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  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    It's just the reality that New Zealand is a country with a population smaller than, say, Slovakia, and a hell of a long way away. So increased trade with them, while nice, just won't move economic indicators at all.

    It's not a criticism of the fine people of New Zealand, just economic fact.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Scott_xP said:
    Ah, political journalists trying to be experts on aviation again. What could possibly go wrong?

    $50k might be the cost of a plane’s worth of paint for AA, who buy it by the tonne. It’s sure as hell not the cost of the hangar, scaffolding, mobile platforms, design, printing of masks, paper, tape, stripper for the old paint - oh, and about a dozen certified people working for a week or two on it. £900k is about right.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian says:

    Air Force One for Boris? RAF plane for VIPs gets a union jack makeover
    The prime minister’s plane, also used by royalty, is getting a new paint job costing £100,000 plus


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/air-force-one-for-boris-raf-plane-for-vips-gets-a-union-jack-makeover

    Which is bang in the middle for the quoted 777 repaint (not forgetting that there may be more bits n'pieces on the RAF Voyager than a regular airliner.

    Where did Faisal Islam get his £900,000 from?

    Bear in mind

    (a) scheme is more complex than most (not all) airliners
    (b) it's a PFI job - with the implications

    It costs 60 times what any sane person would pay for it and is still shit?
    I have found it wise to steer clear of the occupants of any vehicle bearing a Union Flag or the flag of St George. Perhaps Boris is channelling his inner chav.
    I was myself thinking more of those pop culture Minis or Mini Mokes of the 1960s (I am a bit too young for that era really).

    I'd be interested to see how the designers achieve the result on the Johnson-Mobile. It seems to be hard to get a UJ which is recogniseable without it looking like a hippymobile at one extreme or so undertstated at the other that it's not recogniseable as a UJ - like the later British Airways scheme on Concorde for instance. Didn't the latter upset Mrs T so much she draped a hanky over the GRP model showing it at a Farnborough Air Show? Or am I misremembering?
    No, she was draping the rebranded BA tailfin art that removed the Union Flag and was just 'world designs' - I think the one she covered was based on Dutch pottery but I could be wrong.
    That's it, thank you! But the BA tail fin was pretty understated anyway.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Anyway. Time for footie again
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Painting a bloody plane! Is that it? Is that what Boris is about?

    He will be the envy of the other 27 EU leaders when he rocks up to trade talks in AirBorisOne/ BorisForceOne.

    The art of one-upmanship.
    Slovakia wins the Presidential Flight Design One-Upmanship award, I think...


    But it looks like a 15 year old Airbus. Style over substance!
    That's a Fokker 100 plane, I think. Slovakia does have an AIrbus A319, I think, in its presidential flight but the design doesn't work so well. The plane is too fat.
    Yes, definitely a Fokker-100 - built in the EU, natch!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Tories: Marxism is evil.
    Others: But what about all those RCP ones you employ?
    Tories: Splendid fellows. Radical free thinkers don't cha know!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Ah, political journalists trying to be experts on aviation again. What could possibly go wrong?

    $50k might be the cost of a plane’s worth of paint for AA, who buy it by the tonne. It’s sure as hell not the cost of the hangar, scaffolding, mobile platforms, design, printing of masks, paper, tape, stripper for the old paint - oh, and about a dozen certified people working for a week or two on it. £900k is about right.
    Why do they need certifying?

    Although I suppose they would be working for Johnson which would send anyone round the twist...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    It's just the reality that New Zealand is a country with a population smaller than, say, Slovakia, and a hell of a long way away. So increased trade with them, while nice, just won't move economic indicators at all.

    It's not a criticism of the fine people of New Zealand, just economic fact.
    Well lets have fewer criticisms of that US trade deal the government is working on then too
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Cyclefree said:

    Painting a bloody plane! Is that it? Is that what Boris is about?

    He will be the envy of the other 27 EU leaders when he rocks up to trade talks in AirBorisOne/ BorisForceOne.

    The art of one-upmanship.
    They should just draw a giant cock on the side of the plane. Then it will be obvious who has just landed.
    Boris is the gift that keeps on giving! Even his surname....
    :wink:
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    A brutal but justified takedown of the teaching unions

    https://thecritic.co.uk/the-teaching-unions-are-a-national-disgrace/

    Worthless, yet brutal. It's barely worth arguing with but when you have the most conservative of teaching groups saying the same things as the more left leaning ones it doesn't stand up for more than a second.

    There is one thing leading this and that is parental will. Parents don't want to send their children into school when the government previously set out to sacrifice half a million people leading to the PM nearly doing it to himself. That's the bottom line.

    Blowhards like that really want to have a go at feckless parents but they haven't got the guts,
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian says:

    Air Force One for Boris? RAF plane for VIPs gets a union jack makeover
    The prime minister’s plane, also used by royalty, is getting a new paint job costing £100,000 plus


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/air-force-one-for-boris-raf-plane-for-vips-gets-a-union-jack-makeover

    Which is bang in the middle for the quoted 777 repaint (not forgetting that there may be more bits n'pieces on the RAF Voyager than a regular airliner.

    Where did Faisal Islam get his £900,000 from?

    Bear in mind

    (a) scheme is more complex than most (not all) airliners
    (b) it's a PFI job - with the implications

    It costs 60 times what any sane person would pay for it and is still shit?
    I have found it wise to steer clear of the occupants of any vehicle bearing a Union Flag or the flag of St George. Perhaps Boris is channelling his inner chav.
    BJ's going to plaster the windows with Help For Heroes and I Stand With Soldier F stickers, isn't he?
    "Which do you think is more deserving of funding from the UK taxpayer - (i) recruiting yet more "diversity advisors" in local government or (ii) making sure our veterans are properly looked after?"

    "Yes, Frank, OK - you go first."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020
    Talking of world leaders planes

    https://youtu.be/o-l4P0K00iM
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Yep. It’ll likely fit in with the “Great” branding that DfIT use internationally.
    https://www.great.gov.uk/international/
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    It's just the reality that New Zealand is a country with a population smaller than, say, Slovakia, and a hell of a long way away. So increased trade with them, while nice, just won't move economic indicators at all.

    It's not a criticism of the fine people of New Zealand, just economic fact.
    Well lets have fewer criticisms of that US trade deal the government is working on then too
    I don't quite understand your point.

    Are you saying we should just roll over on any trade deal Trump slops out because his country has 328 million souls (and is economically significant) whereas Jacinda Ardern's has five million and essentially isn't?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Extremely refreshing and important. The identitarian left is about to discover that genuine diversity comes in thought as well as in immutable characteristics...
    As refreshing as appointing a homeopath to spearhead a review into cancer treatments.
    Homeopathy as a specific medical practise uses infinitesimally small quantities of active ingredients diluted so much that any efficacy is implausible except as a placebo. Indeed, people have conducted 'mass overdoses' of homeopathic remedies to show how useless they are.

    However, if your comment was aimed more widely and you're referring to any naturopathic doctor spearheading a review into cancer treatments, yes that would be very refreshing. And probably result in far better cancer outcomes that we have in the UK at the moment.
    The allusion was - somebody heads an inquiry into something they do not think is worth looking into and probably do not even believe in. It almost worked. It's not bad.

    I thought you would be quite big in homeopathy. Just goes to show. Assumptions about people are fraught with danger. Avoid where possible.
    I can't speak for them, but I doubt homeopaths are uninterested in cancer treatments, and naturopaths certainly aren't - they are probably interested in a wider range than conventional medics though. So the analogy does work, it just doesn't support your argument.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    It's just the reality that New Zealand is a country with a population smaller than, say, Slovakia, and a hell of a long way away. So increased trade with them, while nice, just won't move economic indicators at all.

    It's not a criticism of the fine people of New Zealand, just economic fact.
    Well lets have fewer criticisms of that US trade deal the government is working on then too
    It won't be a fair trade deal, we will have to lower our standards on worker's rights and animal welfare to compete. It will be the only thing we have left, so we will get screwed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian says:

    Air Force One for Boris? RAF plane for VIPs gets a union jack makeover
    The prime minister’s plane, also used by royalty, is getting a new paint job costing £100,000 plus


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/air-force-one-for-boris-raf-plane-for-vips-gets-a-union-jack-makeover

    Which is bang in the middle for the quoted 777 repaint (not forgetting that there may be more bits n'pieces on the RAF Voyager than a regular airliner.

    Where did Faisal Islam get his £900,000 from?

    Bear in mind

    (a) scheme is more complex than most (not all) airliners
    (b) it's a PFI job - with the implications

    It costs 60 times what any sane person would pay for it and is still shit?
    I have found it wise to steer clear of the occupants of any vehicle bearing a Union Flag or the flag of St George. Perhaps Boris is channelling his inner chav.
    I was myself thinking more of those pop culture Minis or Mini Mokes of the 1960s (I am a bit too young for that era really).

    I'd be interested to see how the designers achieve the result on the Johnson-Mobile. It seems to be hard to get a UJ which is recogniseable without it looking like a hippymobile at one extreme or so undertstated at the other that it's not recogniseable as a UJ - like the later British Airways scheme on Concorde for instance. Didn't the latter upset Mrs T so much she draped a hanky over the GRP model showing it at a Farnborough Air Show? Or am I misremembering?
    No, it was one of the "world image" non-UK designs that Fatcha objected to on a model. Concorde always carried the "Chatham" Union Flag design which BA now uses fleet-wide.

    (Called "Chatham" because it was inspired by the naval flag factory at the old Chatham naval base.)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Painting a bloody plane! Is that it? Is that what Boris is about?

    He will be the envy of the other 27 EU leaders when he rocks up to trade talks in AirBorisOne/ BorisForceOne.

    The art of one-upmanship.
    They should just draw a giant cock on the side of the plane. Then it will be obvious who has just landed.
    https://youtu.be/ARXqNc5DGXU
    Posted earlier, I know, but Austin Powers's Jumbo Jet had the best paint scheme:

    image
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited June 2020
    rpjs said:

    This is a non political question but as my wife and I may venture out soon after 12 weeks locked away I have acquired face masks but on trying them on my glasses steam up

    As I have to wear glasses to drive I will not be able to do both

    Is this just me or has anyone advice on this strange issue

    I don't think there's any reason to wear the mask actually over your face while you're driving with the windows up, just be ready to put it on properly as soon as you get out.

    Also with the disposable kind, the top is usually slightly stiffer so you can mould it to fit close around your nose and cheeks. I've found that very effective in stopping the glasses fogging issue.
    iirc @Foxy suggested using Micropore tape to seal the top of the mask to your face. In this case, there is no obvious reason to wear a mask while driving your own housemates.

    ETA link to Government guidance (hope Wales is the same!)
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-safer-travel-guidance-for-passengers
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    Sandpit said:

    ukpaul said:

    Apologies if someone mentioned this but, just skimming the last thread, there's an obvious reason why Starmer won't say yes to schools going back. It's also a stupid question from Johnson, as it seems to be something else that he doesn't know about.

    Starmer does want schools to further reopen but he can't push that because he's seen the returning pupil figures and, on average, only 25% of those who could return did so. Parents are clearly not on board (and polls showed that well before anyway). It might just be something to do with the initial attempt to off half a million of us and then Johnson nearly dying himself. If you want the reason why people are so cautious compared to other countries that's why, so there is very little trust left regarding what claims are being made now.

    There are millions of people, many of whom are in low-paid or hourly paid work, who can’t go back to work and face losing their jobs if the schools don’t reopen.

    That’s before we think of the kids who need school because they have a chaotic home life, live with someone violent, addicted or abusive, don’t have a computer at home, don’t have parents who care about education etc.

    It’s fine for a bunch of middle class parents who love educating their kids and can do home school in the nice garden at this time of year.

    Yet Starmer, who’s been sending his own kids to school because he can, chooses not to side with getting the poor and disadvantaged kids back to school - siding instead with the teachers’ unions, for whom no amount of precautions taken would be enough.
    And the government's approach is just as rubbish.

    Using schools as childcare to allow people to get back to work isn't dignified, but yes, it's part of what schools do, and needs must in a crisis.

    So expand the key worker offer from "key workers who have no alternative" to "all workers who have no alternative". Take the load off individual schools by making the national remote offerings as easy to use as possible (Bitesize Daily from the BBC and Oak National Academy from a group of teachers are both pretty good). Then see how much it's possible to get everyone back part-time.

    One of mine had their first day back since lockdown today. With the rooms and furniture they have, the school can just about offer 2 days a week to all of years R, 1 and 6 plus children of key workers with no alternative. I really feel for my other one, who isn't in one of those year groups and probably won't get to go back at all because of the dumb priorities the government set. It would have been much better to have got everyone in one day a week.

    The guidance from central government has been rubbish, and I suspect that the (academy) school I know most about is representative. They have done the best they can with the rules put in place. The attempts by the government to weaponise this as a culture war are as disgrace.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
    Surely the tried and tested 'fuckwits' is the noun to use.

    If you tell me you're 'woke' I won't punch you - I will want to though.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    dixiedean said:

    Tories: Marxism is evil.
    Others: But what about all those RCP ones you employ?
    Tories: Splendid fellows. Radical free thinkers don't cha know!

    Still think the ex-RCP comrades are secretly working to overthrow capitalism from the inside by making it so unbearable that the masses will have no choice but to start a revolution. Nothing else makes sense.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Are we absolutely sure Cummings wasn't a member of the RCP?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    HYUFD said:
    For better or worse it is meaningless as the Johnson majority will easily overturn it in the Commons.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    rpjs said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian says:

    Air Force One for Boris? RAF plane for VIPs gets a union jack makeover
    The prime minister’s plane, also used by royalty, is getting a new paint job costing £100,000 plus


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/air-force-one-for-boris-raf-plane-for-vips-gets-a-union-jack-makeover

    Which is bang in the middle for the quoted 777 repaint (not forgetting that there may be more bits n'pieces on the RAF Voyager than a regular airliner.

    Where did Faisal Islam get his £900,000 from?

    Bear in mind

    (a) scheme is more complex than most (not all) airliners
    (b) it's a PFI job - with the implications

    It costs 60 times what any sane person would pay for it and is still shit?
    I have found it wise to steer clear of the occupants of any vehicle bearing a Union Flag or the flag of St George. Perhaps Boris is channelling his inner chav.
    I was myself thinking more of those pop culture Minis or Mini Mokes of the 1960s (I am a bit too young for that era really).

    I'd be interested to see how the designers achieve the result on the Johnson-Mobile. It seems to be hard to get a UJ which is recogniseable without it looking like a hippymobile at one extreme or so undertstated at the other that it's not recogniseable as a UJ - like the later British Airways scheme on Concorde for instance. Didn't the latter upset Mrs T so much she draped a hanky over the GRP model showing it at a Farnborough Air Show? Or am I misremembering?
    No, it was one of the "world image" non-UK designs that Fatcha objected to on a model. Concorde always carried the "Chatham" Union Flag design which BA now uses fleet-wide.

    (Called "Chatham" because it was inspired by the naval flag factory at the old Chatham naval base.)
    Harold Wilson, campaigning in 1966: ‘I will never allow a Royal Dockyard to be closed. And why do I say this?’

    Voice from the hall: ‘Because you’re in Chatham...’
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
    Surely the tried and tested 'fuckwits' is the noun to use.

    If you tell me you're 'woke' I won't punch you - I will want to though.
    I've never ever met anyone telling me that they're woke, in life or on the internet. Plenty of red faced blokes calling other people woke about, mind...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Andy_JS said:

    "The myth of white privilege
    British capitalism was built on the ruthless exploitation of wage slaves, not black slaves.
    MOSES DUBE"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/17/the-myth-of-white-privilege/

    I sense a blank space where a venn diagram could usefully be.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Scott_xP said:
    Siri, give me the definition of irony.
    Some people, like you with your gloating and sneering, will no doubt love every single job loss in deprived communities and put it down to brexit.

    The fact is De La Rue are in trouble and have been for a long time and closures are part of,the solution. We are fast becoming a cashless society.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2020/01/30/why-is-a-company-that-prints-money-running-out-of-cash/
    You don't think it's ironic that the nasty EU passports were made in the UK while the nice British blue passports are made in the EU? It just sums up the stupidity of the whole exercise and how it was always about prioritising things that don't matter (what colour your passport is) over things that do (jobs).
    I have nothing but sympathy for the people who lost their jobs, btw. No gloating or sneering from me, I grew up on Tyneside so i can imagine the impact on Gateshead.
    It's the kind of thing that sends Twitter into a frenzy, but the bottom line is that the May Government awarded the contract to the company that put in the best bid. Obviously the management of De La Rue also felt the prospect of the job going overseas was preposterous, and therefore didn't feel they needed to make their bid competitive. Personally, I would like jobs in the UK to be considered as a factor in public procurement (I don't believe it has up until this point, unlike with almost all other world governments), but equally, companies need to know they can't gouge the taxpayer.
    Under EU gov procurement laws, anyone in the EU could submit a bid of course.
    No reason why the UK can’t now demand that jobs stay in the UK for this sort of thing, although public sector contracts do usually feature in major trade deals.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563

    This is interesting (the whole thread is worth a look):

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1273293116301357057
    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1273293120453607429

    This one looks like a case of the EU doing exactly what it accuses the UK of doing: wanting to reproduce aspects of EU/EEA membership without us being EU/EEA members.

    Edit: I see @CarlottaVance has already posted some of the thread.

    I hope the UK sticks to its guns on this one. And we should be applying it to all extradition treaties, particularly those with the US.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    I am sure our relationship with the kiwis will be fruitful.
    Haha - so am I.

    And there are other considerations - New Zealand's environment is incredibly unspoiled, and therefore its food produce is second to none. The more of it that enters the food chain imo, the better for the general health of the UK.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Cyclefree said:

    Painting a bloody plane! Is that it? Is that what Boris is about?

    He will be the envy of the other 27 EU leaders when he rocks up to trade talks in AirBorisOne/ BorisForceOne.

    The art of one-upmanship.
    They should just draw a giant cock on the side of the plane. Then it will be obvious who has just landed.
    :smile: - you do occasionally shoot the lights out, Sandy, and this is one such.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    HYUFD said:
    For better or worse it is meaningless as the Johnson majority will easily overturn it in the Commons.
    What actually were they voting on? The Posonby Rule as codified by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 allows either house to veto ratification of a treaty.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
    Surely the tried and tested 'fuckwits' is the noun to use.

    If you tell me you're 'woke' I won't punch you - I will want to though.
    I've never ever met anyone telling me that they're woke, in life or on the internet. Plenty of red faced blokes calling other people woke about, mind...
    You obviously mix with the wrong crowds. It is a common self identifier amongst students. Worn as a badge of honour rather than an insult. Mind you students always have been strange creatures. It seems to be a phase people go through.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250

    This is interesting (the whole thread is worth a look):

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1273293116301357057
    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1273293120453607429

    This one looks like a case of the EU doing exactly what it accuses the UK of doing: wanting to reproduce aspects of EU/EEA membership without us being EU/EEA members.

    Edit: I see @CarlottaVance has already posted some of the thread.

    I hope the UK sticks to its guns on this one. And we should be applying it to all extradition treaties, particularly those with the US.

    A chance to fix something that was an unjust mess when it was introduced.

    Planespotters.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Alistair said:

    Are we absolutely sure Cummings wasn't a member of the RCP?

    CPRF surely?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited June 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Sadly it’s a lot worse than that. BAME conservatives have been getting racist hate mail from the far left for the past couple of weeks.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/we-need-to-talk-about-munira-mirza-and-priti-patel
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
    Surely the tried and tested 'fuckwits' is the noun to use.

    If you tell me you're 'woke' I won't punch you - I will want to though.
    I've never ever met anyone telling me that they're woke, in life or on the internet. Plenty of red faced blokes calling other people woke about, mind...
    Sure. A look, a word - we can easily assess we're not frothing loons. At least so it should be. Quite how there are Corbyns and McDonnells escapes me.

    I suspect that you're trying to suggest that I'm some puffing loon. Who knows. I've certainly never accused anyone of being 'woke' though. I don't plan to either - it's horrible English.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020

    Fingers crossed you're right.

    I'm not betting on this, I despise Trump too much to bet rationally on it and don't have faith in Americans not to re-elect him.

    Sound words. He's so odious he blots out rational analysis. Sadly, that has been to his advantage so far.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
    Unless you find the very concept of Britain laughable (which I suppose you may, but thankfully most don't), I don't see why either of those developments would make people laugh at us. If the design of Boris Air looks ridiculous, we can talk again.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    I am sure our relationship with the kiwis will be fruitful.
    Relationships are complex. They're never black and white. So long as this one isn't all black we'll be doing OK.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian says:

    Air Force One for Boris? RAF plane for VIPs gets a union jack makeover
    The prime minister’s plane, also used by royalty, is getting a new paint job costing £100,000 plus


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/air-force-one-for-boris-raf-plane-for-vips-gets-a-union-jack-makeover

    Which is bang in the middle for the quoted 777 repaint (not forgetting that there may be more bits n'pieces on the RAF Voyager than a regular airliner.

    Where did Faisal Islam get his £900,000 from?

    Bear in mind

    (a) scheme is more complex than most (not all) airliners
    (b) it's a PFI job - with the implications

    It costs 60 times what any sane person would pay for it and is still shit?
    I have found it wise to steer clear of the occupants of any vehicle bearing a Union Flag or the flag of St George. Perhaps Boris is channelling his inner chav.
    I was myself thinking more of those pop culture Minis or Mini Mokes of the 1960s (I am a bit too young for that era really).

    I'd be interested to see how the designers achieve the result on the Johnson-Mobile. It seems to be hard to get a UJ which is recogniseable without it looking like a hippymobile at one extreme or so undertstated at the other that it's not recogniseable as a UJ - like the later British Airways scheme on Concorde for instance. Didn't the latter upset Mrs T so much she draped a hanky over the GRP model showing it at a Farnborough Air Show? Or am I misremembering?
    It was the new funky tail designs that Mrs T didn’t like, that had replaced the union flag ones.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
    Surely the tried and tested 'fuckwits' is the noun to use.

    If you tell me you're 'woke' I won't punch you - I will want to though.
    I've never ever met anyone telling me that they're woke, in life or on the internet. Plenty of red faced blokes calling other people woke about, mind...
    I had assumed it was a term which began as a self identifier but that it is now primarily used by those who use it as an insult - I have encountered at least one real person who used it in a positive sense, much to my surprise, so I think it cannot have simply been a perjorative invention.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    Robert, welcome to the wave election club. Biden 412 EC votes. Dems hold House, take the Senate.

    Oi. TrumpToast club! :smile:

    Only admitted you on Monday and now you're trying to change the name!
    LOLs, Kinbalu

    There, I changed your name too! (typo, but amusing in context)
    :smile: - forgiven.

    As for MY name, I like Kinbalu and also Kinabula - this latter emanating a sort of earthy primordial strength.

    But I am the mountain - the faraway mountain.
    Highest point on Earth I've ever reached - the earthquake was a real tragedy. Wonder if it made the tourist trade that much more careful.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    I am sure our relationship with the kiwis will be fruitful.
    Relationships are complex. They're never black and white. So long as this one isn't all black we'll be doing OK.
    Kiwis are green, with lots of black seeds.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
    Unless you find the very concept of Britain laughable (which I suppose you may, but thankfully most don't), I don't see why either of those developments would make people laugh at us. If the design of Boris Air looks ridiculous, we can talk again.
    I somehow doubt it will be something subtle like this.

    image
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The myth of white privilege
    British capitalism was built on the ruthless exploitation of wage slaves, not black slaves.
    MOSES DUBE"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/17/the-myth-of-white-privilege/

    I sense a blank space where a venn diagram could usefully be.
    According to Edwin Chadwick in 1840, 57% of the working-class children of Manchester died before their fifth birthday, compared with 32% in rural districts. Whereas a farm labourer in Rutland had a life-expectancy of 38, a factory worker in Liverpool had an average age of death of 15.

    It was slavery in all but name.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian says:

    Air Force One for Boris? RAF plane for VIPs gets a union jack makeover
    The prime minister’s plane, also used by royalty, is getting a new paint job costing £100,000 plus


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/air-force-one-for-boris-raf-plane-for-vips-gets-a-union-jack-makeover

    Which is bang in the middle for the quoted 777 repaint (not forgetting that there may be more bits n'pieces on the RAF Voyager than a regular airliner.

    Where did Faisal Islam get his £900,000 from?

    Bear in mind

    (a) scheme is more complex than most (not all) airliners
    (b) it's a PFI job - with the implications

    It costs 60 times what any sane person would pay for it and is still shit?
    I have found it wise to steer clear of the occupants of any vehicle bearing a Union Flag or the flag of St George. Perhaps Boris is channelling his inner chav.
    I was myself thinking more of those pop culture Minis or Mini Mokes of the 1960s (I am a bit too young for that era really).

    I'd be interested to see how the designers achieve the result on the Johnson-Mobile. It seems to be hard to get a UJ which is recogniseable without it looking like a hippymobile at one extreme or so undertstated at the other that it's not recogniseable as a UJ - like the later British Airways scheme on Concorde for instance. Didn't the latter upset Mrs T so much she draped a hanky over the GRP model showing it at a Farnborough Air Show? Or am I misremembering?
    It was the new funky tail designs that Mrs T didn’t like, that had replaced the union flag ones.

    Thank you! Nice to see those photos again - after so long.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Siri, give me the definition of irony.
    Some people, like you with your gloating and sneering, will no doubt love every single job loss in deprived communities and put it down to brexit.

    The fact is De La Rue are in trouble and have been for a long time and closures are part of,the solution. We are fast becoming a cashless society.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2020/01/30/why-is-a-company-that-prints-money-running-out-of-cash/
    You don't think it's ironic that the nasty EU passports were made in the UK while the nice British blue passports are made in the EU? It just sums up the stupidity of the whole exercise and how it was always about prioritising things that don't matter (what colour your passport is) over things that do (jobs).
    I have nothing but sympathy for the people who lost their jobs, btw. No gloating or sneering from me, I grew up on Tyneside so i can imagine the impact on Gateshead.
    It's the kind of thing that sends Twitter into a frenzy, but the bottom line is that the May Government awarded the contract to the company that put in the best bid. Obviously the management of De La Rue also felt the prospect of the job going overseas was preposterous, and therefore didn't feel they needed to make their bid competitive. Personally, I would like jobs in the UK to be considered as a factor in public procurement (I don't believe it has up until this point, unlike with almost all other world governments), but equally, companies need to know they can't gouge the taxpayer.
    Under EU gov procurement laws, anyone in the EU could submit a bid of course.
    No reason why the UK can’t now demand that jobs stay in the UK for this sort of thing, although public sector contracts do usually feature in major trade deals.
    It could be just a perception, but my feeling is that most EU states pretty much ignore EU competition laws when it comes to public procurement. If there are hundreds of German police cars that are Renaults and Italian police cars that are BMWs, I've missed them. I've never got that with the British Government/civil service, and I've never really known why.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Extremely refreshing and important. The identitarian left is about to discover that genuine diversity comes in thought as well as in immutable characteristics...
    As refreshing as appointing a homeopath to spearhead a review into cancer treatments.
    More like appointing Galileo to research astronomy rather than leaving it in the hands of the Catholic Inquisition...
    If Galileo was a "solar system skeptic", yes.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
    Unless you find the very concept of Britain laughable (which I suppose you may, but thankfully most don't), I don't see why either of those developments would make people laugh at us. If the design of Boris Air looks ridiculous, we can talk again.
    I somehow doubt it will be something subtle like this.

    image
    Red, white and blue!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
    Which people and about what is they key thing I think. The colour scheme of a plane, or its design, or even how much it costs, are not something that will be of any consequence. People might raise some of the petty crap Trump has done, but none of that is of any consequence next to the much more substantive things he has done. And even those won't matter in terms of government interests with foreign governments and peoples, since they'd be foolish to let such a thing impact their own actions. If Macron spent too much sprucing up his bathroom to look like a cabin on the Titanic that would probably be very silly and make people laugh at him, but it wouldn't matter abroad.

    We worry far far too much about 'people' laughing at us.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:
    For better or worse it is meaningless as the Johnson majority will easily overturn it in the Commons.
    What actually were they voting on? The Posonby Rule as codified by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 allows either house to veto ratification of a treaty.
    That's good. Like all the other prerogative powers it would be good to see this brought properly under the control of Parliament. Not sure in that case what Adonis is going on about.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    kle4 said:

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
    Which people and about what is they key thing I think. The colour scheme of a plane, or its design, or even how much it costs, are not something that will be of any consequence. People might raise some of the petty crap Trump has done, but none of that is of any consequence next to the much more substantive things he has done. And even those won't matter in terms of government interests with foreign governments and peoples, since they'd be foolish to let such a thing impact their own actions. If Macron spent too much sprucing up his bathroom to look like a cabin on the Titanic that would probably be very silly and make people laugh at him, but it wouldn't matter abroad.

    We worry far far too much about 'people' laughing at us.
    But surely not if 'we' is Mr Johnson and his party, and 'people' are UK voters. I suspect there has been a calculation already. But if it turns out like an episode of Pimp My Wings ...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Siri, give me the definition of irony.
    Some people, like you with your gloating and sneering, will no doubt love every single job loss in deprived communities and put it down to brexit.

    The fact is De La Rue are in trouble and have been for a long time and closures are part of,the solution. We are fast becoming a cashless society.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2020/01/30/why-is-a-company-that-prints-money-running-out-of-cash/
    You don't think it's ironic that the nasty EU passports were made in the UK while the nice British blue passports are made in the EU? It just sums up the stupidity of the whole exercise and how it was always about prioritising things that don't matter (what colour your passport is) over things that do (jobs).
    I have nothing but sympathy for the people who lost their jobs, btw. No gloating or sneering from me, I grew up on Tyneside so i can imagine the impact on Gateshead.
    It's the kind of thing that sends Twitter into a frenzy, but the bottom line is that the May Government awarded the contract to the company that put in the best bid. Obviously the management of De La Rue also felt the prospect of the job going overseas was preposterous, and therefore didn't feel they needed to make their bid competitive. Personally, I would like jobs in the UK to be considered as a factor in public procurement (I don't believe it has up until this point, unlike with almost all other world governments), but equally, companies need to know they can't gouge the taxpayer.
    Under EU gov procurement laws, anyone in the EU could submit a bid of course.
    No reason why the UK can’t now demand that jobs stay in the UK for this sort of thing, although public sector contracts do usually feature in major trade deals.
    It could be just a perception, but my feeling is that most EU states pretty much ignore EU competition laws when it comes to public procurement. If there are hundreds of German police cars that are Renaults and Italian police cars that are BMWs, I've missed them. I've never got that with the British Government/civil service, and I've never really known why.
    image

    image

    image
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
    Unless you find the very concept of Britain laughable (which I suppose you may, but thankfully most don't), I don't see why either of those developments would make people laugh at us. If the design of Boris Air looks ridiculous, we can talk again.
    I somehow doubt it will be something subtle like this.

    image
    It won't be exactly like that, because we're not France. However, it won't necessarily be worse, as you automatically assume.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    The red white and blue plane is a very good idea. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office merger is a very good idea. The motivations for both these actions are quite clear - the Government is going to do its utmost to promote Britain's interests overseas. The people dissing both these ideas are people who were never going to be reconciled to Boris, his Government, or Brexit.

    Do you think it's in our interests to make people laugh at us?
    Which people and about what is they key thing I think. The colour scheme of a plane, or its design, or even how much it costs, are not something that will be of any consequence. People might raise some of the petty crap Trump has done, but none of that is of any consequence next to the much more substantive things he has done. And even those won't matter in terms of government interests with foreign governments and peoples, since they'd be foolish to let such a thing impact their own actions. If Macron spent too much sprucing up his bathroom to look like a cabin on the Titanic that would probably be very silly and make people laugh at him, but it wouldn't matter abroad.

    We worry far far too much about 'people' laughing at us.
    But surely not if 'we' is Mr Johnson and his party, and 'people' are UK voters. I suspect there has been a calculation already. But if it turns out like an episode of Pimp My Wings ...
    As the expression used was about '[laughing] at us' from someone who is not a fan of Boris I thought it safe to assume the question was in the context of foreign relations and impact on the interests of this country, and as is usually the case in these situations it assumes foreign governments are far more petty than I think most are.

    Obviously Boris and co becoming a laughing stock among people who presently like him would be of significance, and small issues can cumulatively end up having a big impact on how people and party, even if the issue itself is misleading, but I suspect the impact is limited.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The myth of white privilege
    British capitalism was built on the ruthless exploitation of wage slaves, not black slaves.
    MOSES DUBE"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/17/the-myth-of-white-privilege/

    I sense a blank space where a venn diagram could usefully be.
    According to Edwin Chadwick in 1840, 57% of the working-class children of Manchester died before their fifth birthday, compared with 32% in rural districts. Whereas a farm labourer in Rutland had a life-expectancy of 38, a factory worker in Liverpool had an average age of death of 15.

    It was slavery in all but name.
    Indeed it was. And is - it continues in many places around the world today.

    Capitalism needs its victims. It must eat.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    I am sure our relationship with the kiwis will be fruitful.
    Haha - so am I.

    And there are other considerations - New Zealand's environment is incredibly unspoiled, and therefore its food produce is second to none. The more of it that enters the food chain imo, the better for the general health of the UK.
    You speak great sense of food welfare matters and food in general. It’s just a shame you are such a crank on everything else!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The myth of white privilege
    British capitalism was built on the ruthless exploitation of wage slaves, not black slaves.
    MOSES DUBE"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/17/the-myth-of-white-privilege/

    I sense a blank space where a venn diagram could usefully be.
    According to Edwin Chadwick in 1840, 57% of the working-class children of Manchester died before their fifth birthday, compared with 32% in rural districts. Whereas a farm labourer in Rutland had a life-expectancy of 38, a factory worker in Liverpool had an average age of death of 15.

    It was slavery in all but name.
    Indeed it was. And is - it continues in many places around the world today.

    Capitalism needs its victims. It must eat.
    Of course it doesn't. It can work perfectly well without 'victims'. After all its not something extreme like Marxism. :)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What an arrogant dismissal of our relationship with our New Zealand allies
    I am sure our relationship with the kiwis will be fruitful.
    Haha - so am I.

    And there are other considerations - New Zealand's environment is incredibly unspoiled, and therefore its food produce is second to none. The more of it that enters the food chain imo, the better for the general health of the UK.
    You speak great sense of food welfare matters and food in general. It’s just a shame you are such a crank on everything else!
    I thank you for the compliment and duck the swipe. :lol:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Ah, political journalists trying to be experts on aviation again. What could possibly go wrong?

    $50k might be the cost of a plane’s worth of paint for AA, who buy it by the tonne. It’s sure as hell not the cost of the hangar, scaffolding, mobile platforms, design, printing of masks, paper, tape, stripper for the old paint - oh, and about a dozen certified people working for a week or two on it. £900k is about right.
    Why do they need certifying?

    Although I suppose they would be working for Johnson which would send anyone round the twist...
    Because any job on a plane needs to be done by certified people!

    In practice, you usually have the team leaders as certified, and they sign for the work of the juniors under them. The seniors then cross check each others’s work for what is known as a duplicate inspection. They don’t recruit sprayers from the local auto repair shop and put them on a plane without a lot of training, and as you’d expect they get well paid for the work they do.

    More than one plane has crashed, because important instrument holes got covered up by paint, or someone left some tape on the plane when they finished.

    £1m or thereabouts to paint a £200m plane is going to be about right, for a single piece to a unique design.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited June 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Siri, give me the definition of irony.
    Some people, like you with your gloating and sneering, will no doubt love every single job loss in deprived communities and put it down to brexit.

    The fact is De La Rue are in trouble and have been for a long time and closures are part of,the solution. We are fast becoming a cashless society.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2020/01/30/why-is-a-company-that-prints-money-running-out-of-cash/
    You don't think it's ironic that the nasty EU passports were made in the UK while the nice British blue passports are made in the EU? It just sums up the stupidity of the whole exercise and how it was always about prioritising things that don't matter (what colour your passport is) over things that do (jobs).
    I have nothing but sympathy for the people who lost their jobs, btw. No gloating or sneering from me, I grew up on Tyneside so i can imagine the impact on Gateshead.
    It's the kind of thing that sends Twitter into a frenzy, but the bottom line is that the May Government awarded the contract to the company that put in the best bid. Obviously the management of De La Rue also felt the prospect of the job going overseas was preposterous, and therefore didn't feel they needed to make their bid competitive. Personally, I would like jobs in the UK to be considered as a factor in public procurement (I don't believe it has up until this point, unlike with almost all other world governments), but equally, companies need to know they can't gouge the taxpayer.
    Under EU gov procurement laws, anyone in the EU could submit a bid of course.
    No reason why the UK can’t now demand that jobs stay in the UK for this sort of thing, although public sector contracts do usually feature in major trade deals.
    It could be just a perception, but my feeling is that most EU states pretty much ignore EU competition laws when it comes to public procurement. If there are hundreds of German police cars that are Renaults and Italian police cars that are BMWs, I've missed them. I've never got that with the British Government/civil service, and I've never really known why.
    Agree 100%, and it’s one of the many things that led up to the Brexit vote.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Extremely refreshing and important. The identitarian left is about to discover that genuine diversity comes in thought as well as in immutable characteristics...
    As refreshing as appointing a homeopath to spearhead a review into cancer treatments.
    More like appointing Galileo to research astronomy rather than leaving it in the hands of the Catholic Inquisition...
    If Galileo was a "solar system skeptic", yes.
    I think you'll find that almost all scientists are sceptics by nature - it's what distinguishes science from religion. And my goodness it's time for the religion of woke to experience its Enlightenment...

    p.s. If you don't like 'Wokeists', then how about 'Egregorotes', as ἐγρηγορότες? Though Omnium's probably hit upon the correct vernacular already.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Siri, give me the definition of irony.
    Some people, like you with your gloating and sneering, will no doubt love every single job loss in deprived communities and put it down to brexit.

    The fact is De La Rue are in trouble and have been for a long time and closures are part of,the solution. We are fast becoming a cashless society.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2020/01/30/why-is-a-company-that-prints-money-running-out-of-cash/
    You don't think it's ironic that the nasty EU passports were made in the UK while the nice British blue passports are made in the EU? It just sums up the stupidity of the whole exercise and how it was always about prioritising things that don't matter (what colour your passport is) over things that do (jobs).
    I have nothing but sympathy for the people who lost their jobs, btw. No gloating or sneering from me, I grew up on Tyneside so i can imagine the impact on Gateshead.
    It's the kind of thing that sends Twitter into a frenzy, but the bottom line is that the May Government awarded the contract to the company that put in the best bid. Obviously the management of De La Rue also felt the prospect of the job going overseas was preposterous, and therefore didn't feel they needed to make their bid competitive. Personally, I would like jobs in the UK to be considered as a factor in public procurement (I don't believe it has up until this point, unlike with almost all other world governments), but equally, companies need to know they can't gouge the taxpayer.
    Under EU gov procurement laws, anyone in the EU could submit a bid of course.
    No reason why the UK can’t now demand that jobs stay in the UK for this sort of thing, although public sector contracts do usually feature in major trade deals.
    It could be just a perception, but my feeling is that most EU states pretty much ignore EU competition laws when it comes to public procurement. If there are hundreds of German police cars that are Renaults and Italian police cars that are BMWs, I've missed them. I've never got that with the British Government/civil service, and I've never really known why.
    Agree 100%, and it’s one of the many things that led up to the Brexit wore.
    If the problem is a lack of patriotism among the British elite, how does Brexit help?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    sarissa said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimT said:

    Robert, welcome to the wave election club. Biden 412 EC votes. Dems hold House, take the Senate.

    Oi. TrumpToast club! :smile:

    Only admitted you on Monday and now you're trying to change the name!
    LOLs, Kinbalu

    There, I changed your name too! (typo, but amusing in context)
    :smile: - forgiven.

    As for MY name, I like Kinbalu and also Kinabula - this latter emanating a sort of earthy primordial strength.

    But I am the mountain - the faraway mountain.
    Highest point on Earth I've ever reached - the earthquake was a real tragedy. Wonder if it made the tourist trade that much more careful.
    You did very well. The air is thin up there.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Goal line technology has screwed up there.

    Doesn't VAR kick in there?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Goal line technology has screwed up there.

    Doesn't VAR kick in there?

    Don’t think so. I’ll be livid if that loses me my bet on Sheff Utd for Top 6 @50-1.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Extremely refreshing and important. The identitarian left is about to discover that genuine diversity comes in thought as well as in immutable characteristics...
    As refreshing as appointing a homeopath to spearhead a review into cancer treatments.
    More like appointing Galileo to research astronomy rather than leaving it in the hands of the Catholic Inquisition...
    If Galileo was a "solar system skeptic", yes.
    I think you'll find that almost all scientists are sceptics by nature - it's what distinguishes science from religion. And my goodness it's time for the religion of woke to experience its Enlightenment...

    p.s. If you don't like 'Wokeists', then how about 'Egregorotes', as ἐγρηγορότες? Though Omnium's probably hit upon the correct vernacular already.
    But you know what I mean.

    Your problem is that you're on the wrong side of history. Really don't envy you that. It's a place littered with bitterness and disappointment.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Goal line technology has screwed up there.

    Doesn't VAR kick in there?

    Looked for all the world to be over the line.

    (Great, great stuff that we can argue about this stuff again ♥️⚽️)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    tlg86 said:

    Goal line technology has screwed up there.

    Doesn't VAR kick in there?

    Don’t think so. I’ll be livid if that loses me my bet on Sheff Utd for Top 6 @50-1.

    I'll be gutted for you as well.

    https://twitter.com/TSF/status/1273311196561711105
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
    Surely the tried and tested 'fuckwits' is the noun to use.

    If you tell me you're 'woke' I won't punch you - I will want to though.
    I've never ever met anyone telling me that they're woke, in life or on the internet. Plenty of red faced blokes calling other people woke about, mind...
    I had assumed it was a term which began as a self identifier but that it is now primarily used by those who use it as an insult - I have encountered at least one real person who used it in a positive sense, much to my surprise, so I think it cannot have simply been a perjorative invention.
    That doesn't really persuade me away from my point about never having met anyone self identifying as such (mainly because it's a fact). However we don't need anecdotal evidence for the reverse, indeed there are several such users on here this very eve.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The myth of white privilege
    British capitalism was built on the ruthless exploitation of wage slaves, not black slaves.
    MOSES DUBE"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/17/the-myth-of-white-privilege/

    I sense a blank space where a venn diagram could usefully be.
    According to Edwin Chadwick in 1840, 57% of the working-class children of Manchester died before their fifth birthday, compared with 32% in rural districts. Whereas a farm labourer in Rutland had a life-expectancy of 38, a factory worker in Liverpool had an average age of death of 15.

    It was slavery in all but name.
    Indeed it was. And is - it continues in many places around the world today.

    Capitalism needs its victims. It must eat.
    Of course it doesn't. It can work perfectly well without 'victims'. After all its not something extreme like Marxism. :)
    I can detect the digital tongue in the digital cheek. Which is always nice.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Ah, political journalists trying to be experts on aviation again. What could possibly go wrong?

    $50k might be the cost of a plane’s worth of paint for AA, who buy it by the tonne. It’s sure as hell not the cost of the hangar, scaffolding, mobile platforms, design, printing of masks, paper, tape, stripper for the old paint - oh, and about a dozen certified people working for a week or two on it. £900k is about right.
    Why do they need certifying?

    Although I suppose they would be working for Johnson which would send anyone round the twist...
    Because any job on a plane needs to be done by certified people!

    In practice, you usually have the team leaders as certified, and they sign for the work of the juniors under them. The seniors then cross check each others’s work for what is known as a duplicate inspection. They don’t recruit sprayers from the local auto repair shop and put them on a plane without a lot of training, and as you’d expect they get well paid for the work they do.

    More than one plane has crashed, because important instrument holes got covered up by paint, or someone left some tape on the plane when they finished.

    £1m or thereabouts to paint a £200m plane is going to be about right, for a single piece to a unique design.
    It was a joke...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited June 2020
    How is that not a goal?
    Is the technology as rusty as the ref’s eyesight?

    On the positive side, we have sport back!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Munira Mirza, Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch...

    All the wrong sort of BAME, according to the woke left mob.
    Wokeists: All forms of diversity in all areas of life are good by definition, and the absence of diversity is bad by definition.

    Tories: Wonderful. How about these BAME Conservatives with their own considered views on these matters?

    Wokeists: Not that kind of diversity! Heretics!

    :wink:
    Wokeists - that is a most clumsy word.

    Please use "the Cognescenti" in future.
    Surely the tried and tested 'fuckwits' is the noun to use.

    If you tell me you're 'woke' I won't punch you - I will want to though.
    I'm happier with "member of the cognescenti".

    A cog?

    Call me a bloody cog?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Sandpit said:

    How is that not a goal?
    Is the technology as rusty as the ref’s eyesight?
    My view, Michael Oliver thought it was goal but the protocol is that he has to wait for the alert on his wrist to confirm the goal.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Extremely refreshing and important. The identitarian left is about to discover that genuine diversity comes in thought as well as in immutable characteristics...
    As refreshing as appointing a homeopath to spearhead a review into cancer treatments.
    More like appointing Galileo to research astronomy rather than leaving it in the hands of the Catholic Inquisition...
    If Galileo was a "solar system skeptic", yes.
    I think you'll find that almost all scientists are sceptics by nature - it's what distinguishes science from religion. And my goodness it's time for the religion of woke to experience its Enlightenment...

    p.s. If you don't like 'Wokeists', then how about 'Egregorotes', as ἐγρηγορότες? Though Omnium's probably hit upon the correct vernacular already.
    But you know what I mean.

    Your problem is that you're on the wrong side of history. Really don't envy you that. It's a place littered with bitterness and disappointment.
    Wrong side of today's history is the Labour party - and the description fits.

    Tomorrow's history - who knows.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    So VAR could have overruled the goal line error, so say Sky Sports.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    On topic, Robert, I hope you're right, but on Sunday I'm explaining why I'm not confident on ruling out Trump.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    CatMan said:
    Nah, the goal line technology is still on furlough.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited June 2020
    Arguably GLT should be switched off for the second half.

    EDIT: The game should be null and void if it’s confirmed that GLT has failed.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Barrow back in Football League after 48 years.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    tlg86 said:

    Arguably GLT should be switched off for the second half.

    EDIT: The game should be null and void if it’s confirmed that GLT has failed.

    Sky are reporting that the referee’s watch did vibrate and flash for a goal ... during the half-time break.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Dominic Cummings refereeing the Villa - United game ?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited June 2020

    tlg86 said:

    Arguably GLT should be switched off for the second half.

    EDIT: The game should be null and void if it’s confirmed that GLT has failed.

    Sky are reporting that the referee’s watch did vibrate and flash for a goal ... during the half-time break.
    Imagine if that relegates West Ham!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    tlg86 said:

    Arguably GLT should be switched off for the second half.

    EDIT: The game should be null and void if it’s confirmed that GLT has failed.

    Sky are reporting that the referee’s watch did vibrate and flash for a goal ... during the half-time break.
    Sounds like grounds for legal challenge to me!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Extremely refreshing and important. The identitarian left is about to discover that genuine diversity comes in thought as well as in immutable characteristics...
    As refreshing as appointing a homeopath to spearhead a review into cancer treatments.
    More like appointing Galileo to research astronomy rather than leaving it in the hands of the Catholic Inquisition...
    If Galileo was a "solar system skeptic", yes.
    I think you'll find that almost all scientists are sceptics by nature - it's what distinguishes science from religion. And my goodness it's time for the religion of woke to experience its Enlightenment...

    p.s. If you don't like 'Wokeists', then how about 'Egregorotes', as ἐγρηγορότες? Though Omnium's probably hit upon the correct vernacular already.
    But you know what I mean.

    Your problem is that you're on the wrong side of history. Really don't envy you that. It's a place littered with bitterness and disappointment.
    Do you honestly believe that a 'right side of history' even exists? You're kind of illustrating my point by putting your faith - and faith it is - in the distant teleological vindication of a peculiar set of beliefs that happened to gain minor currency in the early 21st century West. There's no such thing as being proved right 'in the end', because history has no end.

    Still, your idea has a mirror image in that of conservative pessimism, which dictates that one day the forces of chaos and entropy will indeed inevitably win and drag us all down into their soggy mire.

    But what do we say to the God of Woke? Not today!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Arguably GLT should be switched off for the second half.

    EDIT: The game should be null and void if it’s confirmed that GLT has failed.

    Sky are reporting that the referee’s watch did vibrate and flash for a goal ... during the half-time break.
    Imagine if that relegates West Ham!
    Fans of the Blades will take that.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Arguably GLT should be switched off for the second half.

    EDIT: The game should be null and void if it’s confirmed that GLT has failed.

    Sky are reporting that the referee’s watch did vibrate and flash for a goal ... during the half-time break.
    Sounds like grounds for legal challenge to me!
    When I look at the ramifications of relegation this season from the PL it is entirely possible some of the relegated clubs could be utterly destroyed.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    rpjs said:

    dixiedean said:

    Tories: Marxism is evil.
    Others: But what about all those RCP ones you employ?
    Tories: Splendid fellows. Radical free thinkers don't cha know!

    Still think the ex-RCP comrades are secretly working to overthrow capitalism from the inside by making it so unbearable that the masses will have no choice but to start a revolution. Nothing else makes sense.
    I heard the funny story of a Maoist in Switzerland who followed the "long march through the institutions" plan to advance into senior positions in society, ready for the revolution. I knew him slightly (though I only heard about his nefarious plan later), and the pharmaceutical company (Ciba-Geigy) was vaguely aware that he had radical political ideas but felt they were not a proper matter for the company to investigate, so they were happy to use his undoubted talents. He did indeed achieve a senior position in the company and was poised to assist the masses when they rose up. At that point, his party fell apart and dissolved itself, and Maoism itself started to seem an outdated idea.

    What to do? He shrugged and settled down to a career as a good senior manager. He, and the company, as as far as I could tell the Swiss masses were all content with the outcome. I'm not sure what the moral is.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Tony Connolly write up on the UK EU bust up over extradition:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/0617/1148078-eu-uk-extradition-post-brexit/

    According to the House of Commons Library, extradition requests to the UK under the EAW increased from 1,865 in 2004 to 12,613 in 2015.

    Requests made by the UK to other Member States went up from 96 to 228 per year over the same period.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Willie Thorne has died.

    Willie Thorne: Snooker favourite dies aged 66
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/snooker/53076861
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Genius from the leader of the free world:

    "If we stop testing right now, we'd have very few cases, if any," Trump said Monday
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Munira Mirza is the bigoted Left's worst nightmare

    The No 10 adviser tasked with a new racial equality commission refuses to bend to identity politics
    RAKIB EHSAN"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/16/munira-mirza-bigoted-lefts-worst-nightmare/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

    Extremely refreshing and important. The identitarian left is about to discover that genuine diversity comes in thought as well as in immutable characteristics...
    As refreshing as appointing a homeopath to spearhead a review into cancer treatments.
    More like appointing Galileo to research astronomy rather than leaving it in the hands of the Catholic Inquisition...
    If Galileo was a "solar system skeptic", yes.
    I think you'll find that almost all scientists are sceptics by nature - it's what distinguishes science from religion. And my goodness it's time for the religion of woke to experience its Enlightenment...

    p.s. If you don't like 'Wokeists', then how about 'Egregorotes', as ἐγρηγορότες? Though Omnium's probably hit upon the correct vernacular already.
    But you know what I mean.

    Your problem is that you're on the wrong side of history. Really don't envy you that. It's a place littered with bitterness and disappointment.
    Wrong side of today's history is the Labour party - and the description fits.

    Tomorrow's history - who knows.
    They were on the wrong side of history on Dec 12th 2019. This is undeniable. But that's history now.
This discussion has been closed.