explained myself very well - but the constitutional settlement needs looking at desperately if the union is to last. The status quo just doesn’t really make much sense. (I know, Tony Blair New Labour bla bla).
You are 100% correct.
This is all part and parcel the much warned about West Lothian Question.
Tony Blair was a constitutional vandal and in hindsight was one of the worst Prime Ministers of all time. A reverse Midas, everything he has touched has ultimately turned to shit.
This could have all been avoided had there been an English Parliament at the same time as Scottish, Welsh and NI devolution. And if you're not prepared to have that, there shouldn't have been Scottish, Welsh and NI devolution.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
To an extent this has been happening, its probably just not noticed by those of us that arent interested!
"The Muslim Council of Britain clarified that Eid prayers for Eid al-Adha are not impacted by the new restriction"
which to me reads as pray and celebrate as normal. However the MCB have issued clear guidance over a week ago emphasising safety measures like being outdoors, limit numbers, no hugging or shaking hands etc.
Without seeing the MCB guidance, I'd have a pretty negative view of the one liner on ITV.
There is a widespread misunderstanding that devolution only occurred in 1999. This is, of course, nonsense.
Political devolution occurred in 1999, however, administrative devolution in most areas (law, education, health, welfare, housing, agriculture, transport etc) existed in the period 1707-1999.
What the 1999 reform did was bring political accountability to a long-entrenched system.
Indeed but politics matters.
Asymmetric politics was a terrible, terrible idea.
Do you think we’ll learn the lessons of the ISC’s Russia report about why letting in the people and money from an aggressive and authoritarian state is not a good idea?
Me neither.
There has been an about-turn in our relations with China and Russia. Perhaps you didn't notice.
Well, let’s see what is actually done about stopping Chinese “investors” buying up property and what actual due diligence is done on the sources of their wealth.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
There does seem to be a correlation between recent hotspots and places where all 3 of the following factors apply: Multi generational high density housing, high levels of poverty, low levels of educational attainment. The difference in London may well be related to higher education levels in the poorer, high density areas.
Labelling it is an Islamic problem is simplistic, but ignoring that multi generational high density housing is more common in Muslim families unhelpful as well.
Didn't we also find out this morning that a spike was occurring in Stamford Hill, home of Orthodox Jews?
Look it may well be that the spikes in the North coincide with Muslim areas of activity and living but I am deeply uneasy that all of a sudden this should be seen as a "Muslim" (ie minority) problem and that we are all advising the MCB how best to control themselves.
Because once you start to blame a minority for the general ills of the country you are in a very bad place.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Nothing to do with fault at all. Simply that Eid celebrations may put them at higher risk and it is therefore sensible to take steps to minimise the risk.
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
Yes, I remember back the day the scheduled programme being uninterrupted with a press conference about a UK-US arms deal.
At least make an effort to conceal your bias.....Last night’s announcement by Matt Hancock was made via a pooled TV interview & NOT as a tweet as Stoma claims. The full details of the semi-lockdown were released by the Department for Health last night. BodyBags Burnham has said this morning that Matt Hancock spoke to him and Sir Richard Lees (Manchester’s Labour leader) at tea time yesterday.
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
Yes, I remember back the day the scheduled programme being uninterrupted with a press conference about a UK-US arms deal.
Still seems slower than the approach they actually used.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Nothing to do with fault at all. Simply that Eid celebrations may put them at higher risk and it is therefore sensible to take steps to minimise the risk.
So it would be OK to announce at 9pm on Xmas Eve that you could no longer have Xmas dinner together and you best get your turkey meal for 1 quick
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Nothing to do with fault at all. Simply that Eid celebrations may put them at higher risk and it is therefore sensible to take steps to minimise the risk.
@Cyclefree your belief in the inherent goodwill and pure intentions of some elements of our society is touching.
Sir Keir is right: the government has had a poor Covid. The government needs to get the conversation back onto Brexit. Keep it simple. Get everyone enthused. Send a little plastic pledge card to everyone in the country on which are listed, possibly over an image of Boris's face, the 10 greatest benefits of WTO membership. It will inspire hope and get everyone dreaming about the future once more.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Nothing to do with fault at all. Simply that Eid celebrations may put them at higher risk and it is therefore sensible to take steps to minimise the risk.
So it would be OK to announce at 9pm on Xmas Eve that you could no longer have Xmas dinner together and you best get your turkey meal for 1 quick
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
There does seem to be a correlation between recent hotspots and places where all 3 of the following factors apply: Multi generational high density housing, high levels of poverty, low levels of educational attainment. The difference in London may well be related to higher education levels in the poorer, high density areas.
Labelling it is an Islamic problem is simplistic, but ignoring that multi generational high density housing is more common in Muslim families unhelpful as well.
Didn't we also find out this morning that a spike was occurring in Stamford Hill, home of Orthodox Jews?
Look it may well be that the spikes in the North coincide with Muslim areas of activity and living but I am deeply uneasy that all of a sudden this should be seen as a "Muslim" (ie minority) problem and that we are all advising the MCB how best to control themselves.
Because once you start to blame a minority for the general ills of the country you are in a very bad place.
I am uncomfortable with it as well but dont think that should stop it being discussed. And yes on that map Stamford Hill had one of the highest rates in London.
Note I did not blame anything on people or religion, I said it seems the factors are multi generational high density housing, poverty and low education levels. Clearly no-one is choosing poverty or low education levels.
Sir Keir is right: the government has had a poor Covid. The government needs to get the conversation back onto Brexit. Keep it simple. Get everyone enthused. Send a little plastic pledge card to everyone in the country on which are listed, possibly over an image of Boris's face, the 10 greatest benefits of WTO membership. It will inspire hope and get everyone dreaming about the future once more.
When I drive into central Newcastle, there’s huge electronic billboards displaying the new messaging - “The UK’s new start”, “check, change, go”.
One thing I’ve noticed that the current devolution settlement really amplifies the concept of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland being almost like colonies or dominions. I know they aren’t - but if you think about it, the setup is not too different.
The Prime Minister is effectively the Prime Minister of England, and for the most part governs and legislates only for England. This is especially obvious at the moment where Health is a huge focus. It therefore focuses minds when the Scottish Government wants to do something that is outside of their “competencies” or in a grey area (amplified by Brexit), it looks like them having to beg mother England for permission. I’m sure this is not lost on people in Scotland.
I’m sure I’ve not explained myself very well - but the constitutional settlement needs looking at desperately if the union is to last. The status quo just doesn’t really make much sense. (I know, Tony Blair New Labour bla bla).
Living here, I don't really think that's the nub of the issue. It is not constant reminders of the authority of the UK Government we get up here, it is their almost total absence from the conversation. Where they are mentioned, the Scottish Government gets to decide the terms of reference. Where the UK Government provides funding, the Scottish Government is the one seen spending it. Everything that seems prima facie as an argument for the Union, is not, once it's been through the mangle and come out the other side.
Mercifully, the UK Government is learning fast, in a way it has not before. The defenestration of Carlaw is a positive step. There have been visits recently by Boris and Gove, and there seems to be more 'involvement' - all of which enhances knowledge.
The next step, I believe, should be the re-emergence of the Scotland Office as a means of providing direct support to Scotland that bypasses the Scottish Government. It should leave Edinburgh, and in my opinion would be a good fit for Aberdeen, for a number of reasons.
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
Yes, I remember back the day the scheduled programme being uninterrupted with a press conference about a UK-US arms deal.
Still seems slower than the approach they actually used.
I agree that nothing is quicker than a tweet, but it is still the wrong way to announce this.
As BJO pointed out, change "Eid" to "Christmas" and see how it reads. If you are going to cancel Christmas, do it in person and expect a backlash.
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
Yes, I remember back the day the scheduled programme being uninterrupted with a press conference about a UK-US arms deal.
Still seems slower than the approach they actually used.
I agree that nothing is quicker than a tweet, but it is still the wrong way to announce this.
As BJO pointed out, change "Eid" to "Christmas" and see how it reads. If you are going to cancel Christmas, do it in person and expect a backlash.
As it turns out it wasn't announced via tweet after all.
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
Not sure what eyes on the ball would achieve? This year and next is going to be really tough, we all know that, and official stats dont put much in context as this is such a one-off. Stuff like vaccine development and treatment has more impact on the health of the economy than consumption in the last quarter.
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
Sounds about right. Unless Auntie Pat's conservatory is a public place, fully subject to coronavirus restrictions, mask wearing, handwashing, social distancing, etc.
Sir Keir is right: the government has had a poor Covid. The government needs to get the conversation back onto Brexit. Keep it simple. Get everyone enthused. Send a little plastic pledge card to everyone in the country on which are listed, possibly over an image of Boris's face, the 10 greatest benefits of WTO membership. It will inspire hope and get everyone dreaming about the future once more.
When I drive into central Newcastle, there’s huge electronic billboards displaying the new messaging - “The UK’s new start”, “check, change, go”.
Is that Check the new regulations/requirements/red tape Change you mind about doing business in the UK Go elsewhere?
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
That's would be OK if there was a bounce back
There isn;t one. That;'s the real problem.
all of these countries are destroying their economies over a virus that is killing very very few now.
Look at twitter, look at the comments under news site articles. People are getting angry and its 30 degrees centigrade outside.
Just wait til its zero degrees and dark. and five million are unemployed. Permanently.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
There does seem to be a correlation between recent hotspots and places where all 3 of the following factors apply: Multi generational high density housing, high levels of poverty, low levels of educational attainment. The difference in London may well be related to higher education levels in the poorer, high density areas.
Labelling it is an Islamic problem is simplistic, but ignoring that multi generational high density housing is more common in Muslim families unhelpful as well.
Didn't we also find out this morning that a spike was occurring in Stamford Hill, home of Orthodox Jews?
Look it may well be that the spikes in the North coincide with Muslim areas of activity and living but I am deeply uneasy that all of a sudden this should be seen as a "Muslim" (ie minority) problem and that we are all advising the MCB how best to control themselves.
Because once you start to blame a minority for the general ills of the country you are in a very bad place.
I am uncomfortable with it as well but dont think that should stop it being discussed. And yes on that map Stamford Hill had one of the highest rates in London.
Note I did not blame anything on people or religion, I said it seems the factors are multi generational high density housing, poverty and low education levels. Clearly no-one is choosing poverty or low education levels.
We can certainly discuss it, indeed we should discuss it, but we need to avoid obvious "traps" like singling out any particular demographic. As you rightly say if there are socio-economic reasons then saying just that shouldn't prevent all those who fall within those categories affected from taking action.
... A presentation was also reportedly made last week to Downing Street which included very unfavorable internal polling.
... The broader context of Carlaw’s resignation is the disarray the pro-Union side finds itself in nine months before the Holyrood election.
The Scottish Tories, the supposed standard bearers of unionism, find themselves rudderless, while a growing number of figures are calling on “invisible” Richard Leonard to stand down as Labour leader.
Sturgeon’s poll ratings, by contrast, are soaring...
It was a bit unlucky for you that Alex- "Russia Today"-Salmond played the "once in a lifetime" referendum a bit too early wasn't it? When he used that phrase, do you think it was a Putin type propaganda lie, or does he have a completely different understanding of the word "generation", or perhaps even the word "once"?
After an election it is the winner's manifesto e.g. "Vote No to keep Scotland in the EU" that is tested, not the loser's.
Most Scottish Leave voters voted SNP in 2015
So?
Brexit has made little difference to independence polling, the highest percentage of Remain voters from any of the main Scottish parties was in the Scottish LDs, plenty of Scottish nationalists are also anti EU e.g. Jim Sillars
On the contrary, Brexit is another nail in the coffin of the United Kingdom. It is not just the European issue itself that is the problem, but also the symbolism of Westminster forcing a policy on Scotland, despite both referendum and Holyrood being opposed. A Union of equals would have negotiated a more acceptable compromise such as EEA, or a Northern Ireland style internal UK border.
The polling shows otherwise, including Don't Knows Yes is not over 50% in any Scottish independence poll.
If Brexit was key Yes would be on 60%+ even including Don't Knows but as a diehard Remainer you can only see through the prism of Brexit
Your “including don’t knows” qualification is really telling.
In 2014 Don't Knows mostly went No, in Quebec in 1995 Yes to independence from Canada led most final polls but No won with 51% as Don't Knows went No
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
That's would be OK if there was a bounce back
There isn;t one. That;'s the real problem.
all of these countries are destroying their economies over a virus that is killing very very few now.
Look at twitter, look at the comments under news site articles. People are getting angry and its 30 degrees centigrade outside.
Just wait til its zero degrees and dark. and five million are unemployed. Permanently.
Winter is coming.
From a construction perspective in the South of England the economy is booming
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
You can certainly ask them for the best way to announce this. You can mention that you have spoken to them.
They are not getting to set policy, merely helping deliver the announcement.
At least make an effort to conceal your bias.....Last night’s announcement by Matt Hancock was made via a pooled TV interview & NOT as a tweet as Stoma claims. The full details of the semi-lockdown were released by the Department for Health last night. BodyBags Burnham has said this morning that Matt Hancock spoke to him and Sir Richard Lees (Manchester’s Labour leader) at tea time yesterday.
No they weren't. The changes to Leicester (seem to be identical to the Greater Manchester) were not published until this morning
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
Showing your ignorance. There was another Eid during lockdown, back in May, where the mosques and churches were shut.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
You can certainly ask them for the best way to announce this. You can mention that you have spoken to them.
They are not getting to set policy, merely helping deliver the announcement.
"The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies"
Jeez Boris is fucking useless. They went from following to being guided by and presumably they are back to following because they want the scientists to take the heat for whatever is about to be said now.
Boris and Chris Whitty live press conference at 12
Its good he's got Chris Whitty...... .that guys a big votewinner LOL
He had better ratings that Boris Johnson, IIRC it was a net positive rating of 25% with YouGov.
One thing I will certainly concede. Remainers may have been wrong about brexit (in my humble opinion), but they were absolutely right about the character of Boris Johnson.
I have to hand that to you. You had the measure of the man, his motives and his glaring weaknesses, long before the rest of us.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
You can certainly ask them for the best way to announce this. You can mention that you have spoken to them.
They are not getting to set policy, merely helping deliver the announcement.
Exactly. Having a joint press conference between Hancock and a spokesperson for the MCB for example.
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
That's would be OK if there was a bounce back
There isn;t one. That;'s the real problem.
all of these countries are destroying their economies over a virus that is killing very very few now.
Look at twitter, look at the comments under news site articles. People are getting angry and its 30 degrees centigrade outside.
Just wait til its zero degrees and dark. and five million are unemployed. Permanently.
Winter is coming.
There is one, June is looking like +5% and July looks like +6% from the leading indicators, but we've had a 24% peak to trough drop in GDP, we'll only have recovered ~11% by the end of July and August looks like it could be quite mixed given local lockdowns and slower unlocking in certain parts of the country than hoped.
Our figures are that 6% of the pre-virus economy is unrecoverable until a vaccine and that drops to 3% once there is a vaccine. I feel like that's about right, but I would say that given I wrote a big chunk of the report.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
What language are you writing in? I couldn't make head nor tail of what you were saying.
Boris and Chris Whitty live press conference at 12
Who is Boris Whitty? Is he Chris Whitty's husband, or is this a new name for Boris Johnson, who, realising the name Johnson is American for penis, decided that he would also use the surname "Whitty" as this sounded as though he is someone amusing and clown-like ?
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
That's would be OK if there was a bounce back
There isn;t one. That;'s the real problem.
all of these countries are destroying their economies over a virus that is killing very very few now.
Look at twitter, look at the comments under news site articles. People are getting angry and its 30 degrees centigrade outside.
Just wait til its zero degrees and dark. and five million are unemployed. Permanently.
Winter is coming.
And we have already built a wall to keep the foreigners out (Brexit). How very Game of Thrones... All we need to do now is send the unemployed to man The Wall
Jeez Boris is fucking useless. They went from following to being guided by and presumably they are back to following because they want the scientists to take the heat for whatever is about to be said now.
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
That's would be OK if there was a bounce back
There isn;t one. That;'s the real problem.
all of these countries are destroying their economies over a virus that is killing very very few now.
Look at twitter, look at the comments under news site articles. People are getting angry and its 30 degrees centigrade outside.
Just wait til its zero degrees and dark. and five million are unemployed. Permanently.
Winter is coming.
There is one, June is looking like +5% and July looks like +6% from the leading indicators, but we've had a 24% peak to trough drop in GDP, we'll only have recovered ~11% by the end of July and August looks like it could be quite mixed given local lockdowns and slower unlocking in certain parts of the country than hoped.
Our figures are that 6% of the pre-virus economy is unrecoverable until a vaccine and that drops to 3% once there is a vaccine. I feel like that's about right, but I would say that given I wrote a big chunk of the report.
You are clearly an expert and I defer to your analysis. Those numbers look optimistic to me, but then I realise estimates like these must be ferociously difficult to calculate.
Economic predictions are difficult enough in normal times, but right now it must be next to impossible and a thankless task.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
You can certainly ask them for the best way to announce this. You can mention that you have spoken to them.
They are not getting to set policy, merely helping deliver the announcement.
"The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies"
When swimming pools reopened the government reached out to the people who run swimming pools and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
When restaurants reopened the government reached out to the people who run restaurants and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
When hotels reopened the government reached out to the people who run hotels and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
It is just common sense to talk and collaborate with people running things were lots of people attend the same place!
Boris and Chris Whitty live press conference at 12
Its good he's got Chris Whitty...... .that guys a big votewinner LOL
He had better ratings that Boris Johnson, IIRC it was a net positive rating of 25% with YouGov.
One thing I will certainly concede. Remainers may have been wrong about brexit (in my humble opinion), but they were absolutely right about the character of Boris Johnson.
I have to hand that to you. You had the measure of the man, his motives and his glaring weaknesses, long before the rest of us.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
Well as @noneoftheabove pointed out, they have done exactly that.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
What language are you writing in? I couldn't make head nor tail of what you were saying.
I apologise - I've just checked its Flesch Kincaid score and the text is apparently only comprehensible to those with a reading age of 17 or above. Let me summarise the basic premise:
1) That medical professionals, not religous leaders, should determine what policies are followed. 2) That it is vital to act quickly in order to check the spread of the virus, which rules out lengthy consultations. 3) That the lockdown should apply to all members of a community equally, and not be determined by which special interest group shouts loudest .
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
That's would be OK if there was a bounce back
There isn;t one. That;'s the real problem.
all of these countries are destroying their economies over a virus that is killing very very few now.
Look at twitter, look at the comments under news site articles. People are getting angry and its 30 degrees centigrade outside.
Just wait til its zero degrees and dark. and five million are unemployed. Permanently.
Winter is coming.
And we have already built a wall to keep the foreigners out (Brexit). How very Game of Thrones... All we need to do now is send the unemployed to man The Wall
Who gets the part of Jon Snow?
Its keeps foreigners out so well that there are 50,000 of them in 4-star hotels, apparently.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Quite a shift from 'the government should follow the advice of the medical professionals' and 'the government not locking down hard and fast has killed 50,000 people'. Should they also have reached out to the leaders of the 5G protests?
What a moronic thing to say.
That "Muslim leaders' should be given input into "a set of agreed policies"? What proportion of imams do you imagine are also qualified immunologists with the ability to decide what steps will most effectively check the spread of the virus? How long might this discussion have taken, with Eid approaching? Most importantly, why is it only the Muslim community which is allowed to determine how exactly the lockdown will apply to them, when Christian churches were shut down through Easter?
What language are you writing in? I couldn't make head nor tail of what you were saying.
I apologise - I've just checked its Flesch Kincaid score and the text is apparently only comprehensible to those with a reading age of 17 or above. Let me summarise the basic premise:
1) That medical professionals, not religous leaders, should determine what policies are followed. 2) That it is vital to act quickly in order to check the spread of the virus, which rules out lengthy consultations. 3) That the lockdown should apply to all members of a community equally, and not be determined by which special interest group shouts loudest .
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
Lucky we have no problems of our own to concern us.
While all of this is happening in the UK, there is a huge economic disaster unfolding across Europe and it feels like everyone is taking their eyes off the ball. Spain just had a -18.5% quarter, Italy -12.4%, Germany -10.1%, France -13.8%, and we're looking at ~ -12% when the figures are released on the 12th.
I get the feeling quite a lot of the news is displacement activity. Both government and the population in general are aware of it but trying to ignore it in the hope something will turn up. The persistent faith in a vaccine before Christmas is but one example of this.
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
What are you on about? The Muslim Council of GB for example are best placed to help put in place specific guidance in how to celebrate Eid safely in the current circumstances.
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
Lucky we have no problems of our own to concern us.
What, there's still an EU?! I was assured by several PBers that a coordinated Covid aid deal was impossible and presaged the end of the hated EUSSR.
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
Lucky we have no problems of our own to concern us.
The evidence covid is increasing both here and across Europe is very worrying for everyone
If, hypothetically, you were a government minister who has made a decision late in the evening which you wanted to disseminate to the public extremely fast, could you think of a better way of doing it than using Twitter, which every journalist in the country would soon pick up, either directly or through re-tweets, and report?
Oh for Heavens sake...
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
It was on screen and live immediately. Of course not everyone watches the TV nowadays.
What on earth is the problem? I know lots of people hate this government - I'm not exactly a fan myself - but laying into them for using modern means of rapid communication to get an urgent announcement out is one of the most bizarre criticisms I've ever heard.
Adam Parsons, Sky Europe correspondence, has just said a cluster of EU countries with big increases in cases of covid are worrying many in Europe, with cracks showing in EU unity, and the EU are worrying that a full national lockdown across some EU countries, even across the whole of the EU may come about
Lucky we have no problems of our own to concern us.
The evidence covid is increasing both here and across Europe is very worrying for everyone
This idea the the government should be negotiating things with self-appointed community leaders is absolutely for the birds.
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Community leaders shouldnt have any say in govt policy beyond the events they themselves organise. I see no reason why someone organising a church or mosque event shouldnt have to go through a similar process as someone organising a swimming pool event.
That is all that has happened, govt talked to people who are responsible for and understand an event before deciding on the rules.
The Government should have reached out to Muslim leaders in Greater Manchester etc and collaborated on a set of agreed policies and messaging in order to control COVID-19 spread during Eid, in my opinion.
EDIT: I see @Foxy got there first with this suggestion.
Not that we're wrong but I'm interested to see that the PB collective wisdom has determined with seemingly no doubt whatsoever that the new lockdown is entirely the fault of Muslims.
Indeed. Despite this being geographically contained within the North and not applied to London etc which is where most Muslims actually live. Very odd.
There does seem to be a correlation between recent hotspots and places where all 3 of the following factors apply: Multi generational high density housing, high levels of poverty, low levels of educational attainment. The difference in London may well be related to higher education levels in the poorer, high density areas.
Labelling it is an Islamic problem is simplistic, but ignoring that multi generational high density housing is more common in Muslim families unhelpful as well.
Didn't we also find out this morning that a spike was occurring in Stamford Hill, home of Orthodox Jews?
Look it may well be that the spikes in the North coincide with Muslim areas of activity and living but I am deeply uneasy that all of a sudden this should be seen as a "Muslim" (ie minority) problem and that we are all advising the MCB how best to control themselves.
Because once you start to blame a minority for the general ills of the country you are in a very bad place.
If anything the criticism has been that the government should have involved the MCB in providing advice to help minimise the risks. Targeted lockdowns wherever there is an increased risk seem sensible to me.
Comments
The Scottish Government has been slammed for “a betrayal” by opposition parties after announcing a three-year delay to the full devolution of a raft of welfare powers.
Social security secretary Shirley-Anne Somerville told MSPs that Scotland’s new benefits agency Social Security Scotland would not be able to fully administer the 11 benefits until 2024 – not 2021 as planned.
Somerville’s predecessor Jeane Freeman had previously pledged to implement the devolved powers, including over Personal Independence Payments (PIP) for disabled people, by the end of this parliamentary term.
But oh no, lets moan about the "Westminster power grab" when you won't even take responsibility for powers already devolved to you....
https://news.stv.tv/politics/1435913-ministers-delay-full-control-of-welfare-powers-until-2024?top
Funny how Scotland could be "fully independent" within 18 months, but can't manage welfare benefits within three years....
I know, what am I thinking? Starmer doesn't care about the health of northerners . . . there's no reason he needs to try and win around northern voters in the future because he has the red wall to rely on. Oh wait . . .
Of course.
Eid is clearly a risk factor but can you see the selective element of it.
But despite all the talk about Eid, I see no evidence there's any concern there at the minute as the data shows the virus is up here in the North West and not in the capital. So it makes sense for us in the North West to be more concerned regardless of race or religion.
Your inability to see anything other than black and white is again obvious. Of course.
The impression was of a man at his wits end with his boss. One's heart went out.
Scotland and Wales and England of course should be the same, but the deal whereby devolution started is for Scotland ultimately a real threat as instead of being content with devolution Scotland started acting as if it has unmet grievances in only having its own parliament and has been given an expensive platform to do it from. In the real world the population of Scotland is almost the same as Yorkshire, and should be considered in the same light. Sadly it may well be too late.
https://mcb.org.uk/press-releases/eid-al-adha-prayers-at-mosques-not-impacted-by-local-lockdown-in-parts-of-northern-england/
https://mcb.org.uk/press-releases/eid-al-adha-guidance-for-muslim-communities/
I’m not suggesting this is all driven by Eid, I just thought it might be something the Government might want to get ahead on.
England does not have its own Parliament, Westminster is a UK Parliament
He has done a fantastic job and should retire very proud of what he has helped build.
You’re stating the obvious, but it’s irrelevant.
It doesn’t matter that Scotland has MPs in Westminster. The principle is still there. The optics are not good.
If Brexit was key Yes would be on 60%+ even including Don't Knows but as a diehard Remainer you can only see through the prism of Brexit
If the govt PR team phoned up the Beeb and Sky and said "We are sending over a minister / spokesperson to make a major announcement" do you think the response would be "Sorry No.10 but we are all in bed having our cocoa"?
It would be on screen and live about 10 seconds after No.10 put the phone down. "We interrupt this programme...."
Labelling it is an Islamic problem is simplistic, but ignoring that multi generational high density housing is more common in Muslim families unhelpful as well.
https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1288970120568672258
Political devolution occurred in 1999, however, administrative devolution in most areas (law, education, health, welfare, housing, agriculture, transport etc) existed in the period 1707-1999.
What the 1999 reform did was bring political accountability to a long-entrenched system.
This is all part and parcel the much warned about West Lothian Question.
Tony Blair was a constitutional vandal and in hindsight was one of the worst Prime Ministers of all time. A reverse Midas, everything he has touched has ultimately turned to shit.
This could have all been avoided had there been an English Parliament at the same time as Scottish, Welsh and NI devolution. And if you're not prepared to have that, there shouldn't have been Scottish, Welsh and NI devolution.
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-30/coronavirus-lockdown-tightened-in-greater-manchester-and-parts-of-north-people-banned-meeting-indoors
"The Muslim Council of Britain clarified that Eid prayers for Eid al-Adha are not impacted by the new restriction"
which to me reads as pray and celebrate as normal. However the MCB have issued clear guidance over a week ago emphasising safety measures like being outdoors, limit numbers, no hugging or shaking hands etc.
Without seeing the MCB guidance, I'd have a pretty negative view of the one liner on ITV.
Asymmetric politics was a terrible, terrible idea.
Look it may well be that the spikes in the North coincide with Muslim areas of activity and living but I am deeply uneasy that all of a sudden this should be seen as a "Muslim" (ie minority) problem and that we are all advising the MCB how best to control themselves.
Because once you start to blame a minority for the general ills of the country you are in a very bad place.
Can you visit people who live outside Greater Manchester? Confusion as Matt Hancock appears to contradict own guidance
The Health Secretary seemed to suggest people could visit households outside the region - however the government's own guidance says they shouldn't
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/can-you-visit-people-who-18693237
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/30/sturgeon-rebuked-statistics-watchdog-dodgy-claims-uk-virus-rate/
Note I did not blame anything on people or religion, I said it seems the factors are multi generational high density housing, poverty and low education levels. Clearly no-one is choosing poverty or low education levels.
Mercifully, the UK Government is learning fast, in a way it has not before. The defenestration of Carlaw is a positive step. There have been visits recently by Boris and Gove, and there seems to be more 'involvement' - all of which enhances knowledge.
The next step, I believe, should be the re-emergence of the Scotland Office as a means of providing direct support to Scotland that bypasses the Scottish Government. It should leave Edinburgh, and in my opinion would be a good fit for Aberdeen, for a number of reasons.
As BJO pointed out, change "Eid" to "Christmas" and see how it reads. If you are going to cancel Christmas, do it in person and expect a backlash.
We don't want too much gravitas- no fun at all!
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/leicester-lockdown-what-you-can-and-cannot-do
Check the new regulations/requirements/red tape
Change you mind about doing business in the UK
Go elsewhere?
(sorry, couldn't resist
There isn;t one. That;'s the real problem.
all of these countries are destroying their economies over a virus that is killing very very few now.
Look at twitter, look at the comments under news site articles. People are getting angry and its 30 degrees centigrade outside.
Just wait til its zero degrees and dark. and five million are unemployed. Permanently.
Winter is coming.
I think you can also catch it in Auntie Pat's garden. The answer is to take her to the pub.
They are not getting to set policy, merely helping deliver the announcement.
Jeez Boris is fucking useless. They went from following to being guided by and presumably they are back to following because they want the scientists to take the heat for whatever is about to be said now.
Spineless fuckers.
I have to hand that to you. You had the measure of the man, his motives and his glaring weaknesses, long before the rest of us.
Our figures are that 6% of the pre-virus economy is unrecoverable until a vaccine and that drops to 3% once there is a vaccine. I feel like that's about right, but I would say that given I wrote a big chunk of the report.
Forgive me if Russian is your first language.
Who gets the part of Jon Snow?
Economic predictions are difficult enough in normal times, but right now it must be next to impossible and a thankless task.
When restaurants reopened the government reached out to the people who run restaurants and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
When hotels reopened the government reached out to the people who run hotels and collaborated on a set of agreed policies.
It is just common sense to talk and collaborate with people running things were lots of people attend the same place!
1) That medical professionals, not religous leaders, should determine what policies are followed.
2) That it is vital to act quickly in order to check the spread of the virus, which rules out lengthy consultations.
3) That the lockdown should apply to all members of a community equally, and not be determined by which special interest group shouts loudest .
As an Asian person if some trumped up "community leader" tried to tell me how to live my life I'd tell them to get fucked. Government advice is what matters, not what any idiot community leader thinks. It's frankly patronising to assume that "community leaders" actually speak for anyone other than themselves, the government is best to act as if they don't exist and speaking directly to the community, not via some idiot pushing whatever agenda they have.
Both government and the population in general are aware of it but trying to ignore it in the hope something will turn up.
The persistent faith in a vaccine before Christmas is but one example of this.
I was assured by several PBers that a coordinated Covid aid deal was impossible and presaged the end of the hated EUSSR.
What on earth is the problem? I know lots of people hate this government - I'm not exactly a fan myself - but laying into them for using modern means of rapid communication to get an urgent announcement out is one of the most bizarre criticisms I've ever heard.
That is all that has happened, govt talked to people who are responsible for and understand an event before deciding on the rules.