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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2020 looks set to be the biggest political betting event of

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited July 2020
    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.

    Scott_xP said:
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    That was always the slightly weird thing about Starkey, how in demand he was by QT and the like. I suppose the 'distinguished historian' fig leaf was handy though what they really wanted was the Faragist pus he enjoyed squirting over the airwaves.
    That was my impression. Reactionary shock jock of the revolving bow tie sort employed to say fruity things.

    Fair enough, why not. But he is a prime example of one of my most unfavourite types of bloke - the overbearing pontificating sort who feels entitled to be heard at great length on anything and everything. Throw in the politics and the mannered poshness and you've pretty much got a package that I can live without very easily indeed.

    That said, I have been able to enjoy some of the historical documentaries he has done.
    Speaking as a PBer with at least six of David Starkey's DVDs on the shelf behind me, and maybe a couple more in the other room, I too enjoyed his documentaries and avoided his musings on other subjects.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Big week for me.

    First PB confirms to me what I had suspected, that "gaslighting" is a meaningless term as applied to political discourse albeit it has a place in the far reaches of DSM V.

    And secondly, I have found out who Darren Grimes is.

    The weekend awaits...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Tomorrow is the 4th July, Independence Day! Tomorrow the pubs are open. Have a drink on me. Full year boots!
    Tomorrow is Derby Day.
    Any tips for the nags?

    (I’ll try and contribute some more for the racing cars).
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Tomorrow is the 4th July, Independence Day! Tomorrow the pubs are open. Have a drink on me. Full year boots!
    Tomorrow is Derby Day.
    True, how are racecourses making any money without spectators ?
    Some like Epsom will get a large TV audience on such a day.
    However a rainy day at Catterick less so.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    ydoethur said:

    Phil said:

    LadyG said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    You draw it on the side of Starkey getting the boot. This one is unambiguous: the point isn't to suppress unfashionable arguments but not to be rudely vile.
    Yes. I loathe cancel culture but Starkey's comment was ugly and intolerable. What did he expect to happen?

    Mind you, it is rank hypocrisy that Cambridge University was so quick to defenstrate Starkey, yet so eager to defend - on the grounds of free speech - the woman, Gopal, who said White Lives Don't Matter - an explicit bit of race-baiting which even Twitter found unacceptable
    That tweet was contextualised with the caveat "... as white lives" as I recall. Which is guaranteed to rile up the alt-right, but if your only claim to identity is "whiteness" then you’ve got problems frankly.
    It was - but Twitter took it down. Not sure whether it was the bad publicity or they believed it was racist

    To be blunt, since it seems she was deliberately trying to throw petrol on the fire, she should probably be sacked from Cambridge for being a complete moron.

    That’s doubly so as (a) she’s notorious for slinging around accusations of racism on dubious grounds (she refused to attend King’s College because the porters called her ‘madam’, which she claimed was racist) and (b) her publication record is pathetic. Normally you would need six or seven books to be a professor in the liberal arts in a reputable U.K. university. She’s somehow managed it with two and a handful of articles. She’s actually published less than I have.

    That begs a number of concerning questions about why and how she’s got where she has.

    But in a sense, that’s tangential to the issue that Starkey’s comments were clearly unacceptable and he had to quit.
    To me, her tweet was right up to the line. I’m not surprised that Twitter took it down. (did they? or was that the other fake tweets?)

    I’m not qualified to comment on her academic record.

    Starkey is a disappointment though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    If it's all as reported, the BBC should apologise, clarify and reimburse Grimes' costs immediately. (That initial letter won't have been for free !).
    I think he wins the libel action if they don't.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    What if he wrote the seminal work on Henry VII. Would you read it?
    No.

    But if I had a big interest in Henry VII - yes.

    You're not going up against the whole PB community on this one, are you?
    So you don't care that he is a racist? Noted.
    Oi - gaslighting!
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Phil said:

    LadyG said:

    Phil said:

    LadyG said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    You draw it on the side of Starkey getting the boot. This one is unambiguous: the point isn't to suppress unfashionable arguments but not to be rudely vile.
    Yes. I loathe cancel culture but Starkey's comment was ugly and intolerable. What did he expect to happen?

    Mind you, it is rank hypocrisy that Cambridge University was so quick to defenstrate Starkey, yet so eager to defend - on the grounds of free speech - the woman, Gopal, who said White Lives Don't Matter - an explicit bit of race-baiting which even Twitter found unacceptable
    That tweet was contextualised with the caveat "... as white lives" as I recall. Which is guaranteed to rile up the alt-right, but if your only claim to identity is "whiteness" then you’ve got problems frankly.

    The last I heard of this story is that the other tweets that attributed to her that were definitively over the line were fictions made up by trolls looking to stir up more conflict. IIRC the Daily Mail published the false ones & she is suing them for defamation isn’t she?

    Give over.

    If she had said "Black Lives Don't Matter. As Black Lives", or "Jewish Lives Don't Matter" etc etc, she would have been sacked like Starkey for racism and race-baiting.

    She should at the very least have been reprimanded by Cambridge, but instead they rushed out some sanctimonious claptrap about "the absolute right to free speech at universities", which, in today's climate, is just laughable

    I agree: it was deliberately inflammatory. But it wasn’t (quite) the thing that people accused her of.
    It was one of the purest example of race-baiting that I have seen.

    It was inflammatory, nasty, provocative, ugly, and, to most people, clearly racist. "White Lives Don't Matter".

    It was also utterly pointless, apart from stirring up racialised grievance and anxiety, and delivering more attention to Ms Gopal, attention which she clearly adores

    She's a race-baiter, and she does not benefit the reputation of Cambridge.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Yorkcity said:

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Tomorrow is the 4th July, Independence Day! Tomorrow the pubs are open. Have a drink on me. Full year boots!
    Tomorrow is Derby Day.
    True, how are racecourses making any money without spectators ?
    Some like Epsom will get a large TV audience on such a day.
    However a rainy day at Catterick less so.
    Don’t they get a cut from the bookies? Or is that only the on-course ones?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does it need to? And going forward, does it need to join every EU scheme under the sun?
    What if the UK vaccine currently being developed doesn’t work out ? Wouldn’t it make sense to have an insurance policy ? Or does the hatred of anything with EU in the name by the cabinet mean the UK puts all its eggs in one basket .
    You think the only way of doing that is with the EU?
    I think Tonga has an advanced programme which we could ask to piggyback.
    Since you're mocking Tonga can you point me in the direction of the advanced programmes of research the EU has into a vaccine? How do they compare with the Oxford/Astrazenica research?
    Mocking Tonga? Your kidding, right? I think we should jump in with both feet to whatever they are doing.

    Why wouldn't I? Tonga and the EU are pretty similar in all sorts of ways.
    I think we should keep open eyes to what everyone's doing but I'm not especially familiar with either Tonga's scheme of research or the EU's.

    I'm aware of trials ongoing in the UK, USA, Brazil, South Africa, China and elsewhere - I'm curious about these EU trials to which you refer can you point me in their direction please I'd like to read up on them?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited July 2020
    Phil said:

    ydoethur said:

    Phil said:

    LadyG said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    You draw it on the side of Starkey getting the boot. This one is unambiguous: the point isn't to suppress unfashionable arguments but not to be rudely vile.
    Yes. I loathe cancel culture but Starkey's comment was ugly and intolerable. What did he expect to happen?

    Mind you, it is rank hypocrisy that Cambridge University was so quick to defenstrate Starkey, yet so eager to defend - on the grounds of free speech - the woman, Gopal, who said White Lives Don't Matter - an explicit bit of race-baiting which even Twitter found unacceptable
    That tweet was contextualised with the caveat "... as white lives" as I recall. Which is guaranteed to rile up the alt-right, but if your only claim to identity is "whiteness" then you’ve got problems frankly.
    It was - but Twitter took it down. Not sure whether it was the bad publicity or they believed it was racist

    To be blunt, since it seems she was deliberately trying to throw petrol on the fire, she should probably be sacked from Cambridge for being a complete moron.

    That’s doubly so as (a) she’s notorious for slinging around accusations of racism on dubious grounds (she refused to attend King’s College because the porters called her ‘madam’, which she claimed was racist) and (b) her publication record is pathetic. Normally you would need six or seven books to be a professor in the liberal arts in a reputable U.K. university. She’s somehow managed it with two and a handful of articles. She’s actually published less than I have.

    That begs a number of concerning questions about why and how she’s got where she has.

    But in a sense, that’s tangential to the issue that Starkey’s comments were clearly unacceptable and he had to quit.
    To me, her tweet was right up to the line. I’m not surprised that Twitter took it down. (did they? or was that the other fake tweets?)

    I’m not qualified to comment on her academic record.

    Starkey is a disappointment though.
    Yes, Twitter took it down as being abusive and harmful. It is staggering she was not even asked to apologise, by Cambridge
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    What if he wrote the seminal work on Henry VII. Would you read it?
    1. I'd be extremely surprised.
    2. I'd wait for @ydoethur to review it.
    You’d be waiting quite a while. I’m more into Henry VI, Edward IV and Richard III. Henry VII was important, but he’s not only rather dull by comparison (which was unsurprisingly reasonably popular at least for time after a child killing wife swindling niece groping land grasping psychopath) he’s also very difficult to get under the skin of. No biographer of him from Bacon onwards has ever shown any real sign of understanding him.
    His regime also, AIUI..... stand to be corrected....... brought peace and stability after a somewhat horrendous several years. And there's nothing your average peasant and merchant likes better than a chance to get on with whatever it is they do without having their sons dragged away to fight in wars the purpose of which they only dimly understand, and care even less.
    Although as, IIRC< Mr Malmesbury pointed out the other day, the bitterness engendered by those wars travels down the ages.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Tomorrow is the 4th July, Independence Day! Tomorrow the pubs are open. Have a drink on me. Full year boots!
    Maybe fill !!!!!
    York has loads of pubs in the city centre.
    However many are very small , hard to see them making a living, even with the reduction to 1m plus social distancing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does it need to? And going forward, does it need to join every EU scheme under the sun?
    What if the UK vaccine currently being developed doesn’t work out ? Wouldn’t it make sense to have an insurance policy ? Or does the hatred of anything with EU in the name by the cabinet mean the UK puts all its eggs in one basket .
    You think the only way of doing that is with the EU?
    I think Tonga has an advanced programme which we could ask to piggyback.
    Since you're mocking Tonga can you point me in the direction of the advanced programmes of research the EU has into a vaccine? How do they compare with the Oxford/Astrazenica research?
    Mocking Tonga? Your kidding, right? I think we should jump in with both feet to whatever they are doing.

    Why wouldn't I? Tonga and the EU are pretty similar in all sorts of ways.
    I think we should keep open eyes to what everyone's doing but I'm not especially familiar with either Tonga's scheme of research or the EU's.

    I'm aware of trials ongoing in the UK, USA, Brazil, South Africa, China and elsewhere - I'm curious about these EU trials to which you refer can you point me in their direction please I'd like to read up on them?
    Where did I refer to "EU trials"?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does it need to? And going forward, does it need to join every EU scheme under the sun?
    What if the UK vaccine currently being developed doesn’t work out ? Wouldn’t it make sense to have an insurance policy ? Or does the hatred of anything with EU in the name by the cabinet mean the UK puts all its eggs in one basket .
    You think the only way of doing that is with the EU?
    I think Tonga has an advanced programme which we could ask to piggyback.
    Since you're mocking Tonga can you point me in the direction of the advanced programmes of research the EU has into a vaccine? How do they compare with the Oxford/Astrazenica research?
    Mocking Tonga? Your kidding, right? I think we should jump in with both feet to whatever they are doing.

    Why wouldn't I? Tonga and the EU are pretty similar in all sorts of ways.
    I think we should keep open eyes to what everyone's doing but I'm not especially familiar with either Tonga's scheme of research or the EU's.

    I'm aware of trials ongoing in the UK, USA, Brazil, South Africa, China and elsewhere - I'm curious about these EU trials to which you refer can you point me in their direction please I'd like to read up on them?
    Here you go, one of the main candidates is this one:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_1034
    https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/pfizer-biontech-vaccine-data/

    (although I think the EU's new announcement is more about buying power than research).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Yorkcity said:

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Tomorrow is the 4th July, Independence Day! Tomorrow the pubs are open. Have a drink on me. Full year boots!
    Tomorrow is Derby Day.
    True, how are racecourses making any money without spectators ?
    Some like Epsom will get a large TV audience on such a day.
    However a rainy day at Catterick less so.
    Presumably sponsors and media rights holders are paying the event staging cost themselves, as with F1?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for BoJo's nomenclature? Nor really fussed tbh.

    I think OnlyLivingBoy goes too far, but I do agree that that "Boris" is problematic, even if only mildly. From an electoral advantage point of view, I mean. Fair playing field and all that. So it`s Johnson and Starmer for me. Always has been.
    I don't see why using a forename is problematic at all.

    "Call me Tony" started this before Boris was an MP and when I was a child. Then we had "Dave" decades later.

    I couldn't give less of a s**t if people say Boris or Johnson and the more people whinge about it the more tempted I am to just write Boris.
    You are a big big supporter of his. So "Boris" makes sense for you. You want to push his brand. You want him to prosper.

    Any "Johnson" from you - which we do sometimes get - is a bonus and much appreciated.
    But I don't call him Boris to be partisan, I do it because its his name.

    Just like Tony or Gordon before him.
    If you had called Blair "Charles" or "Anthony" - also one of his names - then that would have been weird.

    Johnson reportedly goes by the name Al in his private life, so using that makes some sense. Although "Boris" is one of his names he uses it as a brand identity. Perhaps Blair was the same and doesn't use "Tony" in his private life.

    I think the aspect of it being a public persona, rather than a more natural intimacy, is worthy of comment (but not whinging, oh no, never that).
    That's ridiculous. I couldn't care what name he uses privately, he's not Al to me. Boris is his name, just like Tony Blair's public name was Tony even if it wasn't his first name. Gordon Brown's public name was Gordon even if it wasn't his first name.

    I don't think public personas for public people is worthy of comment, public people should be entitled to private lives just like everyone else.

    Superman gets in the news for his actions under that name, even if his friends in private life call him Clark in his private life, or his parents called him Kal-El.
    That's an interesting (!) persona that pops into your mind when you think of Boris Johnson. Superman.

    What's going on there?
    I had a feeling you'd respond to that. :grin:

    I didn't compare Boris to Clark Kent - and if I really wanted to compliment him I'd compare him to Bruce Wayne instead. But I don't, not like that.
    OK. If you were just trying to trigger me it's mission accomplished.

    I wouldn't put it past you to subliminally think Superman - tight yellow top, red trunks and all - when you see him but I will accept for now that this is not the case.

    Disappointed with that "Boris" there.
    In any case, it was John Major who first channelled Superman. Or am I too influenced by Steve Bell's cartoons?

    Edit: Idiot that I am. It was Harold Macmillan who was first.
    Ah, the "shirt tucked into underpants" meme. Yes, that was enormously damaging for Major. Johnson takes no chances on that score. Shirt rarely tucked into anything.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Sandpit said:

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Tomorrow is the 4th July, Independence Day! Tomorrow the pubs are open. Have a drink on me. Full year boots!
    Tomorrow is Derby Day.
    Any tips for the nags?

    (I’ll try and contribute some more for the racing cars).
    Worthily E/W at 40/1

    Gosden would not run him unless he had showed him something special
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    edited July 2020
    TOPPING said:

    Big week for me.

    First PB confirms to me what I had suspected, that "gaslighting" is a meaningless term as applied to political discourse albeit it has a place in the far reaches of DSM V.

    And secondly, I have found out who Darren Grimes is.

    The weekend awaits...

    I haven't seen the film Gaslight, but I believe the plot centres around a man deliberately convincing a woman she is insane. My understanding of the term now is that someone says they are experiencing racism and someone else says they are not, trying to make the racism sufferer think that they are crazy. I can see why the term gaslight was chosen, but unless the gaslighter has deliberately perpetrated the racism themselves, a vital component is surely missing. They are not gaslighting; they're disagreeing.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Press up conference surely? The challenge has been issued.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited July 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    What if he wrote the seminal work on Henry VII. Would you read it?
    1. I'd be extremely surprised.
    2. I'd wait for @ydoethur to review it.
    You’d be waiting quite a while. I’m more into Henry VI, Edward IV and Richard III. Henry VII was important, but he’s not only rather dull by comparison (which was unsurprisingly reasonably popular at least for time after a child killing wife swindling niece groping land grasping psychopath) he’s also very difficult to get under the skin of. No biographer of him from Bacon onwards has ever shown any real sign of understanding him.
    His regime also, AIUI..... stand to be corrected....... brought peace and stability after a somewhat horrendous several years. And there's nothing your average peasant and merchant likes better than a chance to get on with whatever it is they do without having their sons dragged away to fight in wars the purpose of which they only dimly understand, and care even less.
    Although as, IIRC< Mr Malmesbury pointed out the other day, the bitterness engendered by those wars travels down the ages.
    No. There had been instability from 1483-1485, but that was preceded by twelve years of peace.

    Edward IV ended the Wars of the Roses at Tewkesbury with the deaths of Edward Prince of Wales and the last of the male Beauforts. His second reign was noted for its calm and prosperity.

    Yes, Richard stupidly buggered everything up through his greed and ambition but the actual fighting was pretty limited. Bosworth was the only battle, and compared to Tewkesbury, Barnet, Towton, Northampton or even Hexham it was barely more than a skirmish.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited July 2020
    class="Quote" rel="ydoethur">
    I thought that was Johnson’s idea?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-49661019

    Starmer's bridge building, so lacks the ambition of Johnson's bridges.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does it need to? And going forward, does it need to join every EU scheme under the sun?
    What if the UK vaccine currently being developed doesn’t work out ? Wouldn’t it make sense to have an insurance policy ? Or does the hatred of anything with EU in the name by the cabinet mean the UK puts all its eggs in one basket .
    You think the only way of doing that is with the EU?
    I think Tonga has an advanced programme which we could ask to piggyback.
    Since you're mocking Tonga can you point me in the direction of the advanced programmes of research the EU has into a vaccine? How do they compare with the Oxford/Astrazenica research?
    Mocking Tonga? Your kidding, right? I think we should jump in with both feet to whatever they are doing.

    Why wouldn't I? Tonga and the EU are pretty similar in all sorts of ways.
    I think we should keep open eyes to what everyone's doing but I'm not especially familiar with either Tonga's scheme of research or the EU's.

    I'm aware of trials ongoing in the UK, USA, Brazil, South Africa, China and elsewhere - I'm curious about these EU trials to which you refer can you point me in their direction please I'd like to read up on them?
    Here you go, one of the main candidates is this one:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_1034
    https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/pfizer-biontech-vaccine-data/

    (although I think the EU's new announcement is more about buying power than research).
    That was my impression too. Their previous attempts seemed very sluggish though, which isn't too surprising given the level of bureaucracy it must involve.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does it need to? And going forward, does it need to join every EU scheme under the sun?
    What if the UK vaccine currently being developed doesn’t work out ? Wouldn’t it make sense to have an insurance policy ? Or does the hatred of anything with EU in the name by the cabinet mean the UK puts all its eggs in one basket .
    You think the only way of doing that is with the EU?
    I think Tonga has an advanced programme which we could ask to piggyback.
    Since you're mocking Tonga can you point me in the direction of the advanced programmes of research the EU has into a vaccine? How do they compare with the Oxford/Astrazenica research?
    Mocking Tonga? Your kidding, right? I think we should jump in with both feet to whatever they are doing.

    Why wouldn't I? Tonga and the EU are pretty similar in all sorts of ways.
    I think we should keep open eyes to what everyone's doing but I'm not especially familiar with either Tonga's scheme of research or the EU's.

    I'm aware of trials ongoing in the UK, USA, Brazil, South Africa, China and elsewhere - I'm curious about these EU trials to which you refer can you point me in their direction please I'd like to read up on them?
    Here you go, one of the main candidates is this one:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_1034
    https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/pfizer-biontech-vaccine-data/

    (although I think the EU's new announcement is more about buying power than research).
    Of course it is.
    Gov't just needs to spin it as cherry picking from the EU for domestic purposes if questioned about it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for BoJo's nomenclature? Nor really fussed tbh.

    I think OnlyLivingBoy goes too far, but I do agree that that "Boris" is problematic, even if only mildly. From an electoral advantage point of view, I mean. Fair playing field and all that. So it`s Johnson and Starmer for me. Always has been.
    I don't see why using a forename is problematic at all.

    "Call me Tony" started this before Boris was an MP and when I was a child. Then we had "Dave" decades later.

    I couldn't give less of a s**t if people say Boris or Johnson and the more people whinge about it the more tempted I am to just write Boris.
    You are a big big supporter of his. So "Boris" makes sense for you. You want to push his brand. You want him to prosper.

    Any "Johnson" from you - which we do sometimes get - is a bonus and much appreciated.
    But I don't call him Boris to be partisan, I do it because its his name.

    Just like Tony or Gordon before him.
    If you had called Blair "Charles" or "Anthony" - also one of his names - then that would have been weird.

    Johnson reportedly goes by the name Al in his private life, so using that makes some sense. Although "Boris" is one of his names he uses it as a brand identity. Perhaps Blair was the same and doesn't use "Tony" in his private life.

    I think the aspect of it being a public persona, rather than a more natural intimacy, is worthy of comment (but not whinging, oh no, never that).
    That's ridiculous. I couldn't care what name he uses privately, he's not Al to me. Boris is his name, just like Tony Blair's public name was Tony even if it wasn't his first name. Gordon Brown's public name was Gordon even if it wasn't his first name.

    I don't think public personas for public people is worthy of comment, public people should be entitled to private lives just like everyone else.

    Superman gets in the news for his actions under that name, even if his friends in private life call him Clark in his private life, or his parents called him Kal-El.
    That's an interesting (!) persona that pops into your mind when you think of Boris Johnson. Superman.

    What's going on there?
    I had a feeling you'd respond to that. :grin:

    I didn't compare Boris to Clark Kent - and if I really wanted to compliment him I'd compare him to Bruce Wayne instead. But I don't, not like that.
    OK. If you were just trying to trigger me it's mission accomplished.

    I wouldn't put it past you to subliminally think Superman - tight yellow top, red trunks and all - when you see him but I will accept for now that this is not the case.

    Disappointed with that "Boris" there.
    In any case, it was John Major who first channelled Superman. Or am I too influenced by Steve Bell's cartoons?

    Edit: Idiot that I am. It was Harold Macmillan who was first.
    Ah, the "shirt tucked into underpants" meme. Yes, that was enormously damaging for Major. Johnson takes no chances on that score. Shirt rarely tucked into anything.
    Anyone who does press-ups wearing a tie is asking for trouble!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Press up conference surely? The challenge has been issued.
    Genuine lol!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Big week for me.

    First PB confirms to me what I had suspected, that "gaslighting" is a meaningless term as applied to political discourse albeit it has a place in the far reaches of DSM V.

    And secondly, I have found out who Darren Grimes is.

    The weekend awaits...

    I haven't seen the film Gaslight, but I believe the plot centres around a man deliberately convincing a woman she is insane. My understanding of the term now is that someone says they are experiencing racism and someone else says they are not, trying to make the racism sufferer think that they are crazy. I can see why the term gaslight was chosen, but unless the gaslighter has deliberately perpetrated the racism themselves, a vital component is surely missing. They are not gaslighting; they're disagreeing.
    Exactly.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    Sure - there's a chance the eventual vaccine could be US IP though - best to be with the EU if that's the case.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    LadyG said:

    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma

    The UK does have those advantages but it's not particularly strong in mass-market production of vaccines, which is likely to be the crucial limiting factor once we have one or more approved vaccines.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    CORRECTION: the UK is not in the EU.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Boris doing a press conference at 5.00pm tonight

    Tomorrow is the 4th July, Independence Day! Tomorrow the pubs are open. Have a drink on me. Full year boots!
    Tomorrow is Derby Day.
    True, how are racecourses making any money without spectators ?
    Some like Epsom will get a large TV audience on such a day.
    However a rainy day at Catterick less so.
    Don’t they get a cut from the bookies? Or is that only the on-course ones?
    To be honest ydoethur I do not know.
    York racecourse has a massive hospitality sector , when not in racing use .
    Weddings , functions etc.
    Also live music events.
    On a big race day at York, they get 30 thousand or more on the course , drinking and eating as well as on course betting.
    So most of their income seems to have gone, until it fully resumes.
    York only has flat racing , May until October.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    TOPPING said:

    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    CORRECTION: the UK is not in the EU.
    Actually, we are, de facto if not de jure, until the end of the year
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    LadyG said:

    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma

    The UK does have those advantages but it's not particularly strong in mass-market production of vaccines, which is likely to be the crucial limiting factor once we have one or more approved vaccines.
    The times are changing though, Richard. Both Astra and GSK are investing in vaccine production, GSK partnered with Sanofi recently to that end.

    As has been pointed out, this is the EU asking us to help with the heavy lifting of getting Europe vaccinated, not the other way around. Let's not pretend they are extending the hand of friendship here so we can benefit from their one vaccine candidate which has yet to go into phase one trials. They need us to be in this scheme.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for BoJo's nomenclature? Nor really fussed tbh.

    I think OnlyLivingBoy goes too far, but I do agree that that "Boris" is problematic, even if only mildly. From an electoral advantage point of view, I mean. Fair playing field and all that. So it`s Johnson and Starmer for me. Always has been.
    I don't see why using a forename is problematic at all.

    "Call me Tony" started this before Boris was an MP and when I was a child. Then we had "Dave" decades later.

    I couldn't give less of a s**t if people say Boris or Johnson and the more people whinge about it the more tempted I am to just write Boris.
    You are a big big supporter of his. So "Boris" makes sense for you. You want to push his brand. You want him to prosper.

    Any "Johnson" from you - which we do sometimes get - is a bonus and much appreciated.
    But I don't call him Boris to be partisan, I do it because its his name.

    Just like Tony or Gordon before him.
    If you had called Blair "Charles" or "Anthony" - also one of his names - then that would have been weird.

    Johnson reportedly goes by the name Al in his private life, so using that makes some sense. Although "Boris" is one of his names he uses it as a brand identity. Perhaps Blair was the same and doesn't use "Tony" in his private life.

    I think the aspect of it being a public persona, rather than a more natural intimacy, is worthy of comment (but not whinging, oh no, never that).
    That's ridiculous. I couldn't care what name he uses privately, he's not Al to me. Boris is his name, just like Tony Blair's public name was Tony even if it wasn't his first name. Gordon Brown's public name was Gordon even if it wasn't his first name.

    I don't think public personas for public people is worthy of comment, public people should be entitled to private lives just like everyone else.

    Superman gets in the news for his actions under that name, even if his friends in private life call him Clark in his private life, or his parents called him Kal-El.
    That's an interesting (!) persona that pops into your mind when you think of Boris Johnson. Superman.

    What's going on there?
    I had a feeling you'd respond to that. :grin:

    I didn't compare Boris to Clark Kent - and if I really wanted to compliment him I'd compare him to Bruce Wayne instead. But I don't, not like that.
    OK. If you were just trying to trigger me it's mission accomplished.

    I wouldn't put it past you to subliminally think Superman - tight yellow top, red trunks and all - when you see him but I will accept for now that this is not the case.

    Disappointed with that "Boris" there.
    Well you're the one who keeps going on about how "Boris" is a persona, an act.

    So on the one hand we have a hero who makes the world a better place, but hides it behind a mild mannered persona and acting as a journalist . . . and on the other hand we have the Man of Steel.
    Yes, very good.

    But re your point, no, a BRAND. And I do not "go on about it". I gave it an airing today for the 1st time in ages. Hopefully, one or two "Boris" posters who are not fans of his will at least think about maybe switching to "Johnson".

    This is all I ask or could ever hope for.
    lol. It's never going to happen. For a start Boris or Bojo or whatever are shorter and therefore easier to type.

    Moreover, if you say "Johnson" it's not instantly obvious who you mean, BECAUSE so many people refer to him, and know him, as "Boris".

    You do love your little campaigns, but this is one that won't work
    No, it is about the brand. None of that changes the point at issue. And you say this - about "little campaigns" - but how many movements that end up delivering sweeping societal change start just like this with one or two people on the internet? (in this case me and OLB)

    Answer. Not many. But it does happen. Mighty oaks from. A journey of a thousand starts with. All those cliches. Cliches for a reason. It does happen. Just need a hashtag.

    #killboris
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    Sure - there's a chance the eventual vaccine could be US IP though - best to be with the EU if that's the case.
    It's also more than possible that there are multiple vaccines, each with different trade offs.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    TOPPING said:

    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    CORRECTION: the UK is not in the EU.
    Had we remained, we would have held all the cards!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    .
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma

    The UK does have those advantages but it's not particularly strong in mass-market production of vaccines, which is likely to be the crucial limiting factor once we have one or more approved vaccines.
    The times are changing though, Richard. Both Astra and GSK are investing in vaccine production, GSK partnered with Sanofi recently to that end.

    As has been pointed out, this is the EU asking us to help with the heavy lifting of getting Europe vaccinated, not the other way around. Let's not pretend they are extending the hand of friendship here so we can benefit from their one vaccine candidate which has yet to go into phase one trials. They need us to be in this scheme.
    Cherrypicking? from the EU? Now I've seen everything.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for BoJo's nomenclature? Nor really fussed tbh.

    I think OnlyLivingBoy goes too far, but I do agree that that "Boris" is problematic, even if only mildly. From an electoral advantage point of view, I mean. Fair playing field and all that. So it`s Johnson and Starmer for me. Always has been.
    I don't see why using a forename is problematic at all.

    "Call me Tony" started this before Boris was an MP and when I was a child. Then we had "Dave" decades later.

    I couldn't give less of a s**t if people say Boris or Johnson and the more people whinge about it the more tempted I am to just write Boris.
    You are a big big supporter of his. So "Boris" makes sense for you. You want to push his brand. You want him to prosper.

    Any "Johnson" from you - which we do sometimes get - is a bonus and much appreciated.
    But I don't call him Boris to be partisan, I do it because its his name.

    Just like Tony or Gordon before him.
    If you had called Blair "Charles" or "Anthony" - also one of his names - then that would have been weird.

    Johnson reportedly goes by the name Al in his private life, so using that makes some sense. Although "Boris" is one of his names he uses it as a brand identity. Perhaps Blair was the same and doesn't use "Tony" in his private life.

    I think the aspect of it being a public persona, rather than a more natural intimacy, is worthy of comment (but not whinging, oh no, never that).
    That's ridiculous. I couldn't care what name he uses privately, he's not Al to me. Boris is his name, just like Tony Blair's public name was Tony even if it wasn't his first name. Gordon Brown's public name was Gordon even if it wasn't his first name.

    I don't think public personas for public people is worthy of comment, public people should be entitled to private lives just like everyone else.

    Superman gets in the news for his actions under that name, even if his friends in private life call him Clark in his private life, or his parents called him Kal-El.
    That's an interesting (!) persona that pops into your mind when you think of Boris Johnson. Superman.

    What's going on there?
    I had a feeling you'd respond to that. :grin:

    I didn't compare Boris to Clark Kent - and if I really wanted to compliment him I'd compare him to Bruce Wayne instead. But I don't, not like that.
    OK. If you were just trying to trigger me it's mission accomplished.

    I wouldn't put it past you to subliminally think Superman - tight yellow top, red trunks and all - when you see him but I will accept for now that this is not the case.

    Disappointed with that "Boris" there.
    Well you're the one who keeps going on about how "Boris" is a persona, an act.

    So on the one hand we have a hero who makes the world a better place, but hides it behind a mild mannered persona and acting as a journalist . . . and on the other hand we have the Man of Steel.
    Yes, very good.

    But re your point, no, a BRAND. And I do not "go on about it". I gave it an airing today for the 1st time in ages. Hopefully, one or two "Boris" posters who are not fans of his will at least think about maybe switching to "Johnson".

    This is all I ask or could ever hope for.
    lol. It's never going to happen. For a start Boris or Bojo or whatever are shorter and therefore easier to type.

    Moreover, if you say "Johnson" it's not instantly obvious who you mean, BECAUSE so many people refer to him, and know him, as "Boris".

    You do love your little campaigns, but this is one that won't work
    No, it is about the brand. None of that changes the point at issue. And you say that - about "little campaigns" - but how many movements that end up delivering sweeping societal change start just like this with one person on the internet?

    Not many.

    But it does happen. Mighty oaks from. A journey of a thousand starts with. All those cliches. Cliches for a reason. It does happen. Just need a hashtag.

    #killboris
    Ill-advised, methinks
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    UK data out - 544 cases

    England Regional Case Data (Pillar 1 & 2)

    As ever last 3-5 days will be revised - last 5 days included for completeness

    image
    image
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    LadyG said:

    TOPPING said:

    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    CORRECTION: the UK is not in the EU.
    Actually, we are, de facto if not de jure, until the end of the year
    Not according to Mr "Get Brexit Done" Johnson.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Pulpstar said:

    If it's all as reported, the BBC should apologise, clarify and reimburse Grimes' costs immediately. (That initial letter won't have been for free !).
    I think he wins the libel action if they don't.

    Not an expert on libel law but suspect it would be difficult to pin the fact of an interviewee making a false statement on live radio to the broadcaster and that they would need to endorse the statement in some way, eg by repeating the comments on their website.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    Sure - there's a chance the eventual vaccine could be US IP though - best to be with the EU if that's the case.
    It's also more than possible that there are multiple vaccines, each with different trade offs.
    Definitely. The Chinese are already vaccinating their army with one, for example.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    England cases by lower level authority -

    image
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,466
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    What if he wrote the seminal work on Henry VII. Would you read it?
    1. I'd be extremely surprised.
    2. I'd wait for @ydoethur to review it.
    You’d be waiting quite a while. I’m more into Henry VI, Edward IV and Richard III. Henry VII was important, but he’s not only rather dull by comparison (which was unsurprisingly reasonably popular at least for time after a child killing wife swindling niece groping land grasping psychopath) he’s also very difficult to get under the skin of. No biographer of him from Bacon onwards has ever shown any real sign of understanding him.
    Huh? Henry VII was of course the one who killed the princes.
    Richard III? Or some other princes?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    England cases by lower level authority -

    image

    These are great btw, do you think you could upload them as PNGs as the quality would be much better.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Can I recommend, Friday 3rd July 2020, 17.00 on BBC1 Car Crash TV.
    Unmissable!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma

    The UK does have those advantages but it's not particularly strong in mass-market production of vaccines, which is likely to be the crucial limiting factor once we have one or more approved vaccines.
    The times are changing though, Richard. Both Astra and GSK are investing in vaccine production, GSK partnered with Sanofi recently to that end.

    As has been pointed out, this is the EU asking us to help with the heavy lifting of getting Europe vaccinated, not the other way around. Let's not pretend they are extending the hand of friendship here so we can benefit from their one vaccine candidate which has yet to go into phase one trials. They need us to be in this scheme.
    Are the facilities in the UK? Or just the parent companies?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    LadyG said:

    TOPPING said:

    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    CORRECTION: the UK is not in the EU.
    Actually, we are, de facto if not de jure, until the end of the year
    Ask Boris.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2020
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma

    The UK does have those advantages but it's not particularly strong in mass-market production of vaccines, which is likely to be the crucial limiting factor once we have one or more approved vaccines.
    The times are changing though, Richard. Both Astra and GSK are investing in vaccine production, GSK partnered with Sanofi recently to that end.

    As has been pointed out, this is the EU asking us to help with the heavy lifting of getting Europe vaccinated, not the other way around. Let's not pretend they are extending the hand of friendship here so we can benefit from their one vaccine candidate which has yet to go into phase one trials. They need us to be in this scheme.
    EU countries already have an agreement with AstraZeneca on the Oxford vaccine:

    https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2020/astrazeneca-to-supply-europe-with-up-to-400-million-doses-of-oxford-universitys-vaccine-at-no-profit.html

    AZ are going to be manufacturing it in various countries (either themselves or with partners) including a large chunk of the production in the EU.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    What if he wrote the seminal work on Henry VII. Would you read it?
    1. I'd be extremely surprised.
    2. I'd wait for @ydoethur to review it.
    You’d be waiting quite a while. I’m more into Henry VI, Edward IV and Richard III. Henry VII was important, but he’s not only rather dull by comparison (which was unsurprisingly reasonably popular at least for time after a child killing wife swindling niece groping land grasping psychopath) he’s also very difficult to get under the skin of. No biographer of him from Bacon onwards has ever shown any real sign of understanding him.
    Huh? Henry VII was of course the one who killed the princes.
    Richard III? Or some other princes?
    "The" princes.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited July 2020
    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If it's all as reported, the BBC should apologise, clarify and reimburse Grimes' costs immediately. (That initial letter won't have been for free !).
    I think he wins the libel action if they don't.

    Not an expert on libel law but suspect it would be difficult to pin the fact of an interviewee making a false statement on live radio to the broadcaster and that they would need to endorse the statement in some way, eg by repeating the comments on their website.
    The BBC has of course the ability to find old promotional clips that may throw some clarity on the allegation

    https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1279075465018343424

    As I said before I suspect there is enough information online to (at the very least) provide some confirmation of the comment,.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    MaxPB said:

    England cases by lower level authority -

    deleted

    These are great btw, do you think you could upload them as PNGs as the quality would be much better.
    I do - increased the resolution at the cost of size...

    image
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Boris and the Boffins are up.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited July 2020

    TOPPING said:

    Big week for me.

    First PB confirms to me what I had suspected, that "gaslighting" is a meaningless term as applied to political discourse albeit it has a place in the far reaches of DSM V.

    And secondly, I have found out who Darren Grimes is.

    The weekend awaits...

    I haven't seen the film Gaslight, but I believe the plot centres around a man deliberately convincing a woman she is insane. My understanding of the term now is that someone says they are experiencing racism and someone else says they are not, trying to make the racism sufferer think that they are crazy. I can see why the term gaslight was chosen, but unless the gaslighter has deliberately perpetrated the racism themselves, a vital component is surely missing. They are not gaslighting; they're disagreeing.
    Aren't there cases of racist gaslighters telling folk who have experienced racism that they have not? Isn't that the point?

    'Thas not racist, just a bit of banter. You dusky folk need to grow a thicker skin or find a sense of humour if yer gonna fit in. Dunno what the world's cumming to..' etc etc
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited July 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    What if he wrote the seminal work on Henry VII. Would you read it?
    1. I'd be extremely surprised.
    2. I'd wait for @ydoethur to review it.
    You’d be waiting quite a while. I’m more into Henry VI, Edward IV and Richard III. Henry VII was important, but he’s not only rather dull by comparison (which was unsurprisingly reasonably popular at least for time after a child killing wife swindling niece groping land grasping psychopath) he’s also very difficult to get under the skin of. No biographer of him from Bacon onwards has ever shown any real sign of understanding him.
    His regime also, AIUI..... stand to be corrected....... brought peace and stability after a somewhat horrendous several years. And there's nothing your average peasant and merchant likes better than a chance to get on with whatever it is they do without having their sons dragged away to fight in wars the purpose of which they only dimly understand, and care even less.
    Although as, IIRC< Mr Malmesbury pointed out the other day, the bitterness engendered by those wars travels down the ages.
    No. There had been instability from 1483-1485, but that was preceded by twelve years of peace.

    Edward IV ended the Wars of the Roses at Tewkesbury with the deaths of Edward Prince of Wales and the last of the male Beauforts. His second reign was noted for its calm and prosperity.

    Yes, Richard stupidly buggered everything up through his greed and ambition but the actual fighting was pretty limited. Bosworth was the only battle, and compared to Tewkesbury, Barnet, Towton, Northampton or even Hexham it was barely more than a skirmish.
    I'm obliged. Actually, as far as your average etc was concerned, starting the fighting up again would have been a real no-no.
    In spite of moving to science I've always been interested in history. Currently 'doing' a history counterfactual course on line.with the WEA. Not particularly impressed with it so far, (What if William the Bastard had lost at Hastings....... personally I thought it would have been more interesting if it had been 'what if' Harold II had lost at Stamford Bridge) but next week we're doing 'what if the Pope had granted Henry VIII an annulment'. TBH, IMHO although we might have saved some of England and Wales historic art, it wouldn't have made all that difference.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    TOPPING said:

    Big week for me.

    First PB confirms to me what I had suspected, that "gaslighting" is a meaningless term as applied to political discourse albeit it has a place in the far reaches of DSM V.

    And secondly, I have found out who Darren Grimes is.

    The weekend awaits...

    The mother of my eldest angrily accused me of "gaslighting" her. Whilst she was trying (and failing) to financially blackmail me. Since then I completely ignore the word as meaningless guff.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited July 2020
    There’s going to be a very interesting balance to be struck between governments, regulatory authorities, IP owners and manufacturers, when it comes to vaccines.

    In the end, there will probably be one or two vaccines approved, and every available production facility on the planet churning them out 24/7 as everyone else argues about the bill.

    Not sure anyone’s going to trust the Chinese, who are testing at large scale on their own military.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    RobD said:

    Boris and the Boffins are up.

    Buffoon and the Boffins.
    Good band name.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    As for BoJo's nomenclature? Nor really fussed tbh.

    I think OnlyLivingBoy goes too far, but I do agree that that "Boris" is problematic, even if only mildly. From an electoral advantage point of view, I mean. Fair playing field and all that. So it`s Johnson and Starmer for me. Always has been.
    I don't see why using a forename is problematic at all.

    "Call me Tony" started this before Boris was an MP and when I was a child. Then we had "Dave" decades later.

    I couldn't give less of a s**t if people say Boris or Johnson and the more people whinge about it the more tempted I am to just write Boris.
    You are a big big supporter of his. So "Boris" makes sense for you. You want to push his brand. You want him to prosper.

    Any "Johnson" from you - which we do sometimes get - is a bonus and much appreciated.
    But I don't call him Boris to be partisan, I do it because its his name.

    Just like Tony or Gordon before him.
    If you had called Blair "Charles" or "Anthony" - also one of his names - then that would have been weird.

    Johnson reportedly goes by the name Al in his private life, so using that makes some sense. Although "Boris" is one of his names he uses it as a brand identity. Perhaps Blair was the same and doesn't use "Tony" in his private life.

    I think the aspect of it being a public persona, rather than a more natural intimacy, is worthy of comment (but not whinging, oh no, never that).
    That's ridiculous. I couldn't care what name he uses privately, he's not Al to me. Boris is his name, just like Tony Blair's public name was Tony even if it wasn't his first name. Gordon Brown's public name was Gordon even if it wasn't his first name.

    I don't think public personas for public people is worthy of comment, public people should be entitled to private lives just like everyone else.

    Superman gets in the news for his actions under that name, even if his friends in private life call him Clark in his private life, or his parents called him Kal-El.
    That's an interesting (!) persona that pops into your mind when you think of Boris Johnson. Superman.

    What's going on there?
    I had a feeling you'd respond to that. :grin:

    I didn't compare Boris to Clark Kent - and if I really wanted to compliment him I'd compare him to Bruce Wayne instead. But I don't, not like that.
    OK. If you were just trying to trigger me it's mission accomplished.

    I wouldn't put it past you to subliminally think Superman - tight yellow top, red trunks and all - when you see him but I will accept for now that this is not the case.

    Disappointed with that "Boris" there.
    Well you're the one who keeps going on about how "Boris" is a persona, an act.

    So on the one hand we have a hero who makes the world a better place, but hides it behind a mild mannered persona and acting as a journalist . . . and on the other hand we have the Man of Steel.
    Yes, very good.

    But re your point, no, a BRAND. And I do not "go on about it". I gave it an airing today for the 1st time in ages. Hopefully, one or two "Boris" posters who are not fans of his will at least think about maybe switching to "Johnson".

    This is all I ask or could ever hope for.
    lol. It's never going to happen. For a start Boris or Bojo or whatever are shorter and therefore easier to type.

    Moreover, if you say "Johnson" it's not instantly obvious who you mean, BECAUSE so many people refer to him, and know him, as "Boris".

    You do love your little campaigns, but this is one that won't work
    No, it is about the brand. None of that changes the point at issue. And you say that - about "little campaigns" - but how many movements that end up delivering sweeping societal change start just like this with one person on the internet?

    Not many.

    But it does happen. Mighty oaks from. A journey of a thousand starts with. All those cliches. Cliches for a reason. It does happen. Just need a hashtag.

    #killboris
    Ill-advised, methinks
    Alright. Suppose that could be deliberately misconstrued by mischief makers. Let me work on it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    RobD said:

    Boris and the Boffins are up.

    Too much information...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited July 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    We have automatic right to these programmes until the end of the year. It's a case of whether we join in, where according to the government sources quoted by the article the trade-off is between Brexit dogma* and a more effective vaccine programme in the UK.

    * I am interpreting "political desire to sever ties with Brussels" as Brexit dogma.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    We have automatic right to these programmes until the end of the year. It's a case of whether we join in, where according to the government sources quoted by the article the trade-off is between Brexit dogma and a more effective vaccine programme in the UK.
    Do we? The UK isn't an EU member anymore.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So was it right to sack Starkey or does this come under "cancel culture"? Where do you draw the line?

    For me, it's a slam dunk case of let's have no more of him on TV pontificating about current affairs. And if this is what "cancel culture" means, it's something I'm on board with.
    That was always the slightly weird thing about Starkey, how in demand he was by QT and the like. I suppose the 'distinguished historian' fig leaf was handy though what they really wanted was the Faragist pus he enjoyed squirting over the airwaves.
    That was my impression. Reactionary shock jock of the revolving bow tie sort employed to say fruity things.

    Fair enough, why not. But he is a prime example of one of my most unfavourite types of bloke - the overbearing pontificating sort who feels entitled to be heard at great length on anything and everything. Throw in the politics and the mannered poshness and you've pretty much got a package that I can live without very easily indeed.

    That said, I have been able to enjoy some of the historical documentaries he has done.
    Speaking as a PBer with at least six of David Starkey's DVDs on the shelf behind me, and maybe a couple more in the other room, I too enjoyed his documentaries and avoided his musings on other subjects.
    Yep. That's me too. And now we will not have to avoid his off piste musings.

    It's cancel culture at it's very best.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Mind you, I expect it should be fairly easy to get a 6am booking and you'd probably have the pub to yourself.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Just noticed this. Inter aliis, more on Mr Johnson and Superman (this time his own analogy for Brexitania).

    https://www.newstatesman.com/2020/07/fatal-delusions-boris-johnson
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    "The question isn't whether Trump will find a way to beat Biden, it's whether Biden will find a way to lose to Trump."

    Exactly. In 20116, Hillary Clinton snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. NOT just because of one dumb remark ("deplorables") but instead for a whole series of mistakes, miscalculations, etc. etc. Such as NEVER campaigning in Wisconsin, picking Tim Kaine as running mate (he did nothing for her except in VA which she'd have won without him on the ticket), and ignoring blue-collar White voters in pursuit of boosting Black voter turnout.

    Biden will make mistakes & of course gaffes. BUT not the kind of fundamental strategic errors that sunk Hillary.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited July 2020

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does it need to? And going forward, does it need to join every EU scheme under the sun?
    What if the UK vaccine currently being developed doesn’t work out ? Wouldn’t it make sense to have an insurance policy ? Or does the hatred of anything with EU in the name by the cabinet mean the UK puts all its eggs in one basket .
    You think the only way of doing that is with the EU?
    I think Tonga has an advanced programme which we could ask to piggyback.
    Since you're mocking Tonga can you point me in the direction of the advanced programmes of research the EU has into a vaccine? How do they compare with the Oxford/Astrazenica research?
    Can you point me to figures comparing UK vaccine manufacturing capacity with that based in the EU ? (I suspect not.)
    Production capacity is as important, if not more so, in delivering vaccines on a mass scale as the vaccine development itself.

    As far as European vaccine efforts are concerned, there are a number.

    Here's a recent list of the most advanced/promising vaccine programs:
    https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/06/29/coronavirus-vaccine-update-june-29
    I've listed the European based involvement below:
    Reithera (Italy)

    Merck (US) /Themis (Austria)

    Pfizer (US)/Biontech (Germany)

    CureVac (Germany)

    Sanofi (France)/Translate (US)

    Sanofi (France)/ GSK (UK)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited July 2020
    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    We have automatic right to these programmes until the end of the year. It's a case of whether we join in, where according to the government sources quoted by the article the trade-off is between Brexit dogma* and a more effective vaccine programme in the UK.

    * I am interpreting "political desire to sever ties with Brussels" as Brexit dogma.
    If Brexit dogma wins over an effective vaccine programme, then PM Johnson runs the risk of going down as far more inept, and worthy of excoriation, than Lord North, Cameron or May.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    We have automatic right to these programmes until the end of the year. It's a case of whether we join in, where according to the government sources quoted by the article the trade-off is between Brexit dogma* and a more effective vaccine programme in the UK.

    * I am interpreting "political desire to sever ties with Brussels" as Brexit dogma.
    Of course, for hardcore Remainers it’s “Brexit dogma vs saving lives”. For the government, it’s a balance of ability to acquire IP and manufacturing facility capacity, against the chance that someone else refuses to deal with the UK a as a point of dogmatic principle.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    I always associated the term "gaslighting" to specifically refer to cases of domestic abuse.
    It most certainly does exist in that context and is a useful and widespread term for some awful behaviours.
    I have only come across it today in other situations. Not sure it serves any great purpose in these if it merely means "not in agreement with me."
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    eek said:

    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If it's all as reported, the BBC should apologise, clarify and reimburse Grimes' costs immediately. (That initial letter won't have been for free !).
    I think he wins the libel action if they don't.

    Not an expert on libel law but suspect it would be difficult to pin the fact of an interviewee making a false statement on live radio to the broadcaster and that they would need to endorse the statement in some way, eg by repeating the comments on their website.
    The BBC has of course the ability to find old promotional clips that may throw some clarity on the allegation

    https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1279075465018343424

    As I said before I suspect there is enough information online to (at the very least) provide some confirmation of the comment,.
    Also note where the solicitor's letter quotes directly and where it refers indirectly to speech made. I think it's the indirect part that is key here.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Mind you, I expect it should be fairly easy to get a 6am booking and you'd probably have the pub to yourself.

    I remember several years ago I arranged to meet a client for a breakfast meeting in the City and he took me to a pub in Smithfields and there we sat at 7.30am supping pints...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited July 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    "London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc's bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels..."

    They are in fact weighing up whether even the most rabid Brexiteer might prioritise saving lives over enforcing their dogma.



    Scott_xP said:
    I can't believe they're offering us the chance to quite honestly. It'd be mad not to take them up on it.
    The EU is probably not without self-interest here.

    The UK has one of the most advanced pharmaceutical industries in the EU, and some of the best research and universities.

    Getting the UK on board means more financial muscle, and also access to UK pharma
    Sure - there's a chance the eventual vaccine could be US IP though - best to be with the EU if that's the case.
    It's also more than possible that there are multiple vaccines, each with different trade offs.
    That will almost certainly be the case.
    And until they've been in widespread use, our knowledge of the trade-offs will be a little hazy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    "The question isn't whether Trump will find a way to beat Biden, it's whether Biden will find a way to lose to Trump."

    Exactly. In 20116, Hillary Clinton snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. NOT just because of one dumb remark ("deplorables") but instead for a whole series of mistakes, miscalculations, etc. etc. Such as NEVER campaigning in Wisconsin, picking Tim Kaine as running mate (he did nothing for her except in VA which she'd have won without him on the ticket), and ignoring blue-collar White voters in pursuit of boosting Black voter turnout.

    Biden will make mistakes & of course gaffes. BUT not the kind of fundamental strategic errors that sunk Hillary.

    Clinton has a tin ear when it comes to elective politics - unlike Bill. To you list I would add blowing off meetings with core Democrat groups like the Teachers Unions, taking a holiday in the Hamptons in the middle of the Campaign and the paid closed door events at venues such as Goldman Sachs.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Yay! FCO says I can go to Singapore!

    Singapore says no.

    As do many of the countries on the list.....

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-countries-and-territories-exempt-from-advice-against-all-but-essential-international-travel
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    "The question isn't whether Trump will find a way to beat Biden, it's whether Biden will find a way to lose to Trump."

    Exactly. In 20116, Hillary Clinton snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. NOT just because of one dumb remark ("deplorables") but instead for a whole series of mistakes, miscalculations, etc. etc. Such as NEVER campaigning in Wisconsin, picking Tim Kaine as running mate (he did nothing for her except in VA which she'd have won without him on the ticket), and ignoring blue-collar White voters in pursuit of boosting Black voter turnout.

    Biden will make mistakes & of course gaffes. BUT not the kind of fundamental strategic errors that sunk Hillary.

    Clinton has a tin ear when it comes to elective politics - unlike Bill. To you list I would add blowing off meetings with core Democrat groups like the Teachers Unions, taking a holiday in the Hamptons in the middle of the Campaign and the paid closed door events at venues such as Goldman Sachs.
    Bill knows quite a lot about blowing off.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited July 2020
    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If it's all as reported, the BBC should apologise, clarify and reimburse Grimes' costs immediately. (That initial letter won't have been for free !).
    I think he wins the libel action if they don't.

    Not an expert on libel law but suspect it would be difficult to pin the fact of an interviewee making a false statement on live radio to the broadcaster and that they would need to endorse the statement in some way, eg by repeating the comments on their website.
    The BBC has of course the ability to find old promotional clips that may throw some clarity on the allegation

    https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1279075465018343424

    As I said before I suspect there is enough information online to (at the very least) provide some confirmation of the comment,.
    Also note where the solicitor's letter quotes directly and where it refers indirectly to speech made. I think it's the indirect part that is key here.
    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If it's all as reported, the BBC should apologise, clarify and reimburse Grimes' costs immediately. (That initial letter won't have been for free !).
    I think he wins the libel action if they don't.

    Not an expert on libel law but suspect it would be difficult to pin the fact of an interviewee making a false statement on live radio to the broadcaster and that they would need to endorse the statement in some way, eg by repeating the comments on their website.
    The BBC has of course the ability to find old promotional clips that may throw some clarity on the allegation

    https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1279075465018343424

    As I said before I suspect there is enough information online to (at the very least) provide some confirmation of the comment,.
    Also note where the solicitor's letter quotes directly and where it refers indirectly to speech made. I think it's the indirect part that is key here.
    That's the video I saw. And Grimes specifically does NOT say what the BBC claims

    The BBC says Grimes describes his site as "a safe space for racist or homophobic views"

    Grimes there says: "do you hide your political views FOR FEAR of being called racist" etc etc

    FOR FEAR is the crucial distinction. It is absolutely disingenuous to ignore this
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If it's all as reported, the BBC should apologise, clarify and reimburse Grimes' costs immediately. (That initial letter won't have been for free !).
    I think he wins the libel action if they don't.

    Not an expert on libel law but suspect it would be difficult to pin the fact of an interviewee making a false statement on live radio to the broadcaster and that they would need to endorse the statement in some way, eg by repeating the comments on their website.
    The BBC has of course the ability to find old promotional clips that may throw some clarity on the allegation

    https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1279075465018343424

    As I said before I suspect there is enough information online to (at the very least) provide some confirmation of the comment,.
    Also note where the solicitor's letter quotes directly and where it refers indirectly to speech made. I think it's the indirect part that is key here.
    As the solicitor is clearly not doing it on a contingency basis, I suspect all he sees is someone willing to give his firm a large sum of money for a pointless case (and Grimes appears to have the ability to get people to give him money to pass on to said law firm).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    TOPPING said:

    Mind you, I expect it should be fairly easy to get a 6am booking and you'd probably have the pub to yourself.

    I remember several years ago I arranged to meet a client for a breakfast meeting in the City and he took me to a pub in Smithfields and there we sat at 7.30am supping pints...
    The Smithfield pubs were always fun - the all night clubbers mixing with the porters and the drink-my-breakfast crowd.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    Maybe the weather this weekend will dampen enthusiasm to go to the pub

    https://twitter.com/metoffice/status/1279022078809825282?s=09

    Strong winds already here in south Devon. Sit in a beer garden - and you are likely to get hit around the head with flying furniture.....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Starkey enjoys - or at least used to enjoy - being controversial and colorful, both for internal amusement AND for external publicity. Which is fine 99% of the time BUT there's that 1% when it is NOT.

    In this case, he opened his mouth and ran right into a buzz-saw. Should have known better. Apparently didn't notice some rather striking cases here in US recently where various celebrities, business leaders, etc. did the same thing, and found themselves holding their fool heads in a basket.

    My guess is that, if DS found himself in the court of Henry VIII, he'd have lasted about a week. One funny remark to many and . . . his head would be grinning from atop the Tower Gate.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    dixiedean said:

    I always associated the term "gaslighting" to specifically refer to cases of domestic abuse.
    It most certainly does exist in that context and is a useful and widespread term for some awful behaviours.
    I have only come across it today in other situations. Not sure it serves any great purpose in these if it merely means "not in agreement with me."

    I think it's heavily overused in reference to politics, to the point where it's not really clear if it has a meaning any more. To the extent that it does mean something beyond just "saying something I disagree with", I think it's basically when somebody believes they see consent being manufactured (in the sense of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent ) for something that to them is clearly not true.

    That's still not a great fit for the original term, in which the point was to make the victim question their sanity, but language evolves.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Yay! FCO says I can go to Singapore!

    Singapore says no.

    As do many of the countries on the list.....

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-countries-and-territories-exempt-from-advice-against-all-but-essential-international-travel

    No doubt when you travel to anywhere you need to understand that countries health requirements but of course returning from them is free of restriction if you live in England
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does it need to? And going forward, does it need to join every EU scheme under the sun?
    What if the UK vaccine currently being developed doesn’t work out ? Wouldn’t it make sense to have an insurance policy ? Or does the hatred of anything with EU in the name by the cabinet mean the UK puts all its eggs in one basket .
    You think the only way of doing that is with the EU?
    I think Tonga has an advanced programme which we could ask to piggyback.
    Since you're mocking Tonga can you point me in the direction of the advanced programmes of research the EU has into a vaccine? How do they compare with the Oxford/Astrazenica research?
    Can you point me to figures comparing UK vaccine manufacturing capacity with that based in the EU ? (I suspect not.)
    Production capacity is as important, if not more so, in delivering vaccines on a mass scale as the vaccine development itself.

    As far as European vaccine efforts are concerned, there are a number.

    Here's a recent list of the most advanced/promising vaccine programs:
    https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/06/29/coronavirus-vaccine-update-june-29
    I've listed the European based involvement below:
    Reithera (Italy)

    Merck (US) /Themis (Austria)

    Pfizer (US)/Biontech (Germany)

    CureVac (Germany)

    Sanofi (France)/Translate (US)

    Sanofi (France)/ GSK (UK)
    Vaccine production capability is the key point here. And - IIRC - the vast majority of vaccines are still made using hen's eggs, where small amounts are injected into eggs, where they replicate, and are then harvested.

    Now, I could be wrong, but the UK's very strict animal welfare standards mean it's unlikely that we have much capacity. Simply, our chickens (and eggs) are more expensive than those where standards are lower.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    TOPPING said:

    Mind you, I expect it should be fairly easy to get a 6am booking and you'd probably have the pub to yourself.

    I remember several years ago I arranged to meet a client for a breakfast meeting in the City and he took me to a pub in Smithfields and there we sat at 7.30am supping pints...
    Those pubs used to be key in doing the 24 hour pub crawl in the old days. Them, plus late lock-ins, and "dens" to bridge the middle of pm hole.

    Don't know why I'm telling you. Granny and eggs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Yay! FCO says I can go to Singapore!

    Singapore says no.

    As do many of the countries on the list.....

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-countries-and-territories-exempt-from-advice-against-all-but-essential-international-travel

    FCO says you can return from Singapore without quarantine. Very different, but good news for British expats stuck there or transiting from Australia.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Sandpit said:

    Yay! FCO says I can go to Singapore!

    Singapore says no.

    As do many of the countries on the list.....

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-countries-and-territories-exempt-from-advice-against-all-but-essential-international-travel

    FCO says you can return from Singapore without quarantine. Very different, but good news for British expats stuck there or transiting from Australia.
    You can't leave Australia any more, the last repatriation flight was about a month ago.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    dixiedean said:

    I always associated the term "gaslighting" to specifically refer to cases of domestic abuse.
    It most certainly does exist in that context and is a useful and widespread term for some awful behaviours.
    I have only come across it today in other situations. Not sure it serves any great purpose in these if it merely means "not in agreement with me."

    You do have to be precise with it. It loses its power otherwise.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mind you, I expect it should be fairly easy to get a 6am booking and you'd probably have the pub to yourself.

    I remember several years ago I arranged to meet a client for a breakfast meeting in the City and he took me to a pub in Smithfields and there we sat at 7.30am supping pints...
    Those pubs used to be key in doing the 24 hour pub crawl in the old days. Them, plus late lock-ins, and "dens" to bridge the middle of pm hole.

    Don't know why I'm telling you. Granny and eggs.
    Did you ever go to the "bar" under Venus Videos in Soho - opened at 3am?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Chris Whitty

    'We have to take risks at whatever we do and this seems a reasonable package of risks at this particular time at this particular pace, but none of us believe this is a risk free next step'
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
This discussion has been closed.