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  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.


    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    Its quite clear from Black Lives Matter's campaign that the very last thing they want is for people to treat one another with respect and digmity.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.


    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    "I had no choice but to continue supporting lynchings by the police, didn't you see what they were doing to the statues?!"
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Sensible Republicans - of which there are some - should write off the 2016 presidential election and instead should work on two things:

    1. Ensuring the Trump Taint does as little damage as possible to the down-ticket elections, especially the Senate races, and

    2. Thinking long and hard about how the party can recover from disaster of nominating Trump in the first place. He's toxified the brand to a degree which is even greater than was obvious in 2016. It's not going to be easy to reverse that.

    Back in the real world, GOP senators are doing worse than Trump in many recent state polls.
    That's not at all surprising. A lot of Trump supporters are suspicious of their GOP Senators, and will not automatically vote for them.
    The whole reason Trump is president is because the "sensible Republicans" as Nabavi calls them are more toxic than he is. The idea you get rid of Trump and people will vote for GOP senators is for the birds.
    It probably doesn't do a huge amount with his base though, who have been suspicious of the Republican establishment. I think attacks like The Lincoln Project just reinforce that narrative for his supporters.


    Ps interesting polling from Michigan - new poll out has Biden only 1 point ahead. That is 2 polls recently with a +1/+2% lead for the Dems in Michigan whereas others have had double digit leads

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_biden-6761.html

    Trafalgar was the only one to get Michigan right for Trump back in 2016

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election#Michigan
    Details here

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1275048515408998402?s=20
    Why Trafalgar group was the most accurate pollster in 2016 and 2018 and may be again

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/11/10/pollster_who_got_it_right_in_2016_does_it_again_138621.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
    I thought their 2018 senate polling was strictly mediocre .
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.


    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    "I had no choice but to continue supporting lynchings by the police, didn't you see what they were doing to the statues?!"
    How many lynchings do the police carry out in this country then? Is it zero? Because I'm pretty sure it's zero.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    eadric said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    lol. QED
    Exactly.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    WHere is the boundary between terrorism and nuttiness.
    If you yell out "Allahu akbar" before commencing your crime does that automatically get you reclassified as a terrorist even if you're doing it because you're mentally disturbed ?
    Similiarly if you have a very hidden and secret love of ISIS but are white and go ahead with an atrocity even though it might be 'terror inspired', noone will actually guess it is ?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Sensible Republicans - of which there are some - should write off the 2016 presidential election and instead should work on two things:

    1. Ensuring the Trump Taint does as little damage as possible to the down-ticket elections, especially the Senate races, and

    2. Thinking long and hard about how the party can recover from disaster of nominating Trump in the first place. He's toxified the brand to a degree which is even greater than was obvious in 2016. It's not going to be easy to reverse that.

    Back in the real world, GOP senators are doing worse than Trump in many recent state polls.
    That's not at all surprising. A lot of Trump supporters are suspicious of their GOP Senators, and will not automatically vote for them.
    The whole reason Trump is president is because the "sensible Republicans" as Nabavi calls them are more toxic than he is. The idea you get rid of Trump and people will vote for GOP senators is for the birds.
    It probably doesn't do a huge amount with his base though, who have been suspicious of the Republican establishment. I think attacks like The Lincoln Project just reinforce that narrative for his supporters.


    Ps interesting polling from Michigan - new poll out has Biden only 1 point ahead. That is 2 polls recently with a +1/+2% lead for the Dems in Michigan whereas others have had double digit leads

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_biden-6761.html

    Trafalgar was the only one to get Michigan right for Trump back in 2016

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election#Michigan
    Details here

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1275048515408998402?s=20
    Why Trafalgar group was the most accurate pollster in 2016 and 2018 and may be again

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/11/10/pollster_who_got_it_right_in_2016_does_it_again_138621.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
    I thought their 2018 senate polling was strictly mediocre .
    Ok, finished the article. What a load of do-hikey. They predicted a 10 point win for Cruz in Texas, he won by 2.5. They predicted a Republican win in Nevada and Arizona. Both Dem wins.

    Their 2018 polling was not great.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Oh dear, the hard right are co-opting poor old George Orwell again. He'll be looking down with a face like thunder.
  • There is no magic money tree
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    lol. QED
    If you are against our form of 'anti-racism' you are by definition a racist. If you are ambivalent you are a racist. Non-committal = racist. demurring on some points = racist.

    And even if you agree completely with our doctrine, if you are white you are still a racist. Because you can NEVER UNDERSTAND.

    Orwell would be proud. He really would
    SILENCE IS VIOLENCE


    I mean, the Orwellian nature of the beast is quite overt. They don't even try to hide it
    I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    The terrorist suspect in Reading genuinely sounds like a very messed up individual. In past 18 months, tried to stab a security guard with a broken bottle, tried to blow up his own flat, and chucked a telly out the window.

    Which famous rock band is he in again?
    I had exactly the same thought - does that make me an evil person?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/Adamstoon1/status/1275025674475102214

    Does he ever manage to do a funny cartoon?
    All these people complaining about the time he’s taking to review the data and make a decision... would they rather he went with his gut feel?
    He will anyway Charles, as if there is one thing Johnson’s career demonstrates with brutal clarity it is that he can not grasp detail.
    One of the things I've wondered is whether May would have handled COVID better - details she does, and her cabinet was on average better than the current one - despite a well justified reputation for caution she could be decisive in emergencies - for example, Salisbury. We'll never know, but I sometimes wonder if her more scientific background might have resulted in more robust probing of the scientific advice - especially "the populace won't wear a lockdown" and "no point in closing the borders/quarantining arrivals".
    The problem with May, very slow to make decision and when made it will stick to it rigidly. Very Gordo. In this fast moving situation, you need to be smart and flexible.

    Cameron would have been the better. Despite the reputation for liking a chillax, he was always on top of his red box.
    Agree on Cameron; he could also do the "Father of the Nation make it all better" thing convincingly, which people needed in March.

    However, any alternative PM would have had to big advantages over BoJo. One is being around, physically and mentally in late February. That's when the decisions ought to have been taken; after that the UK was always going to be in catch up mode.

    The other is that Boris's biases- especially to libertarianism and optimism- led him up the garden path in this case. Even if he was following duff advice, the fact that it matched his prejudices must have affected his willingness to ask some pretty obvious questions.
    We tried a pessimistic and authoritarian PM and people didn't like her
    They did to start with, very much indeed. Much as they did Boris, who resembles her more and more.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    eadric said:

    This is a brilliant essay, deconstructing Wokeness as a cult, and rightly so: because it is.

    https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/cult-dynamics-wokeness/

    As the essay describes, it displays all the major characteristics of a cult, the only difference is that Wokeness is so much bigger than most cults, and therefore much more dangerous.

    In particular, Wokeness uses a concept - White Fragility - to reel people into the guilt by making them feel painfully guilty and inadequate, a crisis which can only be solved by joining the cult, accepting all its nostrums, and thereby gaining redemption. Which is what all successful cults do.

    ie White Fragility means you, as a white person, are racist. This racism, your racism, is systemic and invisible and does not have to be proved, it just exists. If you admit you are racist then of course you are evil, and the only way to save yourself is joining the Woke, and admitting sin. If you deny you are racist that is because you have White Fragility, and cannot see that you are racist, which makes you even MORE racist. So, again, you have to join the Woke to save yourself.

    It's fiendishly clever and seriously disturbing.

    Fascinating essay but unconvincing. I think we will find that Wokeness is easier to join, easier to navigate, easier to choose within, less centrally organised, less monetized and much much easier to leave than proper cults.

    In particular I have not noticed its rather well heeled adherents being prepared to pay a massive personal cost in terms of giving away all their wealth, sacrificing all their time, losing all their friends, being scorned by all right thinking people etc. In general it shares the usual characteristics of believing that a high price should be paid by somebody or other but not them, and that their personal treasure, position, privilege, job, education and opportunity is not going to be dished out wholesale to the great unwashed.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    eadric said:

    Oh so the terrorist might actually be a Christian then? Oh dear, racists on suicide watch

    He seems to have been quite ecumenical in his beliefs -

    "He allegedly claimed to have fought both for and against ISIS, though officials assessing him found he didn't subscribe to any ideology or belief system and instead had mental health issues."

    To be fair, ISIS is a bit of love/hate thing - https://archer.fandom.com/wiki/ISIS
    He'd have to be quite an unusual Christian if he has fought FOR ISIS, seeing as ISIS made a big thing of beheading and butchering.... < checks notes > any Christians they could find.
    I think it quite possible that he possesses more mind states than we have SeanTs around here....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Pulpstar said:

    WHere is the boundary between terrorism and nuttiness.
    If you yell out "Allahu akbar" before commencing your crime does that automatically get you reclassified as a terrorist even if you're doing it because you're mentally disturbed ?
    Similiarly if you have a very hidden and secret love of ISIS but are white and go ahead with an atrocity even though it might be 'terror inspired', noone will actually guess it is ?

    It's "Alan's Snackbar!"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    Heartbreaking article. We must do better on care homes if there is another wave.


    Why dementia and Covid are such a deadly combination
    Special report: Dementia and Alzheimer’s were the most common pre-existing conditions found among deaths involving coronavirus in April

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/dementia-covid-deadly-combination/

    Advanced dementia is horrendous. Covid19 is possibly the old man's friend, in that circumstance
    Agreed. It can almost be seen as a solution to our culture's pusillanimous and cowardly response to death which leaves so many existing but not living. One can only pray that their self awareness has gone to the point that it is only their carers that are suffering.
    The worst kind of dementia is when it is aggressively advanced, yet the sufferer still has moments of lucidity. The existential terror of those glimpses must be horrific: to sense your own personality dissolving.

    I think I'd rather drown in my own lung fluids, than drown in my own madness, but I'd rather have a whacking great lethal dose of heroin and cocaine before either occurrence.
    A lot of people with dementia are quite cheerful, and enjoy life certainly my late grandmother and still living Mother in Law do.

    When I visited my grandmother in her nursing home in Cheshire some years ago, she was in great spirits. Indeed she told me she was having a great time, and it was a pity she had to go home next week. On delicate probing, it seemed that she thought she was on holiday, and the nursing home a hotel. I see this amiable muddleheadedness amongst a number of my patients.

    Of course, it can be distressing too.
    Would you expect there to be a link between this "amiable" dementia and beforehand being in possession of a sunny rather than dark disposition?
    Sadly not. Sometimes it brings out previous personality, but both my grandmother and MiL were rather introverted and anxious, until dementia seemed to liberate them from that.

    I also have a patient, very devoted to her husband who was as meek as can be, but is now violent and angry, bruising her and threatening her with a kitchen knife. It can go either way.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    WHere is the boundary between terrorism and nuttiness.
    If you yell out "Allahu akbar" before commencing your crime does that automatically get you reclassified as a terrorist even if you're doing it because you're mentally disturbed ?
    Similiarly if you have a very hidden and secret love of ISIS but are white and go ahead with an atrocity even though it might be 'terror inspired', noone will actually guess it is ?

    It can be difficult to prove this sometimes...

    A former Uber driver, cleared of launching a sword attack on police outside Buckingham Palace, has been found guilty of plotting a terror attack just months after his release.

    https://news.sky.com/story/mohiussunnath-chowdhury-extremely-dangerous-jihadist-guilty-of-plotting-terror-attack-on-gay-pride-parade-11927763

    But it is why the authorities look through all the social media, all your web history, who you have associated with to try to get a picture of what was inspiring you.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited June 2020
    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Tories have crashed the economy in exactly the same way as Labour in 2008.

    Only this time they have the highest Covid death toll as well
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Malmesbury, stop this slander against Admiral Ackbar!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Sensible Republicans - of which there are some - should write off the 2016 presidential election and instead should work on two things:

    1. Ensuring the Trump Taint does as little damage as possible to the down-ticket elections, especially the Senate races, and

    2. Thinking long and hard about how the party can recover from disaster of nominating Trump in the first place. He's toxified the brand to a degree which is even greater than was obvious in 2016. It's not going to be easy to reverse that.

    Back in the real world, GOP senators are doing worse than Trump in many recent state polls.
    That's not at all surprising. A lot of Trump supporters are suspicious of their GOP Senators, and will not automatically vote for them.
    The whole reason Trump is president is because the "sensible Republicans" as Nabavi calls them are more toxic than he is. The idea you get rid of Trump and people will vote for GOP senators is for the birds.
    It probably doesn't do a huge amount with his base though, who have been suspicious of the Republican establishment. I think attacks like The Lincoln Project just reinforce that narrative for his supporters.


    Ps interesting polling from Michigan - new poll out has Biden only 1 point ahead. That is 2 polls recently with a +1/+2% lead for the Dems in Michigan whereas others have had double digit leads

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_biden-6761.html

    Trafalgar was the only one to get Michigan right for Trump back in 2016

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election#Michigan
    Details here

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1275048515408998402?s=20
    Why Trafalgar group was the most accurate pollster in 2016 and 2018 and may be again

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/11/10/pollster_who_got_it_right_in_2016_does_it_again_138621.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
    I thought their 2018 senate polling was strictly mediocre .
    They got Florida right, and Arizona wrong. Their other senate calls - like Montana and North Dakota - were very much in line with consensus, so I'm not sure you can read too much into their 2018 results.

    That being said, I really like some of the things they do - I like the way they try and identify voters who didn't vote last time, but might vote this time; and I also like the way they seek to identify answers driven by "social desirability".

    (For the record, I think the first factor will benefit the Dems in 2020, and the second the Republicans.)
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    Try using some critical thought and actually answer the question. Why is the universal message of anti-racism being cluttered up with Marxism and far-left dogma that can only ever appeal to a small sect?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on STIs in recent months - they must have fallen off a cliff.
    There is some hope that the "chain of transmission" of HIV may have been broken.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Calling something a cult is essentially an admission that you don't have any real coherent critique of it.
    TBF the linked "essay" is not short. The guy has churned out about 5000 words. But what it boils down to is he has taken the generic features of a cult - which are known and well documented - and crow barred in his caricatured projections of what "woke" means in the eyes of your typical thinking man's alt right pundit. The product is, imo, a work of suffocating tedium and the utmost banality. But perhaps I have high standards. Some might like it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Another shooting in the CHAZ / CHOP, seems a bit dangerous this Communist Utopia.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    Thought you could only catch that on a Thursday evening
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    Try using some critical thought and actually answer the question. Why is the universal message of anti-racism being cluttered up with Marxism and far-left dogma that can only ever appeal to a small sect?
    Marxist loons always try to hijack valid causes. That isn't to say the validity of the complaint is diminished because some trots hang onto its coat tails.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    Try using some critical thought and actually answer the question. Why is the universal message of anti-racism being cluttered up with Marxism and far-left dogma that can only ever appeal to a small sect?
    Marxist loons always try to hijack valid causes. That isn't to say the validity of the complaint is diminished because some trots hang onto its coat tails.
    Its the other way around. The "Marxist Loons" are the people who set up BLM in the first place, just like Extinction Rebellion. Its not a big secret, they are very open about it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited June 2020
    This statue actually looks aesthetically superior to the unremarkable efforts removed here, however I still agree with Bill.

    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1275069545812643840?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Just like Germany then. I thought copying them was always a good thing, no?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    Try using some critical thought and actually answer the question. Why is the universal message of anti-racism being cluttered up with Marxism and far-left dogma that can only ever appeal to a small sect?
    Marxist loons always try to hijack valid causes. That isn't to say the validity of the complaint is diminished because some trots hang onto its coat tails.
    So what you're trying to say is that the far left component of BLM etc. is 'just a few bad apples'?

    Which demands of theirs do you realistically see being achieved in the UK?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited June 2020

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    Try using some critical thought and actually answer the question. Why is the universal message of anti-racism being cluttered up with Marxism and far-left dogma that can only ever appeal to a small sect?
    Marxist loons always try to hijack valid causes. That isn't to say the validity of the complaint is diminished because some trots hang onto its coat tails.
    Its the other way around. The "Marxist Loons" are the people who set up BLM in the first place, just like Extinction Rebellion. Its not a big secret, they are very open about it.
    I was referring to the issues rather than the organisations.

    If you are correct in your assertion you have confirmed my statement.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Urquhart, it's German results, not methods, people want to copy*.

    See also healthcare.

    *Ahem.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Calling something a cult is essentially an admission that you don't have any real coherent critique of it.
    TBF the linked "essay" is not short. The guy has churned out about 5000 words. But what it boils down to is he has taken the generic features of a cult - which are known and well documented - and crow barred in his caricatured projections of what "woke" means in the eyes of your typical thinking man's alt right pundit. The product is, imo, a work of suffocating tedium and the utmost banality. But perhaps I have high standards. Some might like it.
    Black Lives Matter is not a cult. Its a Maoist revolutionary movement masquerading as a vehicle for equality for black people.

    You can see that in the target of its statue hits. Abe Lincoln, Ulyssses Grant, Winston Churchill, George Washington, Queen Victoria etc.

    Its wider agenda is there for everyone to see. No wonder many black people want nothing to do with it and its demonstrations are stuffed full of middle class whites
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    Mr. Urquhart, it's German results, not methods, people want to copy*.

    See also healthcare.

    *Ahem.

    In this case, I don't see the issue. Sure some people will try and put mickey mouse etc and it isn't perfect, but it doesn't seem like the craziest of plans and one that is used elsewhere.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Well, there is a job going as Head of Legal Services in the Falklands.

    If all else fails.....

    And my experience with sheep here in the Lakes should stand me in good stead. Plus I speak Spanish if Boris manages to fuck this up as well.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    dixiedean said:

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on STIs in recent months - they must have fallen off a cliff.
    There is some hope that the "chain of transmission" of HIV may have been broken.
    Wouldn't that breaking of the chain only apply to diseases which have a rather short infectious period within each patient? Surely with HIV all that happens (unfortunately) is that the disease takes a furlough, so to speak, and then gets to work again when lockdown is released?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Mr. Urquhart, it's German results, not methods, people want to copy*.

    See also healthcare.

    *Ahem.

    In this case, I don't see the issue. Sure some people will try and put mickey mouse etc and it isn't perfect, but it doesn't seem like the craziest of plans and one that is used elsewhere.
    After how many months without a pint at the pub who is going to refuse giving their name and address? :D
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    Try using some critical thought and actually answer the question. Why is the universal message of anti-racism being cluttered up with Marxism and far-left dogma that can only ever appeal to a small sect?
    Marxist loons always try to hijack valid causes. That isn't to say the validity of the complaint is diminished because some trots hang onto its coat tails.
    So what you're trying to say is that the far left component of BLM etc. is 'just a few bad apples'?

    Which demands of theirs do you realistically see being achieved in the UK?
    Not really. If the issue is worthy, it does not become unworthy because it has been hijacked by a bunch of trots. The issue remains worthy, the trots considerably less so.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    RobD said:

    Mr. Urquhart, it's German results, not methods, people want to copy*.

    See also healthcare.

    *Ahem.

    In this case, I don't see the issue. Sure some people will try and put mickey mouse etc and it isn't perfect, but it doesn't seem like the craziest of plans and one that is used elsewhere.
    After how many months without a pint at the pub who is going to refuse giving their name and address? :D
    Is no different from getting an ID check (no matter your age) in a US restaurant before ordering any alcoholic beverage. It really isn't a big deal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    I'm saying that racism is deeply ingrained and one of the main reasons people are so energized to smear and demonize "woke", to mis-characterize and weaponize it as an insult - or just very happily go along with those that do - is because they know this is the case and they are queasy about facing it. Which is a shame because the uncomfortable experience of facing it could, if done in the right way, accelerate us towards the colour blind future that most of us want to see realized one day.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on STIs in recent months - they must have fallen off a cliff.
    There is some hope that the "chain of transmission" of HIV may have been broken.
    Wouldn't that breaking of the chain only apply to diseases which have a rather short infectious period within each patient? Surely with HIV all that happens (unfortunately) is that the disease takes a furlough, so to speak, and then gets to work again when lockdown is released?
    I wondered that too, turns out you are most infectious just after catching it. You become less infectious on quite a short timescale.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    Try using some critical thought and actually answer the question. Why is the universal message of anti-racism being cluttered up with Marxism and far-left dogma that can only ever appeal to a small sect?
    Marxist loons always try to hijack valid causes. That isn't to say the validity of the complaint is diminished because some trots hang onto its coat tails.
    So what you're trying to say is that the far left component of BLM etc. is 'just a few bad apples'?

    Which demands of theirs do you realistically see being achieved in the UK?
    Prominent anti BLM commentators banned from Twitter!!
  • Alistair said:

    MrEd said:

    Sensible Republicans - of which there are some - should write off the 2016 presidential election and instead should work on two things:

    1. Ensuring the Trump Taint does as little damage as possible to the down-ticket elections, especially the Senate races, and

    2. Thinking long and hard about how the party can recover from disaster of nominating Trump in the first place. He's toxified the brand to a degree which is even greater than was obvious in 2016. It's not going to be easy to reverse that.

    Back in the real world, GOP senators are doing worse than Trump in many recent state polls.
    That's not at all surprising. A lot of Trump supporters are suspicious of their GOP Senators, and will not automatically vote for them.
    The whole reason Trump is president is because the "sensible Republicans" as Nabavi calls them are more toxic than he is. The idea you get rid of Trump and people will vote for GOP senators is for the birds.
    It probably doesn't do a huge amount with his base though, who have been suspicious of the Republican establishment. I think attacks like The Lincoln Project just reinforce that narrative for his supporters.


    Ps interesting polling from Michigan - new poll out has Biden only 1 point ahead. That is 2 polls recently with a +1/+2% lead for the Dems in Michigan whereas others have had double digit leads

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_biden-6761.html

    Trafalgar was the only one to get Michigan right for Trump back in 2016

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election#Michigan
    They also called Nevada for Trump by 5 points.
    Trump's actually had a couple of half-decent polls recently - North Carolina and now Michigan. Admittedly there was a dreadful Minnesota poll in between but maybe there are some grounds for thinking BLM, the Seattle Anarchists and wilful destruction of statues have had some effect.

    He still needs to win over some independents. His core base is a rock-solid 40% but that doesn't get him over the line. The Economy is crucial, but that is linked to C-19 and unless he gets very lucky that doesn't look like being over by November.
    PtP - I'm not sure that Covid-19 has to be over as such for Trump to win in early November. Electorates in general, including the American version are very forgiving or should I say responsive to good news and if the Oxford/AstraZenica vaccine proves to be effective over the next 3 months as seems distinctly possible, likely even, then a huge vaccination program in the U.S. is likely to be announced and even if this has not even started by polling day, the American nation will engage in an enormous collective sigh of relief and, guess what, Trump will wallow in every last bit of reflected glory going. From what I have read recently, this vaccine is already being produced in vast quantities in readiness.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    With respect why dictate to another poster what they watch and read

    And as far as I know Guido Fawkes is not subscription
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on STIs in recent months - they must have fallen off a cliff.
    There is some hope that the "chain of transmission" of HIV may have been broken.
    Wouldn't that breaking of the chain only apply to diseases which have a rather short infectious period within each patient? Surely with HIV all that happens (unfortunately) is that the disease takes a furlough, so to speak, and then gets to work again when lockdown is released?
    Perhaps. I was merely relating a conversation I had with a medical professional friend who works in the area. I am by no stretch knowledgeable enough to answer.
    And maybe wasn't enough to fully grasp their meaning...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on STIs in recent months - they must have fallen off a cliff.
    There is some hope that the "chain of transmission" of HIV may have been broken.
    Wouldn't that breaking of the chain only apply to diseases which have a rather short infectious period within each patient? Surely with HIV all that happens (unfortunately) is that the disease takes a furlough, so to speak, and then gets to work again when lockdown is released?
    I wondered that too, turns out you are most infectious just after catching it. You become less infectious on quite a short timescale.
    Ah, thank you, that makes good sense - not a complete break perhaps but a very useful reduction in rate of transmission.

    I suppose it might be enough for a complete break in many cases if this means that the patient becomes aware of the infection before the next legover (or whatever is fancied).
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Tories have crashed the economy in exactly the same way as Labour in 2008.

    Only this time they have the highest Covid death toll as well
    Not true in either comment

    Fact Check

    Covid has crashed the world's economies

    And the UK does not have the highest death toll
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on STIs in recent months - they must have fallen off a cliff.
    There is some hope that the "chain of transmission" of HIV may have been broken.
    Wouldn't that breaking of the chain only apply to diseases which have a rather short infectious period within each patient? Surely with HIV all that happens (unfortunately) is that the disease takes a furlough, so to speak, and then gets to work again when lockdown is released?
    I wondered that too, turns out you are most infectious just after catching it. You become less infectious on quite a short timescale.
    Ah, thank you, that makes good sense - not a complete break perhaps but a very useful reduction in rate of transmission.

    I suppose it might be enough for a complete break in many cases if this means that the patient becomes aware of the infection before the next legover (or whatever is fancied).
    Here's a link (forgot to add it to the previous post):

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/13/covid-19-crisis-raises-hopes-of-end-to-uk-transmission-of-hiv
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    Heartbreaking article. We must do better on care homes if there is another wave.


    Why dementia and Covid are such a deadly combination
    Special report: Dementia and Alzheimer’s were the most common pre-existing conditions found among deaths involving coronavirus in April

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/dementia-covid-deadly-combination/

    Advanced dementia is horrendous. Covid19 is possibly the old man's friend, in that circumstance
    Agreed. It can almost be seen as a solution to our culture's pusillanimous and cowardly response to death which leaves so many existing but not living. One can only pray that their self awareness has gone to the point that it is only their carers that are suffering.
    The worst kind of dementia is when it is aggressively advanced, yet the sufferer still has moments of lucidity. The existential terror of those glimpses must be horrific: to sense your own personality dissolving.

    I think I'd rather drown in my own lung fluids, than drown in my own madness, but I'd rather have a whacking great lethal dose of heroin and cocaine before either occurrence.
    A lot of people with dementia are quite cheerful, and enjoy life certainly my late grandmother and still living Mother in Law do.

    When I visited my grandmother in her nursing home in Cheshire some years ago, she was in great spirits. Indeed she told me she was having a great time, and it was a pity she had to go home next week. On delicate probing, it seemed that she thought she was on holiday, and the nursing home a hotel. I see this amiable muddleheadedness amongst a number of my patients.

    Of course, it can be distressing too.
    Would you expect there to be a link between this "amiable" dementia and beforehand being in possession of a sunny rather than dark disposition?
    Sadly not. Sometimes it brings out previous personality, but both my grandmother and MiL were rather introverted and anxious, until dementia seemed to liberate them from that.

    I also have a patient, very devoted to her husband who was as meek as can be, but is now violent and angry, bruising her and threatening her with a kitchen knife. It can go either way.
    Having no professional expertise, but from personal experience of my mother and then discussing it with others, the anger element seems to be from the inability of being able to reconcile what is being experienced with the logic of what must be. I assume once the dementia has gone past this point that conflict disappears.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    Scott_xP said:
    Just like Germany then. I thought copying them was always a good thing, no?
    It's exactly the low-tech approach that other countries are using for successful contact tracing. Instead of the automatic sneering we ought to be applauding the government for doing what works.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited June 2020

    Mr Johnson is also expected to announce a reduction in the 2m social distancing rule to 1m, with some mitigating measures.

    BBC News - Coronavirus: PM to announce on Tuesday if pubs can reopen
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53129845

    The dilemma Johnson faces is that those situations that need to reduce social distancing to have any chance of surviving (pubs, restaurants, sports venues) are the very situations where reducing social distancing is likely to cause an uptick in infections and send R back over 1.

    I don't envy him the decision. Get it wrong and we get a second wave or kill off the hospitality industry. If only he hadn't dithered about at the beginning we might be closer to where most of the rest of Europe is right now.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    After the recent changes allowing couples to have overnight stays, there might now be more cases of the clap than Covid.....
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on STIs in recent months - they must have fallen off a cliff.
    There is some hope that the "chain of transmission" of HIV may have been broken.
    Wouldn't that breaking of the chain only apply to diseases which have a rather short infectious period within each patient? Surely with HIV all that happens (unfortunately) is that the disease takes a furlough, so to speak, and then gets to work again when lockdown is released?
    Perhaps. I was merely relating a conversation I had with a medical professional friend who works in the area. I am by no stretch knowledgeable enough to answer.
    And maybe wasn't enough to fully grasp their meaning...
    Thank you. RoBD has come up with something, as you will have seen.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Just like Germany then. I thought copying them was always a good thing, no?
    It's exactly the low-tech approach that other countries are using for successful contact tracing. Instead of the automatic sneering we ought to be applauding the government for doing what works.
    Its just another example of the media reaction during this crisis. Why don't you copy South Korea, two weeks later, oh no we can't copy that approach, what about our privacy. We should copy Germany, two weeks later, oh no you can't use private labs / contractors for testing.

    That isn't to say the government haven't screwed things up (as I have pointed out repeatedly), but the media kneejerk reaction to every idea is immediately that has to be a shit / stupid.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    I'm saying that racism is deeply ingrained and one of the main reasons people are so energized to smear and demonize "woke", to mis-characterize and weaponize it as an insult - or just very happily go along with those that do - is because they know this is the case and they are queasy about facing it. Which is a shame because the uncomfortable experience of facing it could, if done in the right way, accelerate us towards the colour blind future that most of us want to see realized one day.
    Can you define 'facing it'? Because I have no problem whatsoever talking about things like innate and societal bias where the evidence is clear and the solutions demanded are reasonable and practical. I love history - the darker the better, in most cases - so let's get all of it out there in the public eye, although again it can't be told just from one single perspective, whether that's woke or unwoke.

    That's what I understand by 'facing it'. I'm very far from convinced that that's what most people on the woke side mean by it. I genuinely don't even know if they have an official list of demands, who wrote it, what validity it has, etc.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    With respect why dictate to another poster what they watch and read

    And as far as I know Guido Fawkes is not subscription
    If you were to tell me to get off PB and do some work, I wouldn't be offended. In fact you are right, it is time I did do some work. Thanks for the advice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
    It is fascinating how it is fizzling out here...where as in the US, it is Corona PARTTTTTIEEEE time, especially in Southern states where it is warm.

    I think there is a lot more to this that we don't know / have wrong based upon presumption of flu like transmission.

    We get examples and counter-examples of transmission e.g. we have seen today a tennis player passing it on with a simple quick embrace (outdoors). Protesters were closer and coming into contact with one another for many hours.

    It is unclear if the US, protests have caused the spike or the loosening of the lockdown or both. There is mixed signals.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Tories have crashed the economy in exactly the same way as Labour in 2008.

    Only this time they have the highest Covid death toll as well
    Not true in either comment

    Fact Check

    Covid has crashed the world's economies

    And the UK does not have the highest death toll
    And back in 2008 the financial crisis hit the entire world, as for death count it probably depends on how you measure it (although I doubt we are top for any sane criteria).
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Scott_xP said:
    What is wrong with journalists and others who attack every attempt to assist the economy

    It is just sad
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Scott_xP said:
    What is wrong with journalists and others who attack every attempt to assist the economy

    It is just sad
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    I'm saying that racism is deeply ingrained and one of the main reasons people are so energized to smear and demonize "woke", to mis-characterize and weaponize it as an insult - or just very happily go along with those that do - is because they know this is the case and they are queasy about facing it. Which is a shame because the uncomfortable experience of facing it could, if done in the right way, accelerate us towards the colour blind future that most of us want to see realized one day.

    We want to counter woke because it makes assumptions that aren't based on fact.

    You have produced little to no evidence to actually show 'deeply ingrained' racism in our society. 50 years ago you would have had a strong case. No you have a very weak case.

    There is also a stack of evidence against you. Discrimination is illegal in law, race hate speech is illegal in law. Some of the most powerful positions in our society are held by people from ethnic minorities with the total and full consent of the British people.

    Deeply ingrained racism just isn;t there any more.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
    It is fascinating how it is fizzling out here...where as in the US, it is Corona PARTTTTTIEEEE time, especially in Southern states where it is warm.

    I think there is a lot more to this that we don't know / have wrong based upon presumption of flu transmission.
    Population demographics? Obese people much more susceptible? More processed meat in the US?

    Would explain the vast difference between Europe and the US.

    Just two possible theories. Most likely, many separate factors are at play.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Calling something a cult is essentially an admission that you don't have any real coherent critique of it.
    TBF the linked "essay" is not short. The guy has churned out about 5000 words. But what it boils down to is he has taken the generic features of a cult - which are known and well documented - and crow barred in his caricatured projections of what "woke" means in the eyes of your typical thinking man's alt right pundit. The product is, imo, a work of suffocating tedium and the utmost banality. But perhaps I have high standards. Some might like it.
    Black Lives Matter is not a cult. Its a Maoist revolutionary movement masquerading as a vehicle for equality for black people.

    You can see that in the target of its statue hits. Abe Lincoln, Ulyssses Grant, Winston Churchill, George Washington, Queen Victoria etc.

    Its wider agenda is there for everyone to see. No wonder many black people want nothing to do with it and its demonstrations are stuffed full of middle class whites
    I view BLM as an anti-racist activist group, first and foremost, with a patina of faux intellectual marxism for those who like that sort of thing. But I've never hung out with them so I could be wrong. Sounds like you have spent quite a bit of time with them, going to some of their events, talking face to face, all of that, so by all means you stick to your perceptions.

    But it was "woke" I was talking about. Here, I do know people and believe me it's no cult. We're forever squabbling for one thing. There's no mono-view at all.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Mr Blue.

    Try to get out more, watch less Fox News, unsubscribe from Guido Fawkes, don't read Toby Young's column. You'll feel much happier.

    With respect why dictate to another poster what they watch and read

    And as far as I know Guido Fawkes is not subscription
    If you were to tell me to get off PB and do some work, I wouldn't be offended. In fact you are right, it is time I did do some work. Thanks for the advice.
    I did not tell you to do that and have never suggested that to any poster to be fair
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited June 2020

    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
    It is fascinating how it is fizzling out here...where as in the US, it is Corona PARTTTTTIEEEE time, especially in Southern states where it is warm.
    Surely it's also "fizzling out" in the U.S. too, especially in states such as NY, NJ and Mass which were worst affected in the early days, before the virus spread to the mid-west and west coast. Plus their death rate is very much lower than ours.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    That isn't to say the government haven't screwed things up (as I have pointed out repeatedly), but the media kneejerk reaction to every idea is immediately that has to be a shit / stupid.

    It is a far better idea than the "app", as it is simple, cheap, and everybody can take part.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
    It is fascinating how it is fizzling out here...where as in the US, it is Corona PARTTTTTIEEEE time, especially in Southern states where it is warm.
    Surely it's also fizzling out in the U.S. in states such as NY, NJ and Mass which were worst affected in the early days, before the virus spread to the mid-west and west coast. Plus their death rate is very much lower than ours.
    Yes, the NYC it has fizzled out. But many of the states who appeared to have done very well on the West Coast (and it was there just as early as NY), now being hit really hard.

    As I have said before, it is as if you hit 20% of your population having got it and then transmission becomes so much harder it fizzles out even when people breaking lockdown e.g. NYC / London.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    Of course you can do that but why would you
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    I'm saying that racism is deeply ingrained and one of the main reasons people are so energized to smear and demonize "woke", to mis-characterize and weaponize it as an insult - or just very happily go along with those that do - is because they know this is the case and they are queasy about facing it. Which is a shame because the uncomfortable experience of facing it could, if done in the right way, accelerate us towards the colour blind future that most of us want to see realized one day.

    We want to counter woke because it makes assumptions that aren't based on fact.

    You have produced little to no evidence to actually show 'deeply ingrained' racism in our society. 50 years ago you would have had a strong case. No you have a very weak case.

    There is also a stack of evidence against you. Discrimination is illegal in law, race hate speech is illegal in law. Some of the most powerful positions in our society are held by people from ethnic minorities with the total and full consent of the British people.

    Deeply ingrained racism just isn;t there any more.
    Naive
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    Pubs / Restaurants could always ask for some ID.

    Also, I am hoping most normal people aren't total bell ends and if they do sit in a place where somebody has covid they would like to be contacted so they can get tested.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    Exactly. It doesn't have to be 100% effective.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    You don't have to worry about the sensible majority, its the stupid minority that will cause problems.

    Over the years I have had to sign off many, many Hazardous Waste Consignment notes, which are a legal document reported to the Environment Agency/Sepa and Natural Resources Wales. They were purported to be consigned by Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Hilarious...not!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    Of course you can do that but why would you
    I wouldn't, but I bet you know some who would. I do.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Seems like UKIP living up to their reputation of the party of fruitcakes , loonies and closet racists....Leader appears to tick all 3 boxes.

    In an online CV posted last summer, Mr Vachha listed an extensive list of hobbies which included computer programming, 'Nazi Germany', growing 'ultra-hot' chillies, travelling int he Himalayas and the 'Belgian Congo holocaust'.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8447639/Ukip-picks-tax-consultant-lists-Nazi-Germany-hobbies-new-leader.html

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
    It is fascinating how it is fizzling out here...where as in the US, it is Corona PARTTTTTIEEEE time, especially in Southern states where it is warm.
    Surely it's also fizzling out in the U.S. in states such as NY, NJ and Mass which were worst affected in the early days, before the virus spread to the mid-west and west coast. Plus their death rate is very much lower than ours.
    Yes, the NYC it has fizzled out. But many of the states who appeared to have done very well on the West Coast (and it was there just as early as NY), now being hit really hard.

    As I have said before, it is as if you hit 20% of your population having got it and then transmission becomes so much harder it fizzles out even when people breaking lockdown e.g. NYC / London.
    Great analysis.

    That does indeed seem to be the case.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    You don't have to worry about the sensible majority, its the stupid minority that will cause problems.

    Over the years I have had to sign off many, many Hazardous Waste Consignment notes, which are a legal document reported to the Environment Agency/Sepa and Natural Resources Wales. They were purported to be consigned by Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Hilarious...not!
    No ID, no drinkie...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    Of course you can do that but why would you
    I wouldn't, but I bet you know some who would. I do.
    No - I honestly do not
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Asking for ID in pubs seems a good idea to me and I'd expect that most people will be happy enough with that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Also, aren't a lot of chain pubs / restaurants going to make you use apps to order, so they have info on you already. And you will have to pay with a card, so again not hard to get details if some tw@t has put some crap down on the form.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    eadric said:

    This is a brilliant essay, deconstructing Wokeness as a cult, and rightly so: because it is.

    https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/cult-dynamics-wokeness/

    As the essay describes, it displays all the major characteristics of a cult, the only difference is that Wokeness is so much bigger than most cults, and therefore much more dangerous.

    In particular, Wokeness uses a concept - White Fragility - to reel people into the guilt by making them feel painfully guilty and inadequate, a crisis which can only be solved by joining the cult, accepting all its nostrums, and thereby gaining redemption. Which is what all successful cults do.

    ie White Fragility means you, as a white person, are racist. This racism, your racism, is systemic and invisible and does not have to be proved, it just exists. If you admit you are racist then of course you are evil, and the only way to save yourself is joining the Woke, and admitting sin. If you deny you are racist that is because you have White Fragility, and cannot see that you are racist, which makes you even MORE racist. So, again, you have to join the Woke to save yourself.

    It's fiendishly clever and seriously disturbing.

    Chapo Trap House recently critiqued White Fragility from a leftist materialist perspective. They focus on the background of the author as somebody who is paid by large corporations to come and give implicit bias training, which (they claim) the evidence shows is ineffective, and say the true reason for it is to reduce the corporation's liability, and to potentially provide ammunition if they want to fire people. They talk about how the book is essentially a sales pitch to affluent liberals to keep paying for courses like the author's as a kind of temporary absolution- a bitter medicine that you know works because it's painful, but ultimately doesn't actually do anything to help minorities. They say that on the contrary, real anti-racist work that actually helps people should feel good.

    I found it a lot more convincing than your hysteria.
    That's interesting. Hadn't come across that.

    You are not too enamoured with "affluent white liberals", I sense.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    You don't have to worry about the sensible majority, its the stupid minority that will cause problems.

    Over the years I have had to sign off many, many Hazardous Waste Consignment notes, which are a legal document reported to the Environment Agency/Sepa and Natural Resources Wales. They were purported to be consigned by Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Hilarious...not!
    No ID, no drinkie...
    Good luck with that that in some down town after hours lock-in joint
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    edited June 2020

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    You don't have to worry about the sensible majority, its the stupid minority that will cause problems.

    Over the years I have had to sign off many, many Hazardous Waste Consignment notes, which are a legal document reported to the Environment Agency/Sepa and Natural Resources Wales. They were purported to be consigned by Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Hilarious...not!
    I've no doubt some idiots will do things like that, but I'm fairly confident it will beat the "app" on adoption and effectiveness at tracing people in premises.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    Heartbreaking article. We must do better on care homes if there is another wave.


    Why dementia and Covid are such a deadly combination
    Special report: Dementia and Alzheimer’s were the most common pre-existing conditions found among deaths involving coronavirus in April

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/dementia-covid-deadly-combination/

    Advanced dementia is horrendous. Covid19 is possibly the old man's friend, in that circumstance
    Agreed. It can almost be seen as a solution to our culture's pusillanimous and cowardly response to death which leaves so many existing but not living. One can only pray that their self awareness has gone to the point that it is only their carers that are suffering.
    The worst kind of dementia is when it is aggressively advanced, yet the sufferer still has moments of lucidity. The existential terror of those glimpses must be horrific: to sense your own personality dissolving.

    I think I'd rather drown in my own lung fluids, than drown in my own madness, but I'd rather have a whacking great lethal dose of heroin and cocaine before either occurrence.
    A lot of people with dementia are quite cheerful, and enjoy life certainly my late grandmother and still living Mother in Law do.

    When I visited my grandmother in her nursing home in Cheshire some years ago, she was in great spirits. Indeed she told me she was having a great time, and it was a pity she had to go home next week. On delicate probing, it seemed that she thought she was on holiday, and the nursing home a hotel. I see this amiable muddleheadedness amongst a number of my patients.

    Of course, it can be distressing too.
    Would you expect there to be a link between this "amiable" dementia and beforehand being in possession of a sunny rather than dark disposition?
    Sadly not. Sometimes it brings out previous personality, but both my grandmother and MiL were rather introverted and anxious, until dementia seemed to liberate them from that.

    I also have a patient, very devoted to her husband who was as meek as can be, but is now violent and angry, bruising her and threatening her with a kitchen knife. It can go either way.
    Ah OK thanks. Don't mind that answer actually since I don't have a particularly sunny disposition.

    Especially when people start opining that "wokeism" is a greater evil than racism.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    You don't have to worry about the sensible majority, its the stupid minority that will cause problems.

    Over the years I have had to sign off many, many Hazardous Waste Consignment notes, which are a legal document reported to the Environment Agency/Sepa and Natural Resources Wales. They were purported to be consigned by Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Hilarious...not!
    No ID, no drinkie...
    Good luck with that that in some down town after hours lock-in joint
    You almost sound as if you want this to fail
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
    Weekend reporting
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    You don't have to worry about the sensible majority, its the stupid minority that will cause problems.

    Over the years I have had to sign off many, many Hazardous Waste Consignment notes, which are a legal document reported to the Environment Agency/Sepa and Natural Resources Wales. They were purported to be consigned by Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Hilarious...not!
    No ID, no drinkie...
    Good luck with that that in some down town after hours lock-in joint
    That's like worrying that people organising illegal raves aren't taking names and numbers....This is about the majority.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    But most people won't do that, because most people are not idiots and want thngs like contact tracing to work.
    You don't have to worry about the sensible majority, its the stupid minority that will cause problems.

    Over the years I have had to sign off many, many Hazardous Waste Consignment notes, which are a legal document reported to the Environment Agency/Sepa and Natural Resources Wales. They were purported to be consigned by Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Hilarious...not!
    No ID, no drinkie...
    Good luck with that that in some down town after hours lock-in joint
    The point is it doesn't have to be effective in absolutely all scenarios.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    It's fizzling out, isn't it?

    The BLM protests have made no difference.

    Ditto VE Day and the sunny Easter.

    The Strange Case of the Silent Hounds in the Springtime.
    It is fascinating how it is fizzling out here...where as in the US, it is Corona PARTTTTTIEEEE time, especially in Southern states where it is warm.
    Surely it's also fizzling out in the U.S. in states such as NY, NJ and Mass which were worst affected in the early days, before the virus spread to the mid-west and west coast. Plus their death rate is very much lower than ours.
    Yes, the NYC it has fizzled out. But many of the states who appeared to have done very well on the West Coast (and it was there just as early as NY), now being hit really hard.

    As I have said before, it is as if you hit 20% of your population having got it and then transmission becomes so much harder it fizzles out even when people breaking lockdown e.g. NYC / London.
    Great analysis.

    That does indeed seem to be the case.
    As a Londoner this is what I am hoping. The magic 20%.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 435
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The desire to portray anti-racism as a "cult" indicates to me how deep seated racism is.

    Are you saying it's impossible to have a movement that argues for members of all ethnic groups to treat one another with respect and dignity without having to subscribe to all the monument-destruction, 'White Fragility', foot-washing, language-rewriting, Marxism, cultishness, inherited guilt, reparations-for-ancient-sins bollocks?

    Because the former would get close to 99% public support, and could achieve real, tangible progress. It's the latter accretions that turn a good, even inspirational movement into a sinister culture war that otherwise fair-minded people will be driven to resist.
    I'm saying that racism is deeply ingrained and one of the main reasons people are so energized to smear and demonize "woke", to mis-characterize and weaponize it as an insult - or just very happily go along with those that do - is because they know this is the case and they are queasy about facing it. Which is a shame because the uncomfortable experience of facing it could, if done in the right way, accelerate us towards the colour blind future that most of us want to see realized one day.
    I can very much see both points of view on this one.

    I followed the Kaepernick protest from Day 1 (I like the NFL and support his former team), and have supported him in what he is doing from the start. I saw people trying to pretend it was something it wasn't, him adjusting it to address those concerns, and the adjustments doing no good. Within a year he was out of the league, and no reasonable person thinks this was because of his decline in play. Kneeling for the anthem was also banned.

    The reason for this outcome was feared loss of revenue from boycotts by the right. The inverse of this would be correctly described by the right as giving in to the mob. The phrase "political correctness" would also find its way into the discussion, if a right-wing protester were treated like that. It was shameful.

    Given the horror of what happened to George Floyd, on top of all the other horrors which were met with token disapproval, I don't see how any reasonable person can disagree with a revival of the protest, at least in the US. The UK equivalent (e.g. Stop and Search) has not been well articulated. Nevertheless, if I were a footballer, I would be kneeling, even if nobody else was.

    However, there has been a nasty undercurrent through it all from the start. I saw people who were sincerely, if irrationally, offended by Kaepernick's actions - viewing them as an insult to their dead loved ones - being instantly labelled as racists and subjected to hate. If I intervened to try to remove the misunderstanding, I merely got targeted by the same hate (only by the purported anti-racists, never by the offended bereaved relative).

    This element has grown, and is a significant part of the movement. That doesn't make BLM a cult, any more than it makes the Conservatives an Islamophobic party or Labour an anti-Semitic party, but there's a case to be made that there are cultish elements within it. Those of us who support the goal of BLM have a responsibility to speak out against the hatred.

    The stock response is, of course, to complain that people are only speaking out against their hate and not that of the far right thugs who protest against them. Besides this not being true (the opposite is closer to the truth), there's a logic to that course of action anyway. Among people I know, there's unanimity that the far right thugs are vile, so it hardly needs saying.

    The question of what is or is not acceptable behaviour in the name of anti-racism is much less well defined (at least among people I know). Personally, my only problem with pulling down statues is that it's a distraction, and I can even empathise with the rioting in the US. But the vile behaviour that I descibed above, towards bereaved people who have a different opinion, crosses the line for me. I would be much firmer in speaking out against it now than I was then.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    England regional case data by specimen date -

    image
    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Scott_xP said:
    Name: Mickey Mouse

    Address: Main Street, Disneyland.
    Of course you can do that but why would you
    Landlord - "Only licensed to serve humans. Not vermin. F^&k Off!"
  • Seems like UKIP living up to their reputation of the party of fruitcakes , loonies and closet racists....Leader appears to tick all 3 boxes.

    In an online CV posted last summer, Mr Vachha listed an extensive list of hobbies which included computer programming, 'Nazi Germany', growing 'ultra-hot' chillies, travelling int he Himalayas and the 'Belgian Congo holocaust'.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8447639/Ukip-picks-tax-consultant-lists-Nazi-Germany-hobbies-new-leader.html

    This is a Monty Python sketch surely. Next his hobbies will be golf, strangling animals and masturbating.
  • kinabalu said:

    eadric said:

    This is a brilliant essay, deconstructing Wokeness as a cult, and rightly so: because it is.

    https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/cult-dynamics-wokeness/

    As the essay describes, it displays all the major characteristics of a cult, the only difference is that Wokeness is so much bigger than most cults, and therefore much more dangerous.

    In particular, Wokeness uses a concept - White Fragility - to reel people into the guilt by making them feel painfully guilty and inadequate, a crisis which can only be solved by joining the cult, accepting all its nostrums, and thereby gaining redemption. Which is what all successful cults do.

    ie White Fragility means you, as a white person, are racist. This racism, your racism, is systemic and invisible and does not have to be proved, it just exists. If you admit you are racist then of course you are evil, and the only way to save yourself is joining the Woke, and admitting sin. If you deny you are racist that is because you have White Fragility, and cannot see that you are racist, which makes you even MORE racist. So, again, you have to join the Woke to save yourself.

    It's fiendishly clever and seriously disturbing.

    Chapo Trap House recently critiqued White Fragility from a leftist materialist perspective. They focus on the background of the author as somebody who is paid by large corporations to come and give implicit bias training, which (they claim) the evidence shows is ineffective, and say the true reason for it is to reduce the corporation's liability, and to potentially provide ammunition if they want to fire people. They talk about how the book is essentially a sales pitch to affluent liberals to keep paying for courses like the author's as a kind of temporary absolution- a bitter medicine that you know works because it's painful, but ultimately doesn't actually do anything to help minorities. They say that on the contrary, real anti-racist work that actually helps people should feel good.

    I found it a lot more convincing than your hysteria.
    That's interesting. Hadn't come across that.

    You are not too enamoured with "affluent white liberals", I sense.
    All puts me in mind of this. I saw an article in The Guardian (where else !!!) about it.

    I admire the sheer bravado of this.

    https://race2dinner.com/about
This discussion has been closed.