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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Strange Rebirth of Liberal Unionism

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited July 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Strange Rebirth of Liberal Unionism

Wikipedia has a history of the Liberal Unionist Party:. The most well-known Liberal Unionist arguably was Joseph Chamberlain, father of Neville, and for 19 days leader of the Opposition in 1906 after Balfour lost his seat in Manchester as part of the disastrous Conservative election defeat.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    First like City on goal difference.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Always nice to get a bit of historical perspective and detail, though you can understand why things get simplified in our memories. I think my mind was blown when I discovered there used to be a Democratic-Republican Party in the USA.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Go fourth
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I see that Darren Grimes was a LibDem activist and worked for Norman Lamb.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Well said Stodge and I hope you're right. Great thread.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited July 2020
    Or indeed Michael Heseltine who stood as a Liberal Unionist in his early days and arguable carried the torch through to current day.

    Attributing any sort of principles or ideology to the great self regarding pudding in Downing Street is however stretching credibility too far,
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    Always nice to get a bit of historical perspective and detail, though you can understand why things get simplified in our memories. I think my mind was blown when I discovered there used to be a Democratic-Republican Party in the USA.

    That is a good one. It also amuses me that the Grand Old Party in the USA is the newer of the two parties.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Excellent article. Thanks Stodge.

    Johnson may be a Liberal Unionist. But is his party?



  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    IanB2 said:

    Or indeed Michael Heseltine who stood as a Liberal Unionist in his early days and arguable carried the torch through to current day.

    Attributing any sort of principles or ideology to the great self regarding pudding in Downing Street is however stretching credibility too far,

    I believe Heseltine stood as a National Liberal.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    They're quite right. Why would relations with a third country matter more than those other issues? It's not a direct comparison but I sure as shit hope Boris's main priority for the coming years isn't relations with the EU.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Sounds cool to me! Good thread
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    "Rule of law in the EU" is shorthand for obeying the German constitutional court over the ECB I suspect.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    An interesting read Stodge! Question - if Johnson is a Liberal Unionist why is he doing so much to wreck the Union?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Great thread Stodge.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Winston Churchill a "Liberal Unionist"? Would have been a surprise to him AND Clemmie.

    Liberal Unionists started off a Liberals who split with their former party due over Home Rule as proposed by Liberal leader Wm E. Gladstone (who began his own political odyssey as a Tory). Joe Chamberlain was indeed a radical Liberal, but he was opposed to Home Rule (even though he acted as a go-between for Gladstone & Charles Stewart Parnell, leader of the Irish (Home Rule) Party.

    Liberal Unionist cooperated closely with Conservatives, and ended up merging into the Conservative and Unionist Party (hence the name).

    Young Winston first ran for Parliament as a Conservative (not Liberal Unionist) candidate. Then after he was elected (on 2nd attempt) he crossed the aisle an joined the (non-unionist) Liberals, over issue of Free Trade (Joe C was a protectionist) and also because it was clearly path to power.

    Churchill was a supporter of Home Rule for Ireland, but NOT independence; thus he was heavily involved in the Black & Tan War until he help negotiate the Anglo-Irish Treaty.

    When the Liberals self-destructed during & after WWI, Churchill ended up (after a brief transition) re-joining the Conservative Party - one reason why True Blue Tories never really trusted him until AFTER WW2.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Churchill abandoned the Unionists in 1904 over Chamberlains Tarrif Reform policy - and only returned to their ranks twenty years later , having left the Liberals over Asquith's decision to support Ramsay Macdonald's first Labour Government.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    Excellent article. Thanks Stodge.

    Johnson may be a Liberal Unionist. But is his party?



    Indeed. What will or has become of those brought up on 40 years of radical free market ideology? Have they gone away? Only temporarily surely.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    kle4 said:

    Always nice to get a bit of historical perspective and detail, though you can understand why things get simplified in our memories. I think my mind was blown when I discovered there used to be a Democratic-Republican Party in the USA.

    That is a good one. It also amuses me that the Grand Old Party in the USA is the newer of the two parties.
    I used to think that GOP stood for God's Own Party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    dfte said:

    Mike, I like it that you called him Johnson here, not Boris. Keep it that way - it's inconsistent to use a self-chosen first name for one politician which implies some form of endearment which is not universally felt!

    +1

    Yes. I strongly prefer Johnson. I wish more would use it. Not just here on PB but generally. Use of his 1st name (unless in irony) is inappropriate and borderline cringeful.
    No matter how many times people tell me its use demonstrates some form of endearment it never stops sounding like a pile of nonsense to me. I think it is really demeaning to suggest that it does in fact. Here, I'll give you an example of why it's nonsense - Boris is an arse, who has been sacked for lying multiple times. Oh heaven forfend, such endearment has been shown by that statement. There's no real implication from using Boris, that's something people are inferring.

    His brand is being known as Boris. Fine if people don't want to use it for that reason, or because they want to be consistent or more formal. But I've used both Boris and Johnson and Boris Johnson, and I don't accept this ludicrousness that if people generally refer to him as Boris they should not because it is somehow cuddly or friendly.
    Is there any other politician who you routinely refer to by their first name as a matter of course and with no irony?
    No, but that's a point about consistency, and that his particular brand being using his first name - it has nothing whatsoever to do with the preposterous and frankly insulting view of the public that it denotes endearment,which was my objection.

    You want to argue for consistency or formaility politicians should, as nearly all do, go by their first name (although frankly Sir Keir is not doing too badly in that respect)? Fine. But to get het up about it being endearing or cringy? Screw that, it's saying the public are idiotic monkeys swayed by using what isn't even his actual first name, despite very easy examples of criticising and insulting him whilst still using Boris.

    Criticising it on that basis is judging people and presuming what their views of him are based on absolutely nothing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    dixiedean said:

    Excellent article. Thanks Stodge.

    Johnson may be a Liberal Unionist. But is his party?



    Indeed. What will or has become of those brought up on 40 years of radical free market ideology? Have they gone away? Only temporarily surely.
    An interesting one will be the deficit and debt levels. If Tory party MPs follow the Republican model they will only care about them when the Labour (Dems) are in office.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited July 2020
    'The modern Conservative Party stands foursquare behind the Union but recognises that Union has to evolve to the demands of the 21st Century – it has come to support a degree of devolution to Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.'

    It hasn't really. The Conservative recognises the fact of devolution but if it could press a button that cancelled it without any political, electoral or legal consequences it would. This inclination is even more firmly embedded in their Scotch cousins.
  • "Rule of law in the EU" is shorthand for obeying the German constitutional court over the ECB I suspect.
    I haven't seen the actual question from the survey, but I don't think that's a fair assessment. I think it was rather about the developments in Hungary and Poland et al.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Oh god, you're one of those bellends who thinks football began in 1992.

    To be honest our problems when Klopp moves on will pale into comparison when the despotic regime in Abu Dhab/UAEi falls/oil prices consistently collapses and you get dumped like an ex with the clap and back to the third level of English football if you're lucky.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    An interesting read Stodge! Question - if Johnson is a Liberal Unionist why is he doing so much to wreck the Union?

    Because just wrecking the liberal side of the offering wouldn’t be balanced.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Credit where it is due, Klopp's Liverpool is a phenomenally good team. Man City are very brittle. They look convincing when ahead, but when behind fold like a cheap suit.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    We're now in a counting war. Counting how many tens of thousands of new Rona cases there are in America each day. And counting how many thousands of retail and hospitality jobs have been lost in the UK each day. Scary times...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    LadyG said:
    You know the answer to that one. There's nobody in government pushing it, even now. I can accept "don't wear masks" as a bit of a white lie in March, when there were huge shortages of everything protective.

    It's hard to escape the impression that the government really, really can't be bothered with Covid any more. And perhaps- like Trump- masks would be a too-visible sign of their failure to properly squash the virus.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    Always nice to get a bit of historical perspective and detail, though you can understand why things get simplified in our memories. I think my mind was blown when I discovered there used to be a Democratic-Republican Party in the USA.

    IIRC there was NOT a "Democratic-Republican" Party by name, though think there was a faction that used that moniker briefly.

    Rather, the party of Thomas Jefferson, etc. was called by it's leaders, followers & opponents the Republican Party. But to eliminate confusion with the later Republican Party (circa 1856-date) historians used Democratic-Republican for the older party.

    After the demise of the Federalist Party, the dominant old Republican Party factionalized, eventually leading to creation of two new groupings:

    >> the Democratic Party, whose initial standard-bearer was Andrew Jackson (aka The Democracy) so called because it supported greater democratization and universal White manhood suffrage.

    >> the Whig Party, named in honor of the British Whigs as opposed to British Tories (post-Glorious Revolution, pre-American Revolution). In contrast to Democrats, Whigs supported nationalism as opposed to state's rights, and distrusted democracy (especially as polluted by turbulent Irish immigrants).

    The Whig Party fell apart in 1850s (like British Liberal Party did in early 20th century) over issue of slavery. It's demise resulted in the creation of two new parties: American Party (Know Nothings) focused on threat of immigration (sound familiar?) and Republican Party dedicated to stopping the expansion of slavery. After a brief tug-of-war, the Know Nothings also fell apart (due to guess what - slavery!) and most ended up with the Republicans Party.

    The Democrats also had their splits, but retained their existence during and after the Civil War, mostly in the shadow of the Republican Party until 1932 and the advent of the New Deal.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    LadyG said:
    I know that in Austria, France and some other countries when they made masks compulsory in some situations they had people handing them out at metro stations and shops. "Here is a mask, now put it on."

    Is the British government giving out millions of masks?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Big changes in data reporting - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/ is now Pillar 1 & 2

    Daily number of lab-confirmed UK cases - 576 - big drop
    Daily number of COVID-19 associated UK deaths - 89 - another big drop

    All data from the last 3-5 days subject to further revision> last 5 days included for completeness

    England case data - Pillar 1 & 2

    image
    image
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Football didn't begin in 1992.

    Hopefully we can win the league next season and the year after to reclaim our perch of the most league titles by any squad, as well as already being the most successful club in England by major trophies.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    "Finland's air force drops swastika emblem after century in use

    The use of the symbol predated its association with Nazism but caused 'misunderstandings'"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/02/finlands-air-force-drops-swastika-emblem-century-use/
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    Excellent header Stodge. Many thanks

    I am not sure if I agree with it entirely - I would need to consider it a lot more and see some of the other arguments back and forth - but it is great to read a thread header that educates me on an aspect of political history.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    kle4 said:

    Always nice to get a bit of historical perspective and detail, though you can understand why things get simplified in our memories. I think my mind was blown when I discovered there used to be a Democratic-Republican Party in the USA.

    That is a good one. It also amuses me that the Grand Old Party in the USA is the newer of the two parties.
    I used to think that GOP stood for God's Own Party.
    The GOP had the benefit of one of America's greatest cartoonists, Thomas Nast, who made the elephant the Republican symbol and IIRC coined the term "Grand Old Party"; he also specialized in anti-Irish cartoons that would have made a Punch editor blush.

    Democratic symbol is today a donkey - a working animal in old-school USA, noot a circus attraction. However, during 1800s main Dem symbol with a cock (very belligerent rooster NOT what some of yez perverts are thinking!) Indeed, in some states the official Democratic symbol is still the fighting chicken; as in the old advice "scratch the rooster" meaning in this case, vote the straight-Democratic ticket.

    Whig symbol; was the raccoon - one reason by former Whit Congressman Davy Crockett was wearing (at least part of the time) a coon-skin cap at the Alamo.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    dfte said:

    Mike, I like it that you called him Johnson here, not Boris. Keep it that way - it's inconsistent to use a self-chosen first name for one politician which implies some form of endearment which is not universally felt!

    +1

    Yes. I strongly prefer Johnson. I wish more would use it. Not just here on PB but generally. Use of his 1st name (unless in irony) is inappropriate and borderline cringeful.
    No matter how many times people tell me its use demonstrates some form of endearment it never stops sounding like a pile of nonsense to me. I think it is really demeaning to suggest that it does in fact. Here, I'll give you an example of why it's nonsense - Boris is an arse, who has been sacked for lying multiple times. Oh heaven forfend, such endearment has been shown by that statement. There's no real implication from using Boris, that's something people are inferring.

    His brand is being known as Boris. Fine if people don't want to use it for that reason, or because they want to be consistent or more formal. But I've used both Boris and Johnson and Boris Johnson, and I don't accept this ludicrousness that if people generally refer to him as Boris they should not because it is somehow cuddly or friendly.
    Is there any other politician who you routinely refer to by their first name as a matter of course and with no irony?
    No, but that's a point about consistency, and that his particular brand being using his first name - it has nothing whatsoever to do with the preposterous and frankly insulting view of the public that it denotes endearment,which was my objection.

    You want to argue for consistency or formaility politicians should, as nearly all do, go by their first name (although frankly Sir Keir is not doing too badly in that respect)? Fine. But to get het up about it being endearing or cringy? Screw that, it's saying the public are idiotic monkeys swayed by using what isn't even his actual first name, despite very easy examples of criticising and insulting him whilst still using Boris.

    Criticising it on that basis is judging people and presuming what their views of him are based on absolutely nothing.
    I didn't say it denotes endearment. What it denotes is familiarity. Which is false. Also very odd for a politician as your answer indicates.

    He benefits big time from the phony sense of intimacy which the "Boris" handle imbues. There is no question of that. Don't kid yourself it makes no difference.

    It's then up to you whether to collaborate in this or not. But unless you are a strong supporter of him or this government I would suggest that it makes sense not to.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Oh god, you're one of those bellends who thinks football began in 1992.

    To be honest our problems when Klopp moves on will pale into comparison when the despotic regime in Abu Dhab/UAEi falls/oil prices consistently collapses and you get dumped like an ex with the clap and back to the third level of English football if you're lucky.
    I don't think football began in 1992 at all it's just that fans of other clubs don't keep banging on about what happened over 30 years ago as though it was last week.

    Most fans discussing the sport tab about the PL and CL era. Obviously Liverpool fans don't because up to now they have been spectacularly unsuccessful in the modern era. It's understandable, all you had up to Klopp's arrival was your history.

    We'll talk about what happens after our owners sell up when it happens. It's been being predicted since the day they took over.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    edited July 2020
    And a link to the spreadsheet I generated...

    England Case Data Pillars 1 & 2 -

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/14EbynHa3HVgBaPNCdl663_ZxeuvIeiNh/view?usp=sharing
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    "Boris Johnson, an admirer and biographer of Churchill"

    BoJo's "biography" is just a hair above a coloring-book version. There's no there there. Bought my copy 2nd-hand at deep discount, and still paid too much.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    NOW the situation is crystal clear!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Oh god, you're one of those bellends who thinks football began in 1992.

    To be honest our problems when Klopp moves on will pale into comparison when the despotic regime in Abu Dhab/UAEi falls/oil prices consistently collapses and you get dumped like an ex with the clap and back to the third level of English football if you're lucky.
    I don't think football began in 1992 at all it's just that fans of other clubs don't keep banging on about what happened over 30 years ago as though it was last week.

    Most fans discussing the sport tab about the PL and CL era. Obviously Liverpool fans don't because up to now they have been spectacularly unsuccessful in the modern era. It's understandable, all you had up to Klopp's arrival was your history.

    We'll talk about what happens after our owners sell up when it happens. It's been being predicted since the day they took over.

    But what happened thirty years ago is what happened last week.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    I love this plot.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    With a Tory parliamentary party now more strongly represented in the Midlands than it has been for decades, if we do end up on WTO terms and tariffs with most of the world but free trade agreements with the Anglosphere then we can say the era of Joseph Chamberlain has returned
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    IanB2 said:

    Or indeed Michael Heseltine who stood as a Liberal Unionist in his early days and arguable carried the torch through to current day.

    Attributing any sort of principles or ideology to the great self regarding pudding in Downing Street is however stretching credibility too far,

    "great self regarding pudding in Downing Street" -

    Quite like that one Ian. Yes. Has a nice ring of gentle exasperation to it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    I've said before hopefully now we're catching cases in the community sooner because of track and trace rather than catching only the sickest in the hospital. So the decrease in cases in reality is probably even more stark than the decrease in confirmed cases.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Credit where it is due, Klopp's Liverpool is a phenomenally good team. Man City are very brittle. They look convincing when ahead, but when behind fold like a cheap suit.
    195 points in the previous 2 season would tend to negate that argument.
  • It's odd how Keir changing opinions is weak yet when the Tories do constant u-turns it's a sign of strength. PB Tories never change.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    Ed Davey is going to win the Lib Dem leadership now that he has got the support of Daisy Cooper.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/07/what-does-daisy-coopers-endorsement-ed-davey-mean-liberal-democrat-leadership
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    dfte said:

    Mike, I like it that you called him Johnson here, not Boris. Keep it that way - it's inconsistent to use a self-chosen first name for one politician which implies some form of endearment which is not universally felt!

    +1

    Yes. I strongly prefer Johnson. I wish more would use it. Not just here on PB but generally. Use of his 1st name (unless in irony) is inappropriate and borderline cringeful.
    No matter how many times people tell me its use demonstrates some form of endearment it never stops sounding like a pile of nonsense to me. I think it is really demeaning to suggest that it does in fact. Here, I'll give you an example of why it's nonsense - Boris is an arse, who has been sacked for lying multiple times. Oh heaven forfend, such endearment has been shown by that statement. There's no real implication from using Boris, that's something people are inferring.

    His brand is being known as Boris. Fine if people don't want to use it for that reason, or because they want to be consistent or more formal. But I've used both Boris and Johnson and Boris Johnson, and I don't accept this ludicrousness that if people generally refer to him as Boris they should not because it is somehow cuddly or friendly.
    Is there any other politician who you routinely refer to by their first name as a matter of course and with no irony?
    No, but that's a point about consistency, and that his particular brand being using his first name - it has nothing whatsoever to do with the preposterous and frankly insulting view of the public that it denotes endearment,which was my objection.

    You want to argue for consistency or formaility politicians should, as nearly all do, go by their first name (although frankly Sir Keir is not doing too badly in that respect)? Fine. But to get het up about it being endearing or cringy? Screw that, it's saying the public are idiotic monkeys swayed by using what isn't even his actual first name, despite very easy examples of criticising and insulting him whilst still using Boris.

    Criticising it on that basis is judging people and presuming what their views of him are based on absolutely nothing.
    I didn't say it denotes endearment. What it denotes is familiarity. Which is false. Also very odd for a politician as your answer indicates.

    He benefits big time from the phony sense of intimacy which the "Boris" handle imbues. There is no question of that. Don't kid yourself it makes no difference.

    It's then up to you whether to collaborate in this or not. But unless you are a strong supporter of him or this government I would suggest that it makes sense not to.
    Wasn't Ken Livingstone usually referred to as Ken in his mayoral days? Just Ken to those who were indifferent to him, and Red Ken both to those who loathed him and those who loved him.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    I've said before hopefully now we're catching cases in the community sooner because of track and trace rather than catching only the sickest in the hospital. So the decrease in cases in reality is probably even more stark than the decrease in confirmed cases.
    Track and Trace is not the reason for the increase in testing in Leics. Indeed it is rather a flop. To quote yesterday's PHE report:


    1.5 Backward contact tracing
    A current study on the utility of backward contact tracing is being piloted across England. Leicester city residents have been included in the pilot. Against an intended sample of 50 cases, only 11 cases in the city had successfully completed the study until 24 June 2020. Preliminary analysis of the 11 cases did not identify any events with multiple households attending. Most of the cases did not report leaving home, other than for visiting supermarkets
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    Re posts yesterday afternoon re Parliamentary Constituencies Bill:

    Chloe Smith obviously realised she had made a mistake when answering John Spellar's question and she set out the correct position at the very beginning of the afternoon session yesterday:

    "I wanted to clarify a point that was raised by the right hon. Member for Warley...…………."

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-06-30/debates/421b1932-ccc1-4b40-a166-18556820ab45/ParliamentaryConstituenciesBill(EighthSitting)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    It's odd how Keir changing opinions is weak yet when the Tories do constant u-turns it's a sign of strength. PB Tories never change.

    I don't think any PB Tory has said a Tory u-turn is a sign of strength?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    PB Tories klaxon for CHB!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    Yes - saw that about the lack of spike in deaths.

    What is interesting is how the epidemic is falling off a cliff in much of the country vs the outbreaks. In many places it is gone - in others, halving in a week.
  • PB Tories klaxon for CHB!!

    And the crowd goes wild!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    If there are so many radical exciting plans to transform Britain why don't we know about them already? Isn't the usual procedure to put them in the manifesto so people know what they're voting for? And if they weren't in the manifesto, how can anyone claim the government has a mandate to implement them?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    IanB2 said:

    Or indeed Michael Heseltine who stood as a Liberal Unionist in his early days and arguable carried the torch through to current day.

    Attributing any sort of principles or ideology to the great self regarding pudding in Downing Street is however stretching credibility too far,

    The words ‘heart’ and ‘vision’ were a little jarring, too.
    But an interesting article nonetheless.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    Yes - saw that about the lack of spike in deaths.

    What is interesting is how the epidemic is falling off a cliff in much of the country vs the outbreaks. In many places it is gone - in others, halving in a week.
    2/3 of our catchment is the county of Leics rather than the city. The number of cases in the county has halved, but the rise in cases in the city means a fairly flat overall position for June.
  • A free cookie for every mention of PB Tories, yum yum
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    LadyG said:
    You know the answer to that one. There's nobody in government pushing it, even now. I can accept "don't wear masks" as a bit of a white lie in March, when there were huge shortages of everything protective.

    It's hard to escape the impression that the government really, really can't be bothered with Covid any more. And perhaps- like Trump- masks would be a too-visible sign of their failure to properly squash the virus.
    Bunch of idiots. It’s perhaps the single most simple and cost effective intervention.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Yours truly has posted some critical commentary to Stodge. Do need to add, that, historical critique aside, believe the basic point re: Boris Johnson is certainly valid. And the entire article, warts and all, is positively thought provoking. Thanks!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    A free cookie for every mention of PB Tories, yum yum

    Shouldn't that be "biscuit"? Or is there some perverted, sinister meaning of "cookie" in common Brit-speak that a sheltered one such as meself shudders to contemplate???
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited July 2020
    HYUFD said:
    Yougov has Trump back ahead with Independents 38% to 36% for Biden, 87% of Republicans are sticking with Trump, 86% of Democrats backing Biden.

    9% of voters are still undecided, 4% voting for Other candidates
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    I've said before hopefully now we're catching cases in the community sooner because of track and trace rather than catching only the sickest in the hospital. So the decrease in cases in reality is probably even more stark than the decrease in confirmed cases.
    Track and Trace is not the reason for the increase in testing in Leics. Indeed it is rather a flop. To quote yesterday's PHE report:


    1.5 Backward contact tracing
    A current study on the utility of backward contact tracing is being piloted across England. Leicester city residents have been included in the pilot. Against an intended sample of 50 cases, only 11 cases in the city had successfully completed the study until 24 June 2020. Preliminary analysis of the 11 cases did not identify any events with multiple households attending. Most of the cases did not report leaving home, other than for visiting supermarkets
    Backward tracing is surely a different thing again to track and trace?

    Ie track and trace is saying "Bob has the virus, Bob has been in touch with these 8 people, get them tested" - whereas I would imagine that backwards tracing is "Bob has the virus, who did he get it from and did anyone else get it from the same event?"

    Nationally we seem to be catching a far, far higher proportion of cases in the community than we are in the hospital. So either the disease is suddenly much less deadly (unlikely) or we're getting better as a country at tracking who's got it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Credit where it is due, Klopp's Liverpool is a phenomenally good team. Man City are very brittle. They look convincing when ahead, but when behind fold like a cheap suit.
    195 points in the previous 2 season would tend to negate that argument.
    Foxy said "are" - present tense.

    You had different defenders in the past 2 seasons than you've got this season. Not replacing Kompany in the summer does look like it was a tremendous mistake.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    "Rule of law in the EU" is shorthand for obeying the German constitutional court over the ECB I suspect.
    They should be more specific, because there's also the big row about Poland's constitutional changes that mean it is no longer abiding with European law. (And which disadvantage Germans in particular.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    I've said before hopefully now we're catching cases in the community sooner because of track and trace rather than catching only the sickest in the hospital. So the decrease in cases in reality is probably even more stark than the decrease in confirmed cases.
    Track and Trace is not the reason for the increase in testing in Leics. Indeed it is rather a flop. To quote yesterday's PHE report:


    1.5 Backward contact tracing
    A current study on the utility of backward contact tracing is being piloted across England. Leicester city residents have been included in the pilot. Against an intended sample of 50 cases, only 11 cases in the city had successfully completed the study until 24 June 2020. Preliminary analysis of the 11 cases did not identify any events with multiple households attending. Most of the cases did not report leaving home, other than for visiting supermarkets
    Backward tracing is surely a different thing again to track and trace?

    Ie track and trace is saying "Bob has the virus, Bob has been in touch with these 8 people, get them tested" - whereas I would imagine that backwards tracing is "Bob has the virus, who did he get it from and did anyone else get it from the same event?"

    Nationally we seem to be catching a far, far higher proportion of cases in the community than we are in the hospital. So either the disease is suddenly much less deadly (unlikely) or we're getting better as a country at tracking who's got it.
    Well, yes and no. Until the last few days, Tier 2 tests were recorded centrally, not seen by local Public Health.

    Incidentally the number of tested persons is available at last too.

    https://twitter.com/justinmadders/status/1278806189980123136?s=09
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited July 2020
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    I've said before hopefully now we're catching cases in the community sooner because of track and trace rather than catching only the sickest in the hospital. So the decrease in cases in reality is probably even more stark than the decrease in confirmed cases.
    Track and Trace is not the reason for the increase in testing in Leics. Indeed it is rather a flop. To quote yesterday's PHE report:


    1.5 Backward contact tracing
    A current study on the utility of backward contact tracing is being piloted across England. Leicester city residents have been included in the pilot. Against an intended sample of 50 cases, only 11 cases in the city had successfully completed the study until 24 June 2020. Preliminary analysis of the 11 cases did not identify any events with multiple households attending. Most of the cases did not report leaving home, other than for visiting supermarkets
    Backward tracing is surely a different thing again to track and trace?

    Ie track and trace is saying "Bob has the virus, Bob has been in touch with these 8 people, get them tested" - whereas I would imagine that backwards tracing is "Bob has the virus, who did he get it from and did anyone else get it from the same event?"

    Nationally we seem to be catching a far, far higher proportion of cases in the community than we are in the hospital. So either the disease is suddenly much less deadly (unlikely) or we're getting better as a country at tracking who's got it.
    Well, yes and no. Until the last few days, Tier 2 tests were recorded centrally, not seen by local Public Health.

    Incidentally the number of tested persons is available at last too.

    https://twitter.com/justinmadders/status/1278806189980123136?s=09
    Wasn't the promise 100k tests a day? Not surprising though, as won't people in hospitals will be checked regularly?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    I've said before hopefully now we're catching cases in the community sooner because of track and trace rather than catching only the sickest in the hospital. So the decrease in cases in reality is probably even more stark than the decrease in confirmed cases.
    Track and Trace is not the reason for the increase in testing in Leics. Indeed it is rather a flop. To quote yesterday's PHE report:


    1.5 Backward contact tracing
    A current study on the utility of backward contact tracing is being piloted across England. Leicester city residents have been included in the pilot. Against an intended sample of 50 cases, only 11 cases in the city had successfully completed the study until 24 June 2020. Preliminary analysis of the 11 cases did not identify any events with multiple households attending. Most of the cases did not report leaving home, other than for visiting supermarkets
    Backward tracing is surely a different thing again to track and trace?

    Ie track and trace is saying "Bob has the virus, Bob has been in touch with these 8 people, get them tested" - whereas I would imagine that backwards tracing is "Bob has the virus, who did he get it from and did anyone else get it from the same event?"

    Nationally we seem to be catching a far, far higher proportion of cases in the community than we are in the hospital. So either the disease is suddenly much less deadly (unlikely) or we're getting better as a country at tracking who's got it.
    Yes - that's what backward track and trace is. Try and find the source.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    For those who missed it, the title of Stodge's essay echoes the title of the famous book "The Strange Death of Liberal England" (1935) by George Dangerfield
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    OllyT said:

    Sixth, like the number of times Liverpool have been champions of Europe.

    Most of those wins are not in the modern football era, the European Cup was a very different competition prior to the Champions League came into being. In fact if the format had still been the same Liverpool wouldn't even have been eligible to play in it for the last 30 years.

    You now finally have your first PL title, 28 years after the competition began, well done. but let's not get carried away, the problems will start when Klopp moves on so I wouldn't overdo the gloating just yet, I'd wait till you are closing in on United's 13 titles.
    Credit where it is due, Klopp's Liverpool is a phenomenally good team. Man City are very brittle. They look convincing when ahead, but when behind fold like a cheap suit.
    195 points in the previous 2 season would tend to negate that argument.
    Foxy said "are" - present tense.

    You had different defenders in the past 2 seasons than you've got this season. Not replacing Kompany in the summer does look like it was a tremendous mistake.
    Fair enough if was only talking about this season. That being said we still have a best goal difference in the league as things stands. Winning 3 on the trot was always going to be a big ask.

    Anyway onwards and upwards to next season, although we do still have 2 trophies to go for in the remainder of this one.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    dfte said:

    Mike, I like it that you called him Johnson here, not Boris. Keep it that way - it's inconsistent to use a self-chosen first name for one politician which implies some form of endearment which is not universally felt!

    +1

    Yes. I strongly prefer Johnson. I wish more would use it. Not just here on PB but generally. Use of his 1st name (unless in irony) is inappropriate and borderline cringeful.
    No matter how many times people tell me its use demonstrates some form of endearment it never stops sounding like a pile of nonsense to me. I think it is really demeaning to suggest that it does in fact. Here, I'll give you an example of why it's nonsense - Boris is an arse, who has been sacked for lying multiple times. Oh heaven forfend, such endearment has been shown by that statement. There's no real implication from using Boris, that's something people are inferring.

    His brand is being known as Boris. Fine if people don't want to use it for that reason, or because they want to be consistent or more formal. But I've used both Boris and Johnson and Boris Johnson, and I don't accept this ludicrousness that if people generally refer to him as Boris they should not because it is somehow cuddly or friendly.
    Is there any other politician who you routinely refer to by their first name as a matter of course and with no irony?
    No, but that's a point about consistency, and that his particular brand being using his first name - it has nothing whatsoever to do with the preposterous and frankly insulting view of the public that it denotes endearment,which was my objection.

    You want to argue for consistency or formaility politicians should, as nearly all do, go by their first name (although frankly Sir Keir is not doing too badly in that respect)? Fine. But to get het up about it being endearing or cringy? Screw that, it's saying the public are idiotic monkeys swayed by using what isn't even his actual first name, despite very easy examples of criticising and insulting him whilst still using Boris.

    Criticising it on that basis is judging people and presuming what their views of him are based on absolutely nothing.
    I didn't say it denotes endearment. What it denotes is familiarity. Which is false. Also very odd for a politician as your answer indicates.

    He benefits big time from the phony sense of intimacy which the "Boris" handle imbues. There is no question of that. Don't kid yourself it makes no difference.

    It's then up to you whether to collaborate in this or not. But unless you are a strong supporter of him or this government I would suggest that it makes sense not to.
    You didn't, but the comment dfte made did, and that prompted this discussion.

    I think your description of it as collaboration and suggestion it is only for those who are strong supporters of him is insulting and beneath you. It's pathetic to suggest people are so stupid that any sense of 'familiarity' is akin to collaboration. Up yours, I thought you better than that.

    I seriously cannot grasp the mental process that thinks people are 'collaborating' in some kind of intimacy by calling him what people call him. That you maintain that position even though its used by people who are not strong supporters of his instantly makes your point utter garbage, yet people persist in it even as their own words show what garbage it is.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    England down to Low Level Authority - Pillar 1 & 2

    image

    Though no spike in Leicester deaths. 7 were added this week, but the most recent of these was on 24/6. Inpatients down again today too, to 70.
    Yes - saw that about the lack of spike in deaths.

    What is interesting is how the epidemic is falling off a cliff in much of the country vs the outbreaks. In many places it is gone - in others, halving in a week.
    2/3 of our catchment is the county of Leics rather than the city. The number of cases in the county has halved, but the rise in cases in the city means a fairly flat overall position for June.
    I was referring to the rest of the *country*, not the county. :-)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    isam said:

    Well my Dad found out he doesn't have Covid-19 today, and he doesnt seem to have cancer anymore either, so my anger at his biopsy being delayed more than three months, while the Nightingale Hospital stood empty, has subsided

    Good news for your Dad! Glad it is in remission.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    SO how do you think Trumpsky feels?

    You think the news will improve for him, based on a) COVID-19 trend; b) ecomomic trend; and c) his disinclination to throw away the shovel and stop digging the hole he's in deeper?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Nigelb said:
    One Texan to another

    Who is that masked man? Is it the Lone Ranger?

    No, it's just our Antifi Governor!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    Where the 9% who are still undecided go will determine the election
  • Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    SO how do you think Trumpsky feels?

    You think the news will improve for him, based on a) COVID-19 trend; b) ecomomic trend; and c) his disinclination to throw away the shovel and stop digging the hole he's in deeper?
    It's also a poll that has Biden lagging only 2 points behind with the over 65s. and...

    Trump getting 30% of the Hispanic vote.

    Neither of which I believe.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    SO how do you think Trumpsky feels?

    You think the news will improve for him, based on a) COVID-19 trend; b) ecomomic trend; and c) his disinclination to throw away the shovel and stop digging the hole he's in deeper?
    Speaking of polls, this from July 2 NYT:

    In addition to public surveys showing him losing decisively to Joseph R. Biden Jr. in a number of battleground states, private Republican polls in recent weeks show the president struggling even in conservative states, leading Mr. Biden by less than five points in Montana and trailing him in Georgia and even Kansas, according to G.O.P. officials who have seen the data."

    “People are making judgments about the president’s performance there and how he’s handling it,” said John Thune of South Dakota, the second-ranking Senate Republican, making no attempt to sugarcoat what he acknowledged has become a referendum on Mr. Trump’s performance. “Sometimes you get dealt a hand and you got to play it.”

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    SO how do you think Trumpsky feels?

    You think the news will improve for him, based on a) COVID-19 trend; b) ecomomic trend; and c) his disinclination to throw away the shovel and stop digging the hole he's in deeper?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    Where the 9% who are still undecided go will determine the election
    What’s your call? Trump or Biden?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    Where the 9% who are still undecided go will determine the election
    What’s your call? Trump or Biden?
    I think it will be the closest election since 2000, Pennsylvania and Florida will decide it and the result may not be conclusive for days if not weeks.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    SO how do you think Trumpsky feels?

    You think the news will improve for him, based on a) COVID-19 trend; b) ecomomic trend; and c) his disinclination to throw away the shovel and stop digging the hole he's in deeper?
    It's going to be close IMO. Pennsylvania could decide it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    SO how do you think Trumpsky feels?

    You think the news will improve for him, based on a) COVID-19 trend; b) ecomomic trend; and c) his disinclination to throw away the shovel and stop digging the hole he's in deeper?
    It's also a poll that has Biden lagging only 2 points behind with the over 65s. and...

    Trump getting 30% of the Hispanic vote.

    Agree Hispanic % for Trumpsky looks high (he got 28% of Hispanics vote in '16)

    But his showing among geezers is in line with other polling - after all, they are the group most directly affected by Trumpsky's "leadership" on COVID-19
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    Nigelb said:
    One Texan to another

    Who is that masked man? Is it the Lone Ranger?

    No, it's just our Antifi Governor!
    I thought you said you were from Seattle?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    If there are so many radical exciting plans to transform Britain why don't we know about them already? Isn't the usual procedure to put them in the manifesto so people know what they're voting for? And if they weren't in the manifesto, how can anyone claim the government has a mandate to implement them?

    There was a lot in the manifesto, including investment in public services and infrastructure. I genuinely believe many Conservative MPs and even some pb Tories did not read the 2019 manifesto. In essence, Boris ran on Labour's almost-successful 2017 platform and against Cameron and May's (and Thatcher's) Conservatism.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:
    Not the most encouraging of polls for Biden with 4 months to go.
    SO how do you think Trumpsky feels?

    You think the news will improve for him, based on a) COVID-19 trend; b) ecomomic trend; and c) his disinclination to throw away the shovel and stop digging the hole he's in deeper?
    It's going to be close IMO. Pennsylvania could decide it.
    Personally don't think its gonna be close enough in 2020 for one state - even a big one - to make the difference by itself.

    As a native of the Keystone State (my grandfather used to give me toy Penzoil trucks to play with) yours truly maintains a strong interest in PA politics.

    Trump's victory in 2016 was due to ancestoral rust-belt & rural-backwater Democrats in Western PA swinging hard his way - a pattern repeated from Maine to Washington State.

    In 2018, GOP tightened its hold in many areas captured by Trumpsky. But these gains were more than offset by Republican loses in Eastern PA, esp the Philadelphia suburbs.

    Looking to 2020, story in July 2 NYT says that local GOP leader state (for publication anyway) they are confident the President can erase current -10% PA deficit versus Biden, thanks to

    > GOP advantage in new voter registrations;
    > a return to in-person organizing versus Biden virtual campaigning;
    > a range of issues: energy (fracking), economic reopening & police defunding

    To me, the best argument is the first. However, also think that Trumpsky may have achieved his max already in Western PA outside of Pittsburgh (which is in much better economically than rest of region) whereas Dems are still gaining votes Philly & Pittburgh burbs. But registration numbers are indeed important.

    As for in-person organizing, think that Tulsa shows that might be problematic for some time. And while virtual campaigning is not my cup of tea, the Democrats are currently working it for all were worth. Delayed & late primaries help this cause, as does the massive increase in absentee voting.

    Issues are a toss-up. Fracking is a plus for Reps in rust belt & rural areas, way less so in cities & suburbs. And don't think Trumpsky is getting the better end of the economy vs health debate as premise that public health heresy makes good economic policy ain't looking so hot right now. And defunding police is a bad sound bite, but it seems that even conservative voters have been part of the BLM sea change over here since George Floyd was killed.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    If there are so many radical exciting plans to transform Britain why don't we know about them already? Isn't the usual procedure to put them in the manifesto so people know what they're voting for? And if they weren't in the manifesto, how can anyone claim the government has a mandate to implement them?

    There was a lot in the manifesto, including investment in public services and infrastructure. I genuinely believe many Conservative MPs and even some pb Tories did not read the 2019 manifesto. In essence, Boris ran on Labour's almost-successful 2017 platform and against Cameron and May's (and Thatcher's) Conservatism.
    Trump did same thing in 2016 re: infrastructure and NAFTA - ran on traditional DEMOCRATIC issues. Which yours truly thinks was what put him over the top, along with Hillary's incredible political incompetence.

    Problem for BoJo & Trumpsky here is the same - Republicans elected to Congress and Tories elected to Parliament by and large do NOT want massive public investment in infrastructure, for both ideological and business reasons.

    As for foreign trade, interesting that Trump's interest in replacing NAFTA and Johnson's in Brexit are broadly similar, designed (at least rhetorically but also at least somewhat genuinely) to get America/Britain a better deal versus China & etc/Europe. And stick it to the fuqing foreigners. Which fellow followers cheer, and business types go along with by focusing on the fine print.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    alterego said:

    Nigelb said:
    One Texan to another

    Who is that masked man? Is it the Lone Ranger?

    No, it's just our Antifi Governor!
    I thought you said you were from Seattle?
    Indeed - but the Lone Ranger was a Texas Ranger. Not a Seattle Mariner!
This discussion has been closed.