Bloody hell, the culture war has a second front. Things must be looking bad at CCHQ (notes 60,000 excess deaths, 20% drop in GDP and £300bn fiscal deficit. Ah...).
You were praising "What the Butler Saw" the other night -- & I agree it is a masterpiece.
But, Joe Orton's plaque on Noel Rd, Islington could also be considered rather contentious, no?
He was by his own admission, a sex tourist, who liked to go to Morocco and take advantage of the poverty of underage Arab boys to ...
A nasty case of racial and sexual exploitation. I think his diaries would be much more heavily criticised now than was the case at their publication in the 1980s.
FWIW, I think Joe was .... a complete shit ... who exploited many people (including Halliwell) -- but WtBS is brilliant.
Prick Up Your Ears - what a read that was.
"We talked of slavery and masturbation during tea"
No uptick in NYC, makes you wonder about this idea of when 20-25% of your city has had it, seems to drop right away.
Is that something you consider is feasible? Do you know who has suggested this? I can't get my head round what happened in London and wonder if the steep decline is explained away by this rather than the expert opinion I heard that Londoners abided by the lockdown so well which seems flawed to me given I saw it flouted often where I live!
Meanwhile, in ludicrous demo watch: petitions both for and against pulling down statues of Sir Robert Peel, 5,000 in favour of destroying a monument to Mahatma Gandhi in Leicester, and several rival demos planned to converge very close to one another in central London today. The likely efficacy of the Met police in keeping them, at a minimum, out of missile range of each other is questionable at best.
As politics becomes more tribal, and based upon values rather than class, I'm starting to think this debate about statues is more about poking the other tribe in the eye, rather than debating history.
Of course it is...see Owen Jones massive hypocrisy where vandalism of Marx is horrendous, we shouldn't be destroying monuments to important historical figures vs promoting his team pulling down ones he doesn't like.
Many of those involved in the culture war do seem absolutely astonished that not everyone agrees entirely with them, and that many people really disagree with them. Owen Jones is Exhibit #1.
I am thinking, can The Wire stay? Its sterotyping of ethnic minorities and immigrants as drug dealers and widespread use of racist language, surely means it has to be verboten these days.
Superb series. Seem to recall the N word used liberally by the African-American characters.
The racial epithets aren't limited to black on black. Also, widespread depiction of racial profiling and use of excessive force by the police.
"And if several people share a flat or house and all have partners who live alone, only one will be able to see their partner, which could lead to some interesting conversations. This will affect large numbers of young people living in towns and cities."
Bonkers. Will be observed more in the breach etc etc...
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
This is completely wrong.
There were two consultations with the public, both of which said the statue should remain and that further explanatory plaques should be added to explain the context. Of course the left wing council didn't like this result and so have done bugger all about this in the hope that exactly what has happened would happen. All the bad faith has been on the side of the council who have looked to the mob to achieve what democracy stopped them from doing.
Tory councillor objected to the wording in 2018 and suggested "if this partisan and nauseous plaque is approved, I can not find it in my heart to condemn anyone who damages or removes it,”
He may have objected but given Labour hold power and there is a Labour Mayor it is dishonest and disingenuous for them to claim they had no power to do anything about this. Councillors always complain about stuff they don't agree with and no one has said there should be 100% agreement. Khan in London has made use of his power and moved a statue. This seems to me to be perfectly reasonable and of course provides the opportunity for the decision to be reversed in future if anyone is silly enough to think it should be. Allowing a mob to do your dirty work for you is not reasonable.
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
Well, that's the difference between those who believe in illegal violence to solve their political problems and those who believe in peaceful, legal means.
I will always be on the latter, civilized side - and proud of it.
If you had an ounce of foresight, you might also wish to consider the terrible precedent it sets. What will you say if protesters from the other side of politics get violent, and start destroying monuments, buildings, texts, art etc etc that they dislike for ideological reasons? You won't have a leg to stand on.
It may have escaped your attention, but the other side got violent years ago. I am on the side of peaceful legal stuff about 99.9% of the time, but if you think direct action is never effective then you've not been paying attention to history. The more I read about the Colston statue, the more I am convinced that what the protesters did to it was entirely justified.
So your arguments are:
1. They started it! [The law of the playground] 2. It's OK to break the law sometimes if you obey it most of the time. [Good luck with that defence in a court of law] 3. Violence sometimes scares people into doing what you want so that's great. [Ditto - the judge will not be impressed!]
And this is meant to be justification for an all-out culture war of mutually-assured destruction? I think not.
The look on your face if your political opponents start following the ridiculous rules you've laid down will be both a darkly funny and a sad sight indeed.
I predict the phrase "Flexible Future Divergence" - or perhaps "Dynamic Democratic Alignment" - will be much heard. I know! But that's what we have come to with all this "leaving the EU" nonsense.
The adjective "Australian style" will be in there somewhere. That focus groups very well with the Stage 2 Hypertension crowd that constitutes leavers.
Yes, FM replaced with an "Australian style points system".
And on the trade deal, Canada + a fee + ECJ + LPF.
Which I make to be a Canada PLUS PLUS PLUS.
And people don't think "Muscles" can sell that? - C'mon. It sounds ruddy brilliant.
Rightly or wrongly if it has the ECJ involved he will not be able to sell it.
If this is the case some creativity will be needed. I'm sure they will come up with something that squares the circle. I will be utterly amazed if "WTO" happens. I wish there was a Betfair market on it. I'd lay at anything up to 5 and would need 10 to back.
I must admit I have absolutely no idea what the outcome will be so I am betting no money beyond the bet I have in place with Richard N.
What is that bet?
There were two between myself and Richard Navabi. The first was £100 that Leave would win the referendum. I backed Leave in the bet even though I really didn't think we would win. I just thought with this being a betting site I ought to have the courage of my convictions. Clearly I was delighted to be proved wrong. If I remember rightly the winnings went to PB.
The second and still open - although on its last legs - is that the end result of leaving would be the UK in EFTA. Again this is me betting on my desired outcome and fully expecting to lose. And again it is for £100.
A couple of months ago I posted that I felt it was only fair to offer to close the bet and pay Richard as it looks impossibly unlikely that we will end up in EFTA now. But when I posted at the time I didn't get a reply. The offer still stands.
I am thinking, can The Wire stay? It might be the best tv show of all time, but its sterotyping of ethnic minorities and immigrants as drug dealers and widespread use of racist language, surely means it has to be verboten these days.
I'm waiting on the mob going for Dave Chappelle. Even his latest stand-up video on current events is littered with n-words.
No uptick in NYC, makes you wonder about this idea of when 20-25% of your city has had it, seems to drop right away.
Is that something you consider is feasible? Do you know who has suggested this? I can't get my head round what happened in London and wonder if the steep decline is explained away by this rather than the expert opinion I heard that Londoners abided by the lockdown so well which seems flawed to me given I saw it flouted often where I live!
I have no expertise in this field, so I have no idea about feasibility of the idea floated by a few experts that there might be a proportion of the population who are naturally immune and thus you start to get a community immunity at much lower levels of infection.
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
This is completely wrong.
There were two consultations with the public, both of which said the statue should remain and that further explanatory plaques should be added to explain the context. Of course the left wing council didn't like this result and so have done bugger all about this in the hope that exactly what has happened would happen. All the bad faith has been on the side of the council who have looked to the mob to achieve what democracy stopped them from doing.
Tory councillor objected to the wording in 2018 and suggested "if this partisan and nauseous plaque is approved, I can not find it in my heart to condemn anyone who damages or removes it,”
He may have objected but given Labour hold power and there is a Labour Mayor it is dishonest and disingenuous for them to claim they had no power to do anything about this. Councillors always complain about stuff they don't agree with and no one has said there should be 100% agreement. Khan in London has made use of his power and moved a statue. This seems to me to be perfectly reasonable and of course provides the opportunity for the decision to be reversed in future if anyone is silly enough to think it should be. Allowing a mob to do your dirty work for you is not reasonable.
Just pointing out that as with most things, all the bad faith was not on one side or the other, but is and was from both sides.
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
You are frighteningly stupid, aren't you? The sort of person who makes 1984 a real possibility. You have the zeal of the convert because you learned of the fact of British involvement in the slave trade about last Thursday. Most of us have known about it a bit longer than that and don't need the arbitrary destruction of historic artefacts to remind us of the fact. And find that preserving and studying things is a better way of learning from them, than destroying them.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I am thinking, can The Wire stay? It might be the best tv show of all time, but its sterotyping of ethnic minorities and immigrants as drug dealers and widespread use of racist language, surely means it has to be verboten these days.
I'm waiting on the mob going for Dave Chappelle. Even his latest stand-up video on current events is littered with n-words.
Well they originally went for him & his special became one of the most watched shows on Netflix. The mob most recently went for Terry Crews a few days ago.
Bloody hell, the culture war has a second front. Things must be looking bad at CCHQ (notes 60,000 excess deaths, 20% drop in GDP and £300bn fiscal deficit. Ah...).
You were praising "What the Butler Saw" the other night -- & I agree it is a masterpiece.
But, Joe Orton's plaque on Noel Rd, Islington could also be considered rather contentious, no?
He was by his own admission, a sex tourist, who liked to go to Morocco and take advantage of the poverty of underage Arab boys to ...
A nasty case of racial and sexual exploitation. I think his diaries would be much more heavily criticised now than was the case at their publication in the 1980s.
FWIW, I think Joe was .... a complete shit ... who exploited many people (including Halliwell) -- but WtBS is brilliant.
Prick Up Your Ears - what a read that was.
"We talked of slavery and masturbation during tea"
I am thinking, can The Wire stay? Its sterotyping of ethnic minorities and immigrants as drug dealers and widespread use of racist language, surely means it has to be verboten these days.
Superb series. Seem to recall the N word used liberally by the African-American characters.
Much of black American culture - especially the music - is saturated with use of the N-word. Track forward a few decades and, if it's gone out of fashion again in the meantime, much of contemporary American popular entertainment will be suppressed into the dustbin by the late 21st Century heirs of the BLM protestors.
Actually, scrub "a few decades" - at the current pace of change things may have moved on significantly in only a few years' time. Look at all that screaming over Little Britain, which only finished in 2005.
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
This is completely wrong.
There were two consultations with the public, both of which said the statue should remain and that further explanatory plaques should be added to explain the context. Of course the left wing council didn't like this result and so have done bugger all about this in the hope that exactly what has happened would happen. All the bad faith has been on the side of the council who have looked to the mob to achieve what democracy stopped them from doing.
Tory councillor objected to the wording in 2018 and suggested "if this partisan and nauseous plaque is approved, I can not find it in my heart to condemn anyone who damages or removes it,”
He may have objected but given Labour hold power and there is a Labour Mayor it is dishonest and disingenuous for them to claim they had no power to do anything about this. Councillors always complain about stuff they don't agree with and no one has said there should be 100% agreement. Khan in London has made use of his power and moved a statue. This seems to me to be perfectly reasonable and of course provides the opportunity for the decision to be reversed in future if anyone is silly enough to think it should be. Allowing a mob to do your dirty work for you is not reasonable.
Just pointing out that as with most things, all the bad faith was not on one side or the other, but is and was from both sides.
The implication being that objecting to something and speaking out against it is wrong and should not be allowed?
The only people with the legal power to do anything about this statue were the city council and mayor (although I am not sure of where within that grouping the real power lies) . They have always had the power to resolve this issue reasonably but have chosen not to.
Edit: Whilst I don't like him, compare and contrast with the actions of Khan over the Milligan statue. Yes he got a bit of expected stick from the normal mouthpieces but he took action that was within his remit, there was no damage and no one is particularly moved by it a week later.
Bloody hell, the culture war has a second front. Things must be looking bad at CCHQ (notes 60,000 excess deaths, 20% drop in GDP and £300bn fiscal deficit. Ah...).
You were praising "What the Butler Saw" the other night -- & I agree it is a masterpiece.
But, Joe Orton's plaque on Noel Rd, Islington could also be considered rather contentious, no?
He was by his own admission, a sex tourist, who liked to go to Morocco and take advantage of the poverty of underage Arab boys to ...
A nasty case of racial and sexual exploitation. I think his diaries would be much more heavily criticised now than was the case at their publication in the 1980s.
FWIW, I think Joe was .... a complete shit ... who exploited many people (including Halliwell) -- but WtBS is brilliant.
Prick Up Your Ears - what a read that was.
"We talked of slavery and masturbation during tea"
(Orton Diaries, 28 February 1967).
As you do.
Do you put the tea in before the masturbation or after?
I am thinking, can The Wire stay? Its sterotyping of ethnic minorities and immigrants as drug dealers and widespread use of racist language, surely means it has to be verboten these days.
Superb series. Seem to recall the N word used liberally by the African-American characters.
Much of black American culture - especially the music - is saturated with use of the N-word. Track forward a few decades and, if it's gone out of fashion again in the meantime, much of contemporary American popular entertainment will be suppressed into the dustbin by the late 21st Century heirs of the BLM protestors.
Actually, scrub "a few decades" - at the current pace of change things may have moved on significantly in only a few years' time. Look at all that screaming over Little Britain, which only finished in 2005.
These days are we allowed to laugh at Chris Rock famous routine about the difference between black people and n####s ?
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
This is completely wrong.
There were two consultations with the public, both of which said the statue should remain and that further explanatory plaques should be added to explain the context. Of course the left wing council didn't like this result and so have done bugger all about this in the hope that exactly what has happened would happen. All the bad faith has been on the side of the council who have looked to the mob to achieve what democracy stopped them from doing.
Tory councillor objected to the wording in 2018 and suggested "if this partisan and nauseous plaque is approved, I can not find it in my heart to condemn anyone who damages or removes it,”
He may have objected but given Labour hold power and there is a Labour Mayor it is dishonest and disingenuous for them to claim they had no power to do anything about this. Councillors always complain about stuff they don't agree with and no one has said there should be 100% agreement. Khan in London has made use of his power and moved a statue. This seems to me to be perfectly reasonable and of course provides the opportunity for the decision to be reversed in future if anyone is silly enough to think it should be. Allowing a mob to do your dirty work for you is not reasonable.
Just pointing out that as with most things, all the bad faith was not on one side or the other, but is and was from both sides.
The implication being that objecting to something and speaking out against it is wrong and should not be allowed?
The only people with the legal power to do anything about this statue were the city council and mayor (although I am not sure of where within that grouping the real power lies) . They have always had the power to resolve this issue reasonably but have chosen not to.
The Tory councillor says if he didnt get his way vandalising and removing it was fine. Why is it fine for him but not those of a different view?
I predict the phrase "Flexible Future Divergence" - or perhaps "Dynamic Democratic Alignment" - will be much heard. I know! But that's what we have come to with all this "leaving the EU" nonsense.
The adjective "Australian style" will be in there somewhere. That focus groups very well with the Stage 2 Hypertension crowd that constitutes leavers.
Yes, FM replaced with an "Australian style points system".
And on the trade deal, Canada + a fee + ECJ + LPF.
Which I make to be a Canada PLUS PLUS PLUS.
And people don't think "Muscles" can sell that? - C'mon. It sounds ruddy brilliant.
Rightly or wrongly if it has the ECJ involved he will not be able to sell it.
If this is the case some creativity will be needed. I'm sure they will come up with something that squares the circle. I will be utterly amazed if "WTO" happens. I wish there was a Betfair market on it. I'd lay at anything up to 5 and would need 10 to back.
I must admit I have absolutely no idea what the outcome will be so I am betting no money beyond the bet I have in place with Richard N.
What is that bet?
There were two between myself and Richard Navabi. The first was £100 that Leave would win the referendum. I backed Leave in the bet even though I really didn't think we would win. I just thought with this being a betting site I ought to have the courage of my convictions. Clearly I was delighted to be proved wrong. If I remember rightly the winnings went to PB.
The second and still open - although on its last legs - is that the end result of leaving would be the UK in EFTA. Again this is me betting on my desired outcome and fully expecting to lose. And again it is for £100.
A couple of months ago I posted that I felt it was only fair to offer to close the bet and pay Richard as it looks impossibly unlikely that we will end up in EFTA now. But when I posted at the time I didn't get a reply. The offer still stands.
That would be a rare and welcome outcome of Brexit, with honour even, and no one the worse off.
Bloody hell, the culture war has a second front. Things must be looking bad at CCHQ (notes 60,000 excess deaths, 20% drop in GDP and £300bn fiscal deficit. Ah...).
You were praising "What the Butler Saw" the other night -- & I agree it is a masterpiece.
But, Joe Orton's plaque on Noel Rd, Islington could also be considered rather contentious, no?
He was by his own admission, a sex tourist, who liked to go to Morocco and take advantage of the poverty of underage Arab boys to ...
A nasty case of racial and sexual exploitation. I think his diaries would be much more heavily criticised now than was the case at their publication in the 1980s.
FWIW, I think Joe was .... a complete shit ... who exploited many people (including Halliwell) -- but WtBS is brilliant.
Prick Up Your Ears - what a read that was.
"We talked of slavery and masturbation during tea"
(Orton Diaries, 28 February 1967).
As you do.
Do you put the tea in before the masturbation or after?
No uptick in NYC, makes you wonder about this idea of when 20-25% of your city has had it, seems to drop right away.
Is that something you consider is feasible? Do you know who has suggested this? I can't get my head round what happened in London and wonder if the steep decline is explained away by this rather than the expert opinion I heard that Londoners abided by the lockdown so well which seems flawed to me given I saw it flouted often where I live!
I have thought for some time that the pattern of data is best explained by more people having been infected, and\or starting with some immunity or resistance, than has so far been confirmed. Like you everything I hear about London is that lockdown has been more problematic, yet infections fell away the fastest.
Such a possibility doesn't exclude upticks if people start mingling in large crowds
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have done to them otherwise.
The spray painting, flag burning mob gave them the excuse to turn up in the first place. If we're going to give free rein to one lot then we should not be at all surprised if their mirror images take their turn to crawl out of the woodwork.
It may have escaped your attention, but the other side got violent years ago. I am on the side of peaceful legal stuff about 99.9% of the time, but if you think direct action is never effective then you've not been paying attention to history. The more I read about the Colston statue, the more I am convinced that what the protesters did to it was entirely justified.
Enrico Malatesta in Violence & Anarchism: It is our aspiration and our aim that everyone should become socially conscious and effective; but to achieve this end, it is necessary to provide all with the means of life and for development, and it is therefore necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies these means to the workers.
I see the police woman is still in hospital a week later....for somebody according to the Guardian journo was only lightly hurt so it was ok to laugh at her, the officer clearly is dragging out her stay for the sympathy vote.
Tories have fucked up a sensible Brexit Tories have fucked up the economy Tories have fucked up Covid 19 and left us with the most per capita pandemic deaths of any major Nation
Still lead 43% to 38% though.
Labour members have a lot to answer for.
Not as much as the LibDems and ChangeUK MPs who failed to support Ken Clarke's Customs Union option when presented at the time of the Indicative Votes a year ago.Beyond that, it remains puzzling to many people that such ardent pro-Europeans were prepared to prioritise Stopping Corbyn over Stopping No Deal Brexit.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
This is completely wrong.
There were two consultations with the public, both of which said the statue should remain and that further explanatory plaques should be added to explain the context. Of course the left wing council didn't like this result and so have done bugger all about this in the hope that exactly what has happened would happen. All the bad faith has been on the side of the council who have looked to the mob to achieve what democracy stopped them from doing.
Tory councillor objected to the wording in 2018 and suggested "if this partisan and nauseous plaque is approved, I can not find it in my heart to condemn anyone who damages or removes it,”
He may have objected but given Labour hold power and there is a Labour Mayor it is dishonest and disingenuous for them to claim they had no power to do anything about this. Councillors always complain about stuff they don't agree with and no one has said there should be 100% agreement. Khan in London has made use of his power and moved a statue. This seems to me to be perfectly reasonable and of course provides the opportunity for the decision to be reversed in future if anyone is silly enough to think it should be. Allowing a mob to do your dirty work for you is not reasonable.
Just pointing out that as with most things, all the bad faith was not on one side or the other, but is and was from both sides.
The implication being that objecting to something and speaking out against it is wrong and should not be allowed?
The only people with the legal power to do anything about this statue were the city council and mayor (although I am not sure of where within that grouping the real power lies) . They have always had the power to resolve this issue reasonably but have chosen not to.
Edit: Whilst I don't like him, compare and contrast with the actions of Khan over the Milligan statue. Yes he got a bit of expected stick from the normal mouthpieces but he took action that was within his remit, there was no damage and no one is particularly moved by it a week later.
I’d agree with that.
His decision to replace the Churchill statue with one of Johnson hiding in a fridge is perhaps more contentious.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have seen the future and it is the Democratic Football Lads Alliance.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
Got rid of them? How does that work then?
The visual evidence today suggests that they are, were and will always be with us.
"That almost certainly means there won’t be a deal."
I hold the opposite view.
Two things can be ruled out. (i) An extension. (ii) An overnight move from frictionless trade to WTO. The first being politically impossible (for Johnson) and the second being utter lunacy on every level and from every perspective.
Therefore there almost certainly WILL be a deal. And given the negotiating realities it will be largely on the EU's terms. So in the parlance of the Header, "Submission or No Deal" - the answer is Submission.
But Johnson (as he did with the Withdrawal Agreement) will brand it otherwise. Submission will once again become triumph. I predict the phrase "Flexible Future Divergence" - or perhaps "Dynamic Democratic Alignment" - will be much heard. I know! But that's what we have come to with all this "leaving the EU" nonsense.
Brexit. A great big sack of stupid, quite frankly. Total waste of time. Always was.
I think you're underestimating the will to avoid any form of rule-taking from the EU on pretty much anything except exports into the EU. Not only in No 10, but in the Tory party and country at large.
I think the need to avoid WTO trumps that. Ending FM is imo the one thing that Johnson must demonstrate occurs on 1st Jan 2021. The rest he can get away with fudging for now. And indeed forever, in my view, but certainly for now.
I think he probabaly knows that even with a majority of 80, there are insufficient votes on the back benches for a treaty that ties us to taking EU rules forever.
It’s now about the only possible piece of legislation guaranteed to wipe out the government’s majority overnight, and the government are well aware of that.
The other would have been a deadline extension, but thankfully that has now passed.
I still find the golden rule of Brexit holds true.
Whatever reassures the Remain side (Gina Miller case, clever motions in the HoC, supreme court decision, there is bound to be an extension because Covid) always ends up hurting their cause.
Several people have laughed at it over the years, but it holds pretty true....
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
Got rid of them? How does that work then?
The visual evidence today suggests that they are, were and will always be with us.
I didn't say they have gone away entirely, I said turning up every weekend for a punch up.
Nobody thinks there aren't a small hardcore of far right racists in this country, but in recent years they had dwindling support. Same as nobody thinks the far left are going to disappear entirely, now that Jezza isn't Labour leader.
Tories have fucked up a sensible Brexit Tories have fucked up the economy Tories have fucked up Covid 19 and left us with the most per capita pandemic deaths of any major Nation
Still lead 43% to 38% though.
Labour members have a lot to answer for.
Especially those that sabotaged 2017
Indeed. That would still be Corbyn, Formby, Abbott, Macdonnell, Murphy and Milne. They’re the incompetent clowns who ran on an uncosted manifesto that nobody took seriously while pretending they weren’t racist. So I’m 100% with you there.
Formby wasnt in place in 2017 if she had been Labour HQ would not have sabotaged their own party and the aforesaid Corbyn would have been PM and we would have had A sensible BREXIT A thriving Economy and German rates of Covid deaths
The bed sheets are all wet.
Bridges for sale...
Look, a competent Labour leader could have beaten Theresa May in 2017. (As it happens, that’s not a helpful counterfactual as had a competent Labour leader been in place the election would never have been called, nor would the Tories have run on a hard-right manifesto. But that’s not the point.) Corbyn couldn’t. He was a transparent liar standing on a manifesto that was patently uncosted backed by a shadow cabinet whose members made Gavin Williamson look a model of talent and probity. That he ran May close says a lot about her that she doubtless found unflattering.
And if he were in charge now, things would be worse, not better. Johnson is lazy, but he’s not totally stupid. Corbyn is both. True, the current cabinet is very weak. But does anyone seriously think it’s weaker than a cabinet which would have included Burgon? As for the economy, it would have collapsed by now due to the strains imposed on it by Corbyn’s ideas. Heck, we’re seeing some of them play out with this pandemic, and it isn’t pretty to watch.
The real story of 2019 probably wasn’t the bizarre landslide for a paralysed government of clowns. It was reflecting that with a slightly different approach in 2017 May could have hit 400 seats.
PS - incidentally, Formby was political director of Unite and a member of Labour’s NEC in 2017. She did play a big role in Corbynite politics that was little more than formalised by being general secretary.
I was never a Corbynite , but Johnson is by far the more malign and disreputable human being.
I am thinking, can The Wire stay? Its sterotyping of ethnic minorities and immigrants as drug dealers and widespread use of racist language, surely means it has to be verboten these days.
Superb series. Seem to recall the N word used liberally by the African-American characters.
Much of black American culture - especially the music - is saturated with use of the N-word. Track forward a few decades and, if it's gone out of fashion again in the meantime, much of contemporary American popular entertainment will be suppressed into the dustbin by the late 21st Century heirs of the BLM protestors.
Actually, scrub "a few decades" - at the current pace of change things may have moved on significantly in only a few years' time. Look at all that screaming over Little Britain, which only finished in 2005.
Black culture in America to flourish for a while before it gets suppressed?
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
Espanyol vs Alaves at 1pm, there's a bloke called Oliver Burke playing for the away team. It says he is Scottish but I am not 100% sure, what do you reckon?
It may have escaped your attention, but the other side got violent years ago. I am on the side of peaceful legal stuff about 99.9% of the time, but if you think direct action is never effective then you've not been paying attention to history. The more I read about the Colston statue, the more I am convinced that what the protesters did to it was entirely justified.
Enrico Malatesta in Violence & Anarchism: It is our aspiration and our aim that everyone should become socially conscious and effective; but to achieve this end, it is necessary to provide all with the means of life and for development, and it is therefore necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies these means to the workers.
“...one cannot do otherwise...” is a perfect illustration of the correct use of begging the question.
Meanwhile, in ludicrous demo watch: petitions both for and against pulling down statues of Sir Robert Peel, 5,000 in favour of destroying a monument to Mahatma Gandhi in Leicester, and several rival demos planned to converge very close to one another in central London today. The likely efficacy of the Met police in keeping them, at a minimum, out of missile range of each other is questionable at best.
As politics becomes more tribal, and based upon values rather than class, I'm starting to think this debate about statues is more about poking the other tribe in the eye, rather than debating history.
Tories have fucked up a sensible Brexit Tories have fucked up the economy Tories have fucked up Covid 19 and left us with the most per capita pandemic deaths of any major Nation
Still lead 43% to 38% though.
Labour members have a lot to answer for.
Especially those that sabotaged 2017
Yes - their efforts could well have cost Labour 10 or 12 seats in 2017. If Labour had emerged with circa 275 seats with the Tories on circa 305, it is unlikely that Theresa May could have carried on at all.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.
I hope so too. All the lockdown rule breaking going on over the past few weeks is not on, especially after my folks have been locked away for 3 months. But the media has given it is a free pass, even Piers Moron, the ultimate lockdown hardliner.
IMO, they are far greater public health risk than whatever Big Dom did in Durham.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
People are taking sides, it is all very predictable, and indeed was predicted.
"The experience of the last decade and more, all round the world, shows that acts of violence, however apparently irrational or inappropriate their targets, precipitate a frenzied search on the part of the society attacked to discover and remedy more and more grievances, real or imaginary, among those from the violence is supposed to emanate or on whose behalf it is supposed to be exercised. Those commanding a position of political leverage would then be superhuman if they could refrain from pointing to the acts of terrorism and, while condemning them, declaring that further and faster concessions and grants of privilege are the only means to avoid such acts being repeated on a rising scale. We know that those who thus argue will always find a ready hearing. This is what produces the gearing effect of terrorism in the contemporary world, yielding huge results from acts of violence perpetrated by minimal numbers. It is not, I repeat again and again, that the mass of a particular population are violently or criminally disposed. Far from it; that population soon becomes itself the prisoner of the violence and machinations of an infinitely small minority among it. Just a few thugs, a few shots, a few bombs at the right place and time—and that is enough for disproportionate consequences to follow."
I see the right's way of dealing with the more unsavoury elements of their end of the political spectrum is blaming it on the more unsavoury elements of the lefty end of the political spectrum.
These poor, borderline racists being forced to dig their heels in (possibly to someone's face) by wokeness.
"Among that group are two contenders who have recently grown in prominence, Representative Val Demings of Florida and Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms of Atlanta. One well-known candidate, Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, has lost her perch as a front-runner. And some lower-profile candidates, like Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin, are advancing steadily in the search process."
"That almost certainly means there won’t be a deal."
I hold the opposite view.
Two things can be ruled out. (i) An extension. (ii) An overnight move from frictionless trade to WTO. The first being politically impossible (for Johnson) and the second being utter lunacy on every level and from every perspective.
Therefore there almost certainly WILL be a deal. And given the negotiating realities it will be largely on the EU's terms. So in the parlance of the Header, "Submission or No Deal" - the answer is Submission.
But Johnson (as he did with the Withdrawal Agreement) will brand it otherwise. Submission will once again become triumph. I predict the phrase "Flexible Future Divergence" - or perhaps "Dynamic Democratic Alignment" - will be much heard. I know! But that's what we have come to with all this "leaving the EU" nonsense.
Brexit. A great big sack of stupid, quite frankly. Total waste of time. Always was.
I think you're underestimating the will to avoid any form of rule-taking from the EU on pretty much anything except exports into the EU. Not only in No 10, but in the Tory party and country at large.
I think the need to avoid WTO trumps that. Ending FM is imo the one thing that Johnson must demonstrate occurs on 1st Jan 2021. The rest he can get away with fudging for now. And indeed forever, in my view, but certainly for now.
I think he probabaly knows that even with a majority of 80, there are insufficient votes on the back benches for a treaty that ties us to taking EU rules forever.
It’s now about the only possible piece of legislation guaranteed to wipe out the government’s majority overnight, and the government are well aware of that.
The other would have been a deadline extension, but thankfully that has now passed.
I still find the golden rule of Brexit holds true.
Whatever reassures the Remain side (Gina Miller case, clever motions in the HoC, supreme court decision, there is bound to be an extension because Covid) always ends up hurting their cause.
Several people have laughed at it over the years, but it holds pretty true....
There will as I have explained be an extension dressed up as a deal.
And I like your golden rule. There's much in it.
Certainly that Benn Act was a gift to Johnson and Cummings. It was such dumb politics.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.
I hope so too. All the lockdown rule breaking going on over the past few weeks is not on, especially after my folks have been locked away for 3 months. But the media has given it is a free pass, even Piers Moron, the ultimate lockdown hardliner.
Speaking of the devil, Guido has a very interesting picture of him that I assume is being shopped around the SSundays.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.
I hope so too. All the lockdown rule breaking going on over the past few weeks is not on, especially after my folks have been locked away for 3 months. But the media has given it is a free pass, even Piers Moron, the ultimate lockdown hardliner.
Speaking of the devil, Guido has a very interesting picture of him that I assume is being shopped around the SSundays.
Well given the man was responsible for a fake story about army torture and somehow managed to not notice a paper under his management was the European champions at phone hacking somehow still has a career in media, I sure he will have a good excuse and get another pass.
I see the right's way of dealing with the more unsavoury elements of their end of the political spectrum is blaming it on the more unsavoury elements of the lefty end of the political spectrum.
These poor, borderline racists being forced to dig their heels in (possibly to someone's face) by wokeness.
I see the right's way of dealing with the more unsavoury elements of their end of the political spectrum is blaming it on the more unsavoury elements of the lefty end of the political spectrum.
These poor, borderline racists being forced to dig their heels in (possibly to someone's face) by wokeness.
I must have missed the part where the right kicked all this off by rioting, injuring police, and destroying monuments.
I'm sure you must have evidence proving that they did though, right? Please don't keep it to yourself.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
It may have escaped your attention, but the other side got violent years ago. I am on the side of peaceful legal stuff about 99.9% of the time, but if you think direct action is never effective then you've not been paying attention to history. The more I read about the Colston statue, the more I am convinced that what the protesters did to it was entirely justified.
Enrico Malatesta in Violence & Anarchism: It is our aspiration and our aim that everyone should become socially conscious and effective; but to achieve this end, it is necessary to provide all with the means of life and for development, and it is therefore necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies these means to the workers.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
It was rather revealing that the BBC actually ran these two differing pieces on their front page last Saturday...except the far right being violent and breaking lockdown were in Italy.
Who is Andy Bennett? Hopefully not the next Jo Cox.
Looking on Google I think that they're referring to the Bristol police superintendent who wasn't staunch enough in resisting Colston getting ducked. Looks like he can take care of himself though let's hope that's never tested.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.
I hope so too. All the lockdown rule breaking going on over the past few weeks is not on, especially after my folks have been locked away for 3 months. But the media has given it is a free pass, even Piers Moron, the ultimate lockdown hardliner.
Speaking of the devil, Guido has a very interesting picture of him that I assume is being shopped around the SSundays.
Well given the man was responsible for a fake story about army torture and somehow managed to not notice a paper under his management was the European champions at phone hacking somehow still has a career in media, I sure he will have a good excuse and get another pass.
SSadly, you may well be right - although it’s the sort of thing that in the current climate easily leads to advertisers boycotting his show and his bosses being harassed by the rest of the media. There’s an awful lot of people who really hate his guts, and want to him take a fall.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
"One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist" - said a bitter, miserable junkie with the usual extreme left views on what's Kosher
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
Speaking as someone you'd probably consider to be on the right, I'd say say that 100% of the far right were complete cnts and probably about 40-50% of antifa (leaving aside, for these purposes, the question whether the non-cnt balance of antifa are complete wankers).
No uptick in NYC, makes you wonder about this idea of when 20-25% of your city has had it, seems to drop right away.
Is that something you consider is feasible? Do you know who has suggested this? I can't get my head round what happened in London and wonder if the steep decline is explained away by this rather than the expert opinion I heard that Londoners abided by the lockdown so well which seems flawed to me given I saw it flouted often where I live!
I have thought for some time that the pattern of data is best explained by more people having been infected, and\or starting with some immunity or resistance, than has so far been confirmed. Like you everything I hear about London is that lockdown has been more problematic, yet infections fell away the fastest.
Such a possibility doesn't exclude upticks if people start mingling in large crowds
I wonder if this mean the reliable IgM/IgG antibody testing will help answer this idea floated by some experts about community immunity or will this not pick up if a proportion of the population have naturally immunity rather than having had Covid-19 but showing no symptoms?
It also seems inevitable that there will be an uptick in cases as Beijing is now seeing despite going for more than 50 days without a new case and how stringent China has been. It seems extraordinary that none of the 45 new positive cases were showing symptoms of Covid-19. Hasn't some expertss also suggested Covid-19 could be losing its potency?
"That almost certainly means there won’t be a deal."
I hold the opposite view.
Two things can be ruled out. (i) An extension. (ii) An overnight move from frictionless trade to WTO. The first being politically impossible (for Johnson) and the second being utter lunacy on every level and from every perspective.
Therefore there almost certainly WILL be a deal. And given the negotiating realities it will be largely on the EU's terms. So in the parlance of the Header, "Submission or No Deal" - the answer is Submission.
But Johnson (as he did with the Withdrawal Agreement) will brand it otherwise. Submission will once again become triumph. I predict the phrase "Flexible Future Divergence" - or perhaps "Dynamic Democratic Alignment" - will be much heard. I know! But that's what we have come to with all this "leaving the EU" nonsense.
Brexit. A great big sack of stupid, quite frankly. Total waste of time. Always was.
I think you're underestimating the will to avoid any form of rule-taking from the EU on pretty much anything except exports into the EU. Not only in No 10, but in the Tory party and country at large.
I think the need to avoid WTO trumps that. Ending FM is imo the one thing that Johnson must demonstrate occurs on 1st Jan 2021. The rest he can get away with fudging for now. And indeed forever, in my view, but certainly for now.
I think he probabaly knows that even with a majority of 80, there are insufficient votes on the back benches for a treaty that ties us to taking EU rules forever.
It’s now about the only possible piece of legislation guaranteed to wipe out the government’s majority overnight, and the government are well aware of that.
The other would have been a deadline extension, but thankfully that has now passed.
I still find the golden rule of Brexit holds true.
Whatever reassures the Remain side (Gina Miller case, clever motions in the HoC, supreme court decision, there is bound to be an extension because Covid) always ends up hurting their cause.
Several people have laughed at it over the years, but it holds pretty true....
It's not that. It's because Remainers (and I have been guilty of that too) don't realise Brexiteers are totally uninterested in limiting the damage. Because Brexiteers don't think there is any damage to limit. Leavers have never had a plan for Brexit, not in 2016, not now, when they are supposedly implementing the wretched thing. But Leavers do hold beliefs, the key one being that Brexit is a Good Thing. If it's a Good Thing obviously you want it to be the quickest, hardest break possible.
Remainers who know Brexit is a damaging thing for a host of specific and empirical reasons, even if we have to go through with it, look to limit that damage, unaware that Leavers have no interest in doing the same.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.
I hope so too. All the lockdown rule breaking going on over the past few weeks is not on, especially after my folks have been locked away for 3 months. But the media has given it is a free pass, even Piers Moron, the ultimate lockdown hardliner.
Speaking of the devil, Guido has a very interesting picture of him that I assume is being shopped around the SSundays.
Why does he need to advertise on his blog that he has pictures for sale? Surely he can pick up the phone to Fleet Street's finest?
Espanyol vs Alaves at 1pm, there's a bloke called Oliver Burke playing for the away team. It says he is Scottish but I am not 100% sure, what do you reckon?
He was once very highly rated, I think the most expensive Scottish player ever when he moved to RB Leipzig.
Disturbing pictures from the centre of London today. Thankfully, the Churchill statue and the Cenotaph have been protected. God knows what these nazi-saluting drunks would have dione to them otherwise.
I have a feeling the BBC won't be ignoring any violence and describing them as peaceful if a load of police officers get hurt.
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
The Cenotaph and the Churchill statue represent everything these pissed-up fascists hate. I am pleased both have been protected. I very much hope we get statements from the PM and the Home Secretary condemning the violence and the flagrant violation of the lockdown rules.
I hope so too. All the lockdown rule breaking going on over the past few weeks is not on, especially after my folks have been locked away for 3 months. But the media has given it is a free pass, even Piers Moron, the ultimate lockdown hardliner.
Speaking of the devil, Guido has a very interesting picture of him that I assume is being shopped around the SSundays.
Why does he need to advertise on his blog that he has pictures for sale? Surely he can pick up the phone to Fleet Street's finest?
I’ll take a guess that he’s been on the phone already and not had a buyer, so he’s put a teaser on his website to see the reaction and if someone will bite. Over a thousand retweets in less than an hour.
As we saw with the story of Rachel Johnson’s tennis partner the other week, many in the traditional media do appear to have an unwritten code not to go for each other.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
"That almost certainly means there won’t be a deal."
I hold the opposite view.
Two things can be ruled out. (i) An extension. (ii) An overnight move from frictionless trade to WTO. The first being politically impossible (for Johnson) and the second being utter lunacy on every level and from every perspective.
Therefore there almost certainly WILL be a deal. And given the negotiating realities it will be largely on the EU's terms. So in the parlance of the Header, "Submission or No Deal" - the answer is Submission.
But Johnson (as he did with the Withdrawal Agreement) will brand it otherwise. Submission will once again become triumph. I predict the phrase "Flexible Future Divergence" - or perhaps "Dynamic Democratic Alignment" - will be much heard. I know! But that's what we have come to with all this "leaving the EU" nonsense.
Brexit. A great big sack of stupid, quite frankly. Total waste of time. Always was.
I think you're underestimating the will to avoid any form of rule-taking from the EU on pretty much anything except exports into the EU. Not only in No 10, but in the Tory party and country at large.
I think the need to avoid WTO trumps that. Ending FM is imo the one thing that Johnson must demonstrate occurs on 1st Jan 2021. The rest he can get away with fudging for now. And indeed forever, in my view, but certainly for now.
I think he probabaly knows that even with a majority of 80, there are insufficient votes on the back benches for a treaty that ties us to taking EU rules forever.
It’s now about the only possible piece of legislation guaranteed to wipe out the government’s majority overnight, and the government are well aware of that.
The other would have been a deadline extension, but thankfully that has now passed.
I still find the golden rule of Brexit holds true.
Whatever reassures the Remain side (Gina Miller case, clever motions in the HoC, supreme court decision, there is bound to be an extension because Covid) always ends up hurting their cause.
Several people have laughed at it over the years, but it holds pretty true....
I think its more than the small scale localised 'wins' exist in a bubble and the effects in the country at large are, broadly, ignored.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
When I was at university, I used to help out with organising demos.
If you hold a demo, you attract nutters. Bit like bins and foxes. Nothing to do with the cause itself - the nazis and the anarchists will attempt to ruin everyones day.
The far right version had died dow a lot, until https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/dec/20/arts.religion1 gave the fascists the idea that a bit of street violence could get something other than a face full of baton from the TSG...
For a load of anti-fascists, the American ANTIFA are a funny lot. They seize somebodies else land, erect border fences with armed guards, and have a strict policy on who is allowed in. Welcome to the Republic of CHAZ.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
"One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist" - said a bitter, miserable junkie with the usual extreme left views on what's Kosher
The actions of the hard-left anarchist types leave one with the following options -
1) They are all really nazis doing false flag 2) They are paid by the police to make protests look bad 3) They really are that stupid.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
I think thats fair comment
Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
I think thats fair comment
Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
fire up the well quite klaxon.
that is, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings
Why don't the police just get out of the way and let the football hooligans and the Britain-haters have a proper ding-dong, to entertain the nation?
Perhaps kettle both in around the Cenotaph. And let them play capture the flag. And the vast majority of normal folk will look in and be disgusted by both.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
I think thats fair comment
Lock up a load of the far right for three months, then let them loose in London on the piss and the gear on a hot Summer Saturday after spending the last week watch militant lefties smash up olde English statues on tv... what could go wrong?
'Statues'? Has there been more than one (though that one looks in decent nick for being smashed up)?
Why don't the police just get out of the way and let the football hooligans and the Britain-haters have a proper ding-dong, to entertain the nation?
Perhaps kettle both in around the Cenotaph. And let them play capture the flag. And the vast majority of normal folk will look in and be disgusted by both.
Thankfully the far right in the UK is mostly mouth breathing idiots who practise drinking beer, rather than having any skill at actual violence.
In the US, the confrontations you talk about have happened. Nasty results, mostly.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
“Protecting statutes” is the new euphemism for “looking for a ruck” I see
twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1271781928572772355
Is there still a global pandemic going on? Hard to tell these days.
I always thought lockdown would collapse eventually as we moved into the hot days of Summer. I just didn’t anticipate that it would do so quite like this.
Must go. I believe my current pet project, photographing surviving church pre-Reformation art in Kent, (the typical hobby of a “cultural vandal” like me I know) can restart next week so I have some country vicars to email. May throw in some random threats of “leftist” revolutionary violence too, but maybe not. Then again, with a name like that, the Rev Ravi Holy of Wye and Brook might appreciate it.
I'm sensing a "far right and antifa - bad people on both sides" vibe taking hold on my favourite internet chat forum. Ah well. Free speech trumps my feelings, I suppose.
The extreme right and the extreme left are clearly two sides of the same rotten coin, but what's going on with the demos is a little more complicated. The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-
capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
Pretty much agree. But for me the brutish, overtly racist nastiness of the far right means they clinch the biscuit.
I’m shocked that you reach this conclusion. No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
“Protecting statutes” is the new euphemism for “looking for a ruck” I see
twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1271781928572772355
Is there still a global pandemic going on? Hard to tell these days.
I always thought lockdown would collapse eventually as we moved into the hot days of Summer. I just didn’t anticipate that it would do so quite like this.
Must go. I believe my current pet project, photographing surviving church pre-Reformation art in Kent, (the typical hobby of a “cultural vandal” like me I know) can restart next week so I have some country vicars to email. May throw in some random threats of “leftist” revolutionary violence too, but maybe not. Then again, with a name like that, the Rev Ravi Holy of Wye and Brook might appreciate it.
In The Ten Commandments (No 4) we are told to avoid "graven images". If you visit a synagogue or travel to Israel you will notice that there are no statues, and this is why. I believe the same applies to the Islamic world, although I am not an expert. In present circumstances it would have saved an enormous amount of bad-temper if we had all followed this injunction.
Islam is the same, I believe. It's down to Allah to create man, not man. Or something like that!
If you think that the current events are an “orgy of cultural destruction” the Byzantines say hello -
And? I condemn it as a stupid and destructive act that robs future generations of valuable historical material.
Why do you have so much difficulty condemning other stupid and destructive acts that do the same?
I don't think you can have had much training as a historian if you think the Colston statue had any significant historical value. Let's put it this way: if you had to write a history of the slave trade, or a history of Bristol, can you explain how the removal of the statue to a different venue would make your job any harder? Whereas, if you were writing a history of the British empire, the destruction of documents detailing the administration of that empire would, presumably, be pretty useful (which is why, of course, they were destroyed). The Colston statue was put up 170 years after he died by a business elite who were concerned about workers striking for better pay and wanted to create a patriotic myth for them to rally around. He wasn't the most generous philanthropist in Bristol's history, his statue wasn't put up by popular subscription, it was a deliberate act of myth making by the elite who know, as now, that a bit of flag waving is a great distraction when you want to shaft the working class. It's not even a good statue.
Thank goodness you are not the arbiter of either historical or cultural or aesthetic value and what is and is not allowed to exist and remain in the public sphere. I have little interest in this specific statue, although I do think it possesses more merit than you grant - indeed, the myth-making aspect of its creation is arguably its most interesting quality.
The most important point is that the principle that cultural artifacts may be destroyed by a mob for ideological reasons must never, ever be conceded - because that is one of the most slippery of slopes, and its end the most ugly.
Efforts had been made to have the statue moved for years, met with total bad faith on the other side. I don't blame people for getting frustrated and taking the law into their own hands. The poetry of having a slaver thrown into the harbour just like his slaves were thrown from his ships was great. The violence meted out to his statue was nothing as to the violence done to innocent children in his name and for his profit. He has been fished from his watery grave intact and can now be placed in a museum with a plaque detailing his crimes. It should be a wake up call to the authorities everywhere, a welcome kick up the backside to recognise the reality of our history and remove these scoundrels from their ill-deserved pedestals.
You are frighteningly stupid, aren't you? The sort of person who makes 1984 a real possibility. You have the zeal of the convert because you learned of the fact of British involvement in the slave trade about last Thursday. Most of us have known about it a bit longer than that and don't need the arbitrary destruction of historic artefacts to remind us of the fact. And find that preserving and studying things is a better way of learning from them, than destroying them.
Not really, I know quite a lot about slavery after studying the American Civil War for SYS history and from living in the Caribbean for several years. Apart from the fact that the statue is not a historic artefact and wasn't destroyed you are 100% correct. I also think you might need to reread 1984, and you should avoid as hominem attacks if you can, it lowers the tone.
Comments
(Orton Diaries, 28 February 1967).
"And if several people share a flat or house and all have partners who live alone, only one will be able to see their partner, which could lead to some interesting conversations. This will affect large numbers of young people living in towns and cities."
Bonkers. Will be observed more in the breach etc etc...
1. They started it! [The law of the playground]
2. It's OK to break the law sometimes if you obey it most of the time. [Good luck with that defence in a court of law]
3. Violence sometimes scares people into doing what you want so that's great. [Ditto - the judge will not be impressed!]
And this is meant to be justification for an all-out culture war of mutually-assured destruction? I think not.
The look on your face if your political opponents start following the ridiculous rules you've laid down will be both a darkly funny and a sad sight indeed.
But we're talking years so I do see the problem.
Actually, scrub "a few decades" - at the current pace of change things may have moved on significantly in only a few years' time. Look at all that screaming over Little Britain, which only finished in 2005.
The only people with the legal power to do anything about this statue were the city council and mayor (although I am not sure of where within that grouping the real power lies) . They have always had the power to resolve this issue reasonably but have chosen not to.
Edit: Whilst I don't like him, compare and contrast with the actions of Khan over the Milligan statue. Yes he got a bit of expected stick from the normal mouthpieces but he took action that was within his remit, there was no damage and no one is particularly moved by it a week later.
Such a possibility doesn't exclude upticks if people start mingling in large crowds
We just about got rid of these dickheads turning up in high streets and now equal dickheads vandalising war memorials will lead to weeks of this crap.
His decision to replace the Churchill statue with one of Johnson hiding in a fridge is perhaps more contentious.
They will take us "beyond race" if anyone can.
The visual evidence today suggests that they are, were and will always be with us.
Whatever reassures the Remain side (Gina Miller case, clever motions in the HoC, supreme court decision, there is bound to be an extension because Covid) always ends up hurting their cause.
Several people have laughed at it over the years, but it holds pretty true....
Nobody thinks there aren't a small hardcore of far right racists in this country, but in recent years they had dwindling support. Same as nobody thinks the far left are going to disappear entirely, now that Jezza isn't Labour leader.
Progress!
IMO, they are far greater public health risk than whatever Big Dom did in Durham.
"The experience of the last decade and more, all round the world, shows that acts of violence, however apparently irrational or inappropriate their targets, precipitate a frenzied search on the part of the society attacked to discover and remedy more and more grievances, real or imaginary, among those from the violence is supposed to emanate or on whose behalf it is supposed to be exercised. Those commanding a position of political leverage would then be superhuman if they could refrain from pointing to the acts of terrorism and, while condemning them, declaring that further and faster concessions and grants of privilege are the only means to avoid such acts being repeated on a rising scale. We know that those who thus argue will always find a ready hearing. This is what produces the gearing effect of terrorism in the contemporary world, yielding huge results from acts of violence perpetrated by minimal numbers. It is not, I repeat again and again, that the mass of a particular population are violently or criminally disposed. Far from it; that population soon becomes itself the prisoner of the violence and machinations of an infinitely small minority among it. Just a few thugs, a few shots, a few bombs at the right place and time—and that is enough for disproportionate consequences to follow."
These poor, borderline racists being forced to dig their heels in (possibly to someone's face) by wokeness.
"Among that group are two contenders who have recently grown in prominence, Representative Val Demings of Florida and Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms of Atlanta. One well-known candidate, Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, has lost her perch as a front-runner. And some lower-profile candidates, like Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin, are advancing steadily in the search process."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/13/us/politics/joe-biden-vice-president.html?action=click&auth=login-email&login=email&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
And I like your golden rule. There's much in it.
Certainly that Benn Act was a gift to Johnson and Cummings. It was such dumb politics.
I'm sure you must have evidence proving that they did though, right? Please don't keep it to yourself.
https://twitter.com/jackfostr/status/1271763055173603329?s=20
hth.
It also seems inevitable that there will be an uptick in cases as Beijing is now seeing despite going for more than 50 days without a new case and how stringent China has been. It seems extraordinary that none of the 45 new positive cases were showing symptoms of Covid-19. Hasn't some expertss also suggested Covid-19 could be losing its potency?
Remainers who know Brexit is a damaging thing for a host of specific and empirical reasons, even if we have to go through with it, look to limit that damage, unaware that Leavers have no interest in doing the same.
The big BLM protests appear to consist largely of concerned citizens who are more interested in anti-racism than in the anti-capitalist baggage that some in the movement are also carrying. They then attract the usual fringe of hard left shit-stirrers out to make trouble.
The smaller hard right counter-demos appear to consist entirely of nutters.
The consequence of the behaviour of one mob going unchecked is that, of course, the other feels justified and emboldened.
https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1271735756680302592
As we saw with the story of Rachel Johnson’s tennis partner the other week, many in the traditional media do appear to have an unwritten code not to go for each other.
well, until you get a nationwide vote that it.
If you hold a demo, you attract nutters. Bit like bins and foxes. Nothing to do with the cause itself - the nazis and the anarchists will attempt to ruin everyones day.
The far right version had died dow a lot, until https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/dec/20/arts.religion1 gave the fascists the idea that a bit of street violence could get something other than a face full of baton from the TSG...
https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136?s=20
1) They are all really nazis doing false flag
2) They are paid by the police to make protests look bad
3) They really are that stupid.
having had to deal with some - I go with 3)
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1271781928572772355
that is, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings
In the US, the confrontations you talk about have happened. Nasty results, mostly.
https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/1271781345807794178?s=20
Must go. I believe my current pet project, photographing surviving church pre-Reformation art in Kent, (the typical hobby of a “cultural vandal” like me I know) can restart next week so I have some country vicars to email. May throw in some random threats of “leftist” revolutionary violence too, but maybe not. Then again, with a name like that, the Rev Ravi Holy of Wye and Brook might appreciate it.
No doubt you also think the hammer and sickle is not as bad as a swastika.
So PB has a churchcrawler :-) .
Spanish style - 14
Apart from the fact that the statue is not a historic artefact and wasn't destroyed you are 100% correct.
I also think you might need to reread 1984, and you should avoid as hominem attacks if you can, it lowers the tone.