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  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Interesting to see a thread header about coronavirus and everyone talking about something else.

    For the past three months it's usually been the other way round.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    edited June 2020
    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Governors already saying they won't agree to Trump sending military personnel...setting up the dividing line.

    Trump is Head of the US military as President, governors are only in charge of state police and guards
    Isn't there a law regarding the use of military domestically in the US?
    Posse Comitatus Act. @TSE predicted we'd become experts.
    Good call from someone who can't spot a decent goalkeeper.
    Posse Comitatus does not overrule the President's powers under the Insurrection Act of 1807 to quell civil disorder
    Actually it quite specifically does: it was passed at the end of Reconstruction specifically to stop the federal government from enforcing the Reconstruction laws in the Southern states, allowing them to bring in the Jim Crow era.

    Trump can only impose federal troops on the states if a state government has been rendered unable to act by insurrection.
    Posse Comitatus only limits the power of the President to enforce laws using the military without Congressional approval.

    It does not stop the President's powers under the Insurrection and Enforcement Acts to deploy the military to quell civil disorder.

    Indeed the military were deployed during the 1992 LA riots under the Insurrection Act
    Did the state governor have to approve it?
    Explicit consent of the state governor is not required if the state government is clearly unable to maintain civil order
    I dare say Trump might try to argue that, but I doubt the courts would agree.
    I would not be so sure, the Supreme Court now has a narrow conservative majority after Justice Kavanaugh was appointed under Trump to replace Justice Kennedy
    I don't think either Gorsuch or Roberts would be particularly biddable. Gorsuch, in particular, has been very sceptical of Federal government overreach.
    And Roberts on more than one occasion has broken with the conservative judges when he thinks the ruling is going to be wrong in the sense that it clearly would thwart the wishes of the electorate as expressed through whom they've elected to do what.
    Roberts has impressed me enormously since becoming Chief Justice. He never rules on more than he has to. And he has no hesitation in standing up for an independent judiciary.

    By contrast, I have very little time for Kavanaugh.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Chris said:

    Interesting to see a thread header about coronavirus and everyone talking about something else.

    For the past three months it's usually been the other way round.

    Yesterday I switched on r5 at around 8am to hear a very interesting discussion about racism, institutional and otherwise, and it took me some time to realise that it had been ages since a news radio item hadn't been about Coronavirus.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited June 2020
    Foxy said:

    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
    Agree, but when people like Halfon start complaining loudly, they just take some notice.

    I wonder, is he a natural Roundhead?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Shortly to be renamed SAGE UK, then The Independent Group for SAGE.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    If it kicks off in London, Boris should leave it to Sadiq.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Today looks to be the last of the hot weather for a while, with rain forecast for tomorrow.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Today looks to be the last of the hot weather for a while, with rain forecast for tomorrow.
    Let's hope we have plenty of rain over the next few weeks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Fake SAGE

    The new title for Dominic Cummings?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    TOPPING said:

    Chris said:

    Interesting to see a thread header about coronavirus and everyone talking about something else.

    For the past three months it's usually been the other way round.

    Yesterday I switched on r5 at around 8am to hear a very interesting discussion about racism, institutional and otherwise, and it took me some time to realise that it had been ages since a news radio item hadn't been about Coronavirus.
    In fact half the news items on the main news page of the BBC website this morning were non-virus-related.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Jacob Rees Mogg couldn’t be that crazy, surely?

    *Thinks*

    Sorry, your venerable cheerful majesty, that doesn’t work.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    HYUFD said:

    Did Trump just declare Martial Law?

    He just said he would deploy the US military on the streets to restore order if needed
    This is your wet dream isn’t it?
    It’s a test run for HY’s Scotland plan?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Today looks to be the last of the hot weather for a while, with rain forecast for tomorrow.
    Let's hope we have plenty of rain over the next few weeks.
    In the south of England where I am it looks like there will be a fair bit, particularly next week. In northern Scotland it is raining at the moment.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Foxy said:

    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.

    The frame of an enquiry should be more like a transport accident investigation, looking closely at everything that led up to the crisis, and especially noting the opportunities where a different decision would have materially changed the outcome.

    It should include everyone who was involved in both the key decisions and the day-to-day management, from the Prime Minister to the most junior advisor, reflecting back on how things were managed and why decisions were made the way they were, and where with the benefit of hindsight mistakes were made.

    If it's set up with the idea that people are going to be 'blamed', then it can only have negative effects on a future incident, with everyone involved way more interested in covering their own arses than actually addressing the problem. There's already a reasonable amount of evidence that this was to some extent an issue with this pandemic, especially within the senior ranks of the civil service and the quangos.

    That's not what the politicians nor the media want from an enquiry, but the focus needs to be on learning from the crisis - doubly so when there could be a second wave coming down the line.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    ydoethur said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg couldn’t be that crazy, surely?

    *Thinks*

    Sorry, your venerable cheerful majesty, that doesn’t work.
    If I'd put 'Even' before the word 'Jacob' would that have worked better?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.

    The frame of an enquiry should be more like a transport accident investigation, looking closely at everything that led up to the crisis, and especially noting the opportunities where a different decision would have materially changed the outcome.

    It should include everyone who was involved in both the key decisions and the day-to-day management, from the Prime Minister to the most junior advisor, reflecting back on how things were managed and why decisions were made the way they were, and where with the benefit of hindsight mistakes were made.

    If it's set up with the idea that people are going to be 'blamed', then it can only have negative effects on a future incident, with everyone involved way more interested in covering their own arses than actually addressing the problem. There's already a reasonable amount of evidence that this was to some extent an issue with this pandemic, especially within the senior ranks of the civil service and the quangos.

    That's not what the politicians nor the media want from an enquiry, but the focus needs to be on learning from the crisis - doubly so when there could be a second wave coming down the line.
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Scott_xP said:
    This is just him being deliberately antagonistic because he can.

    The govt will win all their votes either way.

    It is just the govt showing how much contempt they have even for their own MPs. They think it makes them look strong, but the observant know it is a sign of weakness.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Today looks to be the last of the hot weather for a while, with rain forecast for tomorrow.
    Let's hope we have plenty of rain over the next few weeks.
    About a 40% chance, according the BBC in N Essex on Thursday. 5-2 against. Hmm.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Alistair said:

    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.

    https://twitter.com/mrbenwexler/status/1267593286463582208
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Only a matter of time before we have civil unrest. A lack of money, nothing to do, hot weather will all contribute. It will just take a trigger point similar to the Duggan incident in Tottenham.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.

    The frame of an enquiry should be more like a transport accident investigation, looking closely at everything that led up to the crisis, and especially noting the opportunities where a different decision would have materially changed the outcome.

    It should include everyone who was involved in both the key decisions and the day-to-day management, from the Prime Minister to the most junior advisor, reflecting back on how things were managed and why decisions were made the way they were, and where with the benefit of hindsight mistakes were made.

    If it's set up with the idea that people are going to be 'blamed', then it can only have negative effects on a future incident, with everyone involved way more interested in covering their own arses than actually addressing the problem. There's already a reasonable amount of evidence that this was to some extent an issue with this pandemic, especially within the senior ranks of the civil service and the quangos.

    That's not what the politicians nor the media want from an enquiry, but the focus needs to be on learning from the crisis - doubly so when there could be a second wave coming down the line.
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
    Indeed, which is why it's even more important to conduct the enquiry in this way.

    It's not like the Iraq war, for example, which was an explicit government policy, it's dealing with a crisis that hit the country domestically, so the focus needs to be much less political and more looking towards managing the next similar crisis.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.

    The frame of an enquiry should be more like a transport accident investigation, looking closely at everything that led up to the crisis, and especially noting the opportunities where a different decision would have materially changed the outcome.

    It should include everyone who was involved in both the key decisions and the day-to-day management, from the Prime Minister to the most junior advisor, reflecting back on how things were managed and why decisions were made the way they were, and where with the benefit of hindsight mistakes were made.

    If it's set up with the idea that people are going to be 'blamed', then it can only have negative effects on a future incident, with everyone involved way more interested in covering their own arses than actually addressing the problem. There's already a reasonable amount of evidence that this was to some extent an issue with this pandemic, especially within the senior ranks of the civil service and the quangos.

    That's not what the politicians nor the media want from an enquiry, but the focus needs to be on learning from the crisis - doubly so when there could be a second wave coming down the line.
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
    Indeed, which is why it's even more important to conduct the enquiry in this way.

    It's not like the Iraq war, for example, which was an explicit government policy, it's dealing with a crisis that hit the country domestically, so the focus needs to be much less political and more looking towards managing the next similar crisis.
    Agreed; it's been a major failing in the NHS, and medicine is somewhere where things can go wrong without anyone being much, if at all, 'at fault'.

    It stems, I suggest, from our confrontational legal system. At least in part.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited June 2020
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.

    The frame of an enquiry should be more like a transport accident investigation, looking closely at everything that led up to the crisis, and especially noting the opportunities where a different decision would have materially changed the outcome.

    It should include everyone who was involved in both the key decisions and the day-to-day management, from the Prime Minister to the most junior advisor, reflecting back on how things were managed and why decisions were made the way they were, and where with the benefit of hindsight mistakes were made.

    If it's set up with the idea that people are going to be 'blamed', then it can only have negative effects on a future incident, with everyone involved way more interested in covering their own arses than actually addressing the problem. There's already a reasonable amount of evidence that this was to some extent an issue with this pandemic, especially within the senior ranks of the civil service and the quangos.

    That's not what the politicians nor the media want from an enquiry, but the focus needs to be on learning from the crisis - doubly so when there could be a second wave coming down the line.
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
    Indeed, which is why it's even more important to conduct the enquiry in this way.

    It's not like the Iraq war, for example, which was an explicit government policy, it's dealing with a crisis that hit the country domestically, so the focus needs to be much less political and more looking towards managing the next similar crisis.
    Or perhaps the next dissimilar crisis.
    One handicap this time round was the way we stuck rigidly to the influenza plan; the next zero day virus will likely be different again.

    Broad capabilities of public health infrastructure, and biomedical production capacity to go alongside our existing strong research capability are a couple of items on the list.

    A couple of ministers in government who have some kind of clue about this stuff might also be a plus....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Today looks to be the last of the hot weather for a while, with rain forecast for tomorrow.
    Let's hope we have plenty of rain over the next few weeks.
    About a 40% chance, according the BBC in N Essex on Thursday. 5-2 against. Hmm.

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Today looks to be the last of the hot weather for a while, with rain forecast for tomorrow.
    Let's hope we have plenty of rain over the next few weeks.
    About a 40% chance, according the BBC in N Essex on Thursday. 5-2 against. Hmm.
    Here it looks like some light rain tomorrow afternoon and possibly again Thursday afternoon, and then nothing until possibly a repeat performance in the middle of next week. The weather from the Med is being replaced by a return to a reasonably decent British early summer.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2020
    ...
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Governors already saying they won't agree to Trump sending military personnel...setting up the dividing line.

    Trump is Head of the US military as President, governors are only in charge of state police and guards
    Isn't there a law regarding the use of military domestically in the US?
    Posse Comitatus Act. @TSE predicted we'd become experts.
    Good call from someone who can't spot a decent goalkeeper.
    Posse Comitatus does not overrule the President's powers under the Insurrection Act of 1807 to quell civil disorder
    Actually it quite specifically does: it was passed at the end of Reconstruction specifically to stop the federal government from enforcing the Reconstruction laws in the Southern states, allowing them to bring in the Jim Crow era.

    Trump can only impose federal troops on the states if a state government has been rendered unable to act by insurrection.
    Posse Comitatus only limits the power of the President to enforce laws using the military without Congressional approval.

    It does not stop the President's powers under the Insurrection and Enforcement Acts to deploy the military to quell civil disorder.

    Indeed the military were deployed during the 1992 LA riots under the Insurrection Act
    Did the state governor have to approve it?
    Explicit consent of the state governor is not required if the state government is clearly unable to maintain civil order
    I dare say Trump might try to argue that, but I doubt the courts would agree.
    I would not be so sure, the Supreme Court now has a narrow conservative majority after Justice Kavanaugh was appointed under Trump to replace Justice Kennedy
    I don't think either Gorsuch or Roberts would be particularly biddable. Gorsuch, in particular, has been very sceptical of Federal government overreach.
    And Roberts on more than one occasion has broken with the conservative judges when he thinks the ruling is going to be wrong in the sense that it clearly would thwart the wishes of the electorate as expressed through whom they've elected to do what.
    Roberts has impressed me enormously since becoming Chief Justice. He never rules on more than he has to. And he has no hesitation in standing up for an independent judiciary.

    By contrast, I have very little time for Kavanaugh.
    Roberts has presided over and sided with some of the absolute worst decisions of all time.

    Shelby County vs Holder is the equivalent of lighting the constitution on fire then shitting on the ashes.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.

    https://twitter.com/mrbenwexler/status/1267593286463582208
    That's always a hit with the luvvies, anybody remember Godwin's Law?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Did Trump just declare Martial Law?

    He just said he would deploy the US military on the streets to restore order if needed
    This is your wet dream isn’t it?
    It’s a test run for HY’s Scotland plan?
    Yepp, HY wants to send the gunboats up the Forth at dawn. Lovely chap
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Plan for preventing/dealing with them, I hope you mean ? :smile:
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Scott_xP said:
    This is just him being deliberately antagonistic because he can.

    The govt will win all their votes either way.

    It is just the govt showing how much contempt they have even for their own MPs. They think it makes them look strong, but the observant know it is a sign of weakness.
    For the observant... read....those who do not agree with them.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited June 2020
    coach said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.

    https://twitter.com/mrbenwexler/status/1267593286463582208
    That's always a hit with the luvvies, anybody remember Godwin's Law?
    It's difficult to forget it when numbskulls trot it out at any reference that comes within two decades of WW2.

  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Rosie Duffield won't want to report to Westminster she's enjoying herself too much with married men on Whitstable beach
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    coach said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.

    https://twitter.com/mrbenwexler/status/1267593286463582208
    That's always a hit with the luvvies, anybody remember Godwin's Law?
    Quite a few Americans are completely infected with TDS. They genuinely think he's in the same category of evil as Hitler and Stalin.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    coach said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.

    https://twitter.com/mrbenwexler/status/1267593286463582208
    That's always a hit with the luvvies, anybody remember Godwin's Law?
    Lofl!

    https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/1267682219314655233?s=20
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Did Trump just declare Martial Law?

    He just said he would deploy the US military on the streets to restore order if needed
    This is your wet dream isn’t it?
    It is just Trump following what Madrid and Beijing have been doing recently
    Hard to be as bad as Madrid for sure
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Shortly to be renamed SAGE UK, then The Independent Group for SAGE.
    Splitters
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.

    The frame of an enquiry should be more like a transport accident investigation, looking closely at everything that led up to the crisis, and especially noting the opportunities where a different decision would have materially changed the outcome.

    It should include everyone who was involved in both the key decisions and the day-to-day management, from the Prime Minister to the most junior advisor, reflecting back on how things were managed and why decisions were made the way they were, and where with the benefit of hindsight mistakes were made.

    If it's set up with the idea that people are going to be 'blamed', then it can only have negative effects on a future incident, with everyone involved way more interested in covering their own arses than actually addressing the problem. There's already a reasonable amount of evidence that this was to some extent an issue with this pandemic, especially within the senior ranks of the civil service and the quangos.

    That's not what the politicians nor the media want from an enquiry, but the focus needs to be on learning from the crisis - doubly so when there could be a second wave coming down the line.
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
    As in Albert and the Lion, the eventual finding, no matter how sensible, is not going to change hearts and minds.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    coach said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.

    https://twitter.com/mrbenwexler/status/1267593286463582208
    That's always a hit with the luvvies, anybody remember Godwin's Law?
    Godwin's law says that eventually Nazis will be mentioned. It doesn't state anything more than that.

    Godwin has specifically said its fine to mention Nazis if the actions you are comparing to a pretty Nazi ish.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Oh, beaten I see.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Alistair said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Governors already saying they won't agree to Trump sending military personnel...setting up the dividing line.

    Trump is Head of the US military as President, governors are only in charge of state police and guards
    Isn't there a law regarding the use of military domestically in the US?
    Posse Comitatus Act. @TSE predicted we'd become experts.
    Good call from someone who can't spot a decent goalkeeper.
    Posse Comitatus does not overrule the President's powers under the Insurrection Act of 1807 to quell civil disorder
    Actually it quite specifically does: it was passed at the end of Reconstruction specifically to stop the federal government from enforcing the Reconstruction laws in the Southern states, allowing them to bring in the Jim Crow era.

    Trump can only impose federal troops on the states if a state government has been rendered unable to act by insurrection.
    Posse Comitatus only limits the power of the President to enforce laws using the military without Congressional approval.

    It does not stop the President's powers under the Insurrection and Enforcement Acts to deploy the military to quell civil disorder.

    Indeed the military were deployed during the 1992 LA riots under the Insurrection Act
    Did the state governor have to approve it?
    Explicit consent of the state governor is not required if the state government is clearly unable to maintain civil order
    I dare say Trump might try to argue that, but I doubt the courts would agree.
    I would not be so sure, the Supreme Court now has a narrow conservative majority after Justice Kavanaugh was appointed under Trump to replace Justice Kennedy
    I don't think either Gorsuch or Roberts would be particularly biddable. Gorsuch, in particular, has been very sceptical of Federal government overreach.
    And Roberts on more than one occasion has broken with the conservative judges when he thinks the ruling is going to be wrong in the sense that it clearly would thwart the wishes of the electorate as expressed through whom they've elected to do what.
    Roberts has impressed me enormously since becoming Chief Justice. He never rules on more than he has to. And he has no hesitation in standing up for an independent judiciary.

    By contrast, I have very little time for Kavanaugh.
    Roberts has presided over and sided with some of the absolute worst decisions of all time.

    Shelby County vs Holder is the equivalent of lighting the constitution on fire then shitting on the ashes.
    Indeed. But he is the least worst of the conservative judges.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Foxy said:

    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
    Agree, but when people like Halfon start complaining loudly, they just take some notice.

    I wonder, is he a natural Roundhead?
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    No, I think that by and large these have been peaceful demonstrators, righteously angry at yet another example of police brutality. FFS, this was an attempted arrest for passing a suspected counterfeit $20.

    Of course there are opportunists who exploit the demos as cover for looting, and political agitation, but that is more newsworthy for televised visuals.

    People have a need, and a Constitutional right, for public assembly, to raise their grievances.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    Alistair said:

    coach said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    So I see Trump teargassed a church for a photo op.

    Normal. Completely normal.

    https://twitter.com/mrbenwexler/status/1267593286463582208
    That's always a hit with the luvvies, anybody remember Godwin's Law?
    Godwin's law says that eventually Nazis will be mentioned. It doesn't state anything more than that.

    Godwin has specifically said its fine to mention Nazis if the actions you are comparing to a pretty Nazi ish.
    From wiki

    Godwin's law is an Internet adage asserting that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"

    Its inevitable that Trump will be compared to Hitler, all he has to do now is invade a few countries and start gassing millions to death, which is only a matter of time as you know
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.

    The last thing JRM wants is the idea that parliament could be modernized to gain momentum, he wants to return to the confrontational bear pit that they think the supreme leader propers in. For goodness sake they will be demanding enough
    Room to seat everyone next and modernizing the procedures to make the place fit for the 21st centuary rather than the 18th
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Sobering to think that Donald Trump is so admired by so many in the UK government. Where he leads, they will follow.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Governors already saying they won't agree to Trump sending military personnel...setting up the dividing line.

    Trump is Head of the US military as President, governors are only in charge of state police and guards
    Isn't there a law regarding the use of military domestically in the US?
    Posse Comitatus Act. @TSE predicted we'd become experts.
    Good call from someone who can't spot a decent goalkeeper.
    Posse Comitatus does not overrule the President's powers under the Insurrection Act of 1807 to quell civil disorder
    Actually it quite specifically does: it was passed at the end of Reconstruction specifically to stop the federal government from enforcing the Reconstruction laws in the Southern states, allowing them to bring in the Jim Crow era.

    Trump can only impose federal troops on the states if a state government has been rendered unable to act by insurrection.
    Posse Comitatus only limits the power of the President to enforce laws using the military without Congressional approval.

    It does not stop the President's powers under the Insurrection and Enforcement Acts to deploy the military to quell civil disorder.

    Indeed the military were deployed during the 1992 LA riots under the Insurrection Act
    Did the state governor have to approve it?
    Explicit consent of the state governor is not required if the state government is clearly unable to maintain civil order
    I dare say Trump might try to argue that, but I doubt the courts would agree.
    I would not be so sure, the Supreme Court now has a narrow conservative majority after Justice Kavanaugh was appointed under Trump to replace Justice Kennedy
    I don't think either Gorsuch or Roberts would be particularly biddable. Gorsuch, in particular, has been very sceptical of Federal government overreach.
    And Roberts on more than one occasion has broken with the conservative judges when he thinks the ruling is going to be wrong in the sense that it clearly would thwart the wishes of the electorate as expressed through whom they've elected to do what.
    Roberts has impressed me enormously since becoming Chief Justice. He never rules on more than he has to. And he has no hesitation in standing up for an independent judiciary.

    By contrast, I have very little time for Kavanaugh.
    Roberts has presided over and sided with some of the absolute worst decisions of all time.

    Shelby County vs Holder is the equivalent of lighting the constitution on fire then shitting on the ashes.
    Indeed. But he is the least worst of the conservative judges.
    I find his staggering hypocrisy totally galling.

    I found it even worse than Scalia's "strict originalism except when it conflicts with my beliefs" hypocrisy.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    Of course its not relevant.. noone lives in scitland.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.

    Its the govt showing that they can and that MPs are underlings who should do as they are told. The sort of thing that happens when we elect a government with no respect of the rule of law or democracy. Understanding it is easy.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    Both faced the same key challenge. Nicola Sturgeon fathomed that principles weren’t worth anything unless they cost you something. Boris Johnson did not. And he even had her example to follow.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
    Agree, but when people like Halfon start complaining loudly, they just take some notice.

    I wonder, is he a natural Roundhead?
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    No, I think that by and large these have been peaceful demonstrators, righteously angry at yet another example of police brutality. FFS, this was an attempted arrest for passing a suspected counterfeit $20.

    Of course there are opportunists who exploit the demos as cover for looting, and political agitation, but that is more newsworthy for televised visuals.

    People have a need, and a Constitutional right, for public assembly, to raise their grievances.
    It is not like the issue has never been raised before in peaceful protests, or via incremental change, or the ballot box (as well as sporadic violent protests) for a couple of hundred years. If those who disapprove of the protests could just point out exactly how the police killings, brutality and overreactions can be stopped then Im sure they would give it a go.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.

    Presumably they are up to something. Question is what? Barracking at PMQs? Is there a debate they want to avoid by making divisions take forever? Are they banking on differential return from regional parties?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    I'm not sure government planning is required. They usually kick off spontaneously. Plus, they don't need them to get re-elec....

    Oh, I see.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    Yeah, because military shooting protestors never inflames a situation, does it?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    Both faced the same key challenge. Nicola Sturgeon fathomed that principles weren’t worth anything unless they cost you something. Boris Johnson did not. And he even had her example to follow.
    Oh, that's right. She cost me my 8/1 bet that there would be an IndyRef in 2020.

    Boo that woman
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    .

    .
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
    Indeed, which is why it's even more important to conduct the enquiry in this way.

    It's not like the Iraq war, for example, which was an explicit government policy, it's dealing with a crisis that hit the country domestically, so the focus needs to be much less political and more looking towards managing the next similar crisis.
    Or perhaps the next dissimilar crisis.
    One handicap this time round was the way we stuck rigidly to the influenza plan; the next zero day virus will likely be different again.

    Broad capabilities of public health infrastructure, and biomedical production capacity to go alongside our existing strong research capability are a couple of items on the list.

    A couple of ministers in government who have some kind of clue about this stuff might also be a plus....
    Yes, looking from afar it appears the UK govt took too long to adapt the existing pandemic plan to the specifics of this disease.

    The obvious failings to me are:

    1. Medical equipment shortages. The planning didn't cover a collapse of international supply chains for low-level equipment such as PPE, so we need to ensure they can be supplied domestically in a future crisis, with enough raw materials stored and manufacturers retained. High-tech medical equipment worked well, with engineering companies such as the F1 teams quickly prototyping mass-producible ventilators. We need to look at other equipment types that might be needed for a future pandemic, and secure design and manufacturing capability for these ahead of time.

    2. Testing. Took way too long to ramp up testing volumes, on the face of it due to a centralised approach by PHE rather than using private and university resources. Required the Health Secretary's April 100k target to wake everyone up, this should have been done in March.

    3. Quarantining of people. Issue with this specific disease of infectious yet asymptomatic carriers. Other countries have commandeered hotels for positively-tested people who aren't sick, often on a non-voluntary basis. Huge problems with community transmissions, especially within households, care homes and HMOs. Quarantine of UK arrivals should have been done earlier and continue for the summer, over objections of holiday industry and press, with only limited exceptions for business travel that involve lots of testing. Such quarantine needs to be at dedicated facilities and charged back to the individual, not done at home.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Good morning, everyone.

    It's almost as if a separate, seemingly partisan, non-government group using almost exactly the same name as the official scientific advisory group is a deliberate recipe for confusion.

    Hope things calm down in the US, but suspect they won't.

    Mogg's stance on remote voting appears to be total nonsense. I'm against electronic voting as a general principle but as these votes are on the record anyway and given the current situation (and there must be many MPs in vulnerable groups, if only due to age) there's no good reason for a blanket ban on them continuing.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Nigelb said:
    It's another trick to avoid scrutiny, they're going to join the front end of the queue to the back end and just leave then going round and round in an enormous circle
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    The media has lost authority in Scotland, and is rapidly doing so in England too.

    As recently as the 1980s and 90s BBC Scotland, the Scotsman and the Herald were still widely respected. Nowadays almost nobody gives a fig what they pump out.

    This is a key weakness of the BritNat strategy: what are they going to do when folk stop obeying the state propaganda unit?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
    Agree, but when people like Halfon start complaining loudly, they just take some notice.

    I wonder, is he a natural Roundhead?
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    No, I think that by and large these have been peaceful demonstrators, righteously angry at yet another example of police brutality. FFS, this was an attempted arrest for passing a suspected counterfeit $20.

    Of course there are opportunists who exploit the demos as cover for looting, and political agitation, but that is more newsworthy for televised visuals.

    People have a need, and a Constitutional right, for public assembly, to raise their grievances.
    No doubt there's a lot of peaceful protestors around, but there's also an awful lot of violence. The difficulty is in sorting out the two groups, such as to allow the protestors on the streets but not the violent element. Governments generally tend to over-react to this sort of situation, which is likely what's going to end up happening in the USA.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
    Agree, but when people like Halfon start complaining loudly, they just take some notice.

    I wonder, is he a natural Roundhead?
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    No, I think that by and large these have been peaceful demonstrators, righteously angry at yet another example of police brutality. FFS, this was an attempted arrest for passing a suspected counterfeit $20.

    Of course there are opportunists who exploit the demos as cover for looting, and political agitation, but that is more newsworthy for televised visuals.

    People have a need, and a Constitutional right, for public assembly, to raise their grievances.
    No doubt there's a lot of peaceful protestors around, but there's also an awful lot of violence. The difficulty is in sorting out the two groups, such as to allow the protestors on the streets but not the violent element. Governments generally tend to over-react to this sort of situation, which is likely what's going to end up happening in the USA.
    A serious problem in the US is the (non) training of the police in de-excalation.

    When combined with the "force protection" mentality - the belief that every single person *may* be a Die Hard style terrorist and that the only possible response is to go first....

    Add some racism into the pot, stir.....

    It can be done differently - https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/31/us/flint-michigan-protest-police-trnd/index.html
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    Both faced the same key challenge. Nicola Sturgeon fathomed that principles weren’t worth anything unless they cost you something. Boris Johnson did not. And he even had her example to follow.
    Boris, of course, started off with the disadvantage that he had no principles to which to stick.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    To be honest if people are protesting against police violence then I don't think more police violence is the correct move to make them stop.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    I understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    Politics is, unfortunately, 90% trappings and 10% substance.

    So, even if the substantive differences are small (but arguably important), they are vastly outweighed by the zeitgeist.

    BoZo is a diminished, untrustworthy and confused dud.
    Sturgeon is a reasonable, pleasant and competent leader.

    In the harsh world of politics, that is enough.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    .

    .
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
    Indeed, which is why it's even more important to conduct the enquiry in this way.

    It's not like the Iraq war, for example, which was an explicit government policy, it's dealing with a crisis that hit the country domestically, so the focus needs to be much less political and more looking towards managing the next similar crisis.
    Or perhaps the next dissimilar crisis.
    One handicap this time round was the way we stuck rigidly to the influenza plan; the next zero day virus will likely be different again.

    Broad capabilities of public health infrastructure, and biomedical production capacity to go alongside our existing strong research capability are a couple of items on the list.

    A couple of ministers in government who have some kind of clue about this stuff might also be a plus....
    Yes, looking from afar it appears the UK govt took too long to adapt the existing pandemic plan to the specifics of this disease.

    The obvious failings to me are:

    1. Medical equipment shortages. The planning didn't cover a collapse of international supply chains for low-level equipment such as PPE, so we need to ensure they can be supplied domestically in a future crisis, with enough raw materials stored and manufacturers retained. High-tech medical equipment worked well, with engineering companies such as the F1 teams quickly prototyping mass-producible ventilators. We need to look at other equipment types that might be needed for a future pandemic, and secure design and manufacturing capability for these ahead of time.

    2. Testing. Took way too long to ramp up testing volumes, on the face of it due to a centralised approach by PHE rather than using private and university resources. Required the Health Secretary's April 100k target to wake everyone up, this should have been done in March.

    3. Quarantining of people. Issue with this specific disease of infectious yet asymptomatic carriers. Other countries have commandeered hotels for positively-tested people who aren't sick, often on a non-voluntary basis. Huge problems with community transmissions, especially within households, care homes and HMOs. Quarantine of UK arrivals should have been done earlier and continue for the summer, over objections of holiday industry and press, with only limited exceptions for business travel that involve lots of testing. Such quarantine needs to be at dedicated facilities and charged back to the individual, not done at home.
    A good summary.

    On 1 I think every big country has struggled. Over a 100 year run I am not convinced having capability that you only use in a pandemic is necessarily correct. It should be looked at, but it may still be better to just rely on the international market.

    On 3 I agree wholly with the first part - requisitioning hotels seems completely obvious, I expected it to happen in the first week. The second bit is either hindsight bias or would have been ineffective. UK arrivals dropped 99% during lockdown and we have had above average rates of infection so quarantining then would have made no difference. Starting early February would have worked but no-one has been able to explain the basis for doing that for this virus but not having done it for MERs, SARs, Ebola, Zeka etc.

    4 should be communication which started well but has collapsed into a lack of trust and confidence.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.

    I agree, but I can see a couple of reasons why they would have thought about it - given the reluctance expressed by parents and teachers to reopen schools showing a willingness to share in the risk and leading by example is not a bad instinct, and the desire to have his backbenchers supporting Johnson is understandable, if cynical.

    However, given the effect on MPs who are shielding for health reasons, and the Speaker's refusal to allow more MPs into the chamber it's pig-headed stubbornness to proceed.

    Will there be pairing on the vote today, so that those MPs unable or unwilling to attend due to health reasons can be paired with a government loyalist?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.

    It’s a combination of wanting to show everyone else that people are going back to work, and many technical issues with the remote voting system they were using.

    IMO it would be easier to either expand proxy voting, such that a few whips can vote on behalf of most of their party, or to expand the number of voting lobbies.

    That said, the idea of the 800m queue is silly, just because people are keeping further apart doesn’t massively slow them down.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    edited June 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
    Agree, but when people like Halfon start complaining loudly, they just take some notice.

    I wonder, is he a natural Roundhead?
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    No, I think that by and large these have been peaceful demonstrators, righteously angry at yet another example of police brutality. FFS, this was an attempted arrest for passing a suspected counterfeit $20.

    Of course there are opportunists who exploit the demos as cover for looting, and political agitation, but that is more newsworthy for televised visuals.

    People have a need, and a Constitutional right, for public assembly, to raise their grievances.
    No doubt there's a lot of peaceful protestors around, but there's also an awful lot of violence. The difficulty is in sorting out the two groups, such as to allow the protestors on the streets but not the violent element. Governments generally tend to over-react to this sort of situation, which is likely what's going to end up happening in the USA.
    A serious problem in the US is the (non) training of the police in de-excalation.

    When combined with the "force protection" mentality - the belief that every single person *may* be a Die Hard style terrorist and that the only possible response is to go first....

    Add some racism into the pot, stir.....

    It can be done differently - https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/31/us/flint-michigan-protest-police-trnd/index.html
    I have seen 3 examples of police/national guard addressing the crowd in a way that makes one proud. Shows true bravery and leadership. If Trump focused on the problem that way it would make a huge difference.

    There is no way he could enter the crowd, but he could meet with community leaders in a public forum. Make a speech in support of civil rights etc. He needs to work on splitting out the rioters from the protesters and not inflame protesters into reacting with violence.

    He is useless and is shamed by those law enforcement officers who successfully and bravely control a crowd without violence.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Gillette did very well out of it though.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:

    GB adults: - ”Which country do you think has handled the coronavirus outbreak better between England and Scotland?“

    England 14%
    Scotland 44%

    They have both handled it the same 25%
    Don’t know 17%

    (YouGov surveyed 2883 GB adults
    Conducted May 29, 2020)

    ... and the Scottish respondents were even clearer:

    England 7%
    Scotland 68%

    They have both handled it the same 17%
    Don’t know 8%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2020/05/29/9742c/2

    All the media's fault apparently: on the one hand asking our wonderful HMG stupid questions which makes them look bad, on the other hand giving wee Jimmy Krankie Mcnippyface an easy ride.

    Two electorates brainwashed in entirely different directions.
    To be honest I don't understand why Nicola is getting such great ratings compared to Boris.

    She hasn't done anything substantially different policy wise. She's just presented it better.
    Though there are limits to how much we will actually behave like adults, most of us like and are flattered by being treated as such. Also the sincerity, walk-the-walk thing: CMO breaks lockdown, gone within a day, chief adviser breaks quarantine, BJ finally finds a ditch to die in.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    I cannot see this government ordering an enquiry into its actions, and it would be pretty pointless for the next government. The search for blame is a natural instinct, but not a particularly productive one, as the partisans on either side have drawn their conclusions already, and just want a rubber stamp to confirm them.

    The time would be better spent on planning to cope with an endemic virus, as it looks that we will have that for the summer.

    The frame of an enquiry should be more like a transport accident investigation, looking closely at everything that led up to the crisis, and especially noting the opportunities where a different decision would have materially changed the outcome.

    It should include everyone who was involved in both the key decisions and the day-to-day management, from the Prime Minister to the most junior advisor, reflecting back on how things were managed and why decisions were made the way they were, and where with the benefit of hindsight mistakes were made.

    If it's set up with the idea that people are going to be 'blamed', then it can only have negative effects on a future incident, with everyone involved way more interested in covering their own arses than actually addressing the problem. There's already a reasonable amount of evidence that this was to some extent an issue with this pandemic, especially within the senior ranks of the civil service and the quangos.

    That's not what the politicians nor the media want from an enquiry, but the focus needs to be on learning from the crisis - doubly so when there could be a second wave coming down the line.
    Other than in the transport industry Britain doesn't do those though, does it?

    As in 'Albert and the Lion' 'Somebody's got to be summonsed"! Although the magistrate in the case was very sensible.
    Indeed, which is why it's even more important to conduct the enquiry in this way.

    It's not like the Iraq war, for example, which was an explicit government policy, it's dealing with a crisis that hit the country domestically, so the focus needs to be much less political and more looking towards managing the next similar crisis.
    Agreed; it's been a major failing in the NHS, and medicine is somewhere where things can go wrong without anyone being much, if at all, 'at fault'.

    It stems, I suggest, from our confrontational legal system. At least in part.
    One thing to watch for in the enquiries into COVID19 -

    1) It is difficult to say who made that decision
    2) It is covered by ministerial responsibility
    3) etc


  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Their hasnt been a government for quite some time with such a cavalier attitude to parliamentary democracy.
    Agree, but when people like Halfon start complaining loudly, they just take some notice.

    I wonder, is he a natural Roundhead?
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    One thing the government should plan for is some similar riots here. Such hot weather, money getting tight, boredom and people losing jobs is a recipe for such things. All it takes is the right spark.

    Yes, it's surprising we haven't seen similar troubles in many other places, as unemployment rises and we move into the summer.

    Not much of a surprise that it eventually kicked off in the USA though, it's been bubbling under for quite a while, and as you say only needs one spark. Most of the people now on the streets clearly aren't the genuine protestors, but a variety of organised extremist groups.
    No, I think that by and large these have been peaceful demonstrators, righteously angry at yet another example of police brutality. FFS, this was an attempted arrest for passing a suspected counterfeit $20.

    Of course there are opportunists who exploit the demos as cover for looting, and political agitation, but that is more newsworthy for televised visuals.

    People have a need, and a Constitutional right, for public assembly, to raise their grievances.
    No doubt there's a lot of peaceful protestors around, but there's also an awful lot of violence. The difficulty is in sorting out the two groups, such as to allow the protestors on the streets but not the violent element. Governments generally tend to over-react to this sort of situation, which is likely what's going to end up happening in the USA.
    A serious problem in the US is the (non) training of the police in de-excalation.

    When combined with the "force protection" mentality - the belief that every single person *may* be a Die Hard style terrorist and that the only possible response is to go first....

    Add some racism into the pot, stir.....

    It can be done differently - https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/31/us/flint-michigan-protest-police-trnd/index.html
    I have seen 3 examples of police/national guard addressing the crowd in a way that makes one proud. Shows true bravery and leadership. If Trump focused on the problem that way it would make a huge difference.

    There is no way he could enter the crowd, but he could meet with community leaders in a public forum. Make a speech in support of civil rights etc. He needs to work on splitting out the rioters from the protesters and not inflame protesters into reacting with violence.

    He is useless and is shamed by those law enforcement officers who successfully and bravely control a crowd without violence.
    Donald Trump is a white nationalist leader. Why would he do such things? He doesn’t believe in them and he doesn’t get votes from the people who believe in such things.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    What a bunch of burkhas.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Two turds with Scottish roots. A badge of shame.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Jacob Rees Mogg couldn’t be that crazy, surely?

    *Thinks*

    Sorry, your venerable cheerful majesty, that doesn’t work.
    If I'd put 'Even' before the word 'Jacob' would that have worked better?
    *thinks hard*

    Still no, I'm afraid.

    Remember, this is the man who did this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/29/jacob-rees-mogg-language-rules
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    I can't understand and don't agree with the governments desire to end work from home for Parliament. It's ridiculous.

    Its desperation. Shagger needs a braying mob behind him to be able to bluster his way through. SKS keeps tearing him apart with brutal dispatch box cross-examinations and follow-up statements and pressure. Jacob Lounge-Lizard hopes that the mob will be able to roar Shagger into calling SKS the establishment or something.

    As a tweet said upthread, they think they are acting from a position of strength, when all can see weakness
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Think they might need an earlier curfew....

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1267621792333643778?s=19

    This will only stop when they start shooting the looters. Which they will
    Surprised they have not so far. Need to state anyone on street after curfew will be shot , stop pussyfooting about.
    We tried that in Basra. At one point we were shooting anyone with a beard (so males 10 and over, females 50 and over) who was on the street after the dusk call to prayer. To the great surprise of the self styled counter-insurgency experts of the British Army this did not calm the city.
    Indeed.

    Experience tells us that extrajudicial military execution of civilians never works out well. The Gàidhealtachd is still trying to recover from the horrific events 1746-48 at the hands of the king’s son Prince William, Duke of Cumberland. Events which resulted in his Tory opponents naming him Butcher Cumberland.
    The wholesale sell-out of their leaders resulting in the Highland Clearances didn't help the recovery, either.
    Why did it not work out well? It silenced the Scots and stopped them invading England
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:
    I thought that remote procedural rules had lapsed, deliberately, so its not about voting to end them as needing to vote in an unusual way on how to vote in future?

    It has not been well handled.
This discussion has been closed.