Extraordinary interview with Lord (Jim) O'Neill of Gatley on WatO today, in which the sinophile ex GS staffer got a bit emotional about dropping Hwawei. I wonder why.
One of the greatest put downs I have ever seen was by then Goldman Sachs International Chairman Peter Sutherland to Jim O'Neill.
Jim had just given a speech at Goldman conference in which he said - and I'm slightly paraphrasing - "I have been all over China, and I have heard a consistent message. The Chinese people do not want democracy, at least not yet."
Peter Sutherland stood up and said "Well, I'm glad that Jim has been able to divine the will of the Chinese people from his meetings with senior members of the Communist Party."
The will of the Party is the will of the people...
Its a shame really: a torn up Conservative membsership card was formerly a mark of sanity now it seems people are leaving becasue Boris is exactly as they expected him to be.
Maybe if enough of them leave this time around the party will become inhabitable again.
The last time it was 'habitable' under your terms the tories were ten points behind the brexit party
Seems fair to me: the principle is that I'm not a bigot and I don't want to be associated with a party that has stolen the clothes of bigots for electoral gain.
You on the other hand either are a bigot or don't mind being associated with them. It's your call.
You may or may not be a bigot but you are certainly closed minded and ignorant.
Oh go on, thats the definition of a bigot anyway: if you want to say it, just say it. You really shouldn't feel inhibited as I literally don't care what you think.
Its a shame really: a torn up Conservative membsership card was formerly a mark of sanity now it seems people are leaving becasue Boris is exactly as they expected him to be.
Maybe if enough of them leave this time around the party will become inhabitable again.
The last time it was 'habitable' under your terms the tories were ten points behind the brexit party
Seems fair to me: the principle is that I'm not a bigot and I don't want to be associated with a party that has stolen the clothes of bigots for electoral gain.
You on the other hand either are a bigot or don't mind being associated with them. It's your call.
strange then that 'tories' like you did not tell the millions of brexit party voters they were 'bigots' when you needed their votes.
Then again garnering votes under false pretences comes naturally to 'tories' such as yourself. Boles, Rudd, Grieve and co prove though, that you soon get exposed.
I believe Galloway's vehicle for saving the Union doesn't include tiresome details like him running for Holyrood. I think we all know the reason for that.
Sorry, real life has been distracting me (research and painting the new shed). What's with the reluctance to run for Holyrood please?
Also why the Type C1 roundel with yellow replaced by black? reminds me of those WW2 photos with the wrong mixes of filters and ortho vs pan filsm which gave weird effects where yellow was involved.
Sunak, born into privilege and married a billionaire.
Starmer, born into a working class family and worked his way up to be director of public prosecutions.
I know which one understands ordinary people more.
Those both sound like the profiles of people utterly alienated from the reality of ordinary life.
Maybe instead of trying to elect politicians who can vibe with the common folk, we should be trying to elect politicians who have even the slightest desire to advance their interests?
The Huawei news is not unexpected and there may be good political and security reasons for it. However, what it also means is that the UK is going to fall further behind in the roll-out of 5G, while it is now a lot more likely that UK businesses will be followers rather than leaders in areas such as the IoT and 4IR. All this stems from a total failure in Europe and the US to plan properly for the new era of connectivity. Huawei did not have to be a global leader in this field. It was allowed to be. That is our fault, not China's or Huawei's.
Yes, it is our fault, but the issue goes back 20 years when the world decided in 2001 that China was deserving of full WTO membership and the all of the privileges and responsibilities that comes with. We allowed the fox into the henhouse.
Though in 2001 it looked like China was serious about reforming. Even after Jiang retired and was replaced by Hu the future still seemed optimistic.
It is since Xi took over that China has taken a dark turn and people have not faced up to that quick enough.
The Great Firewall of China dates from the 1990s. They were serious about preventing reform.
Its a shame really: a torn up Conservative membsership card was formerly a mark of sanity now it seems people are leaving becasue Boris is exactly as they expected him to be.
Maybe if enough of them leave this time around the party will become inhabitable again.
The last time it was 'habitable' under your terms the tories were ten points behind the brexit party
Seems fair to me: the principle is that I'm not a bigot and I don't want to be associated with a party that has stolen the clothes of bigots for electoral gain.
You on the other hand either are a bigot or don't mind being associated with them. It's your call.
strange then that 'tories' like you did not tell the millions of brexit party voters they were 'bigots' when you needed their votes.
Then again garnering votes under false pretences comes naturally to 'tories' such as yourself. Boles, Rudd, Grieve and co prove though, that you soon get exposed.
Ha! Parties lead and the dog whistle tactics of the Brexit party garnered votes and gave legitimacy to their views. You can try and lump the voters in with the party but I give them more credit than that.
As a lower middle class, non-university educated, finance worker from South London I joined a Conservative party that stood up for aspiration and hard work with none of the woke rubbish of the Labour party. I well remember Michael Howard pointing out his origins in comparison to Blair's.
A Conservative party that appeals to the worst angels of human nature and needlesly damages the economy in a bout of idealogical insanity that would have reduced the opportunities I took advantagee of and leaves me fearing that people like me wouldn't have them in future wasn't something I wanted to be associated with.
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
What if politicians and civil servants were paid a sort of retirement bonus, based on the performance of the British economy? A big bonus.
It appears to me, that whilst Britain is not corrupt in the traditional sense, there is a sort of 'nexus' of doing things a very conventional way, a KPMG, Deloitte, G4S sort of way. Politicians will make 'the right' decisions, and perhaps at some future point, they will be paid £20,000 to make an after dinner speech. Or (in the past) further the cause of European integration, and later be rewarded with an EU sinecure.
Being a politician is not an easy job. And politicians get paid comparatively parsimoniously compared to leaders in other industries and sectors. It is hardly surprising that they desire a comfortable retirement, as we all do.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
Look we're not talking about Kent being turned into the Farage garage as the rhetoric of Brexit meets the reality of no deal.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
Extraordinary interview with Lord (Jim) O'Neill of Gatley on WatO today, in which the sinophile ex GS staffer got a bit emotional about dropping Hwawei. I wonder why.
One of the greatest put downs I have ever seen was by then Goldman Sachs International Chairman Peter Sutherland to Jim O'Neill.
Jim had just given a speech at Goldman conference in which he said - and I'm slightly paraphrasing - "I have been all over China, and I have heard a consistent message. The Chinese people do not want democracy, at least not yet."
Peter Sutherland stood up and said "Well, I'm glad that Jim has been able to divine the will of the Chinese people from his meetings with senior members of the Communist Party."
The will of the Party is the will of the people...
Peter Sutherland was a genuinely great man. He was a great Chairman at both BP and Ericsson, and took no shit at Goldman. Normally the role of Chairman of GS in Europe is a ceremonial role, given to someone moderately well known to bring gravitas, and is expected not to rock the boat. But he was very vocal in stamping down on people performing poorly (from an ethical, not a financial perspective).
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
It isn't rocket science, wearing a mask protects others. Plus there's a difference between having to put on a mask for 15 minutes while you go shopping and for 8 hours while you work. Finally not everyone can wear a mask so some are exempt ... But those who can doing so helps protect them.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
What if politicians and civil servants were paid a sort of retirement bonus, based on the performance of the British economy? A big bonus.
It appears to me, that whilst Britain is not corrupt in the traditional sense, there is a sort of 'nexus' of doing things a very conventional way, a KPMG, Deloitte, G4S sort of way. Politicians will make 'the right' decisions, and perhaps at some future point, they will be paid £20,000 to make an after dinner speech. Or (in the past) further the cause of European integration, and later be rewarded with an EU sinecure.
Being a politician is not an easy job. And politicians get paid comparatively parsimoniously compared to leaders in other industries and sectors. It is hardly surprising that they desire a comfortable retirement, as we all do.
So, why not incentivise them the right way?
Good idea. The worse the economy performs, the more we should pay them to retire early and make way for someone better.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
YOU really don;t get this 'shop' concept, do you?
You think you can abuse staff and they should just sit back and take it and not call the police if you get aggressive?
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
The mask policy is just nuts. Social distancing and all the other precautions that are in place have worked.
So, I don't think there is anywhere in the world now where the apparent R is close to being above 1.5, or a doubling every 8 days (4 doublings a month). As opposed to Europe where the early R values were near 3, so doubling in under 3 days, over 10 doublings a month.
If we suggest second wave Europe, with some measures in place, stays below 1.5 at all times and often lower, there will be more time this time for progressive lockdowns. If we assume that test and trace across Europe is now closer to German standard, we can hold down below that for a lot of the time.
Now winter is long, and the battle against the second wave is likely to be a more attritional one than that we encountered in March, but I'm hopeful that any government with even a passing acquaintance with the truth, and ours has, have the tools to avoid the historical truism that the second wave is 2-3 times worse than the first wave.
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
The mask policy is just nuts. Social distancing and all the other precautions that are in place have worked.
Masks (of the non virus filtering medical grade type) protect, mainly, *other* people.
So if you wear a mask in a shop, you are increasing the protection (mostly) for everyone else.
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
It isn't rocket science, wearing a mask protects others. Plus there's a difference between having to put on a mask for 15 minutes while you go shopping and for 8 hours while you work. Finally not everyone can wear a mask so some are exempt ... But those who can doing so helps protect them.
Yes but millions of people in Britain are driving a cars which belch pollution into the air. These might affect my health. Selfish b@stards.
Facemask refusers sound an awful lot like the incel mob.
Haha! That hadn't occured to me. They struck me more as akin to anti-vaxxers in the US. Ultimately its the same approach with the same costs: "I'd rather put your life in danger than wear this mask/give this vaccine to my child".
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
It isn't rocket science, wearing a mask protects others. Plus there's a difference between having to put on a mask for 15 minutes while you go shopping and for 8 hours while you work. Finally not everyone can wear a mask so some are exempt ... But those who can doing so helps protect them.
Yes but millions of people in Britain are driving a cars which belch pollution into the air. These might affect my health. Selfish b@stards. So stop driving cars.
To be fair to the cretin, Sweden (without formal lockdown) does have a deaths curve that is arguably flatter than ours, in that ours decreases quite rapidly after lockdown began and theirs continues on a more gentle decline. Worse, but flatter.
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
It isn't rocket science, wearing a mask protects others. Plus there's a difference between having to put on a mask for 15 minutes while you go shopping and for 8 hours while you work. Finally not everyone can wear a mask so some are exempt ... But those who can doing so helps protect them.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
YOU really don;t get this 'shop' concept, do you?
Shops have the right to refuse service, don't they?
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
YOU really don;t get this 'shop' concept, do you?
Shops have the right to refuse service, don't they?
Some people seem to think they can treat shop staff worse than they'd treat dogs and get away with it. Shop staff are not there to be abused.
One of my favourite exchanges that stuck with me I witnessed once was about twenty years ago: a man screaming at a shop assistant in a famous computer game store within a shopping centre - I don't know what had started it but the man was losing his mind at the poor guy working there who was taking the abuse. Manager came over and tried to calm things down and the man haughtily puffed out his chest and said "Well I'm the customer and the customer is always right!"
The manager calmly replied "since you're abusing my colleague I'm refusing to serve you so you're not a customer. Now please leave before I call security."
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
YOU really don;t get this 'shop' concept, do you?
Shops have the right to refuse service, don't they?
They do.
You've been refused before for your choice of footwear, haven't you?
Facemask refusers sound an awful lot like the incel mob.
Haha! That hadn't occured to me. They struck me more as akin to anti-vaxxers in the US. Ultimately its the same approach with the same costs: "I'd rather put your life in danger than wear this mask/give this vaccine to my child".
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
You drive a car right? its pollution could put my life in danger, and there is a big risk of injury through accidents and collisions.
all you have to do for the common good is stop. Its not too much to ask is it? or would you prefer to put my life in danger, you selfish g8t
It really is an indictment of the crass incompetence of the government's messaging that the moderate and completely sensible (albeit a bit tardy) decision to mandate masks in shops has become a political controversy, for no good reason whatsoever. It's an object lesson in how to screw up something simple.
Facemask refusers sound an awful lot like the incel mob.
Haha! That hadn't occured to me. They struck me more as akin to anti-vaxxers in the US. Ultimately its the same approach with the same costs: "I'd rather put your life in danger than wear this mask/give this vaccine to my child".
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
If it's such a good idea why wasn't it brought in 4 months ago?
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
YOU really don;t get this 'shop' concept, do you?
Shops have the right to refuse service, don't they?
They do.
You've been refused before for your choice of footwear, haven't you?
I was once nearly dumped for my potential choice of footwear.
It really is an indictment of the crass incompetence of the government's messaging that the moderate and completely sensible (albeit a bit tardy) decision to mandate masks in shops has become a political controversy, for no good reason whatsoever. It's an object lesson in how to screw up something simple.
True. I now think Johnson won't lead the party into the next election.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Facemask refusers sound an awful lot like the incel mob.
Haha! That hadn't occured to me. They struck me more as akin to anti-vaxxers in the US. Ultimately its the same approach with the same costs: "I'd rather put your life in danger than wear this mask/give this vaccine to my child".
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
If it's such a good idea why wasn't it brought in 4 months ago?
Because it is a new disease and we're learning new things about it on a regular basis?
Absent a vaccine and with the easing of lockdown you'd expect new measures to be put in place.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
To relax the other measures? Hence the move from 2m to 1m + precautions.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Because Brexit has reached the f**king embarrassing stage of we haven't got a deal with the EU and we've just pissed off one of the other two economic giants...
Today's mask argument has completely hid the need for a 15,000 space lorry processing site in Ashford...
Just been down to Totnes for odds and sods. Total number of facemasks spotted 3 (2, excluding mine). Monday is going to come as a shock to the system, there at least.
Also, many of the shops that have opened again are on restricted hours - quite a few closing at 2 or 3pm. Those that are open have issues with getting stock - the recently refurbished electrical store - a rare thing in retail these days, a little group of half a dozen stores that have made a go of it - had just 4 TVs on show. OK if you wanted a tiny telly for the guest bedroom or a £2,500 state of the art beast. Not so much if you wanted something in between.
I suspect this story will be widely repeated across retail. Those who have money to spend may not have the choice available to get them spending.
Quote from the Bari Weiss / New York Times letter.
"But the lessons that ought to have followed the election—lessons about the importance of understanding other Americans, the necessity of resisting tribalism, and the centrality of the free exchange of ideas to a democratic society—have not been learned. Instead, a new consensus has emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at this paper: that truth isn’t a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already known to an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else."
Hang on - the Government justification for the mask policy is now “wear a mask to protect Shop staff”? Shop staff who aren’t themselves wearing masks in large numbers? How is that a message that people are going to universally embrace?
It isn't rocket science, wearing a mask protects others. Plus there's a difference between having to put on a mask for 15 minutes while you go shopping and for 8 hours while you work. Finally not everyone can wear a mask so some are exempt ... But those who can doing so helps protect them.
Yes but millions of people in Britain are driving a cars which belch pollution into the air. These might affect my health. Selfish b@stards.
Actually those cars are required to have masks like a catalytic converter etc as part of the exhaust system in order to protect your health.
If a cars mask isn't working, if it is spewing out black smoke from the exhaust it is likely being driven illegally and would fail an MOT.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
Na, they might just refuse to serve you. The police get called if you kick off.
YOU really don;t get this 'shop' concept, do you?
Shops have the right to refuse service, don't they?
They do.
Generally not a good policy long-term, mind. I assume the big supermarkets will agree not to play silly buggers over this and try to gain an advantage over the competition.
I'm told Starmer is a working class boy from South London, I'm genuinely pleased to hear it.
But he doesn't sound like one, something happened on his journey
Perhaps he realised that in a class-ridden country like England he had to modify his accent to be taken seriously. It may have even been subconscious. He doesn't sound particularly posh, kind of neutral educated middle class, certainly nothing like Johnson or Cameron, or indeed Sunak. I agree he doesn't sound very South London though, I've never heard him call anyone "fam".
Facemask refusers sound an awful lot like the incel mob.
Haha! That hadn't occured to me. They struck me more as akin to anti-vaxxers in the US. Ultimately its the same approach with the same costs: "I'd rather put your life in danger than wear this mask/give this vaccine to my child".
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
If it's such a good idea why wasn't it brought in 4 months ago?
Ask the geniuses in the government why.
I bought my face masks four months ago. If you've ever seen videos from Japan or South Korea you'll see that they were pretty common long before Covid.
Why didn't we do this before is exactly my question. If we can open shops and get people moving around in masks NOW, why couldn't we four months ago and save the lockdown and the economy.
If lockdown was a silver bullet to destroy the virus it failed. If it was designed to reduce the spread it succeded but at a great cost and if it becomes apparent that the same suppresive effect can be achieved with masks we will in time come to regret the preceeding four months very gravely.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Because we need to lift the Draconian restrictions. Social distancing is an evil that may have been a necessary evil but is a burdensome restriction on liberty.
As we lift those burdens alternative solutions are required to take their place.
Or instead of a mask would you rather be a lockdown Nazi keeping us locked up forever but no masks while we are locked at home?
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
You could just wear a mask like a sane person would.
Facemask refusers sound an awful lot like the incel mob.
Haha! That hadn't occured to me. They struck me more as akin to anti-vaxxers in the US. Ultimately its the same approach with the same costs: "I'd rather put your life in danger than wear this mask/give this vaccine to my child".
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
If it's such a good idea why wasn't it brought in 4 months ago?
Replace that with "2 Months ago", when most other western European countries were doing so, and I would that's a very good question. That is no reason to say "there is no point in wearing masks now".
It really is an indictment of the crass incompetence of the government's messaging that the moderate and completely sensible (albeit a bit tardy) decision to mandate masks in shops has become a political controversy, for no good reason whatsoever. It's an object lesson in how to screw up something simple.
People have become very suspicious of this government. Liberties which were taken have not been returned.
It really is an indictment of the crass incompetence of the government's messaging that the moderate and completely sensible (albeit a bit tardy) decision to mandate masks in shops has become a political controversy, for no good reason whatsoever. It's an object lesson in how to screw up something simple.
Nah it's more an indication that lockdown is driving some people crazy ... To the point now that some here would rather stick with lockdown than lift lockdown with masks instead.
Facemask refusers sound an awful lot like the incel mob.
Haha! That hadn't occured to me. They struck me more as akin to anti-vaxxers in the US. Ultimately its the same approach with the same costs: "I'd rather put your life in danger than wear this mask/give this vaccine to my child".
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
If it's such a good idea why wasn't it brought in 4 months ago?
Replace that with "2 Months ago", when most other western European countries were doing so, and I would that's a very good question. That is no reason to say "there is no point in wearing masks now".
France and the Netherlands have both hinted today they might follow our lead.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
To relax the other measures? Hence the move from 2m to 1m + precautions.
The other measures have already been relaxed. The 1m rule and pub opening will have been in place several weeks by the time the mask rule comes into force.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
To relax the other measures? Hence the move from 2m to 1m + precautions.
The other measures have already been relaxed. The 1m rule and pub opening will have been in place several weeks by the time the mask rule comes into force.
The fact they are introducing this is perhaps worrying then.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
You could just wear a mask like a sane person would.
And you should stop endangering my life by driving a car. Think of the pollution threat to me and the risk of injury to yourself and others. Think of the strain you are putting on the NHS.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Because we need to lift the Draconian restrictions. Social distancing is an evil that may have been a necessary evil but is a burdensome restriction on liberty.
As we lift those burdens alternative solutions are required to take their place.
Or instead of a mask would you rather be a lockdown Nazi keeping us locked up forever but no masks while we are locked at home?
I am afraid you are deluded if you think the other social distancing measures will be removed.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Because Brexit has reached the f**king embarrassing stage of we haven't got a deal with the EU and we've just pissed off one of the other two economic giants...
Today's mask argument has completely hid the need for a 15,000 space lorry processing site in Ashford...
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
You could just wear a mask like a sane person would.
And you should stop endangering my life by driving a car. Think of the pollution threat to me and the risk of injury to yourself and others. Think of the strain you are putting on the NHS.
The sane thing to do is stop, clearly.
That's a risk already built into the system. Having capacity to deal with hundreds of thousands with a new disease is not.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
You could just wear a mask like a sane person would.
And you should stop endangering my life by driving a car. Think of the pollution threat to me and the risk of injury to yourself and others. Think of the strain you are putting on the NHS.
The sane thing to do is stop, clearly.
Except the car must have a catalytic converter that does the job of the mask.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
30 year old is Sars-Cov-2 positive but doesn't know it. Goes to boutique without a mask. Infects a 32 year old not wearing a mask. 32 year old visits parents and infects a 60 year old parent. 60 year old spends 5 weeks in hospital.
The atmos at the paper sounds absolutely toxic. I’ve heard similar about other big media organizations, some in the UK, but the NYT is probably the worst.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
You could just wear a mask like a sane person would.
And you should stop endangering my life by driving a car. Think of the pollution threat to me and the risk of injury to yourself and others. Think of the strain you are putting on the NHS.
The sane thing to do is stop, clearly.
You're making a category error. Pollution and the risk of accidents are incremental. There's no exponential network effect in the way there is with an easily transmissible virus. Masks are a common sense way to mitigate some of the risk of carrying out normal activities with the minimum of disruption.
Matt Hancock thinks shops should call the police if they see a person in a shop without a mask.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
You could just wear a mask like a sane person would.
And you should stop endangering my life by driving a car. Think of the pollution threat to me and the risk of injury to yourself and others. Think of the strain you are putting on the NHS.
The sane thing to do is stop, clearly.
That's a risk already built into the system. Having capacity to deal with hundreds of thousands with a new disease is not.
Incorrect, its a risk that you've been conditioned to accept, as opposed to a risk you have been conditioned to reject.
Where are these hundreds of thousands? the hospitals are empty. Why are you believing and taking the advice of people who have been predicting a second wave for weeks only to be proved completely wrong?
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
To relax the other measures? Hence the move from 2m to 1m + precautions.
The other measures have already been relaxed. The 1m rule and pub opening will have been in place several weeks by the time the mask rule comes into force.
This is pretty solid evidence for the persistence of viable infectious virus in aerosol of very small particle size:
Persistence of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 in Aerosol Suspensions https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/9/20-1806_article ...The comparison of short-term aerosol efficiencies of 3 coronaviruses showed SARS-CoV-2 approximates or exceeds the efficiency estimates of SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV. Some efficiency determinations for SARS-CoV-2 ranged to −5.5log10 (Figure 1), a full log difference from MERS-CoV. The higher efficiencies across independent laboratories strengthens this observation. These data suggest that SARS-CoV-2 generally maintains infectivity at a respirable particle size over short distances, in contrast to either betacoronavirus. Aerosol suspension results suggest that SARS-CoV-2 persists longer than would be expected when generated as this size particle (2-µm mass median aerodynamic diameter). This finding is notable because decay and loss in the infectious fraction of airborne virus would be expected on the basis of prior susceptibility studies with other environmentally hardy viruses, such as monkeypox virus (5). A recent study (6) showing only a slight reduction of infectivity in aerosol suspensions with approximately similar particle sizes also suggested minimal effects on SARS-CoV-2 airborne degradation....
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Because we need to lift the Draconian restrictions. Social distancing is an evil that may have been a necessary evil but is a burdensome restriction on liberty.
As we lift those burdens alternative solutions are required to take their place.
Or instead of a mask would you rather be a lockdown Nazi keeping us locked up forever but no masks while we are locked at home?
No of course not. Yet if that is the case, why not say that? ‘We are bringing in shopping masks ahead of binning the 1m rule later’.
Of course, someone somehow might have said that - but the government’s messaging is so dire I got lost in the fog of war.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Because we need to lift the Draconian restrictions. Social distancing is an evil that may have been a necessary evil but is a burdensome restriction on liberty.
As we lift those burdens alternative solutions are required to take their place.
Or instead of a mask would you rather be a lockdown Nazi keeping us locked up forever but no masks while we are locked at home?
I am afraid you are deluded if you think the other social distancing measures will be removed.
Social distancing measures have already started to be removed.
I haven't seen my grandparents since early this year. They're in their nineties I am very worried for them and would like it to be safe to see them again soon.
If that means wearing a damn mask then wear a damn mask. It's not difficult.
Quote from the Bari Weiss / New York Times letter.
"But the lessons that ought to have followed the election—lessons about the importance of understanding other Americans, the necessity of resisting tribalism, and the centrality of the free exchange of ideas to a democratic society—have not been learned. Instead, a new consensus has emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at this paper: that truth isn’t a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already known to an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else."
I'm told Starmer is a working class boy from South London, I'm genuinely pleased to hear it.
But he doesn't sound like one, something happened on his journey
Perhaps he realised that in a class-ridden country like England he had to modify his accent to be taken seriously. It may have even been subconscious. He doesn't sound particularly posh, kind of neutral educated middle class, certainly nothing like Johnson or Cameron, or indeed Sunak. I agree he doesn't sound very South London though, I've never heard him call anyone "fam".
Or that he actually went to a fee paying school in Reigate but it suits him to pretend he's proper working class.
I loathe the whole class system but let's not pretend we're something we're not
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Because Brexit has reached the f**king embarrassing stage of we haven't got a deal with the EU and we've just pissed off one of the other two economic giants...
Today's mask argument has completely hid the need for a 15,000 space lorry processing site in Ashford...
Why Ashford?
Because there isn't anywhere to put it in Dover so you put it to the first available location on the way out of Dover.....
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
To relax the other measures? Hence the move from 2m to 1m + precautions.
The other measures have already been relaxed. The 1m rule and pub opening will have been in place several weeks by the time the mask rule comes into force.
The fact they are introducing this is perhaps worrying then.
Yes, it is worrying. That’s kind of my point!
The government is making an absolute pig’s ear of their comms strategy. It really is utterly amateurish.
Comments
Then again garnering votes under false pretences comes naturally to 'tories' such as yourself. Boles, Rudd, Grieve and co prove though, that you soon get exposed.
Also why the Type C1 roundel with yellow replaced by black? reminds me of those WW2 photos with the wrong mixes of filters and ortho vs pan filsm which gave weird effects where yellow was involved.
Maybe instead of trying to elect politicians who can vibe with the common folk, we should be trying to elect politicians who have even the slightest desire to advance their interests?
Number who died yesterday? today?
As a lower middle class, non-university educated, finance worker from South London I joined a Conservative party that stood up for aspiration and hard work with none of the woke rubbish of the Labour party. I well remember Michael Howard pointing out his origins in comparison to Blair's.
A Conservative party that appeals to the worst angels of human nature and needlesly damages the economy in a bout of idealogical insanity that would have reduced the opportunities I took advantagee of and leaves me fearing that people like me wouldn't have them in future wasn't something I wanted to be associated with.
'nobody stopped me and your license fee paid for it.'
I love Britain sometimes.
Lefty, woke internationalist.
What if politicians and civil servants were paid a sort of retirement bonus, based on the performance of the British economy? A big bonus.
It appears to me, that whilst Britain is not corrupt in the traditional sense, there is a sort of 'nexus' of doing things a very conventional way, a KPMG, Deloitte, G4S sort of way. Politicians will make 'the right' decisions, and perhaps at some future point, they will be paid £20,000 to make an after dinner speech. Or (in the past) further the cause of European integration, and later be rewarded with an EU sinecure.
Being a politician is not an easy job. And politicians get paid comparatively parsimoniously compared to leaders in other industries and sectors. It is hardly surprising that they desire a comfortable retirement, as we all do.
So, why not incentivise them the right way? It is going away. The world will emerge, and in many cases, better. Chill.
Yeah like I really want to go to a shop where the staff are stalinist style government informers sneaking on me to the police at their earliest opportunity.
That's exactly the kind of place I would want to patronise with my custom.
Hancock has totally lost his mind.
This government has totally lost its mind.
So an absolute win for the government.
https://twitter.com/DouglasCarswell/status/1282932538944741379
https://twitter.com/douglaskmurray/status/1283059552410361858?s=21
Countries which clamped down on international air travel early had an easier time.
Countries which have been more gradual at removing restrictions, have seen fewer CV-19 flare ups.
What am I missing?
But he doesn't sound like one, something happened on his journey
If we suggest second wave Europe, with some measures in place, stays below 1.5 at all times and often lower, there will be more time this time for progressive lockdowns. If we assume that test and trace across Europe is now closer to German standard, we can hold down below that for a lot of the time.
Now winter is long, and the battle against the second wave is likely to be a more attritional one than that we encountered in March, but I'm hopeful that any government with even a passing acquaintance with the truth, and ours has, have the tools to avoid the historical truism that the second wave is 2-3 times worse than the first wave.
https://twitter.com/kirkkorner/status/1283064348676628480
So if you wear a mask in a shop, you are increasing the protection (mostly) for everyone else.
I am genuinely shocked that it is a response that large numbers are having in the UK though: the common good is very much at the forefront of people's minds here: wearing a mask (vaccinating your child), is part of the common good.
One of my favourite exchanges that stuck with me I witnessed once was about twenty years ago: a man screaming at a shop assistant in a famous computer game store within a shopping centre - I don't know what had started it but the man was losing his mind at the poor guy working there who was taking the abuse. Manager came over and tried to calm things down and the man haughtily puffed out his chest and said "Well I'm the customer and the customer is always right!"
The manager calmly replied "since you're abusing my colleague I'm refusing to serve you so you're not a customer. Now please leave before I call security."
Quite the right response.
I'm sure that in 3 weeks this will be a non-topic in the UK.
all you have to do for the common good is stop. Its not too much to ask is it? or would you prefer to put my life in danger, you selfish g8t
Delivery of PPE might be slightly delayed.
She asks why introduce masks in all shops (even boutiques, which are rarely visited by the old, infirm and obese) when all the other measures have so obviously worked?
This is what I can’t grasp either.
It’s Tuesday, usually the worst day of the week, yet the deaths announced are very few. The mitigation strategies have clearly worked.
Why then, introduce a fairly draconian one now? I just can’t understand the thinking,
Absent a vaccine and with the easing of lockdown you'd expect new measures to be put in place.
Today's mask argument has completely hid the need for a 15,000 space lorry processing site in Ashford...
Also, many of the shops that have opened again are on restricted hours - quite a few closing at 2 or 3pm. Those that are open have issues with getting stock - the recently refurbished electrical store - a rare thing in retail these days, a little group of half a dozen stores that have made a go of it - had just 4 TVs on show. OK if you wanted a tiny telly for the guest bedroom or a £2,500 state of the art beast. Not so much if you wanted something in between.
I suspect this story will be widely repeated across retail. Those who have money to spend may not have the choice available to get them spending.
"But the lessons that ought to have followed the election—lessons about the importance of understanding other Americans, the necessity of resisting tribalism, and the centrality of the free exchange of ideas to a democratic society—have not been learned. Instead, a new consensus has emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at this paper: that truth isn’t a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already known to an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else."
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter
If a cars mask isn't working, if it is spewing out black smoke from the exhaust it is likely being driven illegally and would fail an MOT.
I've cut this by the last ten days - interesting, isn't it?
I agree he doesn't sound very South London though, I've never heard him call anyone "fam".
I bought my face masks four months ago. If you've ever seen videos from Japan or South Korea you'll see that they were pretty common long before Covid.
Why didn't we do this before is exactly my question. If we can open shops and get people moving around in masks NOW, why couldn't we four months ago and save the lockdown and the economy.
If lockdown was a silver bullet to destroy the virus it failed. If it was designed to reduce the spread it succeded but at a great cost and if it becomes apparent that the same suppresive effect can be achieved with masks we will in time come to regret the preceeding four months very gravely.
As we lift those burdens alternative solutions are required to take their place.
Or instead of a mask would you rather be a lockdown Nazi keeping us locked up forever but no masks while we are locked at home?
(from her bio)
Why should they give another inch?
So no, all other countries haven't done it yet.
The sane thing to do is stop, clearly.
So great point thank you.
32 year old visits parents and infects a 60 year old parent. 60 year old spends 5 weeks in hospital.
Where are these hundreds of thousands? the hospitals are empty. Why are you believing and taking the advice of people who have been predicting a second wave for weeks only to be proved completely wrong?
Why are they so right now?
Persistence of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 in Aerosol Suspensions
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/9/20-1806_article
...The comparison of short-term aerosol efficiencies of 3 coronaviruses showed SARS-CoV-2 approximates or exceeds the efficiency estimates of SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV. Some efficiency determinations for SARS-CoV-2 ranged to −5.5log10 (Figure 1), a full log difference from MERS-CoV. The higher efficiencies across independent laboratories strengthens this observation. These data suggest that SARS-CoV-2 generally maintains infectivity at a respirable particle size over short distances, in contrast to either betacoronavirus. Aerosol suspension results suggest that SARS-CoV-2 persists longer than would be expected when generated as this size particle (2-µm mass median aerodynamic diameter). This finding is notable because decay and loss in the infectious fraction of airborne virus would be expected on the basis of prior susceptibility studies with other environmentally hardy viruses, such as monkeypox virus (5). A recent study (6) showing only a slight reduction of infectivity in aerosol suspensions with approximately similar particle sizes also suggested minimal effects on SARS-CoV-2 airborne degradation....
Of course, someone somehow might have said that - but the government’s messaging is so dire I got lost in the fog of war.
I haven't seen my grandparents since early this year. They're in their nineties I am very worried for them and would like it to be safe to see them again soon.
If that means wearing a damn mask then wear a damn mask. It's not difficult.
I loathe the whole class system but let's not pretend we're something we're not
The government is making an absolute pig’s ear of their comms strategy. It really is utterly amateurish.