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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Lincoln Project’s response to Trump’s pardon of convicted

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    50.4 for Duda.
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 888
    Exit polls:

    Duda 50.4%
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Can you explain why Republican (closed) primaries have seen healthy turnout despite it being essentially uncontested this year?
    For exactly that reason: you have 80% of Registered Republicans being enthused with President Trump. And I mean, genuinely enthused. For the first time, they haven't had to compromise with the left of their party, and they have their man.
    But you just claimed "moderate" Republicans, "the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries", have left them. So that doesn't explain how Trump has been getting contested-election level turnout unless you're claiming Trump supporters have registered R. Do registrations indicate this?

    Many people who have left the Republicans over the years to become Independents are not "moderates", hence why they swung to Trump in 2016.
    So, your contention is that the number of Republicans dropped because the Republican Party was insufficiently Trumpian.

    Well, that should be easy enough to confirm. If it's true, then the number of Registered Republicans should have risen since Trump became President and/or Trump's standing with Independents should be better than his standing with the population as a whole.

    Unfortunately for your thesis:

    (1) The number of Registered Republicans has dropped significantly in the last four years. In 2016, it was 32%, it's now 27-28%. So, President Trump has sped up the loss of voters from the Republican party. (10% of registered supporters in three and a half years is not an impressive achievement.)

    (2) The evidence is that Independents don't particularly like Trump. According to Gallup, his approval numbers with them is 33% - that's five points worse than the population as a whole.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Exit polls:

    Duda 50.4%

    Which could mean a narrow win for Dud's opponent, Mayor T, on assumption (yet unproven) than voters polled MIGHT have been reluctant to say they voted against the regime.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Exit polls:

    Duda 50.4%

    Which could mean a narrow win for Dud's opponent, Mayor T, on assumption (yet unproven) than voters polled MIGHT have been reluctant to say they voted against the regime.
    Is it that type of exit poll rather than the sampling of actual votes type?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited July 2020
    Looks neck and neck on the exit poll from Poland's presidential election, the socially conservative incumbent, Duda, fractionally ahead

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1282389832044613634?s=20
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 888
    Trzaskowski is at 4.1 on BF SSI2 so get on!!
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    On Goldwater Mrs America with Cate Blanchette and Rose Byrne is very good on BBC2 and FX at showcasing the issues of the 1960s and 1970s
    Yes, I've been watching Mrs America and it's excellent. Noticeable that the "culture wars" was a big thing in the early 1970s, primarily around feminism/women's rights, but with a dash of race/BLM thrown in. It just wasn't called culture wars. Things really haven't changed as much as people think - 50 years ago, same old stuff. It's just a bit more instant now and spreads more easily and quickly because of social media.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    Is this the chap who got "liberal" and "left-liberal" confused last time?

    What does he mean by the terms "liberal" and "left" such that he thinks they can be compared?

    In my book, the so-called liberal-left consists of small-minded petty-authoritarians.
    Even so, the quite stark male/female split in political leaning of the current 16-18 year olds, the early exposure to both the further reaches of identity politics and right-wing, anti-identitarian YouTubers. That stuff, as I've noted before, is starting to have an effect.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    tlg86 said:

    Exit polls:

    Duda 50.4%

    Which could mean a narrow win for Dud's opponent, Mayor T, on assumption (yet unproven) than voters polled MIGHT have been reluctant to say they voted against the regime.
    Is it that type of exit poll rather than the sampling of actual votes type?
    According to Guardian blog, "Ipsos exit poll, expected in less than 10 minutes, is carried out for all three major Polish broadcasters: TVP, TVN and Polsat".
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    If Biden does win independents he has likely won the presidency, agreed, given Obama won in 2012 even losing independents to Romney
    You're not still thinking it'll be close are you?
    If nothing changes, then I suspect Biden will walk it.

    But it's a dangerous game to assume that nothing changes.

    We could see the US economy recover strongly, which would go a long way to ensuring Trump's re-election.

    Or we could see CV-19 continuing to drag the US economy South, even as much of the rest of the world recovers - which would pretty much doom him.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
    Exactly. When I last visited, the place looked like someone had pressure washed the place five minutes before. You could still see the poverty outside the centre, but it was as if someone had cleaned the streets in Pre-Guliani New York...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707

    Exit polls:

    Duda 50.4%

    Which could mean a narrow win for Dud's opponent, Mayor T, on assumption (yet unproven) than voters polled MIGHT have been reluctant to say they voted against the regime.
    Duda looks like a lay deal?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Duda helped by a disgraceful attempt by the government to get its base voters out by sending an SMS to all mobile phones telling them older people don’t have to wait in line to vote . The emergency SMS is only supposed to be used for natural disasters .
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
    S Alford was the original “Dirty old town”
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 888
    Tlg, pretty sure is exit poll and not partial vote count, as voting closes 9pm local time.

    Not sure if exit poll factors in votes from abroad which would benefit Trzaskowski
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
    S Alford was the original “Dirty old town”
    But quite a few Dubliners seem to have adopted it as their anthem.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    Are we absolutely sure it went down exactly like this?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
    Salford was the original "dirty old town"



  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    nico67 said:

    Duda helped by a disgraceful attempt by the government to get its base voters out by sending an SMS to all mobile phones telling them older people don’t have to wait in line to vote . The emergency SMS is only supposed to be used for natural disasters .

    Personally think that IF the Dud loses, the heavy-handed Tammany Hall meets Secret Police methods of "Law and Justice" will prove to be a key factor in alienating Polish swing voters.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
    Salford was the original "dirty old town"



    Indeed great Ewan Macoll classic
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    Are we absolutely sure it went down exactly like this?
    Yes - in general the Dubliners I know (and Southern Irish in general) are not impressed by sectarian bollocks. Particularly of the show-off kind.

    Remember when Princes Harry and William went to the Rugby at Croke Park? A couple of idiots tried to turn it into a thing and were told to go away.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
    Salford was the original "dirty old town"



    Couldn't remember the place, but many Dubs knew that, and told me so. Still loved the song, because it spoke to them and was so true to THEIR home town. Am sure many folks from many places from Salford to Singapore have had same reaction.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    If Biden does win independents he has likely won the presidency, agreed, given Obama won in 2012 even losing independents to Romney
    You're not still thinking it'll be close are you?
    If nothing changes, then I suspect Biden will walk it.

    But it's a dangerous game to assume that nothing changes.

    We could see the US economy recover strongly, which would go a long way to ensuring Trump's re-election.

    Or we could see CV-19 continuing to drag the US economy South, even as much of the rest of the world recovers - which would pretty much doom him.
    Yes indeed. But I do think the betting value is on a big Dem win. I sense that people and markets are being unduly influenced by 2 things. The memory of the shock in 2016. The horror of a Trump reelection causing emotional hedging. Mainly the first.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Polish turnout = 68.9% highest since 1989.

  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
    When yours truly was last among the Dubs, "Dirty Old Town" was VERY popular, indeed locals associated it WITH Dublin, which may not be the town the songwriter was thinking about, but which no native would deny is indeed a bit on the grimy side.
    Salford was the original "dirty old town"



    Couldn't remember the place, but many Dubs knew that, and told me so. Still loved the song, because it spoke to them and was so true to THEIR home town. Am sure many folks from many places from Salford to Singapore have had same reaction.
    Yes, I've heard the song claimed for Glasgow, Dublin, London, New York, Chicago, Boston

    But the provenance in this case is quite particular: it's Salford, Lancs
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Life in a Northern Town: Northern Towns
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    London Calling
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Galveston. That's immense.

    EDIT - it's about Galveston in Texas.

    EDIT again - "I can hear your sea wings blowing"
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 888
    DLA (exit poll?) says Duda 51.9

  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    London Calling
    OOOh. Good one. Cracking anthem!

    I LIVE BY THE RIVER

    London has an incredible list of songs dedicated to its horrors/delights

    Probably only NYC matches it maybe, or LA?

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Another: Allentown
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Probably about Bradford but could be about many Northern towns:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGpV0Ot3EeM
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    If Biden does win independents he has likely won the presidency, agreed, given Obama won in 2012 even losing independents to Romney
    You're not still thinking it'll be close are you?
    If nothing changes, then I suspect Biden will walk it.

    But it's a dangerous game to assume that nothing changes.

    We could see the US economy recover strongly, which would go a long way to ensuring Trump's re-election.

    Or we could see CV-19 continuing to drag the US economy South, even as much of the rest of the world recovers - which would pretty much doom him.
    Yes indeed. But I do think the betting value is on a big Dem win. I sense that people and markets are being unduly influenced by 2 things. The memory of the shock in 2016. The horror of a Trump reelection causing emotional hedging. Mainly the first.
    Likelihood of significant economic uptick, let alone strong recovery, between now & November 3 is slim to none. Thanks in part to the obviously way-premature "reopen the economy" push by Trumpsky AND Republican governators.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    London Calling
    Another classic of the creators-are-probably-horrified-by-its-usage.

    Particularly when it was used as an anthem to London in the worst Bond film in many years.....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Waterloo Sunset
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Waterloo Sunset
    Stoke gets in your eyes!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Waterloo Sunset
    Burn on Big River - Cleveland

    Acres of Clams - Seattle

    Here Come the Brides! - also LSeattle

    Small Town - Seymour & Bloomington, Indiana

    El Paso - Marty Robbins classic set in El Paso, Texas

    El Lay Woman

    Via Las Vegas
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    If I have to choose a song about London; Walking Down the King's Road by Squire
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    If Biden does win independents he has likely won the presidency, agreed, given Obama won in 2012 even losing independents to Romney
    You're not still thinking it'll be close are you?
    If nothing changes, then I suspect Biden will walk it.

    But it's a dangerous game to assume that nothing changes.

    We could see the US economy recover strongly, which would go a long way to ensuring Trump's re-election.

    Or we could see CV-19 continuing to drag the US economy South, even as much of the rest of the world recovers - which would pretty much doom him.
    Yes indeed. But I do think the betting value is on a big Dem win. I sense that people and markets are being unduly influenced by 2 things. The memory of the shock in 2016. The horror of a Trump reelection causing emotional hedging. Mainly the first.
    Likelihood of significant economic uptick, let alone strong recovery, between now & November 3 is slim to none. Thanks in part to the obviously way-premature "reopen the economy" push by Trumpsky AND Republican governators.
    I would say that the "re-open" combined with the second peak is entirely responsible for making sure that there is no V shaped recovery before November.

    If that hadn't happened, I think there was a moderate to small chance of such a recovery.

    This disaster is now a wholly owned Trump/Republican property.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Randy Newman's Baltimore is pretty cool.
    Does Werewolves of London count?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    LadyG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    London Calling
    OOOh. Good one. Cracking anthem!

    I LIVE BY THE RIVER

    London has an incredible list of songs dedicated to its horrors/delights

    Probably only NYC matches it maybe, or LA?

    West End Girls
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Only Living Boy In New York, of course

    New York and London do really dominate

    There's a surprising lack of great songs about Paris, or maybe they just don't pierce the Anglophone consciousness
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Galveston. That's immense.

    EDIT - it's about Galveston in Texas.

    EDIT again - "I can hear your sea wings blowing"
    Cracking song, by my favourite US reactionary muso. I believe Jimmy Webb was of a different politacal viewpoint from Glen, but there was a real synergy in their musical relationship. By the Time I get to Phoenix is another cracker.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    LadyG said:

    Only Living Boy In New York, of course

    New York and London do really dominate

    There's a surprising lack of great songs about Paris, or maybe they just don't pierce the Anglophone consciousness

    Only Living Boy in New Cross, please.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    LadyG said:

    Only Living Boy In New York, of course

    New York and London do really dominate

    There's a surprising lack of great songs about Paris, or maybe they just don't pierce the Anglophone consciousness

    Libertango - Grace Jones
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    rcs1000 said:


    So, your contention is that the number of Republicans dropped because the Republican Party was insufficiently Trumpian.

    Well, that should be easy enough to confirm. If it's true, then the number of Registered Republicans should have risen since Trump became President and/or Trump's standing with Independents should be better than his standing with the population as a whole.

    Unfortunately for your thesis:

    (1) The number of Registered Republicans has dropped significantly in the last four years. In 2016, it was 32%, it's now 27-28%. So, President Trump has sped up the loss of voters from the Republican party. (10% of registered supporters in three and a half years is not an impressive achievement.)

    (2) The evidence is that Independents don't particularly like Trump. According to Gallup, his approval numbers with them is 33% - that's five points worse than the population as a whole.

    Apologies, Robert, I meant to come back to your earlier points.

    MY question wasn't so much about the GOP - it could apply to any populist party which stops being popular.

    To take the GOP as a case study, I think a lot depends on the scale of the 2020 defeat.

    IF the Dems sweep the WH AND the Senate, the GOP will be shut out in a way not seen since 2008-10. This would allow them under normal circumstances to rapidly re-position as the party of opposition to "Washington" but if they have seen themselves as a form of opposition ("draining the swamp"), how will that work? Would the pro-Trump faction walk away en masse and hand the party back to the establishment or will they make a stand and initiate a bloodbath for the soul of the GOP?

    IF the Dems win the WH but the GOP keep the Senate, it will be more nuanced. What the French call "co-habitation" isn't always unpopular with the voters and I suspect Biden would quite like a Senate majority formed moderate Democrats and Republicans leaving the pro-Trump Republicans powerless. A lot might depend on whether McConnell survives as Senate Majority Leader.

    Stodge's Fourth Rule of Politics states "big defeats allow big changes". That doesn't mean they happen at once but the process is facilitated by the scale of the disaster.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited July 2020
    Moston by Aitch ;)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Leicester struggling v Bournemouth - down 4 - 1
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Randy Newman's Baltimore is pretty cool.
    Does Werewolves of London count?
    Werewolves definitely counts. Especially because it is about the weirdness of London written by a quintessential west coast singer songwriter

    Desperadoes Under the Eaves (by Zevon of course) is a great song about LA, as is Babylon Sisters by Steely Dan
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    T Shirt Weather in the Manor by Kano is a great song about London if you’re into Hip Hop.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Randy Newman's Baltimore is pretty cool.
    Does Werewolves of London count?
    London Pride

    Last Time I Saw Paris

    Sidewalks of New York - Al Smith's theme song

    Chicago, Chicago - "that toddlin' town" whatever that means

    Detroit City

    Galveston - the greatest anti-war song every written

    Wichita Lineman - another Jimmy Webb - Glen Campbell classic

    Amarillo By Morning

    Proud to Be an Okie from Muskogee

    Riding on the City of New Orleans - about a train, not the town, but close enough

    Battle of New Orleans - about Brits getting thrashed near NO, but again close enough

    Side
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Can you explain why Republican (closed) primaries have seen healthy turnout despite it being essentially uncontested this year?
    For exactly that reason: you have 80% of Registered Republicans being enthused with President Trump. And I mean, genuinely enthused. For the first time, they haven't had to compromise with the left of their party, and they have their man.
    But you just claimed "moderate" Republicans, "the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries", have left them. So that doesn't explain how Trump has been getting contested-election level turnout unless you're claiming Trump supporters have registered R. Do registrations indicate this?

    Many people who have left the Republicans over the years to become Independents are not "moderates", hence why they swung to Trump in 2016.
    So, your contention is that the number of Republicans dropped because the Republican Party was insufficiently Trumpian.

    Well, that should be easy enough to confirm. If it's true, then the number of Registered Republicans should have risen since Trump became President and/or Trump's standing with Independents should be better than his standing with the population as a whole.
    No, my contention is that Republican registration has been dropping over the years for a variety of reasons, but the idea that it mainly due to neocon "moderates" is clearly false otherwise Independents wouldn't have gone for Trump. Ardent Trump supporters are usually not fans of the Republican party machine anymore than they are of the Democrats, and have little reason to register R. "Independents" are quite heterogeneous, some are Trumpian social conservatives but some are very progressive left. Independents are largely those disaffected by Washington politics in general, they are not in general people who are happy with Washington politics. There are many reasons why they are not happy with Trump, not being a "moderate" isn't necessarily one of them.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Last two from me:

    Big Country, Steeltown - Corby
    The Alarm, Deeside
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Vienna.

    Think very carefully before responding.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Fake Tales of San Francisco, which is about Sheffield (and Rotherham) not San Francisco.

    Sunshine on Leith (Edinburgh - or at least Leith).

    Dirty Old Town (Salford).

    Bar Italia (London).

    Sweet Home Chicago (Chicago, obvs).

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    Wouldn't it be Nice - Beach Boys?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Route 66 - Chicago, St Louis, Oklahoma City, Amarillo, Gallup, Flagstaff, Winona, Kingman, Barstow, San Bernadino, Los Angeles.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Fascinating to look at the crosstabs of the two Texas polls out this evening.

    The Dallas Morning News (DMN) poll has Biden leading Trump 48-43 which is astonishing. Among Independents Biden leads 53-29.

    The CBS News/YouGov shows a tie but Trump is up 46-45. Among Independents Trump leads 43-41.

    Make of that what you will...
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,528
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed


    Chicken Town
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Ferry Across the Mersey

    Jackson - "We got married in a fever / Hotter than a pepper sprout / We've been talkin' 'bout Jackson / Ever since the fire went out"

    Philadelphia Freedom

    Is Anybody Going to San Antone (or to Phoenix, Arizona)?

    Arrivederci Roma

    The Girl from Ipanema

    Kansas City - "I'm goin' to Kansas City - Kansas City, here I come"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    stodge said:

    rcs1000 said:


    So, your contention is that the number of Republicans dropped because the Republican Party was insufficiently Trumpian.

    Well, that should be easy enough to confirm. If it's true, then the number of Registered Republicans should have risen since Trump became President and/or Trump's standing with Independents should be better than his standing with the population as a whole.

    Unfortunately for your thesis:

    (1) The number of Registered Republicans has dropped significantly in the last four years. In 2016, it was 32%, it's now 27-28%. So, President Trump has sped up the loss of voters from the Republican party. (10% of registered supporters in three and a half years is not an impressive achievement.)

    (2) The evidence is that Independents don't particularly like Trump. According to Gallup, his approval numbers with them is 33% - that's five points worse than the population as a whole.

    Apologies, Robert, I meant to come back to your earlier points.

    MY question wasn't so much about the GOP - it could apply to any populist party which stops being popular.

    To take the GOP as a case study, I think a lot depends on the scale of the 2020 defeat.

    IF the Dems sweep the WH AND the Senate, the GOP will be shut out in a way not seen since 2008-10. This would allow them under normal circumstances to rapidly re-position as the party of opposition to "Washington" but if they have seen themselves as a form of opposition ("draining the swamp"), how will that work? Would the pro-Trump faction walk away en masse and hand the party back to the establishment or will they make a stand and initiate a bloodbath for the soul of the GOP?

    IF the Dems win the WH but the GOP keep the Senate, it will be more nuanced. What the French call "co-habitation" isn't always unpopular with the voters and I suspect Biden would quite like a Senate majority formed moderate Democrats and Republicans leaving the pro-Trump Republicans powerless. A lot might depend on whether McConnell survives as Senate Majority Leader.

    Stodge's Fourth Rule of Politics states "big defeats allow big changes". That doesn't mean they happen at once but the process is facilitated by the scale of the disaster.
    If Biden wins and the Dems retake the Senate and hold the House the GOP will almost certainly take at least the House in 2022 as they did in 2010 and as the Dems did in 2018
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Fake Tales of San Francisco, which is about Sheffield (and Rotherham) not San Francisco.

    Sunshine on Leith (Edinburgh - or at least Leith).

    Dirty Old Town (Salford).

    Bar Italia (London).

    Sweet Home Chicago (Chicago, obvs).

    Sunshine on Leith is a glorious song

    I was at a family wedding last year, in Lindos on Rhodes, which at night got completely out of hand when we entirely took over the town disco - 300 drunken guests - and we did call-and-response for the chorus of "I'm gonna be 500 miles", about seven times in a row

    (the bride was half Scottish, the rest of us Celtic/English)

    It was truly rousing. A wonderful night. We probably woke up people in Turkey
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Goodbye Mr Mackenzie - Goodwill City : Edinburgh
    Deacon Blue - Raintown : Glasgow
    Love & Money - Jocelyn Square : Glasgow
    Hipsway - Tinder : Glasgow
    Horse - Letter to Anne-Marie : Glasgow
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Leicester have gone all Spursy. We had that at halftime. Oh well...



  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    stodge said:

    Fascinating to look at the crosstabs of the two Texas polls out this evening.

    The Dallas Morning News (DMN) poll has Biden leading Trump 48-43 which is astonishing. Among Independents Biden leads 53-29.

    The CBS News/YouGov shows a tie but Trump is up 46-45. Among Independents Trump leads 43-41.

    Make of that what you will...

    Which is another reason to be sceptical about pronouncing on Independents leanings based on polling outside the main campaign, we aren't going to get realistic samples of likely voters until the campaign begins in earnest.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707
    edited July 2020
    Joe le taxi - Vanessa Paradis
    J’me voyais déjà - Charles Aznavour
    Paris en colère - Mireille Mathieu
    Lobo-hombre en Paris - La uniòn
    Les nuits parisiennes - Louise attaque
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Route 66 - Chicago, St Louis, Oklahoma City, Amarillo, Gallup, Flagstaff, Winona, Kingman, Barstow, San Bernadino, Los Angeles.

    Check out "I've Been Everywhere" in US version, also originally Aussie, etc.

    I've been everywhere, man
    I've been everywhere, man
    Crossed the deserts bare, man
    I've breathed the mountain air, man
    Of travel I've had my share, man
    I've been everywhere
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Can you explain why Republican (closed) primaries have seen healthy turnout despite it being essentially uncontested this year?
    For exactly that reason: you have 80% of Registered Republicans being enthused with President Trump. And I mean, genuinely enthused. For the first time, they haven't had to compromise with the left of their party, and they have their man.
    But you just claimed "moderate" Republicans, "the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries", have left them. So that doesn't explain how Trump has been getting contested-election level turnout unless you're claiming Trump supporters have registered R. Do registrations indicate this?

    Many people who have left the Republicans over the years to become Independents are not "moderates", hence why they swung to Trump in 2016.
    So, your contention is that the number of Republicans dropped because the Republican Party was insufficiently Trumpian.

    Well, that should be easy enough to confirm. If it's true, then the number of Registered Republicans should have risen since Trump became President and/or Trump's standing with Independents should be better than his standing with the population as a whole.
    No, my contention is that Republican registration has been dropping over the years for a variety of reasons, but the idea that it mainly due to neocon "moderates" is clearly false otherwise Independents wouldn't have gone for Trump. Ardent Trump supporters are usually not fans of the Republican party machine anymore than they are of the Democrats, and have little reason to register R. "Independents" are quite heterogeneous, some are Trumpian social conservatives but some are very progressive left. Independents are largely those disaffected by Washington politics in general, they are not in general people who are happy with Washington politics. There are many reasons why they are not happy with Trump, not being a "moderate" isn't necessarily one of them.
    "Ardent Trump supporters are usually not fans of the Republican party".

    If that is the case, why does Trump have such high ratings with the Republicans that remain?

    You seem to be picturing this elite group of Trump supporters, who are not registered Republicans. Where is the evidence for this group? His approval is only 33% among Independents, and of this 33%, fewer than half "strongly approve", so, we're talking about -what- 15% of Independents, who are 30% of the electorate. That's a hardcore 4.5% of the electorate who aren't Republicans and love President Trump.

    Also, why did you use the word "neocon"? Do you think that moderates are particularly keen on invading other countries? Is that something you have polling evidence for?

    You also need to address the question of why the Democrats have lost far fewer of their registered supporters. (Granted, some of this is the natural tendency of parties in power to become narrower churches.)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Foxy said:

    Leicester have gone all Spursy. We had that at halftime. Oh well...



    Hoping City's ban is upheld maybe
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Poland 2020 - Exit Poll by Age

    18-29: Trzaskowski 64% - 35% Duda
    30-39: Trzaskowski 55% - 45% Duda
    40-49: Trzaskowski 55% - 45% Duda
    50-59: Trzaskowski 41% - 59% Duda
    60+: Trzaskowski 38% - 62% Duda
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    LadyG said:

    Only Living Boy In New York, of course

    New York and London do really dominate

    There's a surprising lack of great songs about Paris, or maybe they just don't pierce the Anglophone consciousness

    Ghost Town is a good one, about Cov I think
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Galveston. That's immense.

    EDIT - it's about Galveston in Texas.

    EDIT again - "I can hear your sea wings blowing"
    Cracking song, by my favourite US reactionary muso. I believe Jimmy Webb was of a different politacal viewpoint from Glen, but there was a real synergy in their musical relationship. By the Time I get to Phoenix is another cracker.
    Yes, love lots of their songs. Webb wrote G as a downbeat protest song but Glayun turned it into a feelgood romantic ballad. And one has to say it works better like that.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Joe le taxi - Vanessa Paradis
    J’me voyais déjà - Charles Aznavour
    Paris en colère - Mireille Mathieu
    Lobo-hombre en Paris - La uniòn
    Les nuits parisiennes - Louise attaque

    Those are all a bit shit, no offence mon cher

    It it weird how the French never really grasped the art of popular song. Despite their mastery in so many other forms
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:


    If Biden wins and the Dems retake the Senate and hold the House the GOP will almost certainly take at least the House in 2022 as they did in 2010 and as the Dems did in 2018

    You're working on the "normal" assumption of things and you'd be right on that basis as was the case when the Dems captured the WH in 1992 and Gingrich's Republicans swept the House in 1994.

    Is Trump's GOP the same Party as before or something different? Is it in effect little more than a cult of personality around the President and what happens to that once he is defeated and gone? Will the pro-Trump State and local leaders stay with the Party or will they be replaced by more "establishment" individuals who will revert the GOP to what it was pre-2016?

    This is the question I've been posed - what happens to a populist party once it stops being popular? What is its raison d'etre?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Streets of Baltimore by Gram Parsons beautifully deconstructs the urban hillbilly dream.

    Big Black Smoke by the Kinks similar for 1960s London.



  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    A Heart in New York

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBSO3_o2mFE
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Galveston. That's immense.

    EDIT - it's about Galveston in Texas.

    EDIT again - "I can hear your sea wings blowing"
    Cracking song, by my favourite US reactionary muso. I believe Jimmy Webb was of a different politacal viewpoint from Glen, but there was a real synergy in their musical relationship. By the Time I get to Phoenix is another cracker.
    Yes, love lots of their songs. Webb wrote G as a downbeat protest song but Glayun turned it into a feelgood romantic ballad. And one has to say it works better like that.
    However Galveston is sung (except as elevator music without lyrics) it is a VERY powerful anti-war song. Glenn Campbell did NOT take away from that, if anything he enhanced and strengthened the message.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    LadyG said:

    Joe le taxi - Vanessa Paradis
    J’me voyais déjà - Charles Aznavour
    Paris en colère - Mireille Mathieu
    Lobo-hombre en Paris - La uniòn
    Les nuits parisiennes - Louise attaque

    Those are all a bit shit, no offence mon cher

    It it weird how the French never really grasped the art of popular song. Despite their mastery in so many other forms
    Adam and the Ants : Young Parisiens
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Randy Newman's Baltimore is pretty cool.
    Does Werewolves of London count?
    Werewolves definitely counts. Especially because it is about the weirdness of London written by a quintessential west coast singer songwriter

    Desperadoes Under the Eaves (by Zevon of course) is a great song about LA, as is Babylon Sisters by Steely Dan
    LA has inspired quite a few great songs:

    Drinking in LA
    Bran Van 2000

    Open Up
    Leftfield

    England (which is about the juxtaposition between London and Los Angeles)
    The National

    Sheryl Crowe
    All I Want to Do

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    Only Living Boy In New York, of course

    New York and London do really dominate

    There's a surprising lack of great songs about Paris, or maybe they just don't pierce the Anglophone consciousness

    Ghost Town is a good one, about Cov I think
    It's a great track
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Let's have a PB contest about the best songs about towns!

    My top 5


    Baker Street: London
    White Boy With a Feather: New York
    Molly Malone: Dublin
    Chelsea Morning: New York
    Babylon: London


    Which tells me all the best songs are about London or New York. But I may be biassed

    Randy Newman's Baltimore is pretty cool.
    Does Werewolves of London count?
    Werewolves definitely counts. Especially because it is about the weirdness of London written by a quintessential west coast singer songwriter

    Desperadoes Under the Eaves (by Zevon of course) is a great song about LA, as is Babylon Sisters by Steely Dan
    LA has inspired quite a few great songs:

    Drinking in LA
    Bran Van 2000

    Open Up
    Leftfield

    England (which is about the juxtaposition between London and Los Angeles)
    The National

    Sheryl Crowe
    All I Want to Do

    I just discovered that Open Up is Leftfield and John Lydon.

    I like it even more.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    Leicester have gone all Spursy. We had that at halftime. Oh well...



    Hoping City's ban is upheld maybe
    I think it will be, the CAS rarely overrules a judgement but we are simply too inconsistent for the CL. Europa League may be more our standard.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    LadyG said:

    Joe le taxi - Vanessa Paradis
    J’me voyais déjà - Charles Aznavour
    Paris en colère - Mireille Mathieu
    Lobo-hombre en Paris - La uniòn
    Les nuits parisiennes - Louise attaque

    Those are all a bit shit, no offence mon cher

    It it weird how the French never really grasped the art of popular song. Despite their mastery in so many other forms
    "I've seen that face before (Libertango)".
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Foxy said:

    Streets of Baltimore by Gram Parsons beautifully deconstructs the urban hillbilly dream.

    Big Black Smoke by the Kinks similar for 1960s London.



    Is this the way to Amarillo?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Poland 2020 - Dud is winning eastern Poland (except I'm guess for City of Warsaw) while Mayor T is winning in western Poland,

    Note that most of the latter was part of Germany and mostly occupied by ethnic Germans before WWII. Also that this east-west split is typical Polish post-Communist political pattern,
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Bowie, Heroes, Berlin, of course


    And Grandmaster Flash: the Message. An epochal, pivotal pop song but also viscerally about New York of the day

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PobrSpMwKk4
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    Only Living Boy In New York, of course

    New York and London do really dominate

    There's a surprising lack of great songs about Paris, or maybe they just don't pierce the Anglophone consciousness

    Ghost Town is a good one, about Cov I think
    It's a great track
    I remember coming back from a cycling holiday in France to the news of the riots, with Ghost Town at number 1. Really the most perfect song for its time. Thatchers Britain at its trough.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leicester have gone all Spursy. We had that at halftime. Oh well...



    Hoping City's ban is upheld maybe
    I think it will be, the CAS rarely overrules a judgement but we are simply too inconsistent for the CL. Europa League may be more our standard.
    It is not over until the fat lady sings
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Poland 2020 - Dud is winning eastern Poland (except I'm guess for City of Warsaw) while Mayor T is winning in western Poland,

    Note that most of the latter was part of Germany and mostly occupied by ethnic Germans before WWII. Also that this east-west split is typical Polish post-Communist political pattern,

    There is practically no trace of anything German left in that part of Poland.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    results from nearly 36k votes cast by Poles living in USA:
    Duda 45% versus Trzaskowski 55%

    US expat vote breaks for more conservative candidate - but not this year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    Streets of Baltimore by Gram Parsons beautifully deconstructs the urban hillbilly dream.

    Big Black Smoke by the Kinks similar for 1960s London.



    Is this the way to Amarillo?
    I have been to Amarillo. Don't bother...
This discussion has been closed.