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  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    I don't think it meant he deserved to die the way he did, I do think it's bizarre that he was probably a nastier piece of work than the people who are being besmirched daily on the back of his death
    It's not bizarre since he's dead gruesomely and they're alive.

    Have you never heard of a martyr before? When the officer asphyxiated him for nine minutes he made Floyd a martyr.
    The Chuckle Brothers (Isam and Bluest Blue) are on fire tonight!
    Perhaps bother reading what I actually wrote before giving it your nonsense?

    Here. I'll repeat it for you:

    That's not my point. Of course the police shouldn't have killed him, no matter what he had done before.

    But my point is that the new puritans who want to tear down historical figures for being insufficiently pure by today's standards cannot then turn around and make a man who was himself immoral by present standards into the new saint of their cause.

    Because that would be deeply hypocritical.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2020
    Covid numbers out of India looking really quite serious now. There always seemed a degree of inevitability that it would happen, but they appeared to have held it off well until now.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    George Floyd may (for all I know) have been the world's most evil bastard. He was still entitled to due process.
    You don't all have to virtue signal at once. I think his death was a disgrace. What I'm saying, quite clearly, is that what he did whilst alive was worse than any of the people who are being thought of as the devil for their actions 200 years ago. Yet people are cheering on their reputations being trashed, whilst making a martyr out of what seems a pretty bad guy
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    I don't think it meant he deserved to die the way he did, I do think it's bizarre that he was probably a nastier piece of work than the people who are being besmirched daily on the back of his death
    It's not bizarre since he's dead gruesomely and they're alive.

    Have you never heard of a martyr before? When the officer asphyxiated him for nine minutes he made Floyd a martyr.
    The Chuckle Brothers (Isam and Bluest Blue) are on fire tonight!
    Perhaps bother reading what I actually wrote before giving it your nonsense?

    Here. I'll repeat it for you:

    That's not my point. Of course the police shouldn't have killed him, no matter what he had done before.

    But my point is that the new puritans who want to tear down historical figures for being insufficiently pure by today's standards cannot then turn around and make a man who was himself immoral by present standards into the new saint of their cause.

    Because that would be deeply hypocritical.
    Re-read what you wrote and no, I am quite content with my earlier analysis.

    Good night.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    That is a disgusting post. You're talking about someone who was choked to death by a policeman kneeling on his neck.
    You don't say? Stop the press! We've found out how George Floyd died

    He is being let off the hook for his horrible recent crimes, whilst people from hundreds of years ago are being retrospectively found guilty of things that weren't even illegal while they were alive. He shouldn't have died, it's a disgrace, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend he was someone to worship, save that for those who've earnt it.
    Unbelievable the extent to which some PB Tories have totally lost the plot over this.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    I don't think it meant he deserved to die the way he did, I do think it's bizarre that he was probably a nastier piece of work than the people who are being besmirched daily on the back of his death
    It's not bizarre since he's dead gruesomely and they're alive.

    Have you never heard of a martyr before? When the officer asphyxiated him for nine minutes he made Floyd a martyr.
    The Chuckle Brothers (Isam and Bluest Blue) are on fire tonight!
    Perhaps bother reading what I actually wrote before giving it your nonsense?

    Here. I'll repeat it for you:

    That's not my point. Of course the police shouldn't have killed him, no matter what he had done before.

    But my point is that the new puritans who want to tear down historical figures for being insufficiently pure by today's standards cannot then turn around and make a man who was himself immoral by present standards into the new saint of their cause.

    Because that would be deeply hypocritical.
    Re-read what you wrote and no, I am quite content with my earlier analysis.

    Good night.
    So you don't give a damn about hypocrisy?

    Good night indeed.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    I don't think it meant he deserved to die the way he did, I do think it's bizarre that he was probably a nastier piece of work than the people who are being besmirched daily on the back of his death
    It's not bizarre since he's dead gruesomely and they're alive.

    Have you never heard of a martyr before? When the officer asphyxiated him for nine minutes he made Floyd a martyr.
    The Chuckle Brothers (Isam and Bluest Blue) are on fire tonight!
    Perhaps bother reading what I actually wrote before giving it your nonsense?

    Here. I'll repeat it for you:

    That's not my point. Of course the police shouldn't have killed him, no matter what he had done before.

    But my point is that the new puritans who want to tear down historical figures for being insufficiently pure by today's standards cannot then turn around and make a man who was himself immoral by present standards into the new saint of their cause.

    Because that would be deeply hypocritical.
    Exactly.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702
    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem for Starmer however is while he has good favourability ratings his party clearly still does not.

    He is still yet to complete the changes to reform and modernise and moderate his party Kinnock and John Smith managed let alone Tony Blair.

    So even if he does become PM it is hard to see an overall majority for Labour at the next general election unless major changes are made

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1270682450574880768?s=20

    This was a problem for Blair too. He overcame the problem by renaming the party New Labour. New Labour is no longer the reassurance it once was but a simple remarketing strategy would help.
    Blair already had big poll leads when he took over as leader and New Labour accelerated that.

    Tory swing voters are still not ready to risk voting for a Starmer led Labour Party as they were ready to vote for Blair and New Labour
    2020 isn't 1997, it's still 1993!

    1997 comes around again in 2024.

    With the government under the cosh for Covid-19 and a massive economic aftershock on its way, bolstered by no deal, I don't see how this government navigates the next four years without losing rather than retaining support.

    Johnson and/or his successors could pull rabbits from hats, although I can't see the rabbits or the hats at the moment..
    We are now 6 months since the last general election and the Tories are still ahead in every poll.

    6 months after the 1992 general election in October 1992 Labour were not behind in any poll and in one Gallup poll were 22% ahead of the Tories

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1992-1997
    Black Wednesday was an instant shock they didn't come back from, this looks more like death from a thousand cuts.
    Far from it, we are now in the midst of a culture war which was not the case when Blair came to power.

    The white working class voted for Blair and New Labour, the white working class will not vote for Starmer and Woke Labour
    It's official. Johnson is now a joke and PB tories are pinning their hopes on inciting a culture war.
    In 1997 50% of C2s voted for Blair and New Labour compared to a national Labour voteshare of 43%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-1997

    In 2019 47% of C2s voted for Boris and the Tories compared to a national Tory voteshare of 44%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
    Who do you think will be the tory leader at the next GE?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem for Starmer however is while he has good favourability ratings his party clearly still does not.

    He is still yet to complete the changes to reform and modernise and moderate his party Kinnock and John Smith managed let alone Tony Blair.

    So even if he does become PM it is hard to see an overall majority for Labour at the next general election unless major changes are made

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1270682450574880768?s=20

    This was a problem for Blair too. He overcame the problem by renaming the party New Labour. New Labour is no longer the reassurance it once was but a simple remarketing strategy would help.
    Blair already had big poll leads when he took over as leader and New Labour accelerated that.

    Tory swing voters are still not ready to risk voting for a Starmer led Labour Party as they were ready to vote for Blair and New Labour
    2020 isn't 1997, it's still 1993!

    1997 comes around again in 2024.

    With the government under the cosh for Covid-19 and a massive economic aftershock on its way, bolstered by no deal, I don't see how this government navigates the next four years without losing rather than retaining support.

    Johnson and/or his successors could pull rabbits from hats, although I can't see the rabbits or the hats at the moment..
    We are now 6 months since the last general election and the Tories are still ahead in every poll.

    6 months after the 1992 general election in October 1992 Labour were not behind in any poll and in one Gallup poll were 22% ahead of the Tories

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1992-1997
    Black Wednesday was an instant shock they didn't come back from, this looks more like death from a thousand cuts.
    Far from it, we are now in the midst of a culture war which was not the case when Blair came to power.

    The white working class voted for Blair and New Labour, the white working class will not vote for Starmer and Woke Labour
    It's official. Johnson is now a joke and PB tories are pinning their hopes on inciting a culture war.
    In 1997 50% of C2s voted for Blair and New Labour compared to a national Labour voteshare of 43%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-1997

    In 2019 47% of C2s voted for Boris and the Tories compared to a national Tory voteshare of 44%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
    Who do you think will be the tory leader at the next GE?
    Boris Johnson
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    With all due respect, you are either a troll or a fool. Your tag team partner is barely better.
    I'm neither. People who worship armed robbers of pregnant women are the fools
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    George Floyd may (for all I know) have been the world's most evil bastard. He was still entitled to due process.
    You don't all have to virtue signal at once. I think his death was a disgrace. What I'm saying, quite clearly, is that what he did whilst alive was worse than any of the people who are being thought of as the devil for their actions 200 years ago. Yet people are cheering on their reputations being trashed, whilst making a martyr out of what seems a pretty bad guy
    You just wrote: " I think his death was a disgrace".

    Scanning through your posts this evening, I would never have guessed.

    I am spending far too much time on this nonsense, so good night.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    George Floyd may (for all I know) have been the world's most evil bastard. He was still entitled to due process.
    You don't all have to virtue signal at once. I think his death was a disgrace. What I'm saying, quite clearly, is that what he did whilst alive was worse than any of the people who are being thought of as the devil for their actions 200 years ago. Yet people are cheering on their reputations being trashed, whilst making a martyr out of what seems a pretty bad guy
    Worse than Leopold? Worse than a slave trader? Haway man. Have a look at yourself.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    I don't think it meant he deserved to die the way he did, I do think it's bizarre that he was probably a nastier piece of work than the people who are being besmirched daily on the back of his death
    It's not bizarre since he's dead gruesomely and they're alive.

    Have you never heard of a martyr before? When the officer asphyxiated him for nine minutes he made Floyd a martyr.
    Who are alive? The people whose statues are being ripped down? That would be a story
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    George Floyd may (for all I know) have been the world's most evil bastard. He was still entitled to due process.
    You don't all have to virtue signal at once. I think his death was a disgrace. What I'm saying, quite clearly, is that what he did whilst alive was worse than any of the people who are being thought of as the devil for their actions 200 years ago. Yet people are cheering on their reputations being trashed, whilst making a martyr out of what seems a pretty bad guy
    You just wrote: " I think his death was a disgrace".

    Scanning through your posts this evening, I would never have guessed.

    I am spending far too much time on this nonsense, so good night.
    Yes he was a wrongun who shouldn't have been killed. Is that so difficult to understand? Obviously

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    George Floyd may (for all I know) have been the world's most evil bastard. He was still entitled to due process.
    You don't all have to virtue signal at once. I think his death was a disgrace. What I'm saying, quite clearly, is that what he did whilst alive was worse than any of the people who are being thought of as the devil for their actions 200 years ago. Yet people are cheering on their reputations being trashed, whilst making a martyr out of what seems a pretty bad guy
    Worse than Leopold? Worse than a slave trader? Haway man. Have a look at yourself.
    Ever held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint yourself?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Civilised people normally try and help the arrest in that situation.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    That is a disgusting post. You're talking about someone who was choked to death by a policeman kneeling on his neck.
    You don't say? Stop the press! We've found out how George Floyd died

    He is being let off the hook for his horrible recent crimes, whilst people from hundreds of years ago are being retrospectively found guilty of things that weren't even illegal while they were alive. He shouldn't have died, it's a disgrace, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend he was someone to worship, save that for those who've earnt it.
    Unbelievable the extent to which some PB Tories have totally lost the plot over this.
    Who are they? Not me
  • Michael Deacon of The Daily Telegraph, reporting on Boris' performance at PMQs earlier:

    His answer contained so little – and yet said so much.

    It was PMQs, and Kirsty Blackman (SNP, Aberdeen North) had just asked a question about Donald Trump. In June last year, Boris Johnson had said Trump possessed “many, many good qualities”. Did the Prime Minister still think so? And, if he did, would he care to list these many, many good qualities?

    On the surface, a simple question. But also a deft way to put the PM on the spot.

    Mr Johnson rose. He began by saying that black lives mattered (“As I have said many times, but it is important for the House to hear it again”). He repeated that the death of George Floyd had appalled him. Only then did he address the question.

    “As for the qualities of Mr Trump,” said Mr Johnson, “let me say that, among many other things, he is the President of the United States.” At which point he launched hastily into a boilerplate homage to the US itself, and its importance as an ally.

    Which was striking. Because he hadn’t been asked about that. He had been asked to list the personal qualities of Mr Trump. And all he could find to say, apparently, was that Mr Trump was President of the United States. Which isn’t so much a quality as a job title. A plain statement of biographical fact. The opening line of his wikipedia entry. Nothing more.

    He might as well have said: “Mr Speaker, Donald Trump comes in for a lot of criticism, but even his most rabid foe would have to concede that he was born in the district of Queens, New York City, on June 14, 1946. Critics should also acknowledge that his middle name is John, and that his father was a property developer. Furthermore, he attended the University of Pennsylvania, weighs 17st 5lb, and has five children. The honourable members opposite may not like Mr Trump – but I hope they would at least have the good grace to give him that.”

    Never mind damning with faint praise. It was damning with no praise at all."

    He really isn't up to the job at all is he?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Floyd was let off the hook? I thought he served time for it. Do you think the notoriously soppy US justice system went easy on him?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andrew said:

    Covid numbers out of India looking really quite serious now. There always seemed a degree of inevitability that it would happen, but they appeared to have held it off well until now.

    India is the second most populous nation on earth but still only 6th on Covid cases and not even in the top 10 nations for Covid deaths.

    Modi is still doing very well
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    George Floyd may (for all I know) have been the world's most evil bastard. He was still entitled to due process.
    You don't all have to virtue signal at once. I think his death was a disgrace. What I'm saying, quite clearly, is that what he did whilst alive was worse than any of the people who are being thought of as the devil for their actions 200 years ago. Yet people are cheering on their reputations being trashed, whilst making a martyr out of what seems a pretty bad guy
    Worse than Leopold? Worse than a slave trader? Haway man. Have a look at yourself.
    Ever held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint yourself?
    Whataboutery of the highest order. There are genuine arguments for your point of view. You aren't advancing them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    HYUFD said:

    Andrew said:

    Covid numbers out of India looking really quite serious now. There always seemed a degree of inevitability that it would happen, but they appeared to have held it off well until now.

    India is the second most populous nation on earth but still only 6th on Covid cases and not even in the top 10 nations for Covid deaths.

    Modi is still doing very well
    The populists' last, best hope. Go Narindra!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Floyd was let off the hook? I thought he served time for it. Do you think the notoriously soppy US justice system went easy on him?
    The fire and brimstone brigade judging what happened legally 200 years ago turn into soppy social workers when they glaze over Floyd's character is what I'm saying
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    So about Marx, another antisemite, surely he has to go now too? No?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited June 2020
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Floyd was let off the hook? I thought he served time for it. Do you think the notoriously soppy US justice system went easy on him?
    The fire and brimstone brigade judging what happened legally 200 years ago turn into soppy social workers when they glaze over Floyd's character is what I'm saying
    So he wasn't let off the hook. Glad we cleared that up, we don't want them borderline racists further riled up.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    George Floyd may (for all I know) have been the world's most evil bastard. He was still entitled to due process.
    You don't all have to virtue signal at once. I think his death was a disgrace. What I'm saying, quite clearly, is that what he did whilst alive was worse than any of the people who are being thought of as the devil for their actions 200 years ago. Yet people are cheering on their reputations being trashed, whilst making a martyr out of what seems a pretty bad guy
    Worse than Leopold? Worse than a slave trader? Haway man. Have a look at yourself.
    Ever held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint yourself?
    Whataboutery of the highest order. There are genuine arguments for your point of view. You aren't advancing them.
    If the Bristol Slave trader had also held a gun up to a pregnant woman but served time for it, do you think that would stop the mob mentioning it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Here's a US police killing that I think had reasonable justification.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-released-fatal-shooting-unarmed-black-man-n-j-state-n1228211

    Suspect for reasons only known to himself gets out the car, something I'd never dare do particularly in the USA where you have to assume a police officer assumes you're possibly armed or heading back to your car to get a firearm or some such.

    George Floyd's wasn't a paniced situation in the slightest. He was completely subdued with 3 other officers around and noone else involved in the incident at the time. The officer has been rightfully charged with his killing.
    I don't think the other 3 will be found guilty, though they should certainly have stepped in.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    So about Marx, another antisemite, surely he has to go now too? No?
    Are there any Marx statues in UK? Genuine question. I know there is his grave, but AFAIK we aren't at the grave desecration stage yet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    dixiedean said:

    So about Marx, another antisemite, surely he has to go now too? No?
    Are there any Marx statues in UK? Genuine question. I know there is his grave, but AFAIK we aren't at the grave desecration stage yet.
    The statue of him is ontop of the grave.

    Marx monument unveiled in Highgate cemetery

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/mar/15/karl-marx-monument-highgate-cemetery-archive-1956

    The thing is until all this loony stuff kicked off, I actually though the UK were very sensible lot that could look at statues and monuments of people they didn't agree with. I don't agree with Marx, but he is an important historical figure, and the monument shouldn't be vandalized nor removed.

    Putting plaques explaining the full context of historical figures to me seems like the most sensible comprise, but the mob won't have that.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Floyd was let off the hook? I thought he served time for it. Do you think the notoriously soppy US justice system went easy on him?
    The fire and brimstone brigade judging what happened legally 200 years ago turn into soppy social workers when they glaze over Floyd's character is what I'm saying
    So he wasn't let off the hook. Glad we cleared up, we don't want the borderline racist further riled up.
    Yes he is being let off the hook. You're not stupid, you know I'm not saying he didn't serve time, how would we know he did it otherwise?!

    But look at the horror when I mention his record. Yet those with no criminal record are simultaneously being treated as the worst people to walk the earth for holding what we're contemptuous views at a time before we were born.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    edited June 2020
    For the record, if a black man savagely murdered an off duty white policeman, and it later turned out that the policeman beat his wife, I wouldn't be making excuses for the murderer.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    So about Marx, another antisemite, surely he has to go now too? No?
    Was Marx one of those self hating Jews that the alt right are always on about?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Floyd was let off the hook? I thought he served time for it. Do you think the notoriously soppy US justice system went easy on him?
    The fire and brimstone brigade judging what happened legally 200 years ago turn into soppy social workers when they glaze over Floyd's character is what I'm saying
    So he wasn't let off the hook. Glad we cleared up, we don't want the borderline racist further riled up.
    Yes he is being let off the hook. You're not stupid, you know I'm not saying he didn't serve time, how would we know he did it otherwise?!

    But look at the horror when I mention his record. Yet those with no criminal record are simultaneously being treated as the worst people to walk the earth for holding what we're contemptuous views at a time before we were born.
    I'm unsure what being let off the hook means in this circumstance.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Yep, you're letting your true colours come through now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Who is advising these companies? And why do they listen to them?

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1270812775829450752?s=19

    It gets attention, and I imagine they think all publicity is good publicity. I cannot say I get all that worried about the morality of my products. A lot of them are probably produced by slaves or workers treated like crap anyway.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    rcs1000 said:

    For the record, if a black man savagely murdered an off duty white policeman, and it later turned out that the policeman beat his wife, I wouldn't be making excuses for the murderer.

    Bully for you.

    Would you gloss over the wife beating and make a martyr of the policeman though?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited June 2020

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Floyd was let off the hook? I thought he served time for it. Do you think the notoriously soppy US justice system went easy on him?
    The fire and brimstone brigade judging what happened legally 200 years ago turn into soppy social workers when they glaze over Floyd's character is what I'm saying
    So he wasn't let off the hook. Glad we cleared up, we don't want the borderline racist further riled up.
    Yes he is being let off the hook. You're not stupid, you know I'm not saying he didn't serve time, how would we know he did it otherwise?!

    But look at the horror when I mention his record. Yet those with no criminal record are simultaneously being treated as the worst people to walk the earth for holding what we're contemptuous views at a time before we were born.
    I'm unsure what being let off the hook means in this circumstance.
    Oh well have a long think about it
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....

    Again, why it is so hard to insert a thing at the start to say, contains outdated language and stereotypes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem for Starmer however is while he has good favourability ratings his party clearly still does not.

    He is still yet to complete the changes to reform and modernise and moderate his party Kinnock and John Smith managed let alone Tony Blair.

    So even if he does become PM it is hard to see an overall majority for Labour at the next general election unless major changes are made

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1270682450574880768?s=20

    This was a problem for Blair too. He overcame the problem by renaming the party New Labour. New Labour is no longer the reassurance it once was but a simple remarketing strategy would help.
    Blair already had big poll leads when he took over as leader and New Labour accelerated that.

    Tory swing voters are still not ready to risk voting for a Starmer led Labour Party as they were ready to vote for Blair and New Labour
    2020 isn't 1997, it's still 1993!

    1997 comes around again in 2024.

    With the government under the cosh for Covid-19 and a massive economic aftershock on its way, bolstered by no deal, I don't see how this government navigates the next four years without losing rather than retaining support.

    Johnson and/or his successors could pull rabbits from hats, although I can't see the rabbits or the hats at the moment..
    We are now 6 months since the last general election and the Tories are still ahead in every poll.

    6 months after the 1992 general election in October 1992 Labour were not behind in any poll and in one Gallup poll were 22% ahead of the Tories

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1992-1997
    Black Wednesday was an instant shock they didn't come back from, this looks more like death from a thousand cuts.
    Far from it, we are now in the midst of a culture war which was not the case when Blair came to power.

    The white working class voted for Blair and New Labour, the white working class will not vote for Starmer and Woke Labour
    It's official. Johnson is now a joke and PB tories are pinning their hopes on inciting a culture war.
    How many elections in a row have the Tories won again? Perhaps you might wish to check which joke parties keep getting their arses handed to them at the ballot box...
    The blue bubble just popped. Johnson is a joke and will likely run away before facing the electorate again.
    He doesn't need to face it again. If the bubble 'pops' 14 years into Tory led governments that's not precisely a disaster is it? If he fights the next one and loses he'll have been PM for over 5 years and with a landslide win on his record - even if he lost that overwhelming good position, that cannot be taken away from him.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Mango said:

    isam said:

    Alistair said:

    isam said:

    All these statues being taken down for not being virtuous enough by modern standards hundreds of years ago, triggered by the ill treatment of George Floyd... who held a pregnant woman up at gunpoint in 2007 . This is utterly bizarre, the world has gone mad

    For someone who thinks it doesn't matter you sure do bring up his criminal record a lot.
    In an age when historical figures are being judged by the standards of the present, surely it makes sense to judge him by the standards of the present too, no?
    He should be let off the hook because black people were exploited 200 years ago
    Yep, you're letting your true colours come through now.

    The Krays were lovely lads, only killed their own. Looked after their old mum
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Must admit I was slightly surprised the Belgians had a statue of Leopold up. He killed more people than Pol Pot.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    For the record, if a black man savagely murdered an off duty white policeman, and it later turned out that the policeman beat his wife, I wouldn't be making excuses for the murderer.

    Bully for you.

    Would you gloss over the wife beating and make a martyr of the policeman though?
    I don't think I made George Floyd the martyr, I think that was Officer Derek Chauvin.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....

    Again, why it is so hard to insert a thing at the start to say, contains outdated language and stereotypes.
    Because it's not enough to place a trigger warning on it. If people see it they might actually enjoy it despite the outdated language and stereotypes, and that can hardly be permitted.

    Though personally I've never seen it, and to avoid being driven by a reaction against something, I'll continue to never see it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....

    Again, why it is so hard to insert a thing at the start to say, contains outdated language and stereotypes.
    Because it's not enough to place a trigger warning on it. If people see it they might actually enjoy it despite the outdated language and stereotypes, and that can hardly be permitted.

    Though personally I've never seen it, and to avoid being driven by a reaction against something, I'll continue to never see it.
    You could watch it in a few months' time when everyone's talking about something completely different.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    isam said:



    The Krays were lovely lads, only killed their own. Looked after their old mum

    Genuinely, what are you so fearful of?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    dixiedean said:

    So about Marx, another antisemite, surely he has to go now too? No?
    Are there any Marx statues in UK? Genuine question. I know there is his grave, but AFAIK we aren't at the grave desecration stage yet.
    There's a statue of him in Highgate Cemetery.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    For the record, if a black man savagely murdered an off duty white policeman, and it later turned out that the policeman beat his wife, I wouldn't be making excuses for the murderer.

    Bully for you.

    Would you gloss over the wife beating and make a martyr of the policeman though?
    I don't think I made George Floyd the martyr, I think that was Officer Derek Chauvin.
    I wasn't making excuses for his murderer, unless you don't read the posts I'm surprised you didn't see me say what happened was a disgrace. Anyone with half a brain can see that I am comparing the light touch treatment to Floyd's horrible criminal cv with the Old Testament approach to that of historical British figures
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Mango said:

    isam said:



    The Krays were lovely lads, only killed their own. Looked after their old mum

    Genuinely, what are you so fearful of?
    Never been good with heights
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem for Starmer however is while he has good favourability ratings his party clearly still does not.

    He is still yet to complete the changes to reform and modernise and moderate his party Kinnock and John Smith managed let alone Tony Blair.

    So even if he does become PM it is hard to see an overall majority for Labour at the next general election unless major changes are made

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1270682450574880768?s=20

    This was a problem for Blair too. He overcame the problem by renaming the party New Labour. New Labour is no longer the reassurance it once was but a simple remarketing strategy would help.
    Blair already had big poll leads when he took over as leader and New Labour accelerated that.

    Tory swing voters are still not ready to risk voting for a Starmer led Labour Party as they were ready to vote for Blair and New Labour
    2020 isn't 1997, it's still 1993!

    1997 comes around again in 2024.

    With the government under the cosh for Covid-19 and a massive economic aftershock on its way, bolstered by no deal, I don't see how this government navigates the next four years without losing rather than retaining support.

    Johnson and/or his successors could pull rabbits from hats, although I can't see the rabbits or the hats at the moment..
    We are now 6 months since the last general election and the Tories are still ahead in every poll.

    6 months after the 1992 general election in October 1992 Labour were not behind in any poll and in one Gallup poll were 22% ahead of the Tories

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1992-1997
    Black Wednesday was an instant shock they didn't come back from, this looks more like death from a thousand cuts.
    Far from it, we are now in the midst of a culture war which was not the case when Blair came to power.

    The white working class voted for Blair and New Labour, the white working class will not vote for Starmer and Woke Labour
    It's official. Johnson is now a joke and PB tories are pinning their hopes on inciting a culture war.
    In 1997 50% of C2s voted for Blair and New Labour compared to a national Labour voteshare of 43%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-1997

    In 2019 47% of C2s voted for Boris and the Tories compared to a national Tory voteshare of 44%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
    -4 to +3 Conservative in a pair of polls is pretty small, even before you consider the changes in employment structure that have caused C2 to become the oldest NRS grade in respondent age, at least among people at work (i.e. when you exclude the huge cadres of pensioners in NRS grade E).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited June 2020
    If the statue botherers want a real challenge there's plenty of Maos about in China. 42 million geometric mean death toll estimate according to wikipedia !
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    That historical context argument in two tweets.


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1270827458397384705
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    isam said:

    Mango said:

    isam said:



    The Krays were lovely lads, only killed their own. Looked after their old mum

    Genuinely, what are you so fearful of?
    Never been good with heights
    Guess that explains your moral outlook then.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
    (I edited that bit out to focus on the polling point - but I don't mind a discussion on this-)
    They want people who can be easily swayed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    That historical context argument in two tweets.


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1270827458397384705

    But but but but the Guardian have made up for in the meantime, always been on the right side of history, so they can be excused....or some such bullshit. I have this funny feeling the book burners will give the Guardian a pass, in the same way as they call vandalism of Marx statue horrendous.

    And of course this is the problem....as soon as we start looking, we find history is complex.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Random factoid of the day - from hearing that Obama was the fifth african american senator I was curious about the others. Turns out the first was in 1870 in Mississipi, for a year, and another in 1875, but it then took until 1967 for another. Wiki suggests a similar or even longer period between the first MPs of african hertiage in this country. Apparently the very first mixed-race MP was also a slave owner, which would make for an awkward memorial I suppose.

    But at a glance it seems remarkable the level of transformation in the Commons in a short period of recent times.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    Mango said:

    isam said:

    Mango said:

    isam said:



    The Krays were lovely lads, only killed their own. Looked after their old mum

    Genuinely, what are you so fearful of?
    Never been good with heights
    Guess that explains your moral outlook then.
    Pretty good!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    EPG said:

    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
    (I edited that bit out to focus on the polling point - but I don't mind a discussion on this-)
    They want people who can be easily swayed.
    Didn't the poll suggest all age groups don't want brands taking sides in politics?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    "Just another PB tory"?

    Of course. We are of one mind. I just forget whose it is.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    That historical context argument in two tweets.


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1270827458397384705

    But but but but the Guardian have made up for in the meantime, always been on the right side of history, so they can be excused....or some such bullshit. I have this funny feeling the book burners will give the Guardian a pass, in the same way as they call vandalism of Marx statue horrendous.

    And of course this is the problem....as soon as we start looking, we find history is complex.
    Sadly, and I don't think it is restricted to one political train of thought, people don't want to look to find complexity. What is politics if not an attempt to provide simplicity to things ineffably complex*? At least in this day an age when a good old massacre as the answer to most problems is frowned upon.

    wait, that's religion, isn't it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    JEREMY Corbyn fanatics want a statue of the ­former Labour leader to replace the Edward ­Colston monument.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11833544/jeremy-corbyn-fans-want-statue-of-former-labour-leader-to-replace-edward-colston-monument-in-bristol/
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    JEREMY Corbyn fanatics want a statue of the ­former Labour leader to replace the Edward ­Colston monument.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11833544/jeremy-corbyn-fans-want-statue-of-former-labour-leader-to-replace-edward-colston-monument-in-bristol/

    Wouldn't they just have to tear it down again once they found out about his, er, attitudes? Bit of a waste of time and energy.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    edited June 2020
    RobD said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
    (I edited that bit out to focus on the polling point - but I don't mind a discussion on this-)
    They want people who can be easily swayed.
    Didn't the poll suggest all age groups don't want brands taking sides in politics?
    No, it suggested almost nobody over 65 wants it, and lots of people under 25 do. If you're a cosmetics company as opposed to say Coke, you don't need a 100% market share.

    (Later in the Twitter thread in question, Goodwin also remarks on polling that says taking stances on LGBT, social, environmental issues is very strongly approved. Nowt as queer as folk, if we're still allowed say so!)

    This is a genuinely interesting topic and you can read more deeply about the Levi's - Wrangler divide among USA consumers, which is apparent from evidence there but that you might not realise over here in Europe.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020

    JEREMY Corbyn fanatics want a statue of the ­former Labour leader to replace the Edward ­Colston monument.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11833544/jeremy-corbyn-fans-want-statue-of-former-labour-leader-to-replace-edward-colston-monument-in-bristol/

    I'd have thought it would make more sense to go outside Tony Benn House in Bristol. I believe it's a Union office.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited June 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    I've read the book and watched the movie. Personally I thought Hattie McDaniel's performance was a bit of a caricature though that may be the way the part was written.

    What's your opinion of the book, film and performance?

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    Imagine if a few months after the 1997 election Tory activists (having just suffered a big defeat) had started demanding the taking down of statues of people they didn't like, like Karl Marx for instance.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    EPG said:

    RobD said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
    (I edited that bit out to focus on the polling point - but I don't mind a discussion on this-)
    They want people who can be easily swayed.
    Didn't the poll suggest all age groups don't want brands taking sides in politics?
    No, it suggested almost nobody over 65 wants it, and lots of people under 25 do. If you're a cosmetics company as opposed to say Coke, you don't need a 100% market share.

    (Later in the Twitter thread in question, Goodwin also remarks on polling that says taking stances on LGBT, social, environmental issues is very strongly approved. Nowt as queer as folk, if we're still allowed say so!)
    But, on balance, they don't. And in terms of the bottom line, that's not good.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    @EPG - do you have a good link to read up on the great jean divide?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    That's what any PB Tory would say. So transparent.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    RobD said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    That's what any PB Tory would say. So transparent.
    I mean it isn't like I have been on here over the past 3 months slamming the government on late lockdown, testing strategy, the tracking app, that Big Dom should have gone straight away or anything like that. And stated that I thought Boris was operating at Corbyn levels of competence.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    dixiedean said:

    That historical context argument in two tweets.


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1270827458397384705

    But but but but the Guardian have made up for in the meantime, always been on the right side of history, so they can be excused....or some such bullshit. I have this funny feeling the book burners will give the Guardian a pass, in the same way as they call vandalism of Marx statue horrendous.

    And of course this is the problem....as soon as we start looking, we find history is complex.
    Indeed it is. We currently have two Americas. Each radically different. Yet we seem hell bent on pursuing an alliance with them. Whichever one it turns out to be temporarily.
    The Lancashire cotton famine is a quite remarkable and almost unknown part of our history. And a culture war in the NW.
    I blame the teaching unions. Or Michael Gove. Delete as appropriate.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    RobD said:

    EPG said:

    RobD said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
    (I edited that bit out to focus on the polling point - but I don't mind a discussion on this-)
    They want people who can be easily swayed.
    Didn't the poll suggest all age groups don't want brands taking sides in politics?
    No, it suggested almost nobody over 65 wants it, and lots of people under 25 do. If you're a cosmetics company as opposed to say Coke, you don't need a 100% market share.

    (Later in the Twitter thread in question, Goodwin also remarks on polling that says taking stances on LGBT, social, environmental issues is very strongly approved. Nowt as queer as folk, if we're still allowed say so!)
    But, on balance, they don't. And in terms of the bottom line, that's not good.
    On balance, you are betting as a marketer that the 30% care a lot and the 40% saying no don't really care. It is not like political betting in that it's not one-man one-vote, valence and engagement matters more.
    I would just google Levi's Wrangler Democrats Republicans to see some media about the polling over there. It's also clear from the brand identities that those firms have created in the USA, e.g. Levi's touts its labour history, Star Wars connections, etc.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    i.e. a "low-information voters" strategy works in democratic votes every 2-5 years, but not the marketplace.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
    With the greatest of respect, I would make a constructive suggestion that if your arguments are right, you should consider using them rather than ad hominem comments about "just another PB Tory" after 12 posts.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    EPG said:

    RobD said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
    (I edited that bit out to focus on the polling point - but I don't mind a discussion on this-)
    They want people who can be easily swayed.
    Didn't the poll suggest all age groups don't want brands taking sides in politics?
    No, it suggested almost nobody over 65 wants it, and lots of people under 25 do. If you're a cosmetics company as opposed to say Coke, you don't need a 100% market share.

    (Later in the Twitter thread in question, Goodwin also remarks on polling that says taking stances on LGBT, social, environmental issues is very strongly approved. Nowt as queer as folk, if we're still allowed say so!)

    This is a genuinely interesting topic and you can read more deeply about the Levi's - Wrangler divide among USA consumers, which is apparent from evidence there but that you might not realise over here in Europe.
    I read somewhere that cowboys preferred Wranglers because the thicker double lapped seam was on the outside of the jeans rather than the inside and therefore made them more comfortable for riding. May just have been marketing guff of course..
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702
    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
    With the greatest of respect, I would make a constructive suggestion that if your arguments are right, you should consider using them rather than ad hominem comments about "just another PB Tory" after 12 posts.
    I've been reading the site for decades, the sheer battiness of the contributions since the weekend have finally driven me to start pointing and laughing.

    More constructive contributions may follow.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    That historical context argument in two tweets.


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1270827458397384705

    But but but but the Guardian have made up for in the meantime, always been on the right side of history, so they can be excused....or some such bullshit. I have this funny feeling the book burners will give the Guardian a pass, in the same way as they call vandalism of Marx statue horrendous.

    And of course this is the problem....as soon as we start looking, we find history is complex.
    Yes it is. Maybe we should all look harder? The Lancashire cotton famine is a quite remarkable and almost unknown part of our history. With strange bedfellows alliances. Maybe it could teach us a little about our present situation? When we are hell bent on pursuing an alliance with 2 radically different Americas.
    And It was a culture war in the NW.
    But history is poorly taught.
    I blame the lefty teaching unions. Or Michael Gove.
    Delete as appropriate.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
    With the greatest of respect, I would make a constructive suggestion that if your arguments are right, you should consider using them rather than ad hominem comments about "just another PB Tory" after 12 posts.
    Not sure what you are expecting. Their first two words on PB were "PB Tories".
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    EPG said:

    RobD said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:



    It may not surprise you when seeing these numbers that all brands want 18-24s, and no brands want 55+.

    Brands don't want people who have money...interesting logic.
    (I edited that bit out to focus on the polling point - but I don't mind a discussion on this-)
    They want people who can be easily swayed.
    Didn't the poll suggest all age groups don't want brands taking sides in politics?
    No, it suggested almost nobody over 65 wants it, and lots of people under 25 do. If you're a cosmetics company as opposed to say Coke, you don't need a 100% market share.

    (Later in the Twitter thread in question, Goodwin also remarks on polling that says taking stances on LGBT, social, environmental issues is very strongly approved. Nowt as queer as folk, if we're still allowed say so!)

    This is a genuinely interesting topic and you can read more deeply about the Levi's - Wrangler divide among USA consumers, which is apparent from evidence there but that you might not realise over here in Europe.
    I read somewhere that cowboys preferred Wranglers because the thicker double lapped seam was on the outside of the jeans rather than the inside and therefore made them more comfortable for riding. May just have been marketing guff of course..
    My Levi's buys have turned into complete Lib Dem latte drinker spandex over the last decade, since the athleisure trend started to boss the rag trade. Now they'd probably snap before they tore.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Tres said:

    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
    With the greatest of respect, I would make a constructive suggestion that if your arguments are right, you should consider using them rather than ad hominem comments about "just another PB Tory" after 12 posts.
    I've been reading the site for decades, the sheer battiness of the contributions since the weekend have finally driven me to start pointing and laughing.

    More constructive contributions may follow.
    I've been reading the site since before the appearance of Angus bloody Reid, but it hasn't really been online for quite decades yet.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    HYUFD said:
    History is extremely poorly taught in the US.
    I blame Michael Gove.
    Whyever not?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
    With the greatest of respect, I would make a constructive suggestion that if your arguments are right, you should consider using them rather than ad hominem comments about "just another PB Tory" after 12 posts.
    I've been reading the site for decades, the sheer battiness of the contributions since the weekend have finally driven me to start pointing and laughing.

    More constructive contributions may follow.
    I've been reading the site since before the appearance of Angus bloody Reid, but it hasn't really been online for quite decades yet.
    Who can forget the smiling gordons. Heady days.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702
    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
    With the greatest of respect, I would make a constructive suggestion that if your arguments are right, you should consider using them rather than ad hominem comments about "just another PB Tory" after 12 posts.
    I've been reading the site for decades, the sheer battiness of the contributions since the weekend have finally driven me to start pointing and laughing.

    More constructive contributions may follow.
    I've been reading the site since before the appearance of Angus bloody Reid, but it hasn't really been online for quite decades yet.
    The 00s, the 10s and now the 20s.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Another little quiver in the Trump foundations.

    https://twitter.com/kampeas/status/1270856448927547392?s=20
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    Tres said:

    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    EPG said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I notice that HBO has removed Gone with the Wind (at least for the moment). I think the list of films that will be verboten is going to be extremely long.

    It'll probably increase the popularity of the films. I've never seen Gone With The Wind but I'd be interested to watch it after this.
    First Black actor to win an oscar....
    They even let her sit at a segregated table right at the back of the theatre to collect it. Heartwarming!
    Right...so perhaps a opportunity to educate people. Watch the movie, find out the black actor won an oscar, but still wasn't treated equally.

    Instead, no can it, hide it all away in a vault, burn it. We can't have anybody appreciate that a black actor at that time could be really good, despite all the injustice against them.
    Just another PB tory getting wound up by statues of people they've never heard of and movies they've never bothered to watch.
    Interesting take, as not a Tory and at one point lived in Bristol for 5 years so well aware of the likes of Colston and Wills before all this blew up.
    Interesting handle for a not a Tory.
    With the greatest of respect, I would make a constructive suggestion that if your arguments are right, you should consider using them rather than ad hominem comments about "just another PB Tory" after 12 posts.
    I've been reading the site for decades, the sheer battiness of the contributions since the weekend have finally driven me to start pointing and laughing.

    More constructive contributions may follow.
    I've been reading the site since before the appearance of Angus bloody Reid, but it hasn't really been online for quite decades yet.
    The 00s, the 10s and now the 20s.
    Where did all the time go?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Sounds like the Seattle Commune is going about as well as expected. They now have a "warlord".

    On the positive side they've developed a newfound love of borders.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    "Johnson’s luck has temporarily run out. The scientists gave him the wrong advice at the start, the bureaucracy let the country down appallingly, he and his top team caught the virus and he is now making his own, unforced errors, as he struggles to push through the unlocking of Britain. Even his staunchest supporters are baffled: what is going on? Tory MPs are panicking, and for once have a point. Why is our crisis dragging on so much longer than that in France, Italy, Spain or Germany?"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/10/scrap-social-distancing-schools-save-childrens-education/
This discussion has been closed.