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  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    “Protecting statutes” is the new euphemism for “looking for a ruck” I see

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1271781928572772355

    Is there still a global pandemic going on? Hard to tell these days.
    I always thought lockdown would collapse eventually as we moved into the hot days of Summer. I just didn’t anticipate that it would do so quite like this.

    Must go. I believe my current pet project, photographing surviving church pre-Reformation art in Kent, (the typical hobby of a “cultural vandal” like me I know) can restart next week so I have some country vicars to email. May throw in some random threats of “leftist” revolutionary violence too, but maybe not. Then again, with a name like that, the Rev Ravi Holy of Wye and Brook might appreciate it.
    Churchwardens, surely?

    So PB has a churchcrawler :-) .
    Thanks for the tip! I’m bigger on history than current religious practice I’m afraid. Will email the churchwarden, if Brook has one...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-

    capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
    I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion.
    No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
    But they meant well, as they shot people in the back of the head and kicked them into a ditch.

    The feels are the important bit.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    FF43 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mortimer said:

    kinabalu said:

    "That almost certainly means there won’t be a deal."

    I hold the opposite view.

    Two things can be ruled out. (i) An extension. (ii) An overnight move from frictionless trade to WTO. The first being politically impossible (for Johnson) and the second being utter lunacy on every level and from every perspective.

    Therefore there almost certainly WILL be a deal. And given the negotiating realities it will be largely on the EU's terms. So in the parlance of the Header, "Submission or No Deal" - the answer is Submission.

    But Johnson (as he did with the Withdrawal Agreement) will brand it otherwise. Submission will once again become triumph. I predict the phrase "Flexible Future Divergence" - or perhaps "Dynamic Democratic Alignment" - will be much heard. I know! But that's what we have come to with all this "leaving the EU" nonsense.

    Brexit. A great big sack of stupid, quite frankly. Total waste of time. Always was.

    I think you're underestimating the will to avoid any form of rule-taking from the EU on pretty much anything except exports into the EU. Not only in No 10, but in the Tory party and country at large.
    I think the need to avoid WTO trumps that. Ending FM is imo the one thing that Johnson must demonstrate occurs on 1st Jan 2021. The rest he can get away with fudging for now. And indeed forever, in my view, but certainly for now.
    I think he probabaly knows that even with a majority of 80, there are insufficient votes on the back benches for a treaty that ties us to taking EU rules forever.
    It’s now about the only possible piece of legislation guaranteed to wipe out the government’s majority overnight, and the government are well aware of that.

    The other would have been a deadline extension, but thankfully that has now passed.
    I still find the golden rule of Brexit holds true.

    Whatever reassures the Remain side (Gina Miller case, clever motions in the HoC, supreme court decision, there is bound to be an extension because Covid) always ends up hurting their cause.

    Several people have laughed at it over the years, but it holds pretty true....
    It's not that. It's because Remainers (and I have been guilty of that too) don't realise Brexiteers are totally uninterested in limiting the damage. Because Brexiteers don't think there is any damage to limit. Leavers have never had a plan for Brexit, not in 2016, not now, when they are supposedly implementing the wretched thing. But Leavers do hold beliefs, the key one being that Brexit is a Good Thing. If it's a Good Thing obviously you want it to be the quickest, hardest break possible.

    Remainers who know Brexit is a damaging thing for a host of specific and empirical reasons, even if we have to go through with it, look to limit that damage, unaware that Leavers have no interest in doing the same.
    Completely wrong as usual.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    Why don't the police just get out of the way and let the football hooligans and the Britain-haters have a proper ding-dong, to entertain the nation?

    Bit late for that - it's now Polis vs Footie Firms, at least in the Parliament Stadium.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    isam said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.

    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    I think thats fair comment
    Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
    fire up the well quite klaxon.

    that is, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings :(
    A water canon with some disinfectant soap in the mix would be quite useful around now.

    One thing the ultra left and the ultra right share is BO.

    If only a London Mayor had bought one.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.

    I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.

    We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.

    The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.

    I hope so too. All the lockdown rule breaking going on over the past few weeks is not on, especially after my folks have been locked away for 3 months. But the media has given it is a free pass, even Piers Moron, the ultimate lockdown hardliner.

    IMO, they are far greater public health risk than whatever Big Dom did in Durham.
    Has any credible witness actually come up with a way in which Cummings could have actually passed the virus to a person who wasn't in his car? As far as I can tell, he posed no public health risk.

    These protestors breaking lockdown are in a whole different world of areseholedom.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    Clearly representing his three loves of his life,

    Kilmarnock
    Kirk
    and Kippers
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    isam said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.

    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    I think thats fair comment
    Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
    fire up the well quite klaxon.

    that is, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings :(
    A water canon with some disinfectant soap in the mix would be quite useful around now.

    One thing the ultra left and the ultra right share is BO.

    If only a London Mayor had bought one.
    I find dandruff to be unique to the right though. Particularly, on the occasions I have been able to observe parades in NI, Orangemen for some reason. Maybe it’s the dark suits/shirts that make it show up.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Eadric, there's now a review of statues in Leeds underway.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Clearly representing his three loves of his life,

    Kilmarnock
    Kirk
    and Kippers
    It certainly can't be Kirkcaldy's footie club, that's for sure.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    DougSeal said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.

    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    I think thats fair comment
    Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
    fire up the well quite klaxon.

    that is, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings :(
    A water canon with some disinfectant soap in the mix would be quite useful around now.

    One thing the ultra left and the ultra right share is BO.

    If only a London Mayor had bought one.
    I find dandruff to be unique to the right though. Particularly, on the occasions I have been able to observe parades in NI, Orangemen for some reason. Maybe it’s the dark suits/shirts that make it show up.
    You got that close to the Orangies? Good God man - that deserves some kind of medal or compensation.

    The shinners were always very smelly - the ones in the balaclava's hadn't ever washed them, or the sweaters with the shiny elbow patches. Worried about shrinkage in the wash, maybe.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    "One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist" - said a bitter, miserable junkie with the usual extreme left views on what's Kosher
    Not googling so is it him? Is that a bit of Waters?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    I wonder what else 2020 is going to offer us for entertainment. This is fucking brilliant. All we need now is life on Mars and the queen megging it for the full nap hand
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what else 2020 is going to offer us for entertainment. This is fucking brilliant. All we need now is life on Mars and the queen megging it for the full nap hand

    The latter means 'deadpool' triumph for me, remember.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    Carnyx said:

    eadric said:

    Why don't the police just get out of the way and let the football hooligans and the Britain-haters have a proper ding-dong, to entertain the nation?

    Bit late for that - it's now Polis vs Footie Firms, at least in the Parliament Stadium.
    No, it's Lads versus AntiFa in Trafalgar Sq right now, on live TV. The cops got there just in time to prevent major beatings
    Reminds me of the Euros in France...when do the Russian MMA fighters turn up and give everybody a kicking?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what else 2020 is going to offer us for entertainment. This is fucking brilliant. All we need now is life on Mars and the queen megging it for the full nap hand

    The latter means 'deadpool' triumph for me, remember.
    The deadpool never forgets. I will decapitate a statue with detcord that its head may serve as the trophy.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,563
    edited June 2020
    Strange watching how things have changed. For my sins I used to get involved in a fair few anti-fascist demos in the early to mid 80s. This was before they all got organised under the AFA. We were mostly disrupting and breaking up NF/BNP type marches in London. There were always running fights through the streets but the police policy was to just let them happen until it looked like someone was going to get seriously injured. Usually when they were on the ground getting a kicking. Then they would wade in, beat off the attackers and arrest the 'victim' on the ground. Of course none of us were innocent victims so we were all fair game. Then they would carry them off to an ambulance and send them off to hospital. It was a remarkably effective, if totally unauthorised, way of policing the violence.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    In fairness it'c chilly and dreich under a North Sea haar in the east, and the met radar says it's been pishing on and off in Glasgow.

    Isn't that the CCTV that used to go on the blink whenever there was a pro-indy demo in the Square, at least when Slab were in charge there?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.

    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    I think thats fair comment
    Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
    fire up the well quite klaxon.

    that is, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings :(
    A water canon with some disinfectant soap in the mix would be quite useful around now.

    One thing the ultra left and the ultra right share is BO.

    If only a London Mayor had bought one.
    I find dandruff to be unique to the right though. Particularly, on the occasions I have been able to observe parades in NI, Orangemen for some reason. Maybe it’s the dark suits/shirts that make it show up.
    You got that close to the Orangies? Good God man - that deserves some kind of medal or compensation.

    The shinners were always very smelly - the ones in the balaclava's hadn't ever washed them, or the sweaters with the shiny elbow patches. Worried about shrinkage in the wash, maybe.
    I spent some time visiting a friend in Belfast in the long hot summer of 1995. I was surprised at how many parades there were and how many just happened without anyone batting an eyelid, even during that (IIRC) temporary cessation of the troubles. But the dandruff was obvious from yards away. Huge fecking flakes. The heat didn’t help I suppose.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Move over Darren Grimes, there's a new gun for hire in town.

    https://twitter.com/Barcajim3/status/1271720012655529984?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    I think when we look back it won't be that, it will be the mostly white mob pulling down a statue. The optics of a mob given freedom by the police to do so, like something from overthrow of Iraq then sparked open season on any statue you don't like, which has now led to the escalation.

    Its given a rally call for the far right racist knuckle draggers to mobilise around.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    "One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist" - said a bitter, miserable junkie with the usual extreme left views on what's Kosher
    Not googling so is it him? Is that a bit of Waters?
    In his dreams!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Better hope for a total wash out for the summer, otherwise I can see every weekend being like this.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Urquhart, reminiscent, as I said previously, of 2011 when the police bigwigs had their men do nothing and then the looting got even more out of control.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.

    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    I think thats fair comment
    Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
    fire up the well quite klaxon.

    that is, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings :(
    A water canon with some disinfectant soap in the mix would be quite useful around now.

    One thing the ultra left and the ultra right share is BO.

    If only a London Mayor had bought one.
    I find dandruff to be unique to the right though. Particularly, on the occasions I have been able to observe parades in NI, Orangemen for some reason. Maybe it’s the dark suits/shirts that make it show up.
    You got that close to the Orangies? Good God man - that deserves some kind of medal or compensation.

    The shinners were always very smelly - the ones in the balaclava's hadn't ever washed them, or the sweaters with the shiny elbow patches. Worried about shrinkage in the wash, maybe.
    I spent some time visiting a friend in Belfast in the long hot summer of 1995. I was surprised at how many parades there were and how many just happened without anyone batting an eyelid, even during that (IIRC) temporary cessation of the troubles. But the dandruff was obvious from yards away. Huge fecking flakes. The heat didn’t help I suppose.
    I remember the night of the Good Friday agreement, it was a lovely, warm night...

    The poor girl behind the bar who found an Irish friends backpack - she thought she had found a bomb. It was his dirty washing... almost as bad, in his case. The chorus of "For f&8ks sake X, you were supposed to decommission your undies weeks ago..."

    An American friend rang for help at 1am - locked out of his hotel. On the NI Border - in one of the fun bits. He'd tried ringing the police - who'd pretty much laughed at him..
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
    The one advantage of Scotland's truly dreadful climate, perhaps the worst in the world, is that you don't get large street demos and mass protests, because no one can be arsed to go out in the freezing mizzle
    You mean the smirr. MIzzle is poncy Southronese. But I quite like this weather. No risk of sunburn to this gingery freckled chap!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-

    capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
    I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion.
    No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
    Correct. For all the very considerable evils that Communist totalitarianism in practice has led to, the Nazi vision of the subjugation of all peoples to the single German master race, and the serious attempt to turn this vision into reality by brute force and genocide, this stands alone.

    I think most people, if they think about it properly, will feel the same.

    It's not a left v right thing.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    The Notting Hill riots say hi.
    I think you'll find that black people have been provoking outrage by existing and asking to be treated fairly for quite a while now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    Mr. Urquhart, reminiscent, as I said previously, of 2011 when the police bigwigs had their men do nothing and then the looting got even more out of control.

    Yeap. They went soft for 2-3 days and the real scumbags went look the plod are going easy because they are worried about seeming racist, get on the blower to the other gangs, we have looting to be doing.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Yes, completely agree
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    BLM have't been hijacked by politically savvy Marxists, they are politically savvy Marxists. Just like the extinction rebellion lot are e.g

    Gary McFarlane, a prominent member of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) who has condoned the shooting of racist police officers, has claimed on television to be a Black Lives Matter organiser while calling for “revolution”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hard-left-hijacks-black-lives-matter-movement-lpmfn3f2j

    Which isn't to say all those protesting / going on marches are, but you don't have to look very hard to find out the views of the leadership.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    We have a centrist establishment?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-

    capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
    I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion.
    No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
    Correct. For all the very considerable evils that Communist totalitarianism in practice has led to, the Nazi vision of the subjugation of all peoples to the single German master race, and the serious attempt to turn this vision into reality by brute force and genocide, this stands alone.

    I think most people, if they think about it properly, will feel the same.

    It's not a left v right thing.
    "Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea."

    Murderous violence was a feature of both ideologies, not a bug.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
    The one advantage of Scotland's truly dreadful climate, perhaps the worst in the world, is that you don't get large street demos and mass protests, because no one can be arsed to go out in the freezing mizzle
    There's always Heard Island in the Southern Ocean. More or less constant blizzards and 8+ on the Beaufort with an active volcano in the middle.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    "One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist" - said a bitter, miserable junkie with the usual extreme left views on what's Kosher
    Not googling so is it him? Is that a bit of Waters?
    In his dreams!
    Oh god, have I missed the obvious? Who is it then?

    The "bitter miserable junkie with the usual ..." bit, I mean, not the "one man's freedom fighter is another man's etc" (I know that one).

    I am not googling it. Totally refuse to do that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Was it only yesterday that we were getting the proposition that the some of the defacement was being done by cunning, right wing agents provocateurs? Things move so fast.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    People in doubt about BLM UK leadership...

    We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.

    We note the comments regarding not being a charity. A charity structure would not allow us the freedom and flexibility to do our political work in the ways we wish to do them.

    https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    I think when we look back it won't be that, it will be the mostly white mob pulling down a statue. The optics of a mob given freedom by the police to do so, like something from overthrow of Iraq then sparked open season on any statue you don't like, which has now led to the escalation.

    Its given a rally call for the far right racist knuckle draggers to mobilise around.
    If you were looking for a single totemic item to get the dander up of the Can't Be Arsed Party, then boarding up Churchill was a brilliant way to do it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Was it only yesterday that we were getting the proposition that the some of the defacement was being done by cunning, right wing agents provocateurs? Things move so fast.
    I'm slightly confused. Just who appear to be fighting the polis in London?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Not sure the pikachu's are practising correct social distancing...

    https://twitter.com/andycross8/status/1271796023648751616?s=20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-

    capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
    I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion.
    No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
    Correct. For all the very considerable evils that Communist totalitarianism in practice has led to, the Nazi vision of the subjugation of all peoples to the single German master race, and the serious attempt to turn this vision into reality by brute force and genocide, this stands alone.

    I think most people, if they think about it properly, will feel the same.

    It's not a left v right thing.
    Agreed. On the extremes there is not that much difference in scumsucking-ness :-) .
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Carnyx said:

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Was it only yesterday that we were getting the proposition that the some of the defacement was being done by cunning, right wing agents provocateurs? Things move so fast.
    I'm slightly confused. Just who appear to be fighting the polis in London?
    The provoked I assume, but now it appears that it was the politically savvy Marxists doing the provoking.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2020
    One striking thing about these protests is the numbers.

    Normally the far right protests in Britain really are two men and a dog affairs.

    A few more than that in central London, from what I can see on those clips.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited June 2020
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-

    capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
    I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion.
    No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
    Correct. For all the very considerable evils that Communist totalitarianism in practice has led to, the Nazi vision of the subjugation of all peoples to the single German master race, and the serious attempt to turn this vision into reality by brute force and genocide, this stands alone.

    I think most people, if they think about it properly, will feel the same.

    It's not a left v right thing.
    "Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea."

    Murderous violence was a feature of both ideologies, not a bug.
    Absolutely. Class hate or race hate? As bad as each other.

    Though for some reason only inciting racial hatred is a crime in this country.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the WWC and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Particularly if you read it in conjunction with that Guardian piece about going to live among The Head Count. Sanders of The River was less sneering....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    One striking thing about these protests is the numbers.

    Normally the far right protests in Britain really are two men and a dog affairs.

    A few more than that in central London, from what I can see on those clips.

    It’s the same in the US. In addition to the well published major protests in the big cities, there have been smaller protests in small town America across the country.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    The last election showed there is very little support for Owen Jones or his politics in working class England.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Dura_Ace said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
    The one advantage of Scotland's truly dreadful climate, perhaps the worst in the world, is that you don't get large street demos and mass protests, because no one can be arsed to go out in the freezing mizzle
    There's always Heard Island in the Southern Ocean. More or less constant blizzards and 8+ on the Beaufort with an active volcano in the middle.
    Kerguelen!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Carnyx said:

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Was it only yesterday that we were getting the proposition that the some of the defacement was being done by cunning, right wing agents provocateurs? Things move so fast.
    I'm slightly confused. Just who appear to be fighting the polis in London?
    Looks like a threesome between the polis, Antifa and the Tommy Robinson fan club.

    The sensible thing for the Blues to do at this point, is stand back and let the far-left and far-right muppets fight each other.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Yet the truly striking thing about the wave of protests across the world - which certainly hasn’t been lost upon black people - is the significant involvement of younger white people.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    Mr. Urquhart, reminiscent, as I said previously, of 2011 when the police bigwigs had their men do nothing and then the looting got even more out of control.

    Yeap. They went soft for 2-3 days and the real scumbags went look the plod are going easy because they are worried about seeming racist, get on the blower to the other gangs, we have looting to be doing.
    EMA - Electrical Merchandise Allowance.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Telling them that they think wrongly about the likes of Churchill and actually was a war criminal and massive racist fits into that category.

    It is Brexit rehashed, your a massive racist, because you want to control immigration. And now you are clearly a massive thick racist, because you like Churchill and are proud we won the war about the Nazis.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,223

    Not sure the pikachu's are practising correct social distancing...

    https://twitter.com/andycross8/status/1271796023648751616?s=20

    Undeniably masked, though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-

    capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
    I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion.
    No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
    Correct. For all the very considerable evils that Communist totalitarianism in practice has led to, the Nazi vision of the subjugation of all peoples to the single German master race, and the serious attempt to turn this vision into reality by brute force and genocide, this stands alone.

    I think most people, if they think about it properly, will feel the same.

    It's not a left v right thing.
    "Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea."

    Murderous violence was a feature of both ideologies, not a bug.
    The various strains of totalitarian marxism are a long way ahead on the body count compared to facsim though.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Telling them that they think wrongly about the likes of Churchill and actually was a war criminal and massive racist fits into that category.

    It is Brexit rehashed, your a massive racist, because you want to control immigration. And now you are clearly a massive thick racist, because you like Churchill and are proud we won the war about the Nazis.
    Perhaps if you call a man a racist for long enough, he has nowhere to go but to turn around and show you just how racist he can be.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    .
    IanB2 said:

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Yet the truly striking thing about the wave of protests across the world - which certainly hasn’t been lost upon black people - is the significant involvement of younger white people.
    Students are taught Marxism is the truth, and to protest if someone drops an H
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    The Notting Hill riots say hi.
    I think you'll find that black people have been provoking outrage by existing and asking to be treated fairly for quite a while now.
    Completely different.

    This is a new kind of culture war imported direct from the USA. Arguing against that is pointless.

    BLM is also a new kind of religion: there's an excellent essay on it in the Atlantic I think - I'll try and dig it out

    Again, I think you will find plenty of historical echoes in the current events. The anti racism movement has always borrowed language, tactics and ideas from the US civil rights movement, where the struggle had deeper roots for obvious reasons. The Bristol bus boycott for instance followed similar tactics by King. (Was it in Montgomery, AL? I can't remember). I bet you had plenty of people back then complaining that we didn't need any of that American nonsense here.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Nigelb said:

    Not sure the pikachu's are practising correct social distancing...

    https://twitter.com/andycross8/status/1271796023648751616?s=20

    Undeniably masked, though.
    Interesting that the peace of Japan is shown up here considering how that particular country deals with people of other races in the past and in the present.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    isam said:


    Students are taught Marxism is the truth, and to protest if someone drops an H

    Are you certain of this or is it just what you believe or is it a throwaway comment designed to provoke a response?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,223

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Telling them that they think wrongly about the likes of Churchill and actually was a war criminal and massive racist fits into that category...
    Does it ?
    I don’t know about the former, but it’s pretty clear from Churchill’s own words that he was a ‘massive racist’.

    That his view were shared by millions in his time doesn’t change that.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53033550
    .... Churchill told the Palestine Royal Commission that he did not admit wrong had been done to Native Americans or aboriginal Australians as "a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place".
    His supporters argue that he was by no means the only person to hold these sorts of views during the period.
    He also advocated the use of chemical weapons, "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes”...


    Is it sneering or condescending to note that ?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Pulpstar said:



    The various strains of totalitarian marxism are a long way ahead on the body count compared to facsim though.

    And the lucky citizenry of East Germany did not have to choose.

    They got both.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    The Notting Hill riots say hi.
    I think you'll find that black people have been provoking outrage by existing and asking to be treated fairly for quite a while now.
    What absolute bollox
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2020
    stodge said:

    isam said:


    Students are taught Marxism is the truth, and to protest if someone drops an H

    Are you certain of this or is it just what you believe or is it a throwaway comment designed to provoke a response?

    Training up recent graduates in the company I work for, I am not sure what they are taught. It's not Marxism, but it's not really much of anything else either.

    They are especially weak in critical thinking, English grammar and basic mathematics.

    That's not to say they aren't talented. They are. They have merely been royally ripped off by the people who have taught them.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Turned on sky news

    Heard some wanker blaming it all (racism) on capitalism

    Turned off sky news

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    edited June 2020
    Disgusting scenes in London today.

    Police are really going to have to enforce order.

    No quarter for mobs violently 'protecting' statues. No quarter for mobs violently 'attacking' statues.

    If order exits the stage, violence flourishes from both wings.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Floater said:

    Turned on sky news

    Heard some wanker blaming it all (racism) on capitalism

    Turned off sky news

    But remember, we mustn't call them Marxists or that might hurt their feelings...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    stodge said:

    isam said:


    Students are taught Marxism is the truth, and to protest if someone drops an H

    Are you certain of this or is it just what you believe or is it a throwaway comment designed to provoke a response?

    Pretty certain

    It was the case when I went to Uni 9 years ago. It was a very SWP heavy place, and I see the methods they tried to indoctrinate into the students in a lot of what the far left have done since. I guess when you have worked for a living for 18 years before you go, it's easier to see through the bullshit

    In my time they were trying to get the kids to march in protest at tuition fees. We overheard the lecturers in the pub saying "I've got a mortgage to pay!" whilst telling the kids it was all about broadening their minds. The teenagers locked themselves in the common room for a fortnight, not sure what that achieved
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
    The one advantage of Scotland's truly dreadful climate, perhaps the worst in the world, is that you don't get large street demos and mass protests, because no one can be arsed to go out in the freezing mizzle
    WE just lack the multitude of absolute arseholes that London has ( the right wing unionist nutters excepted) , the London cesspit is teeming with thugs, fascists and every bit of crap from left , right , racist and bigoted backgrounds you can imagine. Hope they knock lumps out of each other and the police finish of the scum left standing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,223
    A good biscuit story to unite all PBers.

    India’s Comfort Food Tells the Story of its Pandemic
    The country’s coronavirus response has affected Indians very differently. One thing unites them, though: a biscuit.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/06/india-biscuits-coronavirus-pandemic-migrant-workers/612619/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Floater said:

    Turned on sky news

    Heard some wanker blaming it all (racism) on capitalism

    Turned off sky news

    But remember, we mustn't call them Marxists or that might hurt their feelings...
    For a man who gets triggered as easily as by not being able to commemorate slave traders, hurt feelings are clearly something you specialise in
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited June 2020
    IanB2 said:

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Yet the truly striking thing about the wave of protests across the world - which certainly hasn’t been lost upon black people - is the significant involvement of younger white people.
    Sadly for the black people protesting genuine grievances, they will quickly discover that many of the young white people have a very different agenda - and see the black protesters simply as a means to their end of smashing up the state.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:

    Floater said:

    Turned on sky news

    Heard some wanker blaming it all (racism) on capitalism

    Turned off sky news

    But remember, we mustn't call them Marxists or that might hurt their feelings...
    For a man who gets triggered as easily as by not being able to commemorate slave traders, hurt feelings are clearly something you specialise in
    Your lot can't watch an episode of Fawlty Towers without getting triggered, you silly snowflake :lol:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
    The one advantage of Scotland's truly dreadful climate, perhaps the worst in the world, is that you don't get large street demos and mass protests, because no one can be arsed to go out in the freezing mizzle
    WE just lack the multitude of absolute arseholes that London has ( the right wing unionist nutters excepted) , the London cesspit is teeming with thugs, fascists and every bit of crap from left , right , racist and bigoted backgrounds you can imagine. Hope they knock lumps out of each other and the police finish of the scum left standing.
    Given house and rental prices in London, they’ve probably mostly travelled in from Essex ;)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Telling them that they think wrongly about the likes of Churchill and actually was a war criminal and massive racist fits into that category.

    It is Brexit rehashed, your a massive racist, because you want to control immigration. And now you are clearly a massive thick racist, because you like Churchill and are proud we won the war about the Nazis.
    Yes. That was exactly my point. Jones was on to this way before most.

    Difference is, his remedy was material redistribution in favour of the working class rather than - as with the right wing spirits behind Brexit - whipping up xenophobia and exploiting this to further a project that is not about benefiting the working class at all.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    stodge said:

    isam said:


    Students are taught Marxism is the truth, and to protest if someone drops an H

    Are you certain of this or is it just what you believe or is it a throwaway comment designed to provoke a response?

    Training up recent graduates in the company I work for, I am not sure what they are taught. It's not Marxism, but it's not really much of anything else either.

    They are especially weak in critical thinking, English grammar and basic mathematics.

    That's not to say they aren't talented. They are. They have merely been royally ripped off by the people who have taught them.
    The issue is that the universities now teach them what to think, as opposed to how to think.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Carnyx said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
    The one advantage of Scotland's truly dreadful climate, perhaps the worst in the world, is that you don't get large street demos and mass protests, because no one can be arsed to go out in the freezing mizzle
    You mean the smirr. MIzzle is poncy Southronese. But I quite like this weather. No risk of sunburn to this gingery freckled chap!
    Carnyx, far better than that horrible concrete frying pan , it is a shithole when the sun shines and fact it is full of arseholes and comic singers completes the picture. Cumbernauld is far nicer even on a dreich day.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316


    Perhaps if you call a man a racist for long enough, he has nowhere to go but to turn around and show you just how racist he can be.

    That would be an amazingly childish response. Perhaps they could listen & try to be a bit less racist? Is that really too much to ask?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Telling them that they think wrongly about the likes of Churchill and actually was a war criminal and massive racist fits into that category.

    It is Brexit rehashed, your a massive racist, because you want to control immigration. And now you are clearly a massive thick racist, because you like Churchill and are proud we won the war about the Nazis.
    Yes. That was exactly my point. Jones was on to this way before most.

    Difference is, his remedy was material redistribution in favour of the working class rather than - as with the right wing spirits behind Brexit - whipping up xenophobia and exploiting this to further a project that is not about benefiting the working class at all.
    It seems the working class preferred protectionism that allowed them access to local jobs at the going rate to being dragged to the bottom of the market then reimbursed with various kinds of dole money
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Might as well bring back live football with a crowd, can't see how it will change R now.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited June 2020
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Yet the truly striking thing about the wave of protests across the world - which certainly hasn’t been lost upon black people - is the significant involvement of younger white people.
    Sadly for the black people protesting genuine grievances, they will quickly discover that many of the young white people have a very different agenda - and see the black protesters simply as a means to their end of smashing up the state.
    It has been the case through history that revolutionaries have been perpetually disappointed by the absence of radicalism amongst the working classes, and protests and revolutions have always been fuelled by what we would describe as middle class younger people, from 1968 back through the French and Russian revolutions. Indeed there is a theory that protest and social unrest tends to peak when there is an excess of supply of aspiring middle class youngsters compared to the number of relatively privileged opportunities that their society is able to offer.

    Some even suggest that the slaughter and devastation of the English Wars of the Roses arose simply because the royalty of the time had children and grandchildren way in excess of the number of baronial positions available to them.

    Consider the future prospects for younger graduates in the immediate post-COVID society and maybe there is a bigger picture.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    Yet the truly striking thing about the wave of protests across the world - which certainly hasn’t been lost upon black people - is the significant involvement of younger white people.
    Sadly for the black people protesting genuine grievances, they will quickly discover that many of the young white people have a very different agenda - and see the black protesters simply as a means to their end of smashing up the state.
    The more you see this, the more you understand why Malcolm X wanted the white people *not* to join the movement...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Phil said:


    Perhaps if you call a man a racist for long enough, he has nowhere to go but to turn around and show you just how racist he can be.

    That would be an amazingly childish response. Perhaps they could listen & try to be a bit less racist? Is that really too much to ask?
    Look |I'm not going to apologise for these people. What they are doing is wrong.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    Oh mum, they've made me be a fascist.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316

    eadric said:

    isam said:

    eadric said:

    Black Lives Matter, a movement dedicated to racial equality, has provoked the first violent, racially tinged culture war in the history of the UK, and likely enabled the rise of a large, aggressive far right movement able to put large numbers of people on the street, not the normal pitiful crowd.

    Brilliant.

    They are defintely the smarter of the two though. The Football Lads Alliance didn't have the brains to give themselves a name that meant every soppy, old, white middle class wally felt unable to criticise them no matter what they did.
    BLM have been hijacked by some very politically savvy Marxists.

    This violent confrontation is exactly what they want, ideally white versus black. They WANT a Fascist party to rise, so they can polarise society and try and bring down the centrist Establishment
    BLM have't been hijacked by politically savvy Marxists, they are politically savvy Marxists. Just like the extinction rebellion lot are e.g

    Gary McFarlane, a prominent member of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) who has condoned the shooting of racist police officers, has claimed on television to be a Black Lives Matter organiser while calling for “revolution”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hard-left-hijacks-black-lives-matter-movement-lpmfn3f2j

    Which isn't to say all those protesting / going on marches are, but you don't have to look very hard to find out the views of the leadership.
    The SWP try and insert themselves into every protest movement going so this is hardly surprising news. Personally I’m a bit sceptical of any claims to "leadership" of any movement from an SWP representative.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    The last election showed there is very little support for Owen Jones or his politics in working class England.
    Sadly not. Variety of reasons for that. Have often given my analysis of GE19 so will not do again here. But his book "Chavs" is imo very good. It shows great insight into, and affection for, the working class. Which he is of course.

    Any case we all know who is really sneering at the working class. And there'll be hell to pay when they find out.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    If the people on the left (of the clip!) are the far right, in Newcastle, that is a very very high turnout for a place like that.

    Much higher than I would have expected.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Telling them that they think wrongly about the likes of Churchill and actually was a war criminal and massive racist fits into that category...
    Does it ?
    I don’t know about the former, but it’s pretty clear from Churchill’s own words that he was a ‘massive racist’.

    That his view were shared by millions in his time doesn’t change that.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53033550
    .... Churchill told the Palestine Royal Commission that he did not admit wrong had been done to Native Americans or aboriginal Australians as "a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place".
    His supporters argue that he was by no means the only person to hold these sorts of views during the period.
    He also advocated the use of chemical weapons, "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes”...


    Is it sneering or condescending to note that ?
    Sneering if you selectively quote him!


    “I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas.

    “I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.”

    - Winston S. Churchill: departmental minute (Churchill papers: 16/16), 12 May 1919.
    War Office
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    In Scotland we've now perfected the air shot defence. Huns, SDLers and Loyalists work themselves up to a red faced ferment, take a swing and there's nothing there. These lads might have to deface a few statues themselves to keep the righteous indignation going.

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271788852328509445?s=20

    https://twitter.com/IndigoFast/status/1271790759944093704?s=20

    Are you surprised they didn't turn out, look at the typically shite Scottish weather.

    London is lovely and sunny and hot
    Wasn't last week. Are you saying lefty streetfighters have more fortitude than today's Der Stalhelm wannabes?
    The one advantage of Scotland's truly dreadful climate, perhaps the worst in the world, is that you don't get large street demos and mass protests, because no one can be arsed to go out in the freezing mizzle
    Yes, famously the Red Clydeside uprising was put down with a bout of heavy rain.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Sandpit said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:


    Students are taught Marxism is the truth, and to protest if someone drops an H

    Are you certain of this or is it just what you believe or is it a throwaway comment designed to provoke a response?

    Training up recent graduates in the company I work for, I am not sure what they are taught. It's not Marxism, but it's not really much of anything else either.

    They are especially weak in critical thinking, English grammar and basic mathematics.

    That's not to say they aren't talented. They are. They have merely been royally ripped off by the people who have taught them.
    The issue is that the universities now teach them what to think, as opposed to how to think.
    This is one long term consequence of maximising the chances of pupils and student passing the exams rather than focussing on teaching well. This attitude is ingrained in the Engish education system.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    kinabalu said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).

    hth.
    Well I'm certainly agreeing on the 100%. Antifa being half as bad as the far right sounds a bit high to me. But I would need to mix with a bunch of them to verify that and I never have. Course, it depends on what your threshold is for cnut in the antifa context. Walker. Galloway. Wilkinson. This is my idea of a trio of cnuts on "our side" as it were. But Owen Jones, who I like and think has integrity and decent values, if he is a "cnut" in your eyes it means we probably have an irreconcilable definition delta.
    I hate the Manichaeanism of the 21st Century perhaps more than any other aspect of this benighted time. Owen Jones’s Guardian pieces are terrible but “Chavs” is a genuinely important book. It is possible to be critical of individual pieces of work without condemning the whole person.
    The growing tendency of the comfortable to sneer at the working class and the great dangers if this continued.

    "Chavs" was remarkably astute and prescient. I do not expect him to better it.
    Given we were talking about Gone With The Wind yesterday I do see parallels with our world.

    The plantocarcy are our comfortable middle classes, the slaves are our cheap and servile migrant workers and the poor whites / hillbillies are our white working class.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.

    The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
    The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-

    capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.

    The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.

    The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
    Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
    I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion.
    No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
    Correct. For all the very considerable evils that Communist totalitarianism in practice has led to, the Nazi vision of the subjugation of all peoples to the single German master race, and the serious attempt to turn this vision into reality by brute force and genocide, this stands alone.

    I think most people, if they think about it properly, will feel the same.

    It's not a left v right thing.
    "Sir, there is no settling the point of precedency between a louse and a flea."

    Murderous violence was a feature of both ideologies, not a bug.
    The various strains of totalitarian marxism are a long way ahead on the body count compared to facsim though.
    Which version blitzed London and other UK cities?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited June 2020
    Phil said:


    Perhaps if you call a man a racist for long enough, he has nowhere to go but to turn around and show you just how racist he can be.

    That would be an amazingly childish response. Perhaps they could listen & try to be a bit less racist? Is that really too much to ask?
    TBF he’s relatively new here, and hasn’t learned that childish responses are mostly reserved to Sean of this parish.
    eadric said:

    Whoah the Fa just chased the Antifa out of Trafalgar Sq. Proper ruck

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Defenders of a Churchill statue making Nazi salutes. I’m starting to get the impression, just maybe, that they are not quite as clued up about history as they think.

    https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136
This discussion has been closed.