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  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Oh, absolutely. This was the great irony, that the Tory and Episcopalian nobles who had so disastrously fermented and encouraged the risings, then crushed the remaining Gaels under foot in their greedy dash for quick cash. The word “Tory” has been dirt in Scotland ever since, and led to the Liberals, then Labour, dominating the country.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Sounds like how with drone strikes supposedly any male adult killed is counted as a target.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Randomly shooting people didn't encourage their enraged relatives to calm down? Its a surprise isn't it...

    Just think of the times to come in Murica. Trump will try to deploy the troops. States will try and stop them. Never mind using troops to shoot people, we could be looking at a "The Siege" style stand-off between the military and law enforcement.

    That's ok though. There is no limit on the number of people that Donald "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters" Trump is prepared to have killed to get re-elected.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Today looks to be the last of the hot weather for a while, with rain forecast for tomorrow.
    Let's hope we have plenty of rain over the next few weeks.
    In the south of England where I am it looks like there will be a fair bit, particularly next week. In northern Scotland it is raining at the moment.
    Quite a bit? Umm. Not really. A few millimetres at most then probably back to dry but cool by the weekend.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    Of course its not relevant.. noone lives in scitland.
    Bit early for the bottle, n’est ce pas?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I thought that remote procedural rules had lapsed, deliberately, so its not about voting to end them as needing to vote in an unusual way on how to vote in future?

    It has not been well handled.
    It would appear to be an obvious case justifying a free vote.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I thought that remote procedural rules had lapsed, deliberately, so its not about voting to end them as needing to vote in an unusual way on how to vote in future?

    It has not been well handled.
    It would appear to be an obvious case justifying a free vote.
    In what is an entirely procedural issue, absolutely. Its dumb to expend political capital on such things.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.

    Its desperation. Shagger needs a braying mob behind him to be able to bluster his way through. SKS keeps tearing him apart with brutal dispatch box cross-examinations and follow-up statements and pressure. Jacob Lounge-Lizard hopes that the mob will be able to roar Shagger into calling SKS the establishment or something.

    As a tweet said upthread, they think they are acting from a position of strength, when all can see weakness
    That is unlikely to work. It was Boris who ended barracking in order to be able to hear the question and think of an answer. Returning to barracking is more likely to disrupt the Prime Minister than SKS, who prepares oven-ready questions in advance, and who just needs to remember not to shout because the microphones will pick up his voice.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited June 2020
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I thought that remote procedural rules had lapsed, deliberately, so its not about voting to end them as needing to vote in an unusual way on how to vote in future?

    It has not been well handled.
    It would appear to be an obvious case justifying a free vote.
    We could not see more clearly that, for the government, Brexit is more important than dealing with the pandemic.
  • alednamalednam Posts: 186
    You distinguish 'before' and 'after'. I think that if there's to be a chance of getting things right for the future, more attention must be paid to a more distant past than you allow. I think we need 2 enquiries
    Enquiry 1: Preparedness. From g.e. 2010 to 27 Jan 2020.
    Enquiry 2. Handling. From 27 Jan 2020 to ...?
    27 Jan 2020 is a natural cut off date, being the date on which the Sec of State gave an oral statement to Parliament about the virus, saying "The UK is one of the first countries in the world to have developed an accurate test for this coronavirus. PHE has confirmed to me that it can scale up this test."
    G.e. 2010 is a reasonable starting point for Enquiry 1, being the date following which the Lansley reforms to the NHS were introduced: it could take account of local health experts' opposition to those reforms: they said that the abolition of Strategic Health authorities would stand in the way of an effective UK response to a pandemic. [In due course PHE would (a) not have effective local funding, thanks to austerity, would (b) insist on centralization of testing facilities.] And Enquiry 1 would take account of the Pandemic Response Plan of 2014 (and the extent to which it had not been implemented) and the Biological Security Strategy of 2018 (and the extent to which it failed to be noticed)

    Enquiry 1 could be set up NOW.
    It might be a relief to the present Inner Cabinet that they wouldn't need to be involved in Enquiry 1. Indeed to the extent that decisions made in the past had hobbled the implementation of an effective response to Covid19, they might be glad that this should have been demonstrated.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Biden has a 12 point lead in the latest poll.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    I understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    Politics is, unfortunately, 90% trappings and 10% substance.

    So, even if the substantive differences are small (but arguably important), they are vastly outweighed by the zeitgeist.

    BoZo is a diminished, untrustworthy and confused dud.
    Sturgeon is a reasonable, pleasant and competent leader.

    In the harsh world of politics, that is enough.
    The Tories were on 45% across the UK and the SNP 47% in Scotland last weekend, little difference
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I thought that remote procedural rules had lapsed, deliberately, so its not about voting to end them as needing to vote in an unusual way on how to vote in future?

    It has not been well handled.
    Strangely there were people on here at the weekend suggesting this was a relatively simple, straightforward matter that the dumbass pubic were still incapable of understanding.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    Of course its not relevant.. noone lives in scitland.
    Bit early for the bottle, n’est ce pas?
    Rooty's been on the Brainforce again.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    To be honest if people are protesting against police violence then I don't think more police violence is the correct move to make them stop.

    It is a fine line. When the London riots occurred, in a desire not to inflame the situation, the police went too easy and the widespread looting started and now people all see it on tv and the internet and it spreads to other cities.

    The US have a bigger problem where police discrimination is a much wider and deeper problem + the militarized nature is a bad look for calming things, but has to be put against a more violent society and mixed in with authorities in some cities going very easy on the far left violent groups for too long. And of course Orange man says all the wrong things.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Dura_Ace said:

    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.

    While many moons earlier, having 2 PARA up the road from us in Co. Tyrone did not aid peace and tranquility in the region.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    Two turds with Scottish roots. A badge of shame.
    Great game this. Two turds with Scottish roots.




  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    The French have been having riots in the suburbs for weeks or months, but they haven't really been reported here unless you know where to look.

    I'm sure we're in for a tough time when the government finally stops supporting zombie companies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Quickly scanned down the page here. Unless you've been recently to the US and spent some time on your feet in the cities, not in your hired 4x4's, you may not get the divisions, the visceral fermenting cauldron of volcanic anger waiting to erupt.

    None of this surprises me in the slightest. America is a very sad place.

    It's a story, of course, and it's awful. But I suggest the real story is that America's day as a superpower is disappearing down the proverbial.

    Look to Asia. The world is changing.

    America may not be the sole superpower again but will still be a superpower even if China and India join it
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    Of course its not relevant.. noone lives in scitland.
    Bit early for the bottle, n’est ce pas?
    Rooty's been on the Brainforce again.
    We just need Malc for the full house...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    We took an early decision not to use models. Too many unknowns.

    Fascinating interview with Sweden's top man in Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/06/02/architect-swedens-covid-19-plan-warns-uk-not-hold-vaccine/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    The French have been having riots in the suburbs for weeks or months, but they haven't really been reported here unless you know where to look.

    I'm sure we're in for a tough time when the government finally stops supporting zombie companies.
    That's because that happens in France every week....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    On topic, I’m quite happy to serve on this inquiry.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    The French have been having riots in the suburbs for weeks or months, but they haven't really been reported here unless you know where to look.

    I'm sure we're in for a tough time when the government finally stops supporting zombie companies.
    That's because that happens in France every week....
    quite.

    I used to be able to see it kicking off from my balcony.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    I think we could do with some bad weather here for a few weeks, before da yuff get any ideas.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    Its desperation. Shagger needs a braying mob behind him to be able to bluster his way through. SKS keeps tearing him apart with brutal dispatch box cross-examinations and follow-up statements and pressure. Jacob Lounge-Lizard hopes that the mob will be able to roar Shagger into calling SKS the establishment or something.

    That's plausible, but Speaker Hoyle won't allow more than 50 MPs in the chamber regardless, so it ain't happening. Yet the government plow on, losing goodwill from its own backbenches for little discernible gain.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Its desperation. Shagger needs a braying mob behind him to be able to bluster his way through. SKS keeps tearing him apart with brutal dispatch box cross-examinations and follow-up statements and pressure. Jacob Lounge-Lizard hopes that the mob will be able to roar Shagger into calling SKS the establishment or something.

    That's plausible, but Speaker Hoyle won't allow more than 50 MPs in the chamber regardless, so it ain't happening. Yet the government plow on, losing goodwill from its own backbenches for little discernible gain.
    You think that's plausible?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    I understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    Politics is, unfortunately, 90% trappings and 10% substance.

    So, even if the substantive differences are small (but arguably important), they are vastly outweighed by the zeitgeist.

    BoZo is a diminished, untrustworthy and confused dud.
    Sturgeon is a reasonable, pleasant and competent leader.

    In the harsh world of politics, that is enough.
    The Tories were on 45% across the UK and the SNP 47% in Scotland last weekend, little difference
    That was prior to the YouGov fieldwork. Even English people think Scotland handled Covid19 better.

    ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    Respondents saying “England”:

    London 13%
    Rest of South 16%
    Midlands 16%
    North 14%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    Not very impressive, is it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    It must be tricky arguing for the Union from a historical angle, when the 19th century was the Scotland's most prosperous and successful era.

    'I know it's a bit crap in the 21st century, but just look at the 19th!'
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    Its desperation. Shagger needs a braying mob behind him to be able to bluster his way through. SKS keeps tearing him apart with brutal dispatch box cross-examinations and follow-up statements and pressure. Jacob Lounge-Lizard hopes that the mob will be able to roar Shagger into calling SKS the establishment or something.

    That's plausible, but Speaker Hoyle won't allow more than 50 MPs in the chamber regardless, so it ain't happening. Yet the government plow on, losing goodwill from its own backbenches for little discernible gain.
    You think that's plausible?
    Yes, it's a bit cynical, but Johnson of all people knows the importance of appearances in politics so a motive of wanting to arrange appearances to his advantage is certainly very plausible.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    edited June 2020

    How the enquiry will turn out depends on the terms of reference.. just go back to the Iraq enquiry.....

    That’s why I thought I’d get my draft in early.....

    Apologies for forgetting the other PHE authorities.

    Whatever slack one can cut the government in the early days - on testing etc. - it does seem odd to me that over 3 months later we still don’t have a good enough system set up at just the time we need it for the start of lockdown.

    My current view FWIW is that there was a lack of nimbleness in the government’s operation which meant that when the facts changed they were unable to move as smartly as they needed to. And I suspect that a lot of that has to do with the fact that most people in senior positions are, even if brilliant at their day jobs, really rubbish at crisis management. I know because I’ve seen this phenomenon up close.

    One other point: apportioning guilt should not really be the focus, not the main one. Understanding what went wrong and right and what to do better next time should be - but rarely is - or not to the extent needed. See Cygnus, for instance.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Two turds with Scottish roots. A badge of shame.
    Great game this. Two turds with Scottish roots.




    They look happy don't they? Sharing pussy grabbing tips perhaps.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    I think we could do with some bad weather here for a few weeks, before da yuff get any ideas.

    Not on friday, out to a garden party that day.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    I think even if the science says technically 1m is enough, if you tell people 3ft they will often end up much closer. If you tell people 6ft, even if people do on occasion get a bit closer, still exceed it.

    Wouldn't be surprised if behavioural eggheads influenced this decision.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    edited June 2020

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    50% sounds impressive, but it's a reduction from 3% at 1m, so the difference is perhaps not that big. It depends on how much that change would increase the overall transmission rate.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    We gave you the design for Cumbernauld you ungrateful swine!!!!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    I think even if the science says technically 1m is enough, if you tell people 3ft they will often end up much closer. If you tell people 6ft, even if people do on occasion get a bit closer, still exceed it.

    Wouldn't be surprised if behavioural eggheads influenced this decision.
    Tell people 1 metre and they'll be right next to each other. Tell them two and they know to keep at least 3 or 4 foot away.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    50% sounds impressive, but it's a reduction from 3% at 1m, so the difference is perhaps not that big. It depends on how much that change would increase the overall transmission rate.
    a power of 10, give or take.

    I'd take a simple message with ten fold reduction any day of the week.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Pulpstar said:

    I think we could do with some bad weather here for a few weeks, before da yuff get any ideas.

    Not on friday, out to a garden party that day.
    Will be a bit chilly!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    IIRC one, if not the main, of the reasons the Romans built the roads they did was to ensure their Legions could move swiftly to crush rebellions.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    I think even if the science says technically 1m is enough, if you tell people 3ft they will often end up much closer. If you tell people 6ft, even if people do on occasion get a bit closer, still exceed it.

    Wouldn't be surprised if behavioural eggheads influenced this decision.
    Tell people 1 metre and they'll be right next to each other. Tell them two and they know to keep at least 3 or 4 foot away.
    Walking on the footpath next to a busy main road, if people are coming the other direction then I'll typically go one side of the footpath, the others to the other side. Reality is we are probably no more than a metre apart doing that but it's about trying. To go two metres apart someone would need to walk on the road and I'm not doing that.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Cyclefree said:

    How the enquiry will turn out depends on the terms of reference.. just go back to the Iraq enquiry.....

    Apologies for forgetting the other PHE authorities.
    Apology accepted. Sorry for saying it was too long. I will now tackle a Victorian novel.

    For the record:

    Public Health Agency (Northern Ireland)
    Public Health Scotland (Scotland)
    Public Health Wales (Wales)
    Public Health England (England)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    Not at all, I think any arguments for the Union should be based on the future, but there is strong historical slant within the indy movement toward Scotland being seen as a colonial victim, in which case one would expect to see the ruins of its rennaissance glory and the rest to look like Scunthorpe.

    A casual look at anywhere here tells you the 19th century was Scotland's heyday, a time when enterprising Scots achieved unprecedented industrial and engineering success, travelled the world and colonised much of it, and adorned their towns and cities with grand churches, halls, parks, monuments and roads. Sadly (for you) they seemed to do so quite happily as part of the United Kingdom.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    Sandpit said:


    Quite a few Americans are completely infected with TDS. They genuinely think he's in the same category of evil as Hitler and Stalin.

    Von Papen would be a better comparison.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Pulpstar said:

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    I think even if the science says technically 1m is enough, if you tell people 3ft they will often end up much closer. If you tell people 6ft, even if people do on occasion get a bit closer, still exceed it.

    Wouldn't be surprised if behavioural eggheads influenced this decision.
    Tell people 1 metre and they'll be right next to each other. Tell them two and they know to keep at least 3 or 4 foot away.
    Walking on the footpath next to a busy main road, if people are coming the other direction then I'll typically go one side of the footpath, the others to the other side. Reality is we are probably no more than a metre apart doing that but it's about trying. To go two metres apart someone would need to walk on the road and I'm not doing that.
    I've Liked that as being a sensible course of action, but we always keep an eye out for a suitable doorway or other alcove.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    IIRC one, if not the main, of the reasons the Romans built the roads they did was to ensure their Legions could move swiftly to crush rebellions.
    Of course. That’s why Labour constructed the M6 right through the heart of Glasgow city centre: to crush the plebs.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    The French have been having riots in the suburbs for weeks or months, but they haven't really been reported here unless you know where to look.

    I'm sure we're in for a tough time when the government finally stops supporting zombie companies.
    That's because that happens in France every week....
    I think it's more because our media is much more focused on reporting American news than French.

    Also because France had a lockdown that made it difficult for journalists to cover events outside city centres, where most of the poor areas are.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    I understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    Politics is, unfortunately, 90% trappings and 10% substance.

    So, even if the substantive differences are small (but arguably important), they are vastly outweighed by the zeitgeist.

    BoZo is a diminished, untrustworthy and confused dud.
    Sturgeon is a reasonable, pleasant and competent leader.

    In the harsh world of politics, that is enough.
    The Tories were on 45% across the UK and the SNP 47% in Scotland last weekend, little difference
    That was prior to the YouGov fieldwork. Even English people think Scotland handled Covid19 better.

    ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    Respondents saying “England”:

    London 13%
    Rest of South 16%
    Midlands 16%
    North 14%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    Not very impressive, is it?
    So what, your point was about Boris and Tory popularity compared to Sturgeon and SNP popularity.

    As I said Tory UK voteshare little different to SNP Scottish voteshare
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    Gore won the popular vote across America in 2000.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    'I swear by God this holy oath, that I will render to Donald Trump, leader of the United States and People, Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, unconditional obedience, and that I am ready, as a brave soldier, to risk my life at any time for this oath.'
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    The airforce is strongly Republican, wouldn't say that so much about the army or navy.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/12/17/half-of-active-duty-service-members-are-unhappy-with-trump-new-military-times-poll-shows/

    Trump is net negative with service personnel.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    Gore won the popular vote across America in 2000.
    Which proves the point, the US military is more Republican than the average American voter
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    Not at all, I think any arguments for the Union should be based on the future, but there is strong historical slant within the indy movement toward Scotland being seen as a colonial victim, in which case one would expect to see the ruins of its rennaissance glory and the rest to look like Scunthorpe.

    A casual look at anywhere here tells you the 19th century was Scotland's heyday, a time when enterprising Scots achieved unprecedented industrial and engineering success, travelled the world and colonised much of it, and adorned their towns and cities with grand churches, halls, parks, monuments and roads. Sadly (for you) they seemed to do so quite happily as part of the United Kingdom.
    19th century Scottish engineers, industrialists, colonial servants, architects, sculptors and landscape gardeners have, understandably, been removed from the Electoral Rolls. Sadly (for you).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    The military will be strongly onside for enforcement.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Mango said:

    Sandpit said:


    Quite a few Americans are completely infected with TDS. They genuinely think he's in the same category of evil as Hitler and Stalin.

    Von Papen would be a better comparison.
    Right. So is there a would-be Hitler in the wings, hoping to take advantage of the cover afforded by Trump? That's the question.

    the US can survive Trump.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    Yeah, that's not going to happen. Latest news is that people breaking curfew in Providence, RI, are being shot without warning, the police are being shot in St Louis, MO, and police have been injured by someone driving into them in Buffalo, NY.

    This isn't ending with the police/military joining forces with the protestors. Sorry.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    I see yesterday's Newsnight reported that such is the level of discontent within Tory MPs about the quarantine plan that it is likely immediately to be significantly watered down and may be abandoned fairly quickly.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    All sorts of things going on in the US, not all of them looting.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    Hodges struggles to understand Britain, he's certainly not understanding the US military.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    I think even if the science says technically 1m is enough, if you tell people 3ft they will often end up much closer. If you tell people 6ft, even if people do on occasion get a bit closer, still exceed it.

    Wouldn't be surprised if behavioural eggheads influenced this decision.
    I find it depressing that science education is so poor people are arguing the toss 1m or 2m as if there is actually an "answer". I think this largely stems from the scientifically illiterate media looking for a story.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    Gore won the popular vote across America in 2000.
    Which proves the point, the US military is more Republican than the average American voter
    That's a huge walk back from "strongly" Republican.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    Hodges struggles to understand Britain, he's certainly not understanding the US
    military.
    Then again...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Airborne_Division#Civil_rights
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    Major study supports 2m rule. 50% reduction in chance of infection.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/two-metre-rule-halves-chances-catching-coronavirus-first-major/

    Blimey. Stop the clocks. The Government may have got something right.

    50% sounds impressive, but it's a reduction from 3% at 1m, so the difference is perhaps not that big. It depends on how much that change would increase the overall transmission rate.
    Basically, if you've got the community infection rate low enough to start with, you can get away with relaxing it to 1m.
    But you've got to get it down to start with, and we're a bit behind on where we'd like to be for that.

    Kind of a trade-off: would we prefer, say, two weeks extra lockdown on the old rules and then relaxation to one metre after another week or so, or to relax to the current conditions but have to stick to two metres for the foreseeable future?

    Question's moot, anyway: the Government have gone for option 2.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    Hodges struggles to understand Britain, he's certainly not understanding the US military.
    The US military started off by fighting the British jackboot. :)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    It must be tricky arguing for the Union from a historical angle, when the 19th century was the Scotland's most prosperous and successful era.

    'I know it's a bit crap in the 21st century, but just look at the 19th!'
    I'm not sure Stuart's nostalgia for potato patches in the west Highlands and being ordered about by a clan leader is the best imagery of an independent Scotland.

    :wink:
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    So, would anyone say that Trump has, indeed, Made America Great Again?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    The airforce is strongly Republican, wouldn't say that so much about the army or navy.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/12/17/half-of-active-duty-service-members-are-unhappy-with-trump-new-military-times-poll-shows/

    Trump is net negative with service personnel.
    Only 49% had an unfavourable view of Trump, well below the US average while 52% of US troops had an unfavourable view of Obama in 2017, well above the US average
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    The airforce is strongly Republican, wouldn't say that so much about the army or navy.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/12/17/half-of-active-duty-service-members-are-unhappy-with-trump-new-military-times-poll-shows/

    Trump is net negative with service personnel.
    What was that US Navy ship which had coronavirus and Trump's man told them to get on with it? Or something like that.
    Didn't sound as though they were particularly pro-Trump. Indeed I seem to recall suggestions that it was a good thing the were on the West Coast, a long way from Washington.

    And now I'll say good bye for a while. Off to FaceTime Eldest Granddaughter, whose birthday it is. On this day 32 years ago we became grandparents. Just hope she and her boyfriend are out of bed when we ring!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    We gave you the design for Cumbernauld you ungrateful swine!!!!
    Ah yes, Geoffrey Copcutt, the Yorkshire brutalist educated in Essex. Thanks for that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    The French have been having riots in the suburbs for weeks or months, but they haven't really been reported here unless you know where to look.

    I'm sure we're in for a tough time when the government finally stops supporting zombie companies.
    That's because that happens in France every week....
    I think it's more because our media is much more focused on reporting American news than French.

    Also because France had a lockdown that made it difficult for journalists to cover events outside city centres, where most of the poor areas are.
    Thankfully we don't have the Banlieue system in the UK - in France the ghettoisation is extreme.

    The riots there are nice and self contained.... Journalists go to them as if they are going to a foreign country.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    Hodges struggles to understand Britain, he's certainly not understanding the US
    military.
    Then again...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Airborne_Division#Civil_rights
    When they followed the President's orders.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    Hodges struggles to understand Britain, he's certainly not understanding the US
    military.
    Then again...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Airborne_Division#Civil_rights
    I'm not sure why that's "then again" that was them doing their duty and following their Commander in Chief's instructions.

    If Trump ordered the military to shoot unarmed peaceful protestors and the media then I can imagine elements of the military refusing that but that's not what is going to be asked of them. If they're asked to stop looters they're not going to prevaricate over that.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    IIRC one, if not the main, of the reasons the Romans built the roads they did was to ensure their Legions could move swiftly to crush rebellions.
    Of course. That’s why Labour constructed the M6 right through the heart of Glasgow city centre: to crush the plebs.
    M8!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    It must be tricky arguing for the Union from a historical angle, when the 19th century was the Scotland's most prosperous and successful era.

    'I know it's a bit crap in the 21st century, but just look at the 19th!'
    I'm not sure Stuart's nostalgia for potato patches in the west Highlands and being ordered about by a clan leader is the best imagery of an independent Scotland.

    :wink:
    So, for you the word Gàidhealtachd conjures up potato patches and people being ordered about.

    That says more about you and your cause than it does about me and my cause.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    Hodges struggles to understand Britain, he's certainly not understanding the US
    military.
    Then again...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Airborne_Division#Civil_rights
    I'm not sure why that's "then again" that was them doing their duty and following their Commander in Chief's instructions.

    If Trump ordered the military to shoot unarmed peaceful protestors and the media then I can imagine elements of the military refusing that but that's not what is going to be asked of them. If they're asked to stop looters they're not going to prevaricate over that.
    Yep the military will follow the commander in chief whether that's Trump, Obama, Bush, Biden or Clinton.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Has there been a coherent, defensible explanation for this or is it just mumble, mumble, cos reasons?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1267498210609844224?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    So elements of the police and military are going to protect looters ?

    Does not sound likely.
    Hodges struggles to understand Britain, he's certainly not understanding the US
    military.
    Then again...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Airborne_Division#Civil_rights
    I'm not sure why that's "then again" that was them doing their duty and following their Commander in Chief's instructions.

    If Trump ordered the military to shoot unarmed peaceful protestors and the media then I can imagine elements of the military refusing that but that's not what is going to be asked of them. If they're asked to stop looters they're not going to prevaricate over that.
    I was suggesting that the history of using the Army in the US in civil matters has a better history than one might suspect - the National Guard on the other hand....

    https://www.masslive.com/boston/2020/06/looting-violence-in-boston-led-to-53-people-arrested-police-officers-and-bystanders-injured-during-bedlam-that-caused-untold-economic-damages-mayor-marty-walsh-says.html

    Yes, some clowns attacked a monument. To the 54th Mass. Infantry....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Pulpstar said:

    The military will be strongly onside for enforcement.

    It only takes a few troops refusing orders to destroy unit cohesion. I've seen it happen...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    Vote BetterTogether2 for General Wade’s roads and faded town centres!

    You might want to come up with a more catchy slogan.
    IIRC one, if not the main, of the reasons the Romans built the roads they did was to ensure their Legions could move swiftly to crush rebellions.
    Of course. That’s why Labour constructed the M6 right through the heart of Glasgow city centre: to crush the plebs.
    M8!
    He's no friend of yours....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    If cops cannot control the situation and are being shot by rioters then the case for the National Guard or the military being used to restore order gets stronger
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
    This’ll be the “best of both worlds” and being an “equal partner” within the Union promised by the Conservative/Labour/LibDem/UKIP/BNP axis in 2014.

    Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen!
    General Wade's network of roads and bridges may have been designed to 'bring victory' but actually it brought unprecedented trade and economic activity to the remotest parts of Scotland.

    It must be tricky arguing for Scottish separation from a historical angle, when the 19th century was Scotland's most prosperous and successful era, as the faded grandeur of hundreds of towns (in common with hundreds in England) shows.
    It must be tricky arguing for the Union from a historical angle, when the 19th century was the Scotland's most prosperous and successful era.

    'I know it's a bit crap in the 21st century, but just look at the 19th!'
    I'm not sure Stuart's nostalgia for potato patches in the west Highlands and being ordered about by a clan leader is the best imagery of an independent Scotland.

    :wink:
    So, for you the word Gàidhealtachd conjures up potato patches and people being ordered about.

    That says more about you and your cause than it does about me and my cause.
    To me the word is meaningless and irrelevant to the future.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The military is strongly Republican however, as long as Trump is President and Commander in Chief they will remain loyal to him.

    Don't forget it was absentee military ballots that won Bush Florida in 2000
    Gore won the popular vote across America in 2000.
    Which proves the point, the US military is more Republican than the average American voter
    That's a huge walk back from "strongly" Republican.
    They are strongly Republican, Trump has a near 60% unfavourable rating with US voters in some polls compared to just 49% with the US military.

    52% of the US military have an unfavourable view of the twice elected Obama
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    Has there been a coherent, defensible explanation for this or is it just mumble, mumble, cos reasons?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1267498210609844224?s=20

    It is due to extra reported deaths attributed to covid in care homes due to pillar 2 testing.

    https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1267593812580368384?s=19
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Has there been a coherent, defensible explanation for this or is it just mumble, mumble, cos reasons?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1267498210609844224?s=20

    Yes.

    Slide 6 of the presentation yesterday

    On 1 June the cumulative totals for deaths have been revised to include an additional 445 deaths in England. Please note the historical data for the daily totals before 1 June has not been updated. These additional deaths are from the period 24 April – 31 May. Figures still relate to those who have died, in any setting, having had a positive lab confirmed test.

    I, for one, look forwards to your coherent and reasonable reply.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    edited June 2020

    Has there been a coherent, defensible explanation for this or is it just mumble, mumble, cos reasons?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1267498210609844224?s=20

    Historical data was added to the previous numbers.

    The announced number was the new number of deaths.

    In the NHS England data you can see the result of such revisions thus (each line is a revision) -

    image
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Malmesbury, cheers for that info.

    Consistently troubling the mainstream journalists have a weaker grasp of science, maths, and politics than PBers...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    HYUFD said:

    If cops cannot control the situation and are being shot by rioters then the case for the National Guard or the military being used to restore order gets stronger
    Playing right into Trump's hands. It's like watching a slow car crash, which ends in reelection.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Mr. Malmesbury, cheers for that info.

    Consistently troubling the mainstream journalists have a weaker grasp of science, maths, and politics than PBers...

    or the basics of finding where the information is.

    Better to rush to twitter and pretend there's a scandal.

    Genuinely sick of most of them, and the mouth breathers that incoherently and indefensibly retweet every single brain fart.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    The ONS appear to have removed the v 5-year average analysis from their weekly release, which is frustrating because that was really interesting.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Again not rocket science, info all there, too confusing for media. Jon Craig was pushing some bollocks yesterday about this, saying government have questions to answer over this revision, implying it was due to government incompetent with adding up.
This discussion has been closed.