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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s time to take a Biden landslide seriously

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  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390

    I rarely disagree with you, but on this I do. I don't remember Jezza doing anything as clear as this, but even if he did the problem is that because of his baggage few people really believed his patriotism.

    Starmer's video is very impressive. I posted yesterday on his plans to win back the Red Wall, and said patriotism without nationalism would be a part of it. It's a long journey, but this is an impressive start.
    Sorry, I was being ironic.
    Apologies - too subtle for me!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited June 2020
    I think, as the Sky polling expert has just said, Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    @Mysticrose

    Hi Mystic

    I addressed a question to you towards the end of the previous thread about virus cases in Gloucestershire. Since I live close to Cheltenham it is a matter of importance as well as interest to me.

    Can you reply?

    Thanks

    PtP
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Absolute disaster emerging in the US. The UK is likely now heading in a similar direction.

    Why?

    This isn't the beach panic again, is it?

    We've been having episodes of hysteria over the disaster potential of sunbathing since April. It has made no difference to anything.

    Not sure if opening the pubs and restaurants will finally tip the situation over the edge, but I think the Government is right to roll the dice. The alternative is to be too frightened to do anything and stay in limbo until a vaccine turns up, which might be forever. That's not sustainable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    Count yourself lucky. I've got Philip Davies.
    I have to say, I've always been pretty fortunate that except for a brief period when Aidan Burley was my MP, I've always had MPs I could respect. Simon Thomas,* Mark Williams, Mark Harper, and now Amanda Milling.

    The irony being I don't think I ever voted for any of them apart from Milling.

    *yes, I know, but it only emerged later and he was a good MP at the time.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Dura_Ace said:

    I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    Steve "Brexit Hardman" Baker is the only tory I have any time for at all. I still would not vote for the fucker at gun point though.
    I think he is very much hard done by. He is no Francois.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited June 2020

    I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    You should worry: I've got Priti Patel. Wasn't keen on the Labour candidate last time, but I knew and rather liked his 2017 predecessor. The Green, a local councillor's, a determined chap as well.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354

    Polls released this week have him trailing in Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Arizona, N Carolina, Pennsylvania, Florida, Georgia – and Texas.... Both Betfair (fixed odds) and Paddy Power are offering 6/1 that Trump will win between 101-150 Electoral College votes, which is exactly where he’d end up if he lost the above nine states.

    If I've got this right you can get him below 150 without Georgia (or alternatively without NC), as long as Biden gets Texas:
    https://www.270towin.com/maps/zLgOb

    I had a go at doing it without Texas but it's tough:
    https://www.270towin.com/maps/9m9Z0

    So Trump below 150 is pretty near equivalent to "Biden wins TX".
    Trump is about 2/1 on for Texas. That's too short although I would still make him favorite - 6/4 on say?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I wonder if Trump could be like the 2015 Liberal Democrats.

    Everyone sees what the polls says but nobody can quite believe that its actually going to happen. The seat range of 10-19 was punted as a long shot bet for a disastrous night for the Lib Dems based upon the polls . . . but in the end it was a losing bet though not as everyone expected it would lose because they got more than 19. They managed to do even worse than the longshot failure punted.

    I wonder if Trump could surprise even more on the downside than we're thinking.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    So what is Starmerism?

    It seems to be the 2017 manifesto with the foreign policy aims of Ed mixed with the relative unity of Blair with the robustness of Brown

    We can't know, because he's come to the leadership in the middle of a huge crisis. There's very little scope for him to develop policy at this moment as it may be obsolete in five months. One of Cameron's problems was that having come up with a policy mix ('share the proceeds of growth') he was left floundering when the bad times hit and he needed to change it all.

    What does Starmer need to do, therefore?

    1) Provide a clear, consistent break with Corbyn, as Corbyn was a key part of the problem.

    2) Draw a line under the saga of Labour's Brexit policy (which let it not be forgotten, he was directly responsible for)

    3) Provide probing, intelligent opposition to make sure the government is held to account.

    4) Make sure he cannot be accused of making political capital out of the worst public health crisis in a hundred years

    5) Keep current Labour voters on board while ensuring he can reach out to non-voters.

    6) Look, sound and behave like a plausible Prime Minister - calm, dignified, unruffled and sensible.

    So how's he done so far?

    1) Long Bailey. Antisemitism. Praise for the Armed Forces. Mentions of national pride. Job done.

    2) We've left. End of conversation. Job also done.

    3) Performances in PMQs and with the media have generally been impressive. Johnson has been forced to get better quick (although he has) and the media are giving him a fair hearing. Comments are sensible and measured. Most people will have agreed with his assessments of Cummings and Jenrick, but he did not call for their resignation.

    4) Has offered to help the government, and supported many key measures. Admittedly, the offers have not been gratefully received, but he's doing the right thing and I think people appreciate that. He (and Sturgeon for the matter of that) were pitch perfect in their response to the news of Johnson's illness.

    5) Knelt for BLM protests, but condemned the statue toppling by saying there is a right way and a wrong way to protest (at the same time noting he would personally prefer the statue to have been moved).

    6) The rest feed into this.

    He's still behind Johnson on leader ratings. No shit, he's not the PM and Johnson is. The incumbent always has an advantage. But he's narrowed the gap substantially and if he continues like this, people will be willing to give him a hearing. That's all he can do.

    So far, so impressive. Again, not to say he will win - formidable barriers face him - but he is what Labour so desperately needed after Corbyn.
    ...and put into dramatic focus earlier in the week when we were starkly reminded how utterly useless his main rival would have been.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    You should worry: I've got Priti Patel. Wasn't;t keen on the Labour canbdidate last time, but I knew and rather liked his 2017 predecessor. The Green, a local councillor's, a determined chap as well.
    A good MP you've got. :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    David's bet is already in to 4/1

    There is perhaps more money to be made identifying the longshot Biden states?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    I wonder if Trump could be like the 2015 Liberal Democrats.

    Everyone sees what the polls says but nobody can quite believe that its actually going to happen. The seat range of 10-19 was punted as a long shot bet for a disastrous night for the Lib Dems based upon the polls . . . but in the end it was a losing bet though not as everyone expected it would lose because they got more than 19. They managed to do even worse than the longshot failure punted.

    I wonder if Trump could surprise even more on the downside than we're thinking.

    The LDs got 8% in 2015, even now the US poll average has Trump over 40%
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Dura_Ace said:

    I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    Steve "Brexit Hardman" Baker is the only tory I have any time for at all. I still would not vote for the fucker at gun point though.
    I think he is very much hard done by. He is no Francois.
    That bad?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    @Mysticrose

    Hi Mystic

    I addressed a question to you towards the end of the previous thread about virus cases in Gloucestershire. Since I live close to Cheltenham it is a matter of importance as well as interest to me.

    Can you reply?

    Thanks

    PtP

    I remember when there was a map going around showing huge spikes of cases in Gloucestershire, which people blamed on Cheltenham.

    It ended abruptly when I pointed out it was a population map, not a map of Covid cases, and not a very accurate one at that (it claimed Newent had 10,000 inhabitants when the total cannot be more than 8,000 on the most generous of estimates).

    Again, the fallacy of proof when it comes to internet conspiracy theories.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And in a different view none of that happens
  • JSpringJSpring Posts: 100
    A landslide for Biden in the modern sense (that is, somewhere around 350-400 electoral votes) is certainly possible. A landslide in the more classical sense (an FDR/Nixon/Reagan sweep of all but one or two states)? No, America is way too polarized for anything approaching that.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    Steve "Brexit Hardman" Baker is the only tory I have any time for at all. I still would not vote for the fucker at gun point though.
    I think he is very much hard done by. He is no Francois.
    That bad?
    As far as I can remember he was always polite and calm through the Brexit process. Not many politicians can say that, especially amongst those with strong and extreme positions (on both no deal and remain sides).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    I think, as the Sky polling expert has just said, Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    Spot on BigG. If it does go wrong, what many regard on here as fluff, Jenrick, Cummings etc., will come back to bite Boris hard.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    ydoethur said:

    @Mysticrose

    Hi Mystic

    I addressed a question to you towards the end of the previous thread about virus cases in Gloucestershire. Since I live close to Cheltenham it is a matter of importance as well as interest to me.

    Can you reply?

    Thanks

    PtP

    I remember when there was a map going around showing huge spikes of cases in Gloucestershire, which people blamed on Cheltenham.

    It ended abruptly when I pointed out it was a population map, not a map of Covid cases, and not a very accurate one at that (it claimed Newent had 10,000 inhabitants when the total cannot be more than 8,000 on the most generous of estimates).

    Again, the fallacy of proof when it comes to internet conspiracy theories.
    Well if you live where I do in Winchcombe, about five miles from the racecourse, it feels very safe. The only virus case I know of is my wife and she picked it up in London!

    Cheltenham itself feels fine too, but I wondered if someone knew something I didn't.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    I wonder if Trump could be like the 2015 Liberal Democrats.

    Everyone sees what the polls says but nobody can quite believe that its actually going to happen. The seat range of 10-19 was punted as a long shot bet for a disastrous night for the Lib Dems based upon the polls . . . but in the end it was a losing bet though not as everyone expected it would lose because they got more than 19. They managed to do even worse than the longshot failure punted.

    I wonder if Trump could surprise even more on the downside than we're thinking.

    As Mr Ed points out the polling is difficult and unreliable. I think that means the range of outcomes is very wide, from Trump win to Biden complete landslide. Trump opponents should treat it as a 50/50 matchup throughout.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ...and put into dramatic focus earlier in the week when we were starkly reminded how utterly useless his main rival would have been.

    Yes.

    One of the great advantages Starmer has is just how useless the Corbynites are.

    Long-Bailey, nuff said. Pidcock, heaven help us all. Cat Smith, even worse. Ian Lavery, still posturing with the integrity and ability of an idiot. Burgon, Sultana, Abbott, O'Mara...

    About the only really formidable Corbynite MPs are Macdonnell and Trickett, who are both around 70 and at the end of their careers. Macdonnell is also far from well, of course. Corbyn himself is also elderly. None of the three are likely to be in Parliament after the next election.

    That means he can present Corbynism as a spasm. An emotional spasm, to quote Labour's most potent actual Socialist. It is a phase that has passed and he will say, will not be returning.

    Of course, he is still much more left wing than Blair, as is the party he leads. But how often has the left lost because people dislike their policies, contrasted with people's disdain for their leadership?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    DavidL said:

    The US already has a much worse infection rate than us although a lower death rate. I wonder if the excess mortality figures might show an even worse figure.

    Since the wave off infection is happening later in the US than here then there is now more testing available, so they will identify more positive cases and appear to have a lower death rate for that reason alone. It also means they are identifying cases beefier they are hospitalised, and so there's a greater lag between an increase in cases and an increase in deaths - plus, with advances like the dexamethasone treatment the death rate should now be lower.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I am not convinced either of 'build build build' (depending what is meant by that exhortation I suppose) or of the need for a stimulus package. We need to be very careful with both. Hopefully the lessons from Brown's pointless VAT reduction have been noted.

    Hey, we are currently mired in scandal about property development. What should we do?

    Make a speech about building...
    Johnson's bricking it.
    But still won't render the Jenrick story unnewsworthy
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    I wonder if Trump could be like the 2015 Liberal Democrats.

    Everyone sees what the polls says but nobody can quite believe that its actually going to happen. The seat range of 10-19 was punted as a long shot bet for a disastrous night for the Lib Dems based upon the polls . . . but in the end it was a losing bet though not as everyone expected it would lose because they got more than 19. They managed to do even worse than the longshot failure punted.

    I wonder if Trump could surprise even more on the downside than we're thinking.

    As Mr Ed points out the polling is difficult and unreliable. I think that means the range of outcomes is very wide, from Trump win to Biden complete landslide. Trump opponents should treat it as a 50/50 matchup throughout.
    He correctly points out that the *state* polling can be a bit wonky. However the national polling has tended to be pretty good, and the state polling is currently pretty much the only favourable data point for Trump, since it's showing him doing several points better than in the swing states than nationally.

    I don't think it's really plausible that Trump has a bigger electoral college advantage than the few points we're seeing in the state polls as compared to the national ones - the votes have to pop up somewhere.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I do love the contrast with his predecessor.

    Did Corbyn ever record a message for Armed Forces' Day? If so I would be interested to see it.
    I've been saying, he'll win more votes than Corbyn just because he's not Corbyn.
    I'm interested. Not saying I will definitely vote for him, but I will listen to what he has to say when an election comes and consider voting for it. And as an active abstainer last time, I am perhaps the biggest prize of all from Labour's point of view.

    But more than that, somebody this calm, intelligent and thoughtful is somebody who, even I disagree with them politically, I can both imagine as PM and accept them as PM. With Corbyn, I just could not.

    There is unlikely to be a giant 'stop Labour' vote for Johnson or his successor to bank.
    Good: and I say that as someone who voted for Johnson last time.
    At the 2015 election is was expecting a Labour win, and was pretty relaxed about it, even if I didn’t vote for it: Milband was a grown-up.
    I was not so sanguine at the next two: May and even more Johnson were not my first choice as PMs, but Corbyn and his team were genuinely frightening.
    With SKS in charge I’m no longer afraid of a Labour government. This means I don’t have to vote for my local MP who is a pilock.
    Welcome back, I’m proud that we can start to win voters like you back.
    I’m not sure I’d go as far as voting Labour, but I am much more likely to abstain (otherwise known as voting Lib Dem).
    People should be free to vote for whichever option suits them best with every vote counting equally. But as we don't have a fair voting system the question is how your vote cam do the most damage to the Tories...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I am not convinced either of 'build build build' (depending what is meant by that exhortation I suppose) or of the need for a stimulus package. We need to be very careful with both. Hopefully the lessons from Brown's pointless VAT reduction have been noted.

    Hey, we are currently mired in scandal about property development. What should we do?

    Make a speech about building...
    Johnson's bricking it.
    But still won't render the Jenrick story unnewsworthy
    Although the Jenrick story provides guidance as to how to maximise your use of the forthcoming announcement.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    Arguably we've come off worst in Europe, due in at least a small part to a nationalistic refusal to co-operate with the EU.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited June 2020
    Off topic. The Wirecard collapse had passed me by but I've had an email to say that my two euro-denominated FairFX cards have been suspended. If I have interpreted the jargon correctly it sounds as though the funds are protected.

    Anyone care to hazard a guess as to how long the suspension might last - a week, a month, a year?
    Any comment on the situation from those in the finance industry would be much appreciated
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354

    DavidL said:

    The US already has a much worse infection rate than us although a lower death rate. I wonder if the excess mortality figures might show an even worse figure.

    Since the wave off infection is happening later in the US than here then there is now more testing available, so they will identify more positive cases and appear to have a lower death rate for that reason alone. It also means they are identifying cases beefier they are hospitalised, and so there's a greater lag between an increase in cases and an increase in deaths - plus, with advances like the dexamethasone treatment the death rate should now be lower.
    This is all perfectly correct but some of the numbers still beggar belief. I suspect they are classifying a lot of Covid deaths as pneumonia, flu, lung infections and the like, probably for political reasons.

    It certainly makes sense to look at excess deaths to check on the possibility.
  • My view on a Johnson victory is very simple. If the country is doing well his optimism and fun will mean he wins again.

    If it’s in a mess, he won’t.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    On topic, I backed Trump at under 200 ECVs at average odds of 8/3 with Paddypower 2 weeks ago.

    I agree there's value there and a landslide (in the electoral college) is possible.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    HYUFD said:
    IIRC his 1990 Act didn't help. Most people I know who have any knowledge of the Care sector say it's been undervalued for years.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    If you check out excess deaths I think you have to conclude the true number is far greater.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    I wonder if Trump could be like the 2015 Liberal Democrats.

    Everyone sees what the polls says but nobody can quite believe that its actually going to happen. The seat range of 10-19 was punted as a long shot bet for a disastrous night for the Lib Dems based upon the polls . . . but in the end it was a losing bet though not as everyone expected it would lose because they got more than 19. They managed to do even worse than the longshot failure punted.

    I wonder if Trump could surprise even more on the downside than we're thinking.

    He will get 40% of the vote regardless because Culture Wars.

    But, he might lose the electoral college by a huge margin.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    HYUFD said:
    IIRC his 1990 Act didn't help. Most people I know who have any knowledge of the Care sector say it's been undervalued for years.
    Surely a 1990 Act would have been Thatcher?

    Or did it come within the purview of the Treasury?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    HYUFD said:

    I wonder if Trump could be like the 2015 Liberal Democrats.

    Everyone sees what the polls says but nobody can quite believe that its actually going to happen. The seat range of 10-19 was punted as a long shot bet for a disastrous night for the Lib Dems based upon the polls . . . but in the end it was a losing bet though not as everyone expected it would lose because they got more than 19. They managed to do even worse than the longshot failure punted.

    I wonder if Trump could surprise even more on the downside than we're thinking.

    The LDs got 8% in 2015, even now the US poll average has Trump over 40%
    That is not a like for like comparison though is it?

    Both use fptp which distorts results very badly and differently according to conditions in each election boundaries and spread of voters. So for instance the LDs got seats with 8%. If trump were on 8% he would get no electoral college votes at all. Don't know the point where he goes to zero but suspect it is quite a high percentage. The sort of percentage that the LDs would win a bundle of seats.

    Consequently the comparison is utterly meaningless. It also says an awful lot about fptp both sides of the pond.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    Any "theory" yet on why Trump cancelled his weekend in New Jersey? To keep order in the federal capital seems like a lie, unless he is planning something completely batsh*t and Albert Pike-related.

    They may be considering how to respond to the recent loss of territory to General Virus. Can Trump pivot on masks and show leadership?

    But more likely they are discussing the Mary book, with regard to which they have asked the judge in Dutchess to act quickly, fearing it will soon be widely available. That's what happened with the Bolton book which was published by the same house, Simon and Schuster.

    image

    Note the assertion that "copies may be distributed to booksellers and media reviewers any day now". They are pooping themselves.

    One has to marvel at how the lawyers plead that extreme urgency is required, shortly after they submitted the application to the wrong court by accident. And that was after they had to refile because they didn't pay the $45 court fee.

    Sources tell me the book presents facts that introduce a new theme concerning Trump's psychohistory which, when it is revealed, will destroy the possibility of a second term...to put it mildly.

    Talking of New Jersey, yesterday I learnt that Kellyanne Conway is the granddaughter of mobster Jimmy "The Brute" DiNatale. She probably gets on well with Jared Kushner whose father Charles has done time for illegal campaign contributions and witness tampering. Trump uses "killer" as a term of praise.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    So what is Starmerism?

    It seems to be the 2017 manifesto with the foreign policy aims of Ed mixed with the relative unity of Blair with the robustness of Brown

    We can't know, because he's come to the leadership in the middle of a huge crisis. There's very little scope for him to develop policy at this moment as it may be obsolete in five months. One of Cameron's problems was that having come up with a policy mix ('share the proceeds of growth') he was left floundering when the bad times hit and he needed to change it all.

    What does Starmer need to do, therefore?

    1) Provide a clear, consistent break with Corbyn, as Corbyn was a key part of the problem.

    2) Draw a line under the saga of Labour's Brexit policy (which let it not be forgotten, he was directly responsible for)

    3) Provide probing, intelligent opposition to make sure the government is held to account.

    4) Make sure he cannot be accused of making political capital out of the worst public health crisis in a hundred years

    5) Keep current Labour voters on board while ensuring he can reach out to non-voters.

    6) Look, sound and behave like a plausible Prime Minister - calm, dignified, unruffled and sensible.

    So how's he done so far?

    1) Long Bailey. Antisemitism. Praise for the Armed Forces. Mentions of national pride. Job done.

    2) We've left. End of conversation. Job also done.

    3) Performances in PMQs and with the media have generally been impressive. Johnson has been forced to get better quick (although he has) and the media are giving him a fair hearing. Comments are sensible and measured. Most people will have agreed with his assessments of Cummings and Jenrick, but he did not call for their resignation.

    4) Has offered to help the government, and supported many key measures. Admittedly, the offers have not been gratefully received, but he's doing the right thing and I think people appreciate that. He (and Sturgeon for the matter of that) were pitch perfect in their response to the news of Johnson's illness.

    5) Knelt for BLM protests, but condemned the statue toppling by saying there is a right way and a wrong way to protest (at the same time noting he would personally prefer the statue to have been moved).

    6) The rest feed into this.

    He's still behind Johnson on leader ratings. No shit, he's not the PM and Johnson is. The incumbent always has an advantage. But he's narrowed the gap substantially and if he continues like this, people will be willing to give him a hearing. That's all he can do.

    So far, so impressive. Again, not to say he will win - formidable barriers face him - but he is what Labour so desperately needed after Corbyn.
    Great post.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Makes complete sense to move into Labour territory on economics. Should help hold onto their new supporters, and there's nowhere else for the low tax, laissez-faire capitalist vote to go.

    The political centre of the country is a little to the left of centre economically and a little to the right of centre on social issues, although that's arguably a crude way of representing the present situation.
    It might be the case that low tax laissez-faire capitalist politics only really works electorally in high-growth economies.

    Not anemic or schlerotic ones.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    edited June 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    I do agree though. "Bozo" casts veague negatives upon his character. Why bother when "liar" is punchier and a fact, or my preferred "Shagger". Difficicult to object to either when he was sacked for lying about an affair...
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
    As Bill Gates remarked a while back, when all the exam papers are in and finally marked, it is unlikely many countries will get an A+. Early indications are that NZ and Vietnam will be top of the class. The UK seems bound for mid-table.

    The US is heading for a fail.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I wonder if Trump could be like the 2015 Liberal Democrats.

    Everyone sees what the polls says but nobody can quite believe that its actually going to happen. The seat range of 10-19 was punted as a long shot bet for a disastrous night for the Lib Dems based upon the polls . . . but in the end it was a losing bet though not as everyone expected it would lose because they got more than 19. They managed to do even worse than the longshot failure punted.

    I wonder if Trump could surprise even more on the downside than we're thinking.

    He will get 40% of the vote regardless because Culture Wars.

    But, he might lose the electoral college by a huge margin.
    Indeed, like how the LDs got 8% of the vote but certainly not 8% of the seats in 2015.
  • I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    You should worry: I've got Priti Patel. Wasn't;t keen on the Labour canbdidate last time, but I knew and rather liked his 2017 predecessor. The Green, a local councillor's, a determined chap as well.
    A good MP you've got. :)
    This explains so much.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    This links to a very interesting article on respiratory viruses; the rhinoviruses seem to have been remarkably resilient to the effects of the lockdown:

    https://twitter.com/MackayIM/status/1276755248485486592
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Amazing how the Indy, that published the Maxine Peake story, seems to be implying that the rampant antisemitism in the party that Starmer is forced to confront was somehow a trap laid by the Tories. This issue goes well beyond the Labour Party, the media being one such place.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_xP said:
    Amazing how the Indy, that published the Maxine Peake story, seems to be implying that the rampant antisemitism in the party that Starmer is forced to confront was somehow a trap laid by the Tories.
    You mean Agent Jez wasn't a Tory infiltrator?
  • As for the other half of Cummings’ label, Starmer stubbornly refuses to play the Remainer part Johnson hoped and expected he would. Starmer has declined to join the SNP, Liberal Democrats, Scottish and Welsh governments and the Scottish Labour Party in calling for an extension to the transitional period beyond 31 December.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Nigelb said:

    This links to a very interesting article on respiratory viruses; the rhinoviruses seem to have been remarkably resilient to the effects of the lockdown:

    https://twitter.com/MackayIM/status/1276755248485486592

    Rhinoviruses are ok though, personally happy to live with most of those.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    HYUFD said:
    IIRC his 1990 Act didn't help. Most people I know who have any knowledge of the Care sector say it's been undervalued for years.
    It wasn't his act 29 June 1990 was the date it become law, 28th November 1990 is when he became PM.
  • Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
    As Bill Gates remarked a while back, when all the exam papers are in and finally marked, it is unlikely many countries will get an A+. Early indications are that NZ and Vietnam will be top of the class. The UK seems bound for mid-table.

    The US is heading for a fail.
    If the minute we can travel safely again Vietnam is not crawling with pandemic experts to find out how the bloody hell they managed so well despite every disadvantage of climate, geography, economy, demography and politics, then any enquiry will be meaningless.

    That's not to downplay the achievements of New Zealand, or Taiwan, or South Korea, but they're islands (de facto if not de jure in South Korea's case). Vietnam is not.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
    Great job , what are you on.
    If you were commenting on New Zealand you might have a case.
    However you seem blinded by believing Johnson , which one should always be careful of .
    As his moral compass with the truth has a bad history.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Doubtless someone will be along in a bit to blame this on BLM as well

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1276807054934659073
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
    As Bill Gates remarked a while back, when all the exam papers are in and finally marked, it is unlikely many countries will get an A+. Early indications are that NZ and Vietnam will be top of the class. The UK seems bound for mid-table.

    The US is heading for a fail.
    And the UK? Depending on one's temperament, you could either say that the UK has a very low borderline pass (there hasn't been a systemic collapse) or a very high borderline fail (lots more lives could have been saved).
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450

    Makes complete sense to move into Labour territory on economics. Should help hold onto their new supporters, and there's nowhere else for the low tax, laissez-faire capitalist vote to go.

    The political centre of the country is a little to the left of centre economically and a little to the right of centre on social issues, although that's arguably a crude way of representing the present situation.
    If they want to hold on the Red Wall they need to be much more small c conservative instead of the woke-appeasing Blair-lite they are adopting at the moment. Putting a copy of that picture of Starmer and Rayner taking the knee through every letterbox in those seats would be a good strategy but doubt they have the sense to see it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    I have Steve Baker as my MP.
    I do not want to have to vote for him again.

    You should worry: I've got Priti Patel. Wasn't;t keen on the Labour canbdidate last time, but I knew and rather liked his 2017 predecessor. The Green, a local councillor's, a determined chap as well.
    A good MP you've got. :)
    This explains so much.
    To be fair to Patel, she's 'the little girl with the curl'. When she's good, she can be very good, but when she's bad.....

    And yes I know the other version of the rhyme reads 'when she'd bad, she's very popular!'
  • https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1276609561722404866

    I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited June 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    This links to a very interesting article on respiratory viruses; the rhinoviruses seem to have been remarkably resilient to the effects of the lockdown:

    https://twitter.com/MackayIM/status/1276755248485486592

    Rhinoviruses are ok though, personally happy to live with most of those.
    Yes.
    There are dozens of them though, so I’d rather not live with them all. And like all such viruses, they can still be very unpleasant for some individuals.

    Worth reading the article in full, though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:
    IIRC his 1990 Act didn't help. Most people I know who have any knowledge of the Care sector say it's been undervalued for years.
    It wasn't his act 29 June 1990 was the date it become law, 28th November 1990 is when he became PM.
    Fair enough; he was in the Govt. at the time, of course.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
  • EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
    As Bill Gates remarked a while back, when all the exam papers are in and finally marked, it is unlikely many countries will get an A+. Early indications are that NZ and Vietnam will be top of the class. The UK seems bound for mid-table.

    The US is heading for a fail.
    If the minute we can travel safely again Vietnam is not crawling with pandemic experts to find out how the bloody hell they managed so well despite every disadvantage of climate, geography, economy, demography and politics, then any enquiry will be meaningless.

    That's not to downplay the achievements of New Zealand, or Taiwan, or South Korea, but they're islands (de facto if not de jure in South Korea's case). Vietnam is not.
    Thailand's not done so badly either.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1276609561722404866

    I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.

    I was wondering what you had against our only great living political cartoonist.

    Then the tweet loaded.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1276810994552053766
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
    That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
    As Bill Gates remarked a while back, when all the exam papers are in and finally marked, it is unlikely many countries will get an A+. Early indications are that NZ and Vietnam will be top of the class. The UK seems bound for mid-table.

    The US is heading for a fail.
    If the minute we can travel safely again Vietnam is not crawling with pandemic experts to find out how the bloody hell they managed so well despite every disadvantage of climate, geography, economy, demography and politics, then any enquiry will be meaningless.

    That's not to downplay the achievements of New Zealand, or Taiwan, or South Korea, but they're islands (de facto if not de jure in South Korea's case). Vietnam is not.
    Thailand's not done so badly either.
    True, and has now reopened, but Thailand has no border with China.

    When the first statistics came through from Vietnam, they were so good I assumed they were forged. But it doesn't look as though they were. It seems they genuinely have played an absolute blinder.

    And given where they are, and how many Chinese workers they had, and how vulnerable their transport networks are, that's little short of incredible.

    I have been wondering if it's because they all wear masks as standard due to pollution levels, but whatever it is we need to find out and put it straight into action if there's a next time.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it

    I hope sack means "remove the whip" not "remove from Shadow Cabinet".
  • EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it

    I hope sack means "remove the whip" not "remove from Shadow Cabinet".
    When will Johnson be sacking Jenrick and removing the Whip from him?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    edited June 2020
    Looking at the media chatter about GPS and "wrong type of satellite", does anyone know where this line came from?

    Is there any official mention of Oneweb and GPS?

    I can't see anything sourcing it to any Govt source. Had a little trip down the Graun rabbithole, and it just seems to be self-sourced.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:

    Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1276810994552053766

    The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.

    You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited June 2020
    MattW said:

    Looking at the media chatter about GPS and "wrong type of satellite", does anyone know where this line came from?

    I can't see anything sourcing it to any Govt source. Had a little trip down the Graun rabbithole, and it just seems to be self-sourced.

    I had the same issue, the satellites are clearly for communication purposes so I don't know where the idea for GPS (that led all the stories) came from.

    I'm told that in theory it's possible for the satellites to be used to piggyback on a GPS system but how much truth there is in that I don't know.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    The tricky thing is that I don't see how he keeps all his voters happy. If he keeps the wheels turning with a BEANO-type deal, he opens the door to Farage again. If he goes for a diamond-hard-Farage-proof Brexit, the economic situation could go horribly wrong.

    He's done a brilliant job of keeping "cake and eat it" in people's minds for so long. It probably helped that Northern Ireland (which was the first sign that the game was up) is so far away for most people. But I don't see how he continues to fool reality beyond December.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    edited June 2020

    https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1276609561722404866

    I really hope Matt will quietly fuck off now he's got no power on the front bench. With Milne, perhaps the worst Labour adviser ever.

    The Labour Party is a disgusting cesspit.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    eek said:

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
    That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
    True for most export markets surely?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Essentially the equivalent of the Tories, Labour and the Greens combining to keep the SNP out at Holyrood. Clearly SF have some...problematic...past and present positions for many but they still came top in first preference votes. But for the pandemic this would surely be being derided as an establishment stitch up?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1276810994552053766

    The Shinners are probably rubbing their hands with glee thinking of the next election.

    You wonder a bit whether this might be the end of Fianna Fail as a serious force as well. Getting their leader as Taoiseach is not a good deal if it pisses off all their voters.
    I’m aware of the historical genesis of FF and FG but I’ve never quite been able to get my head around what differentiates them in ideology without the Civil War context.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
    That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
    That's not a problem whatsoever. Why shouldn't what we sell to them meet their laws?

    Who cares whatsoever about that? If we sell to any country anywhere in the entire world we need to meet their laws and regulations - but we're not obliged to meet them domestically. That's the difference.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    edited June 2020
    Surely the only response left regarding America is an international travel ban. You can let your ladygarden breathe and not interfere in God's breath and that's fine. But you are banned from coming here with your plague
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    eek said:

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
    That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
    True for most export markets surely?
    True for all exports markets surely?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    eek said:

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
    That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
    That's not a problem whatsoever. Why shouldn't what we sell to them meet their laws?

    Who cares whatsoever about that? If we sell to any country anywhere in the entire world we need to meet their laws and regulations - but we're not obliged to meet them domestically. That's the difference.
    That's a good point but what about domestic laws that might give us (or them) an unfair advantage: state subsidies, workers rights, that sort of thing?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    ydoethur said:

    ...and put into dramatic focus earlier in the week when we were starkly reminded how utterly useless his main rival would have been.

    Yes.

    One of the great advantages Starmer has is just how useless the Corbynites are.

    Long-Bailey, nuff said. Pidcock, heaven help us all. Cat Smith, even worse. Ian Lavery, still posturing with the integrity and ability of an idiot. Burgon, Sultana, Abbott, O'Mara...

    About the only really formidable Corbynite MPs are Macdonnell and Trickett, who are both around 70 and at the end of their careers. Macdonnell is also far from well, of course. Corbyn himself is also elderly. None of the three are likely to be in Parliament after the next election.

    That means he can present Corbynism as a spasm. An emotional spasm, to quote Labour's most potent actual Socialist. It is a phase that has passed and he will say, will not be returning.

    Of course, he is still much more left wing than Blair, as is the party he leads. But how often has the left lost because people dislike their policies, contrasted with people's disdain for their leadership?
    Much of Corbynite anger seems to be focused on that ideas and policies they like are, or could be, quite popular, but people like Corbyn or Sultana are extremely bad at selling them to people under Corbynite leadership, whereas Starmer might well be able to.

    That is, they are angry because even when their ideas are not crap, they are.

    They could use more McDonnells, you need people who are somewhat formidible no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    ..
    MattW said:

    Looking at the media chatter about GPS and "wrong type of satellite", does anyone know where this line came from?

    Is there any official mention of Oneweb and GPS?

    I can't see anything sourcing it to any Govt source. Had a little trip down the Graun rabbithole, and it just seems to be self-sourced.

    There’s this:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/06/26/space-officials-warn-government-500m-satellite-push-could-fail/
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it

    I hope sack means "remove the whip" not "remove from Shadow Cabinet".
    When will Johnson be sacking Jenrick and removing the Whip from him?
    When he engages in a sustained campaign of antisemitism so awful it draws the ire of the EHRC perhaps?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    I know several very religious people, and I cannot fathom them objecting or supporting the use of masks on the basis of God designing our breathing systems. Do they wash themselves, take any medications at all? Do not pollute God's temple!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    Au contraire. The first consignment of cheap chicken will help his numbers. A subsequent and associated outbreak of salmonella will however, send them crashing again.
    Apart from anything else, how much cheaper can chicken get? You can buy a whole chicken for £3 in most supermarkets. Cheaper than an average pint in a pub. Once you allow for retail profit, marketing, UK distribution etc, the cost of the chicken itself is rock-bottom already. I am not convinced that to the average shopper the price would be any lower with chlorinated chicken.

    A 1.3 kg whole chicken retails at USD $4 in low cost stores: https://www.globalprice.info/en/?p=usa/food-prices-in-usa

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    eek said:

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
    That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
    That's not a problem whatsoever. Why shouldn't what we sell to them meet their laws?

    Who cares whatsoever about that? If we sell to any country anywhere in the entire world we need to meet their laws and regulations - but we're not obliged to meet them domestically. That's the difference.
    That's a good point but what about domestic laws that might give us (or them) an unfair advantage: state subsidies, workers rights, that sort of thing?
    None of those stop exports. We import tat from china and I think we'd all agree their policy on worker's rights leaves a lot to be desired.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    Regards the deal with the EU, what deal would Johnson have to bring back that would make his voters very angry? I assume some kind of locked in deal? How popular is No Deal these days?

    Anything that locks us into following EU laws without having a say in them would be 100% unacceptable to me.
    That's a problem because everything we sell to the EU will need to meet their laws and regulations and we no longer have any say in them.
    That's not a problem whatsoever. Why shouldn't what we sell to them meet their laws?

    Who cares whatsoever about that? If we sell to any country anywhere in the entire world we need to meet their laws and regulations - but we're not obliged to meet them domestically. That's the difference.
    That's a good point but what about domestic laws that might give us (or them) an unfair advantage: state subsidies, workers rights, that sort of thing?
    I believe in democracy.

    If we agree a fixed minimum level playing field that neither party can alter unilaterally (but either party can end the agreement) then that is fair.

    If we agree a dynamic level playing field that means they can change it at whim and we are obliged to follow it then that is utterly unacceptable.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    EHRC results should be out quite soon, Starmer has a lot of good will IMHO if he sacks the people that deserve it

    He should remove the whip from any MPs criticised in it. If that means Corbyn and his little helpers are thrown out of the party, so much the better.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I think, as the Sky polling experts has just, said Boris's recent announcements have been popular as is his optimism and the polling should see a substantial move to him if it succeeds, but less so if it goes wrong

    I do not see anyone on thos forum, Scott included, who would disagree with this polling expert

    He has the same problem as Trump in that regard.

    You can't troll reality. The virus doesn't care how clever or witty your speech is.

    If there is another spike, BoZo will suffer. If the schools don't open, BoZo will suffer.

    And Brexit rumbles on. If Nissan closes, BoZo will struggle to spin that as good news.

    If the chunnel shudders to a halt, a cheery speech will not help.

    The first consignment of chlorine chicken will not help his numbers.
    And you ranting and raving about "BoZo" does what exactly?

    Reality is Boris is nothing like Trump and has done a great job in squashing the virus in this country contrasted with what's happening in America. The UK and USA are not the same whatsoever and any pretensions of you trying to claim about "reality" is preposterous nonsense.
    If 43,000 dead is a "great job" I'd hate to see him fuck it up.
    With a novel pandemic like this a fuck up would be hundreds of thousands or more dead.

    43,000 dead isn't pleasant by any means but is comparable to eg the Hong Kong Flu.
    As Bill Gates remarked a while back, when all the exam papers are in and finally marked, it is unlikely many countries will get an A+. Early indications are that NZ and Vietnam will be top of the class. The UK seems bound for mid-table.

    The US is heading for a fail.
    If the minute we can travel safely again Vietnam is not crawling with pandemic experts to find out how the bloody hell they managed so well despite every disadvantage of climate, geography, economy, demography and politics, then any enquiry will be meaningless.

    That's not to downplay the achievements of New Zealand, or Taiwan, or South Korea, but they're islands (de facto if not de jure in South Korea's case). Vietnam is not.
    Thailand's not done so badly either.
    True, and has now reopened, but Thailand has no border with China.

    When the first statistics came through from Vietnam, they were so good I assumed they were forged. But it doesn't look as though they were. It seems they genuinely have played an absolute blinder.

    And given where they are, and how many Chinese workers they had, and how vulnerable their transport networks are, that's little short of incredible.

    I have been wondering if it's because they all wear masks as standard due to pollution levels, but whatever it is we need to find out and put it straight into action if there's a next time.
    Thailand's being very cautious about with whom it reopens borders, I'm still hoping to go at Christmas; it's a little bit more likely now, but apparently they don't trust us. Covid-19-wise, anyway!
This discussion has been closed.