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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Compulsory face mask wearing – the Brexit divide

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Compulsory face mask wearing – the Brexit divide

Above is today’s polling from YouGov on the compulsory wearing of face masks when at work. As can be seen there’s a relatively tight split, within the margin of error, on whether those sampled back or oppose the idea.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    First
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    FPT but somewhat relevant to this thread:

    Walmart, the world’s largest retailer, is making face coverings mandatory for shoppers in all its stores from Monday.

    Politically quite significant in the US, I think.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/jul/15/coronavirus-live-news-update-covid-19-cases-latest-updates-india-lockdown (at 16:46)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    edited July 2020
    Seat changes with the new Kantar opinion poll compared to GE2019 with ElectoralCalculus.

    Con -7
    Lab +2
    LD -5
    SNP +10

    https://tinyurl.com/ybk6nkr5
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368

    FPT but somewhat relevant to this thread:

    Walmart, the world’s largest retailer, is making face coverings mandatory for shoppers in all its stores from Monday.

    Politically quite significant in the US, I think.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/jul/15/coronavirus-live-news-update-covid-19-cases-latest-updates-india-lockdown (at 16:46)

    Complete with a vast stand of masks at the entrance, one assumes.

    All those Uyghurs in the re-socialisation campuses in China need work to help them rejoin society, after all.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Andy_JS said:

    Seat changes with the new Kantar opinion poll compared to GE2019 with ElectoralCalculus.

    Con -7
    Lab +2
    LD -5
    SNP +10

    https://tinyurl.com/ybk6nkr5

    Scott must be devastated by that poll. He has worked so hard retweeting everyone who says anything negative about the Government and they have gone up in the poll
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    So the only gtoup of people that actually are over all in favour of compulsion are the authoritarian left and the remainers who still don't like the fact some peasants didn't vote as they were told to.

    I have said I expect a uturn will come on the compulsion and I think those percentages make it look more likely as it's people more likely to vote tory that appear to reject compulsion
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    The Lab Con split is more striking to me than Leave Remain.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I don't think it should need to be compulsory, I think people 100% should do the right thing and wear a mask without the government needing to compel it. Where does that put me?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Of course it was that well-known Remainer Maggie Thatcher whose nanny-state government made seatbelt wearing compulsory.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    I don't think it should need to be compulsory, I think people 100% should do the right thing and wear a mask without the government needing to compel it. Where does that put me?

    Amongst the optimists!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    As I'm not interested at all in celebrity tittle tattle I've not been following this Johnny Depp story at all. Is there much to it? Should I be changing my avatar?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595

    I don't think it should need to be compulsory, I think people 100% should do the right thing and wear a mask without the government needing to compel it. Where does that put me?

    Millions of people agree with that position.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Pagan2 said:

    So the only gtoup of people that actually are over all in favour of compulsion are the authoritarian left and the remainers who still don't like the fact some peasants didn't vote as they were told to.

    I have said I expect a uturn will come on the compulsion and I think those percentages make it look more likely as it's people more likely to vote tory that appear to reject compulsion

    Uh


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    kinabalu said:

    The Lab Con split is more striking to me than Leave Remain.

    With LDs in the middle, too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    LadyG said:
    Down with... the scientific method!
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Pagan2 said:

    So the only gtoup of people that actually are over all in favour of compulsion are the authoritarian left and the remainers who still don't like the fact some peasants didn't vote as they were told to.

    I have said I expect a uturn will come on the compulsion and I think those percentages make it look more likely as it's people more likely to vote tory that appear to reject compulsion

    Uh


    (Not sure why Mike decided to focus on polling on masks at work in particular)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Guardian:

    John Harris is a national treasure. George Mondibot can be entertaining if you don’t take him too seriously. I also enjoy Richard Williams, especially when he writes about other than sport. I forget her name but the girl that does “how to cook the perfect...” is great magazine style journalism.

    But then you have the downsides. Polly is tiresome, predictable and boring. And Owen Jones offensive and painful to my mental faculties.

    It’s a shame because the Graun is at times capable of world class investigative journalism but has such a chip on its shoulder that its content is mostly unreadable dirge. Too many on its payroll have insufficiently few grey hairs and world views so narrow their output reads like parody.

    The most irritating thing is the online comments section when you accidentally scroll below the article. Not that the Mail is better of course but at least they are self aware enough to give the audience some T&A (and curiously have an excellent science / technology editor).
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don;t engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    Take away the attribution, and I would have genuinely guessed that this was a KKK leaflet, or something vile from Stormfront.

    Woke is just Weird
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    Latest data

    R just above 1. Reported cases no longer decreasing. That's the negative.
    Incidence very low (except for some known hotspots). That's the positive.
    Managing this will need a lot of thought and care!



  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Grayling not to chair Intelligence Committee, Julian Lewis is
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    OK, my guess - hopefully educated - but a guess, on the current UK transmission of COVID by where it was contracted. This would, of course, have looked very different in March.

    Non-public workplaces (esp. industrial, food) - 33%
    Domestic transmission within household - 38%
    Domestic transmission inter household (including a small contribution from at home care work and private transport) - 6%
    Pubs, restaurants, hospitality Inc staff - 6%
    Public transport Inc staff / taxis - 5%
    Hospital, mefical and care settings Inc staff - 3% (if it were still greater, deaths would still be higher)
    Retail and public facing service Inc staff but exc education - 4%
    Education and childcare settings - 2%
    Open air settings - 1%
    Contracted abroad - 1%

    Thoughts please.


  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    If non white people were to follow that advice it would certainly guarantee a "white supremacy" for a very long time to come.

    As it is it will be judged entirely on what race the author was.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    LadyG said:
    Tend to disagree. Look at the whole thing


    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

    and it is a genuine contribution to a tricky discussion (my opinion as a white, centre right liberal male) including, naturally, lots to disagree with.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821


    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.

    Since when have all white people been hard-working protestants? Some are lazy sods, or even Catholics.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    To Kinablu its not the message that matters but who carries it and even a true thing is invalid if spoken by the wrong mouth
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    FPT and off topic (so apologies)

    It was asked why China has suddenly decided to come out all nasty to the world. I think the answer is that it has placed its bets on a Biden win in November and takes the view that, if he wins, Biden will be essentially Obama Mark 2, namely will want to avoid conflict and so will bend over backwards to do anything to calm China down. So China is probably thinking that the more it sabre rattles, the more Biden (or his successor) will look to give give aways.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    It didn't say what you say it says. Read it carefully. You are making unjustified inferences.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yeah, we really have gone insane in the far future of *checks notes* 1990.

    And I don't know why you're trying to read into it more than what it says. You're the one who's putting this "white = bad" narriative on it
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368


    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.

    Since when have all white people been hard-working protestants? Some are lazy sods, or even Catholics.
    What about atheists?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    As I'm not interested at all in celebrity tittle tattle I've not been following this Johnny Depp story at all. Is there much to it? Should I be changing my avatar?

    What? Wait. So your not a Johhny Depp look alike????
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    As I'm not interested at all in celebrity tittle tattle I've not been following this Johnny Depp story at all. Is there much to it? Should I be changing my avatar?

    All I've read is the headlines Mr T, and it seem to me that Depp, whether or not his version of events has any relation to reality, has done himself absolutely no favours.
    I don't know whether he has sought advice from anyone, but if he has, it's not from his friends.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368
    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:
    Tend to disagree. Look at the whole thing


    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

    and it is a genuine contribution to a tricky discussion (my opinion as a white, centre right liberal male) including, naturally, lots to disagree with.
    I have a feeling that anyone who thinks that hard work is a white thing hasn't met many... Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Peruvians, Nepalese Sherpas etc...

    Not very culturally aware, really.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    It didn't say what you say it says. Read it carefully. You are making unjustified inferences.
    Well, perhaps you could explain what, for example, the bullet points in 'Emphasis scientific method' in the graphic detailing 'White Culture' are supposed to mean if it's not what I thought they mean.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yes, you have failed to understand what it says - even with it embedded as it is in a page explaining exactly what is says - yet you still felt moved to post about it as some example of something or other.

    Your buttons are so easily pushed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555


    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:
    Tend to disagree. Look at the whole thing


    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

    and it is a genuine contribution to a tricky discussion (my opinion as a white, centre right liberal male) including, naturally, lots to disagree with.
    I have a feeling that anyone who thinks that hard work is a white thing hasn't met many... Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Peruvians, Nepalese Sherpas etc...

    Not very culturally aware, really.
    Good point, well made.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821


    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.

    Since when have all white people been hard-working protestants? Some are lazy sods, or even Catholics.
    What about atheists?
    Them too.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    It didn't say what you say it says. Read it carefully. You are making unjustified inferences.
    Well, perhaps you could explain what, for example, the bullet points in 'Emphasis scientific method' in the graphic detailing 'White Culture' are supposed to mean if it's not what I thought they mean.
    You need somebody to explain why having less of an emphasis on quantitative over qualitative analysis is different from being innumerate?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yeah, we really have gone insane in the far future of *checks notes* 1990.
    Yes it was written by one Judith Katz in 1990. It doesn't look any better in her original. It reads like White Supremacism.

    http://www.cascadia.edu/discover/about/diversity/documents/Some Aspects and Assumptions of White Culture in the United States.pdf

    She seems to be a fringe academic/author, who has been writing about this since the late 70s.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Awareness-Judy-H-Katz/dp/0806114665

    So obscure amazon gives the wrong info on her book


    The difference is that this fringe position has now moved mainstream, and is being pumped out by a respected and important US museum

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I swear to god someone could posts 218 random character on twitter and end it with "..to defend free speech" and people would be posting here as a Brave New Intervention in the Woke Cancel Culture Wars Which Are Destroying Western Civilisation.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't think it should need to be compulsory, I think people 100% should do the right thing and wear a mask without the government needing to compel it. Where does that put me?

    Millions of people agree with that position.
    Last time I read an article, Japan agreed with a voluntary position and about 75% of people wore one in close proximity to others. If so, the other 25% who did not presumably objected to masks. It's a free country (or not, in the UK case).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368
    algarkirk said:


    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:
    Tend to disagree. Look at the whole thing


    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

    and it is a genuine contribution to a tricky discussion (my opinion as a white, centre right liberal male) including, naturally, lots to disagree with.
    I have a feeling that anyone who thinks that hard work is a white thing hasn't met many... Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Peruvians, Nepalese Sherpas etc...

    Not very culturally aware, really.
    Good point, well made.
    Come to think of it, the section on Communication is practically the rule set for a several South East Asian countries.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    LadyG said:
    Which is why it is way too soon for inquiries.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yeah, we really have gone insane in the far future of *checks notes* 1990.

    And I don't know why you're trying to read into it more than what it says. You're the one who's putting this "white = bad" narriative on it
    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    It didn't say what you say it says. Read it carefully. You are making unjustified inferences.
    Well, perhaps you could explain what, for example, the bullet points in 'Emphasis scientific method' in the graphic detailing 'White Culture' are supposed to mean if it's not what I thought they mean.
    You need somebody to explain why having less of an emphasis on quantitative over qualitative analysis is different from being innumerate?
    No, I need someone to explain how a graphic claiming that examples of 'white culture' which include 'Objective, rational linear thinking; Cause and effect relationships; Quantitative emphasis' isn't incredibly racist. What is non-white culture - sorcery and voodoo?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yeah, we really have gone insane in the far future of *checks notes* 1990.

    And I don't know why you're trying to read into it more than what it says. You're the one who's putting this "white = bad" narriative on it
    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"
    What is interesting about that list, is that the exact opposite is the racist stereotype of various minorities.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yeah, we really have gone insane in the far future of *checks notes* 1990.

    And I don't know why you're trying to read into it more than what it says. You're the one who's putting this "white = bad" narriative on it
    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"
    What is interesting about that list, is that the exact opposite is the racist stereotype of various minorities.
    It's just mental.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    LadyG said:
    Surely that's not real.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yeah, we really have gone insane in the far future of *checks notes* 1990.

    And I don't know why you're trying to read into it more than what it says. You're the one who's putting this "white = bad" narriative on it
    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"
    Could one of the the right-wingers getting their knickers in a twist about this please point out the bits where it says either or both of "only white people have these characteristics" or "these characteristics are bad"? Because if it isn't saying either of those things (hint: it isn't), then I fail to see what the problem is.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368

    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    It didn't say what you say it says. Read it carefully. You are making unjustified inferences.
    Well, perhaps you could explain what, for example, the bullet points in 'Emphasis scientific method' in the graphic detailing 'White Culture' are supposed to mean if it's not what I thought they mean.
    You need somebody to explain why having less of an emphasis on quantitative over qualitative analysis is different from being innumerate?
    No, I need someone to explain how a graphic claiming that examples of 'white culture' which include 'Objective, rational linear thinking; Cause and effect relationships; Quantitative emphasis' isn't incredibly racist. What is non-white culture - sorcery and voodoo?
    I wonder what that means the Ghanian culture of advancement through education is?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    LadyG said:
    That second wave in Israel looks bad. 7-day Average 1448 in a polulation of under 10 million.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    rpjs said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    So you think the protestant work ethic is universal, not cultural? Clue's in the name.
    To be honest, I don't even understand what that graphic is trying to say to people. Are these things bad because they are "white"? Are they good despite being "typically white"? Do non-whites not do these things, or should they avoid them, or what?

    Woke has gone so far it has entered a parallel universe outwith my comprehension. I am not jesting. I don't get it.
    Yeah, we really have gone insane in the far future of *checks notes* 1990.

    And I don't know why you're trying to read into it more than what it says. You're the one who's putting this "white = bad" narriative on it
    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"
    Could one of the the right-wingers getting their knickers in a twist about this please point out the bits where it says either or both of "only white people have these characteristics" or "these characteristics are bad"? Because if it isn't saying either of those things (hint: it isn't), then I fail to see what the problem is.
    As a lover of good curry, I am particularly offended by this bit about "typical white food"

    Steak and potatoes: “bland is best”
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    edited July 2020
    Interesting that although it became compulsory to wear seatbelts in front seats in 1983, it wasn't until 1991 that this was extended to back seats.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2020
    rpjs said:


    Could one of the the right-wingers getting their knickers in a twist about this please point out the bits where it says either or both of "only white people have these characteristics" or "these characteristics are bad"? Because if it isn't saying either of those things (hint: it isn't), then I fail to see what the problem is.

    You are right, it doesn't say that only white people have these characteristics. It's even worse than that - it says that some people of colour have internalized these characteristics (grey box on the graphic). What a disgrace: people of colour internalizing rational thinking!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    So, the Number 10 Grayling stitch-up fails spectacularly. If they cannot even get that right, you do have to wonder about their ability to deal with slightly bigger issues like trade deals, saving the economy, keeping the UK together and managing the covid-19 pandemic.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting that although it became compulsory to wear seatbelts in front seats in 1983, it wasn't until 1991 that this was extended to back seats.

    How young are you?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I'm not freaking out, I am genuinely bewildered as to why a museum dedicated to racial justice should be putting out this insane literature, which manages to offend just about everyone of every race

    Anyhoo. After chucking that cat at you pigeons, I must go do some hard protestant work. Peace to all
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited July 2020

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    In the last millennium, what other voluntary settlers were there? I don't think there were, before about 1900, many black people who went voluntarily to the US. And the 'protestant work ethic' isn't, so far as I can see, particularly protestant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    I see Softbank are putting ARM up for sale again...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I would associate that value list far more with Korean society than the US.

  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited July 2020
    What I find most interesting about the poll question is how it isn't that highly polarised.


    The compulsory wearing highlights presents ideologically difficulties for those who, like ex-UKIP MP Douglas Carswell, want less state interference without acknowledging that means more are likely to die.

    This also goes the other way. I'm sure many shop owners are worried that requiring masks will hurt any recovery in sales and the longer this drags on and job losses bite there may a revolt against those pushing for ever more restrictions.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Alistair said:

    I swear to god someone could posts 218 random character on twitter and end it with "..to defend free speech" and people would be posting here as a Brave New Intervention in the Woke Cancel Culture Wars Which Are Destroying Western Civilisation.

    It is reactionary right wing propaganda of the most tedious and obvious variety. I'm by equal measure surprised and disappointed to see how many posters swallow it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I would associate that value list far more with Korean society than the US.

    Well there are quite a few Protestants in Korea....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    As an alternative to accepting masks....

    https://twitter.com/mmfa/status/1283130468871876608
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited July 2020

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    In the last millennium, what other voluntary settlers were there? I don't think there were, before about 1900, many black people who went voluntarily to the US. And the 'protestant work ethic' isn't, so far as I can see, particularly protestant.
    The Chinese in California, at least for the construction of the transcontinental railroad in the 1860s. But no idea of relative numbers. Very hard working, of course, or they wouldn't be there (and very much appreciated by the management).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2020
    Carnyx said:



    The Chinese in California, at least for the construction of the transcontinental railroad in the 1860s. But no idea of relative numbers. Very hard working, of course, or they wouldn't be there (and very much appreciated by the management).

    And quite a lot of Japanese emigrated to the West coast states, I believe - but maybe they came later.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Nigelb said:

    As an alternative to accepting masks....

    twitter.com/mmfa/status/1283130468871876608

    Well that is positive thinking for you!
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I would associate that value list far more with Korean society than the US.

    Okay? The article is about how traits associated with white culture have become treated as the default or norm in the US as a result of long-standing white dominance of US institutions. If you're saying that a lot of very similar traits are also treated as the default in Korea because they're also present in Korean culture then I don't really see how that's relevant.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    I care. And so should you.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:

    Peak Woke?

    Truly bizarre

    twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1283372233730203651?s=20

    Raving bonkers. It's also incredibly racist, arguing that people of colour don't engage in rational thinking, are innumerate, don't work hard, don't plan for the future, can't delay their gratification, can't stick to schedules, can't make decisions. It's a white-supremacist worldview, which seems very odd!
    It didn't say what you say it says. Read it carefully. You are making unjustified inferences.
    Well, perhaps you could explain what, for example, the bullet points in 'Emphasis scientific method' in the graphic detailing 'White Culture' are supposed to mean if it's not what I thought they mean.
    You need somebody to explain why having less of an emphasis on quantitative over qualitative analysis is different from being innumerate?
    No, I need someone to explain how a graphic claiming that examples of 'white culture' which include 'Objective, rational linear thinking; Cause and effect relationships; Quantitative emphasis' isn't incredibly racist. What is non-white culture - sorcery and voodoo?
    Why don't you - and others - look into it instead of reacting like Pavlov's dogs?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I'm not freaking out, I am genuinely bewildered as to why a museum dedicated to racial justice should be putting out this insane literature, which manages to offend just about everyone of every race

    Anyhoo. After chucking that cat at you pigeons, I must go do some hard protestant work. Peace to all
    Genuinely bewildered. Are you really? I sense not.

    Would you like to know what EYE sense you are?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821



    Okay? The article is about how traits associated with white culture have become treated as the default or norm in the US as a result of long-standing white dominance of US institutions.

    So, to be clear, Objective rational linear thinking and emphasis on cause and effect is evidence of 'white* dominance of US institutions'? Really? In the annals of utterly bonkers nonsense, that is a quite spectacular example.

    * by which they don't actually seem to mean white, they've equated skin colour with the culture of a subset of northern European settlers, but we'll let that racist logical error pass
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I would associate that value list far more with Korean society than the US.

    Okay? The article is about how traits associated with white culture have become treated as the default or norm in the US as a result of long-standing white dominance of US institutions. If you're saying that a lot of very similar traits are also treated as the default in Korea because they're also present in Korean culture then I don't really see how that's relevant.
    I will have to leave you to it. Good luck.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2020

    rpjs said:


    Could one of the the right-wingers getting their knickers in a twist about this please point out the bits where it says either or both of "only white people have these characteristics" or "these characteristics are bad"? Because if it isn't saying either of those things (hint: it isn't), then I fail to see what the problem is.

    You are right, it doesn't say that only white people have these characteristics. It's even worse than that - it says that some people of colour have internalized these characteristics (grey box on the graphic). What a disgrace: people of colour internalizing rational thinking!
    As Symbols of Whiteness!

    The point missing going on here is absolutely spectacular. Truly jaw droppingly stunning.

    I don't even necessarily agree with the thesis but at least I have the decency to understand it before slating it for things it isn't saying.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,528
    algarkirk said:


    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:
    Tend to disagree. Look at the whole thing


    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

    and it is a genuine contribution to a tricky discussion (my opinion as a white, centre right liberal male) including, naturally, lots to disagree with.
    I have a feeling that anyone who thinks that hard work is a white thing hasn't met many... Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Peruvians, Nepalese Sherpas etc...

    Not very culturally aware, really.
    Good point, well made.
    I am sure when I was much younger, in less racially sensitive times, I would hear the expression
    "work(s) like a ..."
    I won't complete the sentence, for obvious reasons, but the word wasn't "Protestant" or "Korean".
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    .



    Okay? The article is about how traits associated with white culture have become treated as the default or norm in the US as a result of long-standing white dominance of US institutions.

    So, to be clear, Objective rational linear thinking and emphasis on cause and effect is evidence of 'white* dominance of US institutions'? Really? In the annals of utterly bonkers nonsense, that is a quite spectacular example.

    * by which they don't actually seem to mean white, they've equated skin colour with the culture of a subset of northern European settlers, but we'll let that racist logical error pass
    OMFG.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,368
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I would associate that value list far more with Korean society than the US.

    Okay? The article is about how traits associated with white culture have become treated as the default or norm in the US as a result of long-standing white dominance of US institutions. If you're saying that a lot of very similar traits are also treated as the default in Korea because they're also present in Korean culture then I don't really see how that's relevant.
    I will have to leave you to it. Good luck.

    LadyG said:


    It says, in the original, that "common characteristics of US white people, most of the time" are -

    Self reliance
    Planning for the future
    Nuclear families
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Hard work
    Working before playing
    Respect for authority
    Giving kids their own rooms, so they can be independent
    Punctuality
    Objective and rational thinking
    Protection of property
    Belief in cause and effect


    That's what is says "characterises most American white people"

    I'd like to know Katz' sources for this, or if she just made it up. I'm certainly not giving a blanket agreement to all of it, or necessarily any of it. My issue is with you- and the original tweeter- freaking out over things which don't really seem particularly outlandish.

    Is it really that shocking. for example, to claim that the protestant work ethic a) is culturally dominant in the US and b) primarily originated with white settlers? Is it fair to characterise that claim as saying that only white people work hard?

    I would associate that value list far more with Korean society than the US.

    Okay? The article is about how traits associated with white culture have become treated as the default or norm in the US as a result of long-standing white dominance of US institutions. If you're saying that a lot of very similar traits are also treated as the default in Korea because they're also present in Korean culture then I don't really see how that's relevant.
    Do you really associate modern US culture with -

    Planning for the future
    The avoidance of conflict
    Politeness
    Respect for authority
    Objective and rational thinking
    Belief in cause and effect

    Because I don't....
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Alistair said:

    rpjs said:


    Could one of the the right-wingers getting their knickers in a twist about this please point out the bits where it says either or both of "only white people have these characteristics" or "these characteristics are bad"? Because if it isn't saying either of those things (hint: it isn't), then I fail to see what the problem is.

    You are right, it doesn't say that only white people have these characteristics. It's even worse than that - it says that some people of colour have internalized these characteristics (grey box on the graphic). What a disgrace: people of colour internalizing rational thinking!
    As Symbols of Whiteness!

    The point missing going on here is absolutely spectacular. Truly jaw droppingly stunning.

    I don't even necessarily agree with the thesis but at least I have the decent to understand it before slating it for things it isn't saying.
    Well, I think I understand the English language pretty damned well, but I really can't see how the text in that grey box can be interpreted as anything other than how I interpreted it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    As I'm not interested at all in celebrity tittle tattle I've not been following this Johnny Depp story at all. Is there much to it? Should I be changing my avatar?

    Been pretty bad, what a pair of divvies , she crapped in the bed supposedly as a joke , he hung her yorkshire terrier out the car window at speed etc, just a litany of drink, drugs and debauchery
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:
    Tend to disagree. Look at the whole thing


    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

    and it is a genuine contribution to a tricky discussion (my opinion as a white, centre right liberal male) including, naturally, lots to disagree with.
    Defecating on a carpet is a genuine contribution. If you think it has merit, please say so and explain why.
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 757
    "In praise of idleness," by Bertrand Russell - was it cultural appropriation?

    http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    "In praise of cultural appropriation
    The mixing and meshing of different cultures is something to celebrate.
    Frank Furedi"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2016/02/15/in-praise-of-cultural-appropriation/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    Who cares who tweeted it

    It's genuine. See here

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
    To Kinablu its not the message that matters but who carries it and even a true thing is invalid if spoken by the wrong mouth
    It's the C word. Context. Context is key. Without context there is no truth. And an integral part of context - especially with Twitter - is who is tweeting.

    If it's an extremist, one is well advised to treat with caution and seek the reasons why the bald content is misleading and the message is false.

    And if ye so seek, ye shall usually find.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Andy_JS said:

    "In praise of cultural appropriation
    The mixing and meshing of different cultures is something to celebrate.
    Frank Furedi"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2016/02/15/in-praise-of-cultural-appropriation/

    Cultural appropriation is the one area on racism where the angry right are correct. It is indeed a nonsense.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    algarkirk said:

    LadyG said:
    Tend to disagree. Look at the whole thing


    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

    and it is a genuine contribution to a tricky discussion (my opinion as a white, centre right liberal male) including, naturally, lots to disagree with.
    Thank you and hats off.

    If only more would take a leaf instead of doing the Pavlov's dogs routine.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited July 2020
    Nigelb said:

    As an alternative to accepting masks....

    https://twitter.com/mmfa/status/1283130468871876608

    Good-oh, another achievement to be added to the glories of the Protestant work ethic and white culture!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Andy_JS said:

    "In praise of cultural appropriation
    The mixing and meshing of different cultures is something to celebrate.
    Frank Furedi"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2016/02/15/in-praise-of-cultural-appropriation/

    Cultural appropriation is the one area on racism where the angry right are correct. It is indeed a nonsense.
    Is Revolutionary Commie Furedi the angry right or the angry left?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    MrEd said:

    FPT and off topic (so apologies)

    It was asked why China has suddenly decided to come out all nasty to the world. I think the answer is that it has placed its bets on a Biden win in November and takes the view that, if he wins, Biden will be essentially Obama Mark 2, namely will want to avoid conflict and so will bend over backwards to do anything to calm China down. So China is probably thinking that the more it sabre rattles, the more Biden (or his successor) will look to give give aways.

    That sounds more like Trumpery than how the world actually works.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    OFF TOPIC - This from Texas Monthly 2020 Runoff Roundup

    Former Travis County GOP chair and B-list Austin crank Robert Morrow has suffered a stinging defeat in his bid to serve on the State Board of Education. GOP voters were apparently not in the mood for Morrow’s ideas for Texas schoolchildren, including pole-dancing classes for high-schoolers and teaching that Lyndon Johnson assassinated John Kennedy.

    Morrow is losing 78-22 to Lani Popp, who has a lovely name and seems wisely to have stayed off Twitter, her challenger’s preferred medium for anime porn. Current Travis County GOP chair Matt Mackowiak must be relieved that he will not have to follow through on his promise to “light [himself] on fire” if Morrow wins.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Andy_JS said:

    "In praise of cultural appropriation
    The mixing and meshing of different cultures is something to celebrate.
    Frank Furedi"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2016/02/15/in-praise-of-cultural-appropriation/

    Cultural appropriation is the one area on racism where the angry right are correct. It is indeed a nonsense.
    Is Revolutionary Commie Furedi the angry right or the angry left?
    No idea who he is, but by your description guessing the left.....it doesnt stop the angry right being correct for once.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Andy_JS said:

    Seat changes with the new Kantar opinion poll compared to GE2019 with ElectoralCalculus.

    Con -7
    Lab +2
    LD -5
    SNP +10

    https://tinyurl.com/ybk6nkr5

    SCon and SLD bloodbath there.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,134
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:
    I see the tweeter is the proud author of the following work -

    THE VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY:
    The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President - and Why They'll Try Even Harder Next Time.
    What does who tweets something have to do with whether the thing tweeted is accurate or not? If it isn't, they are disreputable. If it is, then it doesn't matter whether they have views or interpretations others would not share, since we are not obliged to share the view or interpretation they hold. If their interpretation is suspect or incorrect, that's an entirely separate matter.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,213
    LadyG said:
    That is a pretty compelling argument for mask wearing in shops.

    Basically, the argument is a simple one: by accepting slightly more onerous restrictions now, you avoid a hard lock down (either de facto or de jure).
This discussion has been closed.