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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It appears Sir Keir Starmer has made a great first impression

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  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    THIS is incredible. Sky News caught in the most outrageous lie

    A compilation of some of the violence by Black Lives Matter protesters at Waterloo Station - you can hear them chanting "fuck EDL". It speaks for itself.

    Sky calmly says these are the "counter demonstrators, who came to defend statues"

    I mean, I'm not one for grassy knolls, but Jesus

    https://twitter.com/SE17_Ronnie/status/1272172439020191744?s=20

    I met the EDL, when they were doing their city marches a few years ago. What a bunch of total arseholes they were, rampaging through the city intimidating ordinary folk.
    Absolute rotters, no doubt. Hoons and morons. But we have no idea who THESE guys are and of course no idea at all whether they are EDL.

    All we know is that they were lone white men caught on their own in the wrong place and beaten near to death because they were white. The fact you can't bring yourself to condemn this, in even the most desultory way, speaks many many volumes
    I condemn all mob violence, doesn't everyone?
    And yet, you didn't. Your first reaction was to scoff at EDL, even as you watched people get beaten half to death
    The EDL go to provoke mob violence, so condemning them is a reasonable place to start.
    If a black man were beaten by a mob of whites they way that man was yesterday at Waterloo Station, and the only arrest, and only negative comments from the left and media concerned a black man having a piss up a wall when there are no public toilets open, no pubs, no restaurants, no hotels, nowhere to go, then we would have race riots even more quickly than we are going to now
    I think the police now do better arrest tactics. After the Duggan riots there was a lot of doorknocking in the early mornings for weeks after, and quite a few convictions.

    The police tactics at these events seem to be contain and disrupt violence, and to gather evidence for later arrests and conviction. Arrests in the heat of the moment are likely to inflame matters.
    Well thats good to hear.

    Let's hope that a lot of the fuel for these violent protests was months of pent up frustration at being locked inside. Young men like to be out and about, and a lot of them like to fight too
    The football is back next weekend, all day Premier League, it will be quieter.

    And even with the protests there is actually less violence going on than normal because the pubs are (generally) shut. It is just more concentrated in a particular time and place.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    tlg86 said:

    I would liken Starmer to any new English football manager.

    They come in with huge hopes on their shoulders that they just HAVE to be better than the last guy.

    And then they have to face Germany.

    Let's see how Starmer acquits himself when the report into endemic anti-semitism in the Labour Party gets published. It's not like he hasn't had years in the Shadow Cabinet to prepare his answers.

    You assume that the media care about that any more.
    I’m pretty sure they would care a great deal. After all it doesn’t happen oft...

    Oh, sorry, did you mean anti-Semitism not England beating Germany?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    I would liken Starmer to any new English football manager.

    They come in with huge hopes on their shoulders that they just HAVE to be better than the last guy.

    And then they have to face Germany.

    Let's see how Starmer acquits himself when the report into endemic anti-semitism in the Labour Party gets published. It's not like he hasn't had years in the Shadow Cabinet to prepare his answers.

    And there is the issue of money. I don't know how serious it was, but there was speculation that the legal costs etc of individuals suing the party after the report comes out would bankrupt Labour.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    tlg86 said:

    I would liken Starmer to any new English football manager.

    They come in with huge hopes on their shoulders that they just HAVE to be better than the last guy.

    And then they have to face Germany.

    Let's see how Starmer acquits himself when the report into endemic anti-semitism in the Labour Party gets published. It's not like he hasn't had years in the Shadow Cabinet to prepare his answers.

    You assume that the media care about that any more.
    They don't. It was a Corbyn thing.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    ydoethur said:

    I would liken Starmer to any new English football manager.

    They come in with huge hopes on their shoulders that they just HAVE to be better than the last guy.

    And then they have to face Germany.

    Let's see how Starmer acquits himself when the report into endemic anti-semitism in the Labour Party gets published. It's not like he hasn't had years in the Shadow Cabinet to prepare his answers.

    It’s going to be very awkward.

    What Jennie Formby was thinking in compiling that internal report I do not know, but it was absolutely damning.

    What’s even more bizarre is she seemed to think it was exculpatory.
    The ECHR report on anti semitism will be Starmer's first big test

    If any of his current mps, or even Corbyn, are called out will he throw them out of the labour party
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    ydoethur said:

    I would liken Starmer to any new English football manager.

    They come in with huge hopes on their shoulders that they just HAVE to be better than the last guy.

    And then they have to face Germany.

    Let's see how Starmer acquits himself when the report into endemic anti-semitism in the Labour Party gets published. It's not like he hasn't had years in the Shadow Cabinet to prepare his answers.

    It’s going to be very awkward.

    What Jennie Formby was thinking in compiling that internal report I do not know, but it was absolutely damning.

    What’s even more bizarre is she seemed to think it was exculpatory.
    That is however a good thing - warts and all apparently excused is better than whitewash.

    Labour are the most racist party to have ever existed in the UK. They're certainly too the most anti-racist party. In my view making race an issue at any time is a mistake.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:
    I hate Donald Trump.

    But:

    If (if) it was slippery, that’s how I would have walked down it.

    And the instant he was back on firm ground, he straightened up and seemed fine again.

    I think we need to be a bit careful that we don’t have what happened with Hilary Clinton, where a bad migraine became a brain tumour.

    He’s obviously struggling mentally (his Twitter feed proves that) and he never was fit to be president, but let’s go easy on the illness rumours. We don’t want to play into the hands of his nuttier supporters.
    On the other hand it does look like he has an issue with the right side of his body.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1271820635040362497?s=21
    That means you have the shakes.

    It's happened to me at times when lots of people are looking at me and I'm feeling tense.

    It could be something medical in his case since one wouldn't expect it to be nerves.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:
    I hate Donald Trump.

    But:

    If (if) it was slippery, that’s how I would have walked down it.

    And the instant he was back on firm ground, he straightened up and seemed fine again.

    I think we need to be a bit careful that we don’t have what happened with Hilary Clinton, where a bad migraine became a brain tumour.

    He’s obviously struggling mentally (his Twitter feed proves that) and he never was fit to be president, but let’s go easy on the illness rumours. We don’t want to play into the hands of his nuttier supporters.
    On the other hand it does look like he has an issue with the right side of his body.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1271820635040362497?s=21
    That means you have the shakes.

    It's happened to me at times when lots of people are looking at me and I'm feeling tense.

    It could be something medical in his case since one wouldn't expect it to be nerves.
    The Hattie's!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    ydoethur said:

    I would liken Starmer to any new English football manager.

    They come in with huge hopes on their shoulders that they just HAVE to be better than the last guy.

    And then they have to face Germany.

    Let's see how Starmer acquits himself when the report into endemic anti-semitism in the Labour Party gets published. It's not like he hasn't had years in the Shadow Cabinet to prepare his answers.

    It’s going to be very awkward.

    What Jennie Formby was thinking in compiling that internal report I do not know, but it was absolutely damning.

    What’s even more bizarre is she seemed to think it was exculpatory.
    One constant in the whole discrimination thing is the occurrence of people who believe, quite sincerely, that their behaviour is fine. Even commendable....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1272199065737011203

    First Cabinet minister to go? Good excuse for a reshuffle?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andrew said:

    Rejoice oh ye MAGAers, because Trump is +2 on Biden!!!


    (in Arkansas)

    :smile:

    I sense that I've called this one earlier and righter than I've ever called anything.

    Trump is utterly fucked and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

    God bless America. They have their issues - hence 2016 - but they are not Moron Nation.
    3 million more Americans voted for Hillary than for Trump!
    Be double that this time - ☺

    Quite probably, Biden has people working for him who can read the electoral college map.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andrew said:

    Rejoice oh ye MAGAers, because Trump is +2 on Biden!!!


    (in Arkansas)

    :smile:

    I sense that I've called this one earlier and righter than I've ever called anything.

    Trump is utterly fucked and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

    God bless America. They have their issues - hence 2016 - but they are not Moron Nation.
    3 million more Americans voted for Hillary than for Trump!
    Be double that this time - ☺

    Quite probably, Biden has people working for him who can read the electoral college map.
    Electoral Kindergarten in Trump's case :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    eadric said:

    THIS is incredible. Sky News caught in the most outrageous lie

    A compilation of some of the violence by Black Lives Matter protesters at Waterloo Station - you can hear them chanting "fuck EDL". It speaks for itself.

    Sky calmly says these are the "counter demonstrators, who came to defend statues"

    I mean, I'm not one for grassy knolls, but Jesus

    https://twitter.com/SE17_Ronnie/status/1272172439020191744?s=20

    I met the EDL, when they were doing their city marches a few years ago. What a bunch of total arseholes they were, rampaging through the city intimidating ordinary folk.
    Absolute rotters, no doubt. Hoons and morons. But we have no idea who THESE guys are and of course no idea at all whether they are EDL.

    All we know is that they were lone white men caught on their own in the wrong place and beaten near to death because they were white. The fact you can't bring yourself to condemn this, in even the most desultory way, speaks many many volumes
    I condemn all mob violence, doesn't everyone?
    And yet, you didn't. Your first reaction was to scoff at EDL, even as you watched people get beaten half to death
    The EDL go to provoke mob violence, so condemning them is a reasonable place to start.
    If a black man were beaten by a mob of whites they way that man was yesterday at Waterloo Station, and the only arrest, and only negative comments from the left and media concerned a black man having a piss up a wall when there are no public toilets open, no pubs, no restaurants, no hotels, nowhere to go, then we would have race riots even more quickly than we are going to now
    I think the police now do better arrest tactics. After the Duggan riots there was a lot of doorknocking in the early mornings for weeks after, and quite a few convictions.

    The police tactics at these events seem to be contain and disrupt violence, and to gather evidence for later arrests and conviction. Arrests in the heat of the moment are likely to inflame matters.
    Well thats good to hear.

    Let's hope that a lot of the fuel for these violent protests was months of pent up frustration at being locked inside. Young men like to be out and about, and a lot of them like to fight too
    Were you in Whitehall yesterday? :lol:
    You accusing him of being SeanT?

    I hope you have a good lawyer on standby...
    I thought I was SeanT!
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:
    I hate Donald Trump.

    But:

    If (if) it was slippery, that’s how I would have walked down it.

    And the instant he was back on firm ground, he straightened up and seemed fine again.

    I think we need to be a bit careful that we don’t have what happened with Hilary Clinton, where a bad migraine became a brain tumour.

    He’s obviously struggling mentally (his Twitter feed proves that) and he never was fit to be president, but let’s go easy on the illness rumours. We don’t want to play into the hands of his nuttier supporters.
    On the other hand it does look like he has an issue with the right side of his body.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1271820635040362497?s=21
    That means you have the shakes.

    It's happened to me at times when lots of people are looking at me and I'm feeling tense.

    It could be something medical in his case since one wouldn't expect it to be nerves.
    He maybe forgot how tall he was and couldn't find his mouth.

    Happens.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    The Irish Times have a diverting little article today about the removal of the statue of Queen Victoria which used to stand in Dublin in front of the Dáil and wasn't removed until 1948!

    I found that amazing in the current context - the orthodoxy in recent days is that statue-toppling is a necessity and inevitability in the sort of circumstances that saw Irish independence from Britain - but apparently a statue of George II survived until 1937, Nelson until 1966 and there is still a statue of Prince Albert, and an arch commemorating the part played by the Royal Irish Fusiliers in the Second Boer War, if not others I haven't come across yet.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:
    I hate Donald Trump.

    But:

    If (if) it was slippery, that’s how I would have walked down it.

    And the instant he was back on firm ground, he straightened up and seemed fine again.

    I think we need to be a bit careful that we don’t have what happened with Hilary Clinton, where a bad migraine became a brain tumour.

    He’s obviously struggling mentally (his Twitter feed proves that) and he never was fit to be president, but let’s go easy on the illness rumours. We don’t want to play into the hands of his nuttier supporters.
    On the other hand it does look like he has an issue with the right side of his body.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1271820635040362497?s=21
    That means you have the shakes.

    It's happened to me at times when lots of people are looking at me and I'm feeling tense.

    It could be something medical in his case since one wouldn't expect it to be nerves.
    The Hattie's!
    New one on me. But I get it.

    Speaking of which, I was just talking about Ray Winstone earlier - as a possible Tory candidate for Mayor to run against Sadiq Khan.

    Suppose he'd get your vote.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    tlg86 said:

    I would liken Starmer to any new English football manager.

    They come in with huge hopes on their shoulders that they just HAVE to be better than the last guy.

    And then they have to face Germany.

    Let's see how Starmer acquits himself when the report into endemic anti-semitism in the Labour Party gets published. It's not like he hasn't had years in the Shadow Cabinet to prepare his answers.

    You assume that the media care about that any more.
    Well if they care less about that than Cummings driving to Durham, I think I know where I'll stand on the media in this country....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andrew said:

    Rejoice oh ye MAGAers, because Trump is +2 on Biden!!!


    (in Arkansas)

    :smile:

    I sense that I've called this one earlier and righter than I've ever called anything.

    Trump is utterly fucked and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

    God bless America. They have their issues - hence 2016 - but they are not Moron Nation.
    3 million more Americans voted for Hillary than for Trump!
    Be double that this time - ☺
    Quite probably, Biden has people working for him who can read the electoral college map.
    I was talking about the PV there but - yes - they will surely be more savvy on the EC front this time. Just in case it is NOT a landslide.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    The Irish Times have a diverting little article today about the removal of the statue of Queen Victoria which used to stand in Dublin in front of the Dáil and wasn't removed until 1948!

    I found that amazing in the current context - the orthodoxy in recent days is that statue-toppling is a necessity and inevitability in the sort of circumstances that saw Irish independence from Britain - but apparently a statue of George II survived until 1937, Nelson until 1966 and there is still a statue of Prince Albert, and an arch commemorating the part played by the Royal Irish Fusiliers in the Second Boer War, if not others I haven't come across yet.

    Technically, Ireland didn't become a republic till 1948. If they had waited just a year, they could have joined India as the first two republics inside the Commonwealth....
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Firstly, is there actually a domestic scientific consensus behind the necessity for maintaining the two metre rule? There's certainly no such thing internationally.

    Secondly, after everything that's already happened - what turned out to be the baseless panic over people flocking to the parks, the VE Day street parties, the lifting of all limits on outdoor exercise (such that levels of running, cycling and public park use are now well in excess of pre-pandemic levels,) and finally several weeks of mass demonstrations following the killing of George Floyd - you would've thought that further evidence that the two metre rule was overkill was no longer required, at least in outdoor settings.

    If the two metre rule for all outdoor activity at least isn't consigned to the dustbin in time for the next phase of unlocking on July 4th, then we should ask serious questions as to why it is still regarded as necessary.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Not sure I'd call this the result of lockdown (rather the public response), but the visual is interesting:

    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1272107759585165313
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    Not to Trump. But otherwise - yes it would be worth considering.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andrew said:

    Rejoice oh ye MAGAers, because Trump is +2 on Biden!!!


    (in Arkansas)

    :smile:

    I sense that I've called this one earlier and righter than I've ever called anything.

    Trump is utterly fucked and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

    God bless America. They have their issues - hence 2016 - but they are not Moron Nation.
    3 million more Americans voted for Hillary than for Trump!
    Be double that this time - ☺
    Quite probably, Biden has people working for him who can read the electoral college map.
    I was talking about the PV there but - yes - they will surely be more savvy on the EC front this time. Just in case it is NOT a landslide.
    The Electoral Kindergarten is just a means for LOSERS like Dickhead Donald to get into the White House.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    I hadnt realised they were doing that! $600 a week unemployment benefit is very generous! Not sure why they went so high when about a third of workers earn less than that?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    Andrew said:

    Not sure I'd call this the result of lockdown (rather the public response), but the visual is interesting:

    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1272107759585165313

    Its probably got more to do with furloughs and 'working from home' and a head in the sand belief that the world is going to provide a living for them.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    I don't generally believe that about elections, but certainly this time is going to make the situation Obama inherited in 2008 look like tea for two at Claridge's.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    You know if Trump loses in 2020, he could still run in 2024 :weary:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    CatMan said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    You know if Trump loses in 2020, he could still run in 2024 :weary:
    What? From prison?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    I hadnt realised they were doing that! $600 a week unemployment benefit is very generous! Not sure why they went so high when about a third of workers earn less than that?
    It is surprisingly generous for the US, but it's all going up in smoke on 31 July unless the Republicans blink:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/13/expiring-600-unemployment-benefits-are-essential-for-some-workers.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Andrew said:

    Not sure I'd call this the result of lockdown (rather the public response), but the visual is interesting:

    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1272107759585165313

    Its probably got more to do with furloughs and 'working from home' and a head in the sand belief that the world is going to provide a living for them.
    And yet still a 1K positive tests a day. This is one odd disease.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    Andrew said:

    Not sure I'd call this the result of lockdown (rather the public response), but the visual is interesting:

    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1272107759585165313

    That colour scale is an abomination. Compare Ireland (-44%) with Belgium (-40%).
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Andrew said:

    Not sure I'd call this the result of lockdown (rather the public response), but the visual is interesting:

    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1272107759585165313

    Its probably got more to do with furloughs and 'working from home' and a head in the sand belief that the world is going to provide a living for them.
    If its on 4 June as suggested by the graphic, that is after many countries have significantly eased their lockdowns, so of course they have more normal traffic than the UK did on that day. How did it look say 15 April in the middle of nearly everyone in lockdown?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    But none of this is why he is unelectable. In fact the crisis gave him a golden chance to turn it around. He just needed to do the basics and look a little bit like a president.

    It proved beyond him.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    What? From prison?

    From asylum in Moscow.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    I hadnt realised they were doing that! $600 a week unemployment benefit is very generous! Not sure why they went so high when about a third of workers earn less than that?
    It is surprisingly generous for the US, but it's all going up in smoke on 31 July unless the Republicans blink:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/13/expiring-600-unemployment-benefits-are-essential-for-some-workers.html
    It would be generous in Scandinavia!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andrew said:

    Not sure I'd call this the result of lockdown (rather the public response), but the visual is interesting:

    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1272107759585165313

    Most other European countries have already reopened non essential shops, cafes, restaurants and bars unlike the UK
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The Irish Times have a diverting little article today about the removal of the statue of Queen Victoria which used to stand in Dublin in front of the Dáil and wasn't removed until 1948!

    I found that amazing in the current context - the orthodoxy in recent days is that statue-toppling is a necessity and inevitability in the sort of circumstances that saw Irish independence from Britain - but apparently a statue of George II survived until 1937, Nelson until 1966 and there is still a statue of Prince Albert, and an arch commemorating the part played by the Royal Irish Fusiliers in the Second Boer War, if not others I haven't come across yet.

    Colston's boss

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_James_II,_Trafalgar_Square

    How long before the penny drops?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    I hadnt realised they were doing that! $600 a week unemployment benefit is very generous! Not sure why they went so high when about a third of workers earn less than that?
    It is still less percentage of earnings wise than the furlough money Rishi Sunak has given UK workers out of work due to the lockdown
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
    Fat lady yet to sing...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    HYUFD said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    I hadnt realised they were doing that! $600 a week unemployment benefit is very generous! Not sure why they went so high when about a third of workers earn less than that?
    It is still less percentage of earnings wise than the furlough money Rishi Sunak has given UK workers out of work due to the lockdown
    Much prefer the furlough scheme as keeping people employed into the restart of the economy is key.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    But none of this is why he is unelectable. In fact the crisis gave him a golden chance to turn it around. He just needed to do the basics and look a little bit like a president.

    It proved beyond him.
    Oh, I agree. All Trump had to do was spend lots of public money on all the pandemic essentials and sell himself as the strong protector of the nation - the crisis was fairly compatible with many aspects of his self-image. But he couldn't do it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    You could be right. Like the one Johnson just won over here.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    IshmaelZ said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
    Fat lady yet to sing...
    so youre backing him foe a second term then ?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:
    I hate Donald Trump.

    But:

    If (if) it was slippery, that’s how I would have walked down it.

    And the instant he was back on firm ground, he straightened up and seemed fine again.

    I think we need to be a bit careful that we don’t have what happened with Hilary Clinton, where a bad migraine became a brain tumour.

    He’s obviously struggling mentally (his Twitter feed proves that) and he never was fit to be president, but let’s go easy on the illness rumours. We don’t want to play into the hands of his nuttier supporters.
    On the other hand it does look like he has an issue with the right side of his body.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1271820635040362497?s=21
    That means you have the shakes.

    It's happened to me at times when lots of people are looking at me and I'm feeling tense.

    It could be something medical in his case since one wouldn't expect it to be nerves.
    The Hattie's!
    New one on me. But I get it.

    Speaking of which, I was just talking about Ray Winstone earlier - as a possible Tory candidate for Mayor to run against Sadiq Khan.

    Suppose he'd get your vote.
    I doubt it, I am not really a massive fan. I like Scum and Sexy Beast. People I knock about with, people from Essex/East London love all that, but it's not really my cup of tea, I am a nerd! I am sorry if I come across as an EDL type, I just contrast what I read on here with what I hear around me and the gap between the two outlooks is so big I find it interesting and worth commenting on. I think the best candidate for Mayor is Trevor Phillips
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    edited June 2020
    When I first saw that tweet, I thought it was a fake. I mean nobody could be stupid enough to post that...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Andrew said:


    What? From prison?

    From asylum in Moscow.
    The asylum is in Arkham, not Moscow.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Middle class lifestyle should mean literally that ie £20 to £40k per year, 1 foreign holiday per year and a semi detached and Ford Mondeo.

    The problem is too many graduates expect to earn £50k+ or even £100k+, 3 foreign holidays per year, a detached house and BMW when few graduates outside of STEM or law or economics graduates from Russell Group universities will get anywhere near that. Whoever is in power graduates need to be more realistic
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    One of the things which I've never understood is why blokes feel the need to piss on something rather than just take a piss on empty ground.

    What do other members of the ape family do ?
  • kinabalu said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    But none of this is why he is unelectable. In fact the crisis gave him a golden chance to turn it around. He just needed to do the basics and look a little bit like a president.

    It proved beyond him.
    Oh, I agree. All Trump had to do was spend lots of public money on all the pandemic essentials and sell himself as the strong protector of the nation - the crisis was fairly compatible with many aspects of his self-image. But he couldn't do it.
    George W, Bush would've handled this situation - at least politically - with ease. Call for rallying around the flag and look concerned. Easy. And in 2004, he faced a tougher opponent in Kerry.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    Andrew said:

    Not sure I'd call this the result of lockdown (rather the public response), but the visual is interesting:

    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1272107759585165313

    That colour scale is an abomination. Compare Ireland (-44%) with Belgium (-40%).
    Why does the scale run from -12% to -92%? Why not use a single-colour intensity scale?

    Sure, it could be incompetence, but it's hard not to think that the colour-scale has been chosen to create a misleading impression.

    Even when I've used a similar colour scale for presenting temperature anomalies I've normally done so with a white colour for values near-zero in order to avoid an artificially sharp contrast between negative and positive anomalies where the difference is small (and so not notable). This sort of stuff is really important to get right.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Mrs B has spent the last 10 years s offshoring UK jobs to India and Poland for her multinational employer. Oddly the sister companies in France and Germany don't do this.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't see Farage returning as a major force post- Brexit. Any party he led would be deprived of the oxygen of publicity readily provided by the EU parliamentary elections.
    Not to mention deprived of the oxygen of publicity from the European Parliament.
    Tommy Robinson found an audience, I'm sure Tommy Robinson lite (i.e. Farage) will find one - and I suspect it will be bigger than many expect it to be.
    Tommy Robinson, like his spiritual heir, found no democratic traction under FPTP. It was the EP elections that gave him the oxygen of publicity too.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Not to state the obvious, but there is a significant practical difference between pissing into a loo and pissing beside it.

    So people tell me, anyway.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    One of the things which I've never understood is why blokes feel the need to piss on something rather than just take a piss on empty ground.

    What do other members of the ape family do ?
    Don't know about apes but could be related to the fact we're used to pissing into a toilet/urinal so we pick a tree/fence etc that will take its place.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    HYUFD said:



    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Middle class lifestyle should mean literally that ie £20 to £40k per year, the problem is too many graduates expect to earn £50k+ or even £100k+ when few graduates outside of STEM or law or economics graduates from Russell Group universities will get anywhere near that. Whoever is in power graduates need to be more realistic
    For at least the last 75 years every generation has been richer than their parents until this one. Yes the youngsters need to be more realistic, but their parents and grandparents need to be more understanding, and governments need to increase asset taxes and reduce employment taxes.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Middle class lifestyle should mean literally that ie £20 to £40k per year, the problem is too many graduates expect to earn £50k+ or even £100k+ when few graduates outside of STEM or law or economics graduates from Russell Group universities will get anywhere near that. Whoever is in power graduates need to be more realistic
    My definition of middle class is that you can afford the average house in your area.

    If you can't then you're not.

    In much of the country people cannot even if they have middle class backgrounds and middle class educations.

    Which is what I refer to in middle class regression.

    When the people who are suffering from this middle class regression learn that working class people from working class backgrounds can afford to own houses in other parts of the country a source of resentment arises.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    edited June 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Andrew said:


    What? From prison?

    From asylum in Moscow.
    The asylum is in Arkham, not Moscow.
    No, they knocked it down a few years back! Fortunately AFTER I left there in 2010 :lol:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_for_Medical_Research
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
    @rcs1000 can better phrase the damage Trump has done to the Republic than I can, but he has done some of it. The damage to democratic and western norms that Trump has wilfully done is not insignificant.
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
    The date of reporting will be a bit messed up for 5 and 6 June though, since the number of positive (Pillar 1) tests for England reported between 7-10 June was extremely variable 228, 92, 651 and 63. This is rather more variable than usual (e.g., 11-14 June have reported 304, 392, 372, and 292 cases respectively) and so the differences are not perhaps too surprising.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
    @rcs1000 can better phrase the damage Trump has done to the Republic than I can, but he has done some of it. The damage to democratic and western norms that Trump has wilfully done is not insignificant.
    I could argue the same about Obama and his failure to read China which arguably casued more damage . All of them make mistakes but yelling saint or sinner doesn't help reach an objective evaluation of what they have done.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited June 2020
    @stodge - I think for established employees it's fine. Where it gets tricky is getting new starters up to speed. Building relationships remotely is quite difficult, so that's where I think an office will continue to have a role.

    But yeah, I don't want to go back to paying £4,500 a year for the privilege of commuting an hour each way a day.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    One of the things which I've never understood is why blokes feel the need to piss on something rather than just take a piss on empty ground.

    What do other members of the ape family do ?
    Don't know about apes but could be related to the fact we're used to pissing into a toilet/urinal so we pick a tree/fence etc that will take its place.
    https://www.channel4.com/news/chimps-mimic-fable-by-spitting-and-urinating

    but it is perhaps not what you want ...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Middle class lifestyle should mean literally that ie £20 to £40k per year, the problem is too many graduates expect to earn £50k+ or even £100k+ when few graduates outside of STEM or law or economics graduates from Russell Group universities will get anywhere near that. Whoever is in power graduates need to be more realistic
    My definition of middle class is that you can afford the average house in your area.

    If you can't then you're not.

    In much of the country people cannot even if they have middle class backgrounds and middle class educations.

    Which is what I refer to in middle class regression.

    When the people who are suffering from this middle class regression learn that working class people from working class backgrounds can afford to own houses in other parts of the country a source of resentment arises.
    I think its more personal. When their parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents say but why dont you buy instead of rent without any understanding that house prices are 10-15x average earnings of course it gets annoying. For me the annoyance is with the government (of all flavours) for QE deliberately inflating the value of assets and therefore reducing the value of work.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    Why should the "squeezed middle" support the Conservatives?

    The response from Conservatives when I ask about the debt and deficit is, to paraphrase Tess and Claudia, "keep borrowing".

    Now, if that's your definition of sound financial management, fine, but it's not mine.

    Conservatives used to go on about "living within our means" but the current crop of Liberal Unionists are vying with Labour to see which can be the higher-borrowing social democrat party.

    I'm no Tory (high, low or otherwise) but even I can see it's not sustainable to borrow ad infinitum.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
    Fat lady yet to sing...
    so youre backing him foe a second term then ?
    You don't feel that from now till 20/1/21 is a long time in politics?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    stodge said:

    Nearly evening all :)

    So instead of wittering on about statues and the like, I thought I'd witter on about the real revolution that has taken place since mid March and whether this is a societal development with far-reaching consequences or not.

    For many (I would argue), lockdown hasn't been too bad. Working at home, food delivered, social interaction via Zoom or whatever, still being paid and none of those annoying travel and lunch costs.

    As I talk to clients, some of whom are spending tens of thousands on re-configuring their office spaces for social distancing, there's one message coming through loud and clear - many office workers don't want to go back to their offices and don't see the need.

    This has any number of consequences starting with asking the question - is the age of commuting over? The notion of travelling an hour, two hours or more from home to the office and back now seems absurd and futile.

    Commuting came because the evolution of rapid mass travel by train in particular opened up the country. The suburbs were the result - peaceful, well designed streets of houses near (initially) the station where the train took you to the city or the town where your office was located.

    Now, it literally doesn't matter where you work as long as the technology is robust enough. This has huge implications across a range of issues and, I would argue, will change our culture far more than statues and the like.

    On a slightly related note I was thinking a month back as to how much nicer things were then and would be permanently if the population was down by a third of half.

    Less pollution, quieter roads, cheaper housing, more countryside.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    tlg86 said:

    @stodge - I think for established employees it's fine. Where it gets tricky is getting new starters up to speed. Building relationships remotely is quite difficult, so that's where I think an office will continue to have a role.

    But yeah, I don't want to go back to paying £4,500 a year for the privilege of commuting an hour each way a day.

    Yes, it's a point Mrs Stodge has made to me but she is very reluctant to return at this time. I've had to deal with new starters and new clients remotely and the physical proximity just doesn't matter to me.

    We have gone strong on the social aspect of the work experience so non-work related gatherings, digitial cuppas and the like and sometimes a colleague will just contact me for a chat.

    Work isn't just about work - too many people are brainwashed into thinking it is.

    Companies are wasting fortunes on re-configuring office spaces which won't be used - quick anecdote, one firm I know prepared their large office to take 300 out of the normal 1200 staff with all the signage, social distancing and the like.

    They got 20 - yes, 20 people back in the first week.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Middle class lifestyle should mean literally that ie £20 to £40k per year, the problem is too many graduates expect to earn £50k+ or even £100k+ when few graduates outside of STEM or law or economics graduates from Russell Group universities will get anywhere near that. Whoever is in power graduates need to be more realistic
    My definition of middle class is that you can afford the average house in your area.

    If you can't then you're not.

    In much of the country people cannot even if they have middle class backgrounds and middle class educations.

    Which is what I refer to in middle class regression.

    When the people who are suffering from this middle class regression learn that working class people from working class backgrounds can afford to own houses in other parts of the country a source of resentment arises.
    I think its more personal. When their parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents say but why dont you buy instead of rent without any understanding that house prices are 10-15x average earnings of course it gets annoying. For me the annoyance is with the government (of all flavours) for QE deliberately inflating the value of assets and therefore reducing the value of work.
    People want someone to blame - it can be governments, oldies, people from different places, incomers, 'the rich' and anyone else but themselves.

    Of course sometimes there is justification for blaming others.

    But underlying that is that people now were just not as lucky as some others while still being very lucky on world or historic levels.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    stodge said:

    tlg86 said:

    @stodge - I think for established employees it's fine. Where it gets tricky is getting new starters up to speed. Building relationships remotely is quite difficult, so that's where I think an office will continue to have a role.

    But yeah, I don't want to go back to paying £4,500 a year for the privilege of commuting an hour each way a day.

    Yes, it's a point Mrs Stodge has made to me but she is very reluctant to return at this time. I've had to deal with new starters and new clients remotely and the physical proximity just doesn't matter to me.

    We have gone strong on the social aspect of the work experience so non-work related gatherings, digitial cuppas and the like and sometimes a colleague will just contact me for a chat.

    Work isn't just about work - too many people are brainwashed into thinking it is.

    Companies are wasting fortunes on re-configuring office spaces which won't be used - quick anecdote, one firm I know prepared their large office to take 300 out of the normal 1200 staff with all the signage, social distancing and the like.

    They got 20 - yes, 20 people back in the first week.
    If this is the new normal, then HS2 is a dead duck. My brother-in-law is on nights this weekend renewing the track as Staines. The railways are carrying on as normal (with the tax-payer picking up the tab). It is not sustainable.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Middle class lifestyle should mean literally that ie £20 to £40k per year, the problem is too many graduates expect to earn £50k+ or even £100k+ when few graduates outside of STEM or law or economics graduates from Russell Group universities will get anywhere near that. Whoever is in power graduates need to be more realistic
    My definition of middle class is that you can afford the average house in your area.

    If you can't then you're not.

    In much of the country people cannot even if they have middle class backgrounds and middle class educations.

    Which is what I refer to in middle class regression.

    When the people who are suffering from this middle class regression learn that working class people from working class backgrounds can afford to own houses in other parts of the country a source of resentment arises.
    I think its more personal. When their parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents say but why dont you buy instead of rent without any understanding that house prices are 10-15x average earnings of course it gets annoying. For me the annoyance is with the government (of all flavours) for QE deliberately inflating the value of assets and therefore reducing the value of work.
    People want someone to blame - it can be governments, oldies, people from different places, incomers, 'the rich' and anyone else but themselves.

    Of course sometimes there is justification for blaming others.

    But underlying that is that people now were just not as lucky as some others while still being very lucky on world or historic levels.
    Very true and I accept Im very lucky to live in a great location in the best city of the world. Would have been great to own, but that probably wont happen until I move out.

    I think there is a quite a big difference in blaming systems, governments and policies to blaming groups of people. I try to avoid the latter although of course will sometimes lapse, I dont see that much wrong in blaming the former.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    stodge said:


    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    Why should the "squeezed middle" support the Conservatives?

    The response from Conservatives when I ask about the debt and deficit is, to paraphrase Tess and Claudia, "keep borrowing".

    Now, if that's your definition of sound financial management, fine, but it's not mine.

    Conservatives used to go on about "living within our means" but the current crop of Liberal Unionists are vying with Labour to see which can be the higher-borrowing social democrat party.

    I'm no Tory (high, low or otherwise) but even I can see it's not sustainable to borrow ad infinitum.
    I'm sure there are PBers who will willingly defend Conservative economic management.

    But I'm not one of them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    Tribalism aside, can anyone really say, with hand on heart, that Boris Johnson is any good? If so, how?

    He's good at winning elections, doncha know?
    Two London Mayoralties
    Brexit (arguably)
    Tory Leadership
    GE 2019
    Cheating and chicanery for the most part. So what else can you tell us?
    That he's only good at winning elections? :lol:
    But not honestly, according to the rules. That is why the Conservatives are no longer trusted. They are cheats.

    Would you want to play cards with a Conservative?
    Have the Liberal Democrats returned the pensioners money that Michael Brown stole and gave them yet

    I know that your persuaded the electoral commission that it was a legal donation, but that doesn’t mean the source of funds was acceptable.

    Until you repay it your party is beneath contempt.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Starmer has surprised on the upside. I didn't vote for him but I'm quite happy with him so far.

    The big picture is that the election was won by persuading the Red Wallers that "Boris" shared their values and that he and his "Brexit" would improve their lives - but of course he doesn't and it won't. The opposite, in fact, in both cases.

    To win again next time, therefore, the Cons must hope that the Who were talking out of their backsides. And I don't believe they were - so I think Starmer is on his way to Downing St. It's more of a when than an if.

    The problem there is that Starmer doesn't share their values and doesn't seem interested in pretending that he does.

    Though if Starmer did reach Downing Street he'd have the joys of implementing 'export or starve' because you can be sure Boris and Sunak will have spent every penny which is available and then a whole load more.
    I don't mean the parochialism and xenophobia, I mean the aspiration for higher living standards and better public services. You must encourage the best and appeal to the best. I think Starmer will be well placed to do this once the shine has worn off the gaudy twinset of "Boris" the man and "Brexit" the mis-sold dream.

    I do agree with you that Johnson and Sunak will pursue a "scorched earth" policy as regards the public finances.

    But there is always this -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

    Politicians of all stripes can pretend to believe in this in order to liberate themselves from fiscal restraint.
    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.
    Middle class lifestyle should mean literally that ie £20 to £40k per year, the problem is too many graduates expect to earn £50k+ or even £100k+ when few graduates outside of STEM or law or economics graduates from Russell Group universities will get anywhere near that. Whoever is in power graduates need to be more realistic
    My definition of middle class is that you can afford the average house in your area.

    If you can't then you're not.

    In much of the country people cannot even if they have middle class backgrounds and middle class educations.

    Which is what I refer to in middle class regression.

    When the people who are suffering from this middle class regression learn that working class people from working class backgrounds can afford to own houses in other parts of the country a source of resentment arises.
    I think its more personal. When their parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents say but why dont you buy instead of rent without any understanding that house prices are 10-15x average earnings of course it gets annoying. For me the annoyance is with the government (of all flavours) for QE deliberately inflating the value of assets and therefore reducing the value of work.
    People want someone to blame - it can be governments, oldies, people from different places, incomers, 'the rich' and anyone else but themselves.

    Of course sometimes there is justification for blaming others.

    But underlying that is that people now were just not as lucky as some others while still being very lucky on world or historic levels.
    Very true and I accept Im very lucky to live in a great location in the best city of the world. Would have been great to own, but that probably wont happen until I move out.

    I think there is a quite a big difference in blaming systems, governments and policies to blaming groups of people. I try to avoid the latter although of course will sometimes lapse, I dont see that much wrong in blaming the former.
    Indeed. Don't hate the player, hate the game. We've had years of asset prices being hiked up by QE and low interest rates. It might be that no amount of QE can keep house prices at their current level in London and the South East.

    Of course, some people will have brought at the top of the market and I do feel genuine sympathy for them. But things could be about to improve for the next generation (assuming they can find employment).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    stodge said:


    But there is no 'encourage the best and appeal to the best' is there.

    Instead its 'get some immigrants in, they're cheap and servile and if anyone complains call them racist'.

    Labour can't help themselves here and no nostalgia trips about BHS restaurants (which were crap btw) will help.

    And while politicians can play monetary games wealth is a different issue - ultimately the rest of the world isn't going to create goods and services for this country to consume without getting something tangible in return.

    Now if Labour want to do some original thinking then they need to consider what's going to happen to all those with middle class upbringings and middle class education but who are unable to get achieve middle class lifestyles. What I refer to as middle class regression.

    Why should the "squeezed middle" support the Conservatives?

    The response from Conservatives when I ask about the debt and deficit is, to paraphrase Tess and Claudia, "keep borrowing".

    Now, if that's your definition of sound financial management, fine, but it's not mine.

    Conservatives used to go on about "living within our means" but the current crop of Liberal Unionists are vying with Labour to see which can be the higher-borrowing social democrat party.

    I'm no Tory (high, low or otherwise) but even I can see it's not sustainable to borrow ad infinitum.
    I'm sure there are PBers who will willingly defend Conservative economic management.

    But I'm not one of them.
    What not even our most excellent Chancellor George ? :-)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Post-Johnson government:

    PM - Sunak
    Chancellor - Hunt
    Foreign Secretary - Tugendhat
    Home Secretary - Patel

    I’d be fine with that. Patel’s not ideal but bearable
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Charles said:

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    Tribalism aside, can anyone really say, with hand on heart, that Boris Johnson is any good? If so, how?

    He's good at winning elections, doncha know?
    Two London Mayoralties
    Brexit (arguably)
    Tory Leadership
    GE 2019
    Cheating and chicanery for the most part. So what else can you tell us?
    That he's only good at winning elections? :lol:
    But not honestly, according to the rules. That is why the Conservatives are no longer trusted. They are cheats.

    Would you want to play cards with a Conservative?
    Have the Liberal Democrats returned the pensioners money that Michael Brown stole and gave them yet

    I know that your persuaded the electoral commission that it was a legal donation, but that doesn’t mean the source of funds was acceptable.

    Until you repay it your party is beneath contempt.
    Of course the tories have never had dodgy money have they
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    tlg86 said:

    stodge said:

    tlg86 said:

    @stodge - I think for established employees it's fine. Where it gets tricky is getting new starters up to speed. Building relationships remotely is quite difficult, so that's where I think an office will continue to have a role.

    But yeah, I don't want to go back to paying £4,500 a year for the privilege of commuting an hour each way a day.

    Yes, it's a point Mrs Stodge has made to me but she is very reluctant to return at this time. I've had to deal with new starters and new clients remotely and the physical proximity just doesn't matter to me.

    We have gone strong on the social aspect of the work experience so non-work related gatherings, digitial cuppas and the like and sometimes a colleague will just contact me for a chat.

    Work isn't just about work - too many people are brainwashed into thinking it is.

    Companies are wasting fortunes on re-configuring office spaces which won't be used - quick anecdote, one firm I know prepared their large office to take 300 out of the normal 1200 staff with all the signage, social distancing and the like.

    They got 20 - yes, 20 people back in the first week.
    If this is the new normal, then HS2 is a dead duck. My brother-in-law is on nights this weekend renewing the track as Staines. The railways are carrying on as normal (with the tax-payer picking up the tab). It is not sustainable.
    Alternatively even Manchester or Liverpool become commutable to London if you only need to be in the office once a week, along with everywhere en route.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    But none of this is why he is unelectable. In fact the crisis gave him a golden chance to turn it around. He just needed to do the basics and look a little bit like a president.

    It proved beyond him.
    Oh, I agree. All Trump had to do was spend lots of public money on all the pandemic essentials and sell himself as the strong protector of the nation - the crisis was fairly compatible with many aspects of his self-image. But he couldn't do it.
    Not even strong. Just not come over as an utter dick. It ought to have been possible. I was a little scared he'd manage it given my feelings about him and my betting position. I needn't have worried. The guy is beyond redemption. He can still do serious damage though as he falls. It's going to be interesting - in the Chinese sense of the word.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Not to state the obvious, but there is a significant practical difference between pissing into a loo and pissing beside it.

    So people tell me, anyway.
    I'm sure that'll be a devastatingly successful defence next time you pop into a church to spend a penny by the font.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
    @rcs1000 can better phrase the damage Trump has done to the Republic than I can, but he has done some of it. The damage to democratic and western norms that Trump has wilfully done is not insignificant.
    The recent Applebaum article is a must read for people who are sanguine about another 4 years of Trump.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    But none of this is why he is unelectable. In fact the crisis gave him a golden chance to turn it around. He just needed to do the basics and look a little bit like a president.

    It proved beyond him.
    Oh, I agree. All Trump had to do was spend lots of public money on all the pandemic essentials and sell himself as the strong protector of the nation - the crisis was fairly compatible with many aspects of his self-image. But he couldn't do it.
    George W, Bush would've handled this situation - at least politically - with ease. Call for rallying around the flag and look concerned. Easy. And in 2004, he faced a tougher opponent in Kerry.
    Exactly. That was all that was required. It would have given him a puncher's chance of re-election.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    Not to state the obvious, but there is a significant practical difference between pissing into a loo and pissing beside it.

    So people tell me, anyway.
    I'm sure that'll be a devastatingly successful defence next time you pop into a church to spend a penny by the font.
    What sort of a loser would do that when there are all the gravestones outside to aim at ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Surrey said:
    It’s pretty steep - on a road I would have a warning - may be 1:7 or something. In any event you’d normally end up running slightly down it, which would be undignified, and it takes some effort to slow walk down something like that
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    kinabalu said:

    That's just the icing on the cake. In less than 2 months the enhanced unemployment benefit of $600 a week is going to be withdrawn - the GOP has 'no appetite' to replace it - and renters' protection from eviction is going at almost the same time.

    In addition to Great Depression-like unemployment and tens of millions losing health insurance, there's going to be housing crisis of epic proportions.

    Trump needs a miracle over the next 5 months to hang on.
    and the Democrats if they win will sail straight in to a force 12 shitstorm

    is this one of those elections to lose ?
    No. The Republic will not survive four more years of Trump.
    you know people who ought to know better have been parroting that line since the previous election

    Amongst other things Trump was going to start WW3, create a fascist dictatorship, turn the USA in to a Russian vassal etc.

    None of it happened

    If he wins the USA will still be there in 2024
    @rcs1000 can better phrase the damage Trump has done to the Republic than I can, but he has done some of it. The damage to democratic and western norms that Trump has wilfully done is not insignificant.
    The recent Applebaum article is a must read for people who are sanguine about another 4 years of Trump.
    The Democrats threatened 4 years of Freddie Kruger instead we got Yosemite Sam
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    nichomar said:

    Charles said:

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    Tribalism aside, can anyone really say, with hand on heart, that Boris Johnson is any good? If so, how?

    He's good at winning elections, doncha know?
    Two London Mayoralties
    Brexit (arguably)
    Tory Leadership
    GE 2019
    Cheating and chicanery for the most part. So what else can you tell us?
    That he's only good at winning elections? :lol:
    But not honestly, according to the rules. That is why the Conservatives are no longer trusted. They are cheats.

    Would you want to play cards with a Conservative?
    Have the Liberal Democrats returned the pensioners money that Michael Brown stole and gave them yet

    I know that your persuaded the electoral commission that it was a legal donation, but that doesn’t mean the source of funds was acceptable.

    Until you repay it your party is beneath contempt.
    Of course the tories have never had dodgy money have they
    Asil Nadir?
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702
    Charles said:

    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    Tribalism aside, can anyone really say, with hand on heart, that Boris Johnson is any good? If so, how?

    He's good at winning elections, doncha know?
    Two London Mayoralties
    Brexit (arguably)
    Tory Leadership
    GE 2019
    Cheating and chicanery for the most part. So what else can you tell us?
    That he's only good at winning elections? :lol:
    But not honestly, according to the rules. That is why the Conservatives are no longer trusted. They are cheats.

    Would you want to play cards with a Conservative?
    Have the Liberal Democrats returned the pensioners money that Michael Brown stole and gave them yet

    I know that your persuaded the electoral commission that it was a legal donation, but that doesn’t mean the source of funds was acceptable.

    Until you repay it your party is beneath contempt.
    Pensioners? A bunch of millionaires with no common sense more like.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surrey said:
    I hate Donald Trump.

    But:

    If (if) it was slippery, that’s how I would have walked down it.

    And the instant he was back on firm ground, he straightened up and seemed fine again.

    I think we need to be a bit careful that we don’t have what happened with Hilary Clinton, where a bad migraine became a brain tumour.

    He’s obviously struggling mentally (his Twitter feed proves that) and he never was fit to be president, but let’s go easy on the illness rumours. We don’t want to play into the hands of his nuttier supporters.
    I agree. I am THE TrumpToaster but I don't see much wrong with that.

    And I recall hearing that he gets a touch of vertigo on descents.

    No big deal.
    From a betting point of view: perception of Trump's health may affect his chance of re-election. He's not helping himself when he lies (or gets confused) about matters related to his health either, in this case saying the slope was steep and that he ran the last 10 feet. What would have made it slippery anyway, in West Point? They must set these events up knowing that officiating dignitaries will be wearing ordinary shoes, not army boots.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Will we ever be free of Farage and his populist poison?

    I think most countries have a nasty right wing populist party with a significant support base. Why shouldn't we?
    Indeed, Canada and the Republic of Ireland are probably the only exceptions to that at the moment in the West
    I don't think we need four of them though.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240

    stodge said:

    Nearly evening all :)

    So instead of wittering on about statues and the like, I thought I'd witter on about the real revolution that has taken place since mid March and whether this is a societal development with far-reaching consequences or not.

    For many (I would argue), lockdown hasn't been too bad. Working at home, food delivered, social interaction via Zoom or whatever, still being paid and none of those annoying travel and lunch costs.

    As I talk to clients, some of whom are spending tens of thousands on re-configuring their office spaces for social distancing, there's one message coming through loud and clear - many office workers don't want to go back to their offices and don't see the need.

    This has any number of consequences starting with asking the question - is the age of commuting over? The notion of travelling an hour, two hours or more from home to the office and back now seems absurd and futile.

    Commuting came because the evolution of rapid mass travel by train in particular opened up the country. The suburbs were the result - peaceful, well designed streets of houses near (initially) the station where the train took you to the city or the town where your office was located.

    Now, it literally doesn't matter where you work as long as the technology is robust enough. This has huge implications across a range of issues and, I would argue, will change our culture far more than statues and the like.

    On a slightly related note I was thinking a month back as to how much nicer things were then and would be permanently if the population was down by a third of half.

    Less pollution, quieter roads, cheaper housing, more countryside.
    You get a lot of that benefit by living in not-London. I've had that for the last couple of years and am not totally convinced about returning.

    If we can arrange things so that people don't have to spend so much time and money on commuting to work, the benefits could be huge. Probably do a lot for the levelling up agenda as well.
This discussion has been closed.