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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Lincoln Project’s response to Trump’s pardon of convicted

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Lincoln Project’s response to Trump’s pardon of convicted felon Roger Stone

There’s little doubt that Trump’s pardon of advisor, Roger Stone, only days before he was due to start a prison sentence is a huge moment in this election campaign.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    First like Arsenal to score at don't call it White Hart Lane in a NLD.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Second like England in the krikkit.
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,069
    IshmaelZ said:

    Second like England in the krikkit.

    You sound just like Jeffrey Boycott.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Second like England in the krikkit.

    You sound just like Jeffrey Boycott.
    Now 22 runs/5 wickets. I'd like to say it's tense, but...
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    DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 706
    Hello all, hope you're all keeping well!

    Polls close in Poland at 8pm BST and my prediction is that Duda will win the second round of the presidential election with 51.2% of the vote.

    Thanks to Alastair for the recent article and apologies to everyone who has had a punt on Trzaskowski, but I will be absolutely amazed if Duda loses.

    Always ready to be proved wrong of course!

    Thanks

    DC
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    There's talk of Tucker Carlson running. But it all nonsense as Trump hasn't lost yet, and even if he does it will take the military to remove him.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,828

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161
    Veep betting.

    Tammy and Susan Rice both on 6.4

    Crossover?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,470

    Hello all, hope you're all keeping well!

    Polls close in Poland at 8pm BST and my prediction is that Duda will win the second round of the presidential election with 51.2% of the vote.

    Thanks to Alastair for the recent article and apologies to everyone who has had a punt on Trzaskowski, but I will be absolutely amazed if Duda loses.

    Always ready to be proved wrong of course!

    Thanks

    DC

    I still miss the ElectionGame.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    When do they stop testing and start the proper contest?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    It’s just nimbyism.

    Although I believe Green was a Remainer to be fair
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    Is Mike Bloomberg going to spend some money on ejecting Trump?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,114
    That shot was not Jermaine to the situation.

    It’s a shame he threw it away like that as he really deserved a century. Exquisite innings in what could have been a tricky chase.

    On topic, what is the difference between Trump’s judgement and Bigfoot?

    There’s some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Charles said:

    It’s just nimbyism.

    Although I believe Green was a Remainer to be fair
    Remained in the office on his laptop after everyone else went home I believe.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    ydoethur said:

    That shot was not Jermaine to the situation.

    It’s a shame he threw it away like that as he really deserved a century. Exquisite innings in what could have been a tricky chase.

    On topic, what is the difference between Trump’s judgement and Bigfoot?

    There’s some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.

    Good game, though, and sets up an interesting series.

    Maybe this is a quality Windies team rather than us being dreadful.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers

    Is that true?

    The leaders of the tea party - according to a 2010 Washington Post survey - were Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Jim DeMint, Ron Paul, and Michele Bachmann.

    The first two of those became big Trump boosters, the third worked in the Trump White House. The fourth has retired, but his son has been a Trump fan (of late, at least). I have no idea about Michele Bachmann.

    The Lincoln Project, according to Wikpedia is led by Steve Schmidt (McCain, Schwarzneggar and George W Bush campaigns) and George Conway. The former of those is definitely no tea party-er, while George Conway might be one, but his sole real claim to fame was being one of Paula Jones's lawyers.

    It's not clear to me that the Lincoln Project is run by "former Tea Partiers".
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    Charles said:

    It’s just nimbyism.

    Although I believe Green was a Remainer to be fair
    Ashford, 59.4% Leave.

    Look before you leap.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    Fucker Carlson for President? America may vote a serially-bankrupt TV "reality" con-artist into 1600 Penn Ave, but NEVER at disgraced "Dancing with the Stars" wash-out.

    Though young Fucker DID burnish his Trumpsky cred by having his chief writer (the brains behind the pretty boy) get fired by Fox News when he was outed as author of years worth of racist, sexist and otherwise vile, anonymous web postings.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,114
    Congratulations to the Windies for a great win. Richly deserved - they outplayed England in every department. I think I'm right in saying the last time they were 1-0 up in a series in England was Edgbaston 2000.

    Let’s hope Root can stiffen the batting and a new keeper is brought in to raise the standard of England’s fielding.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Carpet, welcome back (though I hope you're wrong as I backed the other guy).
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,114
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That shot was not Jermaine to the situation.

    It’s a shame he threw it away like that as he really deserved a century. Exquisite innings in what could have been a tricky chase.

    On topic, what is the difference between Trump’s judgement and Bigfoot?

    There’s some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.

    Good game, though, and sets up an interesting series.

    Maybe this is a quality Windies team rather than us being dreadful.
    Well, it is a much stronger side than the one’s we’ve seen in 20 years. Their bowing was good and their fielding I thought was excellent. Their weakness is the batting, but they did a good job in this test.

    And perhaps I shouldn’t forget many of these same England cricketers thrashed South Africa at home just six months ago.

    But there are clearly weaknesses for England that need addressing. The batting just seems very fragile.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    Fucker Carlson for President? America may vote a serially-bankrupt TV "reality" con-artist into 1600 Penn Ave, but NEVER at disgraced "Dancing with the Stars" wash-out.

    Though young Fucker DID burnish his Trumpsky cred by having his chief writer (the brains behind the pretty boy) get fired by Fox News when he was outed as author of years worth of racist, sexist and otherwise vile, anonymous web postings.

    Tucker Carlson, to his credit, flew down to Florida in March to tell President Trump that CV-19 was real. Without that flight, the US's response to CV-19 might have been even more delayed.
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    Keir being clever on tax rises
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Can you explain why Republican (closed) primaries have seen healthy turnout despite it being essentially uncontested this year?

    Btw "Independents" =/= "moderates"
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,288
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That shot was not Jermaine to the situation.

    It’s a shame he threw it away like that as he really deserved a century. Exquisite innings in what could have been a tricky chase.

    On topic, what is the difference between Trump’s judgement and Bigfoot?

    There’s some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.

    Good game, though, and sets up an interesting series.

    Maybe this is a quality Windies team rather than us being dreadful.
    Good performance from the Womens Institute. Yes, I think they're a better team than their supporters give them credit for.

    England underperformed again. They have the talent but somehow just don't click. The batting is clearly the problem but it's not an easy fix since the fundamental issue is that so many good players don't adjust to Test conditions. The number of times you see good players getting in but not going on suggests a mind-set problem, and I'm not sure how you deal with that.

    The selectors will come in for criticism but for once I'd cut them some slack. How do you pick a side during a pandemic when no serious cricket has been played for months? Changes will be made for the next Test but you'd like to see a more coherent approach informing the whole process, rather than just tinkering.

    I expect Denley will give way to Crawley who will move up to three. Broad will replace Anderson. That would give a side that should win, but so should the one they chose this time.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    rcs1000 said:

    Fucker Carlson for President? America may vote a serially-bankrupt TV "reality" con-artist into 1600 Penn Ave, but NEVER at disgraced "Dancing with the Stars" wash-out.

    Though young Fucker DID burnish his Trumpsky cred by having his chief writer (the brains behind the pretty boy) get fired by Fox News when he was outed as author of years worth of racist, sexist and otherwise vile, anonymous web postings.

    Tucker Carlson, to his credit, flew down to Florida in March to tell President Trump that CV-19 was real. Without that flight, the US's response to CV-19 might have been even more delayed.
    "Without that flight, the US's response to CV-19 might have been even more delayed."

    IF you believe that, then have some beach-front property in Wyoming you should snap up immediately.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    Rod Stewart spent twenty years building his model railway layout; who knew?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Having muffed Huntergate, Rudy is, somewhat derangedly, taking it to the next level.

    https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1282354165390422017?s=20
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    IanB2 said:

    Rod Stewart spent twenty years building his model railway layout; who knew?

    Maggie may have done?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Can you explain why Republican (closed) primaries have seen healthy turnout despite it being essentially uncontested this year?
    For exactly that reason: you have 80% of Registered Republicans being enthused with President Trump. And I mean, genuinely enthused. For the first time, they haven't had to compromise with the left of their party, and they have their man.

    The problem is that Registered Republicans used to be 40% of voters (or even more than that if, you want to go back to the start of Reagan's Presidency), and are now 27-28%.

    Now, sometimes someone is an intellectual giant, who moves the political centre of gravity with their successes. Mrs Thatcher is an example of that and whose provable successes move voters from across the spectrum towards them. People didn't vote for Mrs Thatcher, they may even have opposed her policies, but they saw that they worked, and that moved the political centre of gravity.

    That's not happening in the US. Trump doesn't have any great successes, outside making legal immigration to the US somewhat harder. (And clamping down on L-1 visas is a fairly niche obsession.) He's not got American manufacturing moving, and he's not made the rust belt better (four of the five rust belt states are in the bottom ten growing states in the US over the course of his Presidency).

    Actually, I'm being harsh. He has made the economy grow slightly faster by increasing the deficit - and this is pre-CV19 - to a level only seen in five years in the post War period. His economic success is don't tax, and do spend - which might work in the short term, but sure as shit isn't a long-term strategy for success.

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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499

    Having muffed Huntergate, Rudy is, somewhat derangedly, taking it to the next level.

    https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1282354165390422017?s=20

    Rudy should in all decency (something utterly foreign to his nature) be required to report his "contributions" to 2020 presidential campaign as in-kind donations . . . to Joe Biden.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,288
    Shocking numbers coming in from Florida. I believe more than one in ten has now been diagnosed with C-19 at some point which of course means the actual percenatge is much higher.

    The death rate remains extraordinarily low so either we are going to see a huge increase soon as the time-lag unwinds, or some explanation as to how and why Florida is different to everywhere else.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    What do people reckon for Man City's CAS chances ?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Pulpstar said:

    What do people reckon for Man City's CAS chances ?

    Man City 1-0 UEFA
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Can you explain why Republican (closed) primaries have seen healthy turnout despite it being essentially uncontested this year?

    Btw "Independents" =/= "moderates"
    You question makes somewhat questionable assertion without ANY factoids to back it up. For starters, a few considerations:

    > Democratic presidential race also virtually uncontested post-Super Tuesday.

    > In many states, highly contested GOP primaries (and also some Democratic ones) for US Senator, Governor, US House, other offices.

    > In most jurisdictions, Republicans have higher turnout than Democrats for demographic reasons such as age & income.

    > Covid has further skewed numbers in various ways & degrees; generally least disruption in states with large % of vote cast by mail BEFORE the pandemic, as contrasted with states where laws, regulations & logistics NOT ready to cope with sudden increase in postal voting.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,114

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That shot was not Jermaine to the situation.

    It’s a shame he threw it away like that as he really deserved a century. Exquisite innings in what could have been a tricky chase.

    On topic, what is the difference between Trump’s judgement and Bigfoot?

    There’s some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.

    Good game, though, and sets up an interesting series.

    Maybe this is a quality Windies team rather than us being dreadful.
    Good performance from the Womens Institute. Yes, I think they're a better team than their supporters give them credit for.

    England underperformed again. They have the talent but somehow just don't click. The batting is clearly the problem but it's not an easy fix since the fundamental issue is that so many good players don't adjust to Test conditions. The number of times you see good players getting in but not going on suggests a mind-set problem, and I'm not sure how you deal with that.

    The selectors will come in for criticism but for once I'd cut them some slack. How do you pick a side during a pandemic when no serious cricket has been played for months? Changes will be made for the next Test but you'd like to see a more coherent approach informing the whole process, rather than just tinkering.

    I expect Denley will give way to Crawley who will move up to three. Broad will replace Anderson. That would give a side that should win, but so should the one they chose this time.
    I do not see what Butler brings. He’s a fabulous, extraordinary white ball batsman. But after 42 tests he’s scored one century and averages 30-odd. He’s also hardly a great wicket keeper - does anyone think he’s better than Foakes, Wheater, or Cox? I mean, really? And all of them are capable batsmen.

    If you want the best keeper, pick Foakes. If you want a batsman who can keep, pick Bracey. If you keep picking Butler accept you get neither.

    Better to leave him to take over as white ball captain in due course and have an amazing career there along with Bairstow and Roy.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,130

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That shot was not Jermaine to the situation.

    It’s a shame he threw it away like that as he really deserved a century. Exquisite innings in what could have been a tricky chase.

    On topic, what is the difference between Trump’s judgement and Bigfoot?

    There’s some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.

    Good game, though, and sets up an interesting series.

    Maybe this is a quality Windies team rather than us being dreadful.
    Good performance from the Womens Institute. Yes, I think they're a better team than their supporters give them credit for.

    England underperformed again. They have the talent but somehow just don't click. The batting is clearly the problem but it's not an easy fix since the fundamental issue is that so many good players don't adjust to Test conditions. The number of times you see good players getting in but not going on suggests a mind-set problem, and I'm not sure how you deal with that.

    The selectors will come in for criticism but for once I'd cut them some slack. How do you pick a side during a pandemic when no serious cricket has been played for months? Changes will be made for the next Test but you'd like to see a more coherent approach informing the whole process, rather than just tinkering.

    I expect Denley will give way to Crawley who will move up to three. Broad will replace Anderson. That would give a side that should win, but so should the one they chose this time.
    We have short memories. Won the last three away in SA. WI are a good side. Batting first didn’t work out, partly as the pitch stayed very good throughout. We still had enough chances (dropped catches etc). Plus we seem to start series poorly under normal circs. Hence my (modest) betting winnings...
    Also - great match.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581

    Shocking numbers coming in from Florida. I believe more than one in ten has now been diagnosed with C-19 at some point which of course means the actual percenatge is much higher.

    The death rate remains extraordinarily low so either we are going to see a huge increase soon as the time-lag unwinds, or some explanation as to how and why Florida is different to everywhere else.

    Florida is different because people with Covid die from pneumonia rather than Covid. At least that's what the death certificates say.
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,066
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/boris-johnson-accused-of-plan-emasculate-uk-devolution

    Take back control... of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Brit Nat nature of the Brexit project becomes ever clearer.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Take that Jez and Keir!
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    I think I've sussed the government's new policy:

    If you take a packed lunch, carry on working from home.

    If you buy your lunch from Pret, get your arse back in to the office.

    They don't even pretend to be following scientific advice any more.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,069

    Having muffed Huntergate, Rudy is, somewhat derangedly, taking it to the next level.

    https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1282354165390422017?s=20

    Pots, kettles and a raft of other darkened cooking utensils spring to mind.

    I do believe we have seen over the last week or two that Trump is definitely standing. It would be quite a surprise if he wins either the EC or the popular vote, but either way prising him out of office may be a struggle.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499

    Shocking numbers coming in from Florida. I believe more than one in ten has now been diagnosed with C-19 at some point which of course means the actual percenatge is much higher.

    The death rate remains extraordinarily low so either we are going to see a huge increase soon as the time-lag unwinds, or some explanation as to how and why Florida is different to everywhere else.

    Florida is different because people with Covid die from pneumonia rather than Covid. At least that's what the death certificates say.
    Florida also has higher % of older residents - and voters - than most states, being a MAJOR destination for retirees. BTW, superannuated newcomers from different parts of US tend to cluster in different sections of the Sunshine State.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,470
    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    HYUFD said:
    AZ - looks bit lower than yours truly would expect for Uncle Joe.

    TX - wow

    FL - ditto
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    To an extent ideologically yes but both Goldwater and Trump were businessman outsiders who won the nomination against the Republican establishment preferences of Nelson Rockefeller in 1964 and Jeb Bush in 2016 respectively and just as some of the GOP establishment secretly voted for LBJ in 1964 so some of the GOP establishment will be voting for Biden now
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243
    edited July 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Looking at the list of backers of the Lincoln Project, the idea that it has much to do with the Tea Party seems slightly.... *wrong*.

    It is as much Tea Party as Momentum is a Blarite project run by Peter Mandelson.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    On Goldwater Mrs America with Cate Blanchette and Rose Byrne is very good on BBC2 and FX at showcasing the issues of the 1960s and 1970s
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243
    edited July 2020
    A repost of my favourite invention (at the moment) ....

    And a question for the PB Journalists - Braintree? Pendle?

    image
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    But Barry and The Donald both played/are playing the Race Card for all it's worth. Note that in 1964, five of the states AuH2O carried were won because he was THE White Power candidate. Sound familiar?
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,066
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    Getting groomed by the Alt-right on YouTube?
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Can you explain why Republican (closed) primaries have seen healthy turnout despite it being essentially uncontested this year?
    For exactly that reason: you have 80% of Registered Republicans being enthused with President Trump. And I mean, genuinely enthused. For the first time, they haven't had to compromise with the left of their party, and they have their man.
    But you just claimed "moderate" Republicans, "the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries", have left them. So that doesn't explain how Trump has been getting contested-election level turnout unless you're claiming Trump supporters have registered R. Do registrations indicate this?

    Many people who have left the Republicans over the years to become Independents are not "moderates", hence why they swung to Trump in 2016.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Do you think the GOP could be replaced? It is moving into ever shrinking demographics ( evangelicals, white males), and being associated with policies unpopular with Independents such as abortion bans, anti-LGBT stances, automatic weapons, no background checks and school prayer.
    Unless it backs away and finds more moderate voices it doesn't look mainstream.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    Getting groomed by the Alt-right on YouTube?
    I've witnessed this my own sad old rheumy eyes. Late teens are taking the red pill
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    If Biden does win independents he has likely won the presidency, agreed, given Obama won in 2012 even losing independents to Romney
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,288

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That shot was not Jermaine to the situation.

    It’s a shame he threw it away like that as he really deserved a century. Exquisite innings in what could have been a tricky chase.

    On topic, what is the difference between Trump’s judgement and Bigfoot?

    There’s some evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.

    Good game, though, and sets up an interesting series.

    Maybe this is a quality Windies team rather than us being dreadful.
    Good performance from the Womens Institute. Yes, I think they're a better team than their supporters give them credit for.

    England underperformed again. They have the talent but somehow just don't click. The batting is clearly the problem but it's not an easy fix since the fundamental issue is that so many good players don't adjust to Test conditions. The number of times you see good players getting in but not going on suggests a mind-set problem, and I'm not sure how you deal with that.

    The selectors will come in for criticism but for once I'd cut them some slack. How do you pick a side during a pandemic when no serious cricket has been played for months? Changes will be made for the next Test but you'd like to see a more coherent approach informing the whole process, rather than just tinkering.

    I expect Denley will give way to Crawley who will move up to three. Broad will replace Anderson. That would give a side that should win, but so should the one they chose this time.
    We have short memories. Won the last three away in SA. WI are a good side. Batting first didn’t work out, partly as the pitch stayed very good throughout. We still had enough chances (dropped catches etc). Plus we seem to start series poorly under normal circs. Hence my (modest) betting winnings...
    Also - great match.
    Yes, great match. That should never be overlooked.

    I'm not knocking the team, or even the selectors particularly, but would just like to see a bit more consistency from both.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    So what you are saying is that the Republicans under Trump are becoming a self-radicalising jerk circle?

    While Biden is busy building a coalition. Of everyone else. Including what used to be the left and centre of the Republican party...
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    "both Goldwater and Trump were businessman outsiders"

    Barry inherited and for a time managed his family's Phoenix department store BUT his political appeal was NOT because he was a business tycoon (even are pseudo one like Trumpsky) but was instead based on (very) conservative ideology. Of which "free enterprise" was but one component.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    But Barry and The Donald both played/are playing the Race Card for all it's worth. Note that in 1964, five of the states AuH2O carried were won because he was THE White Power candidate. Sound familiar?
    And every state Goldwater carried in 1964 Trump also carried in 2016
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,648
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    Every generation rebels against their parents. 22-39 years olds parents are much more likely to be brexiteers than 18-21 year olds whose parents will overwhelmingly be remainers. Simples.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    "a self-radicalising jerk circle"

    Or as we Colonials say, a self-radicalizing circle jerk.

    True either way!
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    Slow TV on BBC 4

    I've just heard a duck quack.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Congratulations to the Windies for a great win. Richly deserved - they outplayed England in every department. I think I'm right in saying the last time they were 1-0 up in a series in England was Edgbaston 2000.

    Let’s hope Root can stiffen the batting and a new keeper is brought in to raise the standard of England’s fielding.

    He’s going to have to dig deep and draw on hidden sources to reinvigorate himself
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,114
    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    Getting groomed by the Alt-right on YouTube?
    I've witnessed this my own sad old rheumy eyes. Late teens are taking the red pill
    Alt-right = red?

    Shurely brown or black? (Or Blue in Ireland.)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243

    "a self-radicalising jerk circle"

    Or as we Colonials say, a self-radicalizing circle jerk.

    True either way!

    Once a party heads down that rabbit hole, it is very hard to turn back.

    Starmer might manage that with Labour.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    ydoethur said:

    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    Getting groomed by the Alt-right on YouTube?
    I've witnessed this my own sad old rheumy eyes. Late teens are taking the red pill
    Alt-right = red?

    Shurely brown or black? (Or Blue in Ireland.)
    Black with yellow trim in the US.

  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    But Barry and The Donald both played/are playing the Race Card for all it's worth. Note that in 1964, five of the states AuH2O carried were won because he was THE White Power candidate. Sound familiar?
    And every state Goldwater carried in 1964 Trump also carried in 2016
    Six. Arizona and the deepest South.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499

    "a self-radicalising jerk circle"

    Or as we Colonials say, a self-radicalizing circle jerk.

    True either way!

    Once a party heads down that rabbit hole, it is very hard to turn back.

    Starmer might manage that with Labour.
    In December 1964 pundits were predicting demise of Republican Party. And four years later witnessed election of Richard Nixon.

    In December 1972 pundits were predicting demise of Democratic Party. And four years later witnessed election of Jimmy Carter.

    That's US not UK of course. AND it did take GOP not one, not two, not three, not four but FIVE presidential elections to regain the presidency after Hoobert Hever's 1932 defenestration. AND also took Democrats five elections to regain the White House after self-destructing and thus electing Abraham Lincoln in 1860.

    But think that two-party system tends to lend itself more to short-term come-backs than long-term dominance by any one party. In part because #1 party tends to factionalize quicker & worse-er than #2.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,909
    Tottenham victorious in the North London Derby.

    Son very happy (works on two levels).

    Who knew?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243
    edited July 2020

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,909
    FL DEM+6

    Trumpton hasn’t had a lead there in any poll since March IIRC. But, even so, fuck me!
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,213

    A repost of my favourite invention (at the moment) ....

    And a question for the PB Journalists - Braintree? Pendle?

    image

    NHS England regional case data out -

    It may be weekend reporting effects but it looks like the Herefordshire spike is not ongoing. The column for yesterday is generally 0 in the data, but there are numbers elsewhere for the day before.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-53381802

    Up to 200 workers have been told to self-isolate on the farm where they pick crops after 73 colleagues tested positive for Covid-19.

    Vegetable producers A S Green and Co, in Herefordshire, has gone into lockdown after the positive tests.

    Food and other essential supplies are being delivered to the farm, where the workers have been segregated into the mobile homes they live in.

    The firm is also being supported by Public Health England (PHE).

    Herefordshire Council, which has organised the supply of deliveries, believes the outbreak is "contained" on the farm.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243
    I have carefully considered the issue. As a scientist, I would say that this is an example of...

    A Deliberate Fucking Idiot.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,499
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    But Barry and The Donald both played/are playing the Race Card for all it's worth. Note that in 1964, five of the states AuH2O carried were won because he was THE White Power candidate. Sound familiar?
    And every state Goldwater carried in 1964 Trump also carried in 2016
    Six. Arizona and the deepest South.
    In 1964, Barry Goldwater carried AZ for GOP plus (from west to east) Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia & South Carolina.

    In 1948, Strom Thurmond as 3rd-party States Right Democrat (aka "Dixiecrat") carried same states as Goldwater EXCEPT for Georgia (Truman won)

    In 1968, George Wallace as 3rd-party American Independent carried Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Georgia but NOT South Carolina, which went for Richard Nixon thanks in large measure to now-Republican US Sen. Strom Thurmond.

    In 2020, think Trumpsky likely to win AR, LA, MS, AL & SC, but believe he will lose AZ and possibly even GA.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,909

    Shocking numbers coming in from Florida. I believe more than one in ten has now been diagnosed with C-19 at some point which of course means the actual percenatge is much higher.

    The death rate remains extraordinarily low so either we are going to see a huge increase soon as the time-lag unwinds, or some explanation as to how and why Florida is different to everywhere else.

    Is it different to everywhere else? My sense is that the death rate (generally) falls after the first peak because a) medics are better at treating it and b) the demographic profile of the infected tends to the more resilient.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Note that NOT all of Lincoln Project contributors (funds & content) are Tea Party hearties. Many are Bushies, while others are moderates in the (dying) tradition of Nelson Rockefeller and former WA State 3-term GOP Gov. Dan Evans.

    In other words, THEIR tent is bigger than that of US branch of the Putinist International.

    And many of them would have opposed Barry Goldwater in 1964 well before Trump came along
    Goldwater and Trump are very different. Goldwater was a small government Republican who believed that systems mattered more than people; Trump is a big government Republican who believes in the power of the great man.
    On Goldwater Mrs America with Cate Blanchette and Rose Byrne is very good on BBC2 and FX at showcasing the issues of the 1960s and 1970s
    About to plunge into that so no spoilers please.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243

    A repost of my favourite invention (at the moment) ....

    And a question for the PB Journalists - Braintree? Pendle?

    image

    NHS England regional case data out -

    It may be weekend reporting effects but it looks like the Herefordshire spike is not ongoing. The column for yesterday is generally 0 in the data, but there are numbers elsewhere for the day before.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-53381802

    Up to 200 workers have been told to self-isolate on the farm where they pick crops after 73 colleagues tested positive for Covid-19.

    Vegetable producers A S Green and Co, in Herefordshire, has gone into lockdown after the positive tests.

    Food and other essential supplies are being delivered to the farm, where the workers have been segregated into the mobile homes they live in.

    The firm is also being supported by Public Health England (PHE).

    Herefordshire Council, which has organised the supply of deliveries, believes the outbreak is "contained" on the farm.
    What I meant by my comment is that, it appears from the data and the news reports, that the spike has been contained at the farm, rather than become a general issue for the area.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    If Biden does win independents he has likely won the presidency, agreed, given Obama won in 2012 even losing independents to Romney
    You're not still thinking it'll be close are you?
  • Options
    DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 706
    edited July 2020
    Poland TV links:

    https://tvpstream.vod.tvp.pl/

    https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2020-07-12/wieczor-wyborczy-polska-wybiera-wybory-prezydenckie-2020-ogladaj/?ref=slider

    Something else about Poland is that the vote count (as with Chile) tends to be a big "dump" of results at intervals, rather than live counts available for multiple precincts as in most countries - I wonder whether the Polish approach makes it easier to fix the result if that's what is needed?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,114

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,129
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    If you're not a racist reactionary at 18 you have no soul. If you're still a racist reactionary at 48 you have no brains.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,399

    A repost of my favourite invention (at the moment) ....

    And a question for the PB Journalists - Braintree? Pendle?

    image

    NHS England regional case data out -

    It may be weekend reporting effects but it looks like the Herefordshire spike is not ongoing. The column for yesterday is generally 0 in the data, but there are numbers elsewhere for the day before.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-53381802

    Up to 200 workers have been told to self-isolate on the farm where they pick crops after 73 colleagues tested positive for Covid-19.

    Vegetable producers A S Green and Co, in Herefordshire, has gone into lockdown after the positive tests.

    Food and other essential supplies are being delivered to the farm, where the workers have been segregated into the mobile homes they live in.

    The firm is also being supported by Public Health England (PHE).

    Herefordshire Council, which has organised the supply of deliveries, believes the outbreak is "contained" on the farm.
    Time for an adjustment of the redness scale, so it can be a juicy media-panic again.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243
    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Another entertaining moment was realising that the Northern Irishman I was talking to in a New Orleans Irish Pub (complete with collecting tin for the boyos) was a Loyalist.

    Of the kind who'd had to leave NI because of the peace process.

    I think it was the only place he felt at home.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    This may be literally a category error. Ultra-liberal views can be seen as either right-wing or left-wing depending on your point of view.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,243
    ydoethur said:

    re: colors was once slightly uneasy in a Dublin chippy because I was wearing a bright red coat - though luckily also had on a green scarf.

    BTW the chippy was in Stoneybatter which methought was rather apt.

    An entertaining moment was when on St Paddy's day, a bunch of Dutch guys rocked up in the very Irish pub I was in.

    They had just come from watching Oranje play in a nearby Dutch bar.

    In a brilliant display of oratorical skill that I have no memory of, I stopped a potential riot long enough to explain the mistake to both sides.

    The Dutch guys all bought Irish ruby shirts from behind the bar - it was a rugby pub. Not a single punch was thrown.
    An acquaintance - not a friend - of mine, being thick and rather xenophobic, once went into a pub in Dublin for the sole purpose of ordering an Irish Car Bomb.

    I still do not know how he got out alive.
    Most people in Dublin are really quite relaxed.

    I was there for a friends wedding. In the pub, I asked the guy playing a guitar and signing if he could play "Dirty Old Town" - a favourite of the groom to be.

    A pillock overheard my accent and shouted out - "Only after you sing The Men Behind The Wire".

    Without missing a beat the guy with the guitar replied for me - "Only after you sing Good King Billy".

    Which bought the house down. Said pillock left. On his own.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,213
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    The Lincoln Project is made up of former Tea Partiers, who have clearly decided that their political project has nothing to fear from a Biden presidency.

    I wonder if in four years the GOP will be running somebody who's even more of a maniac than Trump and people like Mike will be celebrating ads by "principled" Trump supporters saying that this next candidate is a bridge too far.

    That's a far more interesting question.

    How do "populist" parties respond when they are no longer popular?

    Normally, when a Party loses power after a longer or shorter period in office, it has two options, either, to maintain its position and hope the electorate comes back to it or to change its position to move to where the electorate now is (or where the Party thinks it is).

    You'd think that process would be easy but it isn't and it can take parties out of power a long time to realise a) they aren't in power any more and b) how they are going to get back into power.
    The problem the Republican Party has is that its more moderate supporters - the people who register as Republicans and then vote in primaries - have left them. It's not inconceivable that (if Trump wins again this year) that less than a quarter of voters will be registered Republicans by the end of 2024. And the smaller in number (and more fanatical and intellectually pure) the supporter base, the harder it is to tack away from extreme positions.
    Moderates yes but the Republicans have not won Moderates since Reagan in 1984.
    Hillary won them by 11% in 2016.

    It is Independents Trump needs to win again, he won them by 5% in 2016
    My point is that moderate Republicans have left the party (hence the fall in the number of Registered Republicans), and that means that those that remain are more 'hard core'.

    If the Democrats had nominated Warren or Sanders, I have no doubt that Trump would have won Independents again in 2020. With Biden, who may have dementia, but generally considered moderate, I think the Dems probably win Independents this time around.
    If Biden does win independents he has likely won the presidency, agreed, given Obama won in 2012 even losing independents to Romney
    You're not still thinking it'll be close are you?
    HYUFD = Trump fan-boy.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,399
    edited July 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Eric Kaufmann:

    "Something unusual is happening among Britain’s youngest voters, known as Generation Z or the Zoomers. Increasingly, those under the age of 22 seem to be diverging from voters aged between 22 and 39, and appear considerably more conservative, to the point where today’s 18-year-olds are about as right-wing as 40 year-olds.

    How might this be explained? Are Zoomers just more irreverent, reacting against their politically-correct older siblings? Or is it that Britain’s newest voters are simply too young to have been shaped by the Brexit shock? Whatever the explanation, in the immediate post-Brexit years the youngest voters were 40 points more liberal than the oldest. Today they are only 20 points more to the Left."

    https://unherd.com/2020/07/are-the-jordan-peterson-generation-of-zoomers-turning-right/

    Is this the chap who got "liberal" and "left-liberal" confused last time?

    What does he mean by the terms "liberal" and "left" such that he thinks they can be compared?

    In my book, the so-called liberal-left consists of small-minded petty-authoritarians.
This discussion has been closed.