I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it
I hope sack means "remove the whip" not "remove from Shadow Cabinet".
When will Johnson be sacking Jenrick and removing the Whip from him?
When he engages in a sustained campaign of antisemitism so awful it draws the ire of the EHRC perhaps?
The Tory Party has a massive Islamophobia problem as you well know.
Your views as usual are inconsistent, we know if a Labour MP had been found to be doing what Jenrick has done, you'd be calling for them to lose the Whip.
It seems to be the 2017 manifesto with the foreign policy aims of Ed mixed with the relative unity of Blair with the robustness of Brown
We can't know, because he's come to the leadership in the middle of a huge crisis. There's very little scope for him to develop policy at this moment as it may be obsolete in five months. One of Cameron's problems was that having come up with a policy mix ('share the proceeds of growth') he was left floundering when the bad times hit and he needed to change it all.
What does Starmer need to do, therefore?
1) Provide a clear, consistent break with Corbyn, as Corbyn was a key part of the problem.
2) Draw a line under the saga of Labour's Brexit policy (which let it not be forgotten, he was directly responsible for)
3) Provide probing, intelligent opposition to make sure the government is held to account.
4) Make sure he cannot be accused of making political capital out of the worst public health crisis in a hundred years
5) Keep current Labour voters on board while ensuring he can reach out to non-voters.
6) Look, sound and behave like a plausible Prime Minister - calm, dignified, unruffled and sensible.
So how's he done so far?
1) Long Bailey. Antisemitism. Praise for the Armed Forces. Mentions of national pride. Job done.
2) We've left. End of conversation. Job also done.
3) Performances in PMQs and with the media have generally been impressive. Johnson has been forced to get better quick (although he has) and the media are giving him a fair hearing. Comments are sensible and measured. Most people will have agreed with his assessments of Cummings and Jenrick, but he did not call for their resignation.
4) Has offered to help the government, and supported many key measures. Admittedly, the offers have not been gratefully received, but he's doing the right thing and I think people appreciate that. He (and Sturgeon for the matter of that) were pitch perfect in their response to the news of Johnson's illness.
5) Knelt for BLM protests, but condemned the statue toppling by saying there is a right way and a wrong way to protest (at the same time noting he would personally prefer the statue to have been moved).
6) The rest feed into this.
He's still behind Johnson on leader ratings. No shit, he's not the PM and Johnson is. The incumbent always has an advantage. But he's narrowed the gap substantially and if he continues like this, people will be willing to give him a hearing. That's all he can do.
So far, so impressive. Again, not to say he will win - formidable barriers face him - but he is what Labour so desperately needed after Corbyn.
Fair analysis. He's been steady, had some good moments, and has not pushed too far.
Surely the only response left regarding America is an international travel ban. You can let your ladygarden breathe and not interfere in God's breath and that's fine. But you are banned from coming here with your plague
Doubt that would bother Trump much. I expect few of his supporters hold passports anyway.
Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?
Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
That's not a problem whatsoever. Why shouldn't what we sell to them meet their laws?
Who cares whatsoever about that? If we sell to any country anywhere in the entire world we need to meet their laws and regulations - but we're not obliged to meet them domestically. That's the difference.
That's a good point but what about domestic laws that might give us (or them) an unfair advantage: state subsidies, workers rights, that sort of thing?
None of those stop exports. We import tat from china and I think we'd all agree their policy on worker's rights leaves a lot to be desired.
Not really the same though is it? We apply import duties to Chinese imports.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
I’m aware of the historical genesis of FF and FG but I’ve never quite been able to get my head around what differentiates them in ideology without the Civil War context.
It reflects the division between those who were willing to sign the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty with Britain and those who weren’t.
What that means in terms of ideology now God knows.
Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?
Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
That's not a problem whatsoever. Why shouldn't what we sell to them meet their laws?
Who cares whatsoever about that? If we sell to any country anywhere in the entire world we need to meet their laws and regulations - but we're not obliged to meet them domestically. That's the difference.
That's a good point but what about domestic laws that might give us (or them) an unfair advantage: state subsidies, workers rights, that sort of thing?
None of those stop exports. We import tat from china and I think we'd all agree their policy on worker's rights leaves a lot to be desired.
Not really the same though is it? We apply import duties to Chinese imports.
The same as what? My point is that trade continues despite these disparities.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it
I hope sack means "remove the whip" not "remove from Shadow Cabinet".
When will Johnson be sacking Jenrick and removing the Whip from him?
When he engages in a sustained campaign of antisemitism so awful it draws the ire of the EHRC perhaps?
The Tory Party has a massive Islamophobia problem as you well know.
Your views as usual are inconsistent, we know if a Labour MP had been found to be doing what Jenrick has done, you'd be calling for them to lose the Whip.
I know no such thing. Any racists should be expelled from the party.
Criticising Islam, critising the niqab, criticisng misogyny, criticising homophobia is not racism. Any more than criticising paedophile priests is racist. Consistency is not racist.
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
It would also help if all sides recognised no one party has a monopoly on good ideas or indeed bad ones.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
I’m aware of the historical genesis of FF and FG but I’ve never quite been able to get my head around what differentiates them in ideology without the Civil War context.
I'm not an expert on Irish parties - other posters may contradict me - but my understanding is that while both are centre-right politically, Fianna Fail are generally more nationalistic in outlook and their voters consider themselves more distinctively Irish.
Therefore, a stitch up to keep Sinn Fein, the unabashedly nationalistic party, out of government may not end well for them.
(Incidentally I would perhaps characterise this more as the Tories, the Liberal Democrats and Labour coming together against the SNP. Which may yet happen.)
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
Looking at the media chatter about GPS and "wrong type of satellite", does anyone know where this line came from?
I can't see anything sourcing it to any Govt source. Had a little trip down the Graun rabbithole, and it just seems to be self-sourced.
I had the same issue, the satellites are clearly for communication purposes so I don't know where the idea for GPS (that led all the stories) came from.
I'm told that in theory it's possible for the satellites to be used to piggyback on a GPS system but how much truth there is in that I don't know.
Thank you for the piece, David, as always an excellent read to start the weekend.
I'm going to offer something different which I think shows the polls aren't as good for Biden as the headline figures suggest.
Taking the latest PBS/Marist poll and comparing it to the 2016 vote and looking at the four "regions" of the US:
In the Northeast which provided 19% of the vote in 2016, Biden leads 62-34 whereas Clinton won the region 55-40 in 2016. That might give Biden a shot at PA and Maine 2 but the Democrats already have a stranglehold on most of the other states.
In the West (21% of the vote in 2016), Biden leads 60-36 compared to 55-39 last time. Biden might win Arizona but all he is doing is piling up votes where he doesn't need them in California.
In the South (37% of the vote in 2016), Trump leads 49-45 whereas he won the region 52-44 in 2016 so the position is little changed with Biden so the question is whether Biden is making any headway in Georgia or Florida or is Trump piling up votes in Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi to name but three.
Finally, to the battleground, the Midwest which contributed 23% of the vote last time and which Trump won 49-45. Currently he is up 52-45 so he has improved his position on 2016.
So my reading is Trump's position is far stronger than the headline numbers suggest. Biden is piling up votes where he doesn't need them (the Northeast and the West) but not picking them up where he does in the Midwest and South.
This election is far from over.
I think Bidens vote is more efficiently distributed than Clinton's. Trump is doing relatively better in 2 states polled, California and Maryland. Trumps vote may well be less efficient.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I would not rule out a Biden landslide, but I think that in the end, most States will revert to type. Texas, Ohio, Georgia will stay Red, if narrowly. It's like when you see polls putting the Conservatives 10% ahead in Wales - you know it won't happen on the day.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?
Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
True for most export markets surely?
True for all exports markets surely?
To an extent. But the Euro market looks like it has a couple of different properties to, say the USA. It's huge (much bigger than the UK domestic market) and really close by (so transport times are pretty low).
The first of those means that, even outside the Single Market, a lot of firms are going to continue to shadow EU rules. In many cases, it's simply not going to be worth setting up separate production lines for home and export markets.
The second means that any extra hassle at the border is significant. The UK simply hasn't worked out how to make Dover-Calais work with the throughput it currently has with significant extra checks. If the government had been serious about no trade deal, or even loose trade deal, they are leaving it awfully late to sort out this fairly fundamental point.
Hence the "Freedom To Diverge Whenever We Like, But Not Just Yet, But It's Not An Extension" theory. It's absurd, and not good for the UK in the medium term, but when you eliminate the impossible...
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
My point was more that if the price of UK chicken is already lower than that in the US, why would any company source it from the US?
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
It would also help if all sides recognised no one party has a monopoly on good ideas or indeed bad ones.
What's weird is they do unofficially recognise that as they steal ideas from each other all the time, either post election or in the next manifesto usually.
I still remember Cameron making his pitch in the first debate in 2010 and stating that not everything Labour did was bad, and the good bits he'd keep.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
Only one party was institutionally racist and that's the one you wanted to win the election at the time of the last election (even if you say otherwise now). Your attempts of whatabouterism is nonsensical.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
I’m aware of the historical genesis of FF and FG but I’ve never quite been able to get my head around what differentiates them in ideology without the Civil War context.
I'm not an expert on Irish parties - other posters may contradict me - but my understanding is that while both are centre-right politically, Fianna Fail are generally more nationalistic in outlook and their voters consider themselves more distinctively Irish.
Therefore, a stitch up to keep Sinn Fein, the unabashedly nationalistic party, out of government may not end well for them.
(Incidentally I would perhaps charcterise this more as the Tories, the Liberal Democrats and Labour coming together against the SNP. Which may yet happen.)
I knew that FF was the more nationalistic as a result of how the party emerged from the Civil War but, again, what differentiates them otherwise? SF is certainly more nationalistic but it’s also more left wing so you could see this as Irish politics beginning to resemble those of the rest of Europe a little more closely.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
A lot of the chicken consumed in this country comes from Thailand.
How many people know that ? How many people care ?
Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?
Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
True for most export markets surely?
True for all exports markets surely?
To an extent. But the Euro market looks like it has a couple of different properties to, say the USA. It's huge (much bigger than the UK domestic market) and really close by (so transport times are pretty low).
The first of those means that, even outside the Single Market, a lot of firms are going to continue to shadow EU rules. In many cases, it's simply not going to be worth setting up separate production lines for home and export markets.
The second means that any extra hassle at the border is significant. The UK simply hasn't worked out how to make Dover-Calais work with the throughput it currently has with significant extra checks. If the government had been serious about no trade deal, or even loose trade deal, they are leaving it awfully late to sort out this fairly fundamental point.
Hence the "Freedom To Diverge Whenever We Like, But Not Just Yet, But It's Not An Extension" theory. It's absurd, and not good for the UK in the medium term, but when you eliminate the impossible...
If companies choose to shadow EU rules that's their choice and they're free to do so.
Many Canadian firms choose to shadow USA rules for their exports but the USA and Canada are not the same and do not have the same rules.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
I’m aware of the historical genesis of FF and FG but I’ve never quite been able to get my head around what differentiates them in ideology without the Civil War context.
I'm not an expert on Irish parties - other posters may contradict me - but my understanding is that while both are centre-right politically, Fianna Fail are generally more nationalistic in outlook and their voters consider themselves more distinctively Irish.
Therefore, a stitch up to keep Sinn Fein, the unabashedly nationalistic party, out of government may not end well for them.
(Incidentally I would perhaps charcterise this more as the Tories, the Liberal Democrats and Labour coming together against the SNP. Which may yet happen.)
I knew that FF was the more nationalistic as a result of how the party emerged from the Civil War but, again, what differentiates them otherwise? SF is certainly more nationalistic but it’s also more left wing so you could see this as Irish politics beginning to resemble those of the rest of Europe a little more closely.
To be blunt, I don't know that there is a lot. That is why I wonder if FF are wise to be gifting their main selling point to another party.
John O'Farrell said when he asked an Irish cousin what the difference was between the two parties, he got the answer, 'That's easy. It's the difference between shit and shite.'
Surely the only response left regarding America is an international travel ban. You can let your ladygarden breathe and not interfere in God's breath and that's fine. But you are banned from coming here with your plague
Doubt that would bother Trump much. I expect few of his supporters hold passports anyway.
Under half of Americans do:
The share of the U.S. population with a passport stood at 27 percent in 2007 and that has now increased to 42 percent. As impressive as recent growth has been, the share of passport holders still lags far behind other developed countries. In Canada, 66 percent of people had a passport in 2016 while in the UK, 76 percent of people in England and Wales have one.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
A lot of the chicken consumed in this country comes from Thailand.
How many people know that ? How many people care ?
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
Sinn Fein voters clearly don't like the stitch-up!
Astounding!
Even if you top the poll no one has a right to be in government if you fall short of majority, with or without natural allies, but it doesn't stop people being mad. I'm sure I recall Tories being apoplectic at the idea Brown might stay in office, but if he'd cobbled together a suitable alliance, that's that.
This does make me worry SF will indeed top the next poll though.
I am not convinced either of 'build build build' (depending what is meant by that exhortation I suppose) or of the need for a stimulus package. We need to be very careful with both. Hopefully the lessons from Brown's pointless VAT reduction have been noted.
Hey, we are currently mired in scandal about property development. What should we do?
Make a speech about building...
Johnson's bricking it.
But still won't render the Jenrick story unnewsworthy
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
A lot of the chicken consumed in this country comes from Thailand.
How many people know that ? How many people care ?
You learn something new every day. I assume the US poultry standards are lower?
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
Only one party was institutionally racist and that's the one you wanted to win the election at the time of the last election (even if you say otherwise now). Your attempts of whatabouterism is nonsensical.
I did want Labour to win and I have never said otherwise. But I don't claim to vote for the Tories on grounds of anti-racism, as you do.
Sayeeda Warsi says the Tories have an Islamophobia problem. I know you'll say she's talking nonsense but if I said a Labour Jewish Peer was making up anti-Semitism or exaggerating it, you would call me anti-Semitic (and you would have good grounds to argue as such).
You are without a doubt, the biggest hypocrite on this website - and the most boring to talk to because you are so closed minded. Mostly every other Tory I can talk to and find common ground with on some issues (with some other notable exceptions) but with you, you will defend the Tories and take the CCHQ line regardless of what they do.
Talking to you thus is a waste of my time and I will refrain in future. I can read the Daily Mail and the Telegraph to get an idea of your views and save myself some time. Good day.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
Caroline Lucas voted against a Brexit compromise, for that I lost a lot of respect for her.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
For those who eat beef, the amount of antibiotics in US beef is of at least as much concern - and the vast amounts used in beef production and the consequences for the widespread evolution of bacterial resistance, a concern for all of us.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
Sinn Fein voters clearly don't like the stitch-up!
Astounding!
Even if you top the poll no one has a right to be in government if you fall short of majority, with or without natural allies, but it doesn't stop people being mad. I'm sure I recall Tories being apoplectic at the idea Brown might stay in office, but if he'd cobbled together a suitable alliance, that's that.
This does make me worry SF will indeed top the next poll though.
Naively I would expect the current situation to be a net positive for them. They can sit back while the weak coalition has to deal with the economic fallout of the biggest health crisis in a century.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
Only one party was institutionally racist and that's the one you wanted to win the election at the time of the last election (even if you say otherwise now). Your attempts of whatabouterism is nonsensical.
I did want Labour to win and I have never said otherwise. But I don't claim to vote for the Tories on grounds of anti-racism, as you do.
Sayeeda Warsi says the Tories have an Islamophobia problem. I know you'll say she's talking nonsense but if I said a Labour Jewish Peer was making up anti-Semitism or exaggerating it, you would call me anti-Semitic (and you would have good grounds to argue as such).
You are without a doubt, the biggest hypocrite on this website - and the most boring to talk to because you are so closed minded. Mostly every other Tory I can talk to and find common ground with on some issues (with some other notable exceptions) but with you, you will defend the Tories and take the CCHQ line regardless of what they do.
Talking to you thus is a waste of my time and I will refrain in future. I can read the Daily Mail and the Telegraph to get an idea of your views and save myself some time. Good day.
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
Sinn Fein voters clearly don't like the stitch-up!
Astounding!
Even if you top the poll no one has a right to be in government if you fall short of majority, with or without natural allies, but it doesn't stop people being mad. I'm sure I recall Tories being apoplectic at the idea Brown might stay in office, but if he'd cobbled together a suitable alliance, that's that.
This does make me worry SF will indeed top the next poll though.
Naively I would expect the current situation to be a net positive for them. They can sit back while the weak coalition has to deal with the economic fallout of the biggest health crisis in a century.
Didn't work for Labour in this country, of course.
In some parallel universe, Corbyn stepped down after 2017, Starmer took over and his currently planning an election after running an emergency Government to resolve Brexit
Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?
The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.
You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
Sinn Fein voters clearly don't like the stitch-up!
Astounding!
Even if you top the poll no one has a right to be in government if you fall short of majority, with or without natural allies, but it doesn't stop people being mad. I'm sure I recall Tories being apoplectic at the idea Brown might stay in office, but if he'd cobbled together a suitable alliance, that's that.
This does make me worry SF will indeed top the next poll though.
Naively I would expect the current situation to be a net positive for them. They can sit back while the weak coalition has to deal with the economic fallout of the biggest health crisis in a century.
Didn't work for Labour in this country, of course.
But who will be the Liberal Democrats?
I don't think the situation is quite the same, but fair enough. I think the fact they came first and have been deliberately excluded from government will be a big motivator for their base going forward.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
A lot of the chicken consumed in this country comes from Thailand.
How many people know that ? How many people care ?
Yes, but the Thai export chicken has to be produced to our standards. The US could too, if they meet the standards, so non chlorinated etc.
Worth remembering that the British public poll quite strongly to maintain or even tighten food production standards.
Interestingly, the desire to maintain standards was stronger in the low income group. Perhaps because wealthier people can afford to buy the higher range stuff, and do.
I cannot see chlorinated chicken etc being a vote winner for the Tories. Neither public nor farmers want it.
lol, he even used the "I have many X friends" defence.
I don't, that's the only reason I don't say racist things as I cannot use that defence.
I recall a great Jon Stewart segment which had a clip of a literal Klansman, in robes, saying he had a lot of black friends (he was 'only' racist in the sense he was a miscegenist, he claimed). It was around the time of a story of a basketball team owner being recorded by his girlfriend angry she had brought a black person to a game, but not caring if she'd slept with them, apparently. The motto of the story being the range of racism from 'You can be friends with them, but not f*ck them, to you can f*ck them, just don't be seen with them'.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
My point was more that if the price of UK chicken is already lower than that in the US, why would any company source it from the US?
It’s the difference in wholesale prices which matter not retail prices.
As for Thailand, it has done a lot to improve its treatment of chickens in recent years which is why it can export to the EU. Even the RSPCA has praised it.
The US is simply not willing to address the health and animal welfare concerns raised about its treatment of chickens, preferring to whine about protectionism and bully weak countries instead.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
A lot of the chicken consumed in this country comes from Thailand.
How many people know that ? How many people care ?
You learn something new every day. I assume the US poultry standards are lower?
Very possibly.
But the number of people who actually care about food quality standards is rather less than those who want to posture about them.
EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it
I hope sack means "remove the whip" not "remove from Shadow Cabinet".
When will Johnson be sacking Jenrick and removing the Whip from him?
When he engages in a sustained campaign of antisemitism so awful it draws the ire of the EHRC perhaps?
The Tory Party has a massive Islamophobia problem as you well know.
Your views as usual are inconsistent, we know if a Labour MP had been found to be doing what Jenrick has done, you'd be calling for them to lose the Whip.
I know no such thing. Any racists should be expelled from the party.
Criticising Islam, critising the niqab, criticisng misogyny, criticising homophobia is not racism. Any more than criticising paedophile priests is racist. Consistency is not racist.
It can be. Indirect discrimination is when a policy is consistently applied to everyone but particularly affects a group of people because of their protected characteristic. This type of discrimination can sometimes be justified if a policy is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. This legitimate aim can be something like maintaining a company image or protecting health and safety. Insisting that fruit pickers (as opposed to teachers) speak perfect English, for example, is consistent, but racist as it is a policy that has no legitimate aim - there is no need for fruit pickers to have much more than a basic grasp of English, if that. While criticising homophobia and misogyny in all cases is clearly a legitimate aim, I fail to see how blanket criticism of the niqab is always justified and therefore and not racist.
BTW indirect discrimination also means that provisions impacting Muslims disproportionately impact people of South Asian and Middle Eastern decent, so can be racist as well as islamophobic. Similarly discrimination against Catholics in the UK has often been coded discrimination against Irish people.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
My point was more that if the price of UK chicken is already lower than that in the US, why would any company source it from the US?
It’s the difference in wholesale prices which matter not retail prices.
As for Thailand, it has done a lot to improve its treatment of chickens in recent years which is why it can export to the EU. Even the RSPCA has praised it.
The US is simply not willing to address the health and animal welfare concerns raised about its treatment of chickens, preferring to whine about protectionism and bully weak countries instead.
Ah, good point about retail vs. wholesale, I was only comparing the two retail prices given earlier.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
Only one party was institutionally racist and that's the one you wanted to win the election at the time of the last election (even if you say otherwise now). Your attempts of whatabouterism is nonsensical.
I did want Labour to win and I have never said otherwise. But I don't claim to vote for the Tories on grounds of anti-racism, as you do.
Sayeeda Warsi says the Tories have an Islamophobia problem. I know you'll say she's talking nonsense but if I said a Labour Jewish Peer was making up anti-Semitism or exaggerating it, you would call me anti-Semitic (and you would have good grounds to argue as such).
You are without a doubt, the biggest hypocrite on this website - and the most boring to talk to because you are so closed minded. Mostly every other Tory I can talk to and find common ground with on some issues (with some other notable exceptions) but with you, you will defend the Tories and take the CCHQ line regardless of what they do.
Talking to you thus is a waste of my time and I will refrain in future. I can read the Daily Mail and the Telegraph to get an idea of your views and save myself some time. Good day.
While @Philip_Thompson usually takes the party line, he does notably deviate on some issues, BLM for example.
The only Trotskyite who changes their view when the party line changes is @HYUFD as far as I can see. Pretty much everyone else deviates from their party line at times.
If you have a leader who approves of clearly anti-semitic murals etc, and who is a serial rebel, don't be surprised if you end up with an endemic anti-semitism problem and a discipline problem.
If you have a leader who has been sacked for lying, conspires in a plan to beat up a journalist, and hands out contracts to sexual conquests, don't be surprised if you end up with an endemic sleaze problem.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
Only one party was institutionally racist and that's the one you wanted to win the election at the time of the last election (even if you say otherwise now). Your attempts of whatabouterism is nonsensical.
I did want Labour to win and I have never said otherwise. But I don't claim to vote for the Tories on grounds of anti-racism, as you do.
Sayeeda Warsi says the Tories have an Islamophobia problem. I know you'll say she's talking nonsense but if I said a Labour Jewish Peer was making up anti-Semitism or exaggerating it, you would call me anti-Semitic (and you would have good grounds to argue as such).
You are without a doubt, the biggest hypocrite on this website - and the most boring to talk to because you are so closed minded. Mostly every other Tory I can talk to and find common ground with on some issues (with some other notable exceptions) but with you, you will defend the Tories and take the CCHQ line regardless of what they do.
Talking to you thus is a waste of my time and I will refrain in future. I can read the Daily Mail and the Telegraph to get an idea of your views and save myself some time. Good day.
While @Philip_Thompson usually takes the party line, he does notably deviate on some issues, BLM for example.
And Brexit under May and the floated proposals on Jury trials.
I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong
I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.
You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.
If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.
And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.
If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.
The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.
If it can't get much cheaper why the huge worry over chlorinated chicken?
Processed foods, school meals, hospital meals etc: once it enters the food chain at any point, there is no way of knowing whether you are eating it or using it, which will also destroy the export market (particularly to the Eu and other places which don’t allow the importation of US stuff) for a lot of our food if, say, pie makers cannot guarantee that there is no chlorinated chicken in their product.
A lot of the chicken consumed in this country comes from Thailand.
How many people know that ? How many people care ?
Yes, but the Thai export chicken has to be produced to our standards. The US could too, if they meet the standards, so non chlorinated etc.
Worth remembering that the British public poll quite strongly to maintain or even tighten food production standards.
Interestingly, the desire to maintain standards was stronger in the low income group. Perhaps because wealthier people can afford to buy the higher range stuff, and do.
I cannot see chlorinated chicken etc being a vote winner for the Tories. Neither public nor farmers want it.
If there is such support for high food standards then why is battery farmed chicken so widespread ?
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
She's a woman. So she must be 'shrill'.
She achieves a heck of a lot more as a lone voice than most of the make weights on the green benches put together.
Hence the "Freedom To Diverge Whenever We Like, But Not Just Yet, But It's Not An Extension" theory. It's absurd, and not good for the UK in the medium term, but when you eliminate the impossible...
This still seems like the most likely outcome to me: A BINO that gets sold as a great Boris victory over the perfidious EUrocrats. Do people really think Johnson et al will step over the precipice in six months time given the current woeful state of preparation?
No: they’ll negotiate a deal that lets us diverge if we want to in the future, but in the meantime lets us keep access to the single market for the cheap, cheap rate of (just pulling a number out of the air here you understand) £350million a week. This will be pushed as a great victory for Britain, because what’s the alternative? Throw half the UK supply chain under the bus because we haven’t got the port capacity to implement WTO rules?
Maybe this is all wrong & there’s a wonderful plan in place to make sure everything goes smoothly: I certainly hope so. The leaked agreements that have been reported in the press with blank pages marked "plan goes here" do not exactly inspire confidence though, do they?
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
Hence the "Freedom To Diverge Whenever We Like, But Not Just Yet, But It's Not An Extension" theory. It's absurd, and not good for the UK in the medium term, but when you eliminate the impossible...
This still seems like the most likely outcome to me: A BINO that gets sold as a great Boris victory over the perfidious EUrocrats. Do people really think Johnson et al will step over the precipice in six months time given the current woeful state of preparation?
No: they’ll negotiate a deal that lets us diverge if we want to in the future, but in the meantime lets us keep access to the single market for the cheap, cheap rate of, just pulling a number out of the air here you understand, £350million a week. This will be pushed as a great victory for Britain, because what’s the alternative? Throw half the UK supply chain under the bus because we haven’t got the port capacity to implement WTO rules?
Maybe this is all wrong & there’s a plan in place to make sure everything goes smoothly. I certainly hope so, but the leaked agreements that have been reported in the press with blank pages marked "plan goes here" does not exactly inspire confidence does it?
I don't think there is much chance of the payment to be larger than the original membership fee, especially if it's only for access to the single market (which everyone has anyway).
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
I think like most parties - and perhaps even more so - constituency Green Parties vary a lot from seat to seat. I've known ones that think Corbyn's problem is that he's not a proper socialist, and others who are extremely pragmatic and even small-c conservative. Likewise with UKIP (when it was a thing) - some were full of rather likeable, vaguely romantic old duffers, and others were the BNP in ill-fitting suits.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Anyone who voted for either main party on the grounds of anti-racism is a filthy hypocrite.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
Only one party was institutionally racist and that's the one you wanted to win the election at the time of the last election (even if you say otherwise now). Your attempts of whatabouterism is nonsensical.
I did want Labour to win and I have never said otherwise. But I don't claim to vote for the Tories on grounds of anti-racism, as you do.
Sayeeda Warsi says the Tories have an Islamophobia problem. I know you'll say she's talking nonsense but if I said a Labour Jewish Peer was making up anti-Semitism or exaggerating it, you would call me anti-Semitic (and you would have good grounds to argue as such).
You are without a doubt, the biggest hypocrite on this website - and the most boring to talk to because you are so closed minded. Mostly every other Tory I can talk to and find common ground with on some issues (with some other notable exceptions) but with you, you will defend the Tories and take the CCHQ line regardless of what they do.
Talking to you thus is a waste of my time and I will refrain in future. I can read the Daily Mail and the Telegraph to get an idea of your views and save myself some time. Good day.
I don't claim to vote for the Tories on just the grounds of anti-racism. Though its a factor.
Sayeeda Warsi is wrong. If it was just one person claiming Labour had a problem - and if that one person was an extremist themselves - then that'd be completely different. The fact that you can't see a difference between one extremist saying something on the Tory side and a hundred or more people saying it on the Labour side beggars belief.
As for taking the CCHQ line that is completely preposterous too. I opposed VEHEMENTLY the Tory government last year.
Of the top of the head I've disagreed recently with "the CCHQ line" on the following occasions recently:
1: I fundamentally opposed the idea of the abolition of trial by jury, said it was a deal-breaker and I'd oppose the government if it proceeded with that. 2: I have said repeatedly it is wrong that beer gardens are still shut and they should have been opened before indoor non-essential shops. 3: Prior to the furlough etc being announced I argued here that businesses were incapable of paying wages based on the support package proposed so far and something else needed to be done or businesses would inevitably have to sack their staff. 4: I supported the protest in Bristol that pulled down the slavers statue. 5: I said Boris should "take the knee" in front of Downing Street when this started. 6: I have repeatedly defended and supported Starmer for "taking the knee". 7: A couple of times I've said that Starmer won PMQs. Only once have I said Boris has against Starmer.
That's just off the top of my head. That's without considering my vehement opposition of Theresa May or her deal when that was the CCHQ line.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
It's a bit worrying that the complainant thought it must be racism rather than something like performance.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
She's a woman. So she must be 'shrill'.
She achieves a heck of a lot more as a lone voice than most of the make weights on the green benches put together.
Handy word for identifying unconscious misogyny though.
Coronavirus has propelled the American right to a whole new level of batshit crazy.
A rather generous view.
There was an american chappie who went on a march to protest that Covid did not exist and was a conspiracy against his freedom. Two weeks later he had a piccie posted whilst on a ventilator going "OMG! It is real. There IS a virus"
It is evolution in action. At this rate there will be less far-right, religious nut-jobs in a few months time.
I don't think there is much chance of the payment to be larger than the original membership fee, especially if it's only for access to the single market (which everyone has anyway).
The EU is going to have us over the proverbial barrel. £350million a week is cheap compared to the downside cost & we can’t afford the downside cost right now. Without coronavirus it might have been doable, but those costs + the immediate costs of a hard exit from the EU without the border capacity required to process necessary imports+exports?
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
The Greens only led Brighton Council from 2011-2015 - what was so pathetic about their record? They weren't great, but nor were they noticeably awful.
Interesting use of the word "shrill" re. Caroline Lucas. Anyway I don't agree - often, though not always, she talks sense. Over the years, much of what she's argued for has ended up being adopted by one or both of the main parties.
On workplace racism, it is definitely much more difficult to find cases than out in the streets, being called a p-word or n-word or being spat at is an open and shut case of racism. In the workplace it's careers being held back which definitely happens a lot, but proving it was down to racial background or it actually being because of racial background is not easy.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
She's a woman. So she must be 'shrill'.
She achieves a heck of a lot more as a lone voice than most of the make weights on the green benches put together.
I'm quite happy to describe Francois as 'shrill' too.
I'm using the word because she gets so worked up all the time about matters she doesn't appear to fully understand, not because of her gender.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
I'm not sure what the point of the Greens in England and Wales is TBH at the national level now beyond Caroline Lucas under FPTP as opposed to the local level where they have built up strength in some areas such as Brighton, Bristol and Solihull, Stroud etc.
Focusing so much on the EU instead of electoral reform and the environment etc was bizarre.
I was surprised they stood down for so many seats for Labour in 2017 for nothing in return when labour had a less remain friendly and more opportunist position than 2019 then.
I think they will struggle to get more than 4% at the next GE like 2015 even if Starmer disappoints the left.
On the other hand they may be more likely to cooperate with Labour on a local level in areas like Derbyshire where the greens can win rural wards at a local level on a populist/nimby etc platform that Labour cannot win.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
She's a woman. So she must be 'shrill'.
She achieves a heck of a lot more as a lone voice than most of the make weights on the green benches put together.
Handy word for identifying unconscious misogyny though.
Says somebody who has only dished out abuse to posters since you first started commenting.
Hence the "Freedom To Diverge Whenever We Like, But Not Just Yet, But It's Not An Extension" theory. It's absurd, and not good for the UK in the medium term, but when you eliminate the impossible...
This still seems like the most likely outcome to me: A BINO that gets sold as a great Boris victory over the perfidious EUrocrats. Do people really think Johnson et al will step over the precipice in six months time given the current woeful state of preparation?
No: they’ll negotiate a deal that lets us diverge if we want to in the future, but in the meantime lets us keep access to the single market for the cheap, cheap rate of, just pulling a number out of the air here you understand, £350million a week. This will be pushed as a great victory for Britain, because what’s the alternative? Throw half the UK supply chain under the bus because we haven’t got the port capacity to implement WTO rules?
Maybe this is all wrong & there’s a plan in place to make sure everything goes smoothly. I certainly hope so, but the leaked agreements that have been reported in the press with blank pages marked "plan goes here" does not exactly inspire confidence does it?
I don't think there is much chance of the payment to be larger than the original membership fee, especially if it's only for access to the single market (which everyone has anyway).
I don't think Johnson and his crowd are interested in a deal really. They have already gone back on items in the WA which they proposed and is the legal position at the moment. We are running out of time. With Merkel in charge now she will try to move things on, but in the end she has to look after 27 countries interests.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
It's a bit worrying that the complainant thought it must be racism rather than something like performance.
It's really not, I've been in that situation before as well and as someone who isn't white I wondered whether it played a role in the decision and had an informal sit down with the manager and he explained it was a performance related but later found out the person who got the promotion was the nephew of a VP level manager so I left that job. What I had initially put down to possibly being racism was in fact nepotism.
I would not rule out a Biden landslide, but I think that in the end, most States will revert to type. Texas, Ohio, Georgia will stay Red, if narrowly. It's like when you see polls putting the Conservatives 10% ahead in Wales - you know it won't happen on the day.
I tend to agree, a Biden win but not a landslide. I'd settle for that provided it's not close enough for Trump to cry fraud and foment civil unrest.
An absolute trouncing of Trump would be worth staying pall night for though.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
It's a bit worrying that the complainant thought it must be racism rather than something like performance.
Most people (across the board) rather overestimate their abilities. If you believe (quite possibly wrongly) that you are the best person for the job, it's somewhat natural to try to explain it by something else. And everyone can find something - whether racism, sexism, ageism, or in the case of middle aged white hetrosexual men like myself, reverse discrimination. It's not an attractive truth, but it's not new, surprising, or limited to one group of people.
The fact people overestimate their abilities is supported by quite a bit of research. If you ask a person to rate their talents, charisma, physical attractiveness, driving skill or pretty much anything, they will fairly consistently rate themselves higher than other people will rate them on the same measures. The one group who are very realistic in their assessments are those who are clinically depressed.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
It's a bit worrying that the complainant thought it must be racism rather than something like performance.
It's really not, I've been in that situation before as well and as someone who isn't white I wondered whether it played a role in the decision and had an informal sit down with the manager and he explained it was a performance related but later found out the person who got the promotion was the nephew of a VP level manager so I left that job. What I had initially put down to possibly being racism was in fact nepotism.
It's quite possible I misunderstood your post, and the complaint was simply trying to work out why they were overlooked rather than a direct accusation of it being because of racism.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
I'm not sure what the point of the Greens in England and Wales is TBH at the national level now beyond Caroline Lucas under FPTP as opposed to the local level where they have built up strength in some areas such as Brighton, Bristol and Solihull, Stroud etc.
Focusing so much on the EU instead of electoral reform and the environment etc was bizarre.
I was surprised they stood down for so many seats for Labour in 2017 for nothing in return when labour had a less remain friendly and more opportunist position than 2019 then.
I think they will struggle to get more than 4% at the next GE like 2015 even if Starmer disappoints the left.
On the other hand they may be more likely to cooperate with Labour on a local level in areas like Derbyshire where the greens can win rural wards at a local level on a populist/nimby etc platform that Labour cannot win.
I have some admiration for some local greens in my area - they are organised, always lobbying on community issues, and stood in 5x the seats they had in the previous elections. Not that it helped them any, but I admired their efforts.
I also respected Corbyn for not endorsing as much cooperation, eg standing down against Lucas. She's pretty safe in that seat at the moment, but there's no reason Labour shouldn't stand against her.
Coronavirus has propelled the American right to a whole new level of batshit crazy.
A rather generous view.
There was an american chappie who went on a march to protest that Covid did not exist and was a conspiracy against his freedom. Two weeks later he had a piccie posted whilst on a ventilator going "OMG! It is real. There IS a virus"
It is evolution in action. At this rate there will be less far-right, religious nut-jobs in a few months time.
Black people are murdering each other in terrible numbers in US cities. In the UK we have a big problem with knife crime deaths in the same community.
I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
As is the conservative party
Won't stop people arguing that their cesspit smells great though.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
I have more respect for those who abstained.
That's what the LDs are traditionally for.
Bastards didn't stand in Cannock Chase.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
I've never felt the Greens are comparable to other mainstream parties, they are far more radical. I've voted LD in 3 GEs, and I'd not think a suitable alternative would be a Green.
In my case it's more because I felt they don't have anything useful to say on a national level. Their manifesto was arguably less environmentally friendly than Labour's, or even Cameron's 2010 manifesto. So what's the point of voting for them?
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
The Greens only led Brighton Council from 2011-2015 - what was so pathetic about their record? They weren't great, but nor were they noticeably awful.
Interesting use of the word "shrill" re. Caroline Lucas. Anyway I don't agree - often, though not always, she talks sense. Over the years, much of what she's argued for has ended up being adopted by one or both of the main parties.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
While I wouldn't deny that there was workplace racism in the NHS internally, it certainly is a common experience for public facing staff.
I agree though that perceptions can be wrong, and have been involved in some disciplinary proceedings where allegations of racism were made to fight performance management.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
It's a bit worrying that the complainant thought it must be racism rather than something like performance.
Most people (across the board) rather overestimate their abilities. If you believe (quite possibly wrongly) that you are the best person for the job, it's somewhat natural to try to explain it by something else. And everyone can find something - whether racism, sexism, ageism, or in the case of middle aged white hetrosexual men like myself, reverse discrimination. It's not an attractive truth, but it's not new, surprising, or limited to one group of people.
The fact people overestimate their abilities is supported by quite a bit of research. If you ask a person to rate their talents, charisma, physical attractiveness, driving skill or pretty much anything, they will fairly consistently rate themselves higher than other people will rate them on the same measures. The one group who are very realistic in their assessments are those who are clinically depressed.
That itself is pretty depressing - that the depressed are likely to be more right about their own abilities than anyone else.
Hence the "Freedom To Diverge Whenever We Like, But Not Just Yet, But It's Not An Extension" theory. It's absurd, and not good for the UK in the medium term, but when you eliminate the impossible...
This still seems like the most likely outcome to me: A BINO that gets sold as a great Boris victory over the perfidious EUrocrats. Do people really think Johnson et al will step over the precipice in six months time given the current woeful state of preparation?
No: they’ll negotiate a deal that lets us diverge if we want to in the future, but in the meantime lets us keep access to the single market for the cheap, cheap rate of, just pulling a number out of the air here you understand, £350million a week. This will be pushed as a great victory for Britain, because what’s the alternative? Throw half the UK supply chain under the bus because we haven’t got the port capacity to implement WTO rules?
Maybe this is all wrong & there’s a plan in place to make sure everything goes smoothly. I certainly hope so, but the leaked agreements that have been reported in the press with blank pages marked "plan goes here" does not exactly inspire confidence does it?
I don't think there is much chance of the payment to be larger than the original membership fee, especially if it's only for access to the single market (which everyone has anyway).
£350 million per week would be excessive. But £300 million? £275 million? Basically somewhere between the bus figure and the actual real cost before.
I don't really think that would happen, but a) It would be the Banterverse solution and b) With Boris presumably in charge of the final negotiations, I wouldn't be that shocked.
Why would anyone be so stupid as to think we should not be seeking advice from Germany and other nations for an as yet covid app that works in any country 100%
Don't see anyone saying it is stupid, however it is extremely humiliating, first they bragged they would build their own world beating app, failed, then they said they were working with Apple, Apple said No you are not, lied, now begging Germany to et them out of the mire, humiliating. Why are they not waving their blue passports.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
Sorry but that poll cannt be an objective assessment of the situation. Perception is not truth.
Workplace racism is a difficult one to gauge as there is a lot of perceived racism that isn't actually. I promoted a white woman ahead of a black guy late last year. Initially there was a lot of worry about it being seen as a racial decision and I got called into HR to explain why on the record in case there was a complaint (which there was) and it simply came down to her work performance being consistently better and I had the numbers to back that up. Race didn't even enter the equation until it was pointed out to me that it may be an issue.
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
It's a bit worrying that the complainant thought it must be racism rather than something like performance.
Most people (across the board) rather overestimate their abilities. If you believe (quite possibly wrongly) that you are the best person for the job, it's somewhat natural to try to explain it by something else. And everyone can find something - whether racism, sexism, ageism, or in the case of middle aged white hetrosexual men like myself, reverse discrimination. It's not an attractive truth, but it's not new, surprising, or limited to one group of people.
The fact people overestimate their abilities is supported by quite a bit of research. If you ask a person to rate their talents, charisma, physical attractiveness, driving skill or pretty much anything, they will fairly consistently rate themselves higher than other people will rate them on the same measures. The one group who are very realistic in their assessments are those who are clinically depressed.
That itself is pretty depressing - that the depressed are likely to be more right about their own abilities than anyone else.
But does that mean we then rate ourselves more accurately?
Comments
Your views as usual are inconsistent, we know if a Labour MP had been found to be doing what Jenrick has done, you'd be calling for them to lose the Whip.
What that means in terms of ideology now God knows.
It'd be so much better if people could say their side is a lesser shade of grey than the other, rather than that one is black or white. The latter is just implausible, the former will be mostly subjective but cases could at least be made.
Criticising Islam, critising the niqab, criticisng misogyny, criticising homophobia is not racism. Any more than criticising paedophile priests is racist. Consistency is not racist.
Therefore, a stitch up to keep Sinn Fein, the unabashedly nationalistic party, out of government may not end well for them.
(Incidentally I would perhaps characterise this more as the Tories, the Liberal Democrats and Labour coming together against the SNP. Which may yet happen.)
I have more respect for those who abstained.
https://www.ft.com/content/50c3b6dc-2d2f-4bb4-aa9b-b24493315140
Stuff about the National Space Council and the Space Committee and so on.
Not sure where you get your Midwest figures, because Biden seems to poll well there on what I see: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
https://twitter.com/ElectsWorld/status/1274675537546534913?s=20
The first of those means that, even outside the Single Market, a lot of firms are going to continue to shadow EU rules. In many cases, it's simply not going to be worth setting up separate production lines for home and export markets.
The second means that any extra hassle at the border is significant. The UK simply hasn't worked out how to make Dover-Calais work with the throughput it currently has with significant extra checks. If the government had been serious about no trade deal, or even loose trade deal, they are leaving it awfully late to sort out this fairly fundamental point.
Hence the "Freedom To Diverge Whenever We Like, But Not Just Yet, But It's Not An Extension" theory. It's absurd, and not good for the UK in the medium term, but when you eliminate the impossible...
I still remember Cameron making his pitch in the first debate in 2010 and stating that not everything Labour did was bad, and the good bits he'd keep.
Which was exasperating because while I was willing to vote Liberal Democrat I wasn't voting Green.
The question is, why should we allow a reduction in standards for no discernable advantage?
How many people know that ? How many people care ?
Many Canadian firms choose to shadow USA rules for their exports but the USA and Canada are not the same and do not have the same rules.
John O'Farrell said when he asked an Irish cousin what the difference was between the two parties, he got the answer, 'That's easy. It's the difference between shit and shite.'
The share of the U.S. population with a passport stood at 27 percent in 2007 and that has now increased to 42 percent. As impressive as recent growth has been, the share of passport holders still lags far behind other developed countries. In Canada, 66 percent of people had a passport in 2016 while in the UK, 76 percent of people in England and Wales have one.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/#57e38fed3c16
Even if you top the poll no one has a right to be in government if you fall short of majority, with or without natural allies, but it doesn't stop people being mad. I'm sure I recall Tories being apoplectic at the idea Brown might stay in office, but if he'd cobbled together a suitable alliance, that's that.
This does make me worry SF will indeed top the next poll though.
I've voted for them for the EU Parliament, which was an irrelevance, and at local level where they have sometimes campaigned smartly on local issues (Although their record in Brighton remains beyond pathetic). But is there a more shrill, useless and irrelevant voice in the Commons than Caroline Lucas?
Sayeeda Warsi says the Tories have an Islamophobia problem. I know you'll say she's talking nonsense but if I said a Labour Jewish Peer was making up anti-Semitism or exaggerating it, you would call me anti-Semitic (and you would have good grounds to argue as such).
You are without a doubt, the biggest hypocrite on this website - and the most boring to talk to because you are so closed minded. Mostly every other Tory I can talk to and find common ground with on some issues (with some other notable exceptions) but with you, you will defend the Tories and take the CCHQ line regardless of what they do.
Talking to you thus is a waste of my time and I will refrain in future. I can read the Daily Mail and the Telegraph to get an idea of your views and save myself some time. Good day.
But who will be the Liberal Democrats?
It is astonishing he is still in a job.
Worth remembering that the British public poll quite strongly to maintain or even tighten food production standards.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chlorinated-chicken-ban-public-support-us-uk-trade-deal-a9583446.html
Interestingly, the desire to maintain standards was stronger in the low income group. Perhaps because wealthier people can afford to buy the higher range stuff, and do.
I cannot see chlorinated chicken etc being a vote winner for the Tories. Neither public nor farmers want it.
"THeRE iS NO RaCISM iN tHe uK"
I recall a great Jon Stewart segment which had a clip of a literal Klansman, in robes, saying he had a lot of black friends (he was 'only' racist in the sense he was a miscegenist, he claimed). It was around the time of a story of a basketball team owner being recorded by his girlfriend angry she had brought a black person to a game, but not caring if she'd slept with them, apparently. The motto of the story being the range of racism from 'You can be friends with them, but not f*ck them, to you can f*ck them, just don't be seen with them'.
As for Thailand, it has done a lot to improve its treatment of chickens in recent years which is why it can export to the EU. Even the RSPCA has praised it.
The US is simply not willing to address the health and animal welfare concerns raised about its treatment of chickens, preferring to whine about protectionism and bully weak countries instead.
I hope the alleged suicide of the Paterson wife had nothing to do with Jenrick's antics.
But the number of people who actually care about food quality standards is rather less than those who want to posture about them.
BTW indirect discrimination also means that provisions impacting Muslims disproportionately impact people of South Asian and Middle Eastern decent, so can be racist as well as islamophobic. Similarly discrimination against Catholics in the UK has often been coded discrimination against Irish people.
The #BLM protests aren't helping him.
The only Trotskyite who changes their view when the party line changes is @HYUFD as far as I can see. Pretty much everyone else deviates from their party line at times.
If you have a leader who approves of clearly anti-semitic murals etc, and who is a serial rebel, don't be surprised if you end up with an endemic anti-semitism problem and a discipline problem.
If you have a leader who has been sacked for lying, conspires in a plan to beat up a journalist, and hands out contracts to sexual conquests, don't be surprised if you end up with an endemic sleaze problem.
She achieves a heck of a lot more as a lone voice than most of the make weights on the green benches put together.
No: they’ll negotiate a deal that lets us diverge if we want to in the future, but in the meantime lets us keep access to the single market for the cheap, cheap rate of (just pulling a number out of the air here you understand) £350million a week. This will be pushed as a great victory for Britain, because what’s the alternative? Throw half the UK supply chain under the bus because we haven’t got the port capacity to implement WTO rules?
Maybe this is all wrong & there’s a wonderful plan in place to make sure everything goes smoothly: I certainly hope so. The leaked agreements that have been reported in the press with blank pages marked "plan goes here" do not exactly inspire confidence though, do they?
I'm sure that he would respond that he has faced workplace racism because of that decision but in reality it wasn't.
Sayeeda Warsi is wrong. If it was just one person claiming Labour had a problem - and if that one person was an extremist themselves - then that'd be completely different. The fact that you can't see a difference between one extremist saying something on the Tory side and a hundred or more people saying it on the Labour side beggars belief.
As for taking the CCHQ line that is completely preposterous too. I opposed VEHEMENTLY the Tory government last year.
Of the top of the head I've disagreed recently with "the CCHQ line" on the following occasions recently:
1: I fundamentally opposed the idea of the abolition of trial by jury, said it was a deal-breaker and I'd oppose the government if it proceeded with that.
2: I have said repeatedly it is wrong that beer gardens are still shut and they should have been opened before indoor non-essential shops.
3: Prior to the furlough etc being announced I argued here that businesses were incapable of paying wages based on the support package proposed so far and something else needed to be done or businesses would inevitably have to sack their staff.
4: I supported the protest in Bristol that pulled down the slavers statue.
5: I said Boris should "take the knee" in front of Downing Street when this started.
6: I have repeatedly defended and supported Starmer for "taking the knee".
7: A couple of times I've said that Starmer won PMQs. Only once have I said Boris has against Starmer.
That's just off the top of my head. That's without considering my vehement opposition of Theresa May or her deal when that was the CCHQ line.
It is evolution in action. At this rate there will be less far-right, religious nut-jobs in a few months time.
Interesting use of the word "shrill" re. Caroline Lucas. Anyway I don't agree - often, though not always, she talks sense. Over the years, much of what she's argued for has ended up being adopted by one or both of the main parties.
I'm using the word because she gets so worked up all the time about matters she doesn't appear to fully understand, not because of her gender.
Focusing so much on the EU instead of electoral reform and the environment etc was bizarre.
I was surprised they stood down for so many seats for Labour in 2017 for nothing in return when labour had a less remain friendly and more opportunist position than 2019 then.
I think they will struggle to get more than 4% at the next GE like 2015 even if Starmer disappoints the left.
On the other hand they may be more likely to cooperate with Labour on a local level in areas like Derbyshire where the greens can win rural wards at a local level on a populist/nimby etc platform that Labour cannot win.
An absolute trouncing of Trump would be worth staying pall night for though.
The fact people overestimate their abilities is supported by quite a bit of research. If you ask a person to rate their talents, charisma, physical attractiveness, driving skill or pretty much anything, they will fairly consistently rate themselves higher than other people will rate them on the same measures. The one group who are very realistic in their assessments are those who are clinically depressed.
I also respected Corbyn for not endorsing as much cooperation, eg standing down against Lucas. She's pretty safe in that seat at the moment, but there's no reason Labour shouldn't stand against her.
Would you call that 'evolution in action?'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-30244339
There were others, but that to me was what summed up their failure. Like the Clintons, they demanded perfection so got nothing.
I agree though that perceptions can be wrong, and have been involved in some disciplinary proceedings where allegations of racism were made to fight performance management.
I don't really think that would happen, but a) It would be the Banterverse solution and b) With Boris presumably in charge of the final negotiations, I wouldn't be that shocked.